The Ringer NBA Show - Preseason NBA Power Rankings, Part 4 | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos are back with Part 4 of their annual preseason power rankings, this time ranking teams 15-11. Miami Heat (04:24) Indiana Pacers (19:42) Cleveland Cavaliers (41:09) Los Angeles Lakers (53:19) Orlando Magic (71:24) The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello football fans. Shield Capadia here to tell you that the Ringer NFL show is the best place to be for fun and in-depth analysis of all your favorite teams and players throughout the 2024 season. Join me, Stephen Ruiz and Deonté Lee twice a week for an insightful preview of the weekly slate of games every Friday, followed by the Big Monday Recap Show where we delve into our patented hot takes on all the NFL action. And don't forget about Wednesdays, which will feature me, a special QB segment from Stephen, a breakdown of the biggest storylines around the league from our own Nora Princiatti, plus much more.

You won't want to miss any of it, so make sure you subscribe to the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and follow at Ringer NFL on Instagram, TikTok X, and YouTube. Group chat, I am Justin Barrier, joining me. Rob Mahoney, Big Was. We call them the Pod Squad, the actual Pod Squad. You guys get that reference?

Not at all. What's going on? Little Love is Blind? No? No. Is that from the UK? No. Well, they have a UK version.

Yeah. So I'm asking everyone. Everyone was talking about it. I heard a lot of, I heard really unlocked the show. The differentiation of the UK accents kind of broke the formula. Wow. You know a lot about the UK version of Lovs Blonde,

but not the actual concept. I'm fucking locked in, Justin. But what is actually going on with the reference you're making? No, it's just they call the people who were in the pods, the pod squad. I just thought maybe we could appropriate it. I thought that might be cool, appeal to maybe our Gen Z fans out there. But, no, this is just weird and not that interesting.

So that's cool. Was, where are you on reality dating shows right now? Are you plugged into anything? I'm not plugged in myself. But if my woman wants to watch, I'm not going to fight it. You know, I get enjoyment out of it. I'm no better than everybody else who watches it who feels good, getting on my high horse. Like, these people's lives are such a mess.

I could never Are you kidding me? Yeah, so I enjoy it. I get a kick out of it. Yeah, elitist was gets to preen around a little bit. Nothing wrong with that. I'm still a coastal elite at heart.

That's right, we all are. Oh, well, I assume if you guys aren't watching that, you've been plugged into the preseason action that has been happening across the NBA, right? Of course. Yeah, every minute, Justin. Totally. I have to say, I love the write-of-passage for every season,

which is trying to log into NBA League Pass, it not being logged in for some reason, me having to scramble to find my password for 20 minutes, it not working. But I have to say the NBA has taken a big step this year where I logged out of the app and logged back in, and it worked. And I feel like we are now into the future squarely in 2024

and perhaps beyond, because typically that would take two to three more hours. I can't decide of this airing of grievances is our most relatable content or our most alien. content. Do you think people identify with the League Pass struggles of folks like us? If you're listening to this podcast, I hope so.

Honestly, that's probably true. If you're this deep into the middle of our power rankings, you probably are having the same technical issues with League Pass that all of us are. Or at least I'm wondering what the quality of these illegal streams are these days. We didn't say that. Spotify Legal, we did

not say that. That was not endorsed by the Group Chat podcast. legal methods only for watching authorized NBA content. That's right. Yeah. But I was watching, you know, I sunk into my couch a little wine on there. Okay. That seems like the way to do it.

A real, real sexy evening with the Wizards and the Atlanta Hawks. It was a good time. Anything else before we get to the meat of the show, preseason power rankings, part four, part four of six. We're just rolling around here. Brandon Ingram isn't playing in a preseason game as we're recording this. We'll keep track of that. But no, let's get to the action here.

We're starting with number 15 on the docket. The Miami Heat. I don't know what to do with this team, Rob. I feel like they're going to be in the mix, but how much is obviously up to maybe the health of one Jimmy Butler, I would say. Yeah, I think it's as much as they care to be and as much as they are healthy enough to be because despite the fact that sometimes it's hard for people in our position

to know exactly what to do with Miami. And I think from the state of the general NBA discourse, you may not know it, the heat are really good. And they were basically a stones throw away from crashing the middle of the Eastern Conference picture last year. A couple of games go the other way and all of a sudden they're really in the thick of it.

They just got really dinged up, particularly at the end of last season and didn't have enough to get over the finish line. But this is going to be a team that's formidable again. We would love to see a fully healthy season and a fully engaged regular season from Jimmy Butler. I don't know if we're going to get that or not. But they have what they need to fight with the rest of this group.

And honestly, they have what they need, I think, to displace some of the other Eastern conference teams we're going to talk about today. If they can just make a little bit of run in the standings by virtue of being a little healthier. Yeah, and I wonder if the heat are a sneaky, slight dysfunction candidate team, because if you guys paid attention to the media day that they had, Jimmy Butler kind of went out of his way

to be like, yeah, I'm here, no gimmicks, no funny here. Like, it felt like everything he said, you know, the undertone was that he was going at Pat Riley who, like, completely just dissed him in the exit interview that he did after last season was like, we need guys to play. No, Jimmy Butler's not getting an extension. Y'all, like he...

Also took shots of Tyler Hero, by the way, in that same press conference. Yeah, like, he went at these guys. And the way that GMs just don't do in 2024, like, it makes sense that it's Pat Riley, who's, like, kind of old and is the most untouchable in terms of job security of probably any GM in the league right now. And so I thought it was interesting that Jimmy went in there, like, tongue-in-cheek, like talking about how serious he's taking it. But I think he is going to because it's my belief that he's going to treat this like a contract.

year and basically ball out and try to show everybody, you know, in Miami, if not the rest of the league, that he's still a top-tier guy and is deserving of another huge contract. Yeah, it just seems like both sides realize they need Jimmy Butler to be locked in for this to work. And so I think it's the best for both parties for him to go into this as a contract year, as a prove it year to see if he can land one last big payday. I think the concern with Jimmy is just that, how long will he play along with that? Is this a Kyrie situation where he has two good months? Does he decide to hit the check button and go force a trade somewhere else?

I think that's very much in play, especially considering his track record with Minnesota and whatnot. But if he's just on the floor, I think this is a completely different situation, Rob. They need him. They need Terry Rozier to show up. They need Harold to show up. There's a lot here to like.

I just, I don't know what to make of it because I just don't know how many games all these guys are ultimately going to, play. It's not just the games played. It's also them maybe being in a game or not being in a game. It's just that whole dance that they tend to play with the injury report that becomes

wearing, I assume, on the roster itself. Yeah, it makes it dizzying to try to project what the future of this team is going to be. They're just impossible to forecast for exactly that reason. And part of the reason they're impossible to forecast is, as you outlined, Justin, how reliant they are on Jimmy Butler, period,

and on Jimmy Butler being very good. He is their only real avenue to high-level consistent shot creation. Bam is going to do a good bit of it and can do it to a certain degree. Tyler, Hero, your mileage may vary as to how much you really like him participating in that role,

but he's going to do it. And, you know, Terrioseer, who I will say, didn't really have a chance to settle in after he got traded to the heat last season. He's a little duplicative of Hero. I think they kind of navigate the floor in similar ways as creators, but having another guy who can do some of that is helpful.

All of that's great. the heat still have a really hard time kind of getting over league average offensively rather like actually making themselves a formidable offense. Jimmy is a way to do that, whether he has the ball in his hands or not, like he's just such an impactful player for them and is such a transformative piece of their rotation

that if he's not completely engaged and if he's not completely healthy, they're just a dramatically different team. And I don't know what to do with all that. Yeah, if Jimmy and Bam can play 68 or more games, games both this year and they both play at an all-star level, which we know BAM is absolutely going to. Jimmy has sort of like, let's face it, he's treated the regular season as one long preseason in previous years. But if he's taking it seriously where he's going pedal to the

metal the entire time, like they have the kind of role players that can make it work, right? That can make them one of the best teams. Like Tyler Hero, say what you want about him. He's a known quantity in terms of being a quality role player. Same for Rozier. And even Jaime Hockes, who like just one year into his career, we can say, yo, we know this guy is a high quality player. Like, Yovic looked great in the summer, I thought, at times. Like, he's looking like a really good keeper.

