The Ringer NBA Show - Pelicans, Suns, Timberwolves: Who Can Still Turn It Around? | The Mismatch

Episode Date: December 31, 2019

We break down a Western Conference trio that had high hopes coming into the season but have struggled their way to the bottom of the conference. Can any of them get hot and get back into the playoff mix (3:12)? Then, we re-draft what we think are the top four players from the 2016 NBA draft: Ben Simmons, Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown, and Pascal Siakam (31:45). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Over the holidays and into the new year, we'll still be publishing new shows to keep you up to speed with the NFL playoff race, the NBA, and award season. We've published some great episodes in the month of December, including two rewatchables on Happy Gilmore and the Godfather Part 2. Chris interviewed watchman showrunner Damon Lindeloff on the watch, and the Ringer NBA show ranked the top 25 players of the 2019-2020 season so far. Lastly, happy holidays from The Ringer. Welcome to The Ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Varnan. Joining me as he does every Tuesday.

And for the last Tuesday of 2019 is Kevin O'Connor from the Ringer.com. He is Kevin O'Bombermer. He is Kevin O'Conflict, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'Clymer. Kevin O'Connornaidate, Kevin O'Candek, Kevin O'Chamra. Kevin O'Berno. Happy New Year. How you doing? Happy New Year to you.

Did you make any New Year's resolutions? not yet. I'll figure that out after recording the podcast. Got to get this done first, Chris. That's what you're going to do. You're going to do the podcast and then you're going to sit down and make New Year's resolutions. Well, Bob, we'll take care of some errands. Then I'll take care of the resolutions. Hopefully get to that today before the new year begins. Do you have any plans tonight? Are you going to do anything special? No. No. No. No. What?

I'm a kid staying up late. I'll watch the NBA games. I'll watch Texas, Utah. whatever bowl game that is, and then I'll go to bed. It's going to be really exciting. I stopped New Year's. Geez, I don't know. I think probably the last time I went out on New Year's was probably like 12 years ago. I don't know, 14 years ago.

I don't know. I mean, my wife was still my girlfriend, so it was a long time. It was a long time ago. The last time I went out for New Year's, you know, the cover charges. And I don't like huge crowds. So, you know what I mean? I don't think, maybe I went out to dinner for like a new year's or something, but I don't know. Now I'm old.

I guess I'll sit around and watch, well, it's not Dick Clark anymore. He's dead. Who is it? Ryan Sechrest? Ryan Sechrist. I think it's Ryan Sechrist now. He's doing, and he still does like Dick Clark's Rock and Eve. They don't even call it like Ryan Seacrest Rocking Eve.

Wow. Don't they still call it? I think they still call it Dick Clark's Rock and Eve. His legacy lives on. Hopefully, no extended family of the Dick Clark family are listening to the show. Well, no. I mean, I've just stated a matter of fact. It's not like I slander the guy.

It's just the way it came out. That's all. They still got his rocking Eve. It's still rocking. Yeah. I mean, he still lives on New Year's Eve. It's always a show like to put on TV until you fall asleep. Let's get to what has happened since we last spoke.

And first things first, we have had some juggles. in the Western Conference standings because some of these teams that started off better than we expected, probably, have gone into a free fall. We have three teams now that are all two and eight in their last 10 games, though a couple of them have won recently. Phoenix has won two in a row. Minnesota got a win last night. Sacramento still in the middle of their losing skid with seven straight. But with those three teams, Phoenix, Minnesota, and Sacramento, who have all really fallen back. Which of those do you think can get back in the mix or will get back in the mix? I mean, of those three teams, the two teams are the best players I would give an edge to.

Phoenix with Devin Booker or Minnesota with Carl Anthony Towns. Those teams have the most talented players. So I would say they naturally get the edge in that respect. Phoenix last night, winning the game that they did against Portland was a nice win for them. DeAndre Aiton back coming off the bench behind Aaron Baines. I think I would lean towards Phoenix, Chris. I mean, earlier in the season, we're calling them the Bright Now Sons, and they have really sputtered lately.

They're not good. They're 13 and 20 now, but they have one two in a row. Devin Booker's still a high level player. I would give the edge to them, especially with Aiton back and the type of lineup versatility they'll have now. We agree. And that was a good win for them last night coming back in the second half and beating Portland 122 to 116. I agree with you.

I have seen all three of those teams in person, a couple of them multiple times this year. Phoenix is the best of those three teams. And I think it's pretty significant. I know the records are close, but I think Phoenix is the best of those. They have impressed me. And Monty Williams got those guys passing the ball. They've gone through some injuries. It'll be interesting to see.

how Aiton fits back in because Baines is a really good fit for them, for sure. And a guy that keeps the ball moving and they've got like the role playing point guard who keeps the ball moving. They've got the role playing center who keeps the ball moving and plays defense. And so, yeah, I'm a Phoenix believer. I don't think Minnesota outside of a move. I mean, they have had their injuries for sure. I don't think that they have the leadership to get by. and with Sacramento, God bless, they just so far exceeded our expectations, Kevin.

And now you read these stories out of there about Buddy Heald, not, you know, trusting the coach and guys getting into it. Dwayne Deadman? Oh, my God. Look, Sacramento fans killed me for making fun of the Dwayne Deadman signing. They killed me for it. And they are nowhere to be found now. And number one, because Dwayne Dedman is the perfect. I watched him two times against my team one year.

