The Ringer NBA Show - Preseason Power Rankings, Part 3 | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are here for Part 3 of their preseason power rankings. This time, they are revealing the teams they ranked 20 through 16. Intro: (0:00:00) Team no. 20: (8:33) Team no. 19: (28:13) Team no. 18: (36:55) Team no. 17: (48:48) Team no. 16: (1:05:20) Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Varyer and joining me live in person in Los Angeles, where it is hot as Mordor in the end of September, for whatever reason, Big Was, Rob Mahoney. We are here for part three, part three of the preseason NBA power rankings, an annual tradition like none other doing it in person. We're doing it a little earlier than we typically do here. We are. I'm surprised you're leading with Mount Doom.

We're just going straight for the volcanic, that really the true source of the piping hot takes, if we're being honest. That's true. We haven't gotten to the one ring. Yeah. Or the teams that are in competition for it. Not as... I really don't know what y'all are talking about.

Y'all might as well as be speaking Mandarin. Elvish in this case. But, you know what? Because we are pre-taping, we cannot have our timely news-oriented banter. I have proposed, venturing into the New York Times is 36 questions that lead to love. This seemed to confuse you, was. The premise of what we're doing. with these questions.

Yeah, because the first time we did this, you talk about questions that lead to love, then you immediately asked, have you ever contemplated your death? It got pretty dark. What that means? I'm like, oh, okay, this must be a different kind of love. Well, first of all, I didn't write the list.

Don't blame me. Yeah. My favorite part about this whole exercise, just to interrupt briefly, is that we're doing this almost as like a little bit of a placeholder in case there is news in order to put at the top of these podcast. So it's possible that you listening at home don't get any of this. And this is specifically for us.

But they would benefit from our long-term building of bonds and growing of intimacy as friends and podcasters together, which is what this is about. Which is why it's okay to venture into some serious stuff, was it? Oh, it's more than okay. It's just, you know, when I think about love and magazines, it's like, you know, L magazine. It's trying to teach us how to give a blow job or something, right? Like, this is a little bit different. not that kind of program. That one is not on the list.

But you know what? We haven't gotten to the last segment yet. So we'll see what's ahead. Today, our question, before making a telephone call, do you ever rehearse what you're going to say? And if you do, why? Justin, what do you think? Do you ever rehearse what you're going to say on the phone?

Well, okay. Is this speaking to someone that you love? Take it whichever direction you want? In general, yes, especially if it's a work situation. Yeah. I think through those certain things. I think through a lot of, I preemptively think there were a lot of conversations that I have, almost like as a rehearsal.

Yeah. You go full Nathan Field there. A little bit, yeah. How does that make you feel? Like, why do you do that? Because I don't think I'm as nimble on my toes as I perhaps should be. You want the reps ahead of time. Yeah, I want to make sure what I say is what I want to say.

And so I think through the possible scenarios. Do you feel like... Podcasting? I mean, it is a lot like podcasting. Do you feel like you're pretty accurate in predicting the twists and turns and detours of where these conversations might... No. but it's that whole journalism thing

where like if you're prepared you can be a little bit more nimble when things come at you. I'm gonna guess Waz does not rehearse what he's gonna say on the phone. No, I don't. Although the only time I can remember rehearsing

a phone call is back when I was younger because I'm a millennial and like you're in sixth grade and you want to talk to the girl that you like when you go home, you have to call her house where one of her parents might pick up. Yep.

So it's like, I want to sound polite, but also this is not an emergency. So it's like cool if you don't put her on the phone either. So it's like, I'm like, am I going to say hello, may I please speak to such and such? Am I going to introduce myself first? Am I going to like, um, is this, hi, Mrs. Such and such like I did in sixth grade.

I definitely did. think about what I was going to say in the event that a parent, especially if it was the father, which was always just like, that's the height of awkwardness, calling a house as a young, you know, growing man to speak to some dude's daughter.

Like, so I did use to prepare for that. It's also some woman's daughter, too. I'm sure it's like no less. It's different with fathers. Is it? Oh, my God. Rob, come on. I mean, it's still pretty awkward.

Like, you've seen bad boys, too. They never have the mom Waves the gun as the potential suitor. Of course, I've seen, who has not seen bad boys too? Everybody's seen it. Come on. But they never have the mom wave a gun at the potential suitor, right? It's always the dad.

That's like the thing. You're right. So when I was younger, I would do that. When I was dating, I would definitely, it's not that I would want to prepare what I would say. I wanted to be in the right mood. Like if I wanted to be in a cheerful mood, I knew the conversation would end up there.

