The Ringer NBA Show - Preseason NBA Power Rankings, Part 2 | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos continue their preseason rankings and discuss the teams ranked 22-15. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Would you bet a few thousand dollars that you could sink an eight-foot putt? What about 10 grand that you could win a drag race against a Camaro with a thousand horsepower? If you bet two million dollars, could you bet it all on one football game? Maybe you wish you could, but you probably wouldn't. Gamblers is about the people who did. From the Ringer Podcast Network, listen to Gamblers Season 2 on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier, joining me, Big Was, Rob Mahoney.

Gentlemen, most people, I think in the NBA world, are talking about the clash of One Victor Webinjama and Scoot Henderson, but I don't know if this podcast is the place for it was. It's definitely not because I didn't watch a second of it. I haven't even watched the highlight package. Like, you know, you can go on YouTube and watch the extended highlight, which is, you know, a more sophisticated highlight. package then your sports center

one minute and 30 clip. I didn't even watch the 12 minute version of it but from what I heard you know when Mignonal looked good hit some threes, hit some stepbacks looked huge nice. I knew it was a big deal when Justin was watching it when Justin was with the degenerates

taken in the prospect level basketball look it doesn't get bigger than that. Did you watch Mahoney? I caught some clips you know I got the osmosis experience. I can't say I sat down and watched that thing top to bottom. Yeah, there's nothing that really like hammers home how little you think of yourself when you're toggling between preseason NBA basketball

and the G League Ignite experience on ESPN too. But I have to say like it did feel like an experience. I think a lot of people on Twitter and whatnot can can probably attest to that as well. I was half watching as I was doing other work, but like both of those guys are really good. And I typically don't get sucked into the whole high school experience, but like they're going be a lot of fun really soon. I will say one of the great things about having reputation as a not draft guy is I've had a lot of draft guys in my ear recently being like, no, no, you don't understand about Victor Webbenyama.

Like, you really need to, you need to be neck deep in the tape on Victor Webminiama by the time the draft comes around because he's something else entirely. And I think our first look at him, state side certainly confirmed that. Yeah. Yeah. And I do want to say about school, highly skilled, highly explosive guy. But once I found out, he was like six foot and a half. I'm not going to lie, kind of checked out.

I was like, yeah. It's hard to get excited about short guys in the NBA. It's surprising, though, because, like, he plays with the violence and kind of the attitude of Anthony Edwards, but he's smaller, but somehow faster and more dynamic. And he can shoot stepbacks already. And he did this one move where he, like, he broke, like, two guys off the dribble and then somehow finished around Webbenyama,

who, as we mentioned, is, like, 7, 3, 75, whatever he is. he's incredible too I can't wait for the inevitable conversation where it's like oh Webbenyama's the better player but scoot's like for the real heads for like the Alan Iverson types who want to just be like

on top of the deep cut exciting guy well he I mean he's six foot but he has like six three energy is what we're ultimately saying I feel like you know ultimately that is exactly we on this podcast can relate certainly

all right we are back in power rankings mode that's why you are all here. We are going to do part two. And it's actually going to be a long day for your power rankings committee because we're recording part two and part three back to back. So if you get to part three on Friday, which is when it will drop, and the energy is maybe a little more fatigue, you know,

a little bit more winded in between some of the teams. That's probably why. But just to lay out the ground rules as we did last time, we all ranked every team one to 30, average them out. Isaiah Blakely, our trepid producer, broke the ties, and we will go through each team one by one, talk about them in general, and then talk about one essential question that I have sketched out. Good? Any questions?

Any preamble? So where are we picking up this time? All right. We are at number 22, and we are starting with your Washington Wizards. And one of the things I love about this exercise is how quickly I will talk myself into every single team just by doing. basic research on all of them. And the Wizards were definitely one of those teams last night where I'm like, wow, like they're really deep.

This could be a pretty decent team. And now I should qualify that by good. I think the Wizards are probably something close to maybe like a Charlotte last season. But I think it all ultimately circles back to our essential question, Rob, and which is, do you believe in Christopps Porzingis? Bearded Christop's Persingis, I must say.

I don't know if you guys have checked them out lately, but evil Christopps is back. I would like to believe from my own benefit that you can clear the decks that you can get a fresh start with a change in facial hair like that. I'm just not sure it gets rid of all the baggage in a career like this one.

So the short version is not especially, no. I do not believe in Chris Hep's Porzingis and that's health related. And on top of the fact that even when he plays, he's a pretty good but kind of complicated player. You know, it never really lives up to what is advertised is not always what he delivers in terms of his defensive impact

in terms of what you think the spacing is going to do for your team. So I think they're going to be pretty good. You know, I think the Wizards are going to be a decent team. Maybe you've been having some really solid stretches, but I can't say I'm talking myself into them like you are, Justin. You know, what's funny about how we just went from Wenbignana to poor Zingis is that the conversation, I was watching Kyle and KOC talk

about it for a little bit with it. This is like, well, this kid is the greatest prospect since LeBron James in 03. And honestly, it reminds me of the chatter we used to have around Porzingis. When we were literally calling this guy a freak, a unicorn, if you will. It reminds me of that conversation.

And ultimately, poor Zingis and his combination of both size and skill, it never translated because he's never become strong enough to live up to it. Right? And here's the thing about him on the Wizards. Like what he was being asked to do in Dallas is way less than what it would take to make the Wizards competent, right? It was like, yo, can you like beat a dude who switches on to you at the basket who's 6'4 and you're 7-2?

Can you do that for us? Can you be strong enough to withstand the resistance of a stout 6'3 guy? And the answer was no. can you reliably be our last line of defense, rim protector, which is the kind of things that he flashed in New York at times. He had like incredible, if you looked at his advanced stats, a lot of his rim protection stats were incredible back in those days. And the answer was no.

And so he was asked to do way less in Dallas than he would be asked to do potentially here with the Wizards to make them matter. and he couldn't do it. So I don't know why we would think that he's going to be able to raise the level of the wizards when nobody in Dallas was asking him to, you know, be some kind of offensive hub, be the kind of guy who draws double teams

and then is able to dissect and exploit them. These are the things that you ask elite players to do at his position. He wasn't asked to do none of that. And the things that he was asked to do, he couldn't. So, no, you know, I hate to say it, but no, I don't. I don't get excited about Porzing. It's like he has this really high center of gravity that basically starts at his nipples

so he's easy to move around and he can't exploit his size in the way that you're supposed to get excited about and he's never proven to be somebody who can live up to seven foot, you know, seven foot two long wing span guy defensively. You know, he always had this movement where you were like, oh, maybe he's got enough lateral movement

to be a switchable guy. No, he gets pushed around. He's not switchable. Doesn't protect the rim. He's just a glorified shooter at this point. Well, I guess Devil's advocate would be, is Beal a better partner for him in a way that Luca wasn't?

And Luca's obviously better, but there was clearly some sort of chemistry thing that was never right. And I wonder if you were even telling Porzingis he's going to be featured more, even if he isn't going to be, does that get him to buy in and do some of the things you actually need from it?

I think that part is actually important. In a way, was asking KP to do less, even though he probably should be doing less, I think it put him in like a weird mental headspace where he never really felt comfortable with what he was doing in Dallas. And so they tried like, let's throw him some token post-ups, like let's try to indulge him

in terms of giving him these kinds of possessions. Maybe there is something to the idea of him stretching outside of that box a little bit and being able to do a little more, at least in terms of keeping him happy, if not altogether efficient. It's star managing more than necessarily star like placing him in the correct positions in the offense. At a certain point, doesn't he have to like try and do the things that he claims he's very good at doing? That'd be nice. Well, I think the problem too with that language, Justin, is like star management with Chris out of course.

He hasn't really proven to play like a star in a really long time. He might have to earn some of that. But with the Wizards by default, like he's a very important part of this team. Open and Chuck Case, like they have made their bed with that. Yeah, this star management is if he's Diana Ross or something. It just seems,

or he's like, you know, to bring it a little bit more current, like he's Justin Timberlake and in sync. I know I'm dating myself with both references, but like, no, like, I can't remember Lack. time. J.C. Chazet, yeah, he probably is.

Let's go with the brains. Lance, maybe. Yeah, I think he's not even a JC. You're Lance. He's a third banana. Unfortunately on this team, I think he might be a JC type, because if you look at the rest of the roster, it's just stockpiled with above average. Like, this is a quality team, which is why I think I have some modicum of optimism.

