The Ringer NBA Show - Preseason Power Rankings Part 1 | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Preseason Power Rankings Part 1 | Group ChatJustin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are back with the annual preseason power rankings! As usual, the guys start with the lowest ranked teams: 26-30.(00:00) Intro(7:23) Kings(28:50) Bucks(44:24) Nets(59:59) Clippers(1:15:55) BullsHosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle MannProducers: Victoria Valencia, Isaiah Blakely, Liz Jerry, and Ben CruzStudio Production: Kevin Cureghian, Chris Thomas, Chris Wohlers, and Jonathan RatliffProduction Supervision: Jack WilsonThe Club for every holiday club. Sam’s Club. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and sitting before me. We got Rob Mahoney. We got Jay Kyle Mann. We have assembled here in lovely Los Angeles, where it is still as hot as balls, despite the fact that we are in the beginning of October. Why? I don't know.

But we do this because the preseason power rankings are here. It's what everyone's been waiting for. They just have been checking in like, when are they going to happen? It starts today, baby. See, you say you don't know why, but we know why. The season demands it. The content demands it. This is our time.

And so why would we be doing anything but congregating here in this lovely studio, seeing your distinguished faces before each other? Like, this is my favorite time of year, frankly. Justin's distinguished wave that I was asking him about in the front of his hair that is so distinguished and so effortless. Yeah, I mean, lately, you're reacting like I shouldn't have said that, Rob? That's sort of a... This is my industry secret?

Well, it's not even an industry secret, because it's not even an industry secret, Because if you tried to replicate it, you would fail. Like, this is not a thing you can just, like, artificially make. That's right. I mean, it's been hard to sleep lately, I'll have to say, because if the pounding on my front door, my family has been really disrupted because people want these goddamn rankings. And it's been tough. I got to die sky. I got to confide that in you guys before we get started.

And it's cathartic to finally just, it's a release, you know, honestly. Well, there's a lot going on here because we're going to do six of these episodes. And I think they're going to be longer than ever before. and they were already quite long. We're going to do five teams per episode. We're going to start from the bottom, work our way all to the tippy top there. We'll do the first five today. Wednesday are going to be the next five,

and I believe Friday is going to be the next five. We also have some business to attend to because we are doing another live show. Look at that. They're putting us in front of actual people with no edits or stopdowns. I mean, speaking of the clambering, you know, the uproar has been significant so much that the ringer events. team is like, we got to put these guys back on a stage. Like, it's just, there's too much demand, frankly.

Yeah. Who better to heal this nation than group chat? And we're going to start, you know, in Minneapolis. You know, I don't know, I don't know the venue yet. Is it Paisley Park on like an outdoor stage? I'll tell you right here. The live show is Tuesday, October 27th at the varsity theater in Minneapolis. Tickets are on sale now.

And you could find all the details at the ringer.com slash events. We didn't talk about this, but I feel like we should really entice the people. here, not just to come to the show, but to come from great distances. Like, we got to have some kind of reward, some kind of prize for like, if you're coming from states away. Bring stubs. I want to see proof. I need to see a plane ticket.

But if you're coming from Iowa, if you're coming from, you're going to pay for that? You know, I will personally expend some kind of prize to whoever travels the farthest distance to come to the group chat live show in Minneapolis on October 27th. Geographically, a little bit of a warp there. I was looking at the distance between Kentucky. I can't figure out quite where it is. You know, it's one of those places where it's a very short direct flight from me, but then I have this thing where as an east coaster, heavy quotes,

I get out in the west and it's like, it takes three hours to fly from there to there. I can't quite calibrate. I feel like the maps are pretty straightforward on this. It's the perception of the distance traveled. You know what I mean. All right. Well, wherever you are, get to Minneapolis, October 27.

Tickets on seal now. Ringer.com slash events. Also, last piece of business, expanding the group chat universe just slightly. We're going to have a new show. It's called Group Chat Explains. Find it on YouTube. It might be out as we're recording this right now. It is Explain Your Videos about all of the pressing topics that you have about the NBA.

So if it's not there as this is out, I'm sorry, but we'll get there eventually and it will be there throughout the season. So check for that. Anything else you want to get to? Any new business? We got enough business to take care of today. Let's get to the pod. Okay. Why don't we take a quick break and we come back?

We'll start the preseason power ranking, 2026, 2027. This episode is presented by Sam's Club during the holidays. Everyone's in a club. The last minute gift givers club. The cool aunts club? The food coma club? Whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off. Need to get a meal on the table in under two hours?

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All right, same process as usual. I believe this is what? Like probably the fifth time we're doing this, fifth annual preseason power rankings. We really toiled over this exercise. We're like, what unique topic that nobody else in NBA podcasting can we do? And we're like preseason power rankings.

We did invent it. Yeah. We didn't invent the power ranking. We did invent podcasting about the power ranking. That's right. You know, it's a real chick-fil-a kind of situation. Yeah, yeah. This is my first, though.

There you go. There's something new every time around. New little wrinkle. I know. Every time. Including a new human. A true new human. And like, I mean, how are you feeling your first time going through training camp with us,

getting through the paces, you know, like this is your proper media day? What's your outlook, Kyle? I think a wrinkle athlete describes me, I think, right? Like, it's, uh, hopefully a good wrinkle, you know? Sometimes there are the bad wrinkles. You look in the mirror and the process of time, you know, send you, you know, spiraling about how old you're getting. And then there are the good wrinkles, like some of these teams who have made,

brilliant segue here that have made changes and added to their offenses and tried to add wrinkles so that they're not so singular. But these teams at the bottom that we're going to be starting talking about, not a lot of good wrinkles to go around, I would just say. That would be my starting point. I feel like doing this exercise every year really crystallized for me what kind of podcast we make. Because we look at the data sometimes, okay, like what episodes are working? What episodes aren't? You look at the data? It's a very, very generous way.

Sorry, Justin looks at the data and conveys to us the findings of said data. And the findings year every year are that this episode in which we talk about the five worst teams in the league is among our most listened to pods, which is like this is how we find our people by talking about the Sacramento Kings. Well, this is exactly why I love the exercise. Because we're giving enough to every team. We're going to go in depth on all 30 teams. We might not talk about some of these teams for weeks, months. We'll get there eventually. Speak for yourself.

Yeah. You will talk a lot. about them, I will pretend and not along. I think there's comedy in the doldrum. It's a combination of this. I think there's comedy in the in the basement of the NBA. There's obviously the point and laugh factor. But then there's also the hopefulness, the reset button, which I find to be some of the most fun fan bases to interact with it. You know, me starting out covering the draft when I got into this field, that was the most fun I had was like, they're so hopeful and happy. It's like, so you get a little bit of combination of the fun, funny depression and the hopefulness.

list at the bottom. Group chat is for the people, including those in the greater Sacramento area, because we're starting at number 30, the Sacramento Kings. You guys both had them as your number 30 team. I did not. I have the next team that we're going to talk about. I did so because as I was weighing who would be the absolute worst in the league next year, I was like, the Kings, if they have anything, it's shame.

And if anything, they prioritize that more than other teams that were tanking last year. They weren't worried about losing some of those late games and ultimately slid in the lottery rankings as a result of that. I think the same thing that could happen this year where they just win a couple stupid games and that's why they're the number 13 team and that's why. They prioritize shame. That was kind of the what I tell. They have shame. I guess I would say. They don't suppress it in order to influence their lottery balls.

I would still say not enough. Like you look at the roster that they returned, even with some of the changes they made and it's like this is still step two of a 50. step process back to prosperity to the extent that the kings have ever been prosperous. And so it's like there's such a long time horizon for this team. They're going to be quite bad. I just, I don't really see any reason to defend them from being the 30th best team in the league. I think they've earned that. I think they've justified it with the roster that they've assembled here, which is

not only cobbled together with a kind of holdover veteran, but the specific like young point guard factor is fun to watch. Like Darius Aikoff, I think we're all excited to see what he can do as a pro. but you can't expect teams led by any kind of young point guard to be good out of the gate or competent out of the gate. He's has so much to learn about how to run a team like this. Oh, yeah. You got all of that. I mean, that's the positive side.

I had a big bullet written down in my notes for the Kings of just asking the question, is there any world where we're wrong about the Kings, where we're seeing this incorrectly? What would have to be off for us to be wildly wrong about the Kings? And to what extent is that even possible? And I kind of came away. The only thing that I was coming away with was it's possible that by product of subtraction, that they are more focused, which can be a positive in and of itself in the NBA where you streamlined.

You get Russ. You get to, I was joking with Rob about, I think you said, Damar was the most insistent players. Is that the way you said it with Zach? It sounds like some bullshit, I would say. I'm going to be honest. And I was laughing as I was probably walking my dog, whatever it was. And I was like, it's funny that they, the Kings last year had two of the most insistent players of the past 20, 25 years on the same team.

I think you could argue that DeMars was a little bit more forgivable, I guess, at the end of day than Russ, or at least more workable, judging by the fact that he's still playing. And then they had, you know, Russ just sucks up a lot of oxygen. So I think if you remove those two guys and the way that they play and you just say, all right, Darius, this is focused around you, just that focus in and of itself is a tiny, baby step in a direction, whereas they're bad with old players, which is just kind of a form of basketball flailing. So what's interesting about this team is despite the fact that they only won 22 games last year, it's virtually the same team coming back, despite Damar and Russ not being there. That's a significant change.

They didn't really, they didn't add much is the thing. They added two rookies, ACOF, Caraban, but their only big, like, splash. Yeah. Was our guy Ben Simmons. who might not even make the roster. First of all, the Mobo erasure that's happening here. Oh, no. You can't come on this pot and pretend that Jonathan Mobo is on the scene.

It has to be mentioned. Mogbo has, and I have to be accountable for drafting Moogbo. Anyway, we move forward. But I think part of that is because they just couldn't move on from a lot of the veterans that they have signaled. They are going to move on from eventually. But they're just all hanging out here being like, trade request, trade requests, and nobody cares. And so Sabonis is back. Levine is back.

DeAndre Hunter is back, probably because nobody. he wants him as well. Blake Monk is still here. And so it's a weird, like we have moved on, but all of these guys are still here. And if anything, it might be tough to even move on this season because who wants these guys? Yeah. That's why I'm tempted to say, like I was alluding to, just moving on from Westbrook and DeRosen should create a lot of opportunity.

But all of those guys still being there, Demona Sabona Sabone is coming back hopefully full time this season. He's more accommodating than either Russ or DeMara as a player. But he's still just like, you want to run offense through him. You want to leverage what DeMondis de Monis says, well, whether you want him to be a part of the Kings or you want to showcase him for a potential trade. And so it's like, yes, Darius Akoff is going to get a chance to do some things. Hopefully Kegan Murray can kind of get settled in his career. You would love to look at this somewhat youngish portion of the roster and say, okay, these guys are going to get real cracks?

