The Ringer NBA Show - Pascal Siakam to the Pacers Trade Reaction. Plus, Round 1 of Embiid vs. Jokic, and Chet: Live and in Color. | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos join to cover the Raptors-Pacers trade that sent Pascal Siakam to the Pacers in return for three first-round picks and Bruce Brown. They break down Siakam’s fit with the Pacers, evaluate where they stack up in the East pecking order, and debate whether the Raptors got a big enough return (2:50). Later, they cover last night’s thrilling Thunder-Clippers game (with Wos in attendance) and highlight the impressive performances from both teams (26:01). Then, they stop and marvel at Joel Embiid’s dominance and share their big-picture takeaways on the 76ers' future (54:44). Buy tickets for the live show in Indianapolis here!  The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Jack Sanders Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did Don Draper really buy the world of Coke? Did Tony Soprano really die? Or just order more onion rings? Were those guys really in hell the whole time, or was that just the audience? The finales of our favorite shows can make us argue, make us cry, and make us crazy. From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Andy Greenwald, and this is Stick the Landing, a new podcast where we'll be telling the story of modern TV backwards, one fade out at a time. Each episode, a guest and I will choose a celebrated series from history, from the 70s to

the streaming era and beyond and do a deep dive on its very last episode. Was it all a dream? Did it turn into a nightmare? And most importantly, what can we learn about tomorrow's new shows from the way yesterday's ended? TV is a journey. I hope you'll enjoy this podcast about the destination. Starting January 17th, find Stick the Landing on Wednesdays on the prestige TV feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Uh, yay! I am Justin Barrier. me as always. Rob Mahoney, Big Waz.

We're trying things here, Rob. Yeah, in the spirit of a postgame interview, Justin, can you walk me through your thinking there? Like, what was going through your head? You know, I listen to these podcasts. They all have these, like, distinct openings that everyone could expect and anticipate. And I'm like, we need something.

I'm not sure we found it yet, but we need something. You don't think it's you doing your own crowd noise? It could be. I'm actually prepping for the live show. That's what I'm doing. That's when the roar of the crowd will just envelop us. Speaking of distinct podcast introductions, welcome to the Low Post. Saw Zach L.A. Klipper's game yesterday.

He gave our show a lot of props. He said he likes our show. He listens to it all the time. So big shout out to one of the gods of the game, Zach Lowe, who's a group chat fan, apparently. Yeah, I appreciate it, Zach. put it on the cover, you know? We'll put it on the little art for the podcast.

We need more blurbs around here. Good podcast. Pretty good content. Yeah. Well, speaking about the live show a few minutes ago, hi-fiindy.com, make sure you're still getting those tickets, All-Star Saturday night,

your boys on this podcast, Isaiah will be there, all the greats, and Jake Hallman will be joining us. So make sure you're getting those tickets. All right. we get into Waz's hot night at the Clippers game, we have for the second week in a row an interruption to this podcast, which means Rob, will you please hit the siren?

Beautiful, beautiful as always. We got a trade that we have kind of been monitoring after last night's reports. We're kind of indicating that this might be close, but we indeed have the Pascal Ciacom trade that honestly we have been anticipating for probably this entire NBA season. He goes to the Indian of Pacers joins forces with Tyrese Halliburton to score a ton of points. In return, the Pacers are sending Bruce Brown Jr., Jordan Noirah, and three first round picks to the Toronto Raptors. New Orleans also jumps in this deal.

They're sending Cairo Lewis to the Raptors. Indy gets a second round pick as a result of the Dan. there. Rob, first thoughts here. What do you think about the deal? I think my first thought is just that Indy finally pulled the trigger on a deal we've been expecting, not just this season, as you said, Justin, but really for multiple years now in terms of them making a deal that would put them over the top that would round out their roster. When I went to spend some time with the Pacers in preseason to write that Halliburton story, I've written a lot of those preseason stories before. This was the first time a team was just blatantly open about the fact that they didn't have enough yet,

that they weren't ready yet, that they were young, that they had a lot of room to grow, but there was so, like, there was such a clear need at the four, and no one was shying away from that. And so to see them fulfill it with the player who has always made a ton of sense for them and will now make them, you know, 15 to 20 percent spicier, that's a win for all of us, I think. Yeah, this is one of those deals where, you know, Rob, loves the trade machine, as you guys all know. But this Siakam deal...

I cannot abide this turn to my personal brand was. I look in the mirror and I hate what I've become. But this has been a trade machine match made in heaven for at least like a year and a half now, where people have been shoehorning Seacom to Indy. Like, this is the match made in heaven. This is the destination that made the most sense when you talk about team and where they are in their building right now,

what they're trying to build towards the kind of guy who fits with their youth, their style, who's complimentary to the most important guy on the team, which is Halliburton. This was just such the obvious. Everybody has made this deal. And so that it actually came to fruition is really cool to see. And obviously, we can't wait to see how it looks on the court. because Indiana was already in my personal top five league pass rankings before this deal, and they're only going to shoot up after it, because I think they're going to continue to play

an excited brand of ball. And I want people to understand that Pascal Seaccombe is a legitimate all-star player, a legitimate winner, man. This guy does all of the small things, and he does stuff that a lot of guys can't do. He gets to the basket with reckless abandon. He will get to the free throw line. He has positional versatility on defense and offense. He shoots it.

He runs in transition. Like he does, he rebounds it. Like this guy, he can actually spark the break off of a rebound. Like this guy, there's so many things. He's going to be a menace in a dribble handoff game. Like, he is such a high quality player. And I get it. He's in Toronto.

They don't get the most attention as far as media attention. and stuff like that. I guess the GM does anyway, but they don't get that much attention. So, like, a lot of people aren't in tune with what Seacom brings to the table. But this guy is going to be an immediate upgrade. This is not going to be a neutral add to the situation.

The Pacers just got much better today. And their fans, the players in that organization, the coaches should all be excited for it. Yeah, credit the Pacers for not waiting on this because we had seen leading up. to this some some dance happening about siakum not wanting to sign with other teams because he's a free agent over the off season he had some leverage in these negotiations the kings first and foremost were reported to be suitors but he reportedly didn't want to resign there the fit though

for the pacers just seem so perfect because he counterbalances everything that they need while still fitting into what they do so well he can run but he's going to give you the defensive and the physicality i think they've lacked this season rob and so So you got to give it to the pacer's for, we could talk about what they paid for it, but it seems like they're not going to wait because they recognize how ready to run Halliburton is right now. Well, when he gets back from injury, but when he's healthy, they are ready to be kind of interesting in this Eastern Conference race. Well, that's worth noting off the top. We're going to have to wait a minute to see Tyrese Halliburton and Pascal Seacom together at the very least.

