The Ringer NBA Show - Preseason NBA Power Rankings, Part 1 | Group Chat

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos are back with their annual preseason power rankings. To start the rankings off, they discuss the bottom five teams in the NBA. Brooklyn Nets (8:07) Washington Wizards (27:15) Portland Trail Blazers (40:02) Detroit Pistons (1:00:12) Charlotte Hornets (1:10:22) The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer, and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have new shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from John Crackauer to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us.

on the press box. Welcome back to group chat. I am Justin Barrier. And joining me is always big waz and the Pat Mahones of NBA podcasting. Rob Mahoney. What is up? Jesus Christ. Hail to the chief, buddy.

Yeah, I have no official comment on any of that at this time, Justin. But it's great to see both of your shining faces. I'm glad to finally be reconvened. We've been the group chat, group chat has been popping on. off, but that's not an official channel. The people, the people are privy to what we're talking about behind the scenes. I'm glad a canon event for group chat has finally reconvened here. Was, I think that makes you Travis Kelsey, and I just hope that you haven't been partying and

globe trotting too much this off season to not be at your tip top shape. I mean, I have been partying and globe trotting in the off season, but unlike Travis Kelsey, I've come back ready to play, ready to rock and roll. That's the difference, y'all. And also, it's election season. And as you guys know, I'm one of the few undecideds at this point. So, you know, I'm sampling the Greens on Breakfast Club with Charlemagne. I'm watching Kamala on MSNBC with Stephanie Rule.

I just watched Trump on Theo Vaughn. I'm trying to get all of my information gathered, man. It's going to be a, you know, life. lightning quick to November before we even know it. But I'm still gathering information, guys. Before the podcast started, Waz laid out a sequence of events that would lead him to, quote, go Alex Jones so quickly. What was your exact phrasing that led you to go Alex Jones?

But I feel like we're starting on the path. We damn sure are. Do you think your tweet will declaring who you're voting for will move markets in the same way that won Taylor Swift's? I think it's going to be close, honestly. I mean, you know, I was a big Barack Obama guy in 2012, so there you have it. They say you clinched it. No, Nostradamus situation going on here. I'm really disappointed that Kamala decided to go do the All the Smoke podcast instead of the Group Chat podcast.

I heard we were on the short list. But, yeah, it was pretty disappointing that we didn't get that. She didn't even respond to our email. I thought that was very rude. She didn't want us to hold her feet to the fire Because that's what we do here That's right Hard hitting journalism

Now that Woj has stepped aside We are the true journalist That's speaking truth to power That's right All right Any other news and notes About your summers You guys just got around

I don't know I feel like we need to like just Regroup here in group chat Because Rob Mahoney I know you were in East Asia Am I getting that right? Where were you at? I did a little Japan-Taiwan trip.

It went as expected, which is to say, I ate everything. I saw lots of stuff. The classic vacation, especially outside of America, story of I have zero idea how I ate all that much food and came back and feel pretty great. You know, I don't know what we're going. I don't know what's going on, but we need to point our journalistic hats into our nutritional landscape. We need to get a sense of like what's really going on here.

on the ground level of our fast food industry, Justin, at our grocery stores. It's not just the price gouging. What's going on? Like, why are all our fruits and vegetables so shit here? I don't understand. Well, I can't relate because I'm up here in the Pacific Northwest where we're growing our own goddamn fruits and vegetables as I am. I know I am.

Well, I am, but not well, unfortunately. I think most of my crop isn't going to make it. Yeah, it's tough. There actually have been, I need to forward them to you, a string of gardening tips that have been coming into the group chat email address. Shout to everyone who's been piping up trying to give Justin some help with his green thumb. I know we can all use a hand with that. I can't keep a single plant alive that doesn't have some kind of automated watering device

attached to it. So I feel your pain. It's tough. We got some leafy greens still going, but the rest of it might not make it. I had some rogue squirrels I perhaps need to take care of. So if anybody has any nonviolent ways to deter the school population, we can talk. I'm glad you said that. When you said, quote, take care of these squirrels, I was like, Pita's going to be all over us. We can't be having that. Well, we'll see. We'll try.

No, no. If that doesn't work, we have to do what we have to do, you know? But yeah, I think, you know, you probably just supplemented a lot of what you were doing, eating wise, with getting those steps and I imagine, very walkable city, right? Incredibly walkable city. Look, just Japan in particular, one of the elite vacation destinations in the entire world. You could spend a lifetime in Tokyo and never see the end of it. I got to say high marks for Taiwan, though. If you've never been, you've never considered it, especially getting up and down the coast,

just absolutely gorgeous scenic, oceanside, mountainside. Could not recommend it more. Great trip. So we got political advice on this pod and now we've got travel advice. So whatever you need, you're coming to the group chat pod. Do your own research, folks. about, about vacations, about food, about gardening, about everything, about, I would say especially the teams that we're going to talk about today, Justin, please do your own research.

Please do not rely on anyone to tell you why you should or should not be watching the Washington Wizards. That's right, because today is the first episode of the six-part, six-part episode extravaganza that we call the preseason NBA Power Rankings. everyone's talking about it. Everyone's been looking forward to it, asking when are you going to do the preseason power rankings? We're back, baby. So the next six episodes will be that in addition to any news and notes coming out of the NBA

because training camps and media days are starting, as recently as yesterday, I believe, or as on Monday, I think was when the Celtics convened. You will also notice that we are in your feed on a Thursday as opposed to a Wednesday because our schedule is going to change a little bit. We're going to be doing Mondays and Thursdays. You might have already been consuming us on Mondays, but we were going up probably late Sunday before. It was an early Sunday weekend recording for us. So Monday, midday, I would guess, Thursday, midday, depending on when I decide to wake up and record these episodes.

But yeah, new schedule. I think we're all very excited about it. Also watch us on YouTube. So you can see Suaz's beautiful artwork that seems to be spawning more tentacles as, as it goes along. He's a collector. Yeah, that's right. A curator, really.

Other than that, anything else? Should we get into the power rings? Let's fucking get into it. I'm ready to go complete sicko mode with y'all today. Look, just to take our listeners behind the scenes a little bit, we fought for this. We fought to start with the absolute dregs of the league, because this is the only way to do it, right? We got to go bottom up. These are some of the best pods.

That's what they're saying. So we all voted. Everyone sent their votes to me. We aggregated them, averaged them out, and then Isaiah Blakely broke the ties. Seven ties this year. It's a new world record. Yeah, and we've been doing this three to four times. So this is historic. We're going to go through every team. We're starting from the bottom up. So we're starting 30 to 26 today. Talk news and just general perception of the teams. We have an essential question for. each team and then we're going to name some guys or things. Basically, any other notes practically, basically is Rob's time if he wants to mention

anything else that we've missed. But those are the segments. That's the whole bit. Let's get to it. It's incredibly generous of you, I have to say, to allocate Rob's time. I mean, you're the, you're the QB, man. We need to get you the reps. I'm going to eject out of this podcast.

All right. So number 30, which was a tie but broken by Isaiah. So he picked the number 29 team on this list. So 30 falls to the Brooklyn Nets last team on the list. I believe Rob and I had them both on 30. Yes, that's right. Was you did not. You had them 27. So you're just expecting Ben Simmons to come back and lead them to the glory days again. That's what you're assuming. I don't know. It just felt like they had more. viable NBA players than the Washington Wizards and some of the other guys that I put ahead of them. And just to be clear, like, this is all one tier of garbage.

Like, if your team has serious aspirations this season and you see the Nets or the Wizards on your schedule, that's a W. Okay? And so, like, I didn't really, I'm not going to pretend that I really parse the difference between the Wizards and the Nets this season. But yeah, I thought the Wizards would be the worst team in the league this year because they were last year's worst team in the league. And all they did was add a rookie. At some rookies.

Then a couple of, I guess, decent vets, but it felt like they would be just as bad. And so I picked the Wizards. But the Nets, if you look up and down this roster, there's nothing really to write home about. And there's no hope, right? There's no Scoot Henderson on the roster. There's no, you know, young guy that. feels like he's up and coming and is going to, you know, is on the verge of finally killing it for this team,

unless Nets fans believe that about killing in Hayes. They just don't have any of that. And so, yeah, like, I understand why you guys felt this was the worst situation in the league. Well, there's no hope, but there's also no delusion anymore. I think this is a team that fully expects to be bad that almost has nothing to do but be bad. And that's despite some of the talent that you identified was, which is there are a lot of good, workable rotation level players here.