And the heat somehow, every single year, find these scrap heap guys that turn into bona fide rotational NBA. They do it every single season. Alec Burke's month is coming. I don't know what month it's going to be, but it's coming. I don't know, but you don't think so? Maybe. I mean, we've all expected an Alex Burr month or two or three and they've never comes, but maybe that happens in Miami where these things tend to happen.

Yeah, to Waz's point, I think when the heat engage in that and they sign a player, I do look at the player a little bit differently because they have that track record. You know, like them picking Josh Christopher up off the scrap heap as a second draft guy. I'm like, maybe he does. have something. I don't know. Like, we'll see. But it is the kind of team wise where they give you a chance to either restart your career or find something you didn't have before or recapture whatever the best of your

former self was. And just the last note on the Jimmy thing, because I think we tend to have short memories about these guys. I remember it clear as day when they signed this extension that he's on right now. A lot of people raised their eyebrows and was like, hmm, why the hell would you do that? people kind of was like, that's a bad extension. Nobody thinks Jimmy Butler is overpaid right now, right? And so I wonder.

It depends on how much he plays. Yeah, exactly. And so I wonder what the framework of another deal could be, you know, if it's like, Jimmy, look, man, we're not going to pay you max money to be a guy who barely plays and is long in the tooth. But, you know, what if they could guarantee him a nice amount of money and he could just finish it out in Miami and they get this thing done. Yeah, so he has a $52 million player option next season.

I think you're right. I think he'd be hard pressed to get that amount elsewhere. But maybe they can sign him for more years and that's what he's looking for, long-term security bank, more money overall. I think this brings us to the question that we have down here is whether or not Jimmy will make it through the entire season. And now I purposely wrote that quite vague where it's like, will he get there because of health reasons?

Or will he get there? because he get traded. Rob, what do you think? I think he will still be a member of the Heat through this season. I almost hope that he... Wads, I heard you, you're laying out kind of like

what the path for the healthy version of the Heat could be and how many games they should play. I'm almost cool with him playing fewer games if he takes the games that he plays in the regular season more seriously. Because the problem was not just

that he was missing games due to injury and also kind of question mark, we don't really quite know why he's not playing tonight reasons. but then he would show up and he's playing half speed January Jimmy Butler basketball and it's just not good enough for this heat team like they need to be elevated and they need their star to drag them there in some ways or at least one of their co-stars. I think it's fitting that Jimmy is kind of the big question mark and the health of this team

is a big question mark. What's certain is this is going to be a really good defense because they're always a really good defense and they're going to be a really good defense because Bam is really fucking good at his job. And they're really good at keeping teams out of the paint. They're going to be flexible. They're going to be versatile. It's just like, can they get from Jimmy exactly what they need? And I want to believe that because I've seen that version of the player and God knows, we've seen what it can do for Miami when Jimmy is even relatively healthy and fully committed to the role of what he should do. They get to the NBA finals. That's what happens. I think that

may be a lofty goal given the way that the top of the East looks right now, but they're always going to be competitive and they're always going to give themselves a chance. And they're going to give Jimmy a chance to prove the kind of superstar that he can be again. The irony of this Heat team is that they kind of have a hole at the superstar spot. And Jimmy is really the only one that could fill that, at least on the offensive end. Bam, obviously, consistent All-Star, huge impact on the defense. But I think it's pretty telling that they're even saying the heat as an organization, like, maybe you should take more threes.

You know, like that component has to be there because this team is quite deep. Like there's a lot of guys I think we like on this roster, Hawkes in particular. We can talk about Kleeal Ware, their recent draft pick who looked pretty good in Summer League. There's like two to three deep, and it's not just, it takes us a while to even get to the Haywood Highsmith types, you know, the guys that they brought up through the system. It's just that they just don't have the superstar to maybe push them over the top. And so they're beckoning either a hero to maybe turn into that, which hasn't gone well. That hasn't been a whole plan that has really borne out. Or you need Jimmy to step up. And so I understand why they're here in the

situation was. Yeah. Look, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they were well positioned to be, you know, one of the five best in the top six of the east. If, you know, all things, uh, go right. Again, um, you never know what freaking G-leager undrafted, whatever guy just steps up and becomes a piece for them as seems to be the case every single year. But all eyes would definitely be on Jimmy Butler and particularly like, just what

this guy is saying, because, you know, he's had a spicy past, right? Like, you know, we talked about the town's trade on here and what was so interesting that he was going back to Tibbs. It's like, Tibbs brought Jimmy Butler in to be like this hard ass, this tough love guy in Minnesota. And that's kind of been his reputation since, like, this prickly sort of, you know, will say anything that's on his mind kind of guy. I wonder if that, what some people would say, incendiary posture, if that could work in Miami if things aren't going the way that he likes it.

But, you know, I see things going pretty decently, man. I tend to always be a heat optimist. Yeah. Well, I was actually, I think, noticeably higher on the heat than you guys. You both had them at 17. I had him at 13. I think I'm just trusting in the infrastructure a little bit more. As I'm, like, parsing through some of the margins on some of these teams, because it is.

kind of a coin flip, especially in this range, the right in the middle of the NBA. It's just like, pretty deep. Maybe Jimmy's locked in. That's enough to push them over, for instance, the Pacer's a team will have a little discussion on coming up here. But, you know, it could quickly go the other way, as we've seen time and time again with the heat. Yeah.

Any other guys, Rob? I think maybe two in conjunction, one emerging and one going. Like, I think they are going to miss Caleb Martin, who they lost to the Sixers in the offseason. and if anything, that puts a little more pressure on Jimmy to be available. They're just going to need more forward minutes from him. They also are going to need Nikola Jovich to be good again.

And I think in the playoffs, he had a stint that he's in a really hard spot as this sort of like stretch four, but also like you don't want to be marginalized in that role. You don't want to just be sitting in the corner. It's very easy when you play that sort of role to turn invisible. And I thought he did a pretty good job of both knocking down some shots and also get into the action, getting into the mix, helping as a facilitator, in front of other ways to contribute

in a way that makes him look like a pretty decently well-rounded player for this team. I think he can do some good things for them, and a lot of that's going to continue, you know, banking on his development as a player and his physical development as he gets bigger and stronger, but he looks like a guy. Yeah, I assume he'll start again.

I think so. And I do want, yeah, it's kind of like the point forward or whatever you want to call him at this point. It makes me wonder what they do with the guys, guard spots, though. Are we assuming that they're going to start Rozier and Hero together in the back cart with Jimmy? Right?

I imagine so. Right. Unless you want to plug Duncan Robinson in there and bring Hero off the bench. Ideally, one of Rosier or Hero would be your sixth man. I think there's some political reasons that might not happen. I think there's a big push for Miami that

they just need Tyler Hero to be his best most confident self and maybe the concession there is that you start him to make that happen. or at least try to make that happen? Josh Richardson? No, we're giving up. He'll play. Yeah, okay.

It'll play. I don't think he's going to do anything meaningful. I think he's kind of past the meaningful part of what he does. But he'll definitely, I mean, Spow likes him, and he's one of those guys that's going to guard a hell out of people when he's out there. I just think his offensive game has proven to be a lot more limited than I think we hoped in previous parts of his career, especially like the shooting and, you know, some of the secondary ball handling stuff.

But he'll play. He's a heat guy. But he is kind of indicative of just how decimated they were at the end of last year. Like they just did not have the healthy bodies to even be able to compete. And getting a Josh Richardson back healthy and available and part of your rotation,

that's an upgrade over what they had. Like getting Terry Rozier back in the lineup, able to kind of get his feet wet, have a training camp with this team. That's a big upgrade. So all of the offseason work did is mostly around the edges, but I think just getting their lineup back is going to be a real boon for them. Yeah, they really didn't do much outside of Berks and getting Ware in there.

Where I'm pretty interested to see just because the heat don't really miss on draft picks. There have been some middling ones, guys like a chew and whatnot, but by and large, when they're drafting in this range, they're doing quite well, Hawke's Hero, Bam, for instance. So the track record is there. I'm curious if they play Bam and Ware together. There might be enough shooting between the two of them to go a little double big. maybe not this year, but maybe like one or two years down the road. That's a consistent front court. But he provides him some options.