Halliburton's still out with that hamstring strain. he's due to be re-evaluated in a week. We'll see. You know, soft tissue injuries can linger for sure. It could be longer than that. Regardless, having Pascal Seaka makes that proposition easier. He's going to be thrown into the deep end in terms of being on a new team with new terminology, new teammates, new system. But a player who's that talented, a guy who can legitimately, as you said, was, do a bit of everything.

That's something Indiana hasn't had. And it's something that's going to make them a lot more solvent until Tyrese gets back. And it's going to make them a lot more exciting when he finally does. because if you ran down the list of what the pacer's needed at the four in terms of size, a quality defender, a secondary creator, a guy who can play with pace, a guy who's versatile enough to fit what they do offensively, that list of forwards is much, much smaller than you think. And Pascal Seaccom is usually at the very top of it in terms of the guys who fit all those

criteria and could be potentially getable and are immensely talented. So just really a perfect fit for Indiana's style, really a perfect fit for their culture. And as far as veteran guys go, a player who hasn't yet turned 30, has a lot of NBA experience and NBA Miles, but is in the right bracket age-wise for what they want to do and be over these next couple seasons. Well, we should talk about that wise, because that's one of, if there is like a concert trolley aspect to this, is that Siakam is getting older in age, and he's also played a lot of hard minutes under Nick Nurse, who doesn't really pay much attention to people's knees. I assume considering that Siakum reportedly

Woch has a report that he is eager to work out a deal with the Pacers so he'll probably have five years tacked on to that. That's 30 to 35 basically. He's got a deal in hand with the Pacers. Do you have any concerns that this young, fun, running team is going to add someone who not on the back end of his career now, but certainly isn't going to get better from here? No, I have no concerns because I listen to Kenny Rogers.

I'm sorry, you're not the Lakers, you're not the heat, you're not some marketing franchise that Luca Donchich or some supernova talent is going to force his way to your team. In order for you to acquire your talent, you have to do it in ways that aren't always perfect, crystal clear, you know, easy to sell, easy to ingest deals. Sometimes you got to take a risk. You got to put your chips in.

the table, Justin. And so, no, I don't have a concern. This is the game. You have to be in it to win it. If you want to be on the sideline and say, oh, I want to just hang out until the perfect move comes around and the perfect player at the perfect age, at the perfect price, at the perfect time. Like, you can do that, but you're not going to be in the game in the meantime. And so to me- Sounds like my dating life. We got to get you on riot, brother. But in the meantime, you know, I think they're doing the right thing for the type of franchise that they have. Like, this guy, again, he is a legitimate NBA All-Star caliber player at a premium position. You feel me?

Like, Center, let's face it. You know, the Clippers are playing Daniel Tees at Center Big Minutes and Mason Plumley off the streets. They got, they got- Daniel Tease? Oh, is it Tice? Oh, sorry. Was, come on. That's enough.

My bad. My bad. That's a world champion you're talking about right there. Oh, okay. My fault. But what I'm saying is that this is a position that's hard to fill. You know, the kind of guy that gets you rebounds and can still shoot it and can guard on the perimeter and can do some postwork and is a great help defender.

Like, you can't, these guys don't grow on trees, man. And so, yes, I understand the idea five years you're paying him into his mid-30s. don't matter. This guy is high, high quality. To get them in your building is a big deal. And so, yeah, I'm a big fan of this. The Pacers also wouldn't be here. And this trade wouldn't be happening if they hadn't put themselves in a position to be an attractive destination.

I think it's telling that there's reporting connecting Syracum to other teams. He said no, no thanks. That's not a long-term fit for me. But Indiana, with what they've proven, with what Tyrese Halliburton has proven, with what this offense has proven, that's something that other players can look at and say, I want to be a part of it. And Pascal Seacom literally just did.

One thing I want to push back on Justin is the idea that because of his age, Seacom can't get better. He's such a great player development success story. I don't want to count that out. I don't want to rule out the fact that he can get better. Yes, there are certain athletic metrics from which it's only going to be downhill

once you get kind of into your 30s. But he's a guy who has always worked hard, who has always found ways to add to his game. And I feel like he's always kind of refined the way he reads it. It's not just adding to your skill set, but adding to your understanding of what you do. Yes, and he's one of my favorite players in the league for that exact reasons, probably the greatest player development success story in recent history, if we want to really like put a fine point on it, him or Kauai. There's like guys who came

from nothing, Siakum, who was a hustle big defender that they were trying on LeBron and some of those LeBronto series to now be coming an all-star. And let's be honest, the all-star, our qualifications often require lots of points and numbers, and he's definitely going to be getting a lot of those playing next to Tyrese Halliborne in that system. And I got to say, like, in terms of price paid here, there really isn't much further. Now, we discussed how Seacom is going to be a free agent, so there was some leverage there. You really are kind of paying just to get ahead of the open market. And so these deals typically don't give you a lot. But Bruce Brown on a contract where he has a very large team option for next year.

So he's a functionally expiring contract. Jordan Noirah probably just there to make a math work or a young guy to be interested in. Well, as far as Bruce Brown's contract, not only is it functionally expiring if you want it to be, but it's functionally not if you don't want it to be. Because that's a difference. You know, Buddy Heald could have been involved in this trade instead, a true expiring contract. But the Raptor is getting Bruce Brown where now if they need to make another trade with Bruce Brown's contract, they could also do that. Right. If you want to bring him to a

rodeo, he'll definitely do that with you next year. He's going to bring you to the rodeo. So there are three first round picks going back to Toronto in this deal. The reporting as we're recording this coming in, that it's a 2024 first from Indiana. We expect that to be in the 20s, probably maybe getting lower with Seacomender and the Pacer's getting better. Another first, which is going, has to change hands. four times, has to go through four different teams before it ultimately gets to the Raptors. So who knows where this pick is going to land there? And then a 2026 from the Raptors.

We don't know the protection on that one. But we assume if everybody's healthy and producing like we expect, that's probably going to be in the same range there. Interesting assets was, but a different approach in the Raptors took with the Knicks, getting birds in the hand, getting young players who they can kind of move forward with, you're going the picks route. Do you like this better or worse in terms of just like the asset play for Toronto?

I don't know that the Pacers necessarily had the young guys to facilitate something like the Knicks. I guess you could say Mathurin. Yeah. Mathurst Walker. Yeah, those would be the only guys. But it's not the same because Mathron has way more cost control left than IQ does, right?

And, you know, obviously RJ has been paid already. And so I think the problem, the young guys, in the Pacer's bucket they're just at different stages than what the NICs could offer. So I'm not surprised necessarily there and you know

the pigs are what they are like the guy was going to be a free agent and there was nothing they could do about that. So it's nice that unlike Kyle, unlike you know, unlike Fred Van Vleet, they

actually face the music and got something in return for guys who were out the door. There are also some diminishing returns to when you do a bunch of different versions of the same trade, whether it's getting all picks or all young players who need minutes and opportunities. You kind of have to split the difference a little bit, and Toronto is going to have to do that, right? If you make a trade for young players, you're doing it at the expense of the young players you already have, especially when everything the Raptors are doing right now is to highlight and facilitate the growth of Scotty Barnes and the kind of team that can be built around him.