There's just nothing stirring the drink. This has 29th ranked offense written all over it. I think they're going to struggle with the spacing. They're going to struggle with the creation in general. I'm sure they'll get their share of offensive rebounds, but where do you really see the offense and the scoring and the actual generation of points coming from, Justin? I think Cam Thomas heard what you just said.

It feels the great disrespect. Well, I was talking about scoring at something above like a 37% field goal percentage. Or just passing to other players, perhaps. Yeah, no, I think it's going to be pretty bleak. And I think the difference between the Nets and some of these other teams is that they're still in the process of raising what they have in order to build an new. Whereas like a team like the Wizards, for instance, has already built, has kind of just like cut things down to the studs and is starting to build on top of that. they're actually adding steady veterans in order to supplement the growth of some of their young players. If anything, I expect the nuts to eject some of these quality role players that could be

better suited on contenders. And so I think that plus the power vacuum you're kind of alluding to where it's like who's driving the offense. And I think that could lead to competition between perhaps a Cam Thomas and perhaps even a contract year, Ben Simmons. And that just leads to a lot of mess. Sorry, a what Ben Simmons? Contract year, Ben Simmons. Contract year, Ben Simmons. Simmons. That's right. He's back, allegedly, and not better than ever, but like he's back. To me, that's like saying Derek Rose was in a contract year last year. That's right. I really don't think Ben Simmons, look, we've been around this, this particular carousel so many times. You didn't get sourced off of those sizzle reels, Rob? I am officially broken. I've demoted him from

season X factor to dude getting shots up in an empty gym. Like that, that is where we are. I will believe it when I see it. I've written extensively about who he was earlier in his career, and especially on defense believing in that player. Maybe there's some version of that guy still in there. I kind of doubt it. And frankly, I'm not even sure where you pencil him in with these nets because Dennis Schroeder is going to have the ball a little bit.

I'm sure that Cam Thomas will have the ball in his hands a little bit. Do you play Ben Simmons kind of as a four? Does he start? Does he come off the bench? What is he physically ready to do? Is he qualified to control? to contribute to this team in that kind of meaningful way? Or is he sort of just sort of like an apparatus

who is connected to it, who will do what he can when he can, but that's about it? Here's the thing that's frustrating about Ben Simmons is I pull up the Nets payroll here, and he is by far their highest paid player. It's not even close. And yet, when or if he's available,

Rob doesn't even know what his use is. What's he useful for? You can't even, this man is going to make 40 million this year on his team, and nobody knows what he's good for. Like, to give you just a different example, right, of a team that's going to come up here pretty soon, the Portland Trailblazers. Rob Williams is constantly hurt, sort of like Ben Simmons is,

but if he plays, you immediately know what he's going to do, how he's going to contribute, why your team will be elevated by his presence, right? Like, that's just automatically, like, he's going to be elite, rim protection. He's going to be a great role man. He's going to give you some like sneaky good creation and playmaking or whatever. Ben Simmons is like, is he a four? Can he even handle the rock? Does he guard people? It's like, what are we talking about with this dude? I know you guys aren't actually asking what the role is for Ben Simmons. And so like I assume if we want to actually answer the

question, it's probably back up point forward to a certain degree, like what he was doing last year before he got hurt, in air quotes. I don't know what is hurt and what is what anymore. Just in a more diminished level. But I do think to a certain extent, it behooves both him and the Nets at this point to at least give him a showcase. If only so the Nets can maybe foist him onto someone

at the trade deadline to try to get something in sort of like a Gordon Hayward to OKC level of trade where it's like, we'll just give you some stuff and some contracts because we just want to see if this guy could play some bench minutes. And maybe he won't do that. likely he won't do that. But I do think at least the incentive structures are aligned for both parties

to at least like throw them out there, see what's what, and then move on eventually. I think his foisting days might be over. I know that the nature of him being on in a contract year on an expiring deal, I guess lends some possibility to that. But he has so many questions as was as a fit, as an injury, like variable, variable perhaps. Like what contender is signing up for that? I don't know.

I don't even know that the Brooklyn Nets in their current state want to be. Signing up for Ben Simmons guys. I don't know that the Nets want to be that involved in the Ben Simmons project. I think the question with them is, who are you investing in in this current group that you see as being a long-term fixture with this team? Because even the guys who are pretty good here who are on the younger side, they're starting to get a little deeper into their careers. I think they're pretty definitively role players.

for the most part are high level role players. Some of them are quite good. Nick Claxton, really good defensive big. I think he alone is probably going to be a reason why this team is not atrocious on defense. Then you factor in, you know, Dorian Finney Smith, a good, good defender. Shruder can be a good pressure defender. Killian Hayes for all his limitations can be pretty solid on that end. Like they have guys who can guard.

They don't have anyone who can create. They don't have anyone who's threatening to jump and create. And I know, you know, Mikhail Bridge is regressing a little bit last season relative to his initial shot out of the canon post-trade burst of scoring was a little disappointing. I was also a little disappointed that Cam Johnson didn't pop in a more meaningful way. He looks like he's going to be purely an offball player, and he's quite good at that, and that's not really a problem in the grand scheme of things, but I had kind of hope there would be more there.

More in terms of what, though, where I'm like one dribble pull-up or maybe attacking closeouts? Like, what do you want? Okay, but like see, more catch on the second side, create a little bit, make something happen, whether it's driving all the way to the basket or dishing out. I think he's just going to be more of a probably a one dribble pull up kind of guy. He can kind of keep things moving in terms of the gears of the offense. But I just wanted like a little bit more to take him from good weak side shooter and occasional playmaker to someone who's more of a facilitator in the offense.

Yeah, I don't know. They don't have anybody on their team that could unlock that. Like, set NBA defenses are not going to let Cam Johnson, you know, dribble the ball and beat them. Like, it's just not going to happen because the Nets don't have the kind of players. And McHale Bridges never became that just attracts more defensive attention, right? Like, gets a second and third defender to shade on a McHale Bridges drives and, you know, therefore puts those guys in rotation

if he inevitably makes a pass. I just think these guys, it's just a collection of solid quality role players who could be elevated next to some of the league's best players. Like, I think Dennis Schroeder is a beautiful option for a contender as a backup. Cam Johnson is a nice 3-and-D type. You know, Doreen and Phine Smith, same thing.

Like, these guys would be beautiful complimentary pieces on real teams, you know, like I think Dennis Trudeau would be a great, like a great backup in Denver, right? Like, he would be incredible on that team. But like on the Nets, he's not going to make them good. Like, he's just not. This kind of brings us to the essential question here is like how much the Nets are going to abandon ship and kind of throw some of these quality role players overboard because they have decent contacts for someone to come in and activate some of those guys. But they do have a lot of these. guys piling up to the point where it's like not only Dorian Finney Smith, not only Cam Johnson,

but like you also have the next wave of guys where Noah Clowny kind of profiles is that type of guy for them who I think they're really high on. And I mentioned last year, I think could be pretty good in that sort of role. And so my question, Rob, is, do you think they'll deal some of these guys? Or do you think there's a world in which they keep them and hope that the next wave comes in and and is able to play around them. Because I think this is also kind of a cap new CBA question backdoor where it's like, are contenders so hamstrung or cap strap that they can go out and add these contracts?

And also like the Nets need to pay guys at a certain point. And so like, is there any harm and just keeping them around and hoping to be semi-decent more quickly? Well, there's no harm in keeping them around because the Nets are going to be bad enough to be in the Cooper Flag Derby, regardless of them. list of whether they trade these guys or not. All of that said, I see zero need to be precious with any

player on this roster. There are a lot of players I like. There is no one, I mean literally no one on the Nets roster that they should be afraid to trade. And so you have your own pick. There's nothing really to wait for except for the right deal. And so if the right deal for Nick Claxton comes up, if

the Nicks get desperate because they get tired of playing Julius Randall at the 5 in a backup capacity, then great. You know, like then you can make something happen. But I hear you on the contender bit. I think that's going to be the sort of interesting ripple effect for some of these rebuilding clubs. Because as Waz alluded to, part of the model for teams like the Nets historically is you get the guys the contenders might be interested in when they get desperate enough. A Dennis Schrooter, for example, as you brought up, if they can't trade for the Dennis Schrooter's, then what is the plan for a team like the Nets who they don't have the single prospect to like force feed reps through?