And he's like a super big athletic guy at that position. And so he's intriguing. He definitely fits the heat mold. Definitely. All right, let's move along here to the Indiana Pacers. I got to be honest. I don't know what to do with the Pacers. On the one hand, they make it to the Eastern Conference finals.

Obviously, the road was just covered in golden bricks or whatever. that is. The path was clear, whatever you want to say. I believe in them going forward. I think they have something here. They are really deep. And clearly they have an approach that is effective in the regular season.

I just look at the East overall, Rob, and I stack them up against some of the more talented teams, some of the more superstar-laden teams. And they don't quite make it there for me. Are you in the same camp? Well, they're not on the level. the Celtics and the Knicks, given... But even the Sixers and the Bucks, I think, is who we're talking about here.

I think maybe, realistically, they are probably more in this cohort with the heat, and then we're going to talk about the magic and the Cavs. Those are the two teams kind of left on the board here. That feels like a fair grouping to me, and where you put the Pacers within it is the question. To me, I could see this as being a 50-win candidate. I think the Pacers, they were already at 47. you're getting not a lot of changes to the rotation in terms of off-season movement,

but you're a full season of Pascal Seacom, which is huge, and the development of what is still ultimately like a very young roster. There are a lot of guys on this team that could take a meaningful step forward. And when you have the certainty of Seacom and the wildcard variance of the development,

I think they could take a jump. I think they could get to 50 wins. And that's a triumphant season, honestly. Yeah, their variance feels so haliburton tied to me, because I'm starting to get a little bit worried that he might just be this permanent injury candidate guy throughout his career. Because the variance, to use that word again,

of his performance in the playoffs, was kind of like eye-opening. Like, there were times where he looked like this bona fide superstar kind of guy, particularly in that Nick series, where, you know, he was getting a lot of threes up and making them and pushing the page. and being this dangerous player.

And in other games where he just was not there, he was a non-factor. And it's hard for me to believe that that's not injury-related. I think the best players in the league, even when they're not dropping 50 on you and looking like the apex of what they do, what makes them the best is there's a baseline level of excellence that you can expect game in and game out,

even when they're not just completely, you know, decapitating their... opponents. That was not the case with Halliburton. And I think what's weird for me is that he didn't really take any time off the summer to recoup what could have been a particular. It was getting many minutes. In Paris, yeah. Yeah. Well, he didn't play for Team USA for sure. It's a walking city, though. Like, you're on your feet. I'm just curious to see what that looks like going forward. Because if you're not taking any time off,

that means you're completely healthy. Or you're just a guy who we have to be on muscle problem watch your whole career. Like that's worrisome to me. Well, this is also the kind of thing, Justin. And then when you're wrapping your head around the construction of these teams, there's a big difference when a guard is your best player. In part for this reason. Like Tyrese Halliburton has to be really mobile.

and really dynamic to be a really effective NBA player. If you're Nicola Yokic or LeBron James or Luca Donchich, put those guys on the block, put them on the high post, put them in a position where they can just shoot over the top of people, and even if they're not moving well because of some nagging injury, they can find ways to be really, really effective. Halliburton does get boxed in as soon as things start acting up with his body. And that is a problem, but we've seen when he's healthy,

what they can do, and we've seen when he's healthy, what the Pacer's offense can do. It's incendiary stuff. Yeah, this team is pretty deep at this point, and they have a lot of young guys who can come around and find new levels to them, Benedict Mathurin, another guy who didn't really see

late in the year because he was hurt. We'll see how he works himself into the mix here. And so I actually feel pretty good about them as a regular season team. I think there's a type of team that can overperform expectations just because the Pace could win them a lot of games. They could shoot teams out of games pretty, quickly and all of a sudden that game is over. I think my concern is more

at the highest levels in the playoffs because as much as I thought the Siakam move was the right move, they've picked their path at this point. I think they've done a good job of keeping feeder systems in play here. They signed a lot of extensions over the offseason, for instance. Maybe they could turn Nebhardt, for instance, into

something if he proves that he could be a starter somewhere else, right? They have draft picks outside of the two that they gave to Toronto. So there's like upside here. This isn't a team that's just completely locked into place, but in terms of like superstar level talent, it's probably Haliburton and Siakum and then whatever you can get from the young guys. And so Halliburton does need to be a top 10 MVP caliber guy, I think, to take the next giant leap forward. They could still be good with

them as the version of him last year. But, you know, in addition to the injuries, you know, he did look a little just hesitant at time to really drive the ball in the postseason. I'm just like, I'm on watch. I'm not dubious, but he is on watch. this year to show us that he is the guy from early last regular season. Yeah. I want to square a couple things because I agree with you that there were points in the playoffs where Halliburton, whether because of injuries or otherwise, looked a little hesitant. Look like he was figuring out playoff basketball and he's trying to get up to the right

speed and pick his right spots. And that's a whole process that every young player goes through. And the Pacers have a lot of guys who are going through that. They were also the best half-court offense in the entire playoffs. and a great offense overall relative to the playoff field. And so does that mean that they're going to blow the doors off the Celtics if they play them this year? No, but they're very good and very productive, and they know how they want to play. And I think that alone puts them in a state of confidence and comfort that some of these other teams,

like if we're talking about the Cavs, for example, don't always have. Man, I think if Siakum plays the way that he played in the playoffs in the regular season, he's going to make an all-star team and he's going to be unstoppable because he was relentless, man, in the playoffs about posting up certain matches, pushing the pace, like just being a drive threat at every single point, a free throw line threat at every single. He was like, damn, you know, he was their best player at many points in the playoffs. Again, a team that, you know, let's face it, the Knicks were falling apart by the time they played them in the second round. And Boston blew their freaking doors off.

But he was their best player on a conference finals Eastern Conference team, right? And so if he can carry that over, which I think he will, I think he feels pretty comfortable and confident within, you know, the confines of this offense. That could be really fun. But definitely I'm paying attention to Halliburton. And, you know, we talked about Ben Mathsman. It seems like Nemhard kind of stepped into the starting two guard role that we thought was earmarks for Matthew. So I wonder how that dynamic is going to play out. I wonder what Ben worked on this offseason if he could maybe have a breakout year.

Because I think he still got something, right? Like this guy can shoot, especially in his rookie year. He showed that he had a nose for getting to the basket, you know, a nose to like getting five. and stuff like that. So we'll see if he's able to actually, you know, fully realize that potential. But that's another thing to be looking out for is that two-guard position.

Yeah. I'll quibble just slightly with Rob's, just bringing up the half-court offense thing in the playoffs. I do think those sorts of stats are a little wonky just because of the sample size and like... I mean, they're incredibly matchup dependent, for sure. Yeah, right. But, like, the data is what it is.

Like, how much of that was like Siakum taking the reins in certain situations? Oh, for sure. for sure, but that's part of their formula. Totally, yeah. I think with Halliburton, though, I do need to see more. I think we could all agree that, like, yeah, there are times where he just looks scared to even drive the ball because he couldn't get free because the court wasn't spread as much

and he wasn't playing as much in transition. So, yeah, but I think that a two-guard spot is really interesting. I took the extension that Nemhart signed over the offseason to be an indication that he probably isn't long for the team long term, right? Why is that? Well, I think he showed in the playoffs that potentially he can go somewhere else and maybe be a point guard, starting point guard in this league. And I do think he's an uneasy fit with the starting unit, especially if you want to keep T.G. McConnell, who also got an extension over the off season. So, like, how much is he going to be on the ball within this team? And so I wonder if they locked him into a deal in order to spin it forward elsewhere, because maybe that is just more beneficial to a team.

who would inherit him. So I don't know. I assume he starts at the two, though, just based on how things go. But then it really comes down to Mathrin's role. Is he more of a sixth-man energy score? Or is he the future at the two? Because when Buddy Healed left,

I think the assumption was that he would ultimately vault into that. Yeah, he definitely has the overall style of game where he could be a super creator, sixth-man type. He has that in him. But to do that, you have to be really, steady and you have to be able to dial up your energy on command. And he hasn't always had that. I think his game has wobbled a little more than he and the Pacers have wanted to this point, even putting the injuries aside. And so if he can become a little bit more consistent,

I think he could be really, really great in that role. And ultimately, that is going to play into the Nemhard discussion too. Like, it becomes much easier to talk about trading Andrew Nemhardt if Benedict Mathuron is thriving. And you feel really confident with the minutes that you're getting from him. but until that happens, I think Nemhard, short of like a positional trade where they're getting back another really good wing,

is kind of hard to trade for them. Like he was a really important playoff piece. He was another guy who was really important to their half court shot creation, not as a primary, but as like a bailout capacity down to the fact that he's hitting,

you know, game winning threes from God knows where. Like, he was a really critical piece of this overall puzzle. And so what that means in terms of how the guard situation that I agree is something that to watch, something to watch

overall with the Pacers. And bringing up T.J. McConnell's name is incredibly fair. We apologize to all the Sixers fans who just had like a shiver run down their spine, but it's proved himself to be a really important player. He was dope in the playoffs. Another thing we got to keep an eye on,

this quote from Rick Carlisle, I think it was Media Day or maybe something leading up to that. Here's Carlisle, who, for the record, is the president of the coaches association? Is that right? Yes. That's true. it's going to be much more physical this year.