And I just am not even sure that's the case. And that's what leaves me wondering, are the Kings not only going to be very bad, but also very depressing as we kind of continue to just toil along with the same, old, same old version of this roster that doesn't work, that nobody wants, that nobody wants to pick up the straight pieces of going one more time around. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thing where the Kings have failed, we'll see, you know, A-Cuff, we'll see what he can pull off and if he can end up being like a star centerpiece player, improve that and earn that. They've done a pretty good job in the margins later in the draft, adding guys that are just at least positives. They're kind of minor positives. If you think about Maxime Renaud, who I liked in that draft

class. I think that he's kind of stuck around and has a chance to step forward. Learning from Sabonis, I think is a really interesting situation for him to be in as a player. And then they did a good job unearthing Dylan Cardwell, a guy who is like a really mobile, defensive, like high energy rebounding guy. And then they added these guys Emmanuel Sharp and then Alex Caraband, like I was saying. So they're in an interesting position where they're kind of offloading, hopefully that's their mindset. It's just continuing tried to offload some of these higher salaried veteran guys who don't necessarily fit in the in the future. and they vary in terms of degrees of desirability around the league.

Obviously, Zach Levine, we'll see what happens with that. But Subonis, I would expect to be, he will interface with A Cuff well. And I think that he's in a position to kind of try to rehab his trade value, I think. And there are, you know, even though the market's not crazy for him, I would think that he's incentivized to try to play pretty well. Well, that's a good segue to our existential question, or is it an essential question? We never really figured it out. But every team is going to have one key question.

And we're also going to name some guys or things. Rob has offered to seeing guys and things in the vein of guys and dolls. But I don't know if you want to break that out now, save it for a later pod. I'm going to see guys and dolls. Not familiar with it. I'm going to wait for the check to hit my bank account. See, you say it. Why are you just going to do it?

Own it. You clearly have no shame after that Danilo Golanari impression you did. Well, here's the first existential slash essential question, which is. is basketball death pool. So who goes first? DeAndre Hunter, Zach Levine, Malik Monk, Demonis a bonus for guys. I think you guys would all assume maybe not there for the future, some of which might not be there for the present. Which are these guys do you see going first? So when you pose this question to us, I really thought at first you were asking us to predict who was going to die first. Like who was actually going to die? Can we talk about that?

We can actually talk about it. I think it's a little rude to put that on to people we don't know, these NBA players. But Justin, I have to say, it let me down a rabbit hole. I have a question for you, which is, would you like to know when you are going to die? Oh, no. Well, I have bad news. I have the answer. Have you been working your star chart here in Los Angeles? No, I'm not quite fluent in that just yet, but I did find a death prediction calculator. Jesus Christ. I entered, I'm not going to name which one. They don't deserve any extra business. I entered your birthday. I made some educated guesses about your lifestyle, I am happy or unhappy to report that you will die on March 1st, 26th, 26-ish years old. Does that sound about right? That's a good run. You know,

it did, what of the criteria? I think so. I actually saw something recently where if someone was 40, maybe it was a dumb Instagram, I'm sure it was a dumb Instagram. They're like, oh, you only, like, on average, people only live 36 more years. And I was like, holy shit, That's all I got. And so that seems to be spot on there. Right, right on the money. One of the questions that it asked to try to profile this was like, what is your... Well, I mean, that would take years off your life, clearly.

But what is your general outlook? And I pick, like, the most extreme pessimism and anxiety possible. I just figured that checked out for you. The actual answer, I think, is DeAndre Hunter. He's owed the least money. Not that he will die first, but it's like moving. If he dies, we're going to have to do it. We're going to have a lot to answer for it.

I want to be clear. not saying any of the Sacramento Kings will actually die. You have any objections to this framing, point them at Justin Verrier. I mean, I don't know if you guys have caught wind of this, like, hot mic situation from some King's reporters, and it sounds like Zach Levine's wife is quite mad. She's hopping mad. Could there be a sort of like something happened there,

and then Zach Levine gets roped in, and there goes Zach? I think if the Kings had the ability to just trade Zach Levine, they would have done it. That would have happened. You're not getting this analysis about potential members. Good Lord. We're talking about death. I love this path.

I think we should stay on it. We got to get you off the internet. I know you're trying to be like a little more hands-on in your homemaking these days, but we need to go full off the grid. We need to get you in a cabin in the woods, completely detached air-gapped all around except for league pass, I think. I have to admit that I'm definitely guilty of being like Tommy Lee Jones and Men in Black, where when I'm walking down the street of NBA basketball coverage, I will occasionally jump off and check T.

GMZ MBA or like just the like news rags. Just there's some hilarious context you can get. Like what Justin just said, that might come into play. You never know. Dumber things have happened. Dumber things have happened. I can't even pull up my like following. What's the not the for you tab on Twitter?

I can't even do that in public anymore. I'll be honest. It's just. Instagram you mean? Yeah. No, no. On Twitter where they have the two tabs. They have the one you're following and one that's for you.

That's just the algorithm spitting out which they think you like. like, which is exactly what you like, by the way. What does it think you want? We can't talk about it. I get Twitter anymore, I give, I give them credit. I give the algorithm credit sometimes where I'm like, yeah, that was, that was right. That was a good call. But I've noticed they, if you watch the first one, they're like, here's a seven-minute thing.

And I'm like, we're not doing that. So I don't know. All right. Basketball. Great digression. You're saying DeAndre Hunter goes first because of the contract. Yeah, he's not being paid like $50 million. He's an expiring for this year.

I don't think DeAndre Hunter is like super useful but you could see teams in a certain range saying okay we just want like a little more length on the wing we want a different kind of forward from what we have so let's trade for DeAndre Hunter just like the Cavs did just like the Kings did other teams have talked themselves into this before and so I could see one more doing it

and big Fune K might work for us energy with DeAndre Hunter I think that one will just kind of linger that's the Bulls I don't know why I'm looking at that blankly I think it'll be a bonus just because I think that he does have suitors and there are some teams out there that I think could talk themselves into that. I was trying to remember who gave him the current deal, like which executive gave him? Because he's making 48 million this year and 51 million next year. Do you remember? Was that, was that, was that,

which regime? Monty McNair? Or was it Lottie? Must have been McNair. Because he did sign an extension with the Kings. Sounds right. Bonkers. It's just bonkers because he's one of one of those really interesting players where it's like, you see the clear positives. He's only, 30 years old, I think. It's like you would think that he still has some good, you know, production, but it's all of his positives are countered with just these terrible negatives, uh, with the shooting and the defense and stuff like that. But I would think somebody could take like a short-term flyer on him and just eat that money. I mean, for the record, I don't think the shooting is that bad. I think it's the, the well-articulated limitations are so much more about who he is protecting the

rim, who he is defending in space. Like all of that stuff really holds you back. If you're a playoff teams driving for the next level. But the case for the Kings to not be 30 is that DeMonna Sabonis will hopefully play more than 19 games. And if he does that, like, Samonis is really good. And we always talk about the limitations. We always talk about the weaknesses. He is wildly productive and wildly successful.

And I think, Kyle, to what you laid out with Akuf, like helps a lot of other players draft off of his handoffs in a way that can be really beneficial to them and the way they operate around the floor. So just having Sabonis back will help. But I hear what you're saying about a team kind of convincing themselves of, of getting to the next level of whatever it is they're trying to do by bringing in a center like him. So bonus is definitely the most valuable player of this bunch.

My question is which team would trade for him in this situation? I think Charlotte has come up in the past with rumors. Makes a lot of sense. But as they encounter injuries, we'll talk about them in future episodes. Like they also traded two of their better players in order to get draft picks back. Seems like they're taking a long view.

Would they really rush to do so when they can sign him in two years in free agency if he does hit there? And so for that reason, I would say it's tough. I think he's also more valuable to the kings now, as Rob and you laid out. And so I would put him on the lower end of this. I actually think the hardest one is Malik Monk, just because he's the exact type of player who isn't getting paid in this environment. He's making over $20 million the next two years.

I want to say it's Zach Levine for the sole reason that I think that they would be willing to pay him to go away at this point. Because he definitely impacts, I think, whatever they're trying to build the most. Now, he's making close to $50 million just this. year alone. But I don't see him getting traded for that reason. I don't even know where you come up with the matching salary to get him on another team. I could just see midway through the season, he's injured, and he just kind of just goes away. We either pay him to do so, or he just kind of goes off into the distance. Just vanishes from view in some way. Yeah, he goes to his farm with the cows. Would you like to be paid to go away? Would you be okay with that? 100%. Yeah. It really depends on who you are.

I would be like, that'd be nice, but I would be pretty deeply insulted. Don't buy this. He says that. He's so sensitive. This man loves the spotlight. He wants the attention. He just wants to deflect it to pretend that he doesn't want it sometimes. I have no idea what you're talking about.

It's an interesting thing where when a team is really woefully inefficient and has like a misguided primary situation as the Kings have had recently, it has such a downstream effect because I was looking, you were right about Sabonis's numbers. He's up in the 40s with catch and shoot and things like that. But Monk took way. His numbers came down on catch and shoot. which is something, that'd be like bare minimum, what I'd be wanting from him to Spackle. I know Spackle's going to come up again in these six pods that we're going to be doing. You know, because you're the one saying. I do know that.

I'm in control to push that button over and over again. But he is so lopsided towards contested catch and shoot. He's just not getting good shots. And I think that has hurt his efficiency. It kind of makes you wonder if there's a little bit more to mind with him there. Or somebody could look at him and say, that's an inefficiency in the optics of Moumunk. as a player that maybe we could capitalize on if we have better structure.

So I can see that happening. It's just a tough balance to shift if you are a Malik Monk type where your value internally has been like, I hit tough shots. I make shit happen coming off the bench in the starting lineup, whatever it is. I mean, tomorrow is kind of a version of this, like a different flavor of the same thing, right?

Of like when your primary value is making the most out of difficult situations, it's hard to zoom out and be like, why am I creating so many difficult situations? Why am I settling for these opportunities when basketball could be easier than this? We're in an easy situation. You can relax.

Yeah, like, how's he going to respond to that with Denver is going to be really fascinating? But for Malik Monk, this is why, I mean, not to get too morbid with the deathpool element, but, like, he's just going to be buried in Sacramento at some point. Like, I think it's going to be hard for him to get out of this environment because the market on him has soured so much. Yes, those guys make ten tops now. He's making double bet. All right, guys and things. I almost said guys and dolls.

There's so many, honestly, even that we haven't talked about. I am kind of optimistic about the Ben Simmons thing. I say that. Let's go. I mean, you could probably find a word for word version of that quote from a power ranking we did five years ago as well. What's wrong with you? Here's what it is.