They don't have someone who's like, we're just going to give you the growth. pains this year and you're going to create way too much and it's going to be awkward and it's going to be hard, but you're going to learn something from it. That's what's kind of a bummer about them right now. Justin, I just want you to note this, you know, September 26, 2004 as a day that Rob Mahoney finally gave up on Zaire Williams. It's crazy. Okay. First of all, it's crazy. First of all, I want to say that's been a, that's been like a year-long development for me, you know. I've been, I pulled the plug. I decided, you know what?

We have shifted from the hypothetical realm to the fact that this guy has shown literally nothing as an NBA player. Nope. So those days are unfortunately over. There's enough grizzlies that Rob has in his life that he doesn't need one more, like former castaway grizzlies.

Oh yeah, come on. We're gonna get to them in due time like four pods from now because the grizzlies are going to be really good. So I'm gonna save the pro grizzlies juice. for that window. Yeah. The other part of this is that the Nets are the only team with meaningful cap space next year. I doubt that comes into play, especially if they do poorly this season.

Like even landing, for instance, a Cooper flag, a next generational prospect in the draft, I don't think is going to be a big lure for anyone that matters. And quite frankly, there aren't many free agents that matter anymore to begin with. And so I don't see some sort of like Paul George Philly situation where like a team just says no and Brooklyn takes advantage. But, like, you know, they do have some market muscle. So that's part of the calculus, I think, here. I think it would be smart to be a Utah jazz type, to try to facilitate trades for other teams

that are trying to make big moves and pick up some nice assets that you can trade when you finally build this thing into something worth bringing actual pieces on to try to win. But I think cap space can still be very valuable in that way. We talked about it way earlier this summer, right? Like if say like LeBron wasn't didn't have, wasn't dead set on becoming, you know, the next like Bob Iger or whatever and own an NBA team

and was like, you know what? I'm going to force my way to some team without cap space. Like the jazz would have been well positioned to take on the assets from that team. LeBron was trying to force his way to and facilitate that so that a guy like LeBron or somebody else or Paul. George or somebody else could move to a team that didn't have cap space and just get, you know,

nice little goodies for being the team that facilitates that, right? Like if the net's smart, a dumping ground. Yes, a dumping ground. I mean, Jersey, if you will. Is it the dumping ground or is it like the one friend you have with a pickup truck? You know, it's like, I need to help you get this stuff to your new place. Exactly. Can't pay him in pizza, though. It has to be millions of dollars. One big thing, I mean, this is less of a big thing because the nets aren't expected to be good and I suspect it'll be buried along those lines. But first year for Jordy Fernandez is the head coach of the Nets taking over for Kevin always at this point or.

This is their literal head coach. Well, you know, I don't know. That's not naming a guy. Jordy Fernandez enthusiast. But yeah, he did a great job with Team Canada. So I can't wait to see his encore. It's uncalled for. Let's go.

Boehack's Team Canada. Yeah. Kevin Oliver was awful. And I say this as a true blue Yukon apologist, like he was really bad. That was not going to stick. And I think Jordy Fernandez very respected developmental pedigree, which is what the Nets need.

If not for the high level prospects that we wish they had, and I'm sure we'll have soon, then for the Noah Clowny types, then for the Daryon Sharp types. These are guys who need to be brought along and need to be a meaningful part of the rotation. And so the fact that the Nets can take a full step back this year, no Kyrie drama to worry about,

No Kevin Durant situation to worry about. I guess we'll see what drama Ben Simmons has in store for this year. But they know who they are. They know how bad that they're going to be. And because of that, I think there's some freedom to actually give these younger guys a little more leash to explore their games. Listen, Sean Marks loves this shit. Like, no fan of the Brooklyn net, if there are still them,

like is going to enjoy this season. But Sean Marks is very much anticipating what is going to happen this season. This is his time. Absolutely locked in for one of the worst teams in the league. Any guys or things we need to name? This is a really small one, but if you're the Brooklyn Nets, why not bring back Dennis Smith Jr.? Who's currently dangling as a free agent?

Not a perfect player, but a decent backup guard. Certainly a guy who can get in your jersey on defense, I think has shown some improvement as a shooter. I would think would be a guy you could dangle over some of these contenders on a budget at the day. deadline and say, you know, Dennis Smith for a second. Like, is that a thing that we can get done? Is that a way to get some extra capital? In the meantime,

you have another pretty solid guard in your rotation. I'm surprised no one signed him yet. Yeah. I don't know what's going on exactly there. That probably is him feeling like, because, you know, and that's the sad truth about it, is once you sign, you know, basically one or two in a row of these minimum

contracts, the league basically starts to view you as a minimum guy. Yep. And, you know, if you got some type of pride about it's like, come on, like, I'm worth more than a minimum salary. And I think Dennis Smith, Jr. is worth more than a minimum salary. Like, you wonder some of the reputational stuff and some of the difficult.

That, to be fair, happened early on in his career. I don't know if that stuff is still dogging him, but he should be on somebody's team right now. I'll be shocked if by training camp he doesn't find a roster to be on. All right, let's move along here. 30 minutes in. We've always talked about the Brooklyn Nets. Rob Summer. Number 29, the Washington Wizards, who really have become the team where you're like,

I haven't seen this guy in a while. I wonder what he's up to. He's like, he is definitely on the Washington Wizards. They sign Jonas Valenciunis. They sign Malcolm Braggan to be adults in the room. They signed Sadeek Bay, which I kind of went over my head. I'm glad to see that he's still kicking around here. Otherwise, just a sea of young guys, Rob, Alex Sar, Bob Carrington, coming via the draft and then obviously Jordan Poole and some of the holdovers for last season. We were a little bit mixed on on the voting here. I had them second

to last. You had them third to last. Rob had, uh, was at them last. But I think we could all agree. Pretty putrid team. Yeah, it's going to get real dark. Yeah. Real, real dark. The fact that they could have three rookies in the rotation plus Balakulibali who didn't even get to finish his rookie here, it's going to, it's going to be some rough times. It's going to be some bad

basketball. I can't say I'm forward to watching it maybe there's some like very micro things here that are worth attention or worth investing in but they just look like a really bad really mismatched team and that is not a good basketball product yeah like they're trying and they're doing a developmental situation i think the brogden and valentuna signings makes sense in the sense that it can't just be a free for all in the locker room right like there has to be some accomplished NBA players like setting a tone for your young guys who you think are going to carry you into the bright future of the Washington Wizards, right?

But like, where does Jordan Poole fit into that equation? Coming off the bench. Another guy who is one of your highest paid players. If not, isn't he the highest paid player on this team? I just wonder how they manage that. Just on an emotional level. everybody on the team, what their expectations are, how they feel about what they're expected to contribute to this squad this year. And so it just feels like a mess. And like when I look up

and down this roster, I'm just like, this is the worst team in the NBA. They're very bad. I think the one thing they have going for them, though, is by bringing in the steady veterans, they do have a structure in place to move forward at this point. I think the one thing that's interesting about them and in comparison to some teams that are building from the ground up is it seems like they're not going the stacking picks route. They do have some future draft picks, kind of those like really complicated, convoluted, protected picks from the Sons as a result of the Bradley Beal trade. But I thought it was interesting that in trading Denny Obdea, which is interesting of itself because that guy's only 23 years old. We'll talk about him with the

Portland Trailways. Their best players last year. Yeah, 100%. They got another draft pick in in order to draft Bob Carrington. And so it seems. like they're more interested in bringing young guys in as opposed to maybe stacking assets. So it's more of like a developmental thing rather than a Sam Presti style, let's play the math of the league, which I thought was mildly interesting. It could just be the circumstances of the trading Obdia. But it seems like they're really invested in like giving young guys chances and playing through it. Yeah, I think you want to give them chances, but this is a team that could really benefit from slowing down.

This is usually the time of year where we're trying to rev everybody up. Everyone wants to play at a faster pace. The Wizards played way too fast last season and gave, in some ways, way too much freedom on the break to guys like Jordan Poole to basically do whatever they want and ran rough shot over what should be at least a functional offense. So bringing in Malcolm Brogden and Jonas Valanchunis, those are adults in the room, as you alluded to Justin. They're also guys who naturally have a slower pace of play.

And I don't think the Wizards are going to be a good. half court offense, but you've got to rein in some of the habits here for these young guys before they get out of control. Like, Bub Carrington is a really promising bucket getting prospect, but you want to give him a little bit of structure to work and a little, a little bit of restraint so that he can figure out how to operate within that. So why don't we get to the essential question here? Because I think this is an interesting way to organize the rest of this conversation.