If I wanted to be like, yo, I need to be lay back. I need to be like, cool. You know what I mean? Like whatever I say is going to flow out of that mindset. You're setting the vibe. Yes, within my own, like, spirit. What do you do to set the vibe for this podcast? Absolutely.

Like, first of all, the thing about doing. this show with the both of you guys. Y'all is so different in temperament and approaches. Like, I just know y'all gonna each give me stuff to go off of. I don't need to prepare. Like, I know you guys are gonna come with stuff.

Like the New York Times. Look, you're absolutely right. We are over-prepared. That's true. This is how we balance each other out. Like, not only will I prepare for the work call that you're talking about Justin or the personal call that you're talking about.

It's like, if I'm calling the sanitation department, I'm like, what is the most concise way I can relay this message to get off this phone call as soon as possible? Like, I'm trying to get in and out. I'm not trying to small talk with anybody under any circumstances if I can avoid it. And I'm also not trying to add any confusion to my very specific request. You're all about the efficiency. I'm all about the efficiency. Again, that's, that's again, even with the same thing.

I've recently had a situation with a certain car rental. company. It's not one of the big dogs. This is like a company that kind of does Airbnb for cars. Okay. I got rear-ended on the way to that same wedding that we were talking about pre-show. I got rear-ended,

so obviously it's like the guy's fault smashed into me on the Garden State Parkway. I submit my docs, police report, all of that. Would you believe these people took my deposit and said it's my job

to file a claim with that guy's insurance. What? Because the damage on the car was below a certain threshold. So it's like, we figure we just nip it off of you and you go figure it out with the insurance. Jesus. So when I called these people, it was like, remain calm. Like, you're going to say everything that you need to say,

but like, don't actually behave in the way that you feel in the moment. So that's what happens with me. Like, I got to, I just got to get my, my energy and my spirit right. And I think the phone call is going to go the way it needs to go. I appreciate you practicing restraint. It does take a little warming up

to rein yourself in in that way. I just let it fly in it. Yeah, very here. I can imagine. Very year on that call. There's no doubt. I am truthful, you know. I speak my truth.

Literally. There's no question that you do. Yeah. Well, I thought that one was way more revealing than the depth one. It's got a little... I don't know. I learned a lot about both of you from that one.

But look, the idea in a dating center, is like, okay, we're skipping past the like, oh, how many siblings do you have? What do you do? Let's just dig into it. And so I think we're digging into it. I wish I had this when I was out on the scene in Los Angeles. It's never too late.

Never. Ever too late. Got damn right, my friends. All right. Well, we want to have Woz say all of his hot, passionate opinions about our first team on the list here. We're talking about the Boston Celtics. Yeah. Who tied with the Blazers, the last thing when you talked about in part two,

just to recap as we typically do. We aggregated all the rankings, as you know. Isaiah Blakely broke the ties. He, surprisingly, or not, picked the Celtics over the Blazers in this one. Isaiah, a passionate Boston Celtics fan. So I don't know if you guys have caught it, but Jalen Brown, as he's going into the season

where he's going to be a bigger part of the Celtics and everything that they do because of all the various guys they got rid of and also the injury to Jason Tatum. he's already taken the spotlight, so to speak. I don't know if you guys have caught this recently. I had a lot of podcast appearances. He had like a little bit of a schick where he would FaceTime all of his Boston Celtics teammates. None of them picked up.

But then Jeff Teague face-time, Jason Tatum, he immediately picked up. So became a little bit of a thing here. Also, the day before we're recording this, he showed up at Bill Nye, the Science Guys, Walk of Fame, Hollywood Walk of Fame. I did see this. Introduction. Why? I don't know. I would love to know the connection.

But he's doing a lot right now. And he's going to have to do a lot for the Boston Celtics this season. He's going to be doing a lot. Will it all be good? Probably not. I think a lot of the guys in this team are going to be miscast relative to what they should be on a great team. On the kinds of teams the Celtics have been, that's okay. This is a like figure it out kind of year for them.

I don't think there's a lot of disillusion about the fact that they would be as good as a team with a healthy Jason Tatum or with Chris Saps, Sforzengis at full strength, or with Drew. Holiday at full strength. They're just not that kind of team anymore. And I think that's okay. But we're all going to have to get used to that in the way we talk about them and think about them and their place within the Eastern Conference hierarchy. Yeah, I just hated their offseason.