I have no illusion that he is going to come in and shoot at all. That anything is fixed, that anything has changed about who Ben Simmons is as a basketball player. But the reason he wasn't in the NBA last season is because he was so hurt. He stopped being good at defense. And he loved. loves fishing apparently. Well, I mean, we all have our passions.

So I hope he caught the big one, I hope he did everything he wanted to accomplish out there. I just want to see, like, the all-defense version of Ben Simmons again, and I hope he is healthy enough to bring that form to life. And maybe not to quite that level, but at least to somewhat impressive levels. I'm no doctor.

I kind of wonder the back thing, it's just, if your back is even something that you're thinking about as somebody who's supposed to have the, if someone that has the defensive expectations that he has, I just don't know that he can get to that level again. And that doesn't even factor in the offensive quandary of having him out there and the conditions that it takes to have him be productive. I just don't, I'm skeptical of that.

Maybe you get that in very small bursts, but I don't know that we're ever going to get like heavy load, the heavy load version of Ben Simmons. He was coming off the bench. He's going to be in a supporting role, to say the least. Also, the sea is nourishing, you know, for the soul and the body. The salt water, you're saying. Absolutely.

Do you see Clay? Clay, look like he'd been out on his boat. a lot of son. What's the point of buying one if you're not going to really put it in the time? Do you see Aaron Sorkin at the... See, I don't think he's been out in the sun a single second. I just think he's been in a radioactive booth for a while. He's high in the death pool. I'll say that. Well, if you're looking to... Go to your dermatologist, Aaron Sorkin, please. Right. If you're looking to learn more about Ben Simmons' journey back to the court,

I can tell you that he did an E60 in collaboration with Anscape documentary that's coming out on the 18th of October. Is it titled? Being Ben. What's a runtime on that? Ben Simmons is back. 31. And he's got a story to tell.

Oh, it hopes so. I-imoges looking left. If you're going to make a multi-part docu-series, like, there better be some story. That's why I think I'm a little bit more pessimistic. If you're setting this up, like, it just sounds like he probably needs money. He probably spent it all on, like, spearfishes. You know what I mean? Like, big spears cost a lot of money.

Gaming CPUs get pricey. Are spearfish a type of fish, or you're saying spearfishing, fishing? I'm seeing the spears for the spear fishing. You think he's out here just like harpooning shit? Like castaway style. Wow. See, that's a documentary I'd fucking watch. Ben Simmons harpooning things?

Okay, well, it sounds like you're side-down. You're welcome, Simo, the sicko. Sold. All right, any other guys or things? Is there any particular reason why DeAndre Hunter should be starting on this team over Neat Clifford? and yet I expect that to be what happens. But I don't really know any basketball things

that DeAndre Hunter does better than Neat Clifford at this point. I don't think it was a coincidence that basically any second Clifford was on the floor, the Kings got better for it. Like his connectivity, his defense, I just like the way he sort of navigates the action and finds little ways to contribute to what everybody else is doing. I just, I don't know. Other than putting DeAndre Hunter in the window for any passers-by

who happened to catch him on an 18-point night, I don't really get why he would be starting for this team. I guess that Connor would be he just didn't play last year, so he didn't have an opportunity to disappoint a new team. And so you traded for him. You probably want to give him that opportunity. And starting, honestly, at this stage of the NBA, it really just goes to guys who have gotten paid enough

or have earned a certain level of their career in order to earn that respect. And so that's probably it. Don't team me up to talk positively about Neat Clifford, because I will take the bait every single time. I think we should. What are we doing here if not that? Are they at the same age?

God, they might be. He's like 24. Yeah. No, I mean, Clifford just does a wide array of things really well. He shoots, and he grew into a pretty good playmaker by the time he entered the NBA. So I think any scales really well. I don't think that he has, like, self-sabotaging ambition about who he is. So I think you're right.

When he comes out there, it's just like hit open shots. Granted, there aren't a lot of, the more open shots that they can create, like, I wouldn't say that A-Cuff is like an elite playmaker, but he's a pretty solid. game manager. So I think the sanity that we were talking about in the opening of just removing the insanity of some of the guys that they, that they, you know, departed, shipped off whatever it was, I think that Clifford could benefit from that. Especially if, as you're saying with Acuff, he's not a first-order playmaker, then you want that facilitation from a guy like Clifford. As far as the younger prospects on this team who make sense with the Darius Acuff that I understand,

Neat-Clifford is that guy, whereas Maxime Rano is interesting and promising. but I think he really benefits, to be honest, from Subonis coming back. Not just like the overexposure of having to play as much as he did last season, but he needs to figure out, can he be the sort of hybrid four or five who can cross-match enough to protect himself defensively to still make an impact on games that matter. And that's going to be a longer path for him. But I think there's reason enough to believe in who he is as a post-player

that kind of touch and finesse that he showed down there, obviously what his length can do for you. I'm hopeful for Maxime Rino. It's just that that's a project. All right, number 29, we have the Milwaukee Bucks, a team that I ranked last in this exercise. I have a little bit of buyer's remorse there, just because throughout Media Day, which has happened the day before this as we're recording this, just seemed like there's a lot of guys here. There is depth, and as we've seen in recent years, depth does, has a way of stacking regular season wins. They don't have picks, and so there is no real reason to tank it out for the Bucks.

having said that though, it really is just margins. If they're not 29th, if they're not 30, then I think they're going to be in this bottom 26th tier, like somewhere from there on down. What about you guys? Where do you stand on the buck just going into the season? This is a lot of guys that do have that depth that you described. I guess my hang-up is like when that depth has absolutely nothing to do with itself

and all these players don't seem to have any kind of inherent synergy at all, what does that depth really by you? What's driving that? thought, though, where do you see an absence? Like, what are they lacking? I mean, obviously shot creation for one. You lose Janus, you're going to lose that kind of downhill drive. But then you look at the supplementary pieces that are here, the rookies that are brought in, and the way that in a Kings-esque way, the opportunity kind of devours itself, it's like when you have, like, cannibalizing minutes among Ryan Rollins and Braden Burris and Kevin Porter Jr. and Tyler

Hero and Casparus Yakichonis, like, that's a lot of guys who need time or will be expecting time. And so that's why I wonder, it's a really hard sell for me if your team is very deep, but also very bad. And I expect the bucks to be bad because it's like you can sell the 13th guy on a playoff team. You're not going to play that much. Like you're not in a regular rotation, but wait your turn and you will have a time. Can you tell the 13th guy on the bucks like wait your turn as we roll off eight losses in 10 games? It's just a much harder sell. So it's like disease of less, I guess.

The disease of least, frankly. Yeah. Yeah, disease of absence of direct, I don't know, whatever, I don't know what this is. This is an aside. My brain always wants to say Yakuchonis to the tune of Amadeus, the song. Yacochonas, Yacchonis. Yacchonis. So when you say Amadeus, you're talking about the Simpsons Amadeus?

Well, no, that's Dr. Zias. Oh, that's Dr. Zias. Yeah, but the actual Amadeus. Wow. They're parodying. I'm aware. I'm aware. Yeah, some Simpsons man out there will crack on that for me, I guess.

I ranked them a little higher because when I initially was thinking about them, I was down in the basement with you guys. And as I kind of was going line by line and looking at the talent and the other teams here there at the bottom, I'm like, there are a lot of good prospects here that we can get into the kind of the guys at the top because they do have some older players that are going to have new opportunity. And I think that some of that could work. I just think that they're going to be a little scrappier than people expect, because, there are some solid NBA players. And some of the things that were going on with the heat spatially with Haime, with Yakuchonis at the end, Yacochonis, Yacchonis, Yacchonis,

hurt them. Like, the lack of playmaking, Tyler Hero was out for a long time last year. I think him coming back is going to be a positive thing. You have Ryan Rollins, you have Brayden Burries. There are just more prospects here. And then another one I wrote down was, I kind of think Uzman Jang showed some things. Like, he showed some upside and positivity. So, yeah, there are just more pieces here than I think that the Nets have or the Bulls have or the Kings have.

Well, I mean, I think you made the case there. This really is the guts of last year's heat team. And they were much better than the 30th or 29th team in the league. They weren't very good. They won 43 games. They kind of mired in the middle. I mean, they're the guts without the best player on that team. Sure.

Maybe the two best players on that team, depending on the night. But guts can still get you something, especially in an environment where a lot of teams might be. If you just had the gal bladder, what is the best? that get you? This is two guts. This is kind of like the Sauramon, like slime, two guts kind of, or Resident Evil. Yeah, they're just climbing together and creating a rat king situation. It's a little bit, and they're stood up and we're like, what is that thing? I don't like this. It's like it's the Bucks. No, this is the first, I didn't realize this, that this past season was, they've been in the playoffs nine of the last 10 seasons. The past season was, so this is an interesting, I know they're

depressed, but pretty crazy run of success for the Buc. Well, BAM wasn't really the offensive engine that really made some of that stuff go, but. Tell that's 83. that minus that one game. That's true. So there's something workable here. They're not starting from the bottom. They're probably working their way for the middle.

Where can they go from the middle? I think is the big question. We're kind of circling their existential question, which is which buck benefits the most from finally turning the page on Janus. What do you have? I think it's Collelle Ware, who was not a part clearly of that team that had Janus, but his experience in Miami seems so clearly to have run its course. Spolsterer did not trust him anymore. And when that's the case, there's just only so far you're

going to go as a member of the Miami Heat. Which is a particularly bad look because Spolster has gone through so many guys of that vintage. Like, Hassan White's side was a productive, like, human that played for him, you know, and Ware could not get to that level. The rehabilitation on Hassan White's side in Miami from like, we really don't trust this guy at all to if we prop him up just so other people might think he's good. Incredible. That was quite the coup. The side of hand was ridiculous. Clow Ware is, I would say much more talented than Nissan White's side. It may not be to expose liking or his want of like the particular tendencies of a player. But I'm really hoping that

over the course of this year, the Bucks get more and more comfortable with giving wear like a lot of opportunity. Miles Turner is kind of like not in his way, but around now and we'll see kind of how they want to suss out their starting lineup and who plays when and with whom. But Clow Ware has to get an ample chance to not just do the stuff that he does a member of the Miami Heat, which was space the floor a little bit, rebound. roll hard to the rim. A little bit.

But like, I mean, let him try more. Because I just think the stakes for this team are going to be pretty well. Yeah, Hassan and Kahl. It's like they all are kind of in that Christian Wood basketball charm school where you're like, there's a lot of hypothetical possible good here, and we want some of it to come out of the woods. I feel optimistic that Ware can kind of claw his way out of that. But I had it written down here.