Name one reason to watch more than five Wizards games next season. And I chose five specifically, because I think that's the marker for. for professional obligation or morbid curiosity. So it goes beyond like, oh, Jordan Poole is doing weird, check in a fool style things. And like, oh, I need to check in on this and that guy just because I need to make sure that I'm not missing some sort of like come up all of a sudden, like Kulibali for instance.

So more than five wise, what is going to drive you to turn on the Washington Wizards at 7 p.m. Eastern time. so automatically you're taking comedy off the table. I don't think necessarily. Not necessarily, but yes. You'd have to be real sicko to enjoy that much comedy, that much dark comedy. I think there's a reasonable chance that in an...

Did you miss the Jordan Pool memes last year? This is what I'm saying. Yeah. In the way that Andre Drummond and Torrey Craig tried to dunk the same ball, I think there's a decent chance that Jordan Pool and Bob Carrington try to catch the same pass and shoot the same 30-footer at the same time. Like that is on the table. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, outside of Kula Bali, who I think has legitimate NBA size and athleticism, like he is an elite athlete. So in terms of trying to see if he can harness any of that at all this season, like that, that would be cool, cool to watch, right? So that's the only person on this team I'm interested in, again, besides Kyle Kuzma, who I've spent countless, you know, time on this podcast saying, like, that dude's a winning player. I wish he was on a playoff team, man. Like, I wish he could get, you know, be getting 27 minutes a night on a team that's actually trying to achieve something.

You know, like, just imagine what he would have been able to do on a Dallas last year, you know. Well, that's his fault. Well, I know. You know, with that, with that cast and crew, but like, outside of that, you know, outside of that, The only person I'm interested in, honestly, is Kulibali. Because even with Saar, you know, I'm reminded of the, of the Trey Young quotes of his now rookie teammate. And I think that all of that applies to Saar, honestly. Like, nobody's thinking he's going to be some incredible NBA star someday.

It's like, hopefully one day he'll become an elite defensive big, you know, clean up boards, be a great role, man. And that would be nice. Coolaballi has to be the guy, right, Justin? Like this is the shining prospect I think is going to draw a lot of people's attention. And in a way, Waz, I wonder if we're going to have

that same conversation about him that you're talking about with Kuzma of when he does get a little deeper in his career. Is he going to be the guy we pine for on a contender? Is he going to be the guy we pine four on a team

that has a little more going forward if the Wizards can't get there? Kulabali, super interesting, obviously an awesome athlete. I would like him to take a step from athlete to basketball player this season. I think,

did he dribble? more than a hundred times last year or should he have dribbled more than a hundred times last year I think is an open question a lot of the ball skills still common along very slowly but obviously a blur in transition a guy who could like get a nice dunk every two to three plays sort of guy. Super exciting. I don't know

what he is right now. Yeah. I could definitely see a pathway for him being a really interesting player. I think he's going to be a really cool, really versatile kind of in between player. I don't think he's ever going to be a ball dominant start but there's something I hear you about the ball skills, there's something intuitive about the way he moves and the way he navigates the court

that's like, this guy sees where he's supposed to go and how to navigate things. And from that, it gives you a lot of room to grow. Which direction he wants to grow in and ultimately does, I think is going to be probably a byproduct of what kind of opportunities the Wizards have for him, both this season and going forward. I don't know.

He's the classic guy where when you watch him, it's a way better experience than when you look at the results on paper. where it's like he tends to fall when you look at the numbers. It's like into that trap of the supreme athlete who just hope develops all these skills. And we've been down that road before. But watching him is a pretty enjoyable experience. I agree. He's on my list of reasons to watch more than five games, along with SAR and Carrington,

obviously just being two lottery picks. The other reason I have down here, the E.T. window, the first window for NBA games, absolute dog shit. Yeah. Not good. And I will watch Wizards games for no other reason than they are just on and they are playing an interesting team. That's probably the best selling point, unfortunately. What a competitive advantage in the broadcasting space.

That's right. By the way, just so you guys was so funny how things turn around in a year, I was at this spot in Brooklyn last year around probably this time called Pecking House. It's the chicken spot on flat, but shouts to chef Eric. He's actually a fan of what we do up here at group chat. And one of the workers, you know, as he's talking to me, he's like really excited about the wizards last year. He's like, yo, we just got Jordan Poole in there. And it's like, oh, we got the rookie. And it's like this fresh new start.

And we're finally like not like chasing the seventh seed. And like, you know, we're building towards something. And I was back, I think, like two months after that. Or no. And the tune had completely changed. So it was just crazy how these things, like, just from one year could feel like hopeful. But I think it's still hopeful in a way that, like, they're not chasing their tail anymore. They've brought some young guys in.

They're building towards a better future. But, like, man, they are on step one, firmly on the path to being relevant again. Yeah. Any other guys? I mean, we probably need a Lisa Corey Kispert shout out, given that I would think he's a presumptive starter. I would think. And he looked like an NBA player last year, right?

Like sometimes, you know, we get these rookies, killing Hayes comes to mind. And the second they get on the court, it doesn't matter that they were a lottery pick. It's like, oh, this guy doesn't have it. Or maybe he doesn't have it yet, right? If you want to be generous about it. but I felt like Kisbert looked like a guy who's going to stick in the NBA last year pretty immediately. And so that's something nice as well.

I think it's interesting because I do think Poole's rightful place should be as an energy score off the bench. He seemed most comfortable in that role later on in the season. Perhaps that's because he was going against other bench players and that just made things easier for him. But I don't know. Does that overlap too much with now what Carrington wants to do? So you have to start Poole and bring Kisbert off.

off the bench. It's a little bit of a janga going on. Yeah. Or Carrington might have to wait a little bit and earn some reps kind of coming up the back end of the rotation. I think that's definitely a possibility. The front court is not great. I think Saar is going to get fed minutes by default. And that's where I kind of, I wish Sadiq Bay were healthy. I like the idea of the Wizards bringing him in, but

him being out with the ACL, like I don't think we're going to see any of him this year, maybe a tiny bit towards the end of the season. I wish that the Wizards had something more to work with behind Saur and Valanchunis. I just don't really trust the guys that they have. Again, shout out to Tristan Vukk. Well, I was going to say Tristan Vukchievich. Oh, whoa.

We're going deep naming some guys. Yeah, you know. I didn't even know this guy existed. Oh, he earned naming some guy's status in the absolute dregs of the late season push that the Wizards were making. Push. Wow. Calling that a push is funny.

is so. A stumble, a trip, a step on a rake, whatever it ended up being, he was involved in it. Wow. All right. So they have budget

Vucevic coming off the bench. But yeah, Bagley looked okay in 10 games late in the season, which tends to be a theme with him where he just plays well enough toward the end in garbage time where you're like, huh,

maybe there's still something here. Apparently our guy Vladay is out here still hoping that he, could overtake Luca and that decision. So maybe there's something we're missing? Probably not. Respectfully, no thank you. I'm good on Marvin Bagley.

Thanks. All right. Number 28, my Portland Trailblazers, they also tied with the team that's coming up ahead of them at 27, but they fall to 28 because Isaiah Blakely did not believe in them. I have to say, the one thing I've been startled most by by being here is how much people fucking love Damien Lillard. Like, you think you know how much Portlanders love Damian Lillard.

It's like 10 to 20 to 30 times more to that to the point where like he was boxing in Tigard, which is like a suburb of Portland like 15 minutes from downtown, whatever. And he was, that clip of him watching USA in a boxing ring was there. And that was more excited that Portland fans have been than they are perhaps about some of the players on their team. It's just like it's very, very much still fervent here for Dane. So this is something that I was trying to communicate to folks during the Dane melodrama situation when they were trying to trade them. We're like, you know, a lot of this smarter, I put that in heavy air quotes, NBA commentariat previously was like, yo, first of all,

they should have been traded this guy, right? Like they never should have given the extension, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. Like, the co-calculated truth is that they should have been gotten off of the Dane deal a while ago. But the reason that they didn't is because of what Justin just mentioned. In a small market, Dane Lillard was selling out games there. 41 times a year. That shit matters. There's not a lot of people in our league who does that on a consistent basis.

And Damian Lillard in Portland was one of the people who actually did. And I think what you're talking about, Justin, just speaks to that. Like, the fans felt a deep connection to him. And he delivered fun basketball for these people. Like, it's one thing to go to your NBA arena and watch the Portland Trail. But this is a whole other different thing where you got to do with it to watch the Pistons of recent vintage. Like, it's just completely different. It makes all the difference.

