The Ringer NBA Show - Preseason Power Rankings, Part 2 (feat. Bill Simmons) | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are back for Part 2 of the preseason power rankings. This time they are joined by Bill Simmons! They discuss the teams ranked 25 and 24 before the guys finish up with the teams ranked 23 through 21. (00:00) Intro (3:00) Pelicans (28:34) Grizzlies (52:40) Mavericks (1:15:09) Wizards (1:36:43) Suns And don’t forget the Group Chat guys are doing a live show on Tuesday, October 27th at the Varsity Theater in Minneapolis, MN! Buy your tickets here! Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J.Kyle Mann Guest: Bill Simmons Producers: Victoria Valencia, Isaiah Blakely, and Ben Cruz Studio Production: Kevin Cureghian, Chris Thomas, Chris Wohlers, and Jonathan Ratliff Production Supervision: Jack Wilson The Club for every holiday club. Sam’s Club. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me right before my very eyes. Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle, man. We are here in lovely Los Angeles, California, Rob's hometown. I know. Man of the people. Let me show you around. Let me tell you about L.A. So traffic. So weather. So it's a company town. I don't know if you heard. You want to go to the Ivy later? Look, I got you. I got all the spots. And by that, I mean, the 10% of the restaurants I have made it through on my exhaustive list at this point. that is growing by the day.

You gave me like a list of 20 and I don't even, do I even stay remotely where you live? No. That was impressive. No, but you asked specifically for Koreatown wrecks. And let's just say it's a robust area. There's a lot there, but you have to really be on the ground and searching for it. That's what I'm here for.

So we are here for part two of the preseason NBA power rankings. We did part one. Power! We need a drop right there. Please. How do we feel like, giving Justin the authority to have, like, a radio-style drop pad, where he could just, like, put sound effects in whenever he wants. I'm always down for a live soundboard, but, you know.

A fart? Actually, okay. I already regretted. You know, we just moved too close to the sun on that. Yeah. So, we did part one. First five teams are in the books. Part two is today, starting at number 25, and going from there, little wrinkle to today's episode, we had a special guest join us for the first two teams. Bill Simmons was in the house at the Sycamore Studios. He dropped by. to talk about the New Orleans Pelicans and the Memphis Grisseles. Well, he heard that we're going to be potting about the Pelicans. Did you say grisleys? Yeah, I've loved it toward the end.

Which is kind of like ab. They're the grisolees. I like it. They are like chewing on grisselies. They are the grisleys. I think we can adopt that, you know. We can own it. Great.

So why don't we take a break right now and get over that where Kyle and I talk this out real quickly. And Bill will be joining us. We'll catch you on another side. This episode is presented by Sam's Club. During the holidays, everyone's in a club, the last minute gift givers club, the cool aunt's club, the food coma club. Whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off.

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Let your morning change you. Discover Coffee Plus on Nispresso All right, we're back. We're joined by a special guest here for the first time in the preseason power. It's just in the office. You guys talking basketball? Wandered in off the situation. What's going on?

We're not just talking basketball. We're talking about shitty teams. So especially one of your favorite shitty teams, I would say, the New Orleans Pelicans, our number 25 team. Wow. Is that true? 25? I think there had been the most fun summer team.

I love Dumars's quote about, uh, you shouldn't trade just to trade. Yep. And so, well, you actually should trade just to trade when your team stinks and you have a bunch of pieces that don't match. That's usually when you trade. But he's pretty adamant.

Like, no panic here. We're fine. Question is, are they fine? It'd be like, if you had, like, asbestos or like an infestation or something, it's like somebody who was like, well, you don't get rid of things just to do it. Like, well, no, you have asbestos

and, like, you need to get rid of, you have bed bugs. Like, you need to get rid of some stuff. See, we say all this, but isn't trading just to trade how they got into this mess with Derek Queen in the first place? It's kind of both, but that is the Pelicans in a nutshell. So is there any hope for this team this season? We're going to get to the bad stuff in depth. There's a lot of Zion stuff.

There's a lot of what is going on with the rookies behind them or the second year players. Is there any case that this team can actually be better considering a lot of these promising players we've been hoping for for a very long time, are now mature? Look, we keep it pretty fast in loose here on group chat. we have exactly one rule and it has never trust the pelicans. That's true. I don't know why we would change now. I think to the extent that there is hope, it's like in the middle, there's some stuff here that works.

You know, Sadiq Bay bringing him back on an extension, you know, don't mind that. Herb Jones. We all like Herb Jones. Trey Murphy, absolutely. And then there's like versions of this team that are young and kind of work. And there's versions of this team that are old and I guess kind of work, but they are not copacetic at all with one another. And so what you're supposed to do with these disparate versions of the pelicans,

I really don't know. It's just like a weird band where a lot of people are playing the same instrument. And we're like, who's writing the songs? Where is what's going on with this? Like this team, but they have quality pieces that we can go through line by line. I mean, they did basically nothing other than adding Benedict Mathrim, which when they did that, I was like, that's the most Pelicans thing they could have. It just fits the vibe and the brand.

But yeah, we can get through it here. Trendon Watford? Jamal Mos. I'm just getting all of this out of the way because I feel like we're going to go in depth on Watford is like one of those in the back alleys where you asked like, really hardcore NBA fans. They're like, I like Watford. The voice goes up, you know. I think on our Sixers preview last year, I did that exact thing. I don't have the heart anymore, you know? I was doing, I did all my prep last weekend. And I actually, the math-orne thing made

more sense to me than maybe it did when I heard about it, because I just in my head, I thought they had 19 guys. So talk us through. What do you like about it? Well, they don't really have, like, a ton of wings, right, other than the starters in Bay. So it's like you can make the case. I just, I can't imagine him being happy just playing 15 minutes a game coming off the bench as a heat check guy but I was surprised they're starting five

and then basically Queen Bay, Matherin and Fears coming up the bench whatever's left with Jordan Poole DeAndre Jordan's 100 years old but it's not like they have 15 guys but the big thing is what are you getting from Zion who is now this is his eighth year

like when they do sometimes the NBA during the media day they were like Jason Tatum year 10 they had a picture of me I was like, oh, like year 10, that seems like a long time. And I thought the same thing with Zion. It's like, God damn, we've been doing this for eight years now. And I have no idea if he's a star player or not.

I'm glad you mentioned that because I brought up this stat. So since the NBA merger, which is a very long time, number one overall picks who didn't appear in the playoffs through their first seven season. There have been four of them. Two of them are the two most recent number one picks, AJ DeBanza, Cooper Flag. Sure. The other one is obviously Zion Williamson. He played in the playing game.

Didn't actually make it to the actual playoffs. You get to the fourth? Yes. Anthony Bennett. Anthony Bennett, 2013. Because he only played for like a year and a half. That's right. They moved on from quickly.

He didn't really catch on with another team. Elin Branden Joe Barry Carroll did it in year seven. Alal Kandi did it in year six. Oh, I wonder what his playoff team? Oh, it was Minnesota. That's right. He was on that one. That's right.

Pretty well Bill Wolves. But what is he doing now? What is Michael? Is he an influencer? Oh, like literally where is he? Yeah. Where is Michael? Does anyone have eyes or ears on Michael? Real estate?

I don't know. I got to say that was just a truly atrocious pick when it happened. He was 24 years old and he went to Pacific University. I really wish like we had had our whole infrastructure in place for 90s MBA, some of the decisions that were made and things that happened. Interesting that the bad drafts. We think of 13 as a bad draft and people talk about 2000 as like the worst draft. It's interesting that they, in those two scenarios that people were like, Like, let's just pick, they're like exceptionally bad first picks.

It's like interesting thinking that they would take a swing and not just go with something safe. They'd take the biggest swing possible. I mean, we've talked about the 19 draft before, but it was such a catastrophe not to get one of the top two picks that year. Remember the Knicks? They got three. I was like, oh, my God, another kick to the balls. And meanwhile, they just won the title. And you wouldn't have wanted the first two picks in this draft the way it's played out.

I don't think either of them been safe bets. Zion is so different, though, than every other player you mentioned. It's like at the time, and even in retrospect, like, the talent is undeniable. He's still an incredible score. That's what I was going to posit. I was like, Zion, he's still good. He's close to Odin and that when he plays, he shows something that is just never available. Even above and beyond, in terms of what he showed, like Odin was still a little bit of a loose shape we were trying to get our arms around.

Like, the best versions of Diane Williamson, we have seen. We've seen him on the floor. He's been really good. He's made an all-star team. He's made an all-star team. He's made a difference. It's just been a long seven years. Well, how many moments in his career have we all collectively gone?

Oh, it's happening right now. Yeah. Where it was like, this guy, here we go. This guy could be a top 15 player. And then he would just get hurt. The 2025 playing game against the Lakers. It was like, that was it. That was the moment.

We were all ready. We're just like, let's finally pull this thing together. It just, he had to leave the game. They lose it. There was a point Zion phase he had to at one point, early, like first three years of his career. Fame gun. It was like, wow, this lineup, what do we do? Right.

It's like point Zenner. They've tried him like every different version and he does well at it. The problem is it's just only lasts for so long because he gets injured or off the core issues, which again are trickling into this season. There's just always something with them. And so it brings us to an essential question, which is next season, the season after this one, is fully non-guaranteed. Finally, we have hit the end of the Zion extension.

So my question to you guys is, is Zion a pelican on July 15th? 2027, which is the guarantee date going into next season. What do you guys think? The bigger, I mean, that's a great question. The other question is, should they have traded him A, should another team have tried to trade for him? B, and I don't know which one of those questions is more interesting. Like, if you're Golden State over paying Porzingis 20 million a year, who's already hurt, like should you have, was he a dice roll, I guess, is the question for a third?

team that's in zombie land with are we a latter a team not really are we a playoff team not really is this the guy you should have rolled the dice with because i could have been talked into it the only way i'm hesitant is that zion like doesn't know how to be a part of somebody else's team and some of that's like if you're that kind of force of nature every level of basketball he's ever played has an understandably gravitated around him you put the ball in his hands he knows what to do you take it away from him he's just kind of hanging out like he can kind of pass he doesn't rebound he doesn't guard anybody. Yeah, the no rebounding is a big piece.

It's brutal. It's what's made it so hard for the Pelicans to move on with him still here. It's like he's not physically reliable enough to be an every night star, and he doesn't have the supplementary game to make anyone else that much better. And so what do you do with a player like that? Well, on the Pelican side of it, it's interesting because they have doubles of two problematic player types. It's like they have this guy who's not a five who wants, you know, you can play through him.

You can kind of pass it, but with Queen and with Zon. on. And we said that when they drafted. We're like, these two guys are kind of dissonant together. And then you have Jordan Poole and fears, which we can get to here in a minute. But I think when you said a second ago when you were talking about who he is as a player in his trade market, I think we're at an interesting point where we were talking about a pod on a pod earlier just this morning. We were talking about how we're in a market where guys who were previously considered like leading men have the cap rules have kind of changed them to the point where, you know, there's not as many of them anymore.

And Zion is an interesting case because I wrote this down. This past year, his, see, in 23, 24, he was at 30% usage. The following year, he was at 34. And this year, he was at 25% usage. 34 is high. Yeah. So I think we have reached a point where you used the word trickle a minute. And I was going to jump in and say that culture doesn't really trickle down from Zion

in terms of how you're building a team. It's like he's kind of his own guy. He's compartmentalized, but he can still really fucking score. Like he's like an ISO just like matchup nightmare. He can really score the ball. But I think we've reached a point where if you're going to trade for him, I think the idea of who he is is a lot more sober. It's like not as optimistic of like, oh, this guy's like a franchise pillar.

He's a different type of player. I think that's a big part of it. We're recording this when Trayson Langdon, his former GM, is literally throwing him under the bus as an example of what he's dealing with with Jalen Duren. And so if he has established anything in this league, he is the clear-cut guy you just do not want to build around or you do not want to even deal with. when it comes to a sticky situation with your extension.

That's one thing. And the other thing is the contract. He makes $42 million this season. And so who's taking a flyer, one, on someone who makes that much? Like the Miami Heat would have made sense before they went and got Janus, because maybe they just establish, they bring what they have established with their culture to someone like him who is clearly talented. But, like, who's doing that in the second apron era?

Like, who's even finding them matching contracts? Because the Warriors, they really have Stefan and Jimmy Butler. You'd have to trade one of them to even match that sort of salary. So it's an impossible task. So I think when he becomes non-guaranteed, if he does let go, then I could see teams jump to the fray. But for now, it's just like, I think they're just stuck together. Is it crazy to think his ultimate destiny is to be an awesome sixth man for a really good team where he just comes in? And you run seven, eight minutes.

Macadoo kind of thing. Yeah, I was thinking like when the Bulls got the former Brian Williams, Bison DeLay, and he was kind of overqualified to come up their bench, but he was perfect. and really had a big impact on one of those playoffs. And it's weird because Zion's in this, he probably will get 30 to 35 million from somebody because people won't be able to resist. But really, he should be in the 15 to 20 million range

as the super sub, kind of like Porzingis. Yeah. I mean, that's, Porzingis has basically given us the salary structure for a guy like that where it's like, man, if this guy plays all the time, it'll be awesome and he can swing 50 games a year for us, maybe help us in the playoffs. I think that's where Zion ends up.

The absorbent culture thing is really pivotal, though, there. The Celtics had this great structure where they could absorb the conditions of a Porzingis and be like, go on this given night just happened to be in the finals. He was like, oh, this guy's like one of the best players in the world, but we don't need him to be our like bedrock kind of guy. Let me ask you this question. So let's say Zion becomes a free agent. Would you rather have Zion next year or Boogie Cousins coming off the injury with the Pelicans? Boogie Cousins is another good example of this, though. It's like, wow, this guy's available now?

