The Ringer NBA Show - Preseason Power Rankings, Part 2 | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are back for the second installment of the preseason power rankings. This time, they are revealing the teams they ranked 25 through 21. Intro: (0:00:00)Team no. 25: (4:39)Team no. 24: (25:03)Team no. 23: (41:22)Team no. 22: (51:57)Team no. 21: (1:05:06) Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny LambreProducers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier. That's Rob Mahoney. That's Big Was. We are back here in Los Angeles. So about a week before you're actually hearing this to go through part two of the preseason power rankings. Typically, we do a little bit of banter up top here. But because we're recording these in advance, because we want to get these out to you as soon as possible.

And with our lovely faces in this amazing backdrop that Victoria Valencia has constructed for. us. We are turning to our friend Rob, who's going to provide us with some fodder in order to get us into our exercise today. I'm always here for fodder. You know, we don't have the news. We don't have the news hook. We don't have something to talk about. So instead, I turn to the New York Times is 36 questions that lead to love. I thought, you know what? This is our training camp. This is our media day. We need to bond. We need to some team building exercises. So every one of these subsequent pods, I'm going to hit you with one of these questions starting today, number seven. Unless something newsworthy happens in which point, you will not hear one of these, but you will hear a new topic.

And you will see us in different places recording after the fact. But for now, I present you with this question, do you have a secret hunch about how you will die? I do. But I don't think I want to share it. Why not? This is, like, kind of dark. I think that's what we're up. Look, we're talking about some bad NBA teams today, or at least not good NBA teams.

I think we can lean into some of the darkness. I don't know why I've always just assumed that I would have a stroke. Really? Yeah. I don't know why. There's no reason, no specific, just a hunch. Every time it's happened to somebody in my life, I'm like, I bet that happens to me someday. I don't know what the causes of strokes are, why I would be more predisposed.

It's just something I've always felt. This is a crazy question, to be honest. Has it led you to be more hypervigilant? about the prospect of having a stroke. No. It changed nothing about your life whatsoever. It's just like... It might happen something.

It's just like, for me, I'm just like, the end is going to be painful. Yeah. I'd see that's a fairly common way to go. We're talking about like all the typical means. I don't think I have a specific way of dying, but I think I will die early. In fact, I probably will die of stress,

probably caused by you doing something. This is the all. We're going to push a recording time. That would be the thing that puts you over the edge. We're waiting the five minutes for Rob to pop on and just, I croak right down there. Think about all you could have been doing with that five minutes. It's so tough. No, but like people, I will say that I'm, I have, I'm middle age or I'm having a midlife crisis

often as a joke. And people are like, you're not a middle life crisis. I'm like, I'm 38 years old. Like, how long do you think I'm going? How long do you think this is going to last? We're not getting into the 80s and 90s. No. I was not built for longevity.

This is the NBA pod for midlife crises. This is really our lane. There's the young creators who are coming up on YouTube. There's the old guard. And then there's us. We're in the thick of it. Millennial dads. True millennial dad vibes and age.

If not actual dads. But I feel like I've gotten to know you both better through this exercise. I mean, mine, I mean, look, probabilistically heart disease. How I would like to go playing pickup basketball. Honestly, I want to die on my shield out there. How would I like to go? Oh, definitely just don't wake up. just softly, peacefully.

Go to sleep, but I'm done. That would be great. I've also become slowly more afraid of plane crashes, which seems pretty founded, unfortunately. It doesn't seem quite founded. You go through some turbulence, like one that jars you a little bit, and you get on that plane a little bit more hesitant than you didn't,

as a young man. Well, I mean, I think this is fitting. We're going to talk about a lot of plane crashes today. Great segue. Yes, including the next team on our list. So if you listen to these podcasts before or you listen to Part 1, you probably know the deal at this point. We ranked all the teams, aggregated the rankings.

Isaiah Blakely broke the ties. Only two ties, I should mention, this year, which is fewer than usual, including the last team on our list on this episode. But other than that, we're going to go through talking about the teams. We're going to go through some existential questions and we're going to name some guys more things.

Well, I think we already went through the existential question. We kind of tackled that one. Yes, we did. Well, I would say the question overall for our first team, on the list number 25 the Chicago Bulls is pretty existential because I think they've made a lot of moves of late over the past two years

but I don't really know where they're going. They bring back Josh Giddy this off season but for a team that's constantly in the news for consternation basically a lot of just worry about what's going on what's the process where are we going what are we doing now it was actually pretty inactive

over this office. Yes. I think they are the worst team that we're talking about that we're considering in the entire league to just look around and be like, yeah, we're good.

We're just gonna... We're just gonna more or less roll it, like run it back. A couple of moves around the edges. I don't know why you would expect anything dramatically to dramatically improve with this core.

Like there are some young players who are naturally going to get better. There's guys who are going to develop. We're all excited about that. But I just don't see a lot of reason to be optimistic about the direction of the bulls. Other than the East is going to be

less competitive. So maybe just, By default, they will fall into a couple more wins they otherwise would have lost. I think the direction is that they didn't make a Vucovich type of move this offseason. So they didn't re-Bowls. They didn't do it again. I think that's the thing that you would be excited about. I guess excited shouldn't be the word, but you should think warmly about if you're a Bulls fan.

Sure. The last thing we talked about in part one with the Pelicans, I think there's a similar ownership dynamic. happening in Chicago. It doesn't feel like the Rinesdorf really give a damn about what happens with this team either way. And I think that's why everything they do feel so rudderless and directionless. But again, not re-bullsing this offseason is a sign in a good direction, I think. Yes.

If you're going to make the contrary argument, which I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to you, but if you want to be an optimist about this, as I typically am, $85 million. in expiring this season alone. Okay. Booch, Collins, Herder, Kobe White, you presume he'll get a new deal, but he's on there for now.

I-O. Dissoumu and Javon Carter. Next season, so two seasons from now. Yep. There are $29.2 million in expirings just on that year alone. So the team really is Josh Giddy and your most recent draft picks,

and you just brought back Josh Giddy on an extension. And so you do have a world of opportunity. I think the problem is it's the same, people who constructed this team that are going to get another crack, presumably at the next phase of this. It's kind of like the Brooklyn Nets, but just the worst version where there was no good, and the future is bleak because you're expecting someone who didn't have success to create a successful version of the same sort of blueprint. So the good news is some of this someday will end.

Yes. Yes. Sweet, sweet death is upon us. Apparently. I mean, I do take your point about the same people designing this team, redesigning a new version of the team with the same kind of fundamental decision-making flaws. I just think, Billie Donovan just got an extension as the head coach of the Bulls. Hall of Famer. I think he's done a fine job.

I don't really attribute their shortcomings to a Billy Donovan problem per se. Yeah, Billy Donovan's like, I don't want to say he's replacement level. He's a good NBA coach. Yeah, he's good. He was coaching the next right now. You'd be like, you'd feel good about it.

You'd feel good about it. Yeah, I'd feel decent about it. Yeah, that's fair. But ultimately, he has been the coach and the steward of a team that is just like 40 wins, 39 wins, 39 wins. This is what they do and what they kind of expect to do.

And I think part of the problem is they just don't, when they do make swings, it's for Vooch type deals. And when they, and that's like, that's not where you want to be as an organization.

Sports is weird because you fetishize continuity and just people who have been in the same jobs for a long time. But on the other hand, when it's someone who hasn't had rousing success

who hasn't won a ring, it just breathes malaise. Yeah. And it just feels jarring to have someone like Donovan who's done well, for a long time, but hasn't exceeded expectation. Continuity's only good if the thing that you're continuing was good.

Right. We're saying he's been good. He just hasn't been A. He's been like a B. He hasn't been, you know, Steve Kerr, right? In the sense that they win all these championships. Katie leaves. Clay gets hurt.

And there's a general malaise there in Golden State. But it's like, bro, we're going to stay the course. We still got Steph. We still got Clay. We still got Draymore. still got Steve Kerr. And then they get rewarded in 2022 with the championship. I think, you know, you got to respect that continuity or in Miami, you know.

Or in podcasting? Or podcasting. You want to keep the same crew together despite the modest returns, I think. Facts. But keeping it going when you've been a 39, 38 win team through the DeRosins, through the Jimmy Butler's through the Lanzo balls. Like, it's tough. And I would feel better about the turnover you're talking about,

just in terms of, you know, the salary sheet naturally kind of turning over. If this was a franchise we trusted and knew could do something with those opportunities. But the reason Vouch is an expiring contract because they have failed to trade him during the windows in which he has been tradable. The reason they got so little for Zach Levine is because they waited so long. Like they've done this with player after player after player, all in service of sustaining a MET team. Yeah.