Games are going to look a lot more like Fiba than the old freedom of movement NBA. I believe Carlisle's referring to the points of emphasis that popped up later in last season where things, like there's much more physical play, the rest let things go more often. I think my question is how much does that affect a team like Indy

and like how much is he mentioning this almost to put it in the ears of officials that it will affect a team like Indy more just because on the one hand, they added Seacum at the deadline, almost preempted this by trying to strike more of a physical, defensive-minded balance. On the hand, this is a team that likes to get up and down, Halliburton in particular. So, Waz, you see, like, Halliburton and maybe Indy overall being affected by something

like this more than other teams? I don't, I think this style doesn't allow for that to play too much of a factor. And, like, they're spreading people the hell out. And the whole thing is, like, starting early. Like, you could be as physical as you want, but if I get it in my head that I want to start fast in terms of my offense, getting into shots and all of that. Like, you can't hold and grab your weight into interrupting that. Like, it doesn't work like that. And I think their main issue, you guys are right, was this lack of physicality.

Like, you know, we've been Miles Turner Hive on this podcast forever now. But, like, before they got Siakam, there was just no physical play. Like there was nobody who was put your head down, get to the basket, like initiating contact, that kind of thing. They just don't have it. I think Siakum gives them, you know, that dimension. Obie Toppin, who again, I love, he's not that. No. You know, Miles Turner, not that.

None of these guys were that. And so I don't know. I wouldn't overrated too much. And what I will say about the refs when they do change up a style or a spirit of how. how things are being called, even if they start off at the highest end of that extreme, they always end up reverting way closer to what the expected norm was than the hype would have indicated, right?

So I'm not, I just don't get too worried about that if past NBA rough behavior is to be believed. It's big like New Year's resolutions by February 2nd vibes. Like all the habits have fallen away. The gym membership is already expiring. I guess the difference is they almost preempted this by getting a head start at the end of last season. Well, look, we would love as consumers of the game

if that is the case. I think there needs to be a little bit more physicality, and there are members of the Pacers, to be fair, who I think would benefit from it. Aaron Neesmith is a great example. Big physical player, really aggressive. I think that style of officiating really suits him. Andrew Nemhart, I think, can work in that same capacity.

It can be a really physical, handsy defender when he's given the latitude to be that. I'm almost worried less about their offense in that context because I agree with why I think the pace plays into their benefit, how spread they are plays to their benefit, and the fact that they're not just like a prissy jump shooting team. Like they were a really high level offense because they got to the basket all the time.

And they got to the basket because of the spacing and the tempo that they play with. And now some of that stuff can be countered with physicality. If you're allowed to contest more aggressively at the rim, maybe that brings them down a notch. I think that's a fair concern to have. my bigger concern for the Pacers in a more physical NBA is what is going to happen to their rebounding

because they do not have quality rebounders, period. If you think about who on this team is like an above average rebounder for their position, I would say it's Isaiah Jackson and maybe Pascal Seaccom. And that is literally it. So if there's going to be an all-out war on the glass

and a lot more like dark arts holding and pushing and shoving, this is a team that's going to give up a lot of second chances. And it's not going to be able to get out on the break in the way they want. And you can see the sorts of downstream effects that can come from that from them.

Where are we on Miles Turner in this whole discussion? Seems like we came out on the other side of the previous Miles Turner trade fiasco. And now we find ourselves again in the mix because he is an impending free agent. On the one hand, it seems like he found a comfort zone,

at least offensively with his team. On the other hand, their defense tends to not be good. And he's the guy often tasked with booing that. And so I kind of don't know what to make of them right now. I think I've finally given up

on the idea that Miles Turner can be your sole anchor of a defense. I think the Pacers have two, to be fair. Like, that's part of the appeal of bringing Pascal in the first place.

Yeah. I think that folks like me thought there was a potential that like, you know, because it's tantalizing to have a guy that shoots as much trees as he does as accurately as he can

and be like, shoot, man, he could be our lone big. And, you know, We tried out this great five-hour offense, and we stay afloat on defense with it, and we're ready to go. I think there's spots where he can be nice, rim-protecting, but, like, his lateral quickness ain't what it used to be, so he's not this, like, big, weak-side threat. He's not a switch threat.

He can be overwhelmed by more physical, bigger centers. Like, he's got his limitations. I hate to admit it. But, you know, I still think he's a quality starter for this team. I don't think they could just go out and get like, you know, a Nathaniel Tees-level big man replacement. Be like, oh, we're ready to roll with this. You know, like, I don't... What are you talking about?

I just... I don't know. Like, what kind of extension would even make sense for Miles Turner here? Like, is it borderline starter? over years, I don't know I want to pay that. I don't see him as a, you know, a locked in starter for the next four years

at center. I think it's got to be like, look, if he's willing to take like $16 million, you know, four years, I'd do that. I could see him sticking in the league for another four years. I just don't know that he is a bona fide,

high-level starting center, you know, for the rest of his career. Yeah, I think he's a good starter. And the tilt of his careers, interesting because as you said Justin like the defensive part of his game not falling away but almost becoming deprioritized we don't see a lot of bigs who have that sort of trajectory like he's grown offensively and he's more confident and more flexible offensively than he's ever been and his ability to space is important to them I agree that he can't anchor a defense on his own

I mean he's he's in this weird place too with the way that they play defensively where the pacer's aggressively want to run you off the three point line like they want to win the three point margin battle in terms of attempts. He is not a good enough rim protector at this stage to prop up a defense by himself that is playing that way, to be jazz Rudy Gobert. Like that's not what he is at this point in his career. And so, yeah, they're not going to be an amazing defensive team. But if they can get to a little closer to average, I think they're going to be really

formidable. And we've already seen that even just getting like Aaron Neesmith being a bigger part of the team, getting Pascal Seaccom in the door, like Benedict Mathriman, at his best can be a good perimeter defender. And some of these young guys kind of coming along and growing overall, maybe there's enough there to make Miles Turner's job a smidge easier. But this is not going to be an elite defense. Like, we all have to be honest about that.

Yeah, I think it would make sense to maybe shop them a little bit to a team like the Pelicans' desperate need of a center with Nathaniel Tees out there. But I don't know who they would turn to in his stead. Like Isaiah Jackson, is he ready for that? I don't know. James Wiseman all of a sudden is popping up on this roster. Shout to him, still banking some money and people still giving him a shot. I mean, there's a world in which they play more small ball or maybe see Ackham or maybe just like pack the front court with maybe Jaris Walker finally pops and all of a sudden you could play him at a four, but I don't think

it's a long-term solution. But so, yeah, I agree. He's kind of in that weird middle ground, but he serves for what he is and we'll kind of just see long-term what they do with them. Anything else on this team? it'd be really cool if there was a role for Jarris Walker to be a part of the regular season rotation. Rick Carlisle. He did so well at Summer League.

When he pops, he fucking pops. And it's clear that there's something in his game worth cultivating. And often it's things that are surprising. Like the shock creation from the perimeter can be weirdly exciting at times. I just would love to see him find some kind of role. Doesn't have to be a big one?