Yeah. With the Warriors, six-man. Six-man, but definitely didn't really put it together or really get much momentum from there. He was pretty much cooked once he got to the Warriors, but there's the time there where he could have been something more. I don't know. Like, Boogie had showed so much more.

Well, the big thing, I didn't watch enough Pelicans last year to really have an opinion on this, but how much athleticism did Zion actually lose? I was pulling some of the clip. I don't know if we're talking like GOP. I don't know what the cause is. Yeah. He had to go.

Is he on Ro? Well, I was just saying his, that's the thing they stopped playing through him, but he could still fucking like score like crazy. Like he was way too fast for big. It felt like he could get to the, his first step and his ability to get to the rim. Felt like it was still there. But the high school stuff of him just jump it over. That's gone.

But like I thought he was really good as a small ball five last year. And so that's where it's like, how do you leverage the speed he does have? And that's where, again, you're counteracting it with, but he can't defend the rim. Oh, but he doesn't rebound for us. So, like, it's just so hard to pencil him in as someone you rely on in a way that the Boogie Cousins thing makes sense, because even if Boogie had totally flamed out with the Warriors, they would have been fine. And, like, Zion needs a situation like that, but in order to have it,

he would need the epiphany to realize that he's not this guy anymore. Well, the fun part about this team is they have a lot of players I like. I thought Fiers was good last year for a young, you know, smaller guard rookie, which is really like bust your bust, you're bust, delicious at that point. We just saw it with Dillingham. It's really, we, Kyle and I were talking about this the other day. We were texting about it. Like these guys that just are D.O.A. when they come in the league, these small guards, you immediately know they don't have it. But I think Fierce has it. I thought he was good last year. And then, you know, Murphy, everybody loves Herb Jones. They have some good bench guys. So you can kind of see it. But it feels to me like more of a fantasy team than a basketball team that makes sense. Are you a queen guy? I am, but not on a team with Zion. Those two guys together makes zero sense.

But I do think queen's something. Defensively, it's never going to be there for him. And maybe Fears and Murray can't play together either. And so it's like, I thought the before and after DeJante Murray coming back was a real moment for the Pelicans, where a lot of things just kind of shored up instantly having him available, even in limited form, is pretty good. So like, I kind of understand wanting to see that through to some kind of conclusion, but where does it take you? They're not going to be competitive enough in the West.

He's not going to be enough to lift up their younger players. They just feel stuck in so many ways. Really hamstrung by two trades they shouldn't have made. One was the Murray trade, but he did get hurt. And then the McCollum pool trade is just one of the all-timers. Just the exact trade you never want to make in this second apron era of trading and expiring, who's the better player in the deal, and taking some. somebody back who's the worst player of the day and has a longer contract. Like, that's an

insane trade. And to not get a first round pick or anything, nobody does that. McCollum's known around the league is like, just a, like I use that word again. Like, he's just a can't fail like bedrock culture guy like that. And it's like you really, really need that. And it's, uh, I could imagine, even though I don't understand Joe Dumas in myriad ways, I can imagine why he would be a little cantankerous about like moving pieces. because that's all we do is talk about like just offloading their good players

that they have. I could see you at some point where he's like, screw you guys, we're not going to do it. But maybe you should do it. Maybe bringing in Jamal Mosley and handing him this mess

is not the way to fix it. Well, the scuttle butt and there's two things in the league scuttle butt when people gossip about these different teams. One is that Troy Weaver's involved in this team and he's a huge DMV guy

and always gravitates toward DMV guys, which is how you end up with Queen, how you end up with pool, all this stuff. The other one is that, the culture on this team was a classic people talking about, oh, God, those guys, they hate each other. You never know it's true or not true,

but oh, my God, you want to talk about bad chemistry last year, the Pelicans. And just a lot of whispers. And I'm always, when I hear this stuff, you know, you take it with a grain of salt. But when you keep hearing it, it's usually not a good sign. I remember the good old days when it was Ryan Anderson, who we were talking about wasn't a good locker room guy, and so 10 years later, here we are talking about someone else.

Yeah, threw him under the bus. Now it's just half the players on this. roster. Now it's the way everyone looks at Jordan Poole. Did we take inventory of Queen, or do you want to get to that? Because they're rookies. I think this is a gigantic, like, a lot is riding on what few years shows this year naturally. Sure. I'm talking about. But Queen, man, like, for the frustrations that we talk about, and I wrote about this in the draft guide that a couple years ago when we were talking about Queen, it's just like, dude, like his attention to

detail and technique, like, he has got to fix it. Like, I was just watching him come, like, he had like Zion closeout syndrome where he would like run. run. He's not as super, he has great hands. He has good feet, but he's not super fast. He doesn't jump super high. And if he doesn't pay, he has to pay attention to technique. Like, I was watching him close out on guys and he would just be standing straight up. And like, they'd just be like, okay. Like, I watched a few clips of Josh Giddy just blowing by him and just not paying attention on like the glass and things like that. Like, he's so, he's going to put that on his reel, though. I'm just saying, like, Queen just has so many, like, technical things that he has to shore up if he's

going to end up being a productive long-term player in the NBA because he just doesn't have that margin per air. It's odd how they've ended up with two guys who are basically small ball centers as like the one that they have to build around. I think this is like why Herb Jones matters so much to this team because he's the only one who wants to do the shit. And they list him as their starting center, which before I was like, oh, this is a real funny math sort of thing. They're just trying to give him a nod because actually Zion or these other guys are the actual centers. But he actually has to play and guard a lot of bigger players because these guys cannot do it. I've got a comp. I heard Andy Daly one time. The Pelicans are like Mad TV. I heard

Andy Daly tell a story one time where he said, you know Andy Daley, the comedian, really like classic character guy. He said that that show was hard to be on because everybody wanted to have catchphrases and characters and bits. And he said, nobody wanted to be the straight guy. He said, so he just did that and he got in like every sketch. To me, that's the Pelicans. That's my comp. Andy Daly to Herb Jones. This is why DeAndre Jordan has a job. Like he's the one straight guy who's like, You know what? My job here is to get Derek Queen out for a workout at 5 a.m.

And that's literally it. Like, I am functionally an assistant coach, but this team needs guidance and channeling. And you're so right about Queen's habits. Like, he's just such a spacey on-court player in a way where you would love to believe in him, but he's more fun than he is good right now. It's funny, speaking of weird analogies. They have two guys in this team that remind me of, like, if you ever had an apartment or, like, I remember about a futon, this 30 years ago for my apartment in Charlestown.

And it seemed like a great idea and we got it and didn't really have the money to then be like, oh, this was a mistake. Got to make this futon work. And it just was never comfortable. And you just kind of have to sit in it every day and go, all right. I guess this is the decision we've made. It doesn't really fit in this room. It's a little too small.

But what else are we going to do? And Queen and Zion are both like that. It's like, well, well, Zion, basketball. Double futon. Well, Zion, he's here. But these are guys you have to customize your entire offense and your identity around, but they're not going to be winning players in that. So what do you do?

All right, new content idea. As we're iterating here at the ringer. Not futon guys. We get Bill, we have this tape now. Yeah. We cut it off at Bill saying, so I bought a futon. Then we bring Van Lathen in here, and he has to guess where you're going with the analogy. And what year was?

In which Pelican it's applying to. There was a big futon run in the 90s. I don't know if it's still going. Oh, yeah. The market's robust. It's not a futon satisfaction, right? Facebook marketplace is all futons. You have guys sleeping over all the time after nights out.

You need to put him somewhere. That's the thing. It was like, oh, he's coming in. My buddy bitch is coming in. He'll sleep on the futon. But it was always a better concept in the store. And I think Queen is like that to me. Queen's like great concept in the store.

But shit, now we've got to play 82 games with them. It was great in IKEA. I do like him. Yeah. He does a lot of here. He has a stretch where he was brilliant. If he's engaged, then he had that match against Yokkut, where people were like, Jesus, like, he's coming.

It's just, he's got to just be more consistent. You have a second year guy, fears. I like him. I'm curious where he fits in, not only in the league at large, but also on this team. Is he just relegated to the six-man rolls as long as Dejante is going to be there?

I think Dejante is too good to give it up for now. I think honestly, weirdly enough with fear is the thing I'm most optimistic about is he has that weird little, like, rockback, almost like one-footed mid-range jumper that's like, okay, as far as like change of pace, ways to keep defenses off balance. He has just enough of those weapons where I'm like kind of buying into it.

But that's the kind of thing where you need to give him more of an opportunity to explore and understand how to play with his pace. Who have we seen that would with his type of body in game that's succeeded? That's the tough part is the size because it's almost like, you know, like Gordon Hayward had that kind of weird rockback jumper too. It's like bigger, Stephen Jackson, like bigger wings tend to do it. But for him it's almost a way to escape from the defense more than it is to manipulate, if that makes sense.

I really liked him. I also really liked how competitive he was. That that was the big takeaway. Like, he, you know, these rookie guards come in sometimes. Like, he was coming in like, oh, cool, I get to play SGA tonight. What's coming up with this guy? Wanted to fight everyone. Yeah.

His speed and body control and he, like, I think he can map the floor. I know that's a nerdy thing that people's eyes glaze over. But he seems like he's pretty aware of spatially, like, where his teammates are and makes creative passes. He's like a creative ball handler. really weird this team this team I wrote it down they were let's see 27th and three-pointers made 25th and attempted they were first in points in the paint so this is just a big battering ram of a team that has just kind of role confusion that's you know with everybody healthy and

everything it just doesn't seem like it's going to get any simpler you know what's weird about this team and I'm sure you did this when you did 26 to 30 but there's just four west teams that aren't going to be good yeah right and in the old days you always knew what that meant and I don't know what that means now in the tanking doesn't matter anymore era and you don't actually want to be in the last three era. So like the Pelicans were 10 and 20 in their last 30 to end this season.

And I wonder is that, is that going to foreshadow what happens with some of these bad teams where it's like, well, why do we have to tank? What are we tanking for? Let's try to win tonight. We talked about this in the previous episode of teams suppressing their win totals in order to tank.

Like the nets, some of these pacer's, they could have been a little bit better, right? I think the Pelicans, I docked them for the exact same reasons. If we're saying that institutional know-how and organizations matter, the Pelicans actually take a step back because they have the worst organization in probably modern sports. They're kind of anti-Jazz in that way. Like the jazz have like 20 back-paid wins over the last couple seasons for exactly this

reason. But you're right, the Pelicans. Well, home court's tough. They always have the worst training medical in the league. They never have a roster that makes sense. than they never have a good front office. Usually those are all obstacles. They did change their medical and training staff.

Finally. So better late than never. Hopefully it makes a difference. Zion is you're going to be shocked to hear this in the best shape of his life. We'll see if that makes a difference. He did look good. He showed up to the podium and he was felt, but he also said, I'm not where I want to be. I'm just not where I need to be where I want to be.

How do you interpret that? He said he wasn't when he wanted to be twice. It's usually too many times. That's all the whole time where literally geographically. Yeah. Is that the Eric Bloodsoe? I don't want to be here anymore, like, cryptic message out into the void? The crazy thing is, I think if it was anybody else, we would have read into it, like, what Machiavellian thing is he playing here where he wants to get to another? I think he just realized that his career is just completely been a catastrophe. Completely.

Which is a sadder outcome, I would say overall. And again, I think yet another reason why, whether it's trade or ending up, like, cutting him out right with the non-guarantee at the end of the year, like, I think everyone just has to move on. Seven years is too much time. We've had three Spider-Man movies since Zion Williamson was drafted. That's too many. Old Town Road was the number one song when Zion Williamson was drafted. We can't be doing this again one more year. It can't happen.

But he wasn't a bust, but he wasn't a success. No. That's a really weird territory to be in. And a lot of players, you're almost like in basketball reference purgatory. People go there and like, wow, look at his per 36 in 2022. It's incredible. Yeah. You know, like 50 years from now, he'll probably be.

would be appreciated more. But too bad. I don't know why a team that doesn't have anything going from wouldn't take the pole. Like, what are the Nets doing? Or is there any team with CapS base that could just spend it? What are the Nets doing? It's just a blanket question at all times. Oh, you missed that one, unfortunately.

We spent half an hour trying to figure it out. Yeah. Not quite sure. Well, I will say as a Celtic fan, had my eye and this Pelicans team for a while because of the pool expiring. Sure. Herb Jones. Maybe future.

A lot of things. Paul George. Is there some sort of Paul George? you get the pool expiring, but you really get Herb Jones, you give a pick. Like, could that be the destiny for the Seltz? I have no idea. They seem to love Paul George. We'll see how that goes.

Yeah. A lot of teams have said that thing. I like Paul George a lot. It's healthy. Yeah. The medical staff yet again. We'll see how it works out. One of the better catch and shoot guys in the league.

Paul George is good. He's stretched four. Just here to be on Tatum's team. Very clear about it. You should get to the basket four years ago? Do you have to give like this ad was paid for a disclaimer when you start talking about Paul George? Like, do you have to?

Listen, I've been open about how long it took me to talk myself in the trade, but it's been pretty easy lately. Yeah. Came from your organization. They just really like having them around. There we go. That's great. Switch on D? Yeah.

Yeah, looking good. Okay. Who's thanks? Memphis. Memphis. Oh, I'll stay for Memphis. Okay. Let's do it.