I have a strong opinion about him. He played for a rat team and put up numbers, and now he's a big that can stretch the floor. And they paid him $40 million and this guy wants to be trade. When you're to the point where Dwayne Dedman is requesting a trade, things are in the toilet. And they were so much better, especially, you know, getting by without Fox and Bagley.

just weird how this thing has fallen apart so quickly. It's a weird situation there, especially the buddy healed stuff. Oh, the buddy healed stuff, I mean, just to kind of like give the briefest summary possible. There's been a little bit,

it seems like, of finger pointing in a way. Is that fair to say, Chris? Yeah, well, look, I mean,

that whole, the coaches don't trust me. And of course, they ran the place for him in that double overtime game that they came up short in. just strange. I mean, he was, you know he wasn't happy until he got that contract.

And now he got the contract and he's upset about something else. I don't know. I don't know what's going on there with that team. And it is odd because Buddy Heald has never struck me as a ultra high maintenance guy. Great teammate, super hard worker. and by all account, everybody I know that knows Buddy Heald absolutely loves him and thinks he's the greatest. So that's what's so crazy about the whole thing. I think with Buddy, part of it probably is just that deep will to win that he has, the desire to succeed and things aren't going well.

And we're seeing the way in which he's reacting when things aren't going well. And it's probably he apologized to the team before a practice the other day after making those calls. comments about the lack of trust. And so that's a good sign of maturity at least. Luke Walton said he was happy that Buddy addressed the team before that practice. And with Buddy, it's probably just some growing pains here, a guy who has more responsibility on his shoulders, a guy who for really the first time in his career entered a season with the expectations of like, you're getting this contract, you're a 20 point-per-game scorer last year. People are expecting more of you. It's a lot on his shoulders.

all of sudden. And I think it's a bit forgivable that those comments were made. But now as a King's fan or as a King's employee coach, player, teammate, you want to see Buddy Heald continue to grow from that. And also, you want to see him start shooting the ball

better too. I would imagine there's some frustration on his end with that too. He's shooting 36% from three after last year shooting 43%. And the year before that, also shooting 43%. His numbers are down. And I'm sure that's a point of frustration for him. Well, and let me just say this.

For those that don't know what we're talking about, these were the comments after a game. He said, seems like we're all over the place, coaches and everybody, trust issues going on, I guess. Guys stop believing in players. It is what it is. They have who they have playing out there, and I just have to be supportive. I like to be on the court. That's why I'm on the court. I want to make plays, make shots. I feel like I wasn't trusted the past. two games to be on the court. And so look, again, you could stand up and you can say, I'm sorry, and that shows maturity, but is there, right, there's, there's truth in, he felt that way.

And I don't think that that was just frustration about not getting to play in two, two games. You know, I mean, I think Buddy Heald thinks like, hey, you committed to me a lot financially. I'm the guy. And for better or worse, like, stick with me. And so that's, you know, was that trust broken, right? What happens the next time Luke Walton doesn't go back to him? Is he just going to be a big man about it and not be upset about it?

Or is there something now that came to the forefront because, and this is what happens, you know, with losing, when you get on a losing streak, the hardest thing to do is to get back feeling good. And if you don't correct it quickly, it can turn into a free fall. and you've got three of these teams that have fallen into it. And I also have the most confidence in Monty Williams getting it back together for Phoenix, more so than Saunders, more so than Walton. Would you agree with that? I would say that's fair, sure. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, because that's a coach's job because everything about being around a losing basketball team is awful. And everybody's down and everybody's pointing fingers. And even if they're not doing it in front of a microphone, that's what's happening. and you've got to correct it quickly or else it can really go south on you. And that's what's interesting about all this with Buddy Healed. I think with Buddy, you can look at him directly as a player. And I mentioned earlier how his shooting numbers are a bit down than his normal elite numbers.

His passing also has sort of plateaued. He did make progress at Oklahoma in college as a passer. He made some subtle progress as a playmaker as a ball handler in the NBA. but he hasn't yet really made a leap in that department as a guy who can handle defensive pressure and make high level passes out of that pressure to create for his teammates. And with the frustration that's around the Kings with Buddy Heald, nobody's at all talking about like, oh, would Buddy Heald want out? And yet that's what we do have in Minnesota with Ethan Sherwood Strauss,

among others, reporting that the Warriors are monitoring Carl Anthony Towns in Minnesota. I believe multiple people have reported the Knicks for monitoring Carl Anthony Towns as well. And yet with that situation, even with Minnesota struggling a bit, they are not going to trade Carl Anthony Towns in year one of five in his contract. It's just not something that's going to happen anytime soon. Yet it's interesting, though, that something like that is at least out there that Towns isn't, according to Strauss, not happy in his situation. Well, you just, you really never know. And here's what I'll say, because I've been through something like this before. You've got a new guy that takes over as the general manager. You really can't get inside his head, even though you know he wanted to make it work with Carl Towns, right? But let me take you back several years now, right? And this was the Grizzlies have made the playoffs, though they had gotten swept three different times in the playoffs. They were 0 and 12. And the best player on the team was Powell Gasol. And,

they end up trading Powell Gasol, which was at the time a very controversial trade, and they traded him to the Lakers. And the standpoint was, we suck with him. We could suck without him, right? And so there does come a point with some of these teams where they sit there and say, look, I mean, I get it. But if we're right now, if we're going to try to rebuild this thing and we're going to try to build a real winner, I mean, are we doing it with this guy?

what is our timeline with this guy. And of course he's not happy. What? He hadn't won anything in what, five, six years. And the one year he did get to play in the playoffs, he hated the guy that was the best player on his team who drug him to the playoffs in Jimmy Butler. And so. And then they got smack too by Houston in five games.

Yeah. And they did a terrible job building around him. I mean, look, it's interesting that the two Kentucky transcendent bigs have been built around the worst. And that is Anthony Davis, who we finally see in a winning situation after all these years. And the same will probably be true of Towns.