And I don't mean that just in a spiritual sense, in a hard dollars for. sense way. Dane Lillard was driving that for them. Yeah. The Portland fan base, too, I will say this, having been in that arena when it is absolutely rocking, which is really anytime they're even remotely good, that is a fan base that is looking for a reason. If you give them any reason, they are basketball voracious,

they will show up, the entire arena will be shaking. Like, it is a good basketball city that isn't being given a good basketball product. And that's going to take time. There are at least the kinds of outlines of prospects here that you can sell yourself on, that you can get excited about, that you can understand you can invest in, I'm going to ride or die with the Scoot Henderson experience.

You know, I think that's a valid place to come as a fan of a lottery team. And it gives you something to buy in on the ground floor of what you hope will be a Dame Lillard-like rise, although he was pretty great right out of the gate. I just wonder with, as we chart the future of the Blazers, I know we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. how much can this group of players or any bare bones of it really coalesce? Like how much here is complimentary? So I say this with deeper regret and sadness,

but I've talked myself into the Portland Trailblazers going forward. It took a couple weeks, but I'm already here. You know what? This is kind of a bummer. Was that in the HOA? Like, was it a requirement? Yeah, exactly. Came with the house.

I kind of lament that the league is so deep. nowadays because I think in a long ago time, like 10 to 15 years ago, there would be like a really fun TMC style team where you could keep scoot sharp and Simons and just be all offense and be fun and just like make the eighth seat. And that would be enough, especially in Portland because as you alluded to, like they really get behind their team as whatever that team may be. Unfortunately, I just think like at this point, that's not viable in an NBA, especially in a Western in conference that is now 14 deep. I think Portland will probably be 15. And so it makes sense to think long term as opposed to this season just in general. But I think the big issue with this

team at this point isn't so much the players that they have is just that they're super young. And that yeah, there is something here that I can kind of see nowadays. But I do think they're going to have to play if not through this season, maybe next season to even get to the starting point of where some of these 20, 21-year-old guys are going to be able to compete on a high level. Well, so they're super young. Last season in particular, they had a pretty muddled roster. I think it's still somewhat muddled, but it's been streamlined a little bit. Like, trading Malcolm Brogden, I think helps get Scoot Henderson some high-value reps,

get him starting games more often, things like that are useful. But so if you're young, if you have this muddled roster, if you have no role certainty, you end up in a place where there's just no sense of natural order. And so that everything you're making is either kind of, pre-programmed, what is the set we're trying to run offense, or it's very hard at the end of the clock. And that's where the Blazers ended up. And it's why they were a horrendous offensive team. So the vision of them as like a running gun. What if we put all these three guards on the floor and unleash them idea? All those three players are really talented offensive prospects.

But Simons is really the only guy who's a ready-made offensive contributor right now. Yeah. And I think another problem, too, that they have is that I don't think they're well-served as Simons being an off ball guard. Interesting. I think one, he's a better point guard right now than Scoot is. That's true. Right. And so not only is he your best, like, actual creator,

he's also your best playmaker, which is just wild to say, considering where this guy has come from. But I think Scoot, like, in order to become a great point guard, he has to play. He can't watch from the bench. He can't film school his way. to becoming a great point guard.

And I think that's the difficulty. I think the nature is pushing them towards a scoot and shade and sharp back court because it just makes sense instead of having two under six foot three guys in your back court again like you did for the last decade. But Simons' actual talent is making that decision difficult because if you're a coach,

like he played so much better than the other two guys last year. So what do you do? besides move him. So I think that's the difficulty. He's a legitimate on-ball juice and he would be better served in an environment that could take advantage of that

while mitigating his pretty significant defensive issues. I mean, take defensive rating for what you will, but out of a 572 players that charted last year, he was 550 in defensive rating last year. He's particularly bad on an army

bad defense. But I think you hit the point there was. I think Scoot's problem, if you want him to be anything for you is you need him to develop the nuance of his game. I went back and watched Kyle Mann's video about him going into the draft two years ago. And he suggested his second G League year with the Ignite was kind of the year where he went from trying to build an NBA body to like trying to think the game a little bit more. And I think he's still very much on that journey. Because if you look at

some of the issues he had last year, it was very much of a player who seemed to be able to get things based on his physicality, because he is very strong, he has a quick burst. But now he's going up against NBA level players. And it seemed like he didn't know how to navigate that. That's why he only shot 46% at the rim. That's why his turnover percentage was second worse in the NBA last year. And so he's making a lot of typical NBA mistakes. And I think you want to give him another year, if not probably a little bit more, to be able to sort all that stuff out on the fly. Yeah, I mean, he didn't have great spacing to work with either, which as a young point guard who's trying to feel the stuff out.

That's a really hard way to attempt to do it. Justin, where do you fall in the Simon's bit? Because, was, I actually am kind of leaning more in the opposite direction at this point with him, where I agree, Simons is their best point guard now, clearly, the best playmaker now, the best on-ball creator now, without a doubt. But ultimately, when you think about his career, he is such a great second-side guy. And he's flat-out one of the best shooters in the world, especially catching and shooting. And so it's like, I want to harness the catching.

shoot part of his game, but I don't want to do it at the expense of the creation that he's been able to show these last couple years. And I don't really know how to manage that with this group. So to me, well, I agree with you, but like to me,

if I'm, if I'm Simons, right, I want to get to a place where I'm a full-time point guard. Because if you get to, if you become a full-time point guard, you get to get the day. Darious Garland contract, right, instead of the Jordan Poole contract, which is what he got, right? Like, there's a difference in perception when you're the guy who can man the helm of an offense and you shoot it rather than you're the spark pluggy, you know, I get to shoot whenever the ball is swung to me kind of got.

So I think it's like competing interests in a way where it's like maybe that would be bad. best served for the development of the young guys on the team. But if I'm Simons, I'm like, I'm already better than these guys at this. And ultimately for my career, it's better for me. I think he needs to be the point guard, but not the primary creator, which is why the Orlando option is so attractive because it will almost take all of the different things that he can do, but only give him certain opportunities to do everything at once.

So he could play off of Paulo, he could run a pick and roll with Paulo. He could run your second offense when Paulo's on the bench or he's hurt. I just like, he needs that opportunity because I agree with Waz. He's like, he's legitimately dynamic with the ball. I thought he got a little bit better navigating, finishing at the rim, which was always a kind of a little issue with him. He's also one of the game's best shooters. And like, so if you just need him to stand out there with KCP and create space for some

of those big Hulkking creators in Orlando, I think he'd be great at that. Because I think the other issue is not only is he duplicative of scoop, but like I also think Sharp kind of steps on his territory a little bit because I think we're kind of bearing the lead here. I think Sharp's the best player on this team. I think he's long term, probably the best prospect. I think they would be best serve if Sharp isn't their best player. I think like they need one more crack at the top of the lottery. Maybe it's a Cooper flag. But Sharp is legitimately like a three level type of score who could potentially come off pin downs, but also create some offense for himself. And I think like there's a way where like scooting Sharp, as long as you have enough defense to

mitigate some of those complications that they present, like, that could be pretty sick. Which, do you think he's their best player right now? Oh, not right now, but I think like... Like the prospect you would want to invest in. Yes, he's the person on the team who, if he reached the ceiling of what is in him, he's the best player, right? Most important to the franchise, yeah. Easily, right?

Like, the kind of, you know, dare I say it, Aunt Edwards type, you know, bigger, wing. handles it, shoots it, and can dunk on people's heads, right? But he's got to show that. We saw there were glimpses last year, by the way, where I was like, hold on, is this thing happening where he's like splitting double teams on pick and roll and ended up at the rim? And I'm like, wait a second.