Number 24, the Memphis Grizzlies, who have so many guys. They have so many guys that, as we're recording this, they might have already had to cut one or two of them. They're about three to four deep at virtually every position. And so I want to say that there's something workable here. They're the type of team that I could see them exceeding their over-under, if only because there's just so much to work with if they get injured or whatnot. They're just guys ready for them. Having said that, I don't know if this is the year for them to make a play and run,

but I like that they're half step away from the Jah Morant, Jaron-Jackson era, has put them in such a good position so quickly. I think there's just too many kind of meh teams in the West, where if there were a little clearer runway, I would buy everything about like, oh, they could overperform, oh, they could maybe make the play in. But this is a weirdly crowded space, as we've been talking about.

Like, the top of the West is set. The middle tiers of the Western Conference are so weird, so like all lacking in their own way. And the Grizzlies are among the least of them, but also, as you say, stack to the point that I'm really worried that some of these guys who I really like just aren't going to play at all. And that's going to be the reality of the regular season. Who are the guys you really like?

that might not play at all. Like, I think some of the guys who had a chance last year and finally got, finally started showing something, Taylor Hendricks was like a cast off from the jazz and was nice, OMAX Prosper, started putting it together, had a nice run for them, but it's like, those guys aren't going to play. If Zach Eadie is here and healthy,

if Isaiah Stewart is here and playing, like there's just not going to be enough room for them. I have a feeling. I texted Zach and I was mad at him because he beat me to this. I'm buying the Grizzlies. I mean, this isn't like, but what does that mean? I could see him win in 35, 40 games.

Is that crazy? I mean, I think that's possible. We were talking about, like, going from chaos to order, I think that Boozer, I'm a broken recorder about this at this point. I just think that's who he is. He's going to come in. He doesn't have to come in and be like a crazy high production guy. He's just going to establish an orbit and insanity the way that they play.

And I think that we've seen guys that you were talking about, like, getting lost in the shuffle. I think Jalen Wells and G.D. Jackson, just like, who was a prospect at one time, who had a good rookie year based on where he was taken. and he suffered, I think, from some of the chaos of the transition of areas. I think that once their, like, order has kind of locked into place, I think that's going to be good for him. Jalen Wells, like I was saying, Cam Spencer was one of the best, he's going to benefit a ton from this. I wrote this down, he shot, let's see, in Pick and Roll, he was 41.5% spot up 45. In transition, he shot 45% off of screens, he was 52.5% from three.

This dude is lethal from three. And I think that catch and shoots, he's going to benefit and throw on top if they're really big, they're just going to pulverized people. Cedric Howard's going to benefit. I just see a net positive with this team where I think they're going to be better than people. I just hear you talking and I see the version of myself I'm trying to check. Like you're the devil on my shoulder being like pick the Grizzlies to win 40 games. I'm like, I just can't, I can't do that.

I think they're going to be annoying a shit. That's what I think. You know why that's not true what you just said? What's that? Because I am the devil on your shoulder. I fucking love this team. I'm all in. I'm all in on one team.

I'll just spoil when I do the overrun. with House and Zach, but I love this team. I think they're going to be good. Like I really think as a good young team, I think if Edie stays healthy and Jerome stays healthy, I think this could be like a 38 to 40 win team. Like they have an identity. The players make sense to me.

The boozer's gonna come in right away and be like a 19 and 10, 19 and 9, 20 and 10 night after night. I loved Coward last year. I like their young guys, but even just getting Stewart for free, It's fucking nuts. That guy was a really good bench player on a 60-win team. He's a fall through on his punches, but he's...

Yeah. But, you know, if they get... I don't know what's realistic for Edy, and I don't know if he can stay on the court. But if they can get an actual Zach Edy season, I think this team... So I was looking at the Fanduel, the conference odds, right?

And you go... And you could just go from the bottom up of who they think the worst teams are, which is basically Sacramento, Clippers, Grizzlies, Pelicans, Dallas, and Utah. I think they're going to be the best of those six. I have them over Utah on my head. That's the one that raised my eyebrow.

I feel like Utah's pretty, like... Yeah, Utah's obviously got talent. Higher end talent, I would say, versus the depth of the Grizzlies. No defense. And then I like... And honestly, I like both Utah and Memphis more than Phoenix. Yes. And I don't think Phoenix is going to be a mess.

But I thought that last year. But I think Memphis makes sense to me when I look at it. We'll see with the coach. But I think the city's going to really respond to it. Chris Vernon, who I think is always a good barometer when you talk to him about this stuff, like couldn't be more bullish. And usually he's a little like me with the Celts, like pretty realistic. I'll be like, I don't know.

But he's like, we have something with this group of guys that we have. Sneaky thing too is we were talking about somebody correcting me. It's hyperdrophy, not atrophy. when you work a muscle to failure. Last year... I'll be clear that up. Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. No, coward last year in the chaos and the absence of, like, you know, Morant, not...

It was a disaster. He got pushed into playing more point guard than he had ever played in his life, basically. So he got that experience in year one, and he's a hyper... We always talk about, like, you know, testing guys to failure and, like, can your confidence withstand that? Like, coward's one of those dudes that I think is going to come away from that experience learning a lot, And I think that this year his role is going to be a whole lot different. And I think he and Booze are together as like they can screen for each other. It can go either direction.

And I just think they're going to be a really fun duo. So I just think that he's going to come away from last season being like a more well-rounded player. And you can tell he wants to get back. He like played all of Summer League coward. And it's just like why. No, he's got a him and Murray Boyle's same thing. Like those guys clearly are going to go up a level in second year.

That's why I think Eadie and Jerome are the guys that like will be the kind of stabilitating forces for everybody else there. Stabilitating. I like that. We're innovating. Is that a new album show? We're just trying things here. Edy on track for the opener.

Ty Jerome, we're just he stand in terms of like the pageant of nerd crushes. Well, we're going to get, he's getting to drive the car this year because they don't, they're point cards. It's basically just him and Pippin, right?

I mean, Pippet's pretty great though. Yeah, but it seems like Tide Jerome starting. I think Tide Jerome will start. You got a lot of guys who could do some ball handling, Howard and Boozer and some of the other big guys. But he's the only one who's going to be operating the pick and rolls. And so if you look at his 15 games last year, which is all he played, and unfortunately they happened all toward the end of last season.

They're like incredible. Oh, yeah. It's like 26 and 3 in the per 36 minutes. Or is like he's basically Wilk combined with Magic Johnson. And it was incredible on the Cavs. And then just died in the playoffs that one year and it kind of threw everyone off the set. That's the thing. So he's really hard to place as far as how people feel about it because the premise of Tidrom is

what if a small guard just hit every tough shot he ever took? Right. When it goes, it fucking goes. And when it dries up, it's like he has absolutely nothing to offer you anymore. He got overburden in those playoffs, though, if I'm going to hit correctly, though. I think there is a sweet spot here. Like this is the right kind of team for him, right? Like a deeper team, good supporting cast, good support system in terms of a backup point guard behind him who's like similarly skilled in certain ways.

I think he's going to have a lot of cover with the Grizzlies. We didn't mention one guy that I think is important. And this happens every year in the NBA and he's the guy this year. The guy who's been expensive for a couple years. Is this Jeremy Grant's music? Oh, yeah. Oh, we totally didn't even mention him. No, it's like he's been expensive.

You write him off. It's way too much money. He's in trade rumors for three years. Somebody ends up with him. He's still like a rotation NBA guy who's been around the league. I think he averaged like 17 or 18 a game last year. And he's just like, that's 30 minutes a game. It's like, I remember Harrison Barnes got to this point at one point.

Tobias famously. In Detroit, it's like, oh, and then they have Tobias Harris. It's like, yeah, Tobias Harris isn't bad at basketball and he's going to play. If you reframe who he is, you're in the field exchange. So if you had him for 9 million a year, you'd be like, oh, and they have Jeremy Grant. But at 36, it seems like an amortress, but he's not. He's going to play real minutes for them. The problem with Grant is he started his career at one spot.

He was actually just like the bouncy center of like the process sixers. Yeah. Became the ultimate 3&D guy, thought that that was just going to be his role for the rest of his career. and now has become basically a six-man shotmaker. Like his role with the Blazers toward the end there was just to shoot. Like he really didn't rebound a ton. The defense kind of went and came in. Didn't always seem happy.

Yeah. Just what like got left on a team that was going more into the tank. And so like he's a great vet. I think he is a good score. But it's so odd to rationalize like what role is he? Because if he just plays the role that he was destined to, this 3-D guy where he was with Denver, like he'd still be pretty good at it because he has the dimension.

and he's very smart on the core. It's just, I think he's going to probably be the sixth. Well, you know the answer because you live there. How many points of game do you think he averaged last year? It was quite a bit. I have it in front of me, so you got an answer, right? 18? Yeah, it was 18.9.

And then you go back, he averaged 22 in the 21 season, 19, 20, 21. Like, they basically got him for free. And that's like, I don't know. I like this team, I think, but it's, you know, Edie can get hurt, Jerome gets hurt, the team falls apart. It's very conceivable. Well, I think, again, he has a place in this team where there's so much going on. He doesn't have to be the, like, leader of the offense in the way that the Pistons one time asked him to be,

or even the, like, lynch pin defender he was for the Nuggets. It's like he gets to just be a guy. Yeah. And as a guy, Jeremy Grant is very good. As the guy or a critical part of your team, I think he leaves you a little bit wanting. I have a Kyle question. Is Boozer clearly the rookie of your pick? Oh, God.

Or would you, or is there somebody else you think's going to have? better stats and a better season than him. You can kind of see... Because Peterson would be maybe the other one? You can see down the road how this could play out as you're going to get like a production. I could see this turning into it. Not that everything doesn't already do this,

but turning into an analytics conversation where the win... I think he's going to drive winning in a not production heavy way that's like really easy to point to where you might... Of course, DeBonza is going to be... We're going to talk about it.

He's in a really weird position where if they didn't, hadn't made the moves they made, I would have been like, yeah, DeBonza's going to average 20-something and yada, yada, I would pick him. Because Caleb would be the other one. Because I'm not allowed to bet on this, but I'm Fando. Boozer's 3 to 1.

Caleb's plus 330 and Peterson's plus 350 and DeBata's 4 to 1. He's the fourth best odds, which I was like really surprised by it because it felt like he was another one who was going to come in right away and be 17 and 8, 18 and 7, whatever. Well, there's like $212 million for Trey Young standing between him and that, I think. Yeah, that's going to... Caleb's the one. Caleb would be the wild card bet where Caleb could just come in and he might just be, he might own social media.

Like Blake's first clipper year. Oh, God. Remember he just like, as Twitter videos were kind of happening and Blake just kind of was there for three straight months? I feel like that might happen with him. Was it, was it Gallinari that he dunked on like six times in one gang and he was a rookie year? I think it was Gallagher. I think it was Gallagher.

There was a Mosgov. There was a couple of them. We're going to get one of those games from Caleb. That was the most fun I've ever had. going to non-seltic games, the Blake's first year when he just, all he wanted to do was dunk on anybody. And they would just put the ball, like,

near the shot clock to see if he could get it in. It was just, he had ups, like, there's been nobody like him. I remember driving out to L.A. during that time to move here for the first time. Yeah. And there would just be, like, kind of a buzz. This was before Twitter or anything like that. Yeah.

You would just, like, want to check in and know what he was doing. And, lo and behold, he would have dunked on someone that night that you missed it and you just felt. like you missed the biggest thing in the year. I thought you were going to say the streets were buzzed about like Al-Farukaminu. Like, oh. The chief? The baby clippers are really putting it together.

It's fun times. What's Booz's role in year one? Like, what do you want to see from him? 35 minutes again? He's going to be their hub, I think. When you were talking about Grant, I was saying, I think what's going to benefit Grant is that you're going to, your initial part of your act. I don't know that they're going to be super picking roll heavy.

That's why I don't know that that's good. That'll be a wrinkle of what they do. I don't think Thomas Cicelo wants to do that. I don't think they're. guards are going to be super pick and roll heavier depending on in that way. I think you're going to play through Boozer who can run some pick and roll himself. He can play some handoff stuff and then attack one-on-one matchups. And then that's the first part of the clock, I think, for them. That's going to be their method. And then when you get into the late part of the clock where we didn't get a great

shot, that's where having a Jeremy Grant, I think it's going to be valuable. But Boozer, I'm not going to bet against him being the central hub that drives winning until I'm not going to bet against that until I see it. I think he's going to do it because he's just got such a great foundation. I think he can get a lot better too. I was writing down just like with all these players, who are the combinations I'm most excited to see together? And they like all have Campooser in them. It's just him like the way he plays off of Zach Edie. I'm fascinated to see Isaiah Stewart. Like they could be an awesome big man like combination. I think what he could bring out in Cedric Howard in terms of making his life easier as a creator. I mean the shooting from

Camp Spencer's like all of these guys make sense with Camp Bozzer, which is not what you would think of basically any other rookie to come in the league. That's another thing I like about this team is they have different looks, which is pretty rare for a bad team. Ultimately, I think Crunchtime, they probably have Stewart with Coward, with Boozer, with Grant, and probably Jerome, which is a five-man unit with size and like some real defensive things. And the rim protection numbers on Stewart are great when he actually plays. But then they also have this E.D. Boozer lineup where it's like, we're just getting rebounds

and we're overpowering you. And we're going to be around the run. rim that I think a lot of teams are going to have trouble with. I do like that they insulated him with so many bigs, and they decided that we are going to be huge because they have Eadie, you have beef stew, you have Quentin Post, who I don't think we mentioned, Boozer. That was a fun contract. I liked how they structured that.