Yeah. The one guy that they have long term now is Josh Giddy. We've talked about it on the previous part. What did you think about that extension of them? Four years, 100 million. Sure. Yeah. Sure.

Right. I don't really have a big problem with it. I think ultimately the deal with Giddy is the same as it's always been. Like he has improved as a player significantly. I think he's really found himself in a role that kind of works for him. But he has a natural. ceiling in terms of his own limitations, what he is giving or not giving on defense and how you need to compensate for that. And I said that even after he had, I think, his best defensive season last year

as a bull. It's just like, I feel the walls and the ceiling closing in on a Josh Giddy led team. Like if he is your best player, and to be very clear right now, he is the Chicago Bulls best player, it tells you exactly how flawed your roster is. Well, that's our existential question, which is who is the Bull's best player right now and who will it be? And so you're, You're saying Giddy is right now. Yes. Would you agree? I would say Kobe White is their best player right now.

Yes. And if Josh Giddy continues to, you know, improve on the jump shot, which we did talk about when we talked about his deal, I think he could make that claim. And if he's, if Josh Giddy is making his jump shots at $25 million a year, that's a great contract. Yeah, yeah. Right?

I just think Kobe White is the most reliable in terms of what he brings on a day to day. One of the most underrated players in the league, to be fair. 100%. Not a lot of chatter about Kobe White. Yes. Yes. Yeah. White took off around the same time Giddy did.

Not coincidentally, when Zach Levine was traded from the team, just has a certain juice and electricity to the way he scores. I think few players, even at the top of the game, really do. Also, the on-ball, off-ball stuff that he's capable of doing so seamlessly within a possession, not necessarily over the course of just trading off with Giddy, I think, is really beneficial because I think you could build around him. Obviously, smaller player. So defensively, there's going to be concerns there.

But he took leaps, especially late in the season. His ball handling bag, I think is getting better. The way he knifes back and forth and the way that he has stepbacks on his other stuff, I think when he's shooting well, I think it all comes together. I think he's a very good offensive player. I think the problem they're going to get into, unfortunately, is like, what do you pay a guy like that who's not a superstar, small scoring guard? Right. He's on an expiring contract worth about $13 million this year.

presume they'd want him back after this to pair with Gideon, this sort of like multi-ball handler flowing offense. And I like that version of the team, at least from an aesthetic standpoint. I just don't know what it gets you to have Giddy and White as your two core foundation players. Are we still giving the Jordan Poole contract out? Is that still the going rate?

The, well, Tyler Hero re-uped and got a raise on that. It's true. But, like, is it still the four-year-old? is 120, because I don't think that's a ridiculous contract for Kobe White. No. To be honest, because he's like the score first guard and can give you some ball handling juice. And, like, he's a credible NBA starters. So I think that would be a fair deal for him.

I know we all agree that Jordan Poole was overpaid, but we, you know, we now look at Tyler Hero and be like, that was a fair deal. Yeah. When it's going right. Yes. And it's a weird game of leverage, though, because on the one hand, you would say the market based off of this off season is diminishing the value of guys like Kobe White. I also don't know where he would go and step into a role as prominent as he is with the Bulls. On the other hand, he's a free agent.

He's not a restricted free agent like Josh Kitty was. Huge difference. Where is the leverage on the bull side of it to be like, oh, you could just walk. I guess the fact that they don't have anything going from them and have nothing to necessarily lose, they could play that card. but like I assume we'll end up in a similar place like that. Pull makes $32 million. That seems tough in this current environment, but like... And yet Kobe White is definitively a better player than Jordan Bull.

And definitively more versatile in terms of, you know, we talk about these players who can fit kind of everywhere. Yeah. Every team could use a Kobe White. The role, I agree with you, Justin varies from team to team. And I think what kind of limits him as a bull in regard to the Josh Giddy conversation is he is a really amenable, really flexible kind of score who can play alongside of their ball handlers. He doesn't define the way you play.

And that's a blessing and a curse, right? That makes him as versatile as he is. But it also means you can envision a world without him sometimes. And I think that's a dangerous place to get with an unrestricted free agent. It's a tough world for the short scoring kings of our league, unfortunately. But I would give the Bulls credit in this regard. They have filled out the rest of their roster with bigger wings that have some skill to them. I think modest Bezellis.

For example, that sort of mold that they typically gravitate toward, where guys can do a little bit of everything, Bezell's just being a bigger version of perhaps even the giddy who's big in his own right. And then Noah Senge, who they picked 12th overall in his past draft, kind of in that similar mode, we'll see very young. But I see the vision with this team is the unfortunate thing, which apparently nobody else does.

I feel like I'm the kid in the sixth sense. Can you tell us the vision? Can you share it with us? It's what we saw in that first two months of the Lanzo ball era where people were ripping and running Caruso. where the defense gives way to fast break offense. There's multiple ball handlers. Things are just flowing.

And it's just kind of like an overwhelming avalanche of passing and shooting and skill, right? And I see that they're trying to do that again. It's just like this team still feels like four years away, even if that is your vision with the existing players at the center. Well, even they're skilled players. You have four years away? I mean, Zellis is like two years away. The Sengue might be four. Yeah.

Another draft pick you would need. because Vooch probably isn't going to stay past we hope we think we'll be the starting center of that team so that's a couple more years of like between 35 and 40 wins and then we're finally then we're finally ready for something I think that is the best version of this team

if they waited out because Gideon is his own right we should mention like he's on his second contract but he's still like 22 years ago he was a very young player to start his career and so I think I think you waited out you build talent I think that would be the most prudent path but then you're just asking a fan base that is still rabid despite recent returns to keep waiting for something that might not get there.

They've been asked to wait a long time. Yeah, well, that Michael Jordan statue is still out front and they could take photo. It's true. Whatever like soul was sold at a crossroads to a demon has paid off. There's no question for the Chicago Bulls as an organization. But I get what you're saying from the vision perspective, I think specifically in Buzellis's case. Like the best player right now is one of those two guys, Kobe White or Josh Gidey, the most important person in the entire organization is Modis Buzellis, because they could use a lot more players like him. You can see why they would target kind of similarly multifaceted players,

but he's the first guy they've had that feels like he is opening something up for the franchise with his potential. Like Josh Giddy is a little more, okay, we've gotten a player who we didn't really have a player type before, and that has changed some things about how we play. Buzellis, you see now, and it's like, this is exciting and fun, and invigorating. And it's exciting and fun

and invigorating in part because I have no idea what he's going to be in two years. And the fact that he can do a little bit of everything at such a competent level already and also has such an unconventional style and game in terms of the timing.

It makes it feel elusive in a good way. You like Ica Coro for who will be the best player? Patrick Williams. Putting Ica Cora and Pat Williams on the same team is a sick, sick joke, honestly. I mean, I'm a Jalen Smith guy. I always have been.

I just think, like, he always gives quality minutes when he's on the floor, if not like, oh, he's some world beater. But you never regret having him out on the floor. I just look at the pieces after the big three of Giddy, White, and Bezellis. It is, it's tough. It's slim pickings after those three. Well, especially the wing rotation. Like, this is, I guess it depends on how you want to classify guys,

like, Woody, Giddy. and Kobe White, but like beyond them? Ica Coro couldn't make it work in Cleveland with that surrounding talent. Yeah. It seems unlikely that this is going to be an elevated Ica Coro from the one we've seen previously. Am I crazy to think that?

And yet he might be their best other wing player by default. It's either him or Kevin Herder, basically. If he should, it's not Patrick Williams. It makes sense. We know that. I just, it hasn't worked for a guy, Ike, But I get the logic at the very least for the trade where Lonzo, are we sure he's going to even play? He plays very well, especially in contrast to Ica Coros when he does play.

But like that guy has like exoskeleton at this point in his lower half. They also just don't have kind of go-to defensive stoppers. And Isaac Okoro, again, he's like a pretty standstill shooter, quite limited on offense, has never really gotten his arms around that side of the ball. But he puts in work defensively. He will pressure guys. He's a little undersized, which has always been kind of a disappointing. part of his game.

Like, if he were just, if he were the size of Pat Williams, but the heart of Ica Coro, that's a player. Unfortunately, they have both and they're in separate bodies. Yes. Yeah. We need a freaky Friday sort of swap here. So I think the real freaky Friday swap would be Lanzo's mind for the game in his brother's body. Yeah.