You know, it can be what Ben Shepard was to last year's team. You know, come in, spot minutes, very different game and profile, admittedly, like not a hold it down, play the right way, solid fundamentals type, but they could use

a similar dosage of more of a wild guard element. And I think Jaris Walker is the kind of prospect who could be that for them. Just one of the most wild recent lottery picks where it's just like he hasn't even played, you know? Here we are in year two and it almost feels like he has just as much competition, if not more

for those minutes, because they bring back Obie Topin on a four-year extension. And so it's a lot of guys, perhaps not an abundance of guys, but he does need to wade through a couple guys in order to get into the rotation, as you mentioned. We're nearing abundance, maybe not preponderance of guys. But there's a significant number of guys here. Yeah, and they went out of their way

to retain a lot of those guys in the off-season. Siakken got obviously re-signed, Topin got an extension, NAMHR got an extension, McConnell got an extension, Halliburton's deal, I believe, kicks in, his max deal kicks in this year. So the money was spread around.

have to assume that was more about getting people locked in than necessarily saying this is our team. Right. But, you know, it would be nice if a recent lottery pick did indeed play some minutes here. Let's go to number 13, the Cleveland Cavaliers, another team that locked in pretty much every goddamn player on its roster. We talked about whether or not they would trade Garland, whether or not they would trade Mitchell, whether or not they trade Allen or maybe not Mowgli, but maybe not Mowgli. They rolled them all back and then just got a new coach. I find myself, though, more optimistic than I thought I would be in the situation five to six months ago. I thought that that would be a death knell if they just brought everybody back.

Maybe it's just a belief that Kenny Atkinson can figure things out. Or maybe it's just like on paper, you know, like it's not like they need to do so much, Rob, to make this work. It's just like you turn a couple knobs and all of a sudden, like, Mowbly and Allen works. And it's just like, oh, this could be a pretty good team. Is that me just being overly optimistic? Where do you find yourself on the Cavs? I don't think it's overly optimistic because the calves are always good.

They're always like quite a high-level team. We just have these little nitpicks and those little nitpicks, I think, ultimately are the things that stop them from being a great team, right? Previously, it was like what they were doing on the wings. There's this sort of looming bigger question about how you play their best players together and in what combinations.

And I will say this, even though this is probably the single biggest bet on roster continuity in the entire league. It is the same team, fundamentally, the same team. as you said, invested even more heavily than it was before. But all of their core guys, for the most part, I would say Darius Garland's a little different, but you can play them at a variety of positions.

You can play them in interesting combinations. Like Mowgli's 4-5 flexibility and Mitchell's 1-2 flexibility, I think gives you a lot of options and gives you a lot of stuff you can work with. And that's where I do look at the Kenny Atkinson hire. Atkinson, especially as a guy who has a good eye, particularly for synergy and who should be playing when, that is the kind of coaching change that could make a difference.

Is it going to elevate the calves to the level of the elite teams in the East? I'm a little skeptical of that, but they were already quite good and they can be even better. And so why wouldn't we be at least a little bullish on their prospects? Well, because their four guys are uncomplimentary of each other. That's the problem. Like as a foursome, you're saying. Yeah. As a foursome, they don't amplify each other in any way, shape, or form.

Right? Like when Garland is playing out there with Donovan Mitchell, they're not helping each other be better at what they do, right? And obviously, some of these bars are pretty high bars. But I think of like, you know, Steph and Clay. It's like, yeah, when those two guys are out there, all of Clay's movement stuff, all the steps movement stuff, steps on ball. Everything is made better by having the other guy with them. Clay being, especially at its peak, being like this excellent on-ball defender where Steph was just merely good

and Clay having size. And like all of these things conspired with each other to make the two players the best versions of themselves when they were on the court together. Like, I guess Garland should learn how to play more like Belique Monk. You know, like, I guess, right? But like, that's not serving his actual talent. Like, if Mitchell's going to insist upon having a lion's share of the usage, no matter who he's on the court with, it's not actually serving Garland.

And then, of course, with the Mobley and Jared Allen thing, we saw Mobley come alive in the playoffs, if we could even use that as like he came alive. But, like, he played the best and I think the most idealized version of himself when Allen was gone. So that's why I think we're like, oh, why should we be crazy optimistic about this group when their guys don't help each other be better? I don't know how that changes. Kenny Hackinson is going to be really good at maximizing lineup versatility

in terms of slotting those guys in different spots throughout the rotation. But when it comes down to it in crunch time, those four guys have to play. and at a certain point Garlish is going to be off doing nothing not being used and I think that sucks.

I think that's what makes them a tougher sell Justin because it's like they're not going to be the crunch time juggernaut. They're not going to be a beautiful half-court team but what they can do is give you 48 really good point guard minutes and 48 really good center minutes and some of that is going to come from

taking one of their better players off the floor. So I think the, the Mowgli and Alan fit can be solved to a certain extent by rotation. Right? Like, I do think you want to steal a lot of time for Mowgli this season by being the only five on the court

and playing more space. He looked incredibly comfortable in that role, especially in the second round against the Boston Celtics. I think for him, he has to shoot regardless of what's going to happen. And so for me,

like, he's going to be on that pathway anyway. So why not give us a chance at least a half a season with Alan and Mowbly and seeing if some progress in that area does met things out, right? The Garland and Mitchell one is a little bit more complicated in large part because you did just commit so much to Mitchell. And so by doing so it's only a three-year deal, which is like a little curious. It's a two plus one. So you don't really have a long, long track record pathway with him. but by saying that he is our guy, it de-emphasizes Garland in the grand scheme of things,

and I wonder how much that just changes their overall approach. I don't think it was a coincidence that Mitchell looked his most comfortable last season in which it was just him and Alan and a bunch of shooters. And so the question that we have down here is our essential question, which is like the core four death pool, who goes first, Alan, Garland, Mitchell Mobley. I would say Garland, just by the sheer fact that it seemed like Mitchell is

the most important part of the organization. And for him, Garland is the one that doesn't make a clear fit to what he wants to do. Interesting. I don't think I would have pegged Garland just because he's coming off such a weird year. He's clearly such a talented player. And he had the weird, it was a jaw injury, right?

Like it was just kind of, had a very strange season overall and underperformance and kind of out-of-character performance in some ways. And so if you were to trade him in relatively short order, you would be doing so at relatively low value, I think, for what ultimately Darius Garland did,

which is quite a good point guard. To me, it feels like because we have now seen the very good Evan Mobley Center minutes that Jared Allen is probably the lever that eventually gets pulled here, like a good player on a reasonable deal, who honestly through no fault of his own, is probably the key to kind of unlocking the calves

when he does get traded. Like getting them smaller, getting them spacier. And this, look, I understand, as I say this, that I am becoming a parody of myself. But let me tell you for a minute how important Dean Wade was to this team. Like, having him as a stretch four option was legitimately important. And the fact that he did not finish the season because of a knee injury was a big deal. Like, those were some of the Cleveland's best small ball looks. And they're going to need better players, frankly, in the grand scheme of things, in the long run,

and Dean Wayne and George Nying. But they're representative of a kind of process. And I think representative of the fact that whether it's Allen out there as the sole big or as we saw in the playoffs, Mobley now feeling a little more capable of handling that as the sole big, that Alan is probably eventually the player

who gets moved. I don't know how soon that would come, but it feels like we're moving in that direction. Yeah, I think it's got to be Allen because, you know, basically once he went down, the team kind of took off with the offense.

And so, you know, I get it. a great locker room guy, he's on a great deal. Like, he's a great, he's a good player. He's made all-star team. Like, he's a good player. But it just feels like, Mobley being alone big on their best lineups is what the future is going to dictate to these guys.