Not in the sense that we knew they had to shed salary. And to a certain extent, you understand the poor Zingis and, you know, even the Drew Holiday deal. Like, I understand all of that stuff. it just, I don't know, it took on the character of a completely giving up on the season. And not that they were going to win the championship this season, but I think management, like, top down is sort of set an expectation that there are no expectations for this season, by nature of the kind of offseason that they had.

And that's why I'm lower on them than, say, Isaiah, my season. be. And I think it's not just because the team is way less talented. It's like there's just a sort of reshuffling of what's most important. Yes. And if Jalen Brown goes down, if he could come back in two weeks, he's going to take four this year. Right? Like, that's what I think this type of season is going to be. And so that's why I'm just way more down on the Celtics than maybe some other people might be. You had them 24th in your ranking. 24. Below the Pelicans, below the Kings.

So you're betting that, like, things start to go astray. And then they just completely embrace that. I could see it. The thing that was disappointing for me this offseason was after they dumped Porzengis, they got back George Nying and then they dumped him in a salary dump. They were dumping dumps at a certain point. To me, based on the order of operations, it felt like they dumped George Nying because they got Chris Boucher, who is better George Nying.

So there's kind of an order of operations thing. Chris Boucher is a better George Nying? Is he? Yeah. Absolutely. What? Less reliable, I would say. I think you know what you're getting with Nyang.

Yeah, someone who moves at the speed of a minivan and will get played off the floor because he can't guard anybody. Well, I don't think they're played off of what floor, Rob, we're talking about. We're talking about a Wednesday in February. He's not getting played off in Charlie Mornings. Well, but therein lies the problem. Like Chris Boucher, I hear you not the most rock steady player in the world, but holds up a little bit defensively, has some range in terms of his ability to alter shots, has a

similar stretch, not as good of a shooter, but a similar concept in terms of where he fits into what they do. He's not a shooter. Chris Boucher? Yeah. I think he's a little bit of a shooter. Okay. I just think that was a money move and not a we want to still be respectable move. Like the idea that

Jalen Brown, Peyton Pritchard, Derek White are the foundation for like automatic respectability. And again, that takes no injuries into account. I just don't see that.

I really think they're one six-week stretch, four-week stretch. Again, the type of stretch that probably, if Tatum is here, and they're still chasing championships, only ends up being three and a half, get stretched to six weeks. That's going to be happening all season long. That's why they were my 24-friend team. I think this brings us to our existential question is,

which of the title holdovers, namely Brown, White, Missoula are going to let them punt on the season. I think Brown, first and foremost, is the type of, let's call them headstrong character. Sure. Who is unwilling to really go along with the plane in most cases. There's a history there in Boston that has bred that probably. But is the type of guy who I think would want to see this as his opportunity to shine, not only because there had been some stuff in years past where overlooked for Team USA for Derek White,

but also, you know, he's been kind of diminishing the peckyce in the package. or everyone kind of looks at Jason Tatum is kind of the guy. They try to sell them as a duo, but is it really that much? I can see him being like, this is my opportunity. But how much will that matter? Is there enough between him and White and just the remnants of the days gone by? You've got the Hauser's, you've got the Baylor Shiremans, perhaps. Sure.

Is there enough there to basically force whatever plans the Celtics have about tanking and getting a juicy draft pick being like, no, we're not doing that? I just don't think the draft pick is going to be juicy enough. Like, I just don't think they're going to get into top five odds kind of territory. I think they're going to be a little too good. And some of that is Derek White and Jalen Brown. Some of it, look, admittedly is a good outcome for this season is if two or three of these guys who are either being elevated or are flyers who are being brought in have good productive

seasons where they take a step forward, that's a positive result. I also just think there's enough here that they're just not going to be as bad as the Utah Jazz and the Brooklyn Nets and the Charlotte Horn. It's like the bottom is so low on those other teams. And this is a well-coached team with good professional players who have a lot of playoff experience and who know just how to run basic functional offense and defense. Yes, their center rotation is completely remodeled and a bit of a liability with all due respect to Nemesh Keda, but like they have a lot to figure out.

But there's also just a lot of pillars here that I kind of inherently trust. I love Derek White just as next as the next, just as much as the next NBA blogger. I don't think he is your traditional third best players, so to speak, in the sense that he can just easily, like, you know, when D. Wade would take a game off during the Hedels era, Chris Bosch could come in and do the D-Wade role. Derek White is not coming in and doing a Tatum role.

I would also say Chris Bosch is not a typical third. best player on a team. Sure. That's fair. That's fair. I'm just saying like, they're not going to be that good. White's more of a connector.