He ran just this past season. I'll start with this thesis. Overall, he just needs to be. more useful in ball screens because he ran 66 total ball screens with Tyler Hero and he only shot six times. So I expect that's crazy. Well, dare I say it would help if he actually screened. Well, that's contact. That folds into what I'm talking about for sure. And he just he needs to be more of an active room role. He needs to be more aggressive. And these were questions for him coming into the league. He just needs to get meaner around the basket. Not so many of these like backfooted leaning kind of hook

shots where I'm being leaned on by the defense or getting run off his line. He just needs to be, he needs to kind of, we criticized, I remember earlier in the season last year, like Wendell Carter Jr. We were just kind of like, can you be one of these things for sure? And that's kind of the situation that Kalelewears is in overall, I think. So I have Tyler Hero for this one, which might be the easiest one on the board. That was my answer too. Okay, $33 million expiring contract. And so he is at a crossroads moment, as we were saying before, with Malik Monk, this type of player certainly is getting depreciated in this market. And so if he even plays well this season, I could also see him taking a big haircut

even to stay or for another team. I thought it was pretty symbolic that the last thing that he did as a Heat member was getting punched in the face by Bam Ed and Bio, the face of the franchise for the Heat. Somehow a guy who's basically a ballsy score, like known for his toughness and like playing the Heat way, just like ran out of favor even with the fan base. he was injured a lot, obviously not the most efficient guy, didn't really take the step forward that I think a lot of people, even the big believers, he ever did.

And so he is kind of at a moment where, like, he needs to change his game to add more, try a little bit more defensively, or be a little bit more of a playmaker, get guys involved, especially for this team, which needs it. Otherwise, I think he will go the way of the monks and some of these energy scores. And he's looking at a career as like a sixth man, again,

on a good team, which is where he started with the heat in the bubble. I want to go the way at the monks. I think I'm not taking that up for myself. I mean, it helps a lot of players these days, apparently. It really does. Channel the mind, quiet the voice within. I think with Hero, like, everything you're saying is true about what he could theoretically prove. I'm just, like, flashing forward and trying to imagine anyone who doesn't believe in Tiley Hero,

how would you come out of this upcoming year with like, oh, my perspective on him has totally changed? Because for this team that didn't even make the playoffs, he did X, Y, and Z. Now, if he is, like, putting in, true. like Yeoman's work into the little parts of the game that aren't there. I guess, but like he's, I think he's just Tyler Hero. And that player is good and that player is useful. But if you're in, you're in and you're out, you're out. I think it's safe to say that this is probably, maybe it's not safe to say.

I expect this to be the most fun year of his career. Now, whether or not, I think, you know, him coming home, if you look at him in like the photo shoots and the media day stuff, he just seems like he's having a great time. Like, this is a new lease on life at his age. he's going to get to shoot the ball a lot. Like I think he's going to, these things are going to all kind of be in favor for him to have a good time. Just crack your tooth with the. I think I was the mic.

You ever do mugged a tooth? That's a tough one. No, I expect him to have a really productive year. But it's interesting your thing about him sliding. Like, you think this is kind of a fork in the road for him in terms of like who he is for his next deal. It's probably the last opportunity he will have to do so without someone. forcing him to do it. And so really it's on him to start to expand his game. I thought this stat was really interesting. So he makes the All-Star team in 2024-25, so the season before last,

before he got injured. His assist rate was the highest of his career, 26.2. It ranked right along these players, Franz Wagner, Draymond, Green, Paolo, Bencaro, De Mano Savonis. So Biggs, who are just willing good passers. Like, that's where he's at. He needs to, like, jump a level to someone who could actually be more of a willing ball handler type. Because that's what they're going to, you know, need from that spot. Otherwise, you are going to get shoehorned as energy score. There's really no other path. Yeah, because he doesn't have the other supplementary skills. That's what it is. Like, if you're going to be a first option score or even like a really high level second option score, you got be a fucking flamethrower out there, or you have to be able to guard, or you have to be able to

make plays or rebound. It's like that stuff is all sometimes there, but honestly a little lacking with Hero. And it's like, this is where the bucks are, right? They are in search of their next guy. The next guy who's going to take them on the run Kyle was talking about where you're making the playoffs nine out of 10 years. It's been a charmed life with Janus and things are going to get very different in Milwaukee. Apologies to Bucks fans who have not only suffered the extended, you know, prolonged trade saga of Yannis getting out of town in the first place. But now, I mean, if you're a younger Bucks fan, that might be all that you ever knew. And that's not the history of Milwaukee certainly or this franchise. But where things go from here is so murky and so uncertain.

And it starts with Tyler Hero, but I don't think it ends in any way with Tyler Hero. It's interesting because you think back about you all talking about like the roles that he's best optimized in. I was pulling up his, I guess it was 1920. Was that the bubble finals? Yeah. So his, yeah, I mean, like his spot up in his like off screen three point shooting numbers were crazy. So it's kind of like maybe he needs to be disabused about this idea of like and I don't, you know, brown on anybody who pursues, you know, taking more because those things equal money for his family. He wants to be a primary, and if he thinks that's within reach, okay, that might be misguided,

or maybe he'll continue to find teams that will give him that type of money, and he doesn't win. But I don't know. Like, if you look at the guys on this team, though, it's like how is Ryan, Ryan Rollins was ascendant at points, you know, in the absence of the, of Janus. I argued with Bucks fans that kind of pissed him off because of my Braden Burry's optimism really weirdly. I was like, I think, I was like, I don't know why that annoys you all. I think I really, really am super high on Brain Burys. It wouldn't shock me if he starts at some point for this team. That was one of my big takes with them.

So is that the needling? Like, what is it that drove you apart? Bucks fans, I love you. I really don't know why that annoyed them so much. I really don't. Like, I think Burries is incredible, and it's going to be an incredible two-way player for them. But just figuring out, and then the Kevin Porter Jr. thing, those guys. Burries is the only guy that I could see cohesively coming in and being very productive

in a supportive role to hero in a way that like Rollins and Porter Jr. It doesn't make as much sense to me. Any other guys or things you guys want to talk about? Taylor Jenkins. Welcome back. Back in the fold. Yeah. Good luck.

I guess he didn't make a lot of shit sandwiches. What is the phrase, the idiom? Chicken shit into chicken salad? Is that the one you're looking for? He made the salad with a lot of bad lineups in Memphis over his time. Okay. And so perhaps he could do a little bit of magic there. I mean, it's a tough job, this one.

Even if it goes well, again, it's just like a lot of juggling of egos along the way. I hope you can pull it off. Why not shit sandwich? Like, are we so health conscious now that we're all going to salads? Well, it's chicken salad. So you can make a chicken salad sandwich.

A chicken shit salad sandwich if you want. Yeah. I think that's the implication. I'm just trying new things, guys. You're just hungry. Yeah. As long as there's no celery in it, I'm not really big on celery.

Don't you need a textural element, though? Just don't. No crunch for you. I can do without it. What a shame. Grape's fine. You know, end the shit. That's fucked up.

Yeah. No. No grapes and chicken salad. I mean, keep the grapes out of most things. Like, I love a grape as a grape, but it's not a team player. You've had curry chicken salad? I have had curry chicken salad. It doesn't eat a grape fit.

It'll tell you that. The one guy I want to mention is Damian Lillard. He is making the third most on this team this year. Good on you. Good on you, Dan. Tyler, Tyler, Miles Turner, Damien Lillard, who now plays the Portland Trailways. Miles Turner and Kalelea wears.

What an incredible, what an incredible duo. I know. I think my main concern with this team more than any other is not the depth. It's not, is Tyler Hero the guy, it's Kyle Kuzma is here. And I'm just a little worried that he's going to continue to sop up a lot of minutes and time and opportunity away from these other guys. Despite the fact that that ship like has sailed and sank a long time ago. He should not be a Milwaukee buck.

He's trying to get on CNN money or whatever every day now. I assume he's going to be faking some injuries. Was that what? I think he was going to start for this team. For how long? Too long. Even if it's a week, it's too long. Again, I'm looking at Kloa Ware.

I'm looking at Nate A-Mitt. I'm like, I want a chance for these guys to do something. And I don't really see anything worth competing for that Kyle Kuzmo will solve. All right. Why don't we take a quick break? And when we come back, we'll do the remaining three. teams on today's docket. This episode is brought to you by Sam's Club.

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Come join us, Sam's Club. All right, number 28, the Brooklyn Nets, who some fans have tried to sell me on as having a higher ceiling for this season. I think the cases, and we're going to talk about a couple of these teams, is that they artificially suppressed what they could do last season. And so is there enough institutional know-how? Is there enough good coaching? What a nice way to say tanking. I mean, is that? Exactly.

But were they under-correcting, can they now over-correct? and win more games than we would expect just because they're more dialed in than, say, an organization like the Sacramento Kings. Well, especially when Julius Randall, for all of his Julius Randallness, is better than any player who was on the Brooklyn Nets roster last season, Michael Porter, Jr. And so from a pure talent perspective, bringing in Julius Randall, that he's better than Michael Porter Jr.? You think Randall has more value than Michael Porter Jr.? How up are you on Mike's podcasting these days? Well, I was going to say the most, I had it written down here, the most harmful field goal attempt. that MPJ takes are like on his podcast.

I actually, shockingly. Look, Mike Porter Jr. was really good for the Nets last season. Let's, let's extend an olive branch here and say they are in the same cohort as players. Because he listens to a lot of podcasts doing QC for his own, yeah. You simply have to. I just think if you're a team that has a chance to win, I think you look at those two guys and I don't even think it's close. Well, I have good news. The Nets don't have a chance to win. Well, no, I'm just saying if you were, if you were thinking of courting one of those two guys, if they made the exact same amount of

I'm not trying to argue with you about a stupid thing. This is a podcast. I think NBJ, I would value him way above Julius Randall. Why wouldn't we argue about stupid things? I don't understand. I just want to know why you said that. That's all. I said it because the best version of Julius Randall,

the version that was occasionally there for the Wolves last season, even for extended stretches, is a really unique player, one that's really tough to guard, one that has a lot of defensive ability and application. I don't know that all that's going to come out in the best healthiest way for the Brooklyn Nets this year. But the talent with Julius Randall has never really been up for debate. Let me throw the needle here.

I think Michael Porter Jr., more valuable player on the market considering the player type he is. He actually shot the hell out of the ball the first half of the season. Unfortunately, then he started saying things, and one of those things was, I stopped trying after I did not make the All-Star team. Now, the entire organization wasn't trying very hard last year, so who could blame him? But that's not the type of thing you want to hear. And so he's kind of back to start, especially because he goes into the season, unrestricted free agent next year.