Right? And Towns needs to go to a team like that with an awesome perimeter player because that's obviously not Wiggins. Right? He needs to be, there needs to be some kind of dynamic offensive player at the end of the games with the ball in his hands

that you can pair with him and they just don't have it right now. No, they don't. And that and one of the reasons they're putting Jared Culver in a primary playmaking position. And he is as a rookie had mixed results, but you do hope that's something he grows into more. But even then, though, he's, that's still not what he's going to be in his prime years. And if you're Minnesota, you would hope in this draft that is overflowing with guards, ball handling players, that they're able to find a guy that can fit into that role and become that guy that accelerates this, this really,

It seems like they're in limbo right now with Carl Anthony Towns. That he's able to accelerate that and make them a consistent playoff team because, look, they're not going to trade towns. It shouldn't be a conversation right now. But it is accurate to say that teams are monitoring the situation, as they should, because a year or two years or three years from now, if Minnesota has not made any progress from where they are today and where they have been, you damn well can bet that Towns is not going to be happy. And at that point, Minnesota will have to at least think about it. But that's a long way from now. It is really hard to build with your absolute best player being a big guy,

unless you get the perimeter guy to go with him. You know, I mentioned Palgassol. You know, Chris Bosch had good results. I mean, they were playoff teams and he was putting up huge numbers in Toronto, but then he goes elsewhere to be a winner. Kevin Love put up huge numbers in Minnesota. Then he goes elsewhere to become a winner. These teams that have the big guy.

I mean, big guys have been built around poorly for decades now in many cases. And then we see them go elsewhere and have their success. And right now, it's just not the best time to be a big guy in the NBA. You know, with the way the league is, you see the stars have the ball in their hands. They don't have to be past the ball. They have it. And most of the time when they're bringing it up the court. Well, and you see that in a lot of successful teams.

You see the two LA teams with McGee and Zubots at center. You see it with Boston, with Daniel Tice and Ennis Cantor. You see in situations across the board that teams are able to have centers that make under $10 million and successfully have that player fit into their formula rather than be the formula. and I'm not necessarily sure that that's something that matters. It doesn't matter if you're a truly elite big like Anthony Davis. It doesn't matter at that level. But that's the question teams like Detroit have to ask when it comes to making a decision on Andre Drummond. That's going to be the problem with some other guys that come up for contracts and in the near future too.

It's the difficulty also in building around a guy like Towns who is a level below Anthony Davis. Towns is a great player, but he's not an elite player like Anthony Davis. It's same thing, even for that matter, with Utah, with Rudy Gobert. Rudy Gobert is a great player, but there's still been challenges in playoff series in the past, with him on the defensive floor defending on the perimeter, with lack of spacing on offense. It's been discussed before, but I do wonder if some of these teams building around cheaper centers might be what teams prefer to do moving forward. Well, I think that's absolutely. Look, there's just no doubt between the teams that really win. And you do wonder, is there a ceiling on somebody like Denver because their best guy plays that position? And you also think about it with the upcoming draft, right? Do you take James Wiseman as your next franchise guy? I mean, it's hard to know if your best player can be a big guy because our best big guys have been built around so poorly. Right? Like, and,

Anthony Davis and Carl Towns, probably the two best big guys to come in the league in the last decade, right? And we say, well, it's not really a fair shot because you built around them so badly. Like, what if they did have somebody else with them that was in the elite level, elite, like one of the best perimeter guys? And neither of them ever played with that. And now you're seeing what it looks like when Davis has somebody like that on his team. Because he doesn't have all that much besides LeBron. And I get it. It's LeBron.

So he makes the difference with everything. But I don't know. I mean, you think about the big guys that have come in and even like power forwards over the course of the last couple of years that have come into the league. And I mean, geez, even if you go back two years, Kev, you don't think they'd rather have Luca Donchich or maybe even Trey Young or maybe even somebody else

than DeAndre Aitin and Phoenix? Of course. I'm so I'm saying. But I mean, we're going through this now. At some point we've got to realize these guys that, you know, hard to build around a big guy these days. It is hard. And forward to first just add a couple other players like Bam and a bio on Miami. Another guy drafted in the middle of the first round.

Brooke Lopez, Milwaukee able to get him as a discount big man out of free agency. A lot of cheaper centers were able to fit into teams rather than being a core piece. And they can become a core piece like Bama out of bio has in Miami. And it's just going to be something interesting to monitor. You're right with James Wiseman being the clear best big man prospects on paper. But it's a guy you want to invest in. I don't know. And let me just correct one thing before I get destroyed by the Twitter intelligentsia.

This is saying without M.B. M. Bid is the best of them outside. I mean, if you want to argue M. Bid and Davis, But an M. B. has been, he's got players around him. And is M.B. The guy that gets the ball at the very end of games. I mean, that's what we're going to find out when it comes playoff time, right?

Because they had Jimmy Butler last year when he has had his most success. And Jimmy Butler was the guy versus the Raptors. At the end of those games, you saw it was Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. And so who is it now? Because it's going to have to be Tobias or Josh Rich. or Ben Simmons. I mean, this is why people think there could be a ceiling on what they do. And we will find out maybe Embed's the guy that you can just feed the ball to with the game on the line and he's going to go take you home with it.