There's just a lot of competence up and down this roster. I just, I don't know. if it's enough to break in past like what the 10th or the ninth place but like and i guess the other question we should talk about is kp has to anchor the defense because i don't know where you're getting hit me especially on this at this first unit i guess Kyle kuzma rehabilitated as a quality defender or average defender is the second best defender in the starting lineup for me it's just they have one guy who can do hard things on offense and a bunch of guys who can't uh yeah I'm not even touching that with a five-foot pole

because he's obvious got a hive on the internet that you wouldn't do. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. His native countrymen are like obsessed. I like how Boz is intimately familiar with every international player's hive. He's just poking all of them. The people from their hometown.

Yeah, Bradley Bill is a guy who can create shots for himself quite efficient. right he's kind of proven that to be his elite skill i can shock creation for himself and nobody else and then you look up and down this roster who's a guy that can draw to who's a guy with elite playmaking who's a guy i i don't see it chris cats would ostensibly be that guy maybe he's you know learn how to be able to create one-on-one for himself if not anybody else that's never been the case in the past in his career so i don't know know how this team is supposed to be good and not fine. Yeah, the question is, do we believe in Beal is a top level all-MBA caliber guy because despite the fact that the Wizards have treated

him like that for now three, four years and of paying him like he is that player. Unfortunately, he's been injured and when he's been able to get his points, they've all come just empty calories style. And so do we think like he can even be a first year rocket Hardin where he's just driving everything and they're going to make a low-level playoff seed. That would be probably the ceiling and do we think Beel's that guy? No. I think a great season for Bradley Beal is like third team all-NBA consideration. Maybe he gets in there if the Wizards just have an unbelievable season. But for those kinds of

teams, for those teams to make the playoffs if you have like one third team guy on it, the defense has to be really good usually. And that's where the Wizards, like, maybe they could be fine. I think they'll certainly be better than one of the worst defenses in the league, which is what they were last season. Just by virtue of, you know, like, Beal, I think just needs to up his effort level in that regard. He was really mailing it in.

But, like, Kuzma's a solid defender. KP can at least be a solid defender if not someone who's going to bail you out and save you. And you would hope that if you look up and down the bench in terms of the young guys, like, I think Avdia is actually a pretty, like, pretty competent on that end, but you want to see more from the Rui Hachamara. As you... Hachimura has the physical

tools, for sure. Absolutely. Well, they have this weird thing where it's almost like the low rent version of the Warriors where they have their veterans starting lineup and then they just have a bunch of recent first round picks to come off the bench. You have Hachamuri, have Avdia, Kisper, who's out four to six weeks now with an ankle sprain.

I think that came out today before we started recording. Johnny Davis, another high first round pick. But the problem is the starting lineup is like average. And I don't think any of us are sold on any of the recent first. Do any of these guys, Wazz, jump out to you? Are you a Hachamara guy? I was his rookie year because he came in even at that age with NBA size right off the bat. So I thought maybe he could develop a game where he could take advantage of his physical gifts

and with some level of a combination of skill and physicality. He's just never proven that. The jump shot is still leaves me wanting. Definitely you don't look at his ball handling as some kind of strength. And so he's never developed the things that are. wing guy needs in order to exploit his physical gifts. So while I used to be a Hachimura guy, it's hard to justify that enthusiasm anymore. And that's really the problem here is, you know, they've brought in some pretty solid

veteran players, you know, the Montemoress and the Will Bartons to fill out that starting lineup. Those are spots that are theoretically up for grabs. Like if any of these young guys was really popping, that job would be theirs. But here's where we are. You know, it's Hachimura not like, frankly, not being on the floor enough yet to really live up to what he could be. And some of that was injury for him. Some of that was undisclosed personal reasons that it sounded like were mental health related for him.

So whatever he was going through, I hope he's able to get back from that and play really successful basketball for a long time. But Avdi has a really flawed player. Kisper for a guy who's like theoretically a shooter is going to have to be better than average when he comes back from injury if he's going to stick. There's just not like a lot of selling points here in terms of, oh, we're really ready to hand over to the next, to the post-Bradley-Beele era of the wizards or the transitional era of the wizards. The next generation.

Yeah. It's not great, you know? It's not great. Yeah. Well, I guess the one thing they have going for them is their direct competition is the next team on our list and some of the other teams we're going to talk about. Who aren't that much farther ahead of the wizards

if they are farther ahead to begin with? And that is first and foremost, the number 21 team on our list. was these New York Knickerbockers. I think we can go in a lot of different ways with this one. The question I have written down seems to be the big picture question for them, which is it seems like if they're going to do anything, if they're going to trade for a star, if they're going to be better to this season,

if they're going to be better in the long term, a lot of it ultimately boils down to RJ Barrett. Can RJ Barrett be a number one if he's not, what is he in this league, let alone on this team? And my question is, especially based on what he's been talking about at Media Day in the off season, about what he's focusing on, driving to the rim, not necessarily shooting as much. Sounds like he's going to overlap even more with Julius Randall that he did last season.

And it already seemed like these guys were too similar to really coexist well. And so I wonder why can RJ Barrett reach his full potential playing with Julius Randall? I mean, I think he can. It's not like Julius Randall has to play every single. single R.J. Barrett Minute available on the floor. I think that that question is, is less a a Julius Randall question and a NIC's hierarchy question. If they're going to be dedicated to this two-track approach of, yeah, we're trying to win now and we're trying to develop young guys and retain Tom Thibodeau, who is going to play old guys at the expense of,

player development at every turn because he wants to grind out wins against the Charlotte Hornets in service of achieving a 10 seed. That to me is a bigger problem. I think it's the combination of having Randall, having Tibbs' approach to roster building and roster development,

which is better said, that's a bigger hindrance to me than just one individual guy who happens to occupy a lot of the space on the court that Randall wants to have. I think his coach, the guy in charge of his fate, is going to take an approach that is suboptimal to a team that is not destined for competitive NBA basketball, right? As far as the big dogs are concerned, this is a team that is going to scratch and claw for the playing. And they're going to do that at the expense of trying to throw these guys, put their feet to the fire of the young guys and seeing what they got, and mixing and matching and trying different combinations with the young people.

That's what's going to hinder him, not Julius Randall by himself. No, yeah. It really is about Randall being symptomatic of that. And symptomatic of the larger Tom Tibuto wins games, but at what cost dilemma. And some of that is development. Some of that is guys like RJ just like not getting. getting quite as much room to do their thing on the court sometimes. There's all kind of factors that go into that.

Unfortunately, they have me, like, boxed into this corner I don't want to be in, which is, like, I'm just increasingly becoming an Obie Toppin guy. I'm becoming, like, the crazy person with the sign outside MSG, like begging you to play Obitopin. And that's not even because Obi-Toppin is great, because we have no evidence to suggest that he is. In place of Randall or at center? I think, I think, well, ideally, either.

But Tom Tibado has been very clear he does not want to play him and Randolph, together, no matter what you or me or literally anyone on the planet will tell him about whether that could, I'm not even saying it would work. I would like to see if it could over a long enough timeline. But yeah, really, I don't want to overstate how good Toppin is because he's more interesting than he is demonstrably good. I just like the idea of if we're conceptualizing what the Knicks could be, the long-term core of a guy like Toppin, a guy like Barrett, a guy like Brunson, there's room there

for everyone to maneuver in a way that feels healthy. whereas Julius Randall, for all of what he's done for the Knicks, for everything he's produced as a player. Like, he's a guy who gets you to a certain point. And after that point, he starts to cannibalize a little bit on your other best players and what they do. Yeah, I think we're all kind of saying the same thing in just describing it to different factors here.

I just don't see them changing how they're approaching everything, especially with tips there. But also, like, the institution seems to be all in on this. And when you remove Randall, you're going to lose games. And when you have him there, you're probably creating redundancy, not only with Barrett, but with Brunson. And so I guess this is where we are, where we just get a ton of Isaiah Hartenstein.

It's Hartnstein season right now. And every season is hard to stay season, Justin. Yeah. And so I just don't know. It's weird. I think a lot of teams we're going to talk about or have this wealth of veterans who they're counting on to get by now while hoping to bring along the young guys.

But then you get into a situation where the Knicks are now where you're just not feeding the young guys the opportunity. Like, what is Emmanuel quickly? Like, is Cam Reddish? Is Cam Reddish to leave it on this team? He is on the team. Quentin Grimes is a guy who, like, people just love this offseason who apparently Danny Ains just thinks is the next JJ Reddick.