They really kind of stuck it to Golden State. A little restricted free agency. Yeah, it was like the rare actual, like put some thought into the RFA. Got Kareem Lopez. There's just like so many. I could just list guys for 20 minutes. this team. Is it crazy to wonder if this team can make the playoffs as soon as next year? I don't think it's

crazy at all. I really don't. Not this season, but next year. Yeah. We're too high on it. It's not even hot. We got to chill. We're so, yeah, organizational hot on them. It's crazy to think because the playoffs or play in? Because I think they could be a playing team this year. Yeah. Yeah. I do you think so. We were talking about how I was saying

that the Kings like had so much chaos with Russ. Just having a roadmap is the hardest thing to do in the NBA is to be like, okay, we have this thing that we know. is this amount of efficiency every time we come down the floor. And I feel like the Grizzlies, I'm, I'll be surprised if they don't. I mean, we're all kind of expecting it at this point where it's not even a hot take.

But I just think that that's why I think they're going to be ahead of schedule. Because I think they're going to. I think this is an important combo, though, because they're over under right now is 50. Is it? 50? I'd take the over on that. It's like 29.5, 30 range? I can't see Cambuzer being on a bad team.

I just can't see that. We have them 11th in the West in these rankings. Just outside the plan. Mavericks are right above them. So question, why do you like Phoenix more than this team? I have my head of Phoenix. Because they proved it last year, that they'll play hard at the very least. But what do we like about Phoenix?

Like they're already decimated at center. They're going to have to play the Duke kid a ton. Sure. They have Miles Bridges being just randomly thrown into this team. They lost shooting. I don't know what to expect from them. They have Jalen Green for the full year trying to play for a, basically like a bigger row.

I don't know. I have more questions about them. I think the formula is just simpler, where they have Devin Booker, who's like worlds better than anyone that's currently on this Grizzlies roster in terms of where they are today. And they had a top 10 defense last year,

which that may or may not be the case. I think we should definitely get into that. But who are the Grizzies? If they're going to make a run at the play in this season, if they're going to be a really good team pretty much out of the gate, are they, where are they above average?

Do you see them being a functional offense? Do you see them being a hard-nosed defense? I think they're going to be really, really physical. Yeah. In a way that is hard for teams to deal with during a six-weeks, six-months season. Yeah. I think it's like, oh, shit, we're playing these guys. This is going to suck.

They're going to bludgeon people. Yeah. Elbows, clotheslines, bang, jumping in your back. You just know it's going to be like a tough night. Because I even want to be like they don't have enough shooting to compliment the size. These guys were not even talking about Cedric Coward, Jalen Wells. Like, they have these guys in place to play those sorts of roles. Yeah.

We didn't even talk about Wells, really. Like before you got hurt. Yeah. It was looking like he was a possible someday All-D guy. I don't know. I like this thing. He's had great moments, but also some, like, kind of low points for Jalen Walls. I think I'm, like, hope.

I was really hoping his career would take off. I think I'm a little slightly more pessimistic on Cedric Howard than y'all might be. Just in the sense that he's already way ahead of the age curve. I think there is, like, let's just get to the biomechanics. Let's break it the fuck down. There is a stiffness to the way he moves and plays. Oh, fuck you. I'm sorry.

that makes me like wonder, okay, is he ever going to be a primary offensive option? Stiffness? Yeah, absolutely. He's got that kind of lumbering length. Like he like has the coat rack in the back, kind of like Kauai. You turn your nose up at stiffness, but the first word out of your mouth is lumbering? No, he has, it's a weird, it's a weird thing where if you watched Kauai, Kauai has the similar kind of a thing. This is the problem, like Kauai has poisoned everyone's brains into thinking that anyone can be Kauai. I'm not saying he's going to be Kauai.

Kauai is like a one of three player in NBA history to perform that way with that body type and that movement type. I'm just saying if you went and you watched the clips of Cedric Move, like he gets low with his dribble. I just think he has a lot of limb for his body type. I have real estate on Patrick Williams Island, I would like to sell you. I just doesn't feel like he's filled out even at this stage of his career and he just has such an odd trajectory. I can't think of another guy like him where he starts from such low levels and then when he hits like he gets injured and then doesn't even get to go play for. dude. He literally hasn't played high-level college ball, and he just immediately graduated to the NBA. That's the crazy thing is he nearly played with Boozer last year. I just got a little

chill thinking about that. Cam Boozer, 20 plus points a game this year, plus 420. They picked the right number. It's intriguing, but he'll be around 17 to 22 every game. He's just one of those guys. I think the question with him is, are we positive he's going to play like 35 minutes, or is he going to be in that like 28 minutes a night range just because of the I don't think that dude's ever not played most of a game in his life, right? Like since sixth grade, he's been, I just think that's what he's used to. They're going to be. I'm pro.

I'll be texting Kyle in the air with Mahoney on it. Yeah, Mahoney. Sedri Coward. Another Memphis win. 27. Every time Cedrakehauer puts up 30, I'll be thrilled to you shit about it. The coat rack himself. I think Cotrack did it again.

Triple double. To clarify, I think Cedraward is a guy. I just don't know that he's like a starring piece of this team. One other piece that we didn't mention of this team if they actually turn out to be pretty good in point guards, the deepest position in the league for available guys, like would they get a little frisky because they have some picks?

Yeah. Right? Could they be like, oh, we'll take that guy. He's available or jumping in on somebody? They have a lot to work with now. And in fact, like, they might be the model for some of these other distressed teams in terms of what they got for Jared Jackson Jr.,

what they got for Desmond Bain. Like, they have something to work with here between all of this talent we've been talking about and also all those picks that came in the door. They really have a runway to make something of this. And they went, I think, three for 27 of the last 30 and are basically the poster boys for why we're going to have this whole new system in place.

Like, they don't get enough credit. They were basically a playoff team, trade Jackson, trade bane, tank all of last season. It works out. They get boozer. And now they're in a great spot. And it was all worth it. And that's like the thing that Adam Silver is like, I don't want this happening anymore.

They wanted Boozer, too. From the Memphis people I talked to, they were giddy that it fell the way that it did. Yeah, because he's an adult whose dad was a player who isn't going to be like, I don't know, Memphis is too small. Like, he's like, I'm in, grit and grind, let's go. The Marcosol vibes are definitely there. He has that temperament, he will have that effect.

Have we talked sufficiently around your existential question? We literally named every guy in the roster. We did. But we never even said what the question was. It was who's the breakout guy? We talked about that in 20 different ways. I wanted to make sure you were satisfied with our performance. Just think how annoying

this team's going to be in second chance offense. You think about the length and fluidity and mobility and athleticism of Cedric Coward flying in. Boos or an idiot. They're just going to be annoying. I also really like Pippin.

And he's one of those guys where you're always like, why does this guy play more? I watch basketball all the time. Why isn't this guy play more than 15 20 minutes. He just hurt. Kraft. He does get hurt a bit.

I think that's the question with so many of these guys. It's just, will some of the depth resolve itself if Zach Edy doesn't stay healthy? If Isaiah Stewart doesn't stay healthy, if Scotty Pippin doesn't. Like, there's just so many of those ifs kind of stacked on top of each other that there might just be a natural pecking order that develops based on who's healthy. Do you got 20 minutes on Malta Clayton Jr. before we go here? Genuinely, yes. Is Edy, at least on first team, Omba, if he can stay healthy?

You see the center? I would still take Donovan clinging over him. I think I think clinging's way better than him. Or is it Kessler? Don't talk to Laker fans about Kessler's durability. He played five games last year. Don't bring that up. I know we joke about Zach Eady, but like he changes games.

Like he steps on the floor and he changes games. I'm not joking. He's literally when he plays, he's imposing and effective. I think the combination. He's never there. He's never there. But cleared for the start of the season, they have said, from his ankle surgery in March, hopefully that holds.

The combination of him being such an imposing force and Boozer being so savvy, working as the hub of the offense, helping to connect dots, just like helping read the floor, that's a really enticing comedy. He doesn't, Edy does not pass the Bill Simmons watching somebody run in person, feeling good about a test, a.k.a. the Greg Oden Corollary. Is that trademark? It's tough. It's proprietary.

When you see Big Men, I really pay particular attention in watching them just not sprint up and down on a fast break, but just how they run. during the course of a game, like after free throws. And he's one of those that just feels like a lot of weight. But once he gets there, what do you do with him? He makes me nervous. He's a dick in the championship game against Yukon. He was a dick?

Never forgave him for it. Yeah, he was just like talking shit. And then they won. Of course, of course you would latch on. There it is. There's the truth of the matter. All right. That's it.

That's it. I'm going to leave. Okay. Well, who's the next team? The Dallas Mavericks at 23. Oh, you're tempted. Can we rope you in? Maybe I'll say 10 minutes.

It's the trigger. Okay. I want to take a quick break and then we'll see if I can make it through here. This episode is brought to you by Sam's Club. During the holidays, everyone's in a club, the last minute gift givers club, the cool aunts club, the food coma club. Whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off. Need to get a meal on the table in under two hours? Done.

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Discover Coffee Plus on Nisprosso.com. All right. We're back. Bill has left us. Great to see him. But we're moving on in the rankings because we have so many of these teams to get through. We're only at number 23.

And that team is the Dallas Mavericks, who as we're recording this, are just growing by the day because they had Media Day the other day. Derek Lively hasn't played him forever. Apparently still grew two inches. Cooper Flagg says he's 610 now. I'll be honest, don't believe them.

I think if it was like one guy, I'd be like, oh, okay. Like, he was young, growth spurts happen at an indetermined amount of the time. Sure. The fact that multiple guys are just, like, growing like weeds, unless they're, like, giving them something, like, they're drinking their GLPs or whatever. I think they're fine. I think they're probably... Leg extension surgery. Yeah, it could be.

Go to Turkey a little bit? No, I think they're doing that in Turkey? I think they're doing a lot of stuff in Turkey. I believe that. So do you think is it a competitive thing? It's like one guy mentions that they grew over the summer and everyone else is like, well, Max Christie, I also grew this summer, you know?

It's just sucking it up. That's the thing. Who's the all-time? I mean, Tatum, they always talked about grew once he was in the league. I was trying to think of who's like the all-time, like the person who did grow because you don't really, it doesn't seem like there's ever like real tangible. KD, I think, did grow.

See, KD went about it the right way, which is you clock in at the start of your career. You just artificially say you're six-nine. and then every time someone asks you about your height, you'd be real, like, hazy about it. Well, I'm very sensitive to this subject specifically. Because of the dating apps or what? You're not very tall or what?

I'm six feet on the dot. You hear me? 15 ladies listening to group chat last night? Six feet. Okay. I will measure it right now. You pull out a tape measure. Don't even try me.

That's content. No, I wrote a news story because Anthony Davis went on the in-house New Orleans Pelicans podcast. He asked. It was like, they told me I grew. I grew, and then they listed him at another height. And then he slowly walked it back over time. He actually lost height as his career went on from that point forward.

I think it's oftentimes a psychological thing to convince players to play farther down the positional spectrum. And so perhaps this is a sign like maybe Cooper Flag might be playing a little bit more powerful. I don't know. See, I usually think about it the other way, which is guys who don't want to play center are like, yeah, I'm 6'10, not actually 7 foot. You know, I don't want to be put in that box that.

I would rather not attend. But you're right. I like that kind of Machiavellian coaching strategy of, let's just tell this guy he's six, nine now and see what happens. There's a lot more 40 chess based in your all's perspective of the league than I would have expected. I just know that like following the drafts, you're just, there's a measurement's mafia that like people are just obsessed.

I think they even go to photos and like see if people, you know, it's just kind of, this kind of thing is just famously full of like human error. I mean, from person to person, combine measurements or this or that, they're just off. So I could see it just being as simple as that. It's like the person who measured just didn't do a good job. And in-house combine measurement stuff is notoriously flawed. So I think it could just be that, honestly, at the end of the day. So what are we talking about again?

I don't know. We're talking about how tall guys are. Do the extra three to four inches change your opinion of the Dallas Mavericks? No, I don't think they do. Derek lively is still not being available. Disappointing? Three to four inches doesn't change your opinion, Rob. All right, stop.

Just stop. We're trying to do a podcast here. I don't know. What do you think I'm trying to do? There are people listening to this, you know? And they just leaned in. There are children out there for some Godforsaken reason listening to this podcast. All these people turned on the pod to listen to Bill, and here we are talking about inches.

I mean, you know, as soon as he leaves the room. Yeah. The two of you. But already getting injured. It's not just lively, although that's the most concerning one. A couple guys who are not participating in training camp. as we're recording this. I believe Morris Johnson was out,

Sontale Damma out. Just a lot of the same stuff with the Mavs. I think overall the question is considering they don't have their picks for the next couple of years here and they have every incentive to be good, do we see them taking a little bit of a leap? Year two of Cooper,

I know you've been very looking forward to what he could do in year two. Like, do you see them making ground with Kyrie and everyone back? I mean, having Kyrie back, I mean, just having sanity and order has kind of been a recurring theme of this. And that's the thing that digged you out of the basement.

So naturally we would be talking a lot about it at the bottom of the league. But we mentioned this the other day on our pod where I was saying my kind of take for the Mavs is that I think we could see an all-star or like very close fringe, you know, all-star season from Cooper Flagg. Just because I think he's going to be moved back into a role that is more comfortable for him. Last year that team just lacked half-court creation in the most, you know, obvious glaring way possible. They were awesome when those athletes got out and ran, and they could run, jump, and dunk with the best of them. But having Kyrie back, now, whether or not Kyrie's, like, auditioning,

he seems content in Dallas. Yeah. But he's in a new phase of his life. He's just content where he is and happy to be playing basketball. But he's going to make it a little bit easier for Kyrie, I think, at the simplest way. I think Kyrie has played it about as smoothly as a veteran star in his position could, which is, like, happy to be here, happy to contribute, happy to be in Dallas.