This is a real make-good year for him. Justice Randall is just more critical to everything going on offensively. And I'm curious what sort of role he plays here, because on the one hand, he's going to occupy the ball a lot. On the other hand, they also brought in a ton of guys over the past two years to do that exact same thing. You'd assume Yeager Die Oman is going to be there. Obviously, Michael Brown. And so can he be the type of guy who handles that load, but is also willing to pass it up in order to get these other guys, the reps that they're going to need to develop, is my big. question. I'm going to spin this in the most positive way I can, which is the most realistic

environment in terms of running a team is one in which one of the kind of stars of your team is kind of grumpy all the time, and you have to figure out how to placate him. Me? I mean, I don't want to name names. But so, yeah, the idea for Yeager and Michael Brown of like, okay, we're going to throw you out here. We're going to try to surround you with some vaguely NBA-esque talent to see what you can do running an offense, managing this thing on your own, or as a duo really. But also, like, how are you going to, how are you going to deal with Julius Randall over here to the side, sometimes grabbing the reins from you, sometimes needing to defer to him

because he's having a hot night? Like, that's part of the balance of being an NBA player. That thing is actually really good for them to go through this early. I just feel like there's some, like, what is it, Sandy Lyle from Along Came Polly, like, in that production of Jesus Christ Superstar where he's like, all right, I'm going to play Jesus and Judas. Like, with MPJ and Julius Randall, like, you have this thing. of like, oh, there's this fun, wasn't it like a high school production I don't even remember

from the movie? Anyway, like, Yeager and Mikel is a very fun proposition. Now, I want to say they ain't garden shit. That team is so wispy. They're like, don't worry about it. It's a problem for tomorrow. Paint touches, woo, through the moon. It will be fun, though. And it's kind of live dribble, all that kind of stuff. You just look at the way MPJ and Randall fit into that. It's like, when you said like supporting them or having them around, it's like, those guys don't really do that. They have such insistent ways that they play. And I'm not trying to make it all about them, but it's kind of an inevitable thing. It's just an interesting, it's an interesting thing, almost like the way the Sixers had the young guards that were really

exciting. And then just kind of the downer of the like this Embedd thing isn't really on our timeline. And it makes you wonder, like, are those two guys on the timeline with whatever the Nets are doing? I would imagine not. But also the young prospects, they really whiffed. I tried to be optimistic. on the Diom and Wolf, you know, Traori thing. And it's like I was looking at the way they played. It's like, and Saroff, fun players that are good passers, but if you don't get to the rim and you're not a great three-point shooting team or you're not, you know, you don't have that kind of gravity.

They just have a lot of questions they answer, both old and new. Yeah, it feels like this season is where the check comes due a little bit for Sean Marks, but he's just like, yes. You say that. Yeah, he has the pockets out, like Monopoly guy style. He's like, no money. It's just there needs to be something here that you could hang your hat on. and it does seem to be like the long away potential of their rookie or the guy last year who probably showed enough that we're keeping him around and giving them still reps.

They have all these ball handlers. It just, what's the plan? And this year feels like the rubber meeting the road of like, I need to see at the very least a runway to get to a team. And I don't think they're at that point. I will say this, though, rather than trying to upload a bunch of veterans and just make like a decent team. they did the hard work of like staying on this path toward a rebuild. If they got more Julius Randall types, then this would just be a failure in a couple of years. But still, like, I just don't know where we're going.

I respect the fact that they, at the very least, are taking the long view. I think where we're going is wherever Jomon and Brown take us. Like, that is a back court pairing I'm really excited about. And the way that they could synergize on offense, like the combination of driving and playmaking and shooting, like it just kind of fits on offense. I share Kyle's skepticism on defense to say the least. But if they can work as a tandem, I think that gives you at least a place to go. And then you can start to understand, okay, these are the kinds of bigs we want to round those guys.

These are kinds of wings we need to support them. Because right now, everything is so fluid and loose. It's hard to pin down even what the net should be chasing other than really good players they don't have. What's the significance of the Klaxen departure, too? Because I was kind of looking at the production that MPJ did have. he didn't have like a noticeable spike and self-created offense. Like he really, really shot the hell out of the ball and dribble handoffs this past. Like it jumped up.

You would think that there would not be a whole lot of room for it to jump up after playing with Yokic because he's the literal god of that sense. But yeah, it kind of makes me wonder, like, how is MPJ going to interface on offense with those two, with Mikel and with, because it is going to be a different mode, I think. And maybe Dayron Sharp steps into that role a little bit. I'm just kind of curious how that all maps out. I mean, Darren Sharp being penciled in as a starter is a cool story. Like, I don't know that he's ever going to be fully ready to be a every game starter

for a good quality team. But he has a lot of stuff that he brings to the table that I like. A lot of stuff that Nick Claxton showed at various points in his time in Brooklyn. Like, he will do some of that dribble handoff stuff or some of the kind of like passing out of the short role. Also, an incredible rebounder. Also, just good enough as a switch defender to keep it interesting. We'll see with Darren Sharp.

But I'm glad he's going to have this chance. chance and have this job basically is his to lose. That's the problem with the Nets. They have a lot of guys that you would hope would be high-level backups, like just intriguing guys, guys that like have something to them, but they don't have the core of what's going to be their next team. This probably brings us to our essential question, which is MPJ, whether or not he is a keeper or not,

or you just trade him and start getting more and more assets for him. I think Kyle is right last year. Legitimate shotmaker was really good in the first half of the season, was winning games for them, was hitting big shots for them, looked like the type of player. He always said he could be, but no one really gave him credit for it because he was playing my Hanyo Gitch. And really didn't do the things that Michael Malone wanted him to.

Perhaps that was an issue with Malone as well because he's run up against players like this in the past. I'm curious what you think. Do you keep him for the long haul? He's on a 40 million expiring contract. Or does he not fit the timeline here? I mean, clearly it doesn't fit the timeline. I think the only question is,

do you keep him to sign him to his next deal to string it out a little longer? And I'm kind of impartial on that issue. I just don't see timeline-wise when Geoman and Brown are your most interesting players. Well, only 28. So I think the case would be that he could be a young veteran while the other guys come along. It's more so that he's going to command this, like, pretty penny very soon. And that the other guys you're expecting to come along are just such long-term projects.

Like Ben Serraff is years upon years away from being anything, if at all. Even like, we talk about Noah, like, Noah Kloni, like he's Jesus Christ on this podcast. He's pretty good, and we hope he's going to be good, but he's a project himself. Simon the zealot at this point, the best I'd say. Maybe, I don't know if I'm going to go John the Baptist. I was trying to, yeah, I mean, MPJ, it's like, I had this question that was a little depressing for me if I'm imagining I'm MPJ. Are you in a vastly different position if you don't have him if you're the Nets? Really?

Yeah. But, like, I don't think so. And it kind of got me thinking about who do you like as a potential like suitor? Who could you see across the league? I have not prepped for this. I have not thought. Like, is there a team you think that's close that you could see talking themselves into adding him that could kind of absorb some of the things that come with him?

Because the Nuggets successfully did that for a while and got out of him. And the other thing for me with the Nets that thinks that they're going to move on from him is that if three of your starters who are your most productive players are not prolific down, like they just don't drive to the basket. Like maybe Mike L. will prove that. But he's a pretty skinny, like, movement shooter guy. Yeager just got caught in.

he didn't drive the ball the first like two or three months of the season at all. So I just kind of feel like in a basketball since they don't work and I was trying to think about who could maybe potentially talk themselves in MPJ. So I think there's a lot of teams that could. He strikes me as a prime candidate for one of your forwards or maybe even a star got hurt

and we need to replace this shit on the fly. Plug and play Michael Porter Jr., you're good to go. Or your team is so struggling for space out of the gate that his shooting really makes a splash for you. It's why I keep coming back to Detroit over and over. And, you know, you can really try, plugging in John Collins there, I just think we're going to get to a point with the Pistons where come January, no one is going to be thrilled about the state of things. And we don't

even know what's going to happen with Jalen Duren yet. But there's a lot of good and interesting players on Detroit's roster that could entice the Nets if they wanted to make a pairing out of this. Yeah, Detroit, Golden State makes sense. Again, I know they sniffed around him last year. He just, the problem is he's a finishing piece as opposed to something as part of your core. But his contract suggests he needs to be a core player. And this is where you're seeing the second apron start to suppress the market of certain players. And like, I've seen a lot in this offseason going into training camps, people pushing back against the idea that second apron is doing this.

But clearly a player like Porter, like can't get to another team because other teams are being more cap conscious about going over that set amount. And so the Nets, they said explicitly Sean Marks at Media Day was like, we're not in a hurry to do so, I think because of reasons Kyle's mentioning. But also, like, where else is he going to be going to be? going to go. Next year, he could be a free agent. And honestly, the free agent market is pretty dire. Like, there really isn't anybody even on his level. It's like, Tyler Hero. Michael Porter Jr. Like, obviously Porter Jr. is a much better player. But who has the

cap space to go do that, especially as you're navigating these aprons? And so, it's a tough one. So I assume they'll just play it out. But trading for him is just like, who's going to find the matching salary to do that in the middle of the season? It's so tough now. It's very difficult. Is there, is, is there a, like, I was thinking about the way studio, situations change with TV and the movies, like from like the DVD era to now, like, where a smaller movie? I'm trying to think, was there, was there a leading star who was getting smaller movies made around them that is no long, that was converted from a leading star in a smaller movie

to like, you're not really worth this. You shift to kind of like a smaller TV. I'm trying to think of somebody who was like demoted by way of the way. Who got the big chance and then blew it? Who was like, the way the industry changed turned them into no longer. I'm just thinking of like Taylor Kitch. Like you put him in John Carter and it's like, nope, back to, back to television for you. What about like Jason Biggs because they're no longer making comedies?

Maybe. You know, I don't know if he had a long runway there. But yeah, but you're right. It does feel like a different ball game for a certain type of player. Yes. Taylor Kitch and Jason Biggs. Thank you both. Thank you both.