So I'm just like, what's going on at all times? Did you see the fewer on Nick's Twitter when Tibbs trolled everybody by saying, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's kind of an open, whatever close competition. But I'm thinking Evan is in the front. Fournier's in the front to bless you, so he's saying it's close, but I'm going to play an old dude who we know everything we need to know about already

and who we didn't say is untouchable in a Donovan Mitchell deal. It's neck and neck, but even with the slight, I'm going old veteran. Right. Just for the slightest chance that I'm closer to the 10th than I am the 11th seat.

Yep. The Knicks just aren't in a place as a franchise us in terms of like a talent base and roster where they need to be investing in as was laid out the guys who we know exactly who they are the guys who have been asked and answered is this an NBA level starting shooting guard Evan Fornier doesn't look that way you know like I think I think we're pretty clear on that front I would love to see any alternative they could explore rather than be the 10th seed and yet I think the biggest upset is Derek Rose is in pencilton to the starting lineup somehow like when he showed up to media day with his shirt off and he's like

I took Tibbs' challenge personally. I got really chiseled and dropped like five pounds. Like I was like, oh shit, this guy's going to be closing games like tomorrow. I mean, we're not to the opener yet. Things could still happen.

It's a great point. I mean, anything else you want to touch was, it seems like we've been saying the same thing for two years now, but let the kids play, let them have fun. I, you know,

hold them accountable, of course. Like if a young guy is out there, he's being an abject disaster. I'm not saying there shouldn't be accountability tied to minutes. Of course there should be. And I think, you know, the best coaches told that line between giving guys minutes and not, you know, basically just, oh, this is your inheritance type of thing.

Like, no, I think the best coaches figure out the best carrot and stick with this minute stuff and development stuff. It just feels like Tibbs is just the opposite of it. It's like this short leash with guys who don't know how to do it. If they can't do it yet, they have to learn. And the only way to learn is with minutes, you know. Here's a question. You as a Knicks fan, would you prefer to let all the young guys play

and play through the mistakes and have fun but lose? Would you rather that than what you're going to get? Yes. Yeah. I think most people would say yes. like there's some fun players on here like I just want to see Emmanuel quickly play 20 minutes and just run around

and shoot threes and do some shit like is that so much to ask for especially like what's the alternative you know like just throw Mitchell Robinson out there I don't care how many fouls he has let him foul out of every game I really don't care right all right moving on

number 20 to a team that probably will literally just throw their young guys out there and watch them do some shit the Sacramento Kings This is a tough one because I think we can go a lot of ways with this. The starting lineup makes sense. Unlike it did in years past, there's a clear vision. There's a lot of shooting on this team.

There's a lot of guys you can get out in transition. My big question for you, Rob, is can a team just straight up punt rim protection and still be good in the NBA? Because right now, DeMonis, a bonus is Pennsylvania as the starting center. I think that's probably their best approach to put them there and just like run and just like rack up as many points as possible. On the other hand, like, I don't know who they're stopping at all. Yeah, I don't think their defense is going to be pretty good almost no matter what they do at this point. Which I think is okay. Like I think they do have enough offensive firepower finally to let their best players play, to have the spacing around them.

Like that part of it's going to make sense. The question is like how much are they going to try to fudge it versus lean into being an offense first team? Because we've seen in the preseason, they're starting Kasiakpala at Ford instead of Kegan Murray, which I think it's a perfectly fine thing to do, right? It's like it's kind of a vague gesture at this question that you're asking about their defense and the rim protection. Like Kizakpala is not really a rim protector, but he's a solid defender. He moves well for a big. I think most importantly, he takes on like a wide variety of assignments that you don't want Sabon as handling. So he gives you some options between him and Harrison Barnes, like having them do some things.

But, but again, I asked to what end? You know, like, are you going to be the 21st ranked defense instead of the 24th ranked defense? And how much is that really going to move the needle for you versus like every indication we've gotten from Kegan Murray so far has been really positive in terms of how he navigates the floor, in terms of what his mechanics look like, how much of an impact he could make from day one?

That looks like a really fascinating and interesting young player that I want to get on the floor as much as I possibly can. And maybe he ultimately does. But I think ultimately we're going to move in a place with this team where they are offense, first, second, and third. Fuck it, frankly, with everything else. Yeah, if you're going to hover around 22nd in the league on defense, and we're not even talking about, obviously being like one of the best teams in the league

is out of the question, but can they be an 8th seed type of team? I think they can, but they have to be incredible at offense. They have to be firmly in the top seven, eight type of situation. on offense. And, you know, that would basically have to come from the Aaron Fox actually becoming elite at the point of attack, right? He's had his moments in the past where I'm just like, oh, my God, nobody can stay in front of this kid. And he can draw, he can draw two with his paint attacks and kick out and, you know, create opportunities for shooters. He's flashed it. It's never been sort of consistent. And then, you know, he's had his breakdowns.

crunch time in the past too, right, where Sacramento's offense just didn't look how it needed to look. The answer, Justin, is, no, you ain't going to have a good defense with some bonus as your center. That's impossible. We've seen it for six years, however long it's been. That ain't going to be the case.

But I think they create some nice offense with the pieces they got. I'm a big Murray fan, definitely a big Davian Mitchell fan, full court fits alum. Obviously, y'all know I'm heard of till I die. So I love what they have

offensively on this team. Like, Malik, like they have the pieces to be a really good offensive team. You know, it's basically a way stripped down version or a lesser version of seven seconds or less sons. It's like, yes, Amari is at center, but they did it by having number one offense and about league average efficiency on defense.

This ain't going to be that, right? it's going to be a lesser version. It's not going to get them to Western Conference finals and get them, you know, Robert Ori hip check away from the finals type of thing. But I think they could be a good, really tough team by being one of the best offenses in the league. So Murray is just the Matrix revolutions then?

I don't hate that, you know? Why not? I don't hate it. Yeah. Well, I will say, Justin, I don't know how you feel about this, but after even the limited time we saw Foxen subonis together, I feel pretty good about their pairing, right? Like that, that feels like it fits. It's just kind of about everything else. And I think that starts with, is this, is this enough

shooting to get you offensively where you need to go? So yeah, I think having the Fox, Subonis pick and roll as the heart of your offense makes sense. And they did, again, surround them with shooting. So like, there is a logic to all of their moves, Barnes, Herder, Murray, last season in college, mind you, and Malik Monk all shot 39% or more from three last season. They have the stuff to make what they want work, which is like a light years ahead of anything with the Kings over the past 15 years, maybe. I guess the question is, are they counting too much on a top seven that we are saying has a limited ceiling to begin with? Because John Hollinger had this in his recent write-up about the Kings. Apparently, they just filled their bench with a bunch of guys that Mike

Brown new, including like Kent Baysbore and guys from the Nigerian team, which he coached, which is why KZiak Paola is on this team. And so it's just like, yeah, this team is good, but they're almost hop-heavy in the way like the 2020 Lakers were, but we're saying

that their ceiling is the 2020, 20-23 Lakers. Yeah. Yeah. Their ceiling is pretty damn low. Yeah, if that's what you're asking, it's a low ceiling because

if all things shake out the best, their best two players are Vier and Fox and Demona Sabon. It's like nobody's idea of world beaters hardly, I guess Sabonis isn't All-Star, sure.

But like, those are their two best players. Nobody thinks the ceiling on those two guys where they could take a team is very far. So yeah, that's that is what it is. But at the same time, it's better than everything it's going to be fun as hell.

It's going to be great to watch. It is. And if anybody's watching the Kings, I think that's a win for them. Well, I think even when it is a little bit more stodgy offensively, like if they just can't get quite enough shooting out there at some times, watching those two guys try to problem solve it

is going to be interesting. Like, there's a lot of resources there between Fox's Burst and like the elbow stuff with Subonis. Like, there's mechanics there that can work. I just don't know what that means for, again, our guys, guy, a full court fits alum, Davyne Mitchell. Like, how do you

play him with those two guys? You know, like, I worry about stuff like that with him. Like, he might be locked in a position where he's only on the floor when Deeran Fox is off of it, just because I'm not sure you can afford to not have shooting at those two wing spots when the two best players are out there. Yeah, I just assume he's going to kind of fall off,

which is sad to say, because in a certain way, they did kind of prioritize him over Halliburton, which I never really totally got. But here's what we have, you know? They're just going with what they have and they're making sense of it. Let's just be proud of them for that. Aren't we all? They're putting their pants on one leg at a time.