Is this going to finally happen for him? But he's got to show it this year. This is the year, man. Like, it's kind of like year three, if you're not, you know, knocking on the door of being a serious scoring threat, efficient with moderate efficiency right we're not asking you to be some efficiency killer right now because even you know before like last year like aunt edwards was never even an efficiency

killer yet it's like last year he started getting to that and so like just show that you can get like close to being pretty efficient on high volume of creativity like you know we'll see i think we're kind of backdooring it justin but do you just want to get into the essential question Yeah, it's just how many of these guards of the three that we mentioned, Scoop Sharp, and Simons make it to the final version of that team. I think that there's a pathway to keeping Scoop and Sharp, but Simons is probably best served on a different team. It definitely could be. I think realistically, it's maybe two of these guys, but probably just one of these guys. Could be. Not because they couldn't. Not because they couldn't develop together. And especially when you think about all three, I think the issue is, yes, the size. 6363 and 6.6. That's very small. I think you can, but, you can.

build a great team that way, but it's sure as hell not easy. My bigger concern is one of those three, if they are going to stay together, has to develop a Swiss Army knife complementary skill set. Because you can't have three guards who are not good defenders, who don't rebound, who aren't high-level facilitators, who keep the ball moving. Like, you're going to run straight into the wall if that's the way that all three of those guys are playing. So a question, Rob, is, does guarding either a point, like, if you're going to play, excuse me, if you're going to play 40 big minutes a night for a real team. Somebody in the back court has to either be able to guard point guards or wings.

Like you can't play two people 37 minutes a night and neither one of them can guard a point guard or a wing full time, right? And that's the ultimate question of these three guys right here to me. Yeah. I think drafting Klingin helps to a large degree because he's just a backline eraser. Yeah. Well, for a lot of reasons. But getting Avdia in there, also a very good defender, Jeremy Grant for as long he's going

to be on the team, also very good defender. So there's enough on the back. This has to be the year Grancis traded. You would hope like again? It's just like his contract, man, is just, it seems pretty difficult. I don't know what team can really jam that into their books without sacrificing a pretty significant player in their own right. And so I agree with you.

But I would like scoot to up it on the defense. event, especially if some of the other more nuanced parts of his game aren't coming around. I really think it's related to the offensive side. If Sharp shows himself to be the main focal point offensively, then it falls on scoot to really pick it up on that end. And he is physical despite his lack of his height. But if it's the opposite way, then maybe Sharp should use his supreme athleticism to kick it up with a little bit more energy on both then.

I think that's something that he needs to really focus on this year, is like being present despite he had the abdominal strain, but he needs to be present on both sides every single game. I think it speaks to the odyssey of this kind of rebuilding, though, that Simons is the best player and he may be the odd man out.

Just by virtue of the timeline and the skill sets and everything else to work here. And that's even accounting for the fact that Scoot Henderson, to this point, has not shown evidence that he is a high-level NBA player.

No. We haven't seen it. It's not to say he won't ever be that. There's clearly a lot of work in progress there. You could see him working through things over the course of the year. He was not put in a very good position to begin with. I'm sensitive to all those things.

Got glasses. Tough adjustment. He had to correct a vision. It's a very real thing. The LASIC struggle is real. I just think if I'm charting the future of the Blazers, Scoot is young and talented, and he still needs to prove why he's the guy or even a guy.

Because right now he is a prospect who is anointed by virtue of where he was drafted and the pedigree and not by how he played as a rookie. That's for sure. Yep. Shooting did get better. as the year went on, which is huge. 35% from 3 after January 1st, 29 before that.

But you're right. It was kind of a mess. I think the one thing in his case is that a lot of guards of that ilk, the fast blurs, physical drive into the teeth of defense point guards tend to follow this path where it's like first season,

a total mess. Brussels Westbrook, the shining example of that, I don't think he'll be Westbrook, but like, there's a track record at the very least that you can lean on and be like, let's get him another year or two.

Yeah. Any other guys we want to mention here? We are the nation, a domination. It's a wrestling reference, man, for my man, Van Cruz. He's got to go. DeAndre Aiton is, he's not long for this team. You don't think, Justin? I don't see where he fits in.

I mean, I see where he thinks he fits in, which is like running an certain amount of post-ups. Over Clinton, clinging? Excuse me? Probably. He's going to start, but at some point this season, Klingan will make a real push, I would think. And I say that less about Klingan being some unbelievable prospect and more that it seems, based on my perception and reporting, everyone is looking for an excuse to bench D'Andre Aiden at basically all times. That seems to be his whole vibe.

So I look forward. Like, if Robert Williams plays, like, that's a pretty sick one, two with Klingin. Yeah. If Robert Williams plays. I know. Right now. That's sad story. Do we think, so Denny Avdiya, we mentioned that Portland got him from the Wizards,

really good player who I think we like a lot. I assume he kind of buries, or at least complicates the roles of guys like Matisse Thiable and Tumani Kamara, right? Like those were, those were, I'm not saying that's a huge loss, but I will say one of the few things that Portland did well last season was force a bunch of turnovers and those guys are both pretty critical to that. Denny is not quite that kind of defender, though he is active. not a huge trade-off, but I think one worth flagging.

Dude, Matisse Tybal is 27 years old. Like, he kind of is who he is. Oh, definitely. Like, if he hasn't made himself into the kind of player that demands rotational minutes, then that's just what's going to happen. His minutes are going to be in flux this season because that's who he's proven himself to be.

Yeah. Yeah, I think if you have one concern is that some of the bets they've made on wings haven't really panned out, like on top of that. Like Chris Murray looked not great at Summer League, which is tough because he's an older second year player at this point. Ryan Rupair was I think the youngest player in the league last year. So, but he still hasn't really turned into anything there.

Kamara, we'll see. Totally interesting 3-and-D prospect. Obviously, our guy, Duop Reith is out there somehow. Of course. Just begging for minutes piled now behind three other centers. So I hope like they'll be able to find stuff for him. Donald Banton also interesting. Now we're literally just naming guys.

Jabari Walker, come on. Let's go. There's just a lot of guys on this team. A lot of guys. So Jabari Parker in Barcelona, by the way. I saw him on vacation while I was on. He was not on vacation.

He plays for FC Barcelona. But you ran into him? At where? Soho House? Where were you? Exactly. The Soho House of Barcelona. Look at that.

He was on the rooftop. Yeah, yeah. We was on a rooftop. Stop. A part of me wanted to say hi, but it was just like, I was like, I'm not doing it. We're the only two black people here. I just don't feel like doing that. The basketball thing. Did he look sad? No, he was chilling. He was chilling. He was with a little, he had a little party, like four or five people just hanging out. That's good. You want good things for Jabari Parker and Jabari Walker. Yes. Well, Justin, as someone who's about to experience your first Portland winter, are you worried about getting iced into your neighborhood the way that DeAndre Aiton did? This guy's from 10. I hear the ice is good. tough. Let me tell you. It's real. Yeah, it seems like the city is used to rain, but anything beyond

that, the snow, the ice, I think things tend to stall out in a very complex way. At the Home Depot over there? Apparently not. All right, let's move along. Number 27, the Detroit Pistons, which I have to say, pretty disappointed that we find ourselves here, still in the dregs of the league for the Detroit Pistons. I know they're one of the worst teams in the NBA. last year. But they added a lot of guys, Rob. Unfortunately, they still find themselves here, what? Fourth worst is where we have them. And I don't think that's unfair. Certainly not. They needed a lot of new guys. I think they needed a lot of rotation change. We all know that they needed shooting. And we saw what even a tiny bit of it could do for them when they got Simone

Fontechio. Like, even that helped. So getting Malik Beasley, whatever I may think about the rest of the contours of his game, getting even Tobias Harris and, you know, the coin flip of Tim Hardaway Jr. Yes, he's a better shooter than beef stew. I'm sorry. This is the benchmark. This is what we're working with. Any more spacing helps. Also, you know, maybe a coaching change from Bonnie Williams to J.B. Bicker staff. I would hope can get the pistons a rotation pattern that makes a little bit more sense for their personnel. But that's also pretty hard to do with the guys that they have. There's, there are some combinations that work. There's also the question of like Asar Thompson, and Ron Holland, for example,

can they spend a single minute on the court together? I think not. And those are two very important prospects to the development of this team. Yeah, well, this kind of hits at the question that we have here, which I think is a good entry point for here. It seems like there's almost two visions for the team here

where you want to get shooters next to Cade. And so Tobias Harris, Fontechio, those sorts of guys. Great. Just surround them with shooters, pick and roll. Let's see what Cade is. On the other hand, not only do you have Holland and Thompson, you also have Ivy who maybe doesn't fit that sort of mold to play off of the kid. And it's already been sort of grumbling about his role in minutes and, you know, where they're like whether he's getting to have the ball in his hand.