That would be a hell of an NBA player. Really would. The Bulls unfortunately have neither of those. But I think the obvious answer to the question of who. will be the best player is probably the guy who's not on team at this point. And I will say, despite the fact that I don't think they're going to be good, we have them as, what, the the fifth worst team in the league next year. I do feel like recent lotteries have rewarded teams that were bad by mistake as opposed to by just like intention. And so perhaps the Bulls will

get some good karma back for at least like trying to try out a young developing team, not with the goal of just being as terrible as possible. So you're going to like take the vision of the bulls and just like the minutes of this highly at best mediocre basketball team. And you think this pleases the basketball gods. I think, yeah. I think they're trying to be fun and trying to be good. Unfortunately, they are not good at being good.

No. At building good. And so they will be bad by default. And that is what the gods look down upon. Having the right attitude toward losing. And I do think you stick up high end. on this team like a Darren Peterson and AJ DeBanza, whoever comes out of college

and season, like, now we're on to something. Yeah. Now we got a little juice here. So, any other guys to name for things? I was delighted to find out that we, look, we already had Mo Gay on the Atlanta Hawks, Muhammad Gay in the NBA. We now have on the Bulls,

Mohamedu Gay, in addition. So we now live in a world with both Muhammad Gay and Mohamedu Gay, and I'm thrilled about it. Okay. Um, Vushvich has a $22 million expiring contract. I will say this about Vouch. Uh, he played well last year. The good version of Vouch showed up.

Yes. What that means to, what was it worth? That's, that's the question. Like, when he's playing well, like, it's, it's almost like he's playing to a neutral. There's a lot of these questions with the Bulls of like, this player did this thing. Josh Giddy is the king of this. Josh Giddy put up good numbers, had his best season to. date. What is it worth? And the Bulls had to put an actual financial value on that, but the reality is when he was on the floor, they were about the level of like the 18th best offense in the league.

I just think when Vukovitchevich is rolling, no defense reacts differently. You know what I mean? It's like, if he's playing well, it's like, oh, that's nice. He's not being a negative suck on the team. Like when he is playing well, it's not, they're not going to send extra defenders. They're not going to tilt the defense. in his direction. Like, everybody's just like, okay. I think Vooch would be best served. Now we're really deep in the weeds about Vouch's best usage in the NBA. I want what's best for him. I think he would be a very good backup center

where the offense tilts toward him. Kind of like, this is a different example, but what Brooke Lopez is presumed to be the backup center in the Clippers. Yes. Yeah. To give him a different look. Like, I think that would really serve him well.

Like, it was the Laker's backup center. You have Dandre Atenham insurance. Well, what Valchunis is doing in Denver this year. Yes. Like, if he could come in and just man a bench unit and just keep everything afloat, yeah, that's beautiful. I think the-28 minutes a game in the NBA?

Yeah. The unfortunate part does this feel like the Bull's offense, at least last year, needed him to step outside and provide the spacing for the rest of the guys because some of the shooting could be iffy. And so, like, he actually is more central to what they're doing, then he probably should be. He hates spacing, by the way. It's not his favorite part of the job.

We should say this. Typically sucks at it. As far as their overall spacing, goes and Boots is a part of that clearly. Like, they did get the right kinds of shots. Like, the profile looks good. The shots that Josh Giddy creates, I think, on paper, look good. Do they look good in flow?

I don't always think that's the case. And so they're in this weird middle ground of, like, yes, they're getting three, they're getting, like, quote unquote, good threes for, like, guys who can't actually shoot. They're getting shots inside for guys who can't actually finish. Like, how do those shots change if those were actually players who needed to be guarded in those spaces. And that's where I get a little bit nervous about extrapolating a little bit of offensive success into something actually lasting and contending. And you want to throw that on the feet

of Billy Donovan. He's provided this beautiful outline. I'm not saying it's Billy Donovan's fault. That his co-hosts just have been executed on. And you want to blame him. That's fine. The fact that you see yourself as a Billy Donovan type, very interesting, says a lot to me. I think that's actually pretty accurate. Agro, Northeastern tracks. I don't even think he's accurate. Winner. I find it in between, you know, thoughtful, actually. Quite thoughtful.

Yeah. You know, seems like a nice guy. He has a long history of giving the longest answers to press conference questions. Like, it might be historic. It's just heavily detailed and nuanced. Highly literal also. I remember, I want to say this was Fred Katz. Forgive me, Fred, if this was not your story.

But relaying a Billy Donovan answer about, like, starting off this road trip. And Billy Donovan gave, like, a step by step, like, oh, well, first we went to airport, then we went through, you know, they went through security, then we went down there. It was like, but not as a bit, but just like, this is the way this guy thinks. This is how he explains the world. Yeah, step by step. You know, one brick at a time, baby. That's what we do here.

The next brick for our preseason power rankings, the Phoenix Suns, at number 24. One of the saddest teams in America across all sports, they did a lot this offseason, including getting rid of their two or two of their best players. Kevin Durant is now gone. Radley Beal. He's gone technically, but you look at those books. He's still around for a while, unfortunately. I have little hope in this team, but there's just too much talent for them to be in the first part of our podcast.

Definitely. Which is why they end up here in the dregs of the Western Conference, but still feisty because you have Booker and stuff, and that's going to get you a couple of them. In the 20s and the 30s, probably. Bookers, I would think, easily the best player we've talked about so far. right? Has there been any player on any of these other lesser teams that are even close to him? Yeager? Not yet. Not yet. Walker is, yeah. Yeah, he's the best player so far. Which says something that a player of his caliber is at 24th.

But then you look at the team and not only is it not a team up to the talent of even last year's roster, but one that just does not fit together very well. One in which you don't see how Devin Booker fits with all of these other players around whom are supposed to be supported. him starting with Jalen Green and think, oh, this is a marriage that just absolutely works in theory. I've always had a soft spot for Devin Booker going back to like 2018 when I, like the first time I saw him play here in L.A. And I was like, man, what's not the like about this guy? Like nobody can stay in front of him. He makes his jump shots.

Like, he's got a great handle and a feel for the game. However, I've gotten to the point where I think his reputation is outpaced. what he actually brings these days and I think the Phoenix contract is just like It's quite a deal That's Exhibit A of Devin Booker Has gotten to be overrated

So what are you gonna do for the Sons? Like unless you are tearing everything down to the studs And I think Devin Booker I agree in some ways Maybe a little overstated in terms of his reputation I'm still struggling personally With understanding like what is the best Devin Booker role Like who are his ideal teammates?

I don't really know. Chris Paul Well apparently not. That's his ideal team. That's when he's had his best years. But ideal teammate is personality as much as it is game. It's like what kinds of people and what kinds of players do you need around Devin Booker?

I don't know. Jalen Green might be the polar opposite of Chris Paul as a backcourt mate. Well, it hasn't been announced that Jalen Green's not going to start. Is that a thing? He's not going to be the point guard. Excuse me. He's not going to play point guard. Well, I assume Devin Booker is kind of the knob, like kind of the point guard.

We're back to the, like, Booker as pseudo-Hardons. Yes, I think the problem for Booker, man, is like he's not making his pull of threes anymore for whatever reason. And he's just not as dangerous a number one option if he's not putting defenses in a panic with that part of his arsenal. So I think if Devin Booker were as good as his reputation or the contract that he got, the sons would have just been way better last year. And he just wasn't good enough, bro. And now he's being asked to do even more. Like, I'm this big a critic of KD as anybody,

but the idea that he was making Devin Booker's job harder doesn't seem to track with me. So I don't know. Well, the issue is they didn't have any centers, you know? That was the only issue with that team. The only one. And so they doubled down and somehow they now have three centers, including Nick Richards,

whom they trade for last trade deadline, who was just hanging around long enough to see Mark Williams, his former teammate with the Charlotte Hornets, now on the same team. And plus they have Mollawatch comes via the draft, the lottery pick they get from the Sons, which was their own hilariously.

I just don't, like, I'm glad they have centers now. I don't know why they decided to lean so far into it. The idea that the solution to your problem is the center rotation of the Charlotte Hornets, a team that also struggled with the maintenance and consistency of that exact center rotation, I don't know. I don't know what this is.

Well, the owners said they were going to be doing things less conventionally going forward. They certainly are. This might be part of that push. One area in which that is true is with the other like kind of point guards on this team, which is a real like be careful what you wish for. Rob moment. Two guys I actually really like in Jordan Goodwin and Jared Butler. Do I like them as guys who are playing starter type minutes?

No. Do I like them as guys who are playing even. second like immediate backup minutes. Not always, to be honest with you. But two role players I actually like and at least one of them is going to be asked to do quite a bit. The Jordan Goodwin revision is history based off of like some solid Lakers minutes toward the end of last year is like is out of control. Honestly, the Jordan, the Lakers sin is the worst part of his career. Wow.