Yes. When fully healthy. Yes. Right? And to go back to Jalen Brown, I love what he's doing in a sense that I want the guy that I gave $300 million to assume that mantle, right? To be like, yeah, we're still going to win this season.

We're still going to be competitive, blah, blah, blah. However, again, and I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here. Your management does not agree. They do not think you're the type of player that could have led them to respectability. Or else they wouldn't have treated the roster like this. They wouldn't have tore it down to the studs in the way that they did. Like, let's just play devil's advocate. Let's just say it was Brown who went down for the whole year last playoffs.

Yep. Do they treat this season this way? That's a good question. Absolutely not. They don't. I don't think they do. I hear everything you're saying, and, like, spiritually, I agree that this is a, like, we're just going to take a step back kind of motioning in season from the Celtics,

from a management perspective. Would you, I know you feel you're down on that idea, but are you up on Jalen Brown to a degree where you would steer into it? Like, would you believe in a Jalen Brown Celtics team where you would be adding pieces. I think there's a middle ground of not diluting yourself into thinking Jalen Brown could like, yeah, turn this into. to something incredible and accepting like, look,

why are we spending $450 on a roster that has no chance of winning a championship? I understand that. They could have shed salary. But I think, like, the degree to which they did it was, like, some new ownership shit. Where it's like, yo, I just put billions down

do the savings where I can't. But what if they just like Josh Monat? Might not. Might not. But, yes. I'm going to say this. Not to carry water for the Celtics. There's plenty of other people who can do that.

Drew Holiday did not have an amazing season. Chris Hapts-Forsingis did not have an amazing season. There are also two guys who I would not necessarily want on a shorthanded team to be stretched out with minutes and roll and usage. And so the idea of we're going to take a hard look at what our finances look like and say that this is the year we're going to compensate. Like we're going to concede some of this stuff so that we can hopefully kind of. reset the luxury tax clock a little bit, that we can get out from under some of this financial burden, that we can bring in Anthony Simons on a short-term deal and say, like, is this a guy who can be part of our team? Or can he at least help us get up shots in the meantime? I think this is the

middle ground, honestly. I think this is the closest thing you're going to get. The reasonable decisions in a vacuum. Yes. And so, yes, I can see why they'd make them independent of who it is that is going to be leading the team this season. But question with Brown, last season, Shea Gildesis Alexander led the league in field goal attempts at 21.8 which is actually not that many. Does Brown beat that this year? He might.

I think especially because he's not going to get to the line the way that Shea does, right? So it's like the field goal attempts are going to be super high. Yeah, and if they're still playing Missoula ball, they're going to have a lot of possessions. Put up shots. He's going to be encouraged to just Chuck. Yep.

And I do want to say, like, I'd love to be proven wrong like for the Celtics to be a respectable team this year for the entire year. I would love for them to be competitive. That's more competitive teams we get to watch. Yeah. I just, I just feel spiritually they've leaned into the idea that they don't want to be. Luca led the league the year before that at 23.6.

I think that's in play too. I think that's in play. I wouldn't be surprised if he's putting up like 25 shots. Especially if he wants to be that player. Like if that is an important thing to Jalen Brown. And I think we've been led to believe. that it is and let's find out if that's true because yeah, Derek White is going to scale up

a little bit in usage but not that much. Ultimately, it's going to be a Jalen Brown and Anthony Simons, a Peyton Pritchard kind of question as far as who is taking a ton of shots. Well, that brings us to naming some guys. I assume Pritchard starts. I guess there's a question of whether Simon starts with them or supplants him in the starting lineup.

So you're thinking by default Simons as a six man. Yeah, and I ultimately think that's his best role on a good team. I've always said that he's probably best suited as sort of a man where he's like an overqualified sixth man. But if you need to start him, you need to finish with them, that makes sense. It sounds like though that they want to get Pritchard the opportunity

to at least be the starting point cards, see what they have in it. I would assume based on just track record. He's a veteran. He's established himself there. Missoula tends to reward those sorts of guys. He will get first crack at it. But so I'm guessing it's going to be Pritchard, brown, white to start with. then maybe Kada.

And then... I think Kada, it seems like has the inside track on the job. Houser? I think it could be Houser and... Houser's playing power forward. I mean, kind of. You know, one of the two.