Did Toronto or sorry, did Indiana have the kind of young talent that could contribute to that? I don't think Ben Matherin or Jaris Walker further respective talents really necessarily fit in that style. Yeah. Walker would have been the interesting one just because I don't see a clear path for him

to playing time on this team. He's getting in there. He's getting in there now and then, but like the Pacers also retain Obie Toppin in this deal. Maybe they just, just don't resign him over the offseason, I believe he's headed toward restricted free agency this summer.

He's an interesting one, if only because he was such a high picker. I think he was eighth overall. So that would have been interesting, but you're right. There's only so many young guys you can cram into the Raptor system, and there's only so many young guys you can cram around Scotty Barnes because he needs certain type of players.

Don't tell the pistons that you can never have enough young guys. It's true, but I think like the Knicks package, there is sort of a prove-it element to this. from Maasai's point of view where it's like, well, you targeted quickly. Let's see him play as a starter around Scotty Barnes in this new, wonderful role that you've carved out for him. In the same way, these picks that are probably going to end up in the 20s, that is kind of how they built the title team originally, with Siakum, for instance, getting picked, what, 27th

overall, finding Fred Van Vleet out of nothing. So let's see Maasai be able to kind of work some of the same magic that got them there to the first place. It is kind of a disappointing return, we should mention, considering the wild fantasies we had for OG and Anobi going for 90 first round picks and, like, couldn't trade Scotty Barnes for Kevin Durant and all this other stuff, but they're clearly resetting around Scotty. And so there's a path forward here. Like, there's a clear vision to this team that wasn't before. And for that, I think it's an addition by subtraction. And we've seen from some recent deals, I think in particular the James Harden trade to and from the Clippers, that sometimes it's not always about

the return. It's about that clarity of vision. It's about what it does for your team. It's about the journey. In this case, about the journey. I don't want to zoom out too far on Toronto, though, because in terms of what they're actually getting back right now, Bruce Brown is a nice player for them and a cutter who makes sense playing off of someone like Scotty Barnes. Jordan Warro was not of use to the Pacers, but to a team that categorically cannot shoot, much more interesting. And I think Jordan War could actually get some rotation minutes for Toronto. So there's something here in the meantime. Obviously, we're going to have conversations about the picks and what those will, like what the ultimate benefit of those will be. But in the interim,

I think there's a lot to watch in Toronto. I think there's a lot of interesting guys who are in bigger roles than they've ever been, who are going to have to do more than they've ever done before. I just can't say when we do take that zoomed-out perspective, the end result of the Siakum-Annaobi era of Raptors history went out with a bang. Well, let's talk about the big picture here, because now the Pacers look pretty interesting in an Eastern Conference race that has suddenly gotten pretty thick, because for a while we were expecting the Celtics,

the Bucks, and the Sixers to kind of duke it out there for Eastern Conference supremacy. I think we still put them probably in a tier of their own. But the heat quietly getting very interesting as they play through Jimmy Butler's injuries and yet still find themselves at fifth. The calves are kind of one of the hottest teams in the NBA right now. Winners are five in the row. They've seemed to buoyed themselves despite not having them immobly in the lineup. The Pacers now six are super interesting if Halliburton can come back and be healthy within the next week or two. The Knicks, obviously, one of the most fascinating teams with OGG Ananovic.

be there, one of my favorite league pass teams. So does this change, was your outlook on the Eastern Conference at all? Do you see the Pacers maybe even vaulting the heat or the calves, at least in the regular season? I think the Pacers are on the level of the Cavs and the Knicks, for sure. I think the heat are just too much championship equity for me to vault those guys above them. I think the Heat Sixers are on a tier below.

the Celtics and the Bucks, but I think Indy is below them, right? I think they're with the Knicks and, you know, as far as if they get in a series with any of the top teams, it's going to, I think they'll give them

a really good series, but it'd be hard for me to envision them actually upsetting the bucks, even though they've kicked their asses up and down the floor this whole season. I was about to say, that's kind of the one serious team that might have to look at this trade and think, this is not great for us, is the Milwaukee Bucks. The Celtics, they've proven enough. And I think in some of those matchups in particular,

they've proven enough. But Milwaukee and Indiana have been a fun watch, a competitive watch all season. And now you're adding Pascal Seacom to that, a guy who could be a meaningful difference maker for this team on defense, a guy who could spend at least sometime guarding Janus over the course of a series

and spread out that responsibility. That's a real change. what do you think about the defense now that Siakum is going to be in there now because we had a few weeks ago the Rick Carlisle settling all family business let's just play the guys that bust their ass and that's why you see Neismith and whatnot in that starting lineup there's like a siacum turner knee smith haliburton etc does that is that like a legitimate defense in order to carry them if not even into like the second round maybe they're they can get into the mix for like a seven game, six games series in that second round? Yeah, they were already crawling up defensively over the last couple weeks. You know, just getting a little more solvent, a little more responsible, a little more responsive, frankly, to some of the rotations and things like that. But this sort of personnel shift changes things pretty significantly.

Not because Bruce Brown's a bad defender, but because Indiana needed size and they needed resistance and they needed someone in the lane who could help protect things. And there's kind of a cascading effect. right? It's not like Miles Turner's a good rim protector, but Indiana was a disastrous defense. And so if you give him a little more support, if you give a little more resistance on the perimeter and in rotation, then Miles Turner's going to be more impactful, then Aaron Neesmith's going to be more impactful, then Andrew Nemhardt's going to be more impactful. The defenders that Indiana does have are going to be better for it. They still don't have clearly a defensive player of the year type candidate and all defense type candidate. They have good defenders. And if they can get their defense to eat, not bad or even just regular bad, they're going to be a really tough matchup for lots of different teams because of what they can do offensively.

The East looks mighty interesting. For a while, it seemed like the West was the bloodbath and it still will be, but like East goes seven, eight deep. We didn't even talk about the magic, who are now eighth in the standings there. If I were to power rank the East teams,

I would still have the Celtics, Bucks, Sixers, who we'll talk about later, then I'd probably have the heat. Yeah. That's fair. But then it's like Pacer's Knicks. The Knicks are getting, they're pretty confident. They're going to get Mitch back.

So long as Jalen Brunson is healthy, like, they're going to be tough. They are going to be hell to deal with when they bring their full complement of defense to bear. You know, so, yeah, I mean, again, I think the Pacers, nobody's. is nobody slouch. They've taken a step forward. Halliburton, you know, around the playing was like, y'all, I've never been in a, this is the closest I've ever come to an NBA playoff game or atmosphere, right?