You need better floor spacing around Embed if you're going to throw it into the post to him. Everybody still thinks they need the perimeter guy. And that's kind of the key to this. That was a story going into the season. Who is the guy that steps up and becomes that playmaker at the end of the clock? in the fourth quarter against a set defense. You hope it would be Tobias Harris or Josh Richardson. You hope Ben Simmons could develop his jumper off the dribble to become more of a threat

where defenses aren't switching or going under screens. And Richardson hasn't made that leap. Harris maybe could be the guy, but even then he's still not a go-to score necessarily. And Simmons hasn't improved his shot. So that's something Philadelphia does need to search for or figure out ways around that. But that is a looming issue for that team. But I thought Richardson would be a bit better than he has been. And maybe it's just about running more pick and roll for Philadelphia,

but I'm not convinced that's any solution either. All right. Let's get to. So earlier we mentioned Buddy Healed, the top of his draft class, at least the top three, have been absolutely sensational. And we've talked a lot about Ben Simmons over the course of the last few weeks. Surely you have. But Brandon Ingram and Jalen Brown were the same.

second and third picks in that draft. Those two, and I know you don't particularly care about players of the week, but it was interesting to see the number two and number three pick in that draft were the respective players of the week. And the pelicans have actually come along and been playing better basketball as of late, a really good win recently in Denver. And they've gotten some wins. And, you know, I've seen these pictures of Zion out on the court, you know, warming up

He dunks. Yeah, dunking, warming up before games. You know, I'm getting, I'm getting excited because the big Martin Luther King Day game in just a few weeks is in Memphis. And I'm wondering if that could maybe be his debut. Right? Because they play, they play. I mean, it's a center stage game in Memphis versus the Pelicans. And that's why they put it on Martin Luther King Day against the Pelicans because they were going to have Zion Williamson.

So anyways, now with him on the horizon. and with all of these teams, you know, as we mentioned at the top of the podcast in this free fall. I mean, if you're New Orleans, hell, you're three and a half out of the eighth seed. You absolutely bring Zion back as soon as he is healthy and you try to take a run at this thing. They've won four games in a row. And by virtue of these other teams, you know, free falling, they're right back in the mix, for God's sake. About a month ago, I remember you saying they go on a little wind street, they're going to be right back in this. Well, here we are.

Crazy. That's the nature of the Western Congress this year. I know, you're only four games away. Literally, you go on a four-game win streak, and now it's like, well, geez, now are, and now we have to recalibrate what we're doing. I mean, we were just a week ago talking about, do you just punt? Do you just say to hell with this season, bring it back next year? And the answer now is no.

It changes. And they've had some nice wins, too. They beat Portland and Denver on the road. They beat Indiana at home. And then last night on Sunday, I'm sorry, on Sunday night, they beat Houston. Granted, none of Houston's best players were playing. But still, four games in a row. They have pretty much this entire week off before two-game road trip against the Lakers and Kings.

Look, with New Orleans, you can't ignore those early season struggles. But it's undeniable, undeniable. The Derek favors, Derek favors of all people, has been a significant. difference maker for this team in the defensive end of the four because of his positioning on defense jackson hayes is somebody who has long-term potential but he's still too lean too skinny and not quite frankly he's his to be an elite defensive player you need to be able to read the game in a fast high level and he's somebody long-term you hope can be that but right now he is not yeah i'll tell you this kev derrick favors is just a hundred percent solid

veteran. You know what I mean? And sometimes just plugging those guys in, it just can make a radical difference. Yes. He knows what to do. He knows how to keep the ball moving. He produces. You know what I mean? Like, there's very rarely you ever going to see a Derek Favors game where it's like two point in one rebound. You know what I'm saying? Like he gets you what he gets you. He's a rock solid player on both ends of the floor. It's a great screener. He's a good decision maker. He's a big man. Knows how to roll to the rim. Good timing on everything he's. does. He's just a guy who enhances players around him and he sort of touches on

what we're talking about with other centers. He's a non-elite center. He's not even a great center, but he's a good center on an affordable deal under $20 million and he fits into whatever team you're building with. And with New Orleans, what you're building is something

that you're seeing Brennan Ingraham emerge into a superstar. This season, he's shooting the heck out of the ball, shooting career highs from three-point range and from the free throw. line. He tweaked his shooting form. He has a smoother shooting release. And in the past, he used to really have a pause at the top of his release that both from the line and from the three three point line off the catch that probably may have been the cause of some of his inconsistencies. He's a

smoother release now, releasing it as he's jumping towards the top of his release point. It looks good. It looks smooth. It looks consistent. And hopefully for him, it sustains over the course of the year, because what that turned him into is a efficient 25 point per game score who can be used all around the court. And you think about if Lonzo Ball can continue making some improvements as a shooter as well, that allows them to fit in their ball holiday bat court, holiday's ability to play off ball, where he's at his best. And then you can slide Zion Williamson right into this. And he's a guy, another guy who can handle the ball, share the playmaking load,

and just be utilized as that freakish downhill player that he was in preseason. And suddenly, I wouldn't rule out New Orleans making a run up the playoffs. I really wouldn't. If Zion comes back and looks the way he did in preseason, how could you not pick them out of this lump of teams in the Western Conference with how they've looked lately with what Ingram is a top 25 player in the league? if Zion can come back and be what he was in preseason, I have a hard time picking New Orleans,

picking any other team over New Orleans. Like it's Sacramento, Minnesota, Memphis, Phoenix, Portland, San Antonio. I don't know, man. Yeah, no, I like, we all liked them going into the season. Their roster looks good, and it looks pretty balanced, and they've got a good collection of veterans slash, and then it was just so wrong, and it was going so badly. And typically, even now with their four-game win streak,

Typically, if you've got 11 wins at this point in the season, you're punting. The season's over. But the West has been so crappy, you know, record-wise. At the bottom. No, that's what I'm saying. From like, look, from that you can, there's a 17 dog fight for the 8 seed. And they're all in that mix. And so we got to the point where, geez, man, their record is so bad.