So yeah, definitely something to monitor. So how do we make sense of this? Are you saying let's just empower Cade to be the best version of Cade and we'll develop those other guys? Or are you starting Ivy just because you have to, because he was a high. highly drafted lottery pick. Let's see where he is. So with Ron Holland, who's just a rookie, it's not going to matter what kind of minutes he's getting, right? It's going to be like, all, rook, whenever you get a chance, like, you try to figure it out. I think the Ivy thing becomes complicated because when they're

really trying to put a real team out there, it should be Toby Harris, Tim Hardaway, Jr., Kate Cunningham, Duren, and, you know, probably another shooting type. That's, probably what it should be. And maybe they'll be like, you know what? Let's put in another ball handling type so that Kate Cunningham isn't so heliocentric. And, you know, and Kate Cunningham is not a horrible shooter. And we let Ivy do more.

I don't know. Like, maybe they will be creative enough to make that work. We've seen teams be able to make those kinds of dynamics work. You know, I think Luca and Kyrie and that, which is like a way different example. But I think when people envision what Cade can do, it is in, you know, a lesser extent of what Luca does for Dallas, like orchestrating every possession and being like the guy that sprays it out to shooters.

I just, you know, you hope you have a coach. It's not just that he can design an offense that makes sense with these pieces, but can also get buy-in. That's the part we don't talk about because it's the, the most like sort of ephemeral, right? Like, how do you even quantify a coach getting people to believe in a team concept, right? And not just think like, look,

I'm working on my second contract type of thing. And so who knows if they have the right kind of guys and pieces and chemistry to make that work? But I think that's the central conflict of this team right now, aside from the fact that they've been, they lost 40 games in a row last year at one point. Yeah. Right? It's the two, quote unquote,

young guys don't feel complimentary to one another. And that's the thing where, to the question that you were asking, Justin, if you have a way to maximize Cade, that is the single most important development in the franchise. And if you can find a way to do that and you have the structure to do that, you should do it. In a way, like, he plays with a ton of patience.

And I see what you're saying about the Luca Compois. Like, Cade has a talent for heavy manufacturing. And he can do some similar things. And I think we even saw some growth as far as getting to, his spots a little more effectively at an NBA level, and certainly shooting from deep at an NBA level. Those are important developments for him. But when you play with that much patience

and you don't have spacing and shooters, the patience works against you. Like the defense just constricts as you try to navigate. As you do your little snake act through the lane, nobody's buying. Nobody's buying that you're kicking out to a Sart Thompson. And so if you can get the shooting on the floor, that not only works really well for Cade,

but works really well for the trajectory of your team. Yeah, Ivy, I think is the interesting one here because Asar does so much off the ball on defense that you got to play him. And if anything, like I could see him starting for that reason. He's just an incredibly helpful player in so many different ways. Ivy has always been a tricky one for me where it's like his type of player, the athletic, but not shooting on ball guard seems like a really tough fit in the NBA. And especially when you already are empowering a primary creator who needs the ball in his hand into spam pick and rolls.

Like, it's different when you have Scoop because Scoot is the one driving the action, both now and hopefully in the future. Ivy doesn't really have a pathway to that. So you're already kind of diminishing what you want from him, which is to be a creator. And so he really needs to take a step forward either as a shooter or I think he might be destined for another team or coming off the bench because I agree with you guys. I think Cade first and foremost should be the guy. And I almost wonder if changing coaching staffs changing more importantly,

the front office gives them a license to be like, we didn't draft Ivy. So like, let's just see what works and really go Cade Thompson and we'll see with Holland. The Holland thing, though, is curious. It's like, why would you just compound the issue that you already have with another type of that situation? But I guess it's a longer term prospect. Yeah. I think you're rolling the dice. Like, Cade is the guy you're betting on.

Every other slot you're saying there's an open competition for minutes. Literally bet on the guy with $300 million or whatever it was. Certainly did. But he has the talent. for it. And I think the other part of this that we're walking around, if Cade works as a point guard, all of a sudden your whole lineup is like 6-6-6-9 plus Jalen Duren. That's a really fascinating place to be. All of that said, holy shit, do the flashes from Jaden Ivy look good. Like, the flashes are unreal. I think he has some of that shade and sharp kind of, what did I just see?

Like, what did I just see from this guy? How did he make that play? Even sometimes on crazy stepback jumpers that are not necessarily his forte, but there is a panache and a skill level and a physical coordination with him that are very impressive. He just needs to be able to string it all together a lot more consistently. I'm glad you brought out the defense, though, because this does have the makings of like a budget Houston from last year where it's like they could build an identity with what they have, especially considering all the bodies they brought in over the office. At the very least, there's a logic to some of the moves now that suggests like, oh, we know what we have to do when for a while it seemed like Troy Weaver was just compiling highly drafted centers that busted out elsewhere.

Like there's like there's no more just like making bets with the 10th to 12th man anymore. Like Mike Beasley, even though Rob is loath to ever admit anything good about him. I already did. I already did. Here's the thing. I don't like Malik Beasley. I don't like him as starter on the Milwaukee Bucks. I do like him as guy to shoot on the Detroit Pistons.

That's right. But Paul Reed also on this team. Tim Hardaway Jr. is going to win one to two games and lose them three to four, but that those wins are helpful when you won 14 last year. They need credibility. In terms of shooting at the positions that he plays. Like, defenses have to stay home on him.

This guy has a quick release, can get crazy hot. Like, he's going to be a great addition for what they just need. It's just like, can we just put the context in place to actually like see K'd try to be competent? Yeah. Like, can we at least just do that for the kid one time? It's almost like, you know, Bryce Young on the Carolina Panthers where they put him behind a horrible offensive line, terrible offensive coordinators, and now he's benched and has no confidence. It's like, bro, it would have been nice to see the guy in front of a competent line, decent offense,

although, you know, Andy Dalton's coming and made that all move. But you get the point. We want to make a nice, we want to make a nice context for the guy we just gave a crazy max deal to. I think, look, ultimately, we are talking about the Detroit Pistons as a team. We have ranked the 27th best team in the league. Yeah, it's not great. I do think we can pencil them in.

Yeah, but I think they will be better. I think there's going to be solid improvement for Detroit, but solid improvement from 14 wins does not mean a lot. So your mileage may vary as to how much you actually buy in to what the pistons are selling. They will be better. Like, they have talent to be better. They had some injuries last year. Putting Cade in a reasonable context to succeed will result in more wins.

I just don't think the prisons are going anywhere. They've built a foundation of credibility, I guess, of stability, which is something to say. And, like, Bickerstaff, not the most creative of coaches, but, like, I don't think they need offensive creation. I just think they need to install something that works. They need like muscle memory to learn how to win before we can start to be a little bit more complex with the offensive systems. Totally. All right. Last team on the list here, the Charlotte Hornets, 26th in our preseason power rankings.

Not a lot of changes on this team, but definitely some changes going on on the back end. Charles Lee comes in for Steve Clifford. Last you probably saw Charles Lee was not only hoisting the title, but attending the, McMinneman and Andrew's nuptials. I think I saw him in the photos there. How about that? So a friend to the media, perhaps. Rob, did you have your wedding on Kobe Day?

I can't say that's how I planned it, but shout out to Dave and Malika. Congrats to those kids. We're very happy for them. That's right. I'm going to ask a question that I've asked many times before, which really kind of just shows what we do here on this show. If Lamello is healthy, giant honking neon, whatever alien themed shoe red, if Lamello was healthy. Can the Hornets have a breakthrough this year?

What do you think? How are we defining breakthrough? Is breakthrough the rockets of last year, meaning they became a respectable team? I don't see that in the cards for them. playing like like supplanting the hawks in like 10th or night to challenge the hawks for the 10th seat of the east playing you know it's all relative you know that's yeah something for them i think that's the thing is they don't have to be that much better to get into the east play and like there's a reason we're talking about a bunch of eastern conference teams right now and the bulls and raptors spoiler

alert are not that far off that's right so it's two things for me that is it's hard for me Squiss. One, La Mello Ball not only has to play, he has to prove, so that's the one hurdle that's been just helped. The guy can't stay on the floor. That's a problem. Two, he has to prove a commitment

to winning basketball. Like, to playing competent levels of defense, to, you know, a decently restraintful shot selection. Right? Like, a

commitment to some kind of principles of an identity that he has not shown or as whenever I ask people, like the theme with La Mello, whenever you ask people, you know, other fellow media members or other people in and around the league,

like, so where are you at with Lamello? It's like, he's not serious. Everybody says he's not a serious player right now. So I think he has to overcome injury and he has to show that he's committed to a winning style of play. I think that's fair and true. I also think having him on the floor

is a huge difference in wins and losses, even when he's pretty unsirious. That's crazy. Come on. Even relative to an average replacement level guard, Lamello's very good and very talented, and even when he's not being very serious, is a huge lift for this team,

completely transforms their offense. I think the key to this question, Justin, is he is their only hope of making a real breakthrough. And so he has to be involved. He has to be at least as good as he's been, hopefully better and more serious. The version that we've seen on the floor for the last two seasons can change things dramatically for them.