But also, I think the subtext of all that is, like this is a small guard coming off of yet another major injury who only has so much like really high level basketball left and he's shown to his credit he can be a pretty incredible mentor to young players especially in Dallas and so having him around is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination he's going to make them so much better just by being there this was one of the worst offenses in the league last season that's going to only go up but how long is that going to be okay for kairie to do and what he wants to do that's kind of the looming question i think as as far as it relates to that it's always been the crazy thing with kairi because

from the outside, you would think that he would bristle at a lot of these things, but ultimately it seems like he's one of the great hang guys in the league. Like everyone loves him, including young players. Well, I think it was always directionally where it's like, I think what he wanted was to be respected. And so when he was playing with LeBron and it was like the little brothering from LeBron, but also from the media, like the way he was characterized, I think he didn't necessarily enjoy it. But as soon as it was like, oh, I am peers with Kevin Durant. Oh, I am kind of a mentor to Luca Donchich on a team that's going to the NBA final. I was like, I think everything kind of clicked into place for him in which he just wanted to be looked at it a particular way.

And as soon as he was, he kind of is a good citizen for an NBA team. The COVID stuff, I think, also getting past that was. COVID is pretty important. The weird time for all of us. The COVID thing, the document. Look, there's a lot of stuff. He stepped in it plenty of times. But I think he's come a long way.

Well, since we're talking about Kyrie, why don't we get to our existential question, which is what's more important for Cooper Flagg's development? Is it keeping Kyrie and letting him help rear these young guys, Cooper in particular, or do you want to flip him for the future building blocks that you can get, presumably, in a Kyrie trade? I think it depends on the building blocks. And this is where you don't trade Kyrie just for the sake of it. And he does have a player option after this year. So there is time to play this entire season with him on the roster,

find a new home next summer that could be good for everybody. Like there's time to play with here. And I think if the right offer came around, sure, the building blocks for Cooper are super important. We've seen that with a lot of developing stars. The more you can get kind of a good infrastructure around them early, the more they can learn how to work with it. But I'm not trading Kyrie Irving for just anything. I think it has to be the right deal. It has to be the right offer.

It has to be the right timing. And I don't really know what that is right now. Well, I mean, the clock is ticking increasingly louder as it does for guys who are 32. Sure. Is he 32 or did he just, no, he's 34 because he missed the season. So basketball reference, you got to go by that. Yeah, the clock is ticking incredibly loud. And so you would think that that would be sooner than later.

But if you're going to get, you know, especially when you compound it with the ACL injury on the natural progression of guards. Granted, Kyrie is one of the most skilled basketball players ever. Ever. I mean, just in terms of below the rim finishing, he might be the best ball handling guard ever, honestly. So his arc might be different than other guys and that he's. not contingent on just like shooting the ball or whatever it is. All those things kind of wrap up. But I would think that to get the most bang for buck,

this would be a very short term conversation, wouldn't you think? Could be. I think there are a lot of teams who could use Kyrie clearly. And I think it's the combination of the veteran know-how, the shot making, the like time and place and score understanding of how he plays, is so sophisticated. And I think it's very easy to take for granted, but that all playoff teams need.

I just, I don't know. Like this arrangement between granted, Kyrie in a different version of the Mavericks has been so successful for them both. And so, like, such a worthwhile endeavor that I don't think anyone's, like, racing to the door right now. Right. You basically owe it to your fans to actually get him back on the court and show these two guys together, if only for half a season, because they've probably been waiting for this since Cooper has been drafted and didn't get it. They didn't get it with Anthony Davis being there as well. And so, like, I feel like this is probably a deadline conversation. But if you trade Kyrie, you also need to trade

him for more guards because he's probably the only actual point guard on the roster at this point. And so stabilizing the position is critical, not only for him, but just some of these other guys around him. As much as we love watching Cooper flag kind of be point Cooper for a while, it'd be nice if he slotted into his natural position for at least half a season at this point. Yeah, they need the ball handling if they're going to trade Kyrie. They also need the shooting. This is a team that was like 27th and 3 point rate, 26 and 3 point percentage, and just lost Clay Thompson. So it's like, Kyrie is one of their best spacing options in addition to everything else he brings to the table. This team is variant Atlanta Hawks from a couple years ago, honestly,

because if you think about you have small guard who is probably not going to be around, you think about you have like big forward who has upside as a playmaker with Jalen Johnson. The roster build reminds me of the Hawks from a couple years ago. And that's kind of where I'm comparing those two timelines and the choices that they made. You just have a lot of big forwards and they keep adding them. I mean, Al-Dama's three, four, five, probably more of a four-five. But I don't know. Those two timelines jumped out to me as interesting.

I don't know what you can glean from that in terms of how the MAV should go about their business. But that was something I was thinking about it. I think there's all these different components of that timeline where, yeah, there's the Kyrie question as it relates to Cooper Flag and the development of this roster. There's also like, what do you do with all these forwards who you have brought together to give yourself options, to explore the market on guys like PJ Washington, to insulate the roster from the injury. troubles that seem to dogg it at every turn. It's useful having all these guys, but you cannot play all these guys. And so how do you resolve that in a way that makes space for Mose Johnson when he's ready to play?

Although you could look at it a different way. And is Maasai coming from Toronto building the All Power Forward Everything lineups? Operation 6-9, Back in effect. Right. Plus Mike Schmidt also did a similar thing, prioritize size and those three-and-d-type wings. Are they just trying to do that with Matt? with the Dallas Mavericks. Are they trying to set up where everybody is that big

and maybe Cooper isn't the nominal point guard? But he's like a guy who's going to handle a lot in his future. And so it's not that big of a deal if they have a point guard. That would be the counter argument to that, but I don't know what their vision is at this stage. I just think last season hopefully kind of disabuse some of that notion. Like you want Cooper Flagg handling the ball a bit. You want him creating certainly.

But it just showed how much help he needs as far as like setting the table for everyone else. And also making his life easier. I don't want Cooper Flag taking that many pull-up jumpers all the time. I want him being put in positions to accentuate what other stars do well. And so however long Kyrie is on this team, this season is a good pilot program for if you put a shot creator with Cooper Flag, what does that do for Cooper's game? How does that open up things for Kyrie? Like what are the synergies that are going to be fun to play with for Cooper Flag

over the next decade of his career? Operation 6-9. Did you get that from Justin's Twitter suggested? I was just curious. We don't look at us for you page anymore. That's my substack, actually. Yeah, for instance. I kind of wonder, the more we were talking about Kyrie and I'm kind of thinking about

what has value to move forward and to help Cooper Flagg, obviously, you mentioned it's a glut of the same type of player, like hence the nickname of the team there that Rob gave them. But I kind of wonder if a distressed asset, like that could be like a glass half empty, glass half full guy like Derek lively could be potentially pretty valuable since he's younger. And it kind of makes me wonder if maybe if Kyrie is more, because we saw him. him at the apex of that team build in 2024 when they went to that finals. And what happened to Kyrie in that finals when he was healthy? It's kind of like, can he be the second banana on a team that's like highly,

highly competitive against a really switchy, physical, wing-heavy team? Because those are the teams that you're going to have to go through in the West. And it kind of makes me wonder what team is going to be interested in that or if it's going to be more of a like Kyrie's marketable, we'll bring it in for that reason, rather than it competitive basketball advantage. So you're wondering what is Kyrie's market value at this stage, considering what happened in the finals? Yeah, because you watched him just struggle as Lucas number two.

And I just kind of wonder, do we really see a better version of that on the horizon? If you're a team that's competitive, or would it have to be a different roster build than a, like, a Helio-Luca type team? I mean, to just bring it all the way back, I think the reason Kyrie struggled in that series and in that spot had less to do with Kyrie and more to do with, if the surrounding pieces are Derek Jones Jr., PJ, PJ, Washington, and a very young Derek lively, or Daniel Gafford, how much creative juice is there when Kyrie has to give up the ball?

It was very tilted towards him. And so it's like if he wasn't pulling a rabbit out of a hat, nothing was happening on a lot of those possessions. And so I think the ideal case for Kyrie is not that he has to carry that heavy a load. It's that he's playing on a team that has some secondary playmakers, that has some short roll bigs, because it has guys who he can dish off to and relocate and be one of the most dangerous scores in the game. Yeah.

I mean, the Detroit option is so tantalizing for this exact reason. They have all the size. They can protect him. They clearly go on a different path. We'll get to that later on here quicker than you might think in these power rankings. But there's probably going to be someone there. And I think from the Dallas side, the case for trading him is they are pretty asset poor from this point forward. The next four first round picks, they are out as a result of all the wheeling and dealing in the Luca era.

So they need talent. They have done a good job this offseason going and getting it from different sources. They're taking a lot of second, third spins on some interesting guys. You mentioned Salty Al-Dama. Zachary Rishishay is probably the interesting one. And we're in the guys and things portion of this here. So in year one of Cooper Flag, they took the photo of all the number one draft picks. It was Cooper, Kyrie, Anthony Davis.

This year they took the same photo. Only it was Cooper, Kyrie, and Zachary Riseshaye. Interesting. Whose head still seems to be spinning from this whole experience. I don't know if you all saw that clip of him. He was like, I don't know what happened. They told me I played well my first year. He was like, the league is hard.

Yeah, he seems like he's a little destabilized. Destabilitated. Your subtle French accent is better than Justin's robust Italian accent. I was very, that was very subtle. I didn't try to go into it because you always shame me when I go, Rob is so, he's so woke, you can't do accents around Rob. What's international podcast? I don't want to get into.

the history of discrimination in this country. I'm just going to say an Italian accent is a very particular choice to make, you know. I can't believe you said that. Take it back. I'm Italian. I can do that. That's how that works. I don't think that's how that works.

If you go full Mario, I don't think you can do it. It's my people. Anyway, Risha Shay is here. I like the poll considering where Dallas is at at this stage. Obviously, things did not go well with the Hawks. It really didn't seem like the environment was suited to him, like, fostering and developing because Tray Young was already throwing barbs in him as soon as he got in there. This, at the very least, he's going to have a runway to figure it out.

The problem is he makes so much as we've talked about with other guys that like it costs a lot in order to allow him that development. But he did shoot it well at this stage. Like he's 37% three point shooter. He's turning 21 in April. So he's still very young in figuring it out. There is a template to be a credible 3 and D guy. I just think it's going to need some time.

the Mavericks at this stage have the time to do it. So I like that move. I think the good news is if he is a 3-and-D guy, it doesn't have to be in a very static standstill kind of sense. Like, he can be a fluid open court player. He can be the kind of guy who you hit on a cut and connects the dot to the next spot in line. And so if he's doing those things, it's not just, okay, are you guarding your position at an elite level and hitting 38% of your three? It's like, okay, you have enough other things you're bringing to the game and to your team where it can soften some of the blow of a bad shooting night. If they can get enough of that,

I mean, it's a worthy enterprise regardless. I think with Reis de Che, you just always worry about his aggressiveness on the drive, his refusal to shoot at sometimes. He just like clams up in a way you don't want your dynamic wing players to clam up. Yeah. And the history of like number one picks being rehabilitated is not illustrious. But he's such an outlier as a number one guy though, is the thing. Like, he's probably the, like, least Ballyhoo number one pick in our lifetime.

Like, we have to go all the way back to... Certainly recent history. Like, even we talked about with Bill O'Lacandi, but, like, O'Lacandi, like, people thought he was going to be a thing. I think Richiech came in being like, well, this draft sucks. We'll just get a solid player. He hasn't lived up to that at this point, so there's still a long way to go. Like, that's what hurts.

Like, you tried to take the solid double swing, and it's like... He's going to make, if they can... keep him next season, so not this season, the season following that. On his team options, $17 million is the fourth most currently on the Mab's books for next season. So, like, the flyers cost a lot when you get picked that high. But they're not really in a position where the salary means a lot. I'm not too worried about Riesiches-Shay's salary. I'm concerned with who can he be? How is he interested in playing? And do the Mavericks have the infrastructure to channel the best version of him? And that's another area where I think

the more ball handlers the better, frankly. Yeah. And Riseshay is not going to be disabused. of any kind of like destructive idea of who he is. I never got that sense from him because he's never really been a primary on any team that I've ever watched other than like maybe like the French national teams or whatever. I don't have enough of a knowledge on that one to know for sure. So that so that would mean that the money is not going to be scary if you do audition him and he's worth keeping around. It's not like you're going to be like, oh God, we got to, you know, really back the brinks up

to this guy. There's a version of this team where you get to the second unit and it's like, Risa Shea's playing well, Najee Marshall's a downhill force, Daniel Gaffert, although he's probably going to start at the beginning of the season with Live Layout

is just like a bundle of energy. Sergio de La Rea comes on and is like wheeling and dealing. They could have a really fun open court group. I don't know that they're going to be great, but as far as putting guys in a position to succeed

who are natural athletes who do have some feel to them, I actually think the Mavs reserves could be pretty compelling. Yeah, spatially that made me a little seasick. Absolutely. It's just rattled off. Well, let's throw Santi in there and, you know, everything is fine.

There we go. Well, which of these guys is most intriguing to you guys? We named off a lot of them. We didn't name Mraz Johnson, who we could throw on here. Their number nine overall pick. We'd talk about Dustin May stepping in. Dusty May. To the coaching field from college.

He's a real straight shooter. Even just the coaching. Yeah. He's doing real coaching out there. Yeah, coaching them up. I mean, we haven't really seen someone make that jump in a while. Certainly a college coach of, like, his stature. Is the last one, B-line?