And so, you know, and the same can be set for a lot of the guys on that roster. And so, you know, it'll be fun. Yeah, I would love to see them play a team like the Knicks. We saw what happened with Cleveland last season. The Knicks are the perfect proven the playoffs type of podcast. like all your cute shit does it really work in a seven game series like nailed down kind of setting and indiana is going to have to prove some things in a lot of those sorts of matchups both over the back half of the regular season and then going into those actual playoff scenarios prove it in the playing then prove it in the playoffs and then prove it in then prove it with pascal siacum then prove it in the second round right then prove it when tyreys halberton gets back they got a lot of proving to do but didn't prove it again next year again of course course. Because if you only do it one year, it's a fluke,

everybody tells me. Come on now. It's true. All right, let's talk about Waz's night at the crypt. We should actually start there, Waz, because you saw the Mighty Thunder in person last night. How was the experience of seeing Clippers Thunder? It was, man, it was really kind of quite a contrast in styles, honestly. the Clippers who basically since they signed Paul George

or traded for Paul George and signed Kauai Leonard in the summer of 2019, I think the thesis of the team was that we're just going to be the biggest wing group the league has ever seen and most teams just cannot compete with that size at those positions and take it from there, right? We would create our advantages from that type of size advantage and, you know, one-on-one creation. from Kauai Elite and Paul George

just being able to plug all kinds of holes on both ends of the floor, right? And I think there's still a version of that but James Hardin just adds just a different dynamic with what he's doing in pick and roll and their ability to generate easy baskets

when teams try to cover that pick and roll conventionally just adds a different layer to what's always been there from 2019. And then, you know, Oklahoma City, man, the shooting last night was insane. Lou Dort and Isaiah Joe splashing five threes a pop was ridiculous. I don't think we've said the name Isaiah Joe

enough on this podcast. He's been just balling out all season, been so, so good for the Thunder. Again, one of these guys who's like a plus minus monster, one of their most important shooters, just a really key piece of their rotation this year. Yeah, he's a plus shooter. Where did you go?

Okay, no. Where did you come from? Isaiah Joe. Nope, nope, nope, nope. Here we go. And he's no slouch with the ball in his hands either, which I was pleasantly surprised to see last night. But, you know, obviously Jalen Williams and Shea Gilgis Alexander,

I thought they were excellent last night. Like, they could just beat their matchup consistently. Jalen Williams, man, he is so smooth. He makes it look so effortless. He knows exactly where he would. wants to go once he gets the ball. There's no like indecision there. He's a quick decision maker, which I think is incredible for a year two guy.

He especially loved those Hardin matchups. Oh, my lord. Did he fish fry James Hardin off the bounce like five, seven times yesterday? It was just cool to see the Clippers. Again, their size was just so apparent on the wings. Because even Shea, like, as great as he is, and he fucking competing. He competes, too. He competes on defense. It's just, Kauai is just, he's so goddamn strong. And Paul George is towering over their wings, bigger than their wings. I thought that was the main

difference for me. And what, if I could be concerned troly about the coolest freaking story in the NBA, they are a slight team at every position. They don't bring size to any position, right? They don't bring elite physicality to any position. That's a concern. But, man, they went toe-to-to-toe with the Clippers last night. And it was one of my favorite regular season experiences of my life, honestly. I felt like it was one of those games that was impressive for both sides in that way was, right? The Thunder going toe to toe with a veteran team that's been playing really hot basketball,

really successful basketball lately. And we see a little bit of that differential in some of the experience level, in some of the size you're talking about. In particular, Dailin Williams was super impressive. but there are levels to secondary scores. And when your secondary score is Jalen Williams, he's going to go off, he's going to do well, he's so shifty.

It's genuinely crazy that he is this good of a one-on-one score already. But then there's Paul George, who just completely took over the back half of this game in a way that Kauai didn't have to, that their other scores didn't have to, where they were short-handed, you know, they're out of Vita Zubats,

and that's worth kind of discussing in its own right separately. But they figured it out, and they still felt like the bigger team because of what guys like PG bring to the table. Hold on. We're burying the lead here. What's the lead?

You saw your hero in person. Oh, the Chetster. Man, Chad had a rough night. He could never get his rhythm. And, you know, it's crazy to say, but the bottom line is Plumley was just giving him trouble. Like, just very physical with him all game. And we know that's the guy's biggest weak point at the moment. And both the Clippers centers were giving him trouble, which is, I won't say

who I was sitting next to you at the game last night. We were just laughing at the idea that the Clippers have three big white guys at center. It's kind of cool, honestly. They just corner the market on cheap white centers. But no, but they were out physicaling, chat the whole game. got into foul trouble very early, and he could just never get his rhythm defensively. I thought he had a couple of nice plays off the bounce, which is like where he really impresses, honestly, in person is just the fluidity that, you know, they trap Shay on the

pick and roll, and so he gets that sort of, you know, four on three mini fast break in the half court, and he makes two dribbles and makes the correct read gets a guy for a layup. He gets the ball on, you know, at the corner three. Defense is trying to close on his shot. He puts it on the rack, does a spin, gets filed. Like, his fluidity with the dribble is incredible to see up close. But, yeah, just the physicality of the game never allowed him to get into any type of rhythm. But, you know, I thought he still looked good, man.

Like, you know, again, this is his first season out here against the Clippers team that people, you know, I think rightfully think can have the chance. to make an NBA finals, you know, I thought he was still, I thought he still impressed, even on a night that wasn't his best night. Had some great blocks on the back end or even when he wasn't blocking, given some great contests, you know, because like there's times, we're so used to sometimes when a guy is able to break that first line of defense on the close out.

And it's Paul George. It's Kauai Leonard. It's like, all right, this is going to be a finish at the, The cup and then Chet comes out of nowhere and they have to change their shot and they have to change the direction. Terrence Mann is like doing up and under instead of just going straight up.

Like, you know, it's pretty impressive to see even when the shot's not falling, even when he's in foul trouble. Yeah, Justin, I feel like we're seeing the tests for Chet start to manifest, what he's going to have to prove to keep leveling up at the NBA, you know, as an NBA center and in particular against the best teams in the league. On the one hand, it's this kind of physicality.

from more traditional bics. That can give him problems inside sometimes, bump him off his spot, keep him off the boards in ways that Oklahoma City really needs him to be big and really needs him to be able to play big. So that's kind of one of his challenges. The other one is the teams that are going to match up with Chet

with wings and with long wings and are going to be able to chase him off the three-point line and hound him when he puts the ball on the floor, because I'm with you, Waz. His ability to drive and the quickness of his spin and the development of that move over the course, the season have been so critical for him, I'm very curious to see how he starts to respond to those challenges, not just over the course of the season, but really over the first couple years of his

career. Yeah, I think if you look back on the kind of advent, the first couple years of some of the unicorns we've seen in this league, the players they typically have the most difficulty with isn't really the bigs parked at the basket because they have such quickness and skill in order to maneuver around them. And probably the muscle memory after going against centers for so long, I mean, have played in the whack. I'm sure he was doing a lot of that in college, just like plotting big men, but it's usually the fire plug wings

and the strong, really, like, quick-footed wings and Kauai and Paul George and the Clippers have really built this entire little run around those type of players. And so it wasn't surprising for me to see him struggle a little bit against those type of guys. But similarly, I was also struck by the fact

that that big that the Clippers had on the court, Plumley or even Tice, was oftentimes guarding Josh Giddy. And I was starting to flash forward a little bit to kind of the obstacles the Thunder might have in the playoffs and something that we've all kind of talked about is like, what's the Achilles heel? Do they need to trade Giddy?