They're getting out the door. They're going to work. It just, we're happy for them. All right. Number 19, the Portland Trailblazers. I tried to switch this up because I think,

much like last year, too, I could probably ask about all of these teams. How can they put together a competent defense? But I think for the Trailblazers, the answer is like, you can see a pathway to it, which is pretty interesting. they obviously completely revamped everything around DAME this year.

My question for you guys and Waz, we can start with you. Are the Trail Blazers better than the Blazers team that went to the West finals a couple of years ago, 2018, 2019. And so I'm going to read you the lineups here. So in 2018-19, you had Dame, C.J. McCollum, Mo Harclis, Al-Frucaminu, Yusuf Nurkich, and on the bench, Cantor, now, and his freedom. Seth Curry, Rodney, Hood, right? Pretty decent team, got to the West finals in large part because there were some injuries in the West was a little weaker outside of the Warriors. 22, 2023 team, Dame, Anthony Simons, Josh Hart, Jeremy Grant, Yusuf Nurkich, Gary Payton the second, Shaden Sharp, the rookie, and Nazir Little.

Which of those teams do you like more, wise? I like this team more because they have an ability to play bigger on the wings than they ever. have in the Dane era. And I think, you know, Anthony Simons is a reasonable enough facsimile what C.J. McCollum was able to give the trailblazers, right? So just defensively, they have more size on the wing than they've ever had in the Damed era.

However, you know, at the end of the day, like Josh Hart and Anthony Simons being next to Dane, if they're going to get a lot of minutes, you still have a lot of these same problems that you had with the Dane and CJ era. So I think they needed to do more to put size next to Dane than they have. But yeah, like the potentialist team.

You know, the problem is the league is way better. Like the great teams, like it's just a deeper crop of extremely talented teams than was the case back then. And so, like, yeah, I think their potential to be, you know, way more stout on defense is much higher. But the teams they got to beat are just so much better than back then. Yeah, just kind of like reading the tea leaves coming out of camp and preseason for them. I do think they're probably going to end up starting someone bigger at the three.

I think Hart is going to end up playing a lot of these minutes, right? Like getting to the ends of games, Dame, Simons, and Hart are just your three best perimeter guys. But Justice Winslow might be starting. Nassir Little might be starting. And I think both of those guys are useful NBA players to an extent, but I can't pretend that they're worlds better than the outline you have here, Justin, of Mo Harkless and Alfredo Camino. They're in that vein of limitation, right,

in terms of what they can't do offensively. And so you have to hope that the rest of it is enough. And something that's going to come down to what version of Jeremy Grant are the Blazers going to ultimately get? Like, are they getting... You don't want the full Detroit experience. I don't think that's healthy for anybody. I don't think you want the fully limited Nuggets experience.

And so is like, is there a gray area here in which he can be a pretty actualized offensive player in a way that obviously the Al-Farukaminos of the world just could not? Do we believe in that player, though? Like, I think they are putting a lot of stock into Grant being a capable, if not number two option, then certainly a high level number three. Like, do we think that's enough to like get by? because they probably won't have the firepower maybe of the past Blazers teams, but I think they're hoping to be maybe a little bit more balanced. I think defensively he can be really actively switchable defensively.

And I think offensively maybe you're hoping for like 17 points a game, 16, 17 points a game from him on reasonably efficient shooting. That seems within his grasp in this context, I think. Yeah. And again, you know, Gary Payton is the second and Grant, like these guys are the type of high-level. defensive players that they've never had in the dame error. Like they just never paired him with those type of defensive just talents. And so, you know, I'd love to see how it plays out on the floor.

But it's hard to get too excited about what the blazes got going on, to be honest. But I think it is fitting that they ended up next to the Kings because I had a really hard time threading that needle. and I think we all had these two teams within basically two spots of each other in our rankings. We're going to be talking about them in relation to one another all year as they kind of jockey for a spot in this play and race. They just seem destined to kind of be in the same spaces.

Yeah, a lot of these teams were neck and neck. I think up until our next team, number 18, the Chicago Bulls, like this is all a tier unto itself, it feels like. And I think it would probably be dictated by injuries, which probably is as good of a segue as any to get to the Chicago Bulls at 18.

Here's my question. Are the Bulls the 2022-2020-3 self-tanking candidate? And so I looked up last year, I correctly predicted the Pacers as a team that was probably teetering had encountered a lot of different injuries and then all of a sudden

everything kind of fell apart. They decided to embrace their destiny, bottom out, make the trade for Halliburton, etc., etc. What did you incorrectly predict? If that's what you correctly predicted, what's on the other side of the ledger on? Don't talk about that. I'll back it up.

I back it up. Lost to history. The scrolls were burned immediately. But here's what I'm thinking, because Vucevich, in a contract year, really bad last year, we'll figure out his fate soon. Demard Rosen 33. Zach Levine, there on a pretty big contract, maybe does. doesn't have the same motivation to be playing for his offseason fate as much. I think the big

thing is that Lonzo's knee seems to be Swiss cheese at this point. He's going in for his second surgery in, what was it, eight months? They don't really know when he'll be back. And as everybody knows at this point with the Bulls, Lonzo Caruso really held together that defense in the good times early last season. And so I don't know, Rob, like, what do the Bulls have here? And do you think that I don't even think it's darkest timeline. I think it's like a very possible timeline that this team could ultimately go the opposite way and just completely bottom out this season.

I'm really torn because in theory, I am a supporter of the idea that just being a pretty good team for long enough is a decent model. Like I actually think there are virtues to that model of being a good, good playoff team over a long enough term. The problem with the Bulls in that kind of formulation is,

you know, they finally made the playoffs. They missed the previous four years. years, that's not nothing. But ideally if you're going to be in that zone when you're, you're clearly not contending, but also you're way too good to be racing the jazz and the spurs to the bottom as is, you want to have like some reason for hope of a breakthrough. And the only reason I could possibly see here is Pat Williams. I'm not sure I really think Pat Williams is that guy. And it's such an eye of the beholder thing with him. I would understand if someone was super high on him as a potential star down the line. But I don't think this is,

a crazy question to think that I'm not sure it'll happen but maybe it should. Like maybe they should be one of these teams that's thinking about we've kind of seen what this formula looks like without Lonzo. If we're not optimistic about his chances of getting back fully healthy and mobile long term,

we have to start at least thinking about these other possibilities, don't we? I love it. Come to the dark side, Rob. The cynicism is great here. It's not just that Lonzo is going to be out again because of his knee situation. it's that, you know, De Rosen, he can get hurt at any second, right?

Like, if DeRosen goes down, this is done. They're not going to have to tank. They're just going to be bad, you know. Same with Zach Levine, who's had just a checkered injury history. If he goes down, they're just not going to be good. So I don't even think that they're going to have to tank. I think the circumstances of their roster that isn't a completely deep one And isn't like top heavy as far as the talent, right?

Like we're not talking about the Mavericks, right? Where their best guy when he's right is the best player in the NBA. They don't have that on his team. So if even the smallest things go wrong for them, they're just going to naturally go into a tailspend. They're not even going to have to consciously be like, yo, Patrick Williams, we're going to run offense through you for a majority of these games because we're trying to get school up in here.

Yeah. I think the, I think the De Rosen part of that is where it gets damning. Because it's not just possible that he never plays that well again. I would say it's likely he never plays that well again. Like that could be the best we ever see of DeMar in a Bulls uniform. And it wasn't even close to being good enough. Yeah.

And that's why it's commendable to go for it, to try to be the best version of yourself, which is what the Bulls did first by swinging the trade for Vucevich and then making the sign and trade for DeMarre de Rosen, which like the DeRosen just one year, if that's all they get for them, is still one of the best transactions in recent history. Like, that was incredibly worth it.