Maybe they're going to move off Drew Holiday. Maybe you end up moving JJ Reddick. Now you hope to get Zion back and keep it all together because like you mentioned, I had said this a couple weeks ago, you're always, you're just a win streak away. Now, I didn't think we'd get to the end of the calendar year and be able to get four wins and be back in the mix. But here we are. And that is spurned on by these total free falls. We have three teams that went two and eight in their last 10 games. And so your win shuns. streak is just accentuated that much. You're not expecting all of those teams to simultaneously have a free fall. And it would theoretically look like you were much farther out of it. But by virtue of that, they are, they're right in the mix. And so I'm with you.

Get your guys back and take a run at it because it wouldn't surprise anybody if they had their full roster and they went eight and two over a 10 game stretch. And then you're in the friggin' eight seed. You know, I certainly, with their whole healthy roster, wouldn't you take it over just about everybody ahead of them? Sure. Right now. Right now. With their fully healthy roster, yes.

You like them better than the, I mean, I'd rather have their roster than the spurs, the Blazers, the Blazers, Suns, Grizzlies, T, wolves, kings. I mean, player for player, if I'm just picking them off a wall, I think yes. I mean, I love New Orleans entering the season. Yeah. So, and I love Brandon Ingram. So, and I think Lonzo Ball's improvements have been not overlooked necessarily, but I think it's for real. What he's been doing off the catch is a shooter shooting 39% on over 100 catch and shoot three

pointers. And that's a small sample overall, but I'm impressed with his shooting form with how he's kept a consistent. And that's encouraging moving forward. Same with Brandon Ingram. I mentioned his improvements earlier. And maybe, I mean, hopefully like that could someday happen for, for Zion as well, a long way from that being a conversation with his shot.

But the improvement from Brennan Ingram and Lonzo Ball and the threat they can be as a shooter off the catch just increases floor spacing and makes it, it's going to make it a lot harder to stop Zion Williams on his rumbling drives to the rim. I got to be real, man. Like, I can't wait until Zion gets back. going to be an injection of energy and excitement into the season. Well, I tell you this. I mean, you know,

who else can't wait? ESPN, NBA TV and TNT. Pelicans are on every friggin night. Yeah, well, they're not going to be on every night, though,

moving forward, though. I know. They only have, I think, four national TV games, I know, five national TV games in January,

and then a handful in February, too. So there are, there are games left. I know. But, but, uh,

towards the end of, the season. I'm curious to know how much they'll actually be on. It depends on where they are in the playoff race. Well, the reason we brought up the Pelicans and what they've been doing lately and the Ingram success is because he was player of the week in the Western Conference. In the Eastern Conference was the third pick of the 2016 draft. Now, I am going to ask you two very difficult questions that are going to put you in a very hard spot.

You ready? Yeah. All right. First question. You are Danny Aange. You can only keep one of them. Do you keep Tatum or Brown? Tatum.

I still would keep Tatum. It's a lot closer than I, like, if you asked me that question on this day last year, it would have been clearly Tatum. It's a lot closer now. I just think Tatum still has greater scoring potential. And he's one of the best wing defenders in basketball. Brown has improved quite a bit, but he also still doesn't have the offensive load that Tatum has. He has been awesome this year, though.

I mean, you look at these. Yeah. For his career, he was like, you know, right around, I mean, good 47% from the field. He's up to 52 this year and shooting a higher volume of threes while averaging 40% from three. 21 points a game, seven rebounds, two assists, steal a game while playing good defense and kind of being a really good team player. Boy, I mean, Jaylin has, he has taken a big, leap. I mean, it's kind of funny to, I put out a video a couple weeks ago showing Jaylen Brown's improvements as a ball handler. And it's, it's actually quite comical to watch

video of him as a freshman at California. Just how clunky his handle was at that point and how he used to put his head down on drives to the rim. He always looked like somebody who was trying to do the right thing by changing pace and using hesitations. But it just wasn't something that trick defenders. He was not deceiving defenders into falling for his hesitation moves, but he's really tightened his handle and improved his shot shooting for him off the dribble to become a guy who's reliable at getting to the basket, finishing at the rim,

and by shooting off the dribble as well, both from mid-range and from three. So his improvements every year, still only 23 years old, maybe there's more upside to Jaylon Brown than a lot of people might have anticipated last year especially during the the Kyrie situation. But Jaylen's leap this year is impressive, and I'm sort of reconfiguring my outlook on his future as well. I've always liked him as a prospect.

But this leap this year with the ball handling and the finishing at the rim and the scoring off the dribble, it's quite remarkable to watch. I remember Bill Simmons for, obviously last year, everything with the, the Kyrie season was a disaster, right? And so opinions changed.

on everybody. And Tatum wasn't, you know, really struggled his second year. And Jalen Brown is not what we thought he was, whatever. But I remember a few years ago, especially after they had made that playoff run there at the East finals. And Bill was saying he had brought up at one point the Jalen Brown. He was talking about his first X number of years, first three years, first four years, and brought up Paul George.

And I remember and he's like, and I know people are just going to call me a Boston. Homer and whatever else, right? And he's like, but go look at him. And it is, it is, it is interesting to look at it. Because if you go look at it right now, George had this trajectory, eight points, 12 points, 17 points. And then that fourth year really came into his own

and was scoring 22 points a game and seven rebounds a game. And really became a different player. His assist were up a little higher than Jaylins. but it's not insane. And think about how we think about Paul George. And if you go look at the numbers, the trajectory is very, very close on these two guys.