To me, I wonder if that was like a preview of the things to come. And now let me just say like, they're still great. It's still like, they're still way ahead of schedule. We could talk about Jaylon Williams and want to do that. But I think that's the thing that's going to start to creep up more and more

as we watch the Thunder of the season. Well, and that's where guys like Isaiah Joe are really important. Or whoever you want to dig into on the bench in a given night, you know, Kaysen Wallace can fill minutes. Kenridge Williams can fill minutes. But there's going to be matchups where Giddy is guarded that way. And I'm going to guess in the playoffs, he's guarded that way the vast majority of the time.

If not by a center, then certainly by someone who is backing way off him and just gumming things up and trying to take away so much of the Thunder's driving game. He's either going to hit or he's not. And defenses are either going to react to that or they're not. And that's going to kind of dictate whether he plays 19 minutes like he did in this game or if he plays 32 minutes in games that really matter. But the thing to me with Giddy is like even when, you know, he's not being forced to shoot and he's getting into his other bag and people, smart teams,

I think the clipper smartly last night was playing him playing the shot because they know he wants to pass. They know he wants to use his vision. A lot of it is off-balance floaters, seven-fifers. seven feet from the basket. Like, you know, against a smaller guy, you can get that off and it doesn't look terrible. But any like-sized or bigger player guarding that action is not,

or move, I should say, is not going to feel intimidated by it. Right. And, you know, we'll see. Another giddy note just being in the building, you know, there's a fucking awkwardness around the giddy thing because teams are booing him like he's LeBron in 2010 and 2011. 11 after decision. It's just,

it's just like the weirdest thing that's happening. What I will say about the clipper crowd, the loudest they got was to boo Josh Giddy. I wish they would do that for their own team. But, you know, such as like either the boojosh Giddy or for one free chicken was on the line.

But, you know, clips going to clip. Well, the wall isn't up yet. I don't know if you guys saw all the clips coming out about the Intuad Dome. The crazy fan wall,

which, you know, if we're being real, my L-AFC heads, they bit that idea from the L-AFC. That's fine. Did they? I don't care where they've been it from.

As long as it works. It's a good idea. But it's all good. If you go to an L-A-F-C game and you see that fan section with this freaking smoke coming out and fans waving and they don't sit down and they're cheering and screaming at people the whole game, it's pretty freaking cool, honestly. That's what we need, not just the wall of fans, but a full purge section. Like anything goes. Signs, smoke, firewomen. works, like things that create sound, whatever you want to bring in this section, you're allowed to do it.

So, Rob, they showed a commercial during the game about the fan wall at the new stadium. Terrence Mann was basically the, like, Morgan Freeman of the commercial, right? He was, like, sort of narrating and guiding the commercial, speaking to the fan. And one of the things is no other team gear allowed in this section. So, like, I think they're going to do a James Dolan facial recognition type of situation and bouncers at the door security. Like, no Charlotte Hornets gear in here, buddy. Sorry. If you have one positive tweet about the Oklahoma City Thunder on your account, they will not let you sit in the section. No, that's where I was starting getting a little worried, though, because there was like a thing where if you cheer louder or more consistently, they'll give you a discount.

And I'm like, how deep does this go? Is this just like a police state? I like, I guess anything you can get to get those fans going at the Intuit Dome. Also, I'm going to guess when it comes Lakers versus Clippers time, that rule is going to be a little difficult to enforce. I'm just throwing it out there now. Sure. But I do want to talk a little bit more about the thunder here. Jalen Williams had a pretty big night, 25 points, 7 assists.

He's someone that I've constantly been marveling at. because the Thunder once again have managed to homegrow a big three. And while they'll never and probably the NBA might never come close to homegrowing three MVPs on the same team like the Thunder used to have, the fact that they have a guy at all three levels now that I think they can count on. And I think Jalen Williams has clearly solidified himself as the third guy in this big three is remarkable. I can't think of another team who's even gotten to this level.

let alone the KD Russ Hardin level. And I was thinking back on it, where would Jalen Williams go on a 2022 redraft? So let's just stop and pause and say they got both Chet and Jalen Williams in the same draft. Also, it was Mon Jang, who maybe, who knows. But I think Chet and Paolo go one and two again, right? Yeah. In some order?

In some order, yeah. I might go chat first. Obviously, Powell's been great lately. I think Paulo would still go first for a lot of teams. And I think I would be tempted in that direction just because I feel more confident about him as a number one option. And I think Chet is amazing

and it's going to be a really good player for a really long time. But especially for a team in Orlando's position, I think Paulo was the right call. Yeah, obviously y'all know where I'm at on the Chet thing, but my rationale over Paulo, although I think Paolo will always be a better offensive weapon. I don't think Paolo will ever in and of himself anchor an elite unit. And I think Chet will become the kind of defensive player

who makes your defense elite just by him being there. Right. That is just a wholly different proposition. And he's not going to be somebody. Not that Paolo takes anything away on defense either. I just don't know that a defense will be, an offense that is. is great will be built around Palo just being the number one, you know, person in that, on that unit, whereas Chad, I think he's going to man elite defenses for years to come, a la Rudy

Gobert, a la Dremont Green, a la some of the best big defenders we've had in generations. I don't want to go as far as Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett. That's a bridge too far. But, yeah, I really think he could be one of the. those guys. I could definitely see it. I don't want to rule out the possibility that Palo could be that kind of offensive player though. Interesting. We're just in year two. He's jumped in terms of his efficiency, in terms of his confidence creating in these situations. And he's another guy who, like many members of the Thunder, they're in kind of an unconventional offense. And he's being asked to do some unconventional

things and things that I'm sure he wasn't growing up doing necessarily operating with this level of space and these kinds of roles. So I want to give Palo time to grow into that before we make that kind of determination. But the signs that we've seen so far, like he's physically overwhelming. He's incredibly skilled. The three has been coming around. I feel really good about the idea of him. If not as the primary creator of your offense and driver of an offense, then one who

could at least be a one-beat type. But how much of the magic's offense is unconventional because of how unconventional of a fit he is? Sure. Yeah, he just, it's tougher to, like, work around him. But the magic have done a pretty good job of it thus far, and they are waiting to really finish it off as a result. I don't think you're working around him. I think that's the framing.