Like he can actually guard people. And again, this is a team that needs perimeter defense that needs pressure and exactly the way we're just talking about with the Bulls too. Like they need somebody who's going to get up whether it's full quarter. or just picking up high in terms of the pickup point. But Dalen Green's not going to do it. Devon Booker's not going to do it. Dylan Brooks will. I think the combination of Brooks and one of these guards is the baseline of something

on defense, but it's not a finish. I think Booker at his best is guarding people as well. Sure. But with that offensive workload, is that even reasonable? He's doing more this year. Yeah. It's tough. I agree that there is more of a floor for which Booker can probably,

if he excels, that at the very least there's some stability in order to provide him that spotlight. Unfortunately, I think you are left with the Goodwin's and some of these younger players who have gone from other teams and are looking for the second or third shots

in order to be sort of the upside swings because there aren't any more on this roster in this organization. So you mentioned Devin Booker's honorous contract down the road there. He's making $69 million in a player option in 2930, when we will all be dead of some various,

former fashion. The sons don't have control of their pick for another two years after that until the 2032 season. That's how bereft they are of anything. And so you would say like, oh, they're a little bit more solid on the fringes. Dylan Brooks is the type of three and Dwing that they haven't had before because they were just stockpiling shooting guards left and right. On the other hand, like, when Dylan Brooks comes off the books in like two or three years, it's like how do you replace that. You're, you're, you can say like, oh, free agency. Sons are a destination. People like being in Phoenix. They legitimately do. They want to play with Devin Booker. I bring up Tyson Chandler hanging out in a closet when Marcus

Alchitz was there all the time because it's one of the most hilarious stories and reasoned history. Unfortunately, the books, because they waved and stretched Bradley Beale, he's hanging around like a fucking Specter. The combination of the Beal stretch contract and Booker's new deal makes operating in free agency at any kind of star level. Not impossible, but just highly, highly unlikely. Do you know who's making the second most money in 28, 29, when Dylan Brooks, excuse me, when Green, Allen, and O'Neill come off the books? Second most in Phoenix?

Yes. After Devin Booker. The Zodiac Killer. If you were referring to Bradley Beal, you would be correct. Oh, Bradley Bill? Bradley Field stretched and waived contract at $19.4 million is making the second most money in that season. Do you know who's making, I believe it was third most? Nazir Little, whose contract was also stretched and waived for $3 million.

We're assuming that Mark Williams gets an extension. It's off season so that could knock that off at a time. I mean, they are stretching and waving like nobody else, except maybe the bucks. They have like basically a Josh Getty worth of salary just lingering in a stockpile over in the a corner that is just completely messing things up. This to me is backdooring into our existential question. Yes. Oh, you're on you said.

Yeah, would you like to read it? It's your question. I'm glad to claim it as my own, but you did, you did author. I thought you were referring to our deaths. Okay, no. Somehow not, even though this is the podcast for thinking about death and getting sad and stuff. So the question is, when is the next time Booker plays with another star in Phoenix being the caveat, which is a very important one.

And how did it happen? I think it would happen via trade, and it would be a dump. It would be a lamello. It would be a Trey Young because things went horribly wrong in Atlanta. And, you know, calling those guys stars, they are stars. Sure. But at that point, it may be a very different conversation. At that point, it's like you're just grasping at straws.

It's like, let's put another quote-unquote star player next to Devin Booker. and just see what happens because there's no other pathway here for them. They would have to take a flyer in a guy that teams have just deemed like the money, the output is just not there anymore. I think the answer is he doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there will be another star in Phoenix to play with Devin Booker.

We talked about the free agency situation. Justin, you laid out how many picks are already out the door. The young prospects on the roster, I think there's a couple that you could like as potential role players, but guys who would return a star and a trade, I just don't see it. And so then how are they getting there? I think it's, to me, it's much more likely than when Booker does, when this contract runs out in 2030, that he leaves. Or sometime in the middle, he gets very frustrated with what is not going to be a very good

team. Those feel much more likely to me than them trading for another star, which sucks. And I understand for the Sons, especially as a fan of that team, like, this is your guy, right? Like, this is somebody who has been around through so many coaching changes, so many rebuilds, like has not had a fair shake of it in terms of carrying an organization. And yet, that's a reason to leave. I think their only advantage in terms of team building is that they're so in deep in terms of debt that that can become a strength because you're more willing to do exactly what was says. Take on the bad contract for a guy who just wants out. And we saw this with Jimmy Butler

play out. He wanted to get to Phoenix specifically because they were willing to give him an extension. And the one advantage to getting rid of Bradley Beal, despite the fact that they have to pay him for five more years after this is that you're out of the second apron for time being perhaps it gives you a little bit more wiggle room to overpay the next guy. Now, will you be in the same situation then at that point? Yes, but that's a future you

problem. You have to worry about that. But even the idea of making another Bradley Beal trade happen, they can't do it. Like, they just don't have the, like all, it was all pick sweetening to make that even possible. And they threw in way too much to even make that one work. Do we consider DeAngelo Russell a star? No. Because

He wasn't All-Star. No. DeAngelo Russell. Can we get the team back together, the boys? Nope. Because is that the point where, like, even if you were like, oh, Booker's friends with certain people, maybe they would want to come and play with them? Like, why the hell would Kat, for instance, one of his good friends?

Like, why would he ever do it? Not even know financially how you would do it. Yeah. Very difficult. They just got to pray. I don't even know that I would say pray. They just have to wait for, again, a star that nobody wants. wants to go on to the market.

They kind of, they just did it on a smaller scale with Jalen Green. A player who was on the market, a score, a creator, a guy with a high draft pedigree, who, you know, everyone around the league has been kind of waiting to really have his moment. He hasn't had it yet. I don't think this is going to be it. But if there is a high upside swing for Jalen Green, maybe that opens up something and you draw some interest that way. I just don't know that he really has it in him based on everything we've seen so far to be a

star level or to at least tempt a star level trade. Yes. If they could draw something out of some of these younger guys, you've built kind of similar to what the heat have, finding guys from the fringes, a feeder system that goes beyond any cap constraints, right? That is like something unique to certain franchises that becomes more valuable as like the cap starts

to become more hard, right? I just, do you have any faith that this is the organization to do that? No. I just, they haven't showed it at this point. Maybe the new coaching staff is just, they've lucked into the next,

like Kenny Atkinson style where he's going to be doing shoeless drills on the floor with these guys and all of a sudden Jalen Green figures it out. I don't think it's going to happen. Yeah. But that's what they need to have. If a coach slapping the floor is what gets Jalen Green's career together, I would be thrilled about it, honestly, but I'm not banking on it. Yeah, I think last year is when I officially just, I'm out, I'm off the boat.

On Jalen Green? You were a believer for a while. Yeah, just the talent is there. It's clearly there. It's just never been functional, you know, like the speed with the ball, without the ball, the explosiveness. It's like never resulted in like some great rim finishing. No.

Obviously, the shot selection has been a problem from the day that he stepped into the NBA. And then, you know, last year in the playoffs, like, they needed him to be the vision of what they drafted him for and he just not even that they just needed him to be a scoring presence that yeah for all you know i've had i've had skepticism about his game and a shot selection everything you just talked about was the moment that radicalized me was him getting like step one-on-one and he can't do anything like he can't create he can't get an angle he can't

get a lane like what are you doing as a player if you are jailing green if not thriving in those sorts of one-on-one situations like that that your game that's not your entirety of your game, but if you can't do that, what else are you doing? What vision of him working out in Phoenix? I don't know. Well, if it does work out, it feels like it duplicates what you'd want from Booker. Like his ball domineering, just those scoring bingges he goes on, like the one playoff game that he had.

Yeah. Everything centers around him. He becomes what everyone orbits around. But like the best of Devin Booker is a guy that's getting to the line, making his threes. For sure. Like bending the defense. A true three level score. Yeah.

Having two guys. do that would be incredible, but yeah, I just don't see that. The one game every five where Gaelin Green goes off are really fun. Yes. I would say one of every seven to eight, but... Yeah. So if you could check your like moon and zodiac charts in order to pick the right home game in order to catch that, you're in luck, but otherwise, I think it's going to be tough son. Agreed. Any other guys for things? I mean, there's some fringe guys who are interesting. I like Oslo a Godaro. Yeah. Again, it's just like an effort, prospect, like high energy guy. I'm excited to see Nigel Hayes Davis back in the NBA

and what he can do for them. Again, not that they need a ton of, I mean, they do need scoring, but he doesn't, like, solve their scoring issues or their creation issues, but couldn't hurt to have him around. Remember when Ryan Dunn made all of his threes for three weeks?