And that's always been in the back of my head that he said that once upon a time. Because I think at that point, everybody's like, come on, Jalen Brown is not going to be Paul George. Now it doesn't look that crazy. Same thing with Tatum, too. I mean,

the comparison for Tatum was always somebody like Paul George. And with Tatum right now, the problem, is his at-room finishing. And that is concerning. It is something that hasn't gotten much better since he was at Duke. But he's getting there more often, or really showing a desire to get to the rim more often.

And he's a better shooter than Jalen Brown, too. You know what? You know what? So it's like with Tatum, it's like, does he go down the Rudy Gay path where he is what he is? And he doesn't get a lot better as a finisher. He doesn't get better at drawing files.

or does he make a leap at some point like Paul George did? We'll see what happens with Tadam moving forward. And with Jalen Brown, you're right, though, that the progress he has made does make him interesting for his development moving forward. But with Tateham being two years younger, and I think a better ball handler showcasing more potential as a scorer, I still view him as the higher upside guy of the two. Well, it is fascinating.

Paul George, Jalen Brown. earlier we mentioned Brandon Ingram, another wing guy. I mean, those are all year four look like a radically different player, right? And so we're not two year four on Jason Tatum. So next year would be the year. And I could see that happening with him, you know, where our opinion changes even more next year of Tatum. Because with those three guys that we mentioned before,

it was year four that they started to look like what they would eventually become, which is outstanding players in this league. And All-Stars, right? And Jalen may make it first. I don't know if both of them make it. Or if, because Kemba will make it, right? And Brown or Tatum and probably Brown, wouldn't you say? I mean, Kemba should make it.

And then Tatum or Brown or possibly both. I haven't really went in deep on figuring out my entire All-Star selections, but both of them should at least be in the conversation. Okay, how about this? All right. So the other question, I told you I was going to ask you, too, that was going to put you in a hard spot, okay? So the other one is,

Ben Simmons went number one that year, and those two went number two and number three, right? I think it is fair to say that the next, the other player that we have to throw in that mix is Siakam. And Seacom was drafted 27th that year. Malcolm Brogdon was 36, too. but we'll just put Siakam in that mix. If you put, if you, if I redo this draft tomorrow, where does see Ackham go?

Oh, Jamal Murray's in there too. For the exercise, let's stick to those four though. Okay. Where does Seacom go? Yeah. So with this redrafts. I know, this is hard, right? No, I want to just make sure I get this right.

We're picking for the future. Like we get this guy for another 10 years. We get to do this. We know what we. know, but we do it tomorrow. They're all just back in the league. There's all free agents, but we're having a draft with them. My guess

is the average team would probably pick Siakum one. Wow. Yeah, that would be my guess. Wow. I would assume that. And then I mean, does Simmons go ahead of Ingram and Brown?

I mean, personally, I would take Ingraham one out of any of them. You would take him over Seacom. I would take Ingham one, yeah. Okay. I think the scoring ball handling talent from Ingram is immense. All right. We've been through it with Ingham before.

All right, fine. Let's get tough. Jalen or Simmons, who would you take? You've got the third pick. So Ingram and Seacom are off the board. I would take Jalen Brown because I like my players to be able to shoot the ball. Wow. You are really down on Ben Simmons.

I'm not down on. I'm not down on Ben Simmons. We're talking about four of the 40-ish best players in basketball. I mean, Ben Simmons is a really good player. No, this draft gave us big time players.

It just got it got weak after that. It's just about your own team building philosophy, really. I'm with you. You know, that's all. I think all 40, all four of these guys are,

if not in the top 40, they're definitely top 50. But here's the thing. You know this, Kev. A year ago. that would have been thought of as insanity. Absolute insanity.

If we did this show a year ago today, you saying that you would take Jalen Brown over Ben Simmons would be deemed absolutely insane, trying for the hot take. That's ridiculous. What are you talking about? Because you've got to remember, everything was going wrong for Jalen.

He really struggled with the whole Hayward transition. Remember, he's coming off the bench. Jackie McMullen wrote that article and it was going the wrong way. And that's the thing because with Ben Simmons, you could say the same thing. Like things are going right in Philadelphia, but for Ben Simmons personally,

it's still not the ideal situation for him to be in. You would prefer him to be surrounded by shooters in a Janus-like situation. With him being the primary ball handler, being used as more of a center on roles and all that, it's not ideal for Simmons either. And if you put him in that role, who knows what he could be, right?

I mean, imagine Ben Simmons in place of Zion Williamson on New Orleans. Like, if he had the Zion role, and if Ben Simmons were coming back midseason and the way in which we would talk about what New Orleans could be, that would be fascinating.

But he's not in that situation. And even then, I don't think he's, in fact, I know, I know he's not anywhere as close as an at-room finisher as Janus is. Yonis is an all-time great shack-level finisher. Ben Simmons is average as a finisher around the rim.

And it's almost not about the shot as much as everything on the offensive end of the floor as a score, but I would just prefer a guy who fits in and maybe a bit more of a, of a, let me back up here. With Ben Simmons, the reason why I didn't have him ranked ahead of Brandon Ingram in the 2016 draft was partially because I viewed Ingram and Simmons both as elite talents, but Ingram is the far easier guy to build a team with. And with Simmons, no matter where he is, unless he improves his shot, there's always going to be the question of how you properly build a team with him. And that is not a question with Seacom, with Brown, or with Ingram.

And it still is with Simmons. And he's a very good player who can be a great player and has potential long term to maybe even be a Hall of Famer. but that one flaw, that one major flaw in addition to a less significant flaw, but still a big one with the at-room finishing are two big things that make him tough to build around on the offensive end of the floor.