Yeah, I think you're working around the lack of point guard play. Working around the lack of a traditional point guard is what they're doing. And they're working through Powell to facilitate that. Like, he's not, yes. He can't be asked to just be the fucking, you know, point guard too. He's the tent pole. He is what everything revolves around. And I think they're doing a good job of that.

And they're actually waiting to find out who the final pieces are for that. They do tend to lean more on size and defense at this point than I think it would be nice to get a little bit more juice in it. But you're already starting to see guys like Caleb Houston starting over even like Anthony Black because they know they need to get more shooting on the court there. So they seem like they're trending in the right direction for it. Yeah, but this is the philosophical debate at the top of this redraft, whether you prefer Palos, all set or Chets. Once you get past those two, I don't see anyone else in that draft class that would be taken or should

be taken above Jalen Williams. So here's a few names. Kegan Murray, Jabari Smith Jr., Shaden Sharp, Benedict Matherin, who else here? I mean, you could throw dice and Daniels in there. A lot of guys who haven't quite hit yet, you know, your Jaden Ibies, you know,

guys who haven't had a full chance, Jalen Duren, of course. I think you know, the big guys who would jump in a redraft. Jalen Williams, who was number 12, he would definitely get into the top three or four. Walker Kessler, who was number 22, hasn't had a good season,

but I still feel pretty confident about what he can be defensively. I could see him jumping into the top five or so. Andrew Nemhart at 31 is another guy who I think would be a solid first rounder in a chance to redraft. But a lot of guys in that 7 to 20 range have just had weird starts to their careers

or haven't been as impressive as we might have hoped. if somebody told me they still believe that on the high end, Shaden Sharp could be a better player than Jalen Williams. I'd be willing to listen. Just athletically, he's younger. I can understand that. But when I watch Jalen Williams last night, and again, it's different.

In a way I'm comparing apples to oranges in a way, but in a way I'm not. because some of the times, Jalen is just breaking a dude down one-on-one against the set defense. He's not attacking a close-out. So when I watch him on his drives, his balance, his patience is crazy. Compared to somebody like Anthony Edwards, who is quicker, more explosive, you would think has just as good a handle.

But for whatever reason on his drives, he doesn't have that same balance and focus. And Jalen Williams is driving, he knows exactly what he's going to do, how he's going to finish every single time. It's super dope to watch. So what he lacks in sort of explosion, I think he more than makes up for it with precision and footwork and balance. And for that reason, he's so good in controlled chaos situations. And the Thunder have a lot of those, right? There's a lot of situations, whether it's off of driving kicks, off of offensive rebounds, in transition of just kind of make something of this marginal advantage. And Jalen Williams is already really, really good at that and really, really, really shifty and really, really controlled, as you're saying was, in terms of its ability to get to the rim.

So another thing I want to say about the thunder before we move off of them is the way that they play for one another on offense is really cool to see. There is a, there's a sort of, you know, everybody working in concert with one another and their willingness to get off the rock is really cool to see for a bunch of young guys who haven't all been paid yet. It's really dope to see their willingness. And, you know, it's a cliche, but their unselfishness on the rock. Like the reason why Lou Dort and Isaiah Joe are splatch. fashion five threes apiece, their teammates are looking for them. They're whipping that pass out after they collapse the defense. And like, no, like, we want you to shoot.

You can see them. When a pass gets passed up, it's like, nah, take that, do that. And Doort is shooting this thing with supreme confidence. He's changed his shooting form from his rookie year. And that first playoff series that they played against the Rockets when Chris Paul was still there. And Shay just had got there. like Dort doesn't shoot like that anymore. He's completely changed his shot mechanics.

Chip Anglin, I don't know what that voodoo that guy got going on. But the shot is way more confident, way more fluid. He's making it at 40%. Granted, these things are wide open at the moment, but whatever. Like, the guy's taking four and a half a game. He's making 40%. You can't hate on that. And I say a joke.

Like, people just need to realize this guy is a bona fide threat from three. Like, you need to. figure out how you're going to guard that dude. It's a problem. He's a problem. He's a problem with the smoke coming out of my nose. And, and was,

not only is that kind of play style impressive for, as you said, the guys who haven't gotten paid yet, the guys who are still trying to prove themselves, it's also impressive for the MVP candidate of that team to play that way. And Shagilder's Alexander, for the crazy numbers he puts up

and the dominant effect he has, not one of these guys who is dominating the ball, not one of these guys who's right at the top of the league in terms of time of possession. He does pick a car. Trey, no, he's not. And he could be if he wanted to.

He could be if he wanted to. And maybe there's an argument to be had that in certain situations that would be more beneficial. But for this group and the guys that they have, and this is really a compliment for guys like Chet and four guys like Jalen Williams, they play well that way. Not only have the Thunder scouted well,

but they found guys who can play this way. Yeah. Paul George scores 38. They beat the Thunder. and here we are just gushing over the I mean it's a really young team they fall throughout that game. The wall is very upset at us right now.

We've talked about the Clippers a lot lately. Look, I watched that game the whole time thinking the Clippers are going to blow this thing open, right? Like, they're going to jump out to a 17-point lead, right? Like, they're going to take this thing over, right? And it just never happened until the very, very, very, very end of the game. And so that was impressive to me because the Clippers were playing well. they were taking the opponent seriously

and these guys just kept fighting back and yes, Paul George was, you know, he was sublime last night. That was crazy to see. Well, speaking of sublime, we should talk about Joel Embed last night because we got... Do we want to talk about Zubats at all first

and if that's going to matter for the Clippers, him being out for a pretty extended period of time? Sure, good, yes, good call. Zubach four weeks out, Strain, right calf. It's at least four weeks. something that could drag in a little longer. Muscle strain always lingers.

They always do. Luckily, Mason Palmley was just out there in the G-League in reserve, just biting his time. And I do think it's interesting seeing him in there as opposed to Zubach, because I do love, the guy is still athletic as all hell and could pass it and bring the different dimensions to that.

He's good at the passing. He offers a vertical threat, which still offers that threat. And my, you know, aside from all of the incredible, basketball I got to watch last night. Every time Mason Plumley got hit on a shot or got fouled, he did the exaggerated LeBron shoulder struck.

Like, I'm so strong like this doesn't even affect me. Shoulder strug. And I was like, Mason Plumley, please calm down. He's probably talking to himself because he needs to psych himself off into getting like free throws because that guy cannot shoot a goddamn free throws in his life. His free throw form. My goodness. That thing hit the rim like a thud.