We were very excited about it. I remember nuts. Remember that? He was basically untouchable. Maybe he could do it for six weeks this year. That would be thrilling. Kobe Brea can shoot. We'll see.

Mark Williams might play 50 games. Yeah. Williams is not hit. It needs to get paid. I mean, Mark Williams is a type of player that they have not had. Yeah. Granted, he's a type of player who I would want a more traditional point guard setting up. And Devin Booker's a good passer, but a good passer like four or two.

Like four kind of, I mean, I think at best maybe a combo guard if you want to lay him out that way. But big old target. I don't know that I want like a ton of Devin Booker, Mark Williams pick and roll as like the crux of my offense. I don't want everything rolling around that. And if not, where is Mark Williams contributing offensively? Also, Moloak is, he's a project. He is not ready for the NBA. What a great, what a great story we're building in Phoenix.

Well, to turn the page to something, more rainbows and sunshine. Jesus Christ. Number 23, the Sacramento Kings, who I found it tough to watch the Philadelphia 76ers last year because there was so much sadness behind the eyes of everything. were doing. This is before they completely turned the page to the tanking and you got guys like Quentin Grimes taking 40 shots a game and all this other stuff. That's a different story. But there's a time where they were trying to make it work in between the games where nobody was healthy where it's like Paul George playing center. It was just very tough to watch. I think the

Kings might rival that this year from the jump. Because there's just nothing to get excited about one. And then two, you have these veterans who we've had such good times with. Like former cast members of your favorite sitcoms going out and doing like a CW show. You're like, oh, I remember when we had fun and spent time. Even worse. They're like doing Celebrity Big Brother. Yes. Oh, that's the one.

I just, I have them down as the worst league pass team of the year. I think that is definitively true, unfortunately. Wow. I think there's something so dispiriting about, like, offense is their best side of the ball, clearly. Like, personnel-wise in terms of their success last season, like, this is an offense-forward team. and yet I dislike almost everything about the form and function of their offense. And so why, like, I don't, I won't like watching it. I also just don't think they're going to be particularly good.

I don't think there's any reason for optimism in particular about this new trio of stars with Zach Levine and Demartoros and De Bonas Sabonis. Like those three guys have not worked in basically any combination so far that involves Zach Levine in particular. Cool. Why would we expect that to change? And why would this be a particularly watchable or interesting or, successful team.

That's tough. Yeah. I mean, you look at the offensive talent on paper between Levine, De Rosen, you know, Keegan Murray, Malik Monk.

Even a Dennis Schroeder, like he gives you stuff on offense. Dennis Truer's a good player. It's just, like you said, Rob, there's no, there's no form to the team. There's no shape to it. It's just a muddled just

literally like they almost just threw these players against the wall and just like maybe this will stick and then you know we're hearing westbrook's going to be added to this mix yeah ah it's like an auto drafted team it really is exactly they're not really going to do the westbrook thing are they i wouldn't put it past them the westbrook thing would be i mean just making a bad thing worse trading for jonathan cuminga would be making a bad thing worse although it is hilarious that the warriors are reportedly resistant to trade comminga within the division to the saccharacicumina to the saccharacter Sacramento Kings. Which makes no sense to me. You don't want to pay the kid, but you're scared to trade him in division? I mean, they're terrified of what he could become in Sacramento. Right. The team was flawed previously, but there was a clear vision for what they were. Now I just, I don't know how these parts all fit together.

I don't know if Demartre Rosen or Zach Levine will be willing to stay past this trade deadline in order to make it all work. Yeah. And then you just throw in the veterans that you're overpaying just to. to get him in the door. And so as much as you could say that Dennis Schroeder is like, he's a grinder. He did well and played his role in Detroit

after getting tossed around to two other franchises last year. It's just like, he's not changing anything appreciably for this team. Well, we're now like three iterations removed from the version of the Kings that was good, right?

That was a subonious Fox Malik Monk team kind of first and foremost. Kigin Murray also a huge part of it. And then... Still waiting for that come up. I know. I think we'll get to him. But like,

then you bring in Damar, who already it wasn't a great balance between Fox and DeMarin and Sabonis. And then you bring in Levine instead and it's even worse. It's even worse in terms of process. Like these guys do not work well together. I would love to say they're like,

oh, if you just started this guy, if you just plugged in this guy. But no, like, it doesn't matter if it's Malik Monk. It doesn't matter if it's Keon Ellis. It's not going to matter if it's Dennis Schrooter who I cannot think for as much as I actually really do like Dennis Schroeder and like kind of the player he's become over the last couple years.

How is he's supposed to play with DeMarton? he's the exact he's the player they need least the kind of player they need least is Dennis Schrooter so can I give you my bottom five league pass rankings I would love to hear him prepared here so number one so starting from the bottom

so the worst team Sacramento Kings as we discussed number two I have the jazz who I think go above the kings not based on actual basketball but because there are young guys at the very least you're intrigued sure sure I want to see what Ace can do yeah and for us I think

part of the exploration of League Pass is like seeing young guys developing especially earlier in the season. Where are these guys? How are they going to use them? What are they going to be? Number three of the Pelicans. Again, sadness behind the eyes. You'll have the Zion Games, which is their only salvation. I think fears

will pop occasionally. Also have the skeleton uniforms which are kind of cool. Also zero fears. We didn't mention in the previous. Yes. Very cool. I do like it. aesthetics. And number four, the sun. So we just talked about again, another sad team.

They can only do so much with that Boker. Number five, the heat. That offense is going to be a fucking sludge factor. Yeah, I guess for me, it's like the Celtics are in there, too, for me. Because they're just, they're not going to be good. We'll get to that. They're not going to be fun. It's not, like, I think people are interested to see what Jalen Brown does.

Most of the time, yeah. I mean, yeah, you might take 23 shots a game, but like, is that going to be interesting? I don't think so. I mean, but I think the heater a good pick, really the only saving grace from Miami from like a watchability perspective. Where?

Where Bam, to me, always has some juice and is doing interesting stuff from like a basketball dork perspective. I also, I am a simple man and just like Norm Powell putting the bucket or putting the ball in the bucket. Like I just, is appealing to me.

Did I miss any of the real dogs? Those feel like the worst or the worst, to be honest with you. I think, I mean, look, your mileage may vary on which truly bad teams feel unwatchable to you, but, like, I don't know, the hornets are going to get up and down. Like, even some of these other bad teams are at least going to be fast enough. I think the Nets, the Nets could be a very tough watch. Right. Any other guys or things for our Sacramento Kings?

I mean, we mentioned Kegan Murray. I think he does warrant a mention. because especially after his rookie year, there was so much enthusiasm associated with what he could be because he is a bigger wing and we thought he could shoot it and be a movement kind of guy and be a ball mover. And he just felt like this perfect connector kind of piece with guard people, like a high IQ.

He just felt like somebody just made for today's, NBA, and it just hasn't gone that way for him. And that's deeply disappointing. You know, like, for me, I thought he would be a bigger wing version of, basically a Derek White, like a supercharged ball mover, energizer. Like an elite role player. Like, no, he's not going to take your offense to new heights or whatever. He's not going to be the guy that carries you through a play.

playoff series. But, you know, I'll be damned if he's not constantly contributing to why you're getting over, you know, quality opponents. And he just hasn't put that all around game together. I think that's it. It's the, all the components are there. But when it's not all actualizing at the same time, when it is like you have one good shooting season and then one good defending season and this season, maybe you're a little

better at moving the ball, but the other things have fallen away. The result is sometimes he's just kind of invisible. Sometimes he's just kind of out there in like a very nondescript wing way that's worrying. And I say, we've held a lot of Keegan Murray stock on this pot. Like we have wanted him to hit and to click and to elevate. And I think we're just going to have to start readjusting our expectations a little bit. He's 25. Yeah, he was an older rookie.

If he could shoot it as well as he has in Summer League, all bets are off. Unfortunately, he is due an extension before the deadline before the season gets started. So we'll see if they come to that or he'll hit Restrictive Free Agency. I assume he's the type of player you bet on again. Yeah. Because, like, the pathway to him being the good version is simple enough. It's like one of those things where it's like, it's clear if you just shoot well, we'll find a place for you. And then we can figure everything out from there.

It's just like you need to be a dead eye shooter, especially for that offense, which at this point is relying a lot on those like step out sub bonus threes in order to fit the floor. What's the prototype of that deal though? Jabari Smith? Yeah. I think so. Damn. But you're right. already on the older side.