And that's why I wouldn't take him above those other guys right now. All right, just a few more things. One of which is the worst team in the league by a decent margin has been the Atlanta Hawks. They are 7 and 27. Thought with the dynamic duo of Tray Young and John Collins. look, I didn't expect them to be great, but I certainly did not expect them to be the team that, like, even, look, they just won a game last night against Orlando. They had lost nine straight prior to that.

And we're talking loss two to the Bulls in that mix, got beat by 23 by the Knicks in that mix, got beat by the Cavs in that mix. So, I mean, they lose to everybody. It's not, it's not like they've had some kind of impossible schedule that pulled this off. Are you shocked that they are 7 and 27? Not that they're not good, but that they're 7 and 27 and that they're the worst by a decent margin because, you know, look, the Warriors have looked a lot more game than them recently. Yeah. I mean, they were everybody's favorite to be a playoff sleeper this year.

I like them as a playoff sleeper as well. So I am shocked. With them partially, it's because Trey Young has missed some time. but even when he has played, they have stunk. They have stunk even with Trey. Well, and there's a lot of Trey Young is a horrendous defender hive going on right now. You know, he's. Well, he is.

I know. I mean, he's averaging 28 points of game, though, when people are talking about what he does badly. Well, I mean, look, I hate when people are like, oh, why you harping on what a player doesn't do well? It's because it matters. It matters when a player doesn't do well. opponents are going to pick on weaknesses when it comes to big games, when it comes to playoff situations. And that was, look, Tray Young is a supreme playmaker.

He has shown the ability to be an elite score as well this season. However, the reason why I wasn't super, super high on him in the draft and I was wrong because of what he's become offensively was because of the defense, man. The defensive concern is real. he is a severe minus on that end of the floor and we've seen we've seen Stefan Curry get picked on on defense and he is not a bad defender he is a solid defender we see Damien Lillard get picked on and he is a better defender than Trey young Trey young is a

horrific defender here's what I'm saying and I get it he's young and he's the star of the team and so he's going to get a blame he is not the reason that they suck no that's what I'm saying that's not what you and I'm saying. And that's what nobody should say. It's just something that you think about long term with Atlanta. It's just funny.

There's 7 to 27 of people talking about Trey Young's defense. That roster sucks. It's terrible. It's a terrible roster. That's why Atlanta drafted Cam Runnish and DeAndre Hunter. Because you want to surround Trey Young with long, lengthy defenders who can cover for his weakness as a perimeter defender. That's what you did.

That's what you want to do. And that's the formula moving forward. And you hope with John Collins being back, you hope that this team can get on track over the course of the year, you hope Trey Young can stay healthy and maybe keeping him out for a longer period of time and making sure that ankle is truly 100% is important for them moving forward. Rather than rushing him back and having another Steph Curry situation here, Steph with all the ankle injuries that he had early on in his career, everybody compares Trey Young to Steph as a player with his perimeter shooting ability.

But hopefully the ankle injuries aren't also another comparison for trade. They need to get that right. Yeah. And, you know, like last year, they had some of these, you know, tougher guys on the, on the wings, like Torrein Prants, Kent Baysmore. You know, the aforementioned Dwayne Dedman a little bit earlier that we talked about. Like, they had some, their role players were, because they were not like, especially the second half of that season. You watched them. And if you had, it was a team that you thought like, hey, if your team.

doesn't play really well, they could lose. And now they look like a team. It doesn't matter if your team plays well or not. They're probably not losing to them because they're just atrocious. And they really don't have a, you know, who's playing at those wing positions. Some nights you look up and it's, you know, Vince Carter, who's 42, Jabari Parker's no defensive stalwart.

DeAndre Hunter's a rookie, Kevin Herder. Chandler Parsons. He doesn't play. He played the other night. He did? He plays, play, he's played, play, played the other night, man, 11 minutes against the bucks. Oh, my God.

Oh, I did see that news yesterday. They signed that guy, Charlie Brown Jr. What an awesome name. There's my good grief guy. That's good grief. Charlie Brown Jr. I've never heard of it. He played at St. Joe's, huh?

By the way, I'm hoping Charlie Brown doesn't steal minutes from Cam Renish, because I'm still rooting for Cam to get on track because he has not been good. It's December now. Still hasn't been good. You don't say. It's a little scary. Feels a little Marquise Crishish. I hate to say that, but I mean, 32% from the field, you're nine foot tall. How is that even possible?

32%. He's 6-8 forward and he's athletic as hell. How do you shoot 32%? It almost seems implausible. There's a lot of guys you could stick in there that could shoot higher than 32%. Like really anybody. That is shockingly low. shockingly.

All right. Last thing. You mentioned that these teams, this is a draft that is very guard heavy. I'm very excited because Saturday, Anthony Edwards is coming to my city. Yeah. Memphis is playing,

though they do not have James. That was set up to be Wiseman versus Edwards. That's why that game was set up. Obviously, James Wiseman will not be playing in the game. Tell me what I should be looking for with Anthony. Anthony Edwards. I've obviously seen highlights. I've not seen a full Georgia game yet, but the highlights I've seen are just absolutely dynamite. He looks awesome. Big Bulldog scorer, Oladipo-esque type of player. That's a comparison that comes to mind. Another guy Tom Crean coached when he was at Indiana. I love Al-a-Dipo. Yeah. With Edwards, as like a, from a scouting standpoint, let's let's find out like how his decision-making is. how his playmaking is that those are areas you want to see him improve how hard he's playing

on the defensive end of the floor and also just flat out how is he shooting the ball he's shooting only 31% from three in the year that's a number you want to see improve well i'll tell you this the game is at noon on saturday for those of you that want to check it out Memphis is still loaded with a bunch of guys that's going to end up playing in the NBA and so that'll be a really good matchup i'm excited to see him uh and Anthony Edwards. Because I've been trying to watch some college basketball recently. And, you know, so many of these guys, Wison's not playing.