Yeah. Nobody saw that coming. I just, I think this is the problem you get it to eventually when you build a top heavy team with three guys or two guys who aren't clear cut all NBA style, top of the league sort of guys. You need a Levine, a DeRosin boost. to carry you because this team isn't really deep. It wasn't last year when they're pretending that

Tony Bradley was an adequate backup center. Like they have more there. Like there are guys here like Drogick and Drummond and Peruso still here and Densumu and like all these guys, right? But they really need Vucevish to play like an all star. He shot 31.4% from three last year. Derozen were expecting a fall off. Levine maybe takes a mini jump, takes the reins and is better this year. But like, you're starting from a very low place of expectations. and I don't know. Like, Waz, do you see any of these guys exceeding our expectations individually,

Vucevic in particular? I have no idea why we would expect Vucevich to be anything more than everything that he's been. Even at his best, I don't think the best version of Vosovic makes this team somehow, like knocking on the door of championship contention. I think where we would see that is from a Levine,

right, where he has become like this elite perimeter score and, you know, he gives you just enough playmaking to supplement DeRosan where it's like, oh, the Bulls offense has some continuity. They move the ball enough. They have the type of guys who can exploit mismatches enough. And they're, you know, this really good offensive thing. And they're piecing it together on defense. It would have to come from Levine, in my opinion, you know, the max contract guy,

the 40 million dollar guy, he would have to raise his level to watch this thing turn into something else. Vucovich, I mean, what are we talking about? You know, he's as a bonus type of all-star.

He's a Jamal McGlore type of all-star. Come on. That's me. He's not a legitimate all-stars. We're calling Vouch at Jamal-Maglore. We're taking shots at Tony Bradley. What are we doing? Yeah, it's not,

good. And I got to say, the Pistons future, it's looking, looking bright, my friends. I'm just saying, like, this is what I was talking about. I completely forgot about this. This is you trying to, should have forced his way to the choice. We're not even a season into his first year on this max deal. We're already like, should they bottom out? Is this already a tanking candidate? I'm just saying, this is you trying to pretend you were right when you were empirically wrong about what happened, which is he resigned with the Chicago Bulls. I'm sorry.

Yeah. I would just say that I'll be right eventually, you know? It's a long-term play. All right. Number 17, the Toronto Raptors. A team that I think I am high on, I think a lot of you guys are as well. I think my question for them, well, actually, let's just talk about them this season. Where do we see them, Rob, just as currently constituted and then we can get into the future.

Is this a team that could break into the top four in the East, potentially? Is this a solid top six, or is this more of like a playing team? Yeah, I don't see them. is breaking into that top four necessarily. But once you get beyond that point, I'm kind of as optimistic about them as almost any of those other candidates. And some of that is like just the collective IQ.

It's the length. It's the athleticism. It's the skill level. They just have a lot going on in ways that the Chicago Bulls of the world do not. And so if we want to talk tiers, this might be a whole other, the start of a whole other tier right here

coming up from the Raptors, because they can just do things that some of these other, like, play-in-caliber teams cannot. And maybe injuries will, render them into that that playing conversation. But I think they're flat better than that. Yeah, I think unlike the Bulls, the Raptors will absolutely have an elite unit in their defense.

Like, we know that about them, right? Which is something we can't say about any other team that we talk. Perhaps Dame could carry the Blazers to elite offense, right? Like, it's possible. We've seen them do it in the past. But, like, we know the Raptors are going to bring an elite level defense to every single game. this year. And, you know, here on our sheet it says, could they take a step back? Here's the problem with that. I've been thinking that every single year since Kwadap.

Every single season I went to it to like, oh, maybe if things don't go right, like they'll pawn off, Lowry, they'll get rid of Seacum, they'll get Mark Gassau out of here, they'll figure out what to do with OG An An Anobie. They'll, you know, sort of bottom out and become this type of team that just chases lottery balls and, you know, stockpiles draft picks and call, you know, Maasai get to call himself a genius like the people in OKC and Utah, but they just refuse to do it. Right. And so, like, I have no other choice for to think they're going to be competent because it's all they ever do.

Like, there's no, like, there's no, there's no version of them doing anything else. Yeah. I guess my question long term has more to do with the way the contracts are set up. It seems like they're going to reach an inflection point whether they want to or not because Fred Van Vleet and Gary Trent Jr. have player options to go into free agency next offseason. Seacom, 24 offseason could be a free agent. OG has a player option to be a 2024 free agent. So there are a lot of those guys that they've been bringing up steadily that they've had in abundance to turn to when a Lowry gets traded when the Kaui leaves. They're going to have the option to leave or not.

And so the question is, do you want to get ahead of that? Do you want to reset the timeline around Scotty Barnes? Because if you do want to keep all of them, it's going to be very, very costly. And I'm not sure they want to be paying for this type of team that much money. But I could see it the other way. I can see this is like a perfectly adequate team with still a lot of upside. Like, what is Yakum? Like, these guys are all still very much in their primes.

And if this works, like why not keep going? So I'm mixed on that. But I think it's fair to ask the question. It's fair to ask the question. Let me say upside. who are you talking about besides Scotty Barnes OG? Because, okay, I think that's kind of fair.

Sure. I think, oh, gee, I'm not even joking. I think precious of Chua can be good. Yakum keeps getting better somehow every year, even though he's an older vet now. Yeah, I just think you're like, yes, I think Scotty Barnes is definitely going to prove himself to be much better than he showed his rookie year, of course.

That goes without saying, like, of course, but I just think, I'm not saying the best of Fred Van Vleet is behind him. I think he's played to the level that he's going to play. You know, we're not going to see a materially better Van Vleet or Gary Trent or, you know, Pascal Seacom, in my opinion. So I'm like, I think we've seen what we're going to see out of those guys. And you wonder, is, you know, is Scotty Barnes going to just ascend to, you know,

John Morant year to levels around all the competence around him. I think that's what Raptors fans would want us to believe.

Yeah. Yeah. Scotty Burns is untouchable. I'm not so sure about that, though. I don't think any of us are. But I would love

to believe that. You know, I would love to believe in that world. I think if he well, can I just say if he shows more

creation in year two, I'm ready to believe it. I think that is the one. What kind of creation we're talking about here? Is he like going to be the type of, of John Morant,

a Charles Spreewell guy who makes his living, getting to the lane and finishing? Is he going to develop some type of mid-ranger? What are we talking about shot creation-wise?

Because this is what I ask people, like, what kind of shot creator will Scott? He ain't going to be step back threes and coming off of picking rolls against drop defenses and splashing it over the top of guys. It's going to be because he's,

some type of I live in the paint guy, isn't it? How did Lettrell Spreewell get in this conversation? He was because he is, man. That's the type of guy he was. He couldn't shoot worth a damn. He became a perennial all-star by being somebody who lived in the painted area. I do think Scotty's shown some of that, though.

Like the rap on him coming into the league was this guy can't shoot yet, period. And he showed some mid-range. He chose a lot of ability to improvise to get into those weird floaters and runners. he got buckets in ways that he should not have been able to do, given what we were told to believe of his game. And I think what makes these big wing guys so captivating is

if he does hit that next level as a mid-range guy, as someone who can create his own shot at the dribble, that's just the most important skill set from the most important type of player you can find. And so that's why I would be reluctant to give any of this up because there's a lot of collective IQ, there's a lot of energy with this team, there's a lot of versatility with this team.

I'm not quite sure myself that Scotty Barnes is that guy, but on the 15 to 20% chance that he is, I need to find out because it could completely change my friend. I'm just ballparking. No, I'm putting it. Where you put it? Here's the recent examples of guys who came into the league with like a sort of similar profile skill set-wise

and developed into elite wing kind of creator kind of guys. Jimmy Butler, Kauai Leonard. That's it. Paul George. Paul George already could shoot and could do a whole bunch of stuff when he came to the NBA.

He didn't develop into some elite shooter from any rank. Like he could shoot already. This guy has not been some, like Paul George was a shooter when he came into the NBA. That's what they called him. I think Jimmy Butler is pretty attainable,

though. Like Kauai's obviously. on another level. But like, if Scottie was just... Jimmy Butler's attainable? Jimmy Butler still can't shoot in year like 12.

I'm just saying, bro, when this guy took a team to the finals, and in the finals, he was the offense, half-court offense of a team that scored against elite defenses

in Eastern Conference and Western Conference Funds. Like, that seems not very attainable. Well, Butler definitely has some like badass stuff that is,

I don't think any, has. And I'm not holding him to that standard. But I think just like regular season, Jimmy Butler, I think that is kind of where you are as a ceiling for Barnes. I don't think that's out of this world. Kauai, maybe. Kauai's just a robot and maybe.