Might be. That went great. It did go great. From Michigan as well. But I think we have reason to believe that Dusty May might be slightly more adaptable and also a little more fluent in just like talking to humans who are, you can't treat like a 19 year old. Sure. Even if they are a 19 year old. Progressive, by all accounts, I consider one of the more progressive minds.

Like he at the high, at the college basketball level, obviously, punched above his weight when he was at smaller school. So he's an innovative thinker. And I think his temperament is pretty good. I mean, I don't know the B-line was like, was he was a, he was a yeller. I mean, I think that's kind of... Let me tell you a secret. They're all yellers. No yellers, really.

I mean, I think he takes people to task, but I think just guys who are kind of inherent yellers don't really work. So I think he could, on that standpoint. I mean, Brad Stevens, one of the huge ones, success story. That's been years and years and years now. But temperament-wise, it's good example. The guys that tend to flame out are the real hard drivers that try to take their rigorous structure from the college ranks to adult men who don't want anything to do with that,

even when they're rookies. And so, if Dusty May is the opposite, seems like it would be a fit. I don't know about him in terms of a tactician. Like, do people think highly of him in terms of, like, how he's scheming things up? Do you think that will be a strength?

Yeah. Yeah, I think he's considered, because the teams that he played really successful, we're going to, I'll briefly step into nerdy world here. I mean, his Florida Atlantic teams played a certain way, and then his Michigan teams played a completely different way that I think people didn't totally expect. So I think he's versatile, not stuck in his ways.

I think your point just about, like, the space, now we're just kind of talking about Dusty May. We don't have to do this forever. But I think that there's a space of self-motivation that really changes. I was just talking as like an agent about this actually, where it's like certain players sink or swim based on this sudden space that they have to kind of where your individual habits dictate whether or not you succeed or fail.

And I think in the NBA, that's probably why there's less of an appetite for like, I don't need you to scream at me like that. It's like there's expectations, but overall to put a bow on it, I think May is going to be, I think he's going to work. Also, I mean, just the power bases in college. versus the pros are so different. And I think we're isolating something really important as far as which college coaches succeed. Like that adaptability, you would think that college coaches have to be adaptable, but so many

are really not. It is systemic. It is institutional. It is like, I am here for 25 years. Who the fuck are you, even highly touted recruit to come in and question me? In the NBA, your feet are in quicksand all the time. Guys are constantly in and out of the lineup because of the length of the season. They're constantly being traded and moved around and shuffled around the lineup.

the players themselves are so much more skilled that if you do not know how to leverage the ball handlers who are waiting on the wings, you're going to drown. And so I think really the game and the professional game reward the coaches who are creative enough, who have the ingenuity, who see the bigger picture beyond like, oh, this is the way I like to play. All right. Let's move along here. Number 22, the Washington Wizards, a fascinating team.

I think this is one that I struggled with the most because if you'd asked me just in a vacuum, I would say, like, they might be pretty good playing level, but as you're doing the exercise, we find them at 22, which it's okay. It's not too bad. No, definitely better than it has been in years past. But they do have the backbone of a successful team if we're assuming that Tray Young and Anthony Davis are going to play this year and play well, which I don't know how much you can assume that. But let's just say, for argument's sake, they do have a long bench of young guys who have been playing a bit now. and then they also have AJ DeBanza the number one pick. So there's a lot to like about this team.

I guess the question is like, how soon does it all click into place? I wish I knew where to even start. Yeah. If it were just the young wizards, then yeah, we could see the coalescing around AJ DeBonsa coming in as the number one pick. That would make sense. If it were just the old wizards, I could wrap my arms around that. But trying to make sense of how those two things intersect

and who should be playing with Trey Young and Anthony Davis beyond the fact that it's just like, oh, Alex Ar's going to play because he's important. AJ DeBonce is going to play because he's important. It's like where I think you naturally start indexing for things that are not just like optimal basketball fit because the Wizards can't afford to just be the team that tries to be good this season. So are you more confused by that we'll just call for the sake of conversation a two-time

mind approach here? Like would you rather there be a clear we're young or we're going for it? I think the clarity would be nice, but I'm not saying like you should trade the number one overall pick to fit the Trey Young Anthony Davis timeline either. Like clarity is nice. Having the, like, a somewhat veteran team with guys who could pop, I get the appeal of it. I just think with these particular players, like, where I come down is, if you're the Wizards, what is your absolute top priority?

And I think your top priority has to be who makes AJ DeBonsa better and who stands in his way. And Trey Young seems like the kind of player to me who can make him better right now, who can make his life a little easier, take some of the creative responsibility off his shoulders, empower him in ways that I think will be beneficial. Anthony Davis might do that defensively, might get in his way on offense, might by being one of two bigs on the floor, clutter stuff up in a way that's counterproductive for AJ DeBonza and the Wizards. It's just like the second they get AJ, their entire frame of reference shifts.

And that perspective was the perspective that brought in Trey Young and Anthony Davis in the first place. This is an odd situation. I want to get to the like Trey and DeBonsa thing. I'm more concerned than you, I think. But it's interesting because there are a couple like templates of the way this usually plays out, which is, you know, if you're an old team, say, let's say the spurs throughout the years of that crazy run that they have with Pop and Duncan and everything. And you have this system that is

working and iterating over and over again and taking different forms. And you also have the benefit of being competitively really great. And you have the, you know, also you source talent better than anybody. You end up in these two timeline situations where you have an established thing that is not threatened by the young players because they weren't drafted super high. They're not, they don't have crazy expectations. So you can bring them along with like measured expectations and then hopefully graduate guys as they go. And then you have the other version of it where if you have a two-timeline thing, if you have a successful young core and you start importing like veteran players who are in control roles and the whole thing is kind of harmonious where this is

an odd situation where I don't know, I'd be curious to know if we agree or we disagree here. A year ago, we were very, I think we've gotten some shit for it. We were wizards optimistic, I think, where we're coming, you know, I came out of last summer league and I was like, a lot of these players kind of make sense. Like, we're moving, where at least inching forward, these guys, Kishon George, I think, is kind of, oh, he performed above expectations. I like Trey Johnson. I think he's going to fit in somewhere. They just had a lot of guys that kind of made sense. So you end up in this situation where you're bad enough to get in AJ DeBanza. But it'd be one thing if you had the out of saying like, all right, we're not, we have these older guys, but we're not committed to them. They have committed to Trey Young in a big way. A. A.D. is on the, on the, on the, on the. Did you want, go ahead.

No, no, I think you raise a really good point. I think one thing as media, we probably want things to be a bit more tidy than they always are. Not just media, but also just as us. Just humans. Just control-oriented humans. How clean is your car? Quite. Okay.

Yeah. I'm kind of a messy car guy. It's pretty sparkling. I'll be honest. I could see you having, I say this with great affectionate admiration, a serial killer bathroom. Like, just absolutely spotless. Right now it's half-tiled and it's not going on. Laundry's another area.

My clean laundry stays in like a pile that I pull from. And it doesn't always get, it doesn't always get folded. Yeah, pile guy. But I get that. If you look at a team and it doesn't really match up, like, oh, I get like being confused and thus like maybe lowering them in an exercise like this. But I find the Trey Young Anthony Davis pick and roll to be like such a clear cut backbone for any team that works. doesn't necessarily step on everything else they're building.

And if I look at the individuals that they're hoping to bring along here, Saur and AD work as a defensive duo. We'll see if one of them actually steps out and actually hits some threes. We'll see, but they could trade off and that's just like a really solid foundation for something. At the very least, we know the defense might be credible, and that's nice for any organization, let alone a team that has been dog shit at that for a very long time. And Trey Young gets a bad rap, and certainly as a personality, I could see where maybe he and AJ might step on each other eventually.

But I think the concerns about him being able to feed other players was like a three years ago thing. I actually think he made a considered effort to, like, distribute you and get guys involved before they ultimately just like tossed them aside in ways that I think are to the benefit of the rest of the Wizards young guys. I think it was like wildly overstated, to be honest. Like Trey Young, we can talk about the defense. We can talk about the contract.

We can talk about just like his general style of play. I understand caveats with all of them. This is one of the worst offensive teams in the league. They were so bad, especially in terms of their ball handling, they had no way to evaluate which young prospects on this team were even good because, like, Kishon George is handling the ball way too much. Everyone's turnovers are ratcheted up. Trey Johnson is never getting the ball in the positions he should be getting the ball.

And so putting Trey Young on this team naturally helps a lot of those things kind of fall into their natural place. He's not perfect, but he is a very good playmaker. he does give a natural sense of order pretty much everywhere he goes probably also wears out as welcome in three years. I'm okay with all of those components, but I just think he gets

a lion's share of criticism when he is only, like just point blank one of the best passers in the league. And if you have that guy on your team, I'm eager to see where it can go. I think the jumping off of what you're saying is he is going to help, but I think that the frustrations,

even if they're overstated, I do think that they're backed up with some pretty clear evidence. And I think that that's probably why you need to have a phase mindset about this. Whereas if you can come in with a flag, we were talking about just like stretching these guys or Cedric Howard's similar thing where it's like we're just going to throw through a fire hose because these guys can take it and they're going to be better for it. They're just not going to have the opportunity to do this because Trey's play style,

even though he is one of the most brilliant home run hitter passers I've ever seen. Either hand, crazy soft, all the little nerdy shit. you want to get into, the velocity, throws a super catchable ball. Like, he's probably fun to play with, but the conditions in which you're going to receive that brilliance are very narrow because I wrote this down. He just has a helio play style. Passes per 100 if you're playing with Trey Young. Now, a lot of superstars meet this box.

Check this box. Like, if you're Shay, the ball is going to not be moving around as much. Trey on the floor, this pass, or in 24, 25, it was 270 passes per 100. When he's off the floor, the ball was passed 314 times per 100 possessions. The ball moves a lot when he's not on the floor. The problem with that is he's not a catch and shoot player. He has to shoot with the ball in his hands. It's heavily lopsided towards him dribbling.

So I say that to say, that's going to create such a narrow construct for AJ that I don't think he's going to enjoy that. I think that the happiness of this season is going to rise or fall based on how much because AJ is, we're talking about Boozer having a way that he's played throughout. AJ has always been central to whatever situation he's in. And I could see this wearing him out, not just in a personal. Sure. I think the two things are going to kind of conflate.

But like, I want to see that budge. Like, I'm really compelled by AJ to Bonsai. I think he has a very strong chance to be the best player in this draft class for a stacked as it is. I'm like on pins and needles kind of watching every step he takes because he's so potentially explosive. But I want to see him be incisive, right? Like put him in specific context, take him out of his comfort zone. zone, how much of a scalpel can you be and not just a guy who is able to blow past people

and overwhelm people based on your athleticism? I want to see him make tactical advantages. And I think that's some of what you can do playing alongside someone like Trey Young, who, I mean, to be clear on Trey, like, I think the question of how you build a championship team with Trey Young might be unsolvable. Like, it just might be too much weight, too much burden, too weird a play style to make it through that many playoff rounds. But how you get to 40 wins, 50 wins, like, that feels fairly.

clear to me. And how you do it with him and AJ DeBonse? I can see how that could still work. For a while, he was printing 41 teams with the Hawks. I think he should be the training wheels. He should be the training wheels for AJ DeBonsa. The issue is only, I'm blown right past it.

The problem was the extension. And that they gave him so much and also for so many years that you, I mean there's no way AJ doesn't get to the point within this contract term that he will want more of the reins of this offense. And so that kind of brings us to the existential question because Anthony Davis also in a similar situation where he's extension eligible.

He seems like he would want one as soon as possible. Oh, yeah. Which is, let's be clear, the reason the Dallas Mavericks traded him above any other. Not just we got to turn the page, but they didn't want to be on the hook for 80's next deal. So he's eligible for four years, 276 million. Yousa. He's going into his age 33 season, 15th year in the league. I didn't realize he was that deep in his career.

that's wild. Probably because we don't see him very often over the past few years. But my question is less, will he earn it, should the wizards give it to him? And it's more so, if you're a wizards fan, do you want to see him get that? Because if he gets it, presumably things are going well. But then also, if things are going well, perhaps you've artificially capped your ceiling in the same way we talk about with Tray. It's like, we've got to figure this out later.

Even if it's like four years down the road, this is a big matzabal hanging that might encumber us from like getting a crucial piece in place. in place of him and his age 35-36 season. So if you're a whiz fan, do you want to see him extended? I think a healthy Anthony Davis is maybe one of the 20 best players in the league, and I would not touch this extension for a second. I would not even really think all that hard about it. I think it is his next deal is the potential to be so destructive to a rebuilding team

that it could invalidate the entire enterprise. You can see the dominoes that go from pen to paper from Anthony Davis to, oh, we have to trade AJ DeBonson now. And I don't want to invite any of that kind of possibility. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Well, what do you think the minimum deal he's going to agree to is? I mean, what is he, because the years are going to be the issue.

Well, there's the minimum he would agree to and the minimum he would agree to for the Wizards. And those are very different numbers, I suspect. And the crazy thing is the center market all of a sudden has become like a real seller's market. We saw Walker Kessler just getting a whole kit and caboodle for him to go to the Lakers just because there weren't a lot of centers there. We're seeing with Jalen Duren this all playing out, just the fact that a team like the Kings or someone else just would pay him that much, all of a sudden becomes more complicated. If another team, a competitive team, like for instance, maybe Detroit trades Dern, maybe they want to come calling for AD. The fact that there are openings for him, I think at least creates a leverage point where they might, someone's going to have to pay him regardless of who it is. Yeah. I had a broader thought.