Two of the other kids are overseas, R.J. Hampton and Lamello Ball. And then you've got Cole Anthony that's hurt. Like this, this has not been great top of the draft watching. Anthony Edwards is pretty much what I got left right now. Yeah. One of the comp that comes to mind for Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell. Oh. the Utah Jazz.

Just like a big, maybe a bigger version of him. And speaking of Mitchell, jazz winning eight of nine. Yeah. Looking good. And their schedule coming up is easy. Well,

and you know who, and you know who is good for him last night. Look, Gobert's average 16 rebounds over the last five games. Ingalls got back playing well. I mean, look, I'm going to let other people say that Mike Conley being out

makes Utah look like them old selves. But let's be fair. they look a lot more like last year's Utah recently and it is what it is you know yeah I mean that's what they're comfortable doing they were they were dynamite last year the team was awesome and you wonder

is that is that cause and effect Mike Conley is out and thus the Utah Jazz is fixed or is it just a coincidence and they would have been better with Mike Conley even planning on. They also got rid of Jeff Green which helps every team ever you you really hate Jeff Green He actively makes teams worse, like all the time. Jordan Clarkson has actually been good for them.

He came off the bench at the 9-10. Kind of the, you know, it's what they missed with Hood. Rodney Hood. You know, that's a guy that can come off their bench and really give them buckets. And I thought that adding Clarkson to that mix wasn't all that smart because they needed some, they needed more guys that don't need the ball. but when you watch them like last night and you see Royce O'Neill in the starting lineup and Joe Ingalls in the starting lineup and it's kind of Mitchell's show to run and he's

running that stuff for Rudy Gobert and Rudy Gobert and Rudy Gobert is getting the putbacks and grabbing every rebound and Bogdanovitch is spreading the court, you know, and then Clarkson could just come off this bench and it can be his show. And it was, it was his show. And he's dropping 20 for you off the bench. Like, I don't know. With Conley in the mix, it feels like another guy that, you know, is most successful with the ball in his hands. And I do think that I do think that there's a cause and effect here.

This is what they were last year, except they're just, you know, they're putting Bogdanovich in there basically in the favors slash Crowder role. I still think Utah needs Conley to be the guy. Everybody expected him to be entering the season. The whole reason for trading for him was the playmaking presence that he provided as a pick and roll guy. as an ISO guy, somebody who could make life easier on Mitchell, as somebody who the team could lean on in the end of games against set defenses that are locked in, that are fully game planned for them. They still need Conley to be the guy that you expect him to be. And if he's not, that's going to hurt them come playoff time. They do look better now, and that's great for them in the regular season. And it bodes well for them in the postseason. But they still need Conley. and I don't think at any point

anybody should question his importance to this team. If he's the same guy that we saw early in the season, well, you know what? He's a detriment. And that's unfortunate. But they do need him to be the guy that he was in Memphis.

And that's critical to their fortunes moving forward. But you will admit, Donovan is a ball in the hands guy, you know? But he's also a ball out of the hands guy, too. He's not a bad spot-up shooter. he's a smart, savvy cutter. It's just about creating easier chances for him.

If Conley can run, pick and roll with Rudy Gobert, attack the lane, cause the defense to rotate and kick it out to Mitchell either for a spot-up three or him attacking a closeout where then he can make a play

for himself or somebody else. Conley makes life easier on Mitchell and creates easier chances from Coach. Mitchell, like he has truly emerged this year. He's made another mini leap with more on his shoulders.

And that's encouraging. That's great to see that his making incremental progress, as efficiency hasn't declined further with more reps and more responsibility and more shots. He's still a very, very good player who can be great. But Conley is a guy who can boost Mitchell and make him even greater. And they do need him to be that guy for them to be the team that we all thought they could be before the season as a true final sleeper. and so for him to return,

I hope whatever it happens, we haven't heard an update, I haven't heard anything recently. Hopefully Conley gets back and he's himself because it's critical for that team to continue winning like they are now in a playoff setting come April, May, and June. I'm with you.

You know I love Mike Conley. I hope it fits perfectly. I do, man. I'm rooting for it. Yeah. And look, it's not going to be because he's an egomaniac or malcontent or anything else.

Like they will make that thing work as well as they possibly can. Kevin, it has been an unbelievable 2019. We had a great NBA playoffs. We had a shocking NBA finals that ended up with the Toronto Raptors, winning it all. Then we had a crazy free agency, a really good NBA draft where we haven't gotten to see Zion yet, but we've got some future stars on the horizon for sure.

And I want to take this time to thank all of you. We expanded to two shows a week this year. And thank you to all of you that have listened to us throughout the year and made 2019 great, because this will be the last show of the year and the decade for that matter. But a big thank you to all of you listeners. And I know you feel the same. Yeah. Thank you to everybody who listens to the show.

It's hard to believe that this is our third full year doing the show. We started in, I think, what was it, September or October of 2016, Chris. That's right. And we're a producer killer. We, we, Tate Fraser, Isaac Lee. And now Bobby Wagner, he's probably on his last legs. Bobby, Bobby, Bobby, we're not going to kill you as producer. And also, yeah, a big thank you to Bobby Wagner for producing the show this year.

Really appreciate that. Thank you again, everybody, for listening. It means the world to us. It's been awesome. Please go give us a rating and review on iTunes. If you dig what you're hearing. Five stars, five stars. It really helps.

And we will talk to you in 2020.