Kauai definitely. And this idea that, oh, Scotty was better than Kauai at this age. Like, guys, like, Kauai Leonard, Kauai Leonard is the single craziest player development story that we might have ever

seen, bro. Like, he's become unstoppable in mid-range. This like, this shot that people, everybody agrees is bad to take. He's become the best at doing it. Like, what are we doing here? Like, and Kauai is not happening. He's not going to become Jordan in the mid-ranged. I think that's safe to say. Like, this is not some crazy thing. We're not

dissing this kid by saying he's not going to become Kauai and Jordan in the mid-range. I just think he would have to become somebody who lived at the free throw line the way Jimmy does when he's got it rolling at his best and lives in the paint, like actually able to finish close to the basket, you know, at an elite rate as far as paint shot efficiency. So, you know, that's a lot to ask of the young man. But I think there are more success stories than that. Like those are the high-end ones. Those are the absolute best-case scenarios. but when you're starting from

rookie of the year already a very effective player, what if he just has like a Jalen Brown type trajectory in terms of his jumper in terms of going from like can't shoot to now this is like a thing that we at least have to take into account on top of everything else he does, you know?

Like I think there are like Brandon Ingram level evolutions for him that's like, oh, this is interesting in a totally different way. Not to say Brandon Ingram's winning you in NBA finals, but Scotty Barnes with Brandon Ingram's level of development might Yeah, and Barnes is a better playmaker and probably will be than both of those guys. And he's better using his physical.

Like, if he develops the kind of handle and, you know, shot making that Brandon Ingram has, okay, we're talking about a really scary player when you combine his, you know, his willingness to give up the rock. And again, physical, Brandon Ingram just don't play with physicality. Scotty Barnes, last year's rookie was muscling guys. just beating dudes up at the point of attack. Okay, cool. If you tell him he could, he's got shake like Brandon Ingram,

all right, cool. I just, man, you know, I hate sounding so skeptical with a young guy. It's just, this shit is hard to achieve, to attain, you know? I don't know if I got you to 20%, but I think I got you to 15%. Sure. I think what everyone's saying is like, it's in with, this is the range of his outcomes.

We don't know if he'll hit the high end, but I think it's possible, and it's not unfair to say that he could be on the level of these guys eventually, and not even that far in the future, because he was already pretty good as a rookie. But to get back to the initial prompt here, is he so good,

and do you have so much belief in him? And as Waz was kind of alluding to, they don't have guys who can necessarily grow with him. They have guys who are probably a little bit older than him. Do you try to reset things around him at this point? Rob, what do you think? Yeah, I would be pretty reluctant to push that button. Like, I think what they have is maybe a little bit too good for that kind of outcome,

unless somebody just really wants out of there. And, you know, that's a whole different kind of interpersonal thing. But just based on game, just based on talent, just based on the age curves with these guys, there's nobody in their core who I'm really worried about, like, they can't sustain where they are for the next three years. You know, they're all kind of in that pocket, more or less. Like, like Wazas, they might not get better. Fred Van Fleet might not get any better than this is kind of going to be.

be the player he is, but I'm fine with that version of Fred Van Vleet and playing out the string with some of these younger guys and seeing if we can kind of build up a roster a little bit around the edges, and maybe that's enough. Just weed out everyone who isn't 6'9. So when Fred Venn, Fleet walks in free agency, just

replace them with another power forward. Yeah. Why not? Yeah, but I agree. I don't think this is the type of team that should pull the lever themselves. If situations kind of force them to, it makes sense, but what they have could be pretty good. Let's go to number 16 now, the Elena Hawks.

There's a lot we can talk about with the Hawks. Was, why don't we do a check-in first on your home team in Atlanta? How are you feeling about them going into this season coming out of what was a pretty disappointing last season? You know,

I think this is going to be a sort of referendum on Trey Young and the kind of franchise cornerstone that he is, or if he is one at all, because I've said it numerous times. I think the Hawks didn't come together last year because guys didn't rally around

Trey Young. For whatever reason, the level of defensive commitment that guys refused to give last year to me speaks towards a team that just isn't connected, right? And so guys who are just like, I don't get to touch the ball on offense. I'm not going to kill myself on defense. They've upgraded the roster in ways that are literally to address Trey Young's inadequacies. And again, I'm a Trey Young guy.

I love Trey Young. I think what he does on offense is actually underappreciated the way he can raise the level of the guys around him. But this year, they've up the talent level. And again, they've addressed things that have to do with Tray Young's own weaknesses. If this don't work, then it's like, yo, Tray, you just not that type of dude, you know, because I think they have the pieces around them again to achieve competence on defense.

And Tray Young is good to great offense by himself. And so if they're not good, man, it's just a Tray Young. He's not a leader. He's not a leader of men. He's not a type of guy that galvanizes the troops and get them to move on one accord. And so, yeah, I'm looking at this. this year as a referendum on on the Tray TL experience. Rob, where are you on the Tray TL experience?

I mean, more or less in the same place. I think the defensive stuff is concerning, right? Because that's what got them through that playoff run was being connected in that way. And if that was all smoke and mirrors, and that's not replicable because of the way Trey plays or personnel or the state of Clint Capella's body or whatever that is,

that's really concerning because you need that level of defense to mop up for Trey in a lot of ways. and if he can be that kind of leader offensively, if he can carry you from good to great in that way, that's nice. I'm not sure he's the guy you're like really building around in a fundamental way if you don't feel like what's happening on the other side of the ball is at least salvageable.

And that's kind of the other thing that they need to prove this season. It's like, can this collection of players as constructed be a competent defense? Do they have that in them? Can DeAndre Hunter take a big step in that regard and fulfill some of his promise? Like, do they have the tools to do that? Because they have a deep and versatile roster, still, even after offloading a couple of guys,

they still do. I've heard of hive. They did. They did. He's rocking the headband in Sacramento. He's just living his best life. Yeah, no, I think Murray, he's kind of been miscast,

is this defensive savior. And while that's probably his forte, I ultimately don't even know if that's going to be his biggest impact on this team because he's not like the one-on-one isolation shutdown defender. He gambles a lot. He gets a lot of steals,

but he also gambles. And I don't think he's just like the way. that I think he's kind of been cast as, if only because he's kind of been broadly painted as this counterpart to trade, like the guy who will do everything that tray won't. I think the question is collectively, will Murray will a finally healthy hunter plus Capella, who by the way, Capella played most of last season. They were still 26 on defense. But collectively, is that enough to be average on defense to allow the offense to just pop off the Patriots?

And I think they will be very good on offense yet again. I mean, he's, he's, he's, He's kind of a shutdown defender. He definitely is a shutdown defender. He's just not that against big wings. He's not going to shut down Paul George. It's guards. But guards, he's definitely that type of player. I've seen it in the past anyway.

Maybe if you're saying like since he discovered his offense and San Antonio became a borderline all-star, a lot of times at a lot of guys at times when they become, you know, they get more respect to their offense. They're just like, yo, this gets me more girls, more sports center time. I'd rather do this than be fully pot committed on defense. I will hear that argument. But as far as, man, the things that I saw him do to Lou Williams, man, I'm talking about when Lou Williams was still him.

Even Steph. That was the kind of thing you got to call police for. I don't know. You do it to people outside of a basketball arena, bro. We've already started in the conversation. He can't guard big wings. Then I'm already like, well, that's. But that's not what Trace.

20 of the best isolation scores was messed up at, though. But who is going to guard those guys? Listen, I think... DeAndre Hunter. That's the point, right? That's the model. Well, okay, I think Murray fits their overall approach here, because I

do think what he can do is generate steals and transition opportunities, which is going to get this team out and running. And I think that overall makes sense. And allowing him to handle the ball, they're already talking about Trey playing more off ball. That, like, he creates all these different

interesting wrinkles. And I think overall he'll have a big impact. I just don't know about him as some sort of like isolation defensive savior. That's all. That's all I'm saying. He's not going to save a defense unto himself. But yeah, the idea of if he can be on ball, if Hunter can guard the big wing, if Capella can be some version of who he was two years ago, like that's a good foundation for a team defense.

And then you can hide Trey wherever it is you need to hide him. And so like that's the luxury he gives you ultimately is like it's not Trey and Kevin Herder playing together in which Kevin Hurter has to be Clay Thompson out there. You know, like it's a little bit more manageable. So it brings us to the last remaining member of the starting lineup, one John Collins, because this is my essential question. Are we going to just pretend that the Hawks didn't try to trade John Collins to everyone over the offseason? Yes, because that's what the money's for.