This is a little bit more of a meta, like how we think about basketball over the decades kind of a thing. It's like, is the fact that Tray Young, I always use the CEO, like you have these certain types of CEOs that kind of take you through your progression as a company that like have different, like, they're not going to be the guy that gets you across to like the promise land, but they get you to the IPO. Yeah, I'm just kind of like, is the fact that Tray Young isn't an in-game solver, but he has this role of like, maybe we didn't expect him to have this. Is that a stupid way to think about like the long term like value of who a player is?

Like we were talking about Josh Giddy. It's just like he's not. I don't know. I'm just kind of trying to think about, does that need to be factored in about how we think about him in addition to all the brilliant superlatives that he has? Absolutely. I mean, this is just boiling down the floor versus ceiling debate with these players of like who raises both. And that's a very select group that is really impacting your bottom line wins and your high end wins. I just don't think Trey Young's ever going to be that guy necessarily. It would take a pretty radical reimagining of the things he does well to make him a title winning point guard in the way that we just saw like Jalen Brunson be a title winning point guard. Yeah, I think can you win a title with this guy?

Is he a 16 win player? Is a good place to start from? But then there's a whole mess of other players that are never going to get to that level. No. That teams just need to fill the rosters and just get by with. And that's totally fine as well. It's just like you just have to talk about them a little differently. It's also the burden of being a star.

It's the burden of a $200 million contract is you're held to that standard of, okay, if we're going to invest in you to this degree, if we're going to rely on you this much, what is it that you're bringing to us as an organization? What can we reasonably expect? I think it's fair to have that conversation about any star, certainly any player, but stars especially invite the skepticism of, can you win at the highest possible leverage,

highest possible levels in the highest leverage games? And Trae Young has shown some capacity to do that, but it's been a more disappointing resume otherwise. That's what this podcast is all about, the Tracy Letts players of the NBA. I love Tracy Letts. Well, I mean, there's a lot of young guys that we didn't talk about. So many.

It's down in the... talk about some guys and things, baby. Well, I think if, if Trey Young is committed to, does that mean, does that logically imply that that's a vote of pessimism for these other guys that we have yet to talk about? Who we, a year ago, we're very high on relative to their draft position. Is that driving it? Or like, is he in the way of any other guys, I guess, to make a leap forward? However we can spin it for it. Who gets the vote of no confidence in your mind if you bring in Trey Young? Well, I mean, we've, well, let's just say the handful of guys. I mean, you know, Kishon George, Bob Carrington, Trey, I mean, Will Riley kind of asserted himself towards the end of the year, too.

Kulabali is another guy that we haven't even talked about, too, who's out in just the nether world about that. I want to believe, but. What do we think about those cluster of guys? I worry more about the guys that are going to need the ball handling reps that are far enough along that haven't shown anything. And if you picked up on it, I'm talking about Bob Carrington, who isn't very good. And I think, like, probably should get moved out of the rotation here. Trey Man seems like a totally stable hand, like he could fill that void. But like a guy that Kulubali in a weird way, I think it's easier to find minutes for it because he has such a divine skill.

I don't think he's on the same level of some of these guys in terms of like future value. But like he can defend. Yeah. He's a good size defender and like they'll find places for him. I worry a little bit about Will Riley who still needs a ton more time. And he feels like the guy to worry about. But like Kishon, I feel like should be running second units, for instance. I think Trey Johnson should be a critical part.

Like if Trey Johnson shows to be better or they just need spacing a certain lineups to close with, like he should be closing with them because he's going to be. a key factor that. I think he showed enough last year to be called as that. It's like the guys who were still projects. Those seems to be the guys that Cam Whitmore's of a few years ago on the Rockets. And now he's trying to get a roster spot on the Nuggets after not getting it on the Wizards. He got kicked off the Wizards for like conduct unbecoming of a wizard. Like it was crazy.

Where's he now? He got kicked off again. He's on Denver. Yeah. Trying to make good on Denver. Right, right, right, right. I'm with you on Bob Carrington. I think he projects as a guy who needs to strive to be.

a six-seventh-man type as much as anything, right? Like a good score off the bench. That'd be a good outcome for Bub Carrington for where he started his career. Otherwise, like, I really don't think Tray Stains in the way of, like, I really think he's going to make Tray Johnson's life easier. I think, I think Kishon, again, was overtax as a ball handler for as enticed as I was by the total package of his skills. Like, I don't want him to have to do that all the time.

I want him to play with the real point guards. That'll be nice. And frankly, even though it is a credit rotation, I will be holding my Will Riley stock and I look forward to our realized gains by the, uh, by the the end of this season. Yeah, Capital City Go-Go-Go pick and roll reps, I think, are in store for Will Riley. Absolutely. But he did, he did showside. He's huge and he's pretty smooth with the ball.

He's an interesting play. I think the name we're not talking about near enough is Alex Sar, who. I have some thoughts. I thought Alex Sar took some real legitimate steps forward last season. A lot of them were rooted, though, in playing the short role game, posting up, asserting himself more inside, all things that are going to be massively more challenging with Anthony Davis on the floor. And so this is one, I thought you.

you raise a great point, Justin, about like the Trey AD pairing and pick and rules like such a good backbone for solid basketball. And do we want that at the expense of whether you think about it as like the nerdy league pass shit or the smaller player development gains or just like the

little things that make Alexar a 15% better player? Like is giving up that stuff worth the backbone of a team that is going to be like, okay. I really don't know how to parse it, especially because I was kind of bullish on what was becoming, not as a validation of his draft selection necessarily, but just as like a good

all-around player who was already kind of holding his own defensively and was starting to come into his own on offense. I saw Anthony David listed in the starting lineup as a power forward and my first thought was, oh no, we're doing this again. We're right back. But you're right because SAR is going to be forced to be the stretch option because in one of the biggest mysteries in recent NBA history, Anthony Davis never developed a credible three-point jumper, which if you watched him early on his career. You would have thought it was a natural progression. He just never got it. Maybe he just got too bulky. Maybe there's something weird about it. It just never happened. And I don't think it's going to happen at age 33. And so it is incumbent on him to be more of the stretch. Now, you draft him so high again in like a down draft. So whatever. But you draft him with the idea that like he could be some of that player that he would have some stretch to his game. And so I think it's like a good thing for him long term to like be cast in that role. But you're right. Like he had his most success being more of a center than a stretch. big and so this really forces him to do what he didn't want to do last year. It wasn't as good at last year. Yeah, Sars caught, and I compare these guys often because I just think they're really similar

play. He's caught in a similar in-between zone as Kalea Ware where it's like he's very long and we see him shoot the ball and it looks nice and it kind of, you know, the Davis-Sar kind of thing shooting-wise. There's something interesting that goes on with like the opt that you can be mechanically perfect. Like, and there's just something going on in the way, whether it's a guy watches the ball fly or they look at the rim, you know, your shooting coaches talk about this. That's a digression, but for some reason it just never connects and comes together. I feel like SARS probably going to stay in that range. And it's like, when we were coming into the draft, we're like, I could see him shooting it eventually. He was so rough and passive and timid and just

like deferring around the basket that you're right. He did make a step forward in terms of, you know, pursuing that. We need to build on that. We need to continue to go down that direction. I had it run down there, like just there's a gigantic, let's see, he shot fewer. He went from 41.2% of his offense in year one was jump shots and that went all the way down to 22.9% in year two. So that's good. That's a step in the right direction. The problem is that he has so much short mid-range chaff in his case. He's shot, I'm going to hit you with another one, 192 short mid-range jumpers and he shot 33% on those. There's like a lot of, there's a lot of him shooting these just weird push shots from like 10 feet. Like he's got to just continue on.

that path and don't regress. Don't do the AD thing. What else he got in there? You got your grocery list? That's all. Man, manifesto or Kyle Man Alman. I worked in my, I worked in my bids. I just, sorry, I've always been keeping an eye on that, like for him.

Like, don't be, he's, he falls risk of being like lukewarm offensively. Like, I think he needs to continue on the, he's, progress is good. Keep going. I just don't know how you keep going with AD there, if they're going to play a lot of minutes together. And that may depend on 80's ability to stay healthy, how you. you stagger the rotation, all those things. But a lot of what plagues Alex Tsar in terms of that mid-range offense,

which I agree with you. Like there's just stuff he needs to weed out. They had no flow to their offense. They had no playmaking. They had no adults in the room who's like, I know where players go and you go there. And it's not that Alex Sar needs to be told where to go. It's that they need some semblance of space.

And they just didn't, they had no space. They had no flow. And so asking Biggs to not settle, I think is the luxury of a team that knows what the fuck it's doing. And the Wizards were not a team that knew what they were doing. That's a great point. That's my bigger question for this team. Isn't like all these guys, like the timeline stuff?

It's can an unsurious team be a serious team? And that's young players taking the next step. But it's also like Brian Keefe is he a good enough coach to be coaching a serious team. I think that's a big question. Fascinating team, but we got to move along to our last team on the docket for today. Number 21, the Phoenix Suns. What did they do to earn that? They're among the hardest teams to talk about them, I think.

So the Suns finished eighth in the West last year. But we have them 10th this year in our rankings. Now, we could talk about the particulars there and also the fact that Mark Williams, as we go into the season, doesn't look like he's going to be around for a little while. That's a big miss at the center position. I actually hurt.

They added Miles Bridges. They're bringing Luke Knard. They bring back some of the key figures of last year. Gillespie, big part of their success last year. And so, like, you can look at him be like, they could just do the same thing again. I'm just always worried about teams with this, and which drove my cynicism for this team.

it's just like when trying hard is the number one thing on the list of positives for a team trying to recreate that again in a second season always proves difficult. And I don't see anything in addition to that where they could really hang their hat. And so that's why I had them in around this range. I think the just try to do it again strategy when your whole success was based off of overachieving, as you mentioned, is just it's asking a lot. And it's especially asking a lot where, yes, there is a decent amount of like talent in the door, as you alluded to JV as opposed to the talent that's out the door,

but the nature of the team has shifted completely. Like there's going to be so much more Jalen Green this season than there was last year. There's going to be an awful lot of Luke Canard this season than there was last year. With Marco Williams out, you're tilting even more towards the bench guys, which I like Oso I Godaro, I like Moloch, I like the potential there. Yeah, but let's not pretend that it's like the backbone of what was a top 10 defense last year again and again and again. You can do it once, you can pull it off, you can get everyone a line just so playing super hard and maximizing everything you do. I just think there's going to be like a little bit of their soul that's changing with them this year.

And I don't know where they're going to make up that ground because they just don't have the offensive firepower to do it. Yeah, there's a little bit of the ripple effect of the Pacers buy in and sort of, you know, odd comes in and naturally see this happen. I mean, their whole approach was very noticeably bear hug, bear hugging and attacking and being disruptive at the point of attack. They were one of the most successful. They turned over lead ball handlers and pick and roll more than just about any team in the league. I think they were third overall. You're talking about overachieving and you think like, well, if you're overachieving, there's some edge that you found that helped you bridge that gap between what people expected. And I think people are going to expect that a little more this year.

I don't think they're going to surprise anybody. And I do, like you said, I think they probably did take a bite out of their identity. Where did you have the sons on the list? You said, you had them at 10? No, I had them, well, in the West. Yeah, I had them 20. Rob had them a little bit lower. I had them in 22.

22. How'd they end up at 10 if we both all three had them in 20? Well, 20 overall. Oh, okay. We're at 21. I was thinking you said they came in. That wouldn't make any sense, right? Okay.

Yeah, I think it's, again, it's like I get why under the circumstances they want to keep all the guys who are free agents, good bit of business to do that. but then reaching for someone like Miles Bridges in particular, who is just the epitome of a player who from a distance you might think would fit this, but is like all sizzle no stake when it comes to his habits, just like does not comply with the Dylan Brooks version of this team that was kind of like their identity, like more than anything. Coming off of probably the worst season of his career,

at least recently after he had a little bit of a moment, he's just a very selfish him first score. and I get wanting to juice the offense because that is where the big concern is there, especially because Dylan Brooks. I don't think he's going to be a go-to-scorer his entire run with Phoenix, but maybe not. I mean, he looked at incredible.

So maybe he just found the magic elixir. But I get the pull for bridges, but you're right. Like in practice, like he seems to cut against everything that they stood for last year. I've been big on this, like, thinking about basketball in these terms lately of just like electricity. Like some players are conductors and some players are insulators. and I think that Miles is an insulator. And I think that if you think about what needs to happen with this team, clearly they had on their mindset,

if you go and look at the players who were the most productive against them and just kind of lit their asses up, it was big handling forwards. Granted, those players are a problem for everyone, but they were especially a problem for the sons. To me, everybody's talked a lot about, like, the Michigan State thing. You don't want to be overly simple. I'm sure that was a factor, who knows how much.

But then they went and you assume that, you assume that, Miles could guard up and defend those types of players. That might have been the mindset. And then Co-A Pete, the other guy, the draft pick that they brought in, they brought in a couple of these. Pete is a lot more of a passer than Miles. We'll see how much he plays. But I guess that was their mindset coming into the season.

And then you hope that maybe Mile Watch takes a step forward, but he was so limited. Is it like too much to assume that he's going to take a major leap this year? Well, I think the big question is Devin Booker, because last year felt at times like there was way too much on his plate. and I don't think they really took a lot off going into this season. I mean, they brought in new names. Jalen Green presumably will be there from the start,

and so they'll have a full year of him. Another guy who will complicate the events of success that they really hung their hat on. But it just feels like as time goes on, Booker really is kind of being asked to do more than even his lofty standards going into this, what, third era, fourth era, or whatever you want to call it of his career,

would suggest that he could do. And so my big question just overall is like where we are with Booker overall. He's going into year 12. Changed his number, which is a cool factoid I'm just going to throw in there. What do you change it to? 15. He was at 1. Yeah. What does that say about him, do you think? How could we compare it to the Kobe situation?