I've actually found myself doing that on these pods, though. Whenever you guys are really trying to tear me down, I just start shrugging it off. I got to get my head straight. Big shoulders. But without Zhu, Rob, do you look at this team any differently? A little bit, I think, just because, like, Mason Plumley is a good backup center,

but there's already been such a stark contrast in the Clippers' rebounding when Zoo hasn't been on the floor. Granted some, that's because Plumley's been out. So they've been playing a little smaller with their backups, they've been relying on Tice a little more in some of those situations. That's going to come with the territory. I just think in a game like this against an opponent like the Thunder that's a bit smaller,

that's a bit slighter, as we've been saying, they're not going to dominate the glass in a way that's actually going to punish the clippers, but those teams are out there. And when they encounter that kind of physicality and that kind of size without far in a way the best rebounder on their team, I think they're going to pay the price for that in some matchup, but with the way they're playing right now and the playmaking

and the confidence they're playing with offensively, I think they're going to be able to overcome it. It's just going to be a little bit of a different dynamic without zoo out there. Is PJ Tucker alive? Did they bury him

in like a cinder block in the Intuit dome? I mean, the guy's 35, 36 years old, right? I think you can use him as a brick glass in case of emergency type of defender down the line.

And Ty Lou, if he's anything, he's very creative about lineups. And I think when the time comes, the matchup dictates it, he's going to use PJ Tucker. We haven't heard the last of PJ Tucker, I promise you. Maybe not, but, you know, in retrospect, I feel confident in saying that what PJ Tucker was able to accomplish in some, like, superstar matchups in particular. over the last two seasons. There were some kind of dark magic involved there. There was some kind of blood sacrifice, reanimating his body,

making him chase and hound James Hardin, among other people. Save it for the TV podcast, my friend. No, I kind of feel like Hardin needed his vertical spacing big, and here we are, and that's who they play. I can't imagine.

Like, I imagine that has to be some part of the calculus here. Absolutely is part of the calculus. Like, they got several lobs off of it. And when they weren't getting lobs, they were getting the defense to commit extra resources. And of course, you know James Hardin is going to find the goddamn shooter when you do that. So, I mean, I think it's working swimmingly. Like, there's nothing wrong with that.

But I could see a playoff matchup in which, you know, you want to save Kauai's legs. Paul George might get two files. And you need another physical. perimeter defender-oriented type who can guard against size. I think PJ Tucker will be useful at some point before, you know, the final whistle is sounded on the clipper season. Like I have the utmost confidence in that. Well, and for where they are now and how well they've been playing,

a lot of interesting All-Star cases on the Clippers. You know, James Harden making a very interesting case for himself, in addition to Paul George and Kauai playing so well, in a conference that is stacked. The West man is a bloodbath as far as trying to parse those things out. So you're saying if Hardin doesn't get an All-Star bid, this could all go to shit in a second.

I'm not saying that even remotely. I'm saying that if you would have told me several months ago, I would be legitimately thinking of James Hardin, a guy who pouted his way out of a situation as a legitimate, like have to take him seriously, All-Star candidate. I might have been a bit surprised by that information. Yeah. Well, two guys, we won't be surprised to see in Indianapolis alongside us at our live show, perhaps, in the crowd, just watching us as we're doing our thing. We got round one of Joelle and our guy, Yokic. No ducking was afforded in this game. And speaking of Bigs playing big, Jewel and Bede looked incredible. 41 points, 10 assists, seven rebounds. Let's just stop in Marvel. And let's just, let's just stop in Marvel. And let's just, let's just,

just say any of the weird Catholic repentance we've done about Joel Embed's MVP last year after he threw up a turd in the playoffs, which deservedly deserved all of the kind of ripping he got as a result of that and all the questions that still linger over this team as a result of that, all fair and good. He was incredible last night, and this team has been incredible when he plays like that. And like, I'm starting to, like, I'm constantly rethinking how I feel about the Sixers and man, they might just be better than we think. Well, he plays like that an awful lot.

Just a phenomenal season from Joel. And this kind of performance in particular where the range and the touch that he has for a big, like he's hitting stepbacks and turnarounds and off-balance jumpers, it wasn't shack-type dominance from him in the ways that obviously we've seen before. It was face-up Dirk and KG style dominance.

from him. Picking defenses apart. Giant Kobe. And when teams have floating help the way that Denver did for a lot of this game where guys are just kind of mucking up lanes, they're kind of edging toward Joel and Bid without outright doubling him,

that's how you have to play that in some respects. Like someone is going to have to hit shots. Either Joel is going to hit jumpers over the top of whoever's guarding him or he's going to rocket passes to the guys who are in the corner who are being left and try to beat the recovery. I thought he was able to do both of those things.

And honestly, I thought Denver's game plan was pretty good. Their defensive design was pretty good. This was just like another piece of proof that pretty good against a player like Joel just doesn't matter in some of these games. Yeah, he was at his best last night. That was incredible to see. And obviously, I've definitely been one of the bigger, harsher critics of Jojo Embed in the media over the years. No, you would never do that.

And, you know, and rightfully so. I think the guy has so much ability. I expect a lot more than some of what he's put out in some big moments in the past. However, this season, his play has been unimpeachable. Like, you cannot, this is not even I could muster anything in the way of a critique for how he's played throughout this season. He's looked incredible. And I do want to take some time out, man, to appreciate. the evolution of this guy's game from where he started in this league to now.

And, you know, people who don't know, like, some of the folklore around Embed, when he first got to Kansas, it was this idea that, like, the coaches would come to him and be like, yo, we need you to learn this move, this thing that might take most bigs three months to master. Joelle would come back in four days and have it mastered. And he'd be like, oh, shit, you could do that now. Okay, on that you should build upon it with this thing. And then another five, four days after that,

Joelle will come back, having built upon it. And so it went, right? And so from a guy who picked a basketball as late as he has to become undoubtedly one of the most skilled big man in the history of the game, right? Like, when we talk about skilled big man, we're talking about Kareem and Walton and, you know, if you want to get real.

hipster, Arvita Sabonis and the like and all of those guys. Like, Joel is up there with them and still one of the most physically imposing guys in the NBA. It's a marvel what he's doing right now. There's no doubt about it. Now, all we want to see is him continue it and create some of the bigger moments for the Sixers and their fans because they're desperately hungry for it. Yeah, I had him at two made baskets at the rim.

last night, five in the paint, the rest were jumpers. And drop 40. I think basically all those that he got in the paint were assisted to because of the way Denver was guarding him. If he wasn't getting in transition or cutting or making himself available off of someone else's creation, they were hedging and edging

his way. So the two things that jumped out to me, big picture about the Sixers last night. One, I think it's going to be hard to sell to Joel and Bede and anyone on the Sixers at this point to not make some sort of trade as we barrel toward the deadline in order to take advantage of yet another

immaculate Joelle-L-L-Libed season. I think wasting this would be disappointing. And now, obviously, there's a long runway with him in Maxie. Maxie isn't even on his next contract yet. But there's always the concerns with Joel about injuries. He's missed, I think, 10 games this year. I mean, we're going to get to the point where we might not be able to vote for him for MVP because he's missed 17 and now that we have that new rule. So, like, one, I would like to see the Sixers do something before the deadline in order to take advantage of this. The other thing I was thinking about is I wonder if the Denver blueprint that they've assembled is a good model for this next version of what the Sixers become.