You're welcome. Any other guys and or things we want to talk about with the Brooklyn Nets? You know, it didn't change much about. other season, but I did think Josh Minot was a really good pickup for them to the point where I had... We're still doing this? Not only you're still doing it, down the stretch of last season, in which then that's where we're losing and trying to lose a lot, I genuinely had the thought, did they just take Josh Minot off the floor because he's too good? Because he's actually helping them too much. And I promise you, we can find the tape that supports this. We can find the

support. I just think, look, he was cast off by the Celtics. Clearly he was not part of their plans. They have a lot of supporting players. They're trying to invest time and space into. But I thought it's just one of Brooklyn's most consistent players over the course of last season. And if you want to compare him to the Treyorees, to the Drake Powell's, like, he just has popped more than those guys, frankly, who have been somewhat muted to date. Josh Minot and Noah Clowney, they're hanging off of a cliff and you have to pick which one. Well, I'm going for Minot, Justin's going for Clownie. We're going to save them both. I'm going to dive into the canyon now. You let one of them fall to their death. So you're

picking my not. I'm picking my not in part because, like, Clowny is a very interesting and fascinating player who may or may not be real in any way whatsoever. But the thought of it, I'm into. It's my fantasy. The only thing I want to mention here is that it feels like every single second year Nets player

has added five to 10 pounds of muscle and change their facial hair situation. And so I've seen a lot of speaking of my, like, for you tab, which nobody should go into. It's a lot of like, look at my demon. He's looking bigger now Just like Nolan Traori With like slightly more definition

And just like a pencil mustache It's like, I'm a demon Somebody should write something about the science Of the before and after offseason photo Because I'll see one of them like That's like moisture and lighting Also I don't want to write about the science Of Justice talking about this for you page

Which is what amount of money What amount of like Spotify bonus Would get you to like dive Revee it live like we screen mirror your phone And we go through it the pod. What amount of money would it take? Much less than you think. That's the thing. Like, we're always talking about, should we do some like group chat supplemental content? Should we do this group chat explain series? Like, we have the never ending spring of content, which is just every

week you show people your for you pages. You explain to us like why you think that's there, whatever it is. What brought you to that point? And what needs to be blurred? What percentage? Well, I'm happy to talk about if someone wants to put the money on the table. I'm willing to pony it up myself. Okay. All right. Should we move along? Number 27, the Los Angeles Clippers. A team that I was more of an optimist on before Media Day hit, I assumed that there was enough just veterans who don't care about the situation going on with Quaid just need to be playing for their next contract. And the Clippers do have a knack of finding these guys on the fringes,

defensive-minded wings, who are just contributors to winning basketball, Chris Dunn, Derek Jones Jr., Rui Hachamura, Max Struce, my guy. I'm in L.A., let's hang out, brother. They just have a lot of like solid dudes. And I was like, oh, if Darius Garland is healthy, they'll be fine, right? They won't be just the dregs of the league. Unfortunately, Media Day rolls around. Brandon Ingram is out.

Conan Niederhouser still recovering. Okay, first of all, Brandon Ingram is not just out. He has a partially torn Achilles. Yeah. And I have to say, as far as all the Media Day traditions go, the like surprise injury is by far my favorite. I don't want Brandon Ingram to be hurt, but it's just like, it's such a nuke to drop on the table for a team that's already going through such incredible turmoil. That's not a partial one that you just kind of press forward with, right?

How do you, how does your brain go out there knowing, like, I don't know. I really don't know. I just the degrees of that. We'll have to hear from a sports doctor. I don't know. The good thing is, apparently he got the surgery in May, though. So everyone knew about this except for public in May. And so, like, it's supposed to, and the fact that it's a partial tear is supposed to

take six months fewer than a full tear. And so he could be back as soon as, like, October, November, somewhere before. before the turn of the calendar year. If there's a reason for him to play. And that's the question. How many of these guys are going to get rushed back? Because in addition to him and Niederhauser, Jordan Miller is also recovering from a torn rotator cuff.

Bradley Beale has inflammation. Brother, we all have inflammation. Once you get to a certain point, that's not a real thing. So there's a lot of guys that they're going to be waiting for. Like, they just might not have the bodies. Completely. I think especially at the forward spots. You take Ingram out of that mix,

and he was kind of holding the whole thing together, at least the prospect of him, and certainly last year with having Kauai in there, as a much better version of the same thing. But without either of them, Ruri Hachamura now needs to play 45 minutes a game. Derek Jones, Jr. needs to play every second that they can possibly get from him.

Baba Miller, I guess you're just like a relevant rotation player for this team, because I don't know who else they're going to roll out there. I love Baba Miller. I think you will come to love him as well. I look forward to it, but I don't look forward to watching the Clippers play. You'll like him. I was excited about Baba Miller studying at the feet of Nicholas Batum, like a student.

Have I told you all about my superstition about Achilles? I probably comically shouldn't say this out loud. Well, now you simply have to for the sake of context. My superstition about Achilles' injuries is really ridiculous. I bought a pair of Jason Tatum's. I don't know why I like the shoes. He tore his Achilles and I never wore them. I was so super.

I was like, ugh. Don't like that. I had a DeMarcus Cousin's Pelicans shirt. This is from a long time ago before I was covering the EPA. He tore's Achilles and I stopped wearing it. It probably should go to a Goodwill. I don't know. Is that healthy?

Am I? I actually think this is very healthy. This is the one thing. Look, for us as like weekend warriors, if I can just get through my recreational sports playing life without that one injury, that's all I'm hoping for. I will die on my shield in every other way. I just don't want that.

One of my friends I hadn't talked to in a while on the phone, I was on the way. And he was like, oh, don't tear your Achilles. I was like, why would you save? You know, it's the yips. Like, just don't mention it anyway. Can't talk about it. I feel like those guys need your support then more than ever. You should be wearing it in order to bring the goodwill back for them

because you're championing to Marcus Cousin. You're saying, hey, guy, if you see me out on the streets of New Orleans, I got you. That was Kyle. But the fact they didn't get it, that's why his career got to rail from there. I think that was it. You went from Kentucky Booster to just throw into Marcus Cousins overboard. Yeah. I was going to say, other than, I don't know,

I don't know what other, I mean, Struz and Darius Garland reunited. I had that written down. Nice chemistry. 253 field goal attempts by Struts from 23, 24 on. And, yeah, Garland assisted on a lot of those. So that's one little wrinkle they can have. He's going to add it to, I just don't know what the overall direction is of the team. I mean, Keith Wogler is a pretty, yeah.

They're in hell. Like, they're going to lose all these future picks. They're even out this pick, which I believe is going to end up probably going to OKC and then they will get Toronto's pick, if I remember correctly. It's just not good. And to start all this, Justin, you laid out like the rosiest case you could possibly get for a version of the Clippers, even with Brandon Inger being a part of it when that was the thing we were considering. It started with if Darius Garland is healthy.

And history tells us that just does not happen often enough to matter in a winning way for a team like the Clippers. Which brings us to our existential question, which is, do you gut the roster to replenish some of those draft picks that you lost? or do you play through the pain? Now it's quite literally pain in the case of some of these players. What do you think? What do you guys think? Kyle, where are you on this?

Well, just thinking about what caused all of this and it was a greediness to kind of flex muscle and be like established themselves as a franchise that, let's just face it, perpetually forever, they are going to be in the shadow of the Lakers. It's never going to be undone or reverse. But I think the whole kind of mindset that drove them to make the mistakes that they made,

which I guess were driven by competitive ambition, whatever it is, hubris, I don't know. I think the only thing that could cleanse this, I think they have such a bigger problem than a basketball problem. I think that they have a generational problem in terms of like the next few years, you know, they stand to lose support in fan base. And I think that the thing that can kind of cleanse that

and started and reset it is just starting over and like going back to not have this mindset of like we're just going to buy our way to competitiveness. Like play the long game, build correctly, start over with young players. I would just, you know, offload as much as you can. Have a scrappy team. That's the only thing that I think can reset it is if they build smartly and have a team that's on the way up and people are optimistic about it because chasing the like we don't have to start over thing. It's just, but how do they do that is the big question.

I've lived in Los Angeles for a long time or used to. The only two times I could remember the Clippers ever being a thing that people wanted to see a spectacle, something that like the city got energized over. One, Lob City, the start of it, probably even before that where Blake Griffin was dunking over Mosgolf. There was just an energy to watching those games. And they built that organically other than Chris Paul, right? Yes, added Chris Paul on top of that. If anything, Chris Paul, the fact that he was like such a dower sort of lad, kind of suppressed, I think, some of the fun, because he tried to. to bring organization to it, but Chris is, I think, a little bit more of a taskmaster than what those guys were really all about.

Interesting. A Dower taskmaster. I mean, who could relate? Yeah, I don't know. It doesn't sound familiar. I don't know. How's your career going? I was just saying. Okay. That was one. The next one was after they traded Chris, and it was just all of these kind of rag-tag guys, and they just played really hard for Doc. It was the Montrez-Hareil team. It was Shea in his first year. That was, like, the team. team, I think, that everyone wanted, but they kept getting versions that were much more in contrast to the Lakers, trying to reclaim territory, trying to play that same game. I think they have been at their best trying to do that. And to that point, like, they do find guys on the fringes. They're pretty good on the margins.

And so you could say, hey, if we could trade Garland or anyone who's valuable, we'll find some guys, maybe not even in the middle of the draft because who knows what type of picks they'll get. But, like, I think they should play to their strengths at that point. And that has historically under Balmer been their strength. Yeah, I just think the circumstances are too big for solely a basketball conversation. Like, yeah, we can talk about which of these young players we like or don't, who should say and who should go. But it's like the Kauai, Paul George, think especially in retrospect, for as enticing as it was, especially for people like us who were like, oh, my God, the dizzying possibility of these two wings together and all the depth that they amassed over the years, it was soulless.

And like, what you're rebuilding is not just market share. It's not just intrigue in the way of those Lop City teams. I'm just like, can you build something here that is like worth building, frankly, that is not just like, oh, we have some interesting young players. Oh, we're bringing fans back into the building. But like, how do you create something other than from scratch that's worth investing as much time in as they're going to need to over the next six to eight years? Because whatever it's going to be, it's going to take a long time.

And so I'm willing, if I'm the clippers, to engage trades on anyone who is not Keaton-Wogler or Yannick-Kona-Neadhauser, frankly. Like those are the two guys, so I'm like, okay, I want them here. If you're interested in Darius Garland, you shouldn't feel like you need to trade him today, but you should take any call that comes your way for the Clippers. Yeah, Pina and I did a podcast not long after the ruling came down and we were talking about this very thing, which is like, if you do take this mindset that I took where I said they should start over for these reasons, how do you, who do you leverage?

It's like Garland is a guy who had dubious kind of like moving forward value because of the things you said. Like rarely healthy, smaller guard. we saw that they are like endangered increasingly so even though Dillingham we can get into that probably not but anyway small guards it's a tough time and it's like he if he's your most valuable guy and it trickles down from there it's like that's a tough spot to be in if you're trying to rip to the studs i think garland is difficult to trade but not impossible which is probably important because that's where the clippers are going to have to operate for going forward i have three teams down here. But you're right. It took a while to find a team in position to add a small

guard that doesn't already have a point guard and is willing to sacrifice the defense that Garland brings. I had the Suns down as a, you swap Janlon Green or Malawatch or a first round pick if they have any under the cushions at that point. Is green expiring? Malawatch they won't part with. Same number of years. So Garland has two years, 87 million green is it two years, but has less money on his deal, which is probably more attractive to the clippers. That's one team. I think the Sons would be interested.

The Bulls, perhaps, we're going to talk about them in a little bit. Also, the Pelicans? What the hell the pelicans have going on? They can't add Darius going on? If you can't logically arrive at a conclusion for why a team would do something, you just throw your hands up and say the Pelicans will probably do it. It's true. It also looks like the Suns, although I'm interested in the idea,

especially if J-L and Green is kind of the crux of it, I think they're just had too many picks to make it worthwhile. Malawatch interest you? Oh, very much so. I mean, if I were the clippers, I'd be interested, but I'm with Kyle. I don't think the sons are going to bail on him so fast. I just don't think so. He's only like 19, and he showed some things.