Let's not. It's more of a middle of the road sort of guy. You know, he doesn't want to stand out. He's not number one. He's just like an average. He drives a Subaru. He just wants to get to work and do his business. I like that. Pole Star would be the more like subtle. So do we feel like he has exceeded expectations?

Because this is a guy who made a first team all-MBA recently. That went to a finals, was up in the finals, and perhaps could have had his entire career changed had they just won that series. Or do we feel a little bit more mixed, a little bit more disappointed at where he's at right now? I think he's exceeded expectations. Okay. He's the 13th pick in the draft. from that point of view,

but I guess more from like when he reached a certain level. Yeah. This is a guy who's a critical part of a vaunted team USA. Do we feel like he hasn't like gotten to that level? Because I think a lot of people, maybe it's just marketing, maybe it's just like his popularity. Like people expect him to be like an all-MBA guy year and year out

and regularly seems like he falls short. I think some of that's just because he looks and sounds and feels like a shooting guard who should be one of the best players in the world. and is just a very, very good player. And like a clear star, unimpeachable, as you said, like first team All-MBA is, that's a career achievement. Yeah. Another All-MBA team, five All-Star selections,

the two gold medals as a starter on those teams. Like, those are real things. And to be honest, if you make at the end of this deal that he just inked, over $500 million in career earnings, like, I don't know what your expectations were if they weren't exceeded by that. Who's walking down the street that can call that man a failure? That's what I'm saying. And have you seen his archaverage?

Contexti style. Honestly, that's one of the better watches. He's got great taste. Yeah. Or a great stylist, a great interior decorator, although it's kind of sparse

not that I think about it, but very stylish. Yeah, man. He has been like downright metronomic from ages 22 to 29 in terms of his productivity. Grin, he never quite shot it as well from three as we would have hoped.

But that's a nitpick. And do we begrudge him staying on through different eras? I mean, he's been through like a hopeless son's era to they built something to he stuck around and now we're just like, why aren't, you know, is it, is it fair that we're, that we're pulling him into a total legacy conversation because he hasn't really ever fallen off? He's been pretty steady throughout the way, the whole way, and he's capable

of being adaptive. Like you were talking about the conductor-insulator thing, like that team USA thing is a great example. That's an aisle-in-law for sure. He's possible, he's capable of, you know, stepping in line with other great players. Well, if I was the play devil's advocate, I would say your career decisions do kind of make your career at a certain stage when you get to a level where you could pick where you want to go. And he clearly chose he wanted to be a one-team sort of guy, unless like something happens later on in his career. I get the sense that like Tiniusay used him best because he isn't destined to be the number one offensive engine does everything, tough shot maker that he's ultimately become. And perhaps I lament the fact that he didn't go

elsewhere, especially after seeing the success he had specifically playing next to Chris Paul. Chris Paul's a different animal. Like, no one, there's no other Chris Paul coming up there. And, like, having an organizer there was so essential to that entire run that they had there. But, like, having another guy, I think a lot about Anthony Davis next to LeBron, another outlier situation. But, like, Anthony Davis being the number one talent, but LeBron being the most important figure of that team and that finals run, like, that feels like the optimal usage of him. But he's bound himself to a situation where that is almost impossible to happen. Well, I mean, he tried it with KD.

I think they were just a little too similar in terms of the. their shot profile and the way they attack the game. He needed the discrepancy of like the way he sees it versus Chris Paul sees it. And like I think that contrast really brought out something special for those sons. And that's the opportunity is still there. It's hard to see in Phoenix because they don't have a lot of pieces to tether together to get another star. It's something we talk about on this podcast all the time with their kind of trajectory. But that's not really Devin Booker's fault.

Like it's not his fault that the sons traded so many picks for Kevin Durant. It's not his fault that they've mismanaged various. contract negotiations. And so much as he pushed for it. I mean, he's allowed to push. Yeah. Like, that's not, like, you can push, you can influence. Like, I just don't really hold that around his neck as something to like, oh, we should

think of Devin Booker differently because he played with Kevin Durant. I do think at his level, I do think you get to, it's almost like an actor or director that gets to a certain point and they could choose their projects. Yeah. He chose to take the money. And I think a lot of players would do the similar thing in that situation, especially because a lot of guys just assume they'll take the money and then they'll go elsewhere. That seemed to be his era of player.

But I think like the Schroeder ones, the ones that can like navigate an industry in the way that like anybody can in their career, typically can plot against that, can see that come in and make a different choice. And so I guess it's not the player so much as the choice is I'm disappointed. And especially because like I like so much about him and the fact that he came from like the middle of the draft to be to basically become one of the foremost players of his generation. it's just like, it's a bummer that they ask him to do so much because I feel like there's another level to him. He's still young enough to be playing like very high level basketball. I just don't know where it comes.

I just think there's a lot to respect about the way the Suns played last season. And if this season is going to be another version of the same, we're a little pessimistic about that. But like being a hard-nosed committed team that is locked in on the details, that is playing the scouting report and then taking whatever Devin Booker and Jalen Green can give you, like I think there's absolutely a dignity in that. And to collect a huge paycheck while you, you do it. I really just don't have any problem with players

prioritizing that way in the same way that like, if you're Jalen Brunson and you want to leave money on the table, you can do that too. If you're Victor Wenamahama and you want to leave money on the table, sure, go that route. There's no guarantee that way either. Like it worked out for Brunson. It doesn't work out for everybody. Like I think for a lot of guys taking the checks when it comes does make sense. Yeah. Could it be as simple as just like he has never really had the like the polarity in the, in the who he is playing with and how productive they are

and where on the floor they are productive. Because the original vision was way back. It was DeAndre Ait. And it was like those two guys. And if you think about since then, even, you know, they were, one of the major things about he and Chris Paul was that they got DeAndre Aten to, honestly, we're going to look back and be like that was a basketball miracle. Because if you look back in those playoffs about the way that they got him to tow the line

and, you know, salute and say, yes, sir, and be where he was supposed to be. They got a lot out of him. Other than that, he hasn't really played with a super productive player on that side of the floor. and that's kind of wild. Like, not one other than Aiton. Is the best player he's played with in his entire NBA career other than Chris Paul, other than Kevin Durant? Is it McHale Bridges?

Oh, baby. Like, that's a tough tumble down the list, even for someone as effective and useful as McAil. So Dragon Bender doesn't get a nod? Somehow I don't think so. Maurice Chris, no. Maurice Chris? Maris Chris?

I thought it was Marquise. Marquise. You're right, it is Marquise Chris. Is it his brother, Morris? Yeah, it's his brother, Morris. Well, here's the thing. To the larger framing of this conversation, so much of it is just about, like, where is your point of reference?

What are you judging these guys based off of it? So I was looking at other players who made two all-NBA teams and at least like five-ish All-Star Games or more. And it's guys who we would be having these kinds of debates about. Alonzo Morning, Vince Carter, Darren Williams, like, guys who maybe had some injury troubles that derailed their career. or weird free agent decisions or trade decisions or got into it with teammates or coaches or whatever. It's like they'll have something kind of hanging over them.

And I think what separates Booker is one, that trip to the finals is like a real thing that is going to be a nice kind of piece of his resume even though they didn't win. And then those two Olympic gold medals, I think is pretty real. It's not the NBA, but it's adjacent enough. And it's like, I think proving yourself in that way with that crowd is a substantial a basketball thing as you can put down. So someone call him Mitch Richmond with better marketing? Oh, for fuck's sake.

Now I see where this question came. I don't support it, but I definitely, I thought it was funny. But also Mitch Richmond rules. What are we talking about? Mitch Richmond's in the Hall of Fame, right? Don't you, don't talk badly, if you talk badly about Mitch Richmond or Glenn Rice or any of these guys, I'm just not here for it. Glenn Rice, my God. He wishes he was a big dog.

It's funny. That's Robinson. Well, I got thinking of it. What did you say? Rice. Come on. We're just blowing it. Can you tell we're five hours in the podcast? You mentioned Alonzo, and I was thinking I was like,

Moulonzo did win the title, but it makes you think about where he was in his career. He was a backup center at that moment. The Suns did blow it the following year after the finals. It was a pretty memorable, like, pretty bad flameout, considering they were very good in the regular season. Oh, it detonated the team. Yeah. Well, yeah, the Luca ascension just kind of like, that was the perfect.

perfect awful storm for them. And yeah, he gave them an existential wake-up call in a way that was reasonable at the time. But I just think, I don't know, mentioning the heat, it's like, Booker is kind of a heat-y type guy. And it was like, if they had committed so much money to Janus, it's like, you just gave me a vision of like, man, I could, I'm not trying to, sorry Sons fans, but that really resonated. Worse case, he has a nice house with an open concept, so you could do a lot worse. That's right. He had a whole candy area. Did you see that?

Like, where he would, you know, he, like, there was like candy jar. and they're playing games. Just in case DeAndre Aiden came over? You got to entertain the kids. All right. Well, any other guys or things here? Because there's actually one guy I have eyed as a potential breakout, which brings us to our sponsor's segment.

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but in his second year, Malwatch, what are we thinking? It seems like there's a clear path for him to be a contributor with Mark Williams out. You reach a point, I think, in your, you reach an age, I think, where you stop saying not socks. A certain quality a sock is worth getting. You buy a quality sock, you're set for a while. You're in a bad spot. You're cycling through just low-end socks. You buy a nice sock? I've been there.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just think that the Sun's problem is that they have a lot of socks on this roster. And they need something with a little more to it. Or a lot of sucks. It sucks. It sucks. No, this is a perfectly fine team.

But, like, what they need, I think, more than anything, and maybe what they're reaching for with Miles Bridges and some of these other moves is like, where's your pop come from? Right? Like where is some standout athleticism? Where's some difference making defense? And they wanted that with Mark Williams,

but he's only kind of that and he's only kind of available. And Malwatch, like, for all accounts coming out of training camp and with the Suns, like people are really bullish on who he can be as a pick and roll player. The emerging chemistry, obviously with Devin Booker and Jalen Green, but also coming off the bench, someone like Luke Kinnard, who is a different. sort of ball handler and shooter combo than they've had in the past with all due respect to, you know, your Grayson Allen types and whatnot. But I think there's just a lot of players on the Sun's roster

who can help prop up Malawatch as he kind of submits himself as a pro. But from there, it's, it's on him to figure out how to be a high level player, figure out how to process the game to keep up week to week and with all the kind of dizzying string of opponents that these guys have to deal with. Yeah, I mean, I can't sit here and act like there, there are no receipts that can be like pointed to for me with Malawwatch. because I was worried about him as a mover in open space. I was worried about him, like, credibility as a shooter, a lot of different things. He walked, I mean, he answered a lot of those and, you know, address a lot of those concerns.

And I just think that he's ultimately going to be a better player than Mark Williams. I think he's kind of already shown signs. And he's more dynamic. Like, I think eventually if he's going to be like a Brooke Lopez, like one and a half, two, and well, Brooke got pretty up there with the three-point attempts. I just think he's going to be credible in that sense. And he is gigantic. He's, like, even bigger.

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Come join us, Sam's Club. All right, any other guys or things perhaps that you guys want to hit with the Phoenix Suns before we get out of here? I feel like in the spirit of Malwatch as well, let's just play Rashir Fleming. And I think he might play by default because they don't have many forwards who can occupy that spot. But they just need to be chasing after those like higher upside give you something surprising kind of elements of their rotation. I think especially with where they might met out offensively and defensively. That's probably more along the lines of like creator talent though, right? And then, you know, if Fleming can take a step forward, speaking of what we were talking about earlier,

about how they just are getting torched by mobile, big guys who can, you know, the KDs, the Lukas, even MPJs, those guys, if they can, between Fleming, Pete, and them importing Miles Bridges, shore that up a little bit. I guess that would probably be more of a defensive question, but that would help them take a step forward. Also, if this team underperforms for whatever reason, you know, whose fault it will not be Jordan Goodwins, because he's innocent and has never done a bad thing in his life. I mean, they need guys that can handle the ball. Yeah.

And also guard the fuck out of people. Like, I want them to hold on to that spirit as much as possible. And we'll see to what extent it's true. I just, not to make it all about this, but I feel like the more a team invests this much in Jalen Green, the harderness for me to take them seriously. And so part of what made the Suns impressive and kind of, honestly, got us into the mid-off debate in the first place was the version of them that predated Jailian Green when he was still sidelined

and they were making it work. That was the issue. That was the issue and really the only reason I lost, which I'm still waiting on my shirt that I'm supposed to wear. I know, I need to get on that. Maybe five years from now. Shocked you didn't bring it with you. Maybe Minnesota.

You got time. It's the type of thing that requires just more work than I'm willing to invest in it. Okay. You know, like you really have to find somewhere that does the designs, then you have to come up with something. If anyone out there, I think I saw someone suggest that they would,

do it for us. If anyone wants to come up with the design and then just sends me the link where I could then buy the shirts, I will buy that person a shirt and send it to them. I want to be very clear. I don't accept any shirts from anyone who isn't you. You have to do this. This was between you and me. You can't outsource. How did I, by winning, end up with the burden of having to do work here? You created the terms of the bet. I know, I did. I've heard on myself. But this is also empowering. You You get to make it whatever you want. That's a good thing. So don't look at it as work.

Look at it as a labor of humiliation for Rob. I like that. A little racial slur in there. There are limits, you know. All right, why don't we wrap it there? That's the end of part two of the preseason NBA Power Rankings. We'll be back with Part 3 on Friday. Thank you to Victoria Valencia.

Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Bill Simmons for stopping by. We might see him again. at some point later in these preseason power rings. We'll see. But for now, we'll talk to you next time.