It's a big commitment for what Kegan Murray is like actually shown, right? Yeah. But you're the king, so. What else are you doing? Yeah. They typically just pay guys who want to be there. Yeah. So as long as he doesn't have eyes for joining his brother in Portland or something,

like I think he'll probably get another. You wish. I do wish. I do think, I mean, we're hitting at the larger point, which is with all of this like, just a dour outlook for Sacramento. The silver linings this season, I think, are going to be really hard to come by. Like, I don't even know where it's going to come other than if Kegan Murray has a nice kind of reclamation season. If Devin Carter has like a good, healthy season is able to kind of show some of the player he can be.

Those things would be really nice. What about Nick Clifford? I think Nick Clifford's going to be a solid role player from the jump. I hope because he is also an holder rookie. I believe he's going to be 24 in February. So about his own as King and Murray is now, he was very good at Summer League. He obviously had a long journey in college. I believe he played five years.

I think you see it right away. He plays a winning style of basketball. How much will that impact the bottom line? Probably not much. But just having a solid guy in there isn't the worst. They need solid guys. They're starving for solid guys. Well, that brings us to our next team, which has an abundance of solid guys.

But I'm not necessarily sure how they all. fit together. Number 22, your Toronto Raptors, who I think are building a case steadily of people wanting to believe in them. If only because there's just so much talent on this roster that just hasn't played together. Yes. In the Eastern Conference, where the bar is quite low. I think you can credibly make a case like, oh, they can only be so bad, right? Especially when you factor in the fact that they were a fairly good defense,

especially after January 1st. That's something that they can hang their hats on. how many of the actual players that are relying are going to be a part of that defense. We need to talk about that. That's a whole part of it. But Yaku Pertil, Scotty Barnes,

the components are there. At the very least, they have a backbone of defense, plus some offensive juice from the guys that they've traded for and extended immediately in odd fashion. I get the case. I don't think any of us

are necessarily believers in that, unfortunately. Well, so when we talk about believing in this Raptors team, what are we saying exactly, that they're going to be a top six East team, that they're going to make the playoffs as a play-in team?

Like, where is the threshold? It's hard to come up with the argument because I don't believe it. Yeah. But, sorry, we're pigeonholing you into the speaking for the other side here. Yeah, I think if you're a believer, and everything clicks in right, you could say, like, they will be a contender for a top six, but most likely settling into the play in. Which is, like, modest. And so, like, I can see it. Yeah.

But I also can see this just never fitting quite right in order to get there. I think if it wasn't Masayu, Jerry, we would look at them exactly as we look at the Bulls. like what are you doing? But it's not Messiah Jiri anymore. Well, it's his construction. It was him that has been doing this for four years or whatever it's been. So the guys that he believed in,

you are like other people are inclined to believe. I think people would have been looking at this as rudderless and completely stupid and asinine of a roster build. If it wasn't Masayu Jiri in all of respect that he garnered over the years because you just look at the team and the contracts that they've already doled out

and you say to yourself, where are we going with this? You know, I was, I was kind of like the IQ deal. I was like, hey, just a little bit on the pricey side. But if he becomes quality starter, you know, mid-30s minutes a game started for your team, that would be because he's making his shots and he's running your offense and he's giving you that pop at the one that you wanted. but he's basically not played.

Scotty Barnes is somebody I've just been become down on. I just think offensively, he's just never going to be like a credible carrier of your offense. Like I think that ship is sailed. Like Scotty Barnes, I think that's what he wanted himself to be.

I think that's why they ran past Galsiakum out of town for, but that ain't it. I don't think he's like the go-to-scrut. score, but as far as a guy who can organize potentially and sort of like hold a lineup or an offense together. I still believe in that version of Scotty Barnes. Does that player coexist with Brandon Ingram?

That's crazy. We'll find out. That's the thing. And RJ Barrett? And R.J. Barrett. In an ideal world, Barnes is your go-to playmaker, which is why quickly always made sense there.

For sure. As a point guard who doesn't necessarily need the ball in order to function on an offense, you can kind of slash them between the roles. I think those sorts of guys makes even Brandon Ingram to a certain extent if he's more of your offensive juice because Barnes is value primarily is coming defensively like you could see a world where it works but you're right all these guys need the ball and so I think this segues nicely to our essential question is like

what or who is going to be the key to making this all fit together I think they need to diminish one of those guys to at least a bench roll I think the obvious case would be R.J. Barrett who has clear value just like the battering ram like straight down straight line drive like is an effective way of scoring. I just don't think it fits here because they need more shooting on the court. And frankly, they just need fewer miles to feed

who need the ball. Sure. And so I think like if a Grady Dick or of a Chacobie Walter like ascends into more of the 3&D spot where you just don't, a lower maintenance offensive player whose value comes defensively,

then it makes sense. I just don't know if they're going to get that this year. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I've already read the reports that R.J. is firmly on the, the trade block, which, again, makes sense.

He can't play with Scotty Barnes and Brandon Ingram on the court at the same time. Like, there's just no, he doesn't, like, no defense's respect to shooting, unfortunately, even still in year five or six or whatever the hell it's going to be. And giving him the ball to create and making everybody else kind of get out the way that makes zero sense either. It's just such an unbalanced roster. And I think they have enough, again, in the crummy Eastern Conference sense, like, why can't they be the ninth best team?

Sure. In the East. But, Lord, that's dark. Like, they're better than a 30-win team, which is what they were last season, because of some tanking shenanigans. Like, they were massaging their win-told a little bit. Yes. Massaging?

Absolutely not. Between playing like an actual basketball team for the full season and adding someone as talented as Brandon Ingram, that alone, they will win more games.

They are going to be a more successful team in that sense. But I do think Ingram is kind of low-key the most important player on this team right now. And some of that is because I like the flow

that the Raptors try to play with. Like with Darko Ryakovich's offense, like they move the ball a lot. Like they're trying to get in the right spots, there are too many guys on the floor who shots aren't respected. Like they don't have the spacing for it. There are too many people on the floor who aren't threats when they do get the ball. But all of a sudden you put someone like Brandon Ingram out there who opponents do respect.

Like other NBA players treat Brandon Ingram as a threat. Yeah, like he's a star. And so if you are drafting off of not just like RJ barreling towards the rim, but a Brandon Ingram drive that's drawing two or creating something you can play out of. And then you have all these principles in place of this ball movement. you can start to see the vision of something that could work that relies on a couple things. One, any of these guys hitting shots, literally anybody. Two, Brandon Ingram playing into his more kind of point forwardy sensibilities,

which have been touch and go. And sometimes he holds the ball a little bit too long in a way that's counterintuitive to that flow. You need all of that stuff to work. And you need Scotty Barnes to figure out how to be a part of it. And maybe that's just asking too much. Yeah. Do you want Ingram to almost play into his base impulse,

which is to take control of things because then it diminishes how much you're reliant on Barnes to be this excellent orchestrator of offense which he hasn't typically done to, although I think his playmaking are pretty elite and I think he has a lot of room still to grow there. But does it ultimately long term

suppress Barnes as being that guy? And like how much is Ingram willing to play ball in terms of all of this because they traded for him and then they immediately extended him and there's no longer leverage to suggest like you have to play more of a, you have to take threes. Like he did for a couple games before he was shut down in New Orleans. For a couple games, you say.

Most of the season, it turns out. You just got a couple bruises and we never saw him again. And so it was a starting point at the very least is something different. If he's going to play, if he combines the two guys of like who he is versus someone who takes more threes and isn't as on the ball so vigorously, like can you tap into that or is he just going to be who? I just think if Scotty Barnes is your automatic max rookie extension guy that you should be bringing guys in that compliment what he does, right? If the vision is that he's kind of a version of Draymond with the having the ball and playmaking, but just more offensive juice, quite frankly, like you can't put a skinny guy

on Scotty Barnes and think he's not going to, you know, put him underneath the rim or at the very release, get to the free throw line. Like, he has his strengths that don't involve shooting threes and, you know, traditional shot creation or whatever. I just don't think the guys that exist right now are the complimentary pieces for him. You know, Jay Mark Green again, that's extreme. Like, he honed his skills playing with Steph and Clay Thompson. Like, obviously, that's a blessing.

Everybody can't play with the two greatest shooters. of all time. But I don't even think Toronto's going in that direction. I think it's just like, these guys are big, they're athletes, they have skills, all things that are true.

But like there's no compliment there. I think what gives that some safety net is if the defense is as good as it seemed to be from January first on, as Justin said, the back part of last season. There's always a lot of noise with that stuff.

Justin, I thought you nailed it that in terms of the players who are actually on the floor for a lot of those stretches, a lot of those guys are just like either gone or they're really like second unit players for this team when it's healthy. Yeah, Mabo isn't playing 30 minutes a game. He is certainly not.