And he just becomes, Alan becomes a luxury at that point. And you want to show up these different places if you can. And so that's what they'll do. I think it's a good way to. think about the calves though as a team that has like because their guard their guards and bigs don't necessarily complement each other that much they have these luxuries and they also have needs and so at some point you have to trade one for the other yeah i just don't know how viable it is going small with mobily at the five because of the reason you brought up i think you need

big shooting wings which are also really tough to find and so if you don't trade allen for those players, which isn't a real one-to-one proposition because they probably have, the wings probably have more value on the trade market, it automatically becomes difficult. Like, for instance, like, you're not trading Allen for Trey Murphy. You know what you mean? That just, that would be ridiculous just because Murphy, like, is so much more valuable, three-point and all the stuff. And so that's why I think Garland might be the guy for the political reasons, but also because, like, maybe it would carve out the best version of this team. But as we said, we're, we're going to roll along with this team, at least for half a season,

I would assume, just to see what they have. Another guy we didn't mention, Max Drus, still handsome. You would say that. You would. Out here, just luring bachelorettes to Cleveland, we love to see it. He's doing a lot for our cause,

our cause. I would love to get us out to Cleveland just to put Justin out on the street for long enough that he gets recognized as Max Struz. I think we could set it over under See, I think it might be sooner than that I think we put you in a choice position around the arena in some cavs sweats with a duffel bag

like you're coming out of practice I think we I think we can lull someone into thinking that you are Max Drews Okay, should we do like a viral video Like do we have a TikTok? Does group chat have a TikTok? We do now. Let's start it up All right, we'll do that, we'll do some dances

Anything else? Any other guys to take note of here? For me, just on a personal note, ESPN on their joint has Omar Cook as being on their roster, which I was like, wait, does Omar Cook have a son? But no, he's an assistant on the squad, you know, St. John's legend, Queens, Queen's legend, Christa King guy. Shouts to him for getting on as an assistant with the Cleveland Cavalries. He's had a long career overseas. But now, you know, NBA assistant. Good for him.

Amani Bates had the now like ceremonial. He gained a couple pounds over the offseason report the other day. And I have to say the photo was very much of that one where it's like Alex Jones and then Alex Jones was like a little bit more tan. Like he looked almost exactly the same.

But people were saying he put a lot of muscle. So there's that one. Also shout out. Let's pour one out for the the Cavs Nepo Babies. Isaiah Mobley and Pete Nance. No longer of this team. It was a great run. you know, they've moved on to other things.

That's sad. Isaac Acora also got an extension. Or no, he got re-signed as a restricted free agent, so. That took weirdly a long time to do. Isaac Acore is pretty good. Yeah, but not like actually pretty good. I think he's actually pretty good, but we can save that for another time. I don't want to put him in the Pat Williams zone.

Oh, that's rude. He's in the Pat Williams zone, especially when you think about his draft pedigree. Like, that has not worked out the way that we wanted it to. Oh, as a high-level prospect, sure. But as we adjust to the reality of our current moment, he's a good NBA player, if not the NBA player, that he hoped to be. Yes. All right.

Number 12 on the list, the Los Angeles Lakers, yet another team that's banking on continuity. I'm surprised that the Lakers ended up so high on this list. I'm typically someone who believes in the AED. LeBron combination, especially coming off to the Olympics, and they were two of the five guys on the court there. But I'm surprised you guys ended up in the same place, including Waz.

You had them as high as 10th this year. So you're just believing in the James gang out here. I think obviously what they showed in the summer where, like, you know, that was like the talk amongst Laker fans is like, how can these guys be so

obviously good, so obviously work together as a tandem and we can't be, you know, much better than we've shown. I think there's something to the better juju where like these guys and, you know, as much as Justin hates JJ Reddick, but like these guys show up to camp and show up the media day. And the first thing they're doing is basically praising JJ for being more organized and consistent in messaging and them understanding what is asked and needed from them.

and they're having defined roles. I think that stuff matters in terms of especially clawing together better regular season rules. And just so people understand how I tended to do my rankings, it was like, look, if you could give me, if the playoffs started tomorrow and you can give me even odds on the Lakers and the Cavaliers to win the championship, I'm picking the Lakers. right. Same for all the teams that's behind him. Like, that's how I did my power ranking in terms of who I think has the chance to win an NBA championship this year. And I think in a playoff series, in a playoff setting, LeBron AD, competent coaching, you know, I'm not to say, I don't think Darwin Ham was bad. I'm not one of those Darwin Ham haters.

But I think, like, these guys playing closer to their max potential in a playoff setting, them a pretty dangerous team. I don't think they're going to the championship, guys. Let's just get that out the way. We also do know how you do your power rankings because you told us and it was take last year's rankings and move like three teams around. So that's also,

everything you're saying is true, but that is also true. Rob, you did yours based on vibes, right? Straight vibes. And that's why I want to hear from you on your JJ Reddick take, your temperature check on the JJ Reddick era with the Lakers. Because, yeah, as was alluded to, the players I think were pretty loud in their praise of JJ Reddick

and in doing so in some of the indictments of the Darwin Ham tenure. But I feel it seems like you feel a little differently about how JJ is going so far. Oh, so was LeBron in LeBron's friends that populate the roster very excited to see J.J. Reddick as the head coach? I am shocked. I'm just reporting the facts on the ground, all right? You know, we're just relaying the information.

Yeah, I'm already done with the J.J. Reddick tenure. Literally hasn't started yet. I don't want to do this. I don't know why we're here, but I just find him intolerable, I would say. Intolerable. It's just somehow the dude comes from media, but doesn't know how to conduct a normal interview.

I don't know if anybody has seen the clip out there where a reporter in a typical scrum setting asks a totally normal question about Rui Hachamara, which is like, hey, what's Ruiz next step? Or like, how does he get to the next level? And JJ's like, what next level? That's just a narrative. It's like as if he was asking him,

can LeBron win the big one in the clutch? Like, this is the Miami Heat 10 years ago. This is really fucking Hachamura. It's the most banal, nothing question. And you're just trying to shoot it down like the guy was calculated or was trying to get you. Like, what the fuck are we doing here?

I just, I can't do it. I cannot do it. It's just, it just, like, really just burns me to my core. Clearly. I think on the, on the media side, JJ is obviously just hyper-sensitive about managing the story of what's happening with the Lakers. And let's just face it. Can we say this? When you're the coach of the Lakers, you have to do that.

You have to. You have to do that. Because, you know, the thing is the Lakers don't have a normal. fan base. Their fan base is like super locked in and cares about every single utterance, every single

morsel of news that comes out in a way. And there's a way for this to snowball. Right? And I think JJ's trying to cut that kind of stuff off at the head at the same time. Like, you know, like Justin was saying, like you can just say in some

vague way, what you want Rui to do this this year. Play great defense. You know what I mean? Find his offense a little bit. Like make the extra pass that he wasn't doing last year. There's simple solutions here that would actually lead to informing the audience

rather than just like trying to vomit a bunch of jargony terms that nobody understands to begin with. Honestly, this is one of my issues with him as a media member is just like he wanted to make things so overly complex to impress himself almost rather than actually educating the audience. Like there's a middle ground here where we can talk about complex things, but on a level that people can understand, that's actual education rather than just like trying to show how much you know about

ghost screens and like red coverages on pick and roll defense. It's like, give me a fucking break with this stuff. I love on-bud's been Justin Barrier. Well, first way, you're not done. Let me let me tell you something, Rob. I hope I never leave the ringer, boy. Because Justin will take the hatchet to my ass with the quickness. Oh, my God.

It's called job security, baby. No, I hear you. I think there's something to just overdoing these kinds of things. It's just overthinking it. Like, I don't think as a coach you need to overthink this media messaging crap. Like, I really do think it's just about getting through to their players and getting them to understand what their role is and having them go out and actually executing their job function to the highest level.

Like, that's all we need. And again, he seems to have. have a level of buy-in right now that Darvinham so clearly did not. And so that's why he definitely had to go, even if I think he did a pretty good job considering the circumstances his two

years in L.A. Yeah. I think it's hard to be out, out, out on the JJ Reddick era because one, it literally hasn't started. Two, here's the thing, like, because he has never been a coach before, every part of this is new. I assume he will get better at some

of the messaging and narrative stuff as he goes. and more comfortable in dealing with some of those situations as he goes. More media training, perhaps? I just think there's a grace allowed for any coach stepping into a new circumstance. Like, let's get to the season. Let's give him a chance to get his feet under him. Because I can't say with any confidence that he's going to make the Lakers demonstrably better. I don't think we have any reason or any basis to know who he's going to be as a coach yet.

And I'm looking forward to finding out who he can be as a coach. What we do know was, and I think where I disagree a little, with you on the Darvin Ham part of this is there's some low-hanging fruit that the Lakers really had to resolve. And it took them way too long to figure out, for example, that they had one of the best starting lineups in the league and they just weren't playing it. So

things like that will help. And it looks like the Lakers are coming out of the gate playing their best players. It's a great strategy. I recommend it. I think there's some stuff like that that J.J. can do that will make the Lakers a better team from the jump and will make his job and his work

a little easier, honestly, than Darwin-Han his job ultimately ended up being because of the decisions that he himself was making. Yeah, and let me be clear. I don't know how good of a job Reddick will ultimately do. This is more of me, just him as a media figure or just like a personality. A bit of media criticism. Yeah, sure. But I do think the irony is like his ability to coach up and perhaps unlock some of these guys like Rui Hachemur, find a new level, is if anything, probably his biggest obstacle. That's why we have it is our essential question.