And now you might say, well, Yokic's playmaking allows them to basically have him in Murray and then just a bunch of like catch and shoot guys who could play both ways. And you could be a little bit less creative with some of the other parts when you have that rock solitude and when you have a Yokish to orchestrate everything. thing. I'll grant that. But I wonder if like maxi's come along enough as a playmaker, Joel has come along enough as a playmaker, where you can get it from a bunch of different spots and have that same sort of mentality where it's like, we just want size and shooting with these other guys. And like if you even look at the lineup they put out there against the

Nuggets, there's kind of like a Kroger brand discount version of that sort of thinking where it's like Batum and Ubre, who are obviously on minimum contracts and nowhere close to the guys that the Nuggets have. But that's kind of the thinking that I want. I want long athletic shooting guys out there around these two, like just honestly, All-Star caliber, like, tent pulls for your franchise now. Yeah, I think on that last point, I don't see it as being that different from what they're already doing.

You know, when Anthony Melton's healthy, like he deserves a spot on the rotation, deserves a spot to start. Like, I think Melton is really good and is a little bit smaller than this kind of group. But mostly the difference is not in size necessarily, but in some of the physicality that Denver has. The physicality that Aaron Gordon brings,

the physicality that Contavius Caldwell Pope brings, those are a little different than what Philly has to offer. And you could even see it some in the rebounding discrepancy in this game. I know a lot of that was just Yokic following his own misses, but there are also cases where other sixers were just getting kind of beat and beasted off the boards a little bit. That's the nature of playing Tobias Harris at the four and relying on that kind of situation.

Like Harris is skilled, he's big enough and strong. enough to body wings out of his way, but not necessarily to wrestle with other bigs and other players who are kind of like-sized or even bigger. Overall, though, I think the Sixers have good length. I think they have good shooting. You could try to tilt into an even more talented direction by consolidating some of these players, by attaching draft picks. As we talked about previously, I'm all in favor of a modest upgrade for the Sixers. I just don't see a big swing here so much as can they get one more really good role player to augment what they already have? Yeah, I think Maxie and, you know, some people might think I'm being blasphemous here.

I could make the case that he's a better individual player and talent than Jamal Murray is. Like, particularly what he's able to do in a one-on-one. Like, this guy is a beast. Like, look, as good as Murray is, when he's trying to prop up their bench units and, do his own thing. It's not always great, okay? He is, like, his game is very complimentary to what Yokic brings to the table. And I think their synergy is greatness personified.

But on his own, he's not creating and crafting these incredible, you know, offensive possessions. That's not to take anything away from him. I think Maxi is a player more in that realm, honestly, on his own. And so I think his playmaking becomes simpler because of that truth. Like, because he can beat so many guys, he can bend defenses in ways that defenses aren't afraid to leave a guy that's really good on an island with Jamal Murray, particularly when, excuse me, when Yokic isn't involved. Right. And so I think more than size, man, it's just make a shot. be in the right spot, you know, get that board when they're double teaming Joelle.

Like, it's, to me, it's know-how and skill more than size that they need around it, man, because I think they could generate a decent amount of offense between their two guys. And I think it's just about, you know, Baton being the ultimate ball mover connector type. Movement without the ball. can sometimes even be a movement shooter. Like, those kinds of guys are going to prop up what they do. Obviously, OG coming in would have been a ridiculous upgrade to what they're doing. Like, you can't discount that.

And not any, he's not there. It's fine. I just think to replicate what the nuggets bring in terms of bullying the shit out of people with a 611 small forward, a 6'10 power forward who's as strong as anybody in Yokit, you just literally his core strength is just ridiculous. I don't know that you need to try to replicate that. And so much is have dudes that know how to freaking hoop around what you're doing. There's also something too, Justin, in kind of spinning off what you were saying about the

playmaking difference between Yokic and Embed. There's also a difference in where they operate on the floor and what they're looking to get out of those scenarios that kind of lends itself to different sort of supporting talent. I almost think you can put not just more like standstill shooters around Yokic, but you can put players like Aaron Gordon around him more easily. You can put size around Yokic more easily in some ways because of the way he inverts the floor looking to pass, looking to get guys on the duck in.

And in Bid, it should be noted, I think is improved by leaps and bounds as a passer. I thought this game in particular, like his patience operating against the Nuggets was really, really impressive. And something that we didn't see from him, even two and three seasons ago. But there is a difference in the way that Yokic and I operate that I think allows, it might just

skew a little smaller on average in terms of the skill sets you want around Embed versus the skill sets you want around Yolkich. Yeah, Embed will always try to overwhelm you. He's more of like a maximalist, whereas Yokic is always going to want to default to orchestration. And we should point out, going into this game, Yokic over his past 13 games,

was shooting 71% from the floor. And this feels like his version of being his best self in the way that Joelle would be just dominating and scoring 50. He just wants to sit back. He wants to be the Leonard Bernstein. And he wants to point guys in different direction. He wants to really just manage everything on the floor in order to play, like to in order to use everyone out there.

Whereas Mbid is still going to get his. And so that subtle difference is also kind of maybe a sticking point. into like the level of creation you need from those other guys. All right. Save it for the movie podcast, Justin. Your kitchen a lot of ways reminds me of LeBron. And this reminds me of LeBron in 2013. If you guys remember when he had that like,

he had this long 30 point streak, but also like shooting 60% or something. He was like playing efficiency games during this little streak in Miami because he had just like, just mastered all of his powers by that point. And the roster was one that he was just so, like, locked into when it came to, you know, Bosch now at the 5 and Betty at the 4 and Ray Allen and all it.

Like, he had become so, you know, basically won with the system that he could play these efficiency games. I think Yokic is doing the same thing right now, where it's like, what if I just went five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten games of only taking the very best shots possible, right? Now, again, in a playoff series, you can't do that, right? It's like, no, you got to force the issue, you got to make defenses respect you, you got to blah, blah, blah.

But what if in the regular season against the likes of Charlotte and Detroit and whoever, I just decided I'm only going to take the very best shots? And what could that do for my efficiency? That's what it feels like Yolkich is doing right now. We all have to find ways to get through the regular season. And for us, that's making up dumb bits on this podcast. And for them, it's like, okay, can I only pass tonight?

Or could I only dominate as a score tonight? You got to get through it. Who's making up dumb bits for this podcast? I didn't. I'm sorry. All right. That's it for us. We'll be back on Sunday. Thank you to Jack Sanders on production.

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