And so what are the tradeoffs when you get Ingram out there who is, I promise you, a defender in theory, but not in practice. So disappointing his defensive career so far. But ultimately, like, everything we're talking about, the case to believe in the Raptors is a case that their defense can coalesce and continue, that their offense can coalesce,

that can work, and these guys can figure it out together. The core of this team has not played a single minute together. And sometimes guys roll it out and it just works. I don't think the skill sets tell us this is a team that's just going to work.

If it does, if they do figure it out, it's going to be a longer process where it takes time, it takes development, it takes adjustment on basically everyone involved. If the Raptors came out

and were a top four defense, then I'd be like, okay, well, there's a theory to this team then. It would save a lot. They just play harder than everybody, out physical everybody, and they kind of piecemeal the offense together because they're playing at this elite level of defense.

I don't think they're going to be some world-beating defense. You don't think Yaka-Purto will, like, elite position. Yacquil is a good defender, but like... But also, low-key not the guy he was three years ago. You know, it's like there's been kind of a slow depreciation of the Yaka-Purl experience that I think has gone on, in obscurity because not a lot of people are watching the Raptors play. Yeah.

Yeah. He just won't do things wrong and he's big and he will soak up space. And so I guess that's a certain floor for the defense. I thought Collin Murray Bowles was a really interesting draft pick in that regard, clearly leaning more into the defensive identity. He seems like he's a Dremont type where he's this like destructive front court guy who just doesn't have the same size, but he plays above the dimensions. Offensive is going to be a mess as well. And so like, he is. He is a classic Raptors draft pick.

But you know what? It's working for me. I'm among my most anticipated rookies to see. Just because of like the hands, the instincts, everything you're saying, Justin, in terms of what he could be defensively, yes, he has the ranginess and the length and he fits like the physical profile

of a recent Toronto Raptor, but he's so much more defensive-oriented in a way that I think makes me really excited about the way he could fit with these other guys. I think that's what we would say about every single player. It's like we like them in a vacuum to a certain extent, where you put them all together,

which is how teams are formed in basketball. Yes. It's really tough to you. Any other guys or things? We named a lot of guys. Named a lot of things. Can I name one? Yeah.

Bobby Webster taking over for Masayu Jerry, who was his number two. Interesting transition. Yes, so we're turning the page on the Messiah Jerry era right after we let him at the very least in the room on draft night. I don't know how much he was actually running things. That's weird.

Which is weird. but we're elevating his number two guy to turn the page. I do wonder because it seems like Messiah was pushed out in large part because of perhaps some internal stuff. This could be just a stop gap until they find their next guy. But I don't think anything is changing in terms of the blueprint here if the guy who helped construct it is now the one presiding. When I have my last pod and you guys kicked me out of here because of internal strife, can I sit in the room on the first pot of the new regime? Yeah, watched the glass. Watch the glass when you guys just like subbed me out for Kyle Mann.

I mean, I just want to be a part of it. It's just, it's weird right now in Toronto. And I really don't have a finger on a pulse here. I can see them being good because there's so much talent, but I could also see them being right back in the dregs of the league yet again. All right. Last team on the list for part two. It's a beloved one.

It's for some of us here. It is number 21, the Portland Trailblazers, our first tie. which unfortunately Isaiah went with the team is going to kick off part three of our series and the Trailblazers end up here at 21. This was quite a summer in Portland. Not only because I did some yard work. I ground down my front stoop

so that all the old paint is off there. A lot of people are talking about it. Yeah. A lot of chatter around the neighborhood. Of course. Yeah. What's funny is like I started doing that and the dust was flying everywhere

and both of my guy neighbors came in and checked up on me. It was like a real like siren song of like the domestic dad type. They heard the call. They saw the Home Depot sign instead of a bat signal go up in the air.

Like what you're doing there? Was this the classic like the guys all come and stand around and observe the work being done? A little. It was very king of the hill coded but it was more one on one as opposed to one big grouping there.

Congrats to you and your stoop. It's still a working process. The Portland various. They wish. They should change their G-League team to that. Yeah, how do you feel about the Blazers at 21? Where did you have them? Do you remember? I think I had them slightly ahead of you, but I think Waz had them ahead of me.

I had them at 20. You had them at 19 Waz, and Rob had them at 22. So they'll kind of all around in the same range. Let's go over their off season quickly, because I think that helps kind of instruct where we find them here. Busy, as I mentioned, Joe Cronin and Chauncey Billups extended before the season ended. bringing back the core of a team that showed some promise. Yeah. Toward the end of the last season,

spunky defense. There was something there to work off. We'll talk about that in a bit. They then trade for Drew Holiday, 35-year-old on a pretty hefty contract. Ultimately, ended up being a straight swap for Anthony Simons. So basically a salary dump on both sides,

which was weird because some medical stuff happened. Second round draft fix got taken off the board. Just the one-for-one challenge trade at this point. Then they drafted the international. Man of Mystery, our boy, John Hanson, we'll talk about at Lemp coming up here. Then they bring back a franchise legend, Damien Lillard. They were throwing as we're recording this on Sunday, a pep rally for him to welcome him back. We deserved.

Sure. And I will tell you, it felt like half the city was there. That's crazy. Everyone is very excited. This is a football Sunday in America. And they're out there just saying hi to Dame, as he said, I assume. some banal things about being excited about being back. I thought you were talking about there being like a Timbers game going on.

I thought we were talking about the other footy. No. Timbers, I think you're only doing okay in soon. They'll rally though, as we all do in Portland. And then the team ultimately sold in principle to Tom Dundon, the owner of the Carolina Hurricanes of the NHL. That probably the transfer power probably won't happen until later in the season at earliest. But that is in the mix there.

So that's a lot to happen. Yeah. A ton. ultimately I find myself a little bit mixed and I do think they as an organization are probably caught in between the two eras, the future and the past year. I think the bringing back Dame is probably the prime example of that. At first, I think a lot of people were very excited to have him back, especially on the deal that he's on. Franchise legend, like I've never been in a place where a team and a city loves a guy that much. There's something special there and there's something

to be said that beyond basketball and cap strategies and all this other stuff, that is very important. For sure. And it's clearly important to the franchise's bottom line because they're holding pep rallies before the season even gets started there. But it is really kind of like because the team that they built while he was away is still very much in place. So it's almost like asking an ex to join your new relationship in this new polyamorous thing where we're combining the new and the old. Do you have a lot of experience with this? Not yet, but it would be important long enough. And I think that's where they are right now.

They have a lot of pieces that would have been good for the Dame era. And so when he's healthy, he's not going to play this season. Makes sense. But then they're also ushering in Yang and Scoot. There's a lot of optimism for. So it's a little bit more mixed. I think that's probably why we find them here at 21st. So Jeremy Grant is like the couch that your ex bought that you ended up with somehow and is like still in your house.

Right. The pet that just like still around. Again, all the progress last season I think was very real. There was like a noticeable shift in the temperament of the team, in the focus of the team, in the defense, in Chauncey Billups' coaching. Like, I thought they just took a huge step forward. That is like continued in theory. Bring back Drew Holiday to an already defensive-minded team. Great.

But you do wonder how all the pieces are going to fit in the sense of like, for one, I don't know. Are Drew and Jeremy Graham both going to start? And if so, at whose expense? Exactly. What should happen versus what will happen, I think is the question. Yes. what should happen. What should happen is Jeremy should come off the bench.

I think his best days are behind him. He did not play well last year. It's actually a running joke amongst some of my meaning and brethren that he doesn't play after the trade that luck. No. And he hasn't for a very long time. I don't think he was happy toward the end of last season that he did not get traded,

but he finds himself back in the same. I think what will happen because Chauncey leans on veterans and on defense is they will probably start Drew, Tumani, Denny, Jeremy Donovanclink. Oh. Because you give credit to the vets. Yeah.

But what should happen is I think Drew should start in the back court with scoot and you should bring Jeremy off the bench. That would make a lot of sense to me. I think in terms of the shape of this team, a lot of what makes it possible and makes them good is Denny and Tumani's like versatility, their ability to kind of move around the board, guard a bunch of different kinds of players. Denny's offensive facilitation is so critical in terms of the guards that you can play them with.

Like, they make a lot of this stuff possible. Sometimes I think that can let you be a little too cute or lean a little too much on your veterans because these guys are giving you so much and you can move them around the board. But I would love to see Scoot get a real shot at this, especially in a post-Anfrey Simon's era. Like, give him the reins and- What's the point of doing that if you're not going to give this guy the shot to be the guy? And I think he will. And that brings us to our existential question is, is Scoot a guy? And I think part of it is just the timing.