We just talked about, we just talked about Pascal Seaccom. He's been in trade rumors for what, two, three years now. Everybody, and he's had his rough patches over there. his outbursts over there. Everybody expects that he's going to come back and bust his ass and play hard. He was also a morey guy. So he was like,

he was born in darkness. You know, he's used to this stuff. So, so to me, it's like, yeah, John Collins,

man, come out and prove that you're worth all the money that these people paid you. Or if you don't want to be there, make yourself attractive enough to train. How about that? That's not how this works,

though. I agree with you, but that's just not how this. works. And I wonder if he is now third or fourth in the packing order offensively, like how that's going to work out. And I think the bigger question is, is he the optimal four if you're going to be committed to Capella at the five or even

a Kwan do down the road? Is he the optimal four for this team? I think so, because he's switchable in ways that Capella isn't. Theoretically, he shoots it and stretches it in a way that Kepela and a Kongu can't. I just think the vertical space,

Jason Capella don't really do that anymore. You know what I'm saying? Like, he is, and I, like, theoretically, and I've been saying this, John Collins, yes, he's a prototypical four in a lot of ways. Theoretically, when he's at his best, it's just he has not shown his best play. Last year was, it was embarrassing at times

watching this dude last year in his effort. I think you just have to hope that you can sweep that stuff under the rug enough to keep it moving and hope that with some of these wing guys too that again you've cleared out enough bodies that everyone is like thinking about their minutes and their touches a little bit less than they were last season

because that's where so much of that that weird team dynamic around whatever it is that Trey's doing on a given night comes from right? Like if you don't play because you don't, you think you don't play because you don't score and Trey's not giving you the ball that's a problem. If John Collins is feeling fraught about his position

because he was on the trade block that's a problem. Like they have to find ways to make him feel integral to what they're doing. I don't know if they're willing to do that. I don't know if maybe Melas

going out of his way to do that, but that's kind of where they are. And then it's like, Trey, we get it. You're a great shot creator. You're an elite playmaker. We get all of that stuff. But you ain't the type of person

who stops being a threat once you give the ball up. Right? When you're John Wall on his prime of Westbrook or some of these other guys are like, yeah, but when I do give the ball up,

my value is so severely diminished. It's hard to want to not, you know, monopolize these possessions. Tray, and you're not that. You're going to make your team still a threat when you don't have the rock and you have competent, capable people on your team. Be willing to do this shit because that's how you get people to want to mask your deficiencies on the other end of the floor, i.e. produce winning results for your damn team. So if you want to claim to be a freaking winner, you got to be willing to do this selfless stuff. Because I think a lot of times people like,

oh, I am selfless. Look at my assist numbers. It's like, bro, you are freaking monopolizing all of these possessions. And everybody wants to get their turn touching the ball. So be selfless in other ways besides, you know, fake me and Magic Johnson in your head. Yeah, a hot take, assists are not selfless. Never have been. As soon as they started counting them, they stopped being selfless.

So you guys are buying the John. Collins future in Atlanta is what you're saying. I'm buying that he's good. I'm buying that he can be good on this team. Yeah. With the right approach to the game of basketball. Yeah, I'm buying that he can be like a huge contributor to winning on this team. Would they be better though?

Not will. If they treated him for more of like a wing type, you move Hunter to like a three, four, you get another combo three, four. And then it's, I don't, I think that's up. I think that's because. See, you say Hunter. Nate McMillan just want to put a congo in there. Well, that's the other question here is the name McMillan backer.

Oh, yeah, he ain't the one. He ain't the one. I've been saying that's last year. Is he the leader in the clubhouse to get fired first in the NBA? There's some pressure there. I mean, just look at the Dejante Murray trade, how much they gave up to make that happen. That's pressure, right?

Yeah, Nate McMillan ain't the one. I hate firing dudes. I hate doing that, but like, Yeah. There's just no proof that this guy is going to be creative enough and, you know, just have the authority to put his imprint on this thing. Like, it's just no proof of it. Maybe things are changed.

I would love to see it because I just think they have a fun roster. But, man, I'm skeptical that Nate McMillan will be to want to pull this all together. I think we're underselling a little bit how fun it's going to be to watch Tray and Dejante together. Like, I don't want this to be. all doom and gloom. I'm really excited about that pairing and what they can do and seeing what Trey is open to in terms of some variety in the role that we're kind of begging him to take. I think I think that could be really healthy. Yeah, I had the Hawks above the Raptors. I don't know. Did you guys have the same? I'm looking at the results right now. Waz, you had the Raptors first.

I'm just, I just got so burned by the Hawks last year. So when I was filling it out, I was just extra down on them. Sure. But they're conceit. They, they are more talented than the Toronto Raptors are. This is a talented deep team. I think the problem is the East is just very talented and top heavy, unfortunately. And if they don't break into like the top six, if they are a surefire playoff team, are you not reaching expectations, especially with a newish type of owner? And so the cards are, the deck is stacked against McMillan to begin with. But, you know, it would be nice if the team played defense because that's supposed to be his expertise. So,

All right. Last team on part two, number 15, you're a Los Angeles Lakers. Did you set this up? Yes. Like them as a closed, I feel like you may have massaged this a little bit.

Well, if I remember correctly, Isaiah had to break a tie between this and the team we're going to start part three with. So yes, I have to decide here would be a nice stopping point. But I also felt like we would need a lot of room to discuss the Lakers. So I wanted to clear out,

give us some space. All right. I have a question. It involves Ross, but maybe we should talk about them more big picture. Should I just do my optimism spiel for you guys?

I would love to hear it. Okay. I think the big thing is everyone is overcorrected a little too much on Anthony Davis and LeBron James. Anthony Davis in particular, two years ago,

two calendar years, because the bubble screwed up the schedule, we were saying that the most dominant force in the NBA was AD and LeBron. And you could put anything around them, it didn't matter.

This is what was going to decide the fate of the NBA for the next couple years. And while that did not happen, obviously, I don't think what happened in the interim should be shaking us so much

to suggest that these guys fully healthy and engage in having just even a basic level of competence around them still can't be pretty good. The West is much deeper. The NBA overall is much tougher.

And so, yeah, I'm not going to sit here and be like, they're a surefire top four seed. There are even a top six. But I do think this team and AD and LeBron in particular are being undersold in large part because of the jokes. Like, yeah, like things have not gone well and everyone loves Chauden Freud and everyone loves bagging on the Lakers. I do too.

Trust me, we did plenty of podcasts about it last year. It was great. but I think this is a classic situation where the narrative is completely overwhelmed to the point where like actually the truth is probably something closer to, they could still be pretty good if X, Y, and Z. So that's where I'm at.

Justin, I hear you. I respect you as a colleague. I just want... I see you. I see your scene. I acknowledge you. Absolutely. I just want to know how it hit you

when Darwin Ham announced the Lakers starting lineup and you found out that Kendrick Nunn and Damien Jones were going to be in it. That's all I want to know. Listen, if Kendrick Nunn can start and play, this team is like already starting off in a better place than they were last year. Like that guy can actually, in theory, hit a three-pointer, which they didn't have virtually anyone outside of Hillbilly Kobe, Austin Reeves last year. So, yeah, Kendrick Nunn is a big factor.

Honestly, if you want to get into that. That's a dark place to start. Yeah, sure. So my problem with the AD argument that you just laid out is I get it in theory, except at no point last year did AD play at the level of the player he was when we were calling him dominant. Sure. That's a one. Like when he was healthy, so like there's the part that he doesn't play.

And then there's the part that when he did play last year, there were like two or three games. is like, oh, snap, look at AD. 30 and 13. Wow. Aggressive. Got to the line 10 times. Wow. Try it on defense. Wow. You know, like we were blown away when it happened two and three times last year. That's a one. He didn't, he hasn't shown that level in two, three years, basically now.

We're talking about two years we're talking about he hasn't shown that level. And then the Lakers as a whole, right, the season that they were defending their championship, when AD would go out, they were still a top five defense. Last year was so far removed from that. And so I'm just asking, like, even if AD gets to, you know, top four or five defender in the NBA level, who's around him to supplement and compliment that in the ways that Caruso, Caldwell Pope,

and Kyle Kuzma were able to, when they were at the height of what they were doing? You know what I mean? Like at a certain point, the perimeter defenders have to take on the identity of this is how we win games. We're not going to win games by being some cutesy, beautiful game, offensive machine. We have to win games on defense. We're not going to achieve offense of some crazy level. And do they have the guys on their team that one have the mindset and two have the talent to do it?