And I think can also change things dramatically for the Hornets as a developmental enterprise, right? Guys like Mark Williams, their lives are totally different with Lamello on the floor. I think you could say the same thing about Brandon Miller for sure. I think you could say the same thing about Dijon Salon. Like all of these players are going to benefit from having an actual point guard and playmaker

who can set them up. up and most importantly, prevent them from having to overexpose the limitations in their games right now. Yeah, I think Miller is going to benefit just the most of any of that because he had an incredible rookie season. I think he's gone on his way to being this like modern version of Paul George or however you want to say it. I think the thing that jumped out for a lot of people was just him in isolation wasn't particularly good at that.

And I think he got pushed around a little bit, which is to be expected for a rookie dealing with the physical nature of an NBA for the first time. But if Lamello can start to get him on the move and open things up for him, so those attacks are a little bit more easy, all of a sudden, like, Miller becomes better as a result of that. And I also think Miles Bridges, who had really good synergy with Lamello when they were both playing, which feels like 10 years ago at this point, those two play off each other really well. And so like Lamello, Miller, Bridges, I think Mark Williams is really interesting. And then Josh Green will see if he can be the 3-Indie guy that he kind of, you kind of,

would wax and Wayne a little bit in Dallas. Yeah. I think you have the start of a very intriguing, high-powered offense. Defense is obviously a huge question at this point. They were second worst in the NBA and very close to being the worst. And you wonder, given what was said about Lamello,

Miller being young, do they have the defensive personnel to get there? I'm not sure, but in the East, it's a low bar. So if they had like a top 10 offense, for instance, I can see this team at least being pretty competitive. Top 10 offense is tough with this group, though. It might be. Maybe like top 15.

It's probably overshooting a little bit. They'd have to be the kind of team that presses every single. Like they'd have to play smart. Like they'd have to play committed. They'd have to be super committed to playing with pace, super commit, like finishing and transition. Like that's the identity of the team. They'd have to take on an identity that stretches the limits of the talent of the roster,

possession to possession. And I don't know, man. There's also not much of a margin for error, I would say. So, like, if green doesn't work out in the starting lineup, like you presume they turn to Grant Williams and some sort of like bigger ball lineup. But after that, it's like we're getting very close to like a Mietchich-Lamelo double point guard background, backcourt. Do we hate it?

No, we don't hate it. But I certainly don't. The fans of Charlotte might not appreciate that because it won't end up in a lot of wins for them. Yeah, Josh Green is an interesting player because he fits them stylistically in a lot of ways, but his defense is very spotty. I think he takes a lot of risks. He gambles a lot. He doesn't play good positional defense very often. So he has the, in some ways, a reputation as an effort defender, but it's the kind of effort that can be counterproductive. And so when you're that kind of player, plus the shooting can come and go, it puts you in a pretty iffy space. But it's the kind of

iffy space that I get why the hornets are betting on. And I certainly get how they ended up here. like fast athletic open court team, wanting another guy who can run with their court group. That makes sense to me. I just don't know if he's going to be the best fit and certainly the kind of fit that's going to elevate them in a meaningful way. Also curious about how the hierarchy

kind of met's out at this point because you have a new organization, maybe not as tethered to Lamello as being the franchise player, like the savior, all that. And like he left as the guy and all of a sudden Brandon Miller shows up and he looks like an all NBA future sort of player.

And so do things start to tilt that way? Bridges can be a little selfish at times. And so I wonder if there is a jostling for pecking order. That's where you would hope Charles Lee would kind of instill some discipline and structure there. I think a lot of people are very excited about what he could do there. I also think Taj Gibson signing him to an actual player contract in this year, 2024, perhaps helps on the back end of things.

But I think it's sort of all this out. I do think there's something there where it's like, this could be pretty interesting at the very least. There are a solid team when they're healthy. And I know we talked about the lamello injury, but Mark Williams missing basically all of last season was a big deal. And getting him back is a meaningful thing. Not least of all because he's someone who needs the time on the floor

to get his footwork right. I would say especially in the role, like very big, very athletic, clearly can move and finish pretty well. But he needs to get the timing of his steps down. And the only way you do that is by running a lot of pick and roll and a lot of open core like transition leakout stuff with Lamello in particular.

So I'm glad he's going to get that opportunity. And I'm glad that the Hornets are going to have his presence because they need the Williams and Nick Richards' tandem. Because when you dip into the Taj Gibson part of the rotation or the Grant Williams at the five part of the rotation, it's not ideal for a team

that's trying to improve dramatically on defense. Yeah. So we'll see. I think among these five teams, they're the one team I look at is potentially digging themselves out, the easiest. Like I see the path for the Hornets being a mid-tier team more so than I do even the Pistons and certainly the last three teams on our list.

Yeah. But flipping this the other way, if you guys were to pick your favorite future home for one Cooper flag, is there any team where you're like, damn, I hope he ends up here? For me, it's the Blazers. That's right. And that's easy. So I can hang out with him? Yes, of course.

So you could develop him. You'll be like the. freaking, what's his name, Howard CoSell to his Ali? That's not what I thought you were pulling there, I gotta admit. That would be an incredible development for our podcast for sure. But I just think because they're so locked into what they're doing at guard, it would be nice to have him. I guess he's a four man.

He's not quite a five. And defensively, like you'd like him as rim protection, rebounding and all of that. He's a four. And so I think he would be a beautiful compliment to what they're trying to do there. I think that would be great if he ended up in Portland. Because, like, there's already, like, some talent there, you know?

But, like, honestly, outside of the Nets, there's, like, some pretty decent young talent on all of these bad teams. So he wouldn't end up in a talentless situation anywhere. But I think Portland, to me, leaves me the most intrigued. What are you feeling, Justin? I mean, I think you know the answer.

Just me, Klingen, Avdia. Just hitting the microbreweries. Watch out ladies of Portland. I'm imagining the three of you showing up to the draft combine to do his interview. Watch out to the non-ethically non-monogamous folks in town. Wow. I heard that's big in the Pacific Northwest, Seattle specifically. You better believe it's quite big.

big. No, I think he fits perfectly in Portland. I think he would round out there. And I think it gets back to what we were talking before. I think the Blazers might need a best player, but he doesn't, he probably shouldn't be someone that needs the ball a lot. I think I see a lot of flag being Blake Griffin 2.0 to Waz's point about being a power forward. Like I see him as like, he has the physicality and oomph to his game, but he already has the shooting and some of the more skilled elements. So I'm pretty excited for you to do. I like that. that's right sort of cross-racial we'll give it to me we're halfway there met you halfway

that's right it's getting really compromised as we go along ready to get the hell out of here no but do you like one team or another for him I think a lot of these would make pretty cool sense and if this ends up being the sort of bottom of the league I think Brooklyn is the least interesting in some ways they need him the most but as we said like you want a playmaker you want someone for him to work off of.

I actually like the Charlotte positioning for that reason. If they don't make the big jump and they end up at the bottom, everything that you like about Miles Bridges or Josh Green, Cooper Flagg is in spades and more. And giving Lamello a kind of front court and Brandon Miller another kind of front court counterpoint. They can work at the pace that they work at, but also most importantly,

we haven't said this about the Hornets. Good Lord, their half court offense was bad. Like so, so bad. even with Lamello out there, they really need to diversify what they do. And one way to do that is short. Coaching change to Charles Lee, install some new stuff,

refresh the roster, absolutely, or, and or, get a really dynamic for who can connect dots, who can be an escape hatch, who can be a facilitator, can be a finisher. Cooper Flag could make them

a really interesting and much more layered team in a way that some of the guys they have just haven't been able to do. That would be pretty sick. Just like four horsemen of the apocalypse style, like we're running and and passing along. Yeah, that'd be great.

Unfortunately, the problem is all of these like super exciting possibilities and they never happen. He's going to end up on like the bulls playing off of Josh Skiddy. But I guess that will be interesting in its own right. That's dark. Not rooting for that possibility. But I guess that's a different kind of white boy summer for you, Justin. That's true.

All right. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back on Monday. So later on Monday. day with part two of the power rankings plus anything that comes along in the NBA. We'll see you then.

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