I think Dame basically having a season off before he gets to play next year because he's hurt, gives him an opportunity to see what he has there. I also think the team is constructed, as Rob is saying, for a guy to basically orchestrate and like to organize all of these wings that lean defense and shooting, but lack some of the on-ball skills that you need. That's why I think Yang, in the vision for him, makes sense with these guys. He is orchestrating and kind of activating all these various defensive wings. And clinging a little bit too.

Like there's some high post passing here that I think could work for everybody. But the critical way in which the high post passing works or running offense through Denny on the second side or whatever it is, Scoot has to hit shots. He has to, and he had two months where he did. And then he has a long- half a season. Half a season where he did. The rest of the time, it can be a little touch and go. And so what kind of spot-up shooter is Scoot Henderson, I think is a just a critical piece of his developmental puzzle?

Yeah, I think one of the things that people were excited about. like he had this reputation for being somebody that works really hard at it. And so there's kind of been a trust that if the shot is improving, that it's real because he's working his tail off at it, I think to me, if they come out of this season and neither scoot nor Shaden Sharper Sena's foundational pieces, like, what did we just do for three years in Portland? Like trade for Dennyovdia is the answer. That's like...

It's possible. He comes out being the best young guy that they have there. That's tough, man, because obviously Aiton was a joke. Rob Williams can't stay on the floor. Yep. And, you know, it was this idea like, all right, youth movement, especially around those two guys, specifically, these very high lottery picks.

And if we just finished this season, like, yeah, these guys are mega expendable. Yeah. and it's Dame and Drew Holiday and Kamara and Denny Avdia. Yeah. That's weird. I think it's telling that we got to this point in the conversation. We throw away Shaden is kind of like a cast off.

Like I think he is ancillary. I think he might be the most talented player on the roster, but will he ever get it? I think is a very much open question. He could start ultimately, but I think he played his best basketball coming off the bench because Tronty finally put his foot down and was like, no, you got to kind of have to have it.

have to earn this. And I just don't know where he is. We've talked about it in the past. I just think he's a little sleepy as a person, as a personality, and like things haven't clicked for him. And so at this point, I would say in terms of like what you're expecting, I think the reason why you're hearing so much scoot and like can scoop be the guy has won. I think it's timing. I think it's wish casting because he has his opportunity. Of course. I think like he's at an important year before they have to decide on an extension. But I also think Waz is 100% right. That dude gets it. I think he is a worker and he at a end of season press conference at the end of last season. And he was just going over all of the technical things that went into him kind of turning the page.

Yeah. And you could kind of see the way he thinks about things. And I think he's just like such a grinder and thinks about these things on such a granular level that I could see why the franchise is like, oh, he might turn it around because I think he gets it at that level. I mean, the reason he can have a press conference like that at the end of the season is because he did have a course correction. He went very quickly from rookie year.

I don't know about the future of this guy's game. The rookie year was horrible. It was really bad. And in his sophomore, you could see the elements starting to come together. Look, he needs a lot more reps. He needs to figure it out. I think in particular, who he is as a score, kind of like how he fits into it, like a sophisticated NBA offense,

is something he needs to sort out. But the reads are there and you can see them. Like, you can see him processing the game in real time in a way that, yes, is messy and the way that it is for all young players. but represent something fundamentally different than whether Shaden Sharp is actually paying attention and locked in on this possession or not or whether he decides it's Shaden Sharp Time,

which Shaden Sharp Time is about the most scintillating thing in the NBA. So it's like, I get it. I get why he would be tempted in that direction. But when the broader culture of the team right now is high-intensity, high-focused defense, Shaden Sharp does not feel like he is rowing in the same direction. And he's not good enough offensively on his own

to be like bailing out the team's offensive. of limitations. Yeah. The scoot conversation is funny because even at the beginning of last season, I think you would see a lot of people being like, that's it.

He doesn't get it. Right. I think there's probably text messages in our group chat, group chat that probably speak to that where it's just like, this guy's done. But like, as soon as the shooting came around,

you saw things click into place. And now a lot of that shooting success, which you should mention, so January 1st is we're using as a marker for things turning around, 37 and a half, three point percentage. Yeah. Pretty good.

41 game sample. That's pretty good. But a lot of those shots, people were seating to him because they're like, go ahead, bro. Yeah. And so he got to make those first. You do.

He made them. That's step one. Now, the next step I do think is inside the arc there because the at-rim stuff is very challenging. I think he is ultimately going to be a below the rim guy. I thought coming into the draft he's more of like a Russell Westbrook, explode over the top. But like he's going to have to be a crafty, Mike Conley sort of finisher.

And I think the floater range is really going to decide whether or not he's going to be a high-level player versus just like a, a rotation guy, and to that point, according to Synergy, he was 481st out of 542 players. Jesus. Scoring at the rim last season. Woof. Big old yikes. Still somehow better than Jeremy Grant.

Well, if you can find a clip of Jeremy Grant attempting a shot around the rim last season, I'll believe it when I see it. I don't mean to bag on Jeremy because he might be one of the sweetest humans I've met in the NBA, just like one of the best guys. He's also very capable of being a good player. He's just been out in the wilderness for years now. Yeah. But Portland's a serious, for the second half of the season, they wear a serious outfit.

Yeah. I know it's like cliche, but if a team is defending at that level, that's a team that's locked in. This isn't a team that's just taking it as like, oh, we're not going to make the playoffs. This is kind of a developmental kind of team. Who cares? Like, they took it serious. For sure. And I think, you know, if you as a veteran can't get on that program, that's kind of crazy.

And they're a little different from the Raptors in that way, where we were just talking about Toronto's defensive success last season, how many different players are coming in. Portland is turning over its rotation. Like they're losing big minute players, but they're losing many of their worst defenders. And replacing them with guys like Drew Holiday or replacing them with like,

now Matisse Thibel is going to play more minutes if he can stay healthy. Like, he shot out well toward the end of last season. Yeah. And like those things in concert should make them even more formidable defensively. You know, assuming that they're able to maintain that sort of effort, and intensity. It brings us right to naming some guys,

because we haven't talked a lot about Donovan Klingin at this point. 7.5 block percentage would have been second in the NBA behind only Wembe last season if you played an amount of minutes that would have made him eligible for that leaderboard.

He also had some games where he was like, he's just completely changing this game with his ability to protect the rim. I mean, there were times where Zion was like baffled and Zion will power through just like a dump truck if you go.

I will give Klingin credit as well again at the end of the city press conference. He acknowledged the fact that he had had some weight issues, which I've dinged them before in the past. And I think it clearly gotten back to him because I think a lot of people were talking about, he just couldn't stay on the floor because he wasn't conditioned.

He has looked much better over the offseason. I think he's seeing the opportunity to be a starter and is getting toward the. The offense is a work in progress. He needs to be able to catch the ball. He needs to be able to finish the ball. But if he's just on the court longer and is a defensive guy, you have to factor in there,

that's going to make a difference. I do think he will probably be the starter. I do think Rob Williams, when he can play, is still quite good. As a council of people who are trying to find minutes for Yang Hansen, do we think they're going to roll out any, like, double big stuff? Like we've seen, you don't think there's any chance of it. No, Chauncey's been asked that, at least until we're recording this, there wasn't any plans for it. That's disappointing.

I mean, clearly they like leaning into the very, like, rangy, wingy style that's worked for them so far. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't hate seeing some young clinging minutes. No. Not a Twin Towers. Yeah. With young, Young stroking it from outside. There's too much limitations.

Brings back Yokit's ner. That's what I'm saying. That kind of works sometimes. I don't know what to tell you. It's just, it's too limited. And they've just had too much success. Modis has been with the wings

kind of leading the charge, right? So you got to reward that. But there's going to be two weeks of January. when like a couple of blazers are injured. And it's like, you know what, let's just do it. And it's going to be glorious. And I look forward to it. If they start tanking, that might be the starting lineup.

And because we're talking around Yang, who was their draft pick who came out of nowhere. I have to say, run for the ages this summer. In the photos you see popping up randomly on like an Instagram or like your friend of a friend. My guy, this is just the algorithm feeding you what you want to see. It knows exactly what I want. But the funny thing is, it's always at the, like, the most common areas. It's, like, Costco or a mall. Like, Blazer players just...

Young specifically. Like, I ran into Yang. At Costco. At Costco. Yeah. Buying, like, some nugget. You know what I mean? That's so funny, bro.

To which Kyle Mann has now dubbed him the Kirkland Yokage. I mean, I love it. It's pretty good. We're excited for that. We're excited about the rest of these preseason and power rankings. We'll get back to you next one. week with part three. We're going to start talking about some actually good basketball teams.

Yes. After two plus hours, we're going to get to the meat of the league. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back next time. We'll talk to you then.