Whether or not Reddick can develop, unlock, better utilize some of the others because I was looking at the roster the other day, this is a lot of young guys. Like, you think it's just Brony and Connect. It's most of the roster. I count nine guys on the roster right now as of today who are 26 years old and under Reeves, Hashemura, even Vanderbilt, Reddish, Huss Chafino, Christi, Connect, Hayes, Brony James. Don't mention Jackson, these, please. He's not a player.

He's there for now. He's probably going to play, like it or not. He's a part of that team. They're basically saying the key to this team, if this isn't just a prelude to a star trade down the road, is we're going to find young guys and round out the roster. We're going to build depth. We're going to have enough around the LeBron AED situation

and we'll just overwhelm teams with the amount of depth and quality players that we have. And so, like, what Hashimura does this season is actually, I think, pretty important to the bottom line. At the same time, though, when you're 25, 26 in the NBA, that's the dirty little secret. You kind of are who you are, fam. Like, outside of, like, the superstar guys who, like, you know, like, they get smarter about the game as their athleticism sort of wanes or whatever. And, you know, whatever, they can sort of take their smarts to another level, like, Rui and really. and Vanderbilt, those dudes, like, feels like they're locked into who they're going to be.

Maybe. Maybe I'm wrong about that. And they have levels to their game that have yet to be seen. But I feel like they are who they are. But I think those guys are pretty damn good players. And if they attack their roles in a more consistent fashion than they did last year because they feel like their minutes and their, what's being asked to them isn't getting yanked. the round or whatever, you know, that'll be a boom to the Lakers, man. I think ultimately it's going to come down to if LeBron and AD play a lot of games next

year, this year, they're going to be pretty damn good. And in the playoffs, man, matchup dependent, of course, they better pray they don't see Denver. You know, they got to like their chances because they have Bron and AD and competent role players behind it. Let's raise the stakes of this a little bit, though, because I agree with you. was like LeBron and AD on the court formidable team almost regardless of who is around them.

Those two combined for 147 games last regular season. I think that is an incredible achievement given their respective histories. Especially AD. I don't know that I would count on that happening again and predictably without LeBron in particular, the Lakers just could

not score on anybody. I think this gets at the larger question we're having here, Justin, larger conversation we're having about can you elevate any of these other guys on the periphery of this team. And I would say that even includes Austin Reeves to a degree of like, can he be elevated into a different kind of score, unlocked into a different level of score because they're going to need that.

Ultimately, I think the lack of depth is a huge issue on this team. I look at that starting five and I feel really good about that group. Other than those five players, and that's a five that includes Ruri Hachamura, a guy who is already a little bit touch and go, who is the next player you can trust on the Los Angeles Lakers roster because they do have a lot of young guys, as you mentioned, who could be rolls of the dice that come up, great.

I would say the next most reliable sub is probably Jared Vanderbilt, and that is a guy who cannot play in the playoffs, and isn't available because he had surgeries on both feet in the off-season. So if not Jared Vanderbilt, where are we looking? You only have two of those, by the way, for the listeners at home. I guess it would be Vincent. I guess I'm healthy Vincent, for instance. I'm still a believer, man.

I'm still a believer. I know, like, the injuries, like, it has horrible injuries since coming to the Lakers. But I still think he's a gamer. And what he does, like, in terms of on the ball defense is still amazing. He's just got to find a shot. And when you're playing with LeBron and AD, it's going to be pretty good shots that you end up getting because of their gravity and how teams feel like the paint is so threatened by their presence on the floor together. He's going to get some decent shots.

I think his shot just got to be not to the heights that it was and the best times in Miami. But damn, man, like get me to 35, 36% from three. You know what I mean? Close to the 40 in the corners. Like, why can't this happen for Gabe Vincent? I want it to happen. I want to believe in Gabe Vincent. I also want to believe in Max Christie, a guy who I think we're all kind of waiting.

I was waiting for this. We're waiting for him to have his moment. And honestly. I'm like repealed on Max Christy. I am. I'm in this boat, too. And he does seem like the kind of. the kind of player by type

that someone like JJ Reddit could help. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think you bring up a good point before where it's like how much might we be marveling at all of the big names on paper, like connect as someone who is older as a rookie, but like, is he really going to step in and be an immediate contributor? His shot looks pretty

gorgeous, I'll say, and he is a big player. So maybe he can give them quality minutes, but like, just the fact that he played a lot in college doesn't mean that he's more NBA ready. If anything, like the fact that he transferred around a bit means he might not have as much, many reps against high quality competition as he would like of a player of that age. I'll be honest, Hitch Cofino, like, I see it. He's like a ball handler.

He's like pretty smooth. What does that ultimately get him if he can't shoot or play off of LeBron and whatnot? I don't know, but he's interesting. I think the big question is like, how much are we twisting ourselves in a knot here to believe that these guys are something when maybe the best pathway for the Lakers is just to be the Lakers and trade some of them for a star. Like we talked about Trey Young on previous podcast. We just talked about Darius Garland. Who knows if they could really acquire him.

They have enough powder in order to get him. But like, I kind of don't hate the young thing, for instance. No. Just for the sheer fact that like you only have so many LeBron years. Why not just make the list of them on the butt. I would be very interested in watching that dynamic on the court. I'm not talking about like personal guys or whatever. But like I think that would work.

I really do think that's a combination that could work. His defense is always going to be a major issue and a major downside to anything he's doing for your team. But I would love to see that shoot. I might even, I might even Dane to reach out to Lakers PR to watch. Oh, there you go. Maybe you get a seat. Rob, what do you think about that?

Opportunity. I mean, if that kind of trade presents itself, I would like it. Especially, like, the one thing we haven't really talked about is the DeAngelo Russell element here, who, look, Dilo's like going to have his moments. He's also going to have stretches where he absolutely does not have it. And even when he is cooking, it's not the kind of cooking that helps you solve the fundamental problems on the team. And that's the huge difference between someone like him and Darius Garland or him and Trey. Like, those are guys who would change the way the Lakers are made up in a meaningful way.

Dilo is a guy who's filling a spot and sometimes does it well. And if they can get out of that into something that's more stable, I think that would be great for everybody involved. And it's crazy to talk about Trey Young as a more stable alternative, but that's what he is. It's a very talented player who can do good. And I think we would love to see him work alongside someone like LeBron, as you said, was. Also, Dilo is an underrated quote.

If you guys will remember last year, he said that he wanted to play more like Derek White, which I just thought was just, just, m's, kiss troll. Same player. And this year, he's just like, what? Trade me? Like, what are you talking about? I'm a lake of a life.

Like, this is great. Do you know how old DeAngelo Russell is? I'm looking at it right now. He's 28, which is just nuts. That is nuts. He said 35. I would have been like, yeah, sure. He's been in the league for 90 years.

Yeah, he's lived like five lives in the league already. So many NBA lives, dude. But he isn't expiring, as we alluded to. So maybe he's more attractive for that. reason, I agree. I want to like him so much. And he has those stretches where he just looks absolutely awesome. He's like one of the Lakers' best players. He's hitting every goddamn pull-up that he eyes. And it's just like, ah, Dilo, finally run it in. And then a couple weeks later, the playoffs start. And it's like, where'd you go, my friend? Here's, here's one thing he can do. And one

thing that I will say came out of training camp from JJ Redick specifically that my ears perked up and I was like, okay, now, now we're cooking. And that was coverage on Bickneros? No, Redd Redick went out of his way to outline the fact that one of the Lakers' keys to their improvement and to being the kind of team that they want to be is getting AD the ball more consistently, and this was a huge problem for them last year. And if it's a team priority to get AD the ball in transition, in broken half-court situations, especially when LeBron is not on the floor, that's a huge win for the Lakers. If they can just get themselves in the mind space of consistently doing it,

and there is no single player on the team for whom that is more important than DeAngel. Russell. He needs to be a facilitator to Biggs, in addition to all the things he fancies himself as being. All right. Let's go to the last team on our list. Number 11, the Orlando Magic, who bringing Contagius Caldwell Pope,

I think everyone's pretty excited about what they could be. It seemed like they passed the crucible last year, almost making it to the second round. They had a little bit more shooting. And so, I think we're all relatively high in them. I just don't know how high we should go at this point. My question on the docket, Rob, is whether or not they could be a top half offense as constructor if they need more.