No. And I want to table the supporting cast. conversation and the Russ conversation and just talk about AD just quickly. I think my counter to that is a lot of the things you're bringing up could be said about AD throughout his entire career. Like, oh, he's not motivated enough in certain instances. When things go bad, he has the tendency to coast. Oh, he's always injured, yada, yeah. But he still manages to drag himself out of this. I'm actually more concerned about what happened to his jump shot. Like, the fact that he can't shoot three-pointers at all, not even credibly anymore, is

baffling to me because he's always had a nice shot. He's always been a very competent shooter. He used to do a lot of mid-range stuff that was pretty dangerous. I think that is a bigger factor, if only because they just don't have the three-point shooting, even if they get some three-point shooters by trading Russ in order to compensate for that. Well, yeah, even just the mid-range stuff, I like the we're creating gradations with this with AD because there really is like, if he's just engaged and healthy and working defensively, that's already a pretty good, if not really good player. If he has the shot on top of it, that's the kind of thing that gets you deep into the playoffs. We've just seen no evidence since the bubble to suggest he's ever going to replicate that again.

Like he was shooting like 50% on midrange in there in addition to the threes. I don't think that's who he is anymore for whatever reason. And that is concerning when you take everything else into the picture and we have all of these caveats on him already. As you said, Justin, these are not new problems in terms of his effort level, in terms of his health concerns. Like this has been hanging over him the whole time. And so to expect him to be a dramatically different guy, I'm not sure I see that. See, I think the threes and the mid-rangers bothered me a lot less if he's being aggressive and putting pressure on the rim in both pick and roll and in one-on-one. Because, all right, let somebody else take the threes then, right?

Like, actually put pressure on the rim and have defenses suck in and let other guys take open threes because you're being so aggressive. about pressuring the paint. Like, do that. Do the work of pressuring the paint, AD. Don't be some passive dude who all you ever do offensively is take fadeaways from 16 feet. That's not an effective player. Like, you play with LeBron James.

Like, I've watched them be a dominant pick and roll duo, you know, that didn't necessarily rely on AD being able to pop. Just straight up being like, yo, like, are you going to commit resources to stopping AD on this role? Well, shit, LeBron's going to just drive free to the hoop there. You don't want that either, right? Like, I've watched them be dominant that way. Do that.

Just do that, please. Let me just see this guy. Get to the line 11 times in the game. Shoot 11 free throws, AB. Like, do that. I agree with you. I almost wonder if he should be looking at this more like Janus, where it's like, I think he should be a more,

yes, he should assault the rim, but he also should probably focus more on the mid-range jumper as opposed to, like, stretching out to three and the three should be something that you leave open, when you're wide open and you take that, which probably brings us to our next question. He could only be that player if he has adequate shooting around him to provide him the space to do so.

So the Lakers, as I'm sure anyone listening to this podcast, have probably been privy to, like, have kind of gone on this PR assault to really rehab Russ as this consummate teammate who was just ready to do whatever is necessary and yada, yada, yada, yeah, to the point where it's like, it's pretty apparent. I don't know if anyone has any counters to that. We're all in agreement, right?

That this is all bullshit. Oh, yeah. You can see like the talking points poking out of their pocket. You know, it's pretty obvious what's happening here. The best part was when Jeannie Bus to the athletic called Russ the best player in the Lakers last year. And Sam Amick followed up on it because it was pretty shocking. And she can change your comment to consistent. Not most consistent.

and not his consistency just like really set the tone for us. He was consistent. So yeah, it seems like everyone is aligned and especially after LeBron signed the extension that something has to happen here. And it seems like it's only a matter of time

until they bring in the help that they need. It seems like the trade with the Pacers is inevitable. And so I'm almost pricing in that Buddy Hill and Miles Turner some version of that trade is going to happen, if not before the season, then early on in the season. Is that kind of how you guys are thinking as well? Look, we're forming in a different calculation here, right? Like, if you give me AD and Miles Turner and they're active and engaged, all right, we're talking

about something now because we're going to guard the hell out of people at that point. If that's, if that's truly what we're talking about, then we're talking about something. But this team is presently constructed. Did disaster with a capital D. Okay. Yeah, I think I am future casting a lot here. And I'm just like going based off of vibes and assumptions, I guess. But like, it seems pretty apparent that everyone is in agreement that this team is not going to work as currently constituted.

And then something is going to change. It's just a matter of what that something is and when that happens. But we need you to live in the now. This is the team we got. like we're going to have to watch this for some period of time until until they do something with it. Listen, I watched a half of Lakers preseason basketball. And while the first like two minutes were fucking awesome. Like Russ drawing defenders and then dumping it off to I believe it was Kendrick Donne.

I'm like, let's go. This team is back, baby. And then they scored a total of 75 points against the Sacramento Kings, who we just described might be one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA recently. So it will be bad. But I guess if they figure this out soon, I guess let's have two separate conversations. Where do they land if this team stays as it is for a full season? Playing.

Play in. Or maybe worse. I think probably in the play in. Okay. Was. This team, as it is. Yes. Play it.

Okay. Ten team. What if it is now... Meaning they got to win the two games. Right. Right. What if it's now Anthony Davis, LeBron James, Miles Turner, Buddy Healed, let's just say Kendrick Nunn. I don't know who would be the fifth. Patrick Beverly, whoever. Yeah, I think that that version of the team is LeBron embracing his true reality, i.e., you have to create for this team. All of this is, oh, I'd rather be off the ball and stop it. It's your job to create offense for this team.

and AD and Miles Turner are going to anchor a hell of a defense, huge size, beating people up on the boards, beating people up on the glass. That's the basis of your team. You want to be a nitty-gritty team and you grind it out because LeBron James is one of the greatest creators, playmakers that we've ever seen in the game. Yeah, that team has an identity. You know, this, I don't know what the hell I'm looking at. But even that identity might only get you the fifth or sixth seed. Like I still, I still can't see them crack in the top four.

Is, is huge for this team. You have a chance. For the first time since 2020. Well, hold on. You have a chance. Like,

you're saying LeBron James in a playoff series. Yeah. Maybe in the best case scenario with home court advantage in the first round. Like, that's pretty fucking good. I guess, and that's what I'm saying. It's like,

that's why I have so much optimism. Because if you just have one or two more competent role players around this team. Doesn't it look completely different? Aren't we saying like, oh, the Lakers, yeah, maybe they could be pretty good all of a sudden. And that's why I think like suggesting that they're just this disaster

when you still have Anthony Davis and LeBron James is a bit too far. I think I might be able to get on this ledge with you except that I was listening to the most recent episode of Real Ones and they brought our pal Sasha Shaw on to talk about the Lakers. And that's like, who do you think your favorite Lakers are going to be this season?

and the way she gravitated toward Dwayne Bacon over the course of that conversation it was just bleak I can't lie to him he's on the team he's on the team technically on the team that's where we are in terms of the supporting cat like we haven't even talked about Pat Beverly who I guess is in this mix somewhere stirring shit up

it's a weird team the Shruder Sons the Shruder sounds sure Lonnie Walker if you're into that sort of thing like I don't know man I mean yeah the Miles Turner buddy healed situation would be Nice. Doesn't solve everything. Doesn't really get them into the contending mix necessarily.

But it makes them more dangerous. There's no doubt about that. Okay. And so that's why we find them at number 15 on our list. I think I was way higher than you guys if I'm looking at the rankings. Definitely way higher than me. I had them 13. You guys had them 16 and 17.

I just believe, man. What? I believe. This is the 13th best team in the NBA? I think the, I mean, when you look at the teams ranked behind them, Like, I think they're better than the Hawks. I don't know if I would rank them ahead of the two teams I have right behind them right now after what we've seen. But that would be for the next episode.

Your Miles Turner thing, yeah, that would make them better than the Hawks. This team right now ain't better than the Hawks. I think if they get Turner and healed, I think we're talking like top 10 is not, like, is not, it's possible. Top 10 team. All I know is like, look, last episode you gave Miles Turner Max contract. This episode, he's finals MVP. Will somebody carry a torch for me the way you carry

one for Miles Turner? The tape will show that I walk that back. So I just want to put that out. All right. That's it for part two. We'll be back Friday with part three until then for Isaiah Blakely on production.