I don't see it happen. Barely had a chance to be on the floor. The Bulls are interesting, but the Bulls are, speaking of rip into the studs in terms of their culture and decision-making, they did that. I'm no longer, I'm like, they're not a team that I would put in that category of like they'll do something inexplicable. Like, they're pretty smart front office from what everything I can tell. the goodness with Garland is you can play that process out now over two years. Like with the time he has left on his deal, see if anything comes up, see if anyone needs a replacement for whatever reason, or just like gets antsy for a point guard because their young stars need something.

I think the ones that I have my eye on are more of the expiring guys. It is like the Max Struce, Derek Jones Jr., Brooke Lopez. Those are guys who make sense for other teams, who should be on teams that are competing for something more than what the Clippers will be. So maybe the like they can froth up the market by the deadline on those three in particular. And get something done, the recent history has told us those are not guys who return a first round pick. Those are guys who might get you a second, might get you a prospect to take a flyer on. Struce and Derek Jones Jr. are expiring and Ruey's on a one plus team option. So good deals, which is what they need to use their cap space space.

I honestly think the move is also in addition to getting picks, gutting your team and trying to make the caps space play, which is tough because I was looking even on the horizon within the next three years, like finding future free. agents that would even be in the realm of trying to establish a new paradigm, go LeBron, Wade, Miami, and just want to sign outright as free agents. It's like, it's tough. Those guys are all signed for multiple years, even like in Anthony Edwards. That's like, we're talking three years in the future. And it's, you mentioned the pick thing, too. It's like any more, like, unless it's like a top, the second round picks value have just gone to the toilet because of the way the college

market has changed. It's kind of got to be a first. And it's like even first round picks, it's, like, we joked about in the draft got about how the tide is just kind of creeping up. Like, even a first. Like, you got to get, like, a top 20 anymore because those guys are not coming out anymore. So the margins for, like, mining things, like, even if you claim to be somebody that, a team that does that well, it's getting harder and harder to do that. Yeah. All right.

Anything to end on a positive note the Los Angeles Clippers because they need it? Any guys indoor things? I love Chris Dunn. Sure. Chris Dunn making $6 million? I don't know how it happened. I like one of the best primitive defenders in the league. I get the deficiencies, but if you're a team that has any kind of playmaking wing or playmaking guard,

he's exactly the player I want alongside them. And so part of me is excited to see him and Keaton Wogler together, I think could be a really fun pairing. I think there's a broader question with Tailu of who do you want to start and what are the combinations you really want to see in action for this group? Because let's assume Darius Garland and Brooke Lopez are going to be the starters on day one. Maybe Niederhouser would have had a case, but he's hurt to start. start the year. We haven't even mentioned Bradley Beale yet, either. Well, we did in the sense that he is having inflammation. Right. Because it's Bradley Beal. We did mention him. You're right. But so two through four,

I think there's some negotiation as far as like who you want to play where and when. I mean, what would you guys do in terms of a starting lineup, two through four for this team? I mean, I think Don and Derek Jones, Jr., probably the successors considering that they've been with the franchise for so long. Rui obviously gives you a little bit more heft in the front court, where would you line them up? I mean, I think I would want to start Wogler just because, again, we're trying to invest in something that's a little more forward-looking. And he's going to need a lot of time to get up to NBA speed. I think it starts like the way he processes the floor. So put him in spacing, put him in flow. Let's maximize just like opportunity on the floor for him.

And then the other spot, I think is really between those two defenders for the most part. And like, I think Derek Jones might make sense just as a slightly more cross-matchable piece for what you need alongside Garland and Wogler together. And then Marie, I think, is kind of a lock there. He's just, like, too solid not to start, frankly. But Max Drus is probably in this group, too. And, like, probably has a case and a reasonable expectation that even if he's not starting, he should play some serious minutes.

Yeah, the Wogler thing is interesting because when they took him initially, my logic, like, the way I was looking at him going into that situation was, okay, there's some padding here for them to kind of take their time and slow roll it with him. But now that you're in the situation that you're in, I think Garland being here is an interesting thing because a lot of of conversation has come up about Garland developmentally the situation that he was in in Cleveland where they were really bad and they let him play through his mistakes, whereas if he had been in another situation, it's interesting to see how that would have played out. So this could end up

being a tough year for Wogler. Like he might take some lumps. He's a skinny kid. Like he's probably going to get pressured and bullied at times. And it's going to be, so if he can keep his confidence intact, you know, as long as you have good structure around him in terms of player personnel and things like that. It could end up being an advantageous thing for him because I really do think he has a lot of shooting and passing talent. Well, the clippers have great structure around Tim. Only half the staff is currently suspended. Basketball side. They have everything in place. All right. Last team on the docket for today. The Chicago Bulls number 26, and I am proud to announce that I was the low man on this team this year. One spot below both of you guys who had them at the

same spot. I just, your Bulls, they're back. I'm as shocked as anybody. Yeah. I will say this.

I was also thinking in my mind, league pass teams. I think this might be my number one. Number one. I just think there's so much here to diagnose.

I also think, like, in addition to Caleb Wilson being here and I'm going to want to watch as much as possible with him, playing in Tiago system, which is going to be fast

and frenetic. This team is going to be getting up and down every night. Now, are the game's going to be like 1.30 to like 143 probably. Yeah, that's exactly what I want

at that stage of my Lee Pass viewing. Completely. I just think I am more excited to watch this team than I have been in years. And a lot of that has to do with Caleb Wilson specifically. But a lot of it too is what you talked about,

Kyle, which is just the franchise finally kind of admitting that what was going was not working and taking a couple of steps back, even if it's not all torn down. Like, they just needed a hard look in the mirror. This feels like that kind of season. A clarifying exercise, a real core that's starting to come

together. I'm thrilled about it. There was a real Kremlin vibe with the previous Chicago Bulls administration where they were like, no corruption. It was just like everything's no, we're just deny, deny, deny. And it's like they finally, it's refreshing to see that they've started over. Now, this team is spatially weird. I mean, they went and got buddy healed, I guess, for they just desperation. They got some like bargain bin. You know, I used to love to go to Walmart and they had like the $9 computer games. Oh, sure. It'd be like in the jewel case. You go getting a little age of empire You kidding me? $9? Let's LFG. I'm just saying, but overall, this team, if you think about Giddy, I know we'll get to Giddy here in a second. If you think about him, if you think about Norm, you get buddy in there, it's like there's just a not a lot of shooting to go around and a lot of guys who are kind of physical. No, they're going to be very fun. This could be, there are times where this is a backhanded thing to say about a basketball team, but they're going to be very fun in transition. They're going to be electric because you got quarterback Giddy back there with Buzellis. Something interesting in Wilson, Something interesting, though, for me is if you look at Tiago coming into this team and what happened for the Blazers last year, is it possible that Tiago is going to look at Buzealous, who, if you compare him into a Denny Avdija, the way that his development arc, do you think that there's a...

What is that? Avdiha? Avdiha. We went to a different continent on that one. Is it Avdia? Avdia. Yeah. Adia.

There's no ha. I don't know. There can be. Look, clearly if you try, there can be. Maybe somebody corrected me on that. I don't remember at some point. I get shit wrong all the time. I think we nailed it.

Avdia. Avdija. We'll hear from somebody. No, I just wonder if you think that, if you imagine it, and I think this is really possible, he could look at Buzellis, who has been thought of a certain way, and look at the way that Avdiah played. I wonder if he could try to empower him some, like, in terms of who he's going to be as a player this coming year. That would be thrilling. I think Buzellis has been waiting for an archetype, frankly, of like, what is the channel for him that makes the most sense with his kind of, like, gangly,

driving style. And Denny is, I think we should talk about him more as someone who could be mapped onto for other wings around the league who are trying to figure out what is my lane, what can I do well. A lot of Denny's success has been like he's very, very sharp in terms of how he reads the floor as a passer, but also just the assertiveness in the driving game, which is easier said than done to just kind of like ramp up. But if Buzellas can be that kind of downhill force, that would be an incredible turn for

the Bulls. Yeah. A lot of it was just empowering Denny to bring the ball up and just ram right to the rim because he's just such a big old boy and has playing with a lot of force and just opens things up. I mean, to that point, the beginning of last season, the Blazers were basically just doing that with him and Shaden Sharp. That was their entire offense. And they're starting with the Bulls.

There aren't a lot of options, but there are already more options than that. And so maybe it's Bezellas. I do wonder there where the reps start to lean toward, especially because Giddy, he's probably going to have the ball in his hands a lot. It brings us to our existential question. So they're turning the page on virtually everyone. but there are still a few holdovers from the previous generation. There are three, I guess, that make the most sense,

not including some guys that they just brought back to fill out the rest of the bench. Noah Senge, who was a draft pick from the previous regime, has the posture of a work-from-home employee. And unfortunately... What are you trying to say? Everyone in the studio definitely stood up after that one. Patrick Williams has three years left on his contract. He's only 20.

25 years old. That can't be true. I don't know which fact I'm more astounded by. But he's still there. And then Josh Giddy obviously got the contract extension last year. Do you guys think that the next chapter will include Giddy? Because on the one hand, doesn't make a ton. I think it's $25 million a year.

His passing is obviously very useful, especially for the team. His size is useful. At the very least, he's a good rebounder. He could spark the break off of misses from the other team. He does things well. But like, do you really want him as? as a fixture of the next version of the team, I think is the big question here. I think my answer is maybe not.

And I say that not to be wishy-washy with the question, but just because the best thing that the Bulls can be with Josh Giddy right now is non-committal. Like if he works out, great. He's a part of this core. He makes sense with these guys. Let's keep it rolling. If not, they finally have enough other irons in the fire where they can just move on.

And that would be fine, too. And so I think he's in that weird place where he kind of is who he is. And I don't know if you got the Tiago Splitter quote coming out of training camp or his quote about Josh Giddy's turnovers. I don't need him to be cute. I need him to be effective. Certainly apt. Okay. I think like you want his playmaking.

You want to channel what Josh Giddy does well. Fitting that into a team structure that goes multiple rounds through the playoffs is really hard. And we've seen historically with the thunder. We've seen it just in terms of the ceilings that the bowls have run into with him at the helm and him on defense. I think he's made like nice marginal improvements in a lot of everything. areas of his game, but he's still Josh Giddy, and he comes with the same limitations that he basically always has. He's an interesting floor raiser guy that raised, he's so good to the point where you're like, okay, this is something that we could, if it's low stakes, yeah, we can sign up

for that, but then you just hit your head on a ceiling quicker than you would think based on how talented he is. And it kind of, especially with this group, this would be two young cores in a row that would, if they decide not to include him. And that kind of brings you into a question of just like, okay, it's this, it kind of goes into the Randall zone of like, this guy is good enough to bring him in, but we're going to have to figure out some really tough questions. And I think his play style just, I think we talked about this last year that he just implies a certain type of big has to play with him. I mean, I would imagine it probably need somebody that can pick and pop. Like, more than Nick Claxton, who should say is now a part of this team too.