But honestly, I wonder if that's almost selling them low, like, because if they just have a little bit more shooting from Pope, Franz plays a little bit better, they could probably get there. And so I find myself wondering, like, what's the actual ceiling for this team? Like, is top 10 offense in play with the current personnel? I don't know. Let's get to league average first. Okay.

You know? Yeah, let's make it incremental. They were already, to be honest, like a fair bit below it in the regular season. And a lot of that is spacing. You know, they have good creators. They don't necessarily have the room to work with. And as a result, I think the turnovers were a pretty consistent problem for them. And trying to get the turnovers down is going to be a big thing in terms of elevating

what that offense can ultimately be. So, yeah, having a two who actually draws attention has to be guarded is a movement player who isn't predictable. That's going to be a meaningful thing for them. but yeah, Franz is going to have to have a better three-point shooting season for one. I think he and Palo's like overall organic development is going to be pretty critical

to that formula. But there's a lot here that you could buy into getting better. And the fact that those guys and Jalen Suggs, you know, and Cole Anthony and the fact that Anthony Black has like kind of barely been part of this team so far, any one of those guys could kind of pop a little bit and could get a little bit better in a way that

overall makes the rotation feel a little bit more stout. And I think most importantly, the offensively makes them feel more solvent? Top 10, it might be a little ambitious for this year as they're presently constructed, but definitely above leave average, like 15, 14, I think is definitely doable, particularly in the regular season because, one, they've already showed themselves to be a high effort team. Like, they're going to get out and run.

What I think they should be doing is they're big, they're athletic, they're ranging, they should be crashing the boards more, which is another way that you get your efficiency up, and of course, getting to the free throw line. To me, those are the keys to getting this to be a more efficient offense. That's before we talk about the marginal improvement of outside shooting that stuff like Caldwell Pope and different minutes like that. And, you know, individuals being better three-point shooters from last year and stuff. But I think crashing the boards, getting out in transition, quick, easy buckets, and getting to the free throw line is how they just nibble at the edges of the problems that they had efficiency-wise last year.

And they're already a good free throw drawing team. Like, Palo in particular, gets to the line a lot. Franz is a downhill player who wants to create contact. Those two guys are already very good at it. They're good relative to the rest of the league at creating free-through opportunities. But they can be even better. I think that's what makes the magic so interesting and so scary is, like, they're already a masher of a defense that wins games, like wins a ton of games and can

push a team like Cleveland to seven. What are they going to be when they start taking next steps? Because there's a lot of potential here to take next steps. Yeah, I just look at the one game they had in the first round against Cleveland in which Franz played well offensively. And you saw everything just already kind of click into place. Paulo in particular, who, as we talked about a bunch in the past, like maybe should have the ball a lot, but not as much as he's had

because the turnovers do become an issue of a player of his size. Everything all of a sudden becomes so much easier for him in particular, but just the offense overall when Franz is going. And, like, he had a really bad year shooting the ball. I think he was, like, 28% from three last year, which was dreadful. He was around league average. Yeah. Two years prior, the free throws look good.

And so I would assume he nets out somewhere around there. But when you add Pope in the mix as well, and also afforded you more opportunities to play with the center minutes a little bit more. And so, like, I see as constructed a pathway to being a good offense. As I'm looking at the leaderboard last year, like, 10th was the Suns. So 10th might be. a little bit much. 11th was the Pelicans.

So there's a lot of good offenses. But couldn't they be 15, 14, 13, 12? I could see it just by adding Pope in there. And the Pelicans are honestly an interesting model because that's a team that also relies on a lot of wing creation. And they still found their way to being a pretty solid offense overall, significantly better than the magic by the numbers. And so the difference is they have guys like Trey Murphy

and they have guys like C.J. McCollum. They have more shooting in their arsenal, in their quiver to create space for these guys. And that's where I'm a little less worried about the turnovers with someone like Paolo because I know he can be more efficient. And I think the turnovers will come down with more room to operate.

I think KCP will help with that. I think the continued growth of the roster will help with that. Ultimately, we'll have to see in time if the magic have to sell off some part of their vision to become the sort of transcendent team or next level contender

that they probably ultimately want to be. KCP is great because he fits the way they play defensively and he doesn't compromise their size. He just brings shooting. But I think one of the concerns down the line is how do they need to transform if they need to transform?

And in the meantime, open up space for guys like Paolo to cook, he can definitely get a little closer to the basket for his shot profile overall. Like he's so big, he's so physical, he's so imposing. I know he can settle a little bit less, and I think he will do that

when he has a little bit more space. Yeah, Anthony Simons has been the pipe dream of this podcast for a couple months now. I get it. I think he would be a perfect fit there, but I do think it begs the question would they roll out a back court of Simons and Suggs, especially in

crunch time because it kind of runs counter to everything that they believe in, which is like we want to be as big as long as physical as possible. Like, it just doesn't seem like their modus operandi as much as I personally as a fan would like it. I think they would be great and unlock Paolo even more if he was

being the initiator, but also the screener in picking rolls and just doing that over and over again. It would be really interesting, but I have to imagine, though, go down this path, see what they have. I'm curious what we think will happen at center. Does the fact that they have Pope in the mix

now mean that they could elevate Isaac to the first unit because they kind of broke the glass late in the regular season, assuming that was going to be like the key to get them over the hump? Unfortunately, it didn't look all that seamless, especially in the postseason because they needed more offensive before. They needed Wendell Carter

Jr. And so what do you think, Rob, they'll do? Is it Carter going to be the starter and then we'll see? Or do you think they go to Isaac first and foremost. Yeah, I think Carter's still the starter. And with him on the floor, they were an elite defensive team. So they're playing well within their strengths. They're being the kind of team they want to be.

And Isaac is sort of the off-speed pitch, change of pace guy. And there was some talk, you know, on the muscle watch front, Isaac is another one of these guys who's supposedly bulked up a little bit. Let me tell you, you're not bulking up to play the three. Like, that is his ultimate fate. And especially given his offensive limitations, the more you can get Isaac in as a five, I think the more it disguises

the fact that no one is going to guard him from the perimeter, basically regardless of how many shots he actually makes. Yeah. I can see the magic being the team in December where it's like, oh, magic are second in the east right now? Like, what the hell is going on? They are built to mash in the regular

season to stack wins. Much like the Pacers, I can see them being a very good regular season team. We'll see in the playoffs where they'll meet a lot of the Titans of the East as we'll get to in future episodes. But I think they're in line for a very good season. They have an incredibly high floor at this point.

As long as no one gets hurt, Paolo in particular, I think this is a really good team. Yeah. Anything else we want to discuss before we get out of here? Markle Fultz, still not signed, perhaps? Yeah, that is kind of funny, but I get the trepidation about his physical state. Like, it's

a real thing. Stobby, if you've heard this before, but the magic draft of the guy who's like 6'8 and can do some of everything. And Tristan De Silva can actually shoot, too. So I I would love to see Tristan de Silva and or Jet Howard crack the rotation.

Get some minutes, yeah. Get some minutes, give this team some spacing, allow them to play as big as they want to be, at least in terms of length, if not as, you know, Tristan to Silva and Jet Howard are not physically imposing players per se, but they can play within the formula and provide shooting.

And if they can do that, I think there's a future for them with this team as long as they can hit consistently. Yeah, there's just a lot of recent high-draft picks just kicking around in Osceola, I imagine for part of the season, like, what is Anthony Black's role? What is Caleb Houston's role after bringing back Gary Harris? Like, they're just like, they have a lot of the same type, you know, where it's like, oh, Caleb Houston's down, just give me Jet Howard and he'll be a shooter that ultimately underperforms. It's just like,

it's funny how they do have like waves of guys, almost like a hockey team. All right, on that cool anecdote, we'll cut it there. We'll be back on Thursday. Thank you to Eduardo O KFO for filling in. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll see you next time. Must be 21 plus and 18 plus in D.C. In present in select states,

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