Yeah, yeah. So, and then you need to like defensively cover him up. So that implies a certain type of athlete on the perimeter and you're like, okay, we got to find it. Just, you create a really complicated job market if you have, uh, if you have Josh Giddy, whereas you get into position in this draft to take a Caleb Wilson. I think you've kind of created a fork in the road for yourself where it's kind of like we need, and you already have Buzellis also. So if you're going to answer all these questions about Buzellas and give Caleb Wilson the open road that he needs to have, I don't think that you can do that and also have all the conditions that it would take to make Josh Giddy succeed. I think the phrase you use that really pop for me is cover up, which is a lot of what

Josh Giddy experience is, is like, I think he's gotten pretty good over the last couple of years with the Bulls at like obfuscating some of what he doesn't do as well. Like if you play fast enough, then you don't notice like in a half court offense, he kind of can't break guys down off the dribble consistently enough. His playmaking stalls out as a result, like who he can be as an engine, if you play fast enough is just kind of disguised. But that's not really addressing it. And so it's like there are elements of his game that I think he's gotten better at and there's elements of his game that think he's gotten better at hiding. And the hiding really can only take you so far. Yeah, it's more craft and feel than it is any sort of like dynamic athleticism or anything

he's going to do just like as an athlete. But the weird thing is he keeps getting better. Yeah. Like the shooting, which was always kind of a bugaboo with him, has become legitimate. I do think he's- Well, legitimate to the point of making but not being guarded. And so it's like, well, again, what is that worth? I don't, it's hard. You know who they guard Josh Giddy? Not as a shooter. I think the numbers would suggest that they should. Maybe. I think it's one of those things where, hitting the shots is clearly important and is a step in that process. But I don't know that we've seen defense

has really bend to him off the ball in a way that shows value for someone like Caleb Wilson. Everything's a step slow. It's odd because he can flow very seamlessly, but it's just like he's almost like lead-footed in a weird way, and his shot is also slow developing for that reason as well.

And so like maybe he's just a guy that just raises floors and just has a career like making sense, of a young team. Like, maybe this is just who he is. Sometimes we all have to accept our lot in life, you know? Like, maybe he is a Ricky Rubio type, you know, who just floats around. Are you finted?

Yes. Ricky Rubio played for better teams, and obviously the defense allowed him to, like, be a factor for more successful teams. But similar, like, mid-tier, past first point guard, shooter-like, but in more of a standstill, catch-and-chute sort of situation. Rubio never even got the Gitties levels of shooter, though.

I mean, I'm fond of Rubio too, but let's be. As an offensive influence, like, Ricky Rubio has tangible evidence that he could actually lead offenses that went somewhere versus like, oh, we're just going to be the 14th to 16th best offense in the league. I just think he's a much better personnel later in his life, certainly. I think it's Gitties at an interesting point. I looked this up, as you said it, about the guarder versus unguarded. This is pretty fascinating.

His guarded versus unguarded catch and shoot threes this past year, he's shot 111 unguarded at 46.8%. That's pretty good. But when he was guarded at 101, he was at 27.7. So it's kind of like we're at this point where... Sounds like they should guard more. Well, if it tilts towards like, all right, we're going to like, you know, we're not going to be just flat out daring you to shoot threes. It makes you wonder how his life changes. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about some guys and things. And let's talk about the guy I think we've all been waiting to talk about. And that's one, Caleb Wilson. And this segment, as we diagnose young Caleb, is brought to you by Sam's Club.

Because during the holidays, everyone's in a club, the coolants club, the Not Sox this year club, the Food Coma Club. But every season, there's a team that earns its way into a club nobody expected. So this segment is about the newest members of the club spotlighting a team's newest offseason edition. and we're talking about breakout candidates, and obviously, I think, Caleb fits that bill. It's going to be chaotic good. That's kind of what I said about the Bulls. It's like even though I have them ranked low, I've kind of got the arrow next. So it's like ranked low, arrow up. It's going to be wildly fun, but I think it's going to bleed off the margins at times into like what the hell did Iosish watch. But they're also going to be thrilling times because Caleb's going to be instantly one of the best and rangiest athletes in the league. I think he's going to be. going to be a highlight machine. I mean, I think he almost single-handedly justifies Justin's claim that the Bulls are going to be a great league past team, one of the best watches in the league. They're going to be so fun. They're going to be so fast. Again, that pace is fine,

and we've seen versions of the Bulls that have brought that into the equation in the past. But Caleb Wilson is dynamic in a way that I really don't remember the last Bull, who had this kind of total talent package that they were bringing to the table. It's been a minute. It's been a while. Chicago's been toiling for so long, waiting for this guy. And seeing it all kind have fallen to place. I really can't think of a single other new addition in the league that has energized my feeling and opinion around a team so much. The question is, what's the checklist look like for him in year one? Because I think everyone was excited about just watching him play defense, and that would have been enough. But then we saw the shooting success at Summer League,

and now you start to get the wild fantasies of like, oh, maybe the Kevin Garnett stuff is like legit. Maybe he could just step out and start taking these things as soon as this season. And like what's like a realistic expectation for him in year one? If I was sending like a syllabus for like goals, I would say 35% catch and shoot from three would be that would be like eyebrows across the world up. Like, okay, this is interesting because he didn't shoot a lot at North Carolina. But if you look at the optics of him, he had a pretty good like stationary mid range kind of no dribble shoot kind of thing going on. He's okay from the line. And the optics of it are not bad.

So I think that that's possible. We'll see if their offense has enough flow to get those types of shots for him. And then cleaning up the defensive technique, because if you're going to invoke the name of Kevin Garnett, I mean, you need to like, what is it, rub the coal on your, whatever. Like, it's like, don't get struck by lightning because that is like a blasphemous comp in most cases. Physically, he matches the bill there. It's kind of like Garnett's personality so interesting and it's like so unique in its own way. I just want to see him grow in that sense, like become elite.

if he can immediately come in and be a leader in that situation, Claxton will be a nice collaborator for him in that sense, because Claxton takes defense very personally and very seriously. Those are the two things that I want to see because all those other chaotic things, they're just going to organically happen for me, I think. I just want to be tempted to blaspheme in that way, not just like for a Kevin Garnett comp, but like I think Nick Claxton as a big who has like a little bit of a handoff game

and Josh Giddy as a playmaker who does set up other guys to do their best stuff. I want to know who Caleb Wilson is with the ball in his hands creating. and the kind of training wheels way to do that is put him in a slightly advantageous position on the catch and then one or two steps he makes a quick and explosive move. If he becomes that guy, we start thinking about him positionally in a totally different way, creatively in a totally different way. As far as charting the future of the Bulls, we think about them in a totally different way. Sounds like a breakout player to me, Rob.

And every breakout squad has to earn its spot. And during the holiday, Sam's Club is the club that helps you earn yours, whether you're part of the Deal Hunter's Club or the last. last minute gift givers club. Sam's Club has the name brands you want without blowing your budget. Come join us, Sam's Club. All right, any other guys and or things? You want to talk about with the Bulls? Well, on the Noah Asengay front, I do think bringing in Caleb Wilson and trading for Nick Claxton buys him some pretty invaluable time. I just don't think we're going to see like a ton, a ton of Noah Sengay. And I don't think that's a bad thing for his development. Oh, you think? I was good. Yeah,

he needs an opportunity, but he needs to not be exposed in like a high, minute backup role just yet. I think it's bad for him. I think he stinks. I've seen a little of them at Summer League and like even in year or two, he looked completely lost. He needs like he needs like years getting into some kind of NBA form and he's not there. That's why we go to Shanghai, brother. I didn't, I didn't really ever, yeah, I never really was high on him and I didn't totally understand that paper. But yeah. But I mean, look, they are a prime league pass team in a lot of ways, the entertainment value, but also you look at the front and it's like, oh, there's a lot of stuff here I like. You look at the back end of the rotation. It's like, oh, whoa, there is a,

not a lot of depth on this team. And I say that as someone who, like Leonard Miller was solid for them. I guess we'll see with Dailen Swain. It's another. It's another. It's another weird ball skills athletic guy that you're just stacking the guy. I mean, they have like 10 of them. It's just funny.

They have a type and I have a type apparently. Their backups play better than you'd expect, though. Like, they get the best out of Trey Jones and the Jalen Smiths and we'll see about Zach Collins again. Like, those guys play better with the Bulls than you would expect probably because they play such a critical role. To be clear, it's more the two, three, four stuff. Everything between point guard and center on the back line is real up in the air right now.

And it's just not going to be pretty. And that's why the bowls are here in the bottom five of our ranking, despite the fact that the high end of what they do might look really impressive and really promising. They're just not a stable NBA team yet. The other thing, holding them down from their league pass ranking, no, Stacey King passed away at 59. That was incredibly sad. He was one of my favorite broadcasters in the league.

the cookies, like, man, it's going to be such a bummer watching them and not having them there. I mean, just a real lack of exuberance on the NBA landscape broadcasting-wise right now. Like, those are the kind of voices that I think you really feel. As we're bouncing around, trying to watch all these teams, it's like, to be honest, a lot of teams I watch on mute. I never watch the Bulls on mute.

Yeah. Yeah. Anything else with the Bulls or this exercise? How are we feeling after five teams in the books? We have a long way to go, but I think we're hitting our stride. Yeah, this is the point of the exercise where like, oh, we did five teams after, Over an hour and a half.

Well, can I tease one thing that we will, I'm sure, come back to later, not to dwell too much on sunk costs as it relates to the Bulls, but the Iowa-dissume trade, I think just looks worse and worse and worse. Like, I was obviously really good for the wolves. That was clear right out of the gate. The fact that the Bulls took one look at Rob Dillingham and then gave him away, and the team that gave him away, too, just straight up cut him. Yeah, they went to catch right, and they just kind of removed their hands, like,

just let him. It was like, not interesting. Just the bad decision of holding on to Iowa as long as they did was just compounding and compounding and compounding until it just self-destructed. And Kobe White. I guess the one bright side is that it was so bad. You don't know which guys they brought on for cap reasons in order to make the money work versus guys they actually wanted to take a flyer on because Jaden Ivy didn't even make it through the half season that they had them on there. And you said that was an injustice. Yes, yes, exactly. Just absolutely abysmal why it took him that long to get to that point, but he certainly earned the firing in order to turn the page in.

Certainly. Okay. Why don't we wrap it there? That's episode one of the preseason powering, because we'll be back for five more of these starting on Wednesday. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely,

as well as everybody here at the Sycamore Studios. We will talk to you in part two next time.