They don't have the best power forward options. Luca Garza, my friend. Luca Garza will get his shot. Absolutely will get his shot. I think Sam Houser has proven to be the kind of player. And, like, you could see this in the deal he got as well, where he's just good to have a round. And I would not be totally shocked if the next great Celtics team,

he is the fifth starter on that team when that time comes. Not because he's incredibly versatile, but because he does some very concentrated things well, including shoot the hell out of the ball. And he's not targetable on defense in the way that a lot of shooters are. I could see him just, again, just kind of hanging around being a part of this thing. And I think something to remember is whatever the Celtics become,

yeah, they're probably still going to play some version of Missoula ball. But they're going to look very different. They're not going to be as, roundly balanced as the Celtics have been. They're not going to be able to afford necessarily a holiday or a Porzingis in the future. They're going to have to have to do with a different sort of model. And that model might be some of the role players look a little bit more like Sam Houser than they do Drew Holiday. I always love when an organization, especially one that's been successful, has a down year, has a dip, some injuries.

The Warriors went through this. And they get to really just bring in guys you could tell that they've always liked, but they haven't had the opportunity to do so. the Warriors had some interesting guys, other organizations have cycled through. Maybe some guys in the fringes are in the G League and brought them up, developed them that way. The Celtics are just like retreads

of like four teams. And a lot of their, huh, guys are, I would say not encouraging in the long term. So we got Chris Boucher. Yeah. We got Luca Garza. We got Josh Minot.

I guess you can throw Simons in there, although he was really just like salary in order to make the holiday trade. Like, I don't feel great about it. a lot of these guys. I think, I mean, they're kind of two categories. Simons, I think, is more than just salary because I think they do just need somebody who's going to shoot. They do just need somebody who's going to get him up. And he's a better option than trying to do that with the mid-level or something like that. So I get the thinking there. Housh to me, like the front

court situation overall, pretty dangerous. Pretty bad. Pretty dicey. Um, Nemesh Kada's going to have to be good. And even if he is, I don't know that it's going to be enough. Like, is he going to be a starting caliber center in the league for a long time. I honestly don't know. And if it's not him, I think you're looking at Xavier Tillman minutes. I think you're looking at Boucher at the 5, which is not his best position. You're 100% looking at Xavier Tobin. Well, I mean, but it's a big time.

Still in the G league? I think he's out of the, I think he's out of the league right now. I saw him trying on fireman helmets the other day. Okay. I don't know. Sure. That's the thing he could do. Luca Garza, I think, could also play minutes at the five.

Yeah. Luca Garza is one of those guys who like per minute has always like gotten buckets. The wolves tried to stretch him out to see if he could shoot. He can't really shoot or he hasn't yet. He's much more of like an energy big, like an energy mobile big who will get buckets on the rumbling, like kind of rolls to the rim and offensive rebounds. Exactly. That kind of stuff. That's okay.

I'm a little more interested in Josh Mynod at this point. Of course you are. In part, he's like actually young, like 22 years old. Like actually young actually has some promise. In particular, I think who he could be as a defender and a shot blocker on the wing or, kind of swooping in is exciting. I don't know what he can do in the half court offensively. He doesn't have a lot of very tangible skill yet,

which is not a reassuring thing to hear. But turning defense into offense, he can be really good. If they want to up their pace, if they're going to still be in flow, if they're going to play Derek White basketball, then I think Josh Minot kind of fits into the formula of that. All right. Number 19 on our list,

a bit of a controversy here as we're going through this. So we originally did our ballots in the Philadelphia 76ers, came out as our number 19 team. But before we recorded, Tyler Hero ends up being hurt. He'll miss the start of the season. At least that's where we're being told. As of now, as we're recording this. And I think there's some debate of whether or not we want to put the Sixers here

or the Heat where the team currently slotted in at number 18. You would probably advocate for the Sixers being higher. I definitely would. I would say the Sixers fall into one of two categories, similar to what I was saying about the Celtics. It's like you either believe that they're going to be held. and thus they'll probably be a pretty good team or you're just not buying that and they'll ultimately be probably around where they were last year. I think it's an either or situation as opposed to like, I don't think they're just going to be okay.

Before you get into why you think the sixers are good, Rob, when is Joelle and B. coming back? I don't know. Is he coming back this year? I do not want to be painted into the corner that says that they're going to stay healthy because I simply don't believe it and I'll buy it. here's the thing a sixers team without joel and bead might still be better than the heat like this is still a really talented team with a lot of interesting players on it yeah joel takes into a whole different level a really talented team i think they're pretty talented still pretty young and offensive leaning yeah but yeah like they'd be they'd be dramatically different like anytime you miss an mvp caliber creator and defender your whole team changes i just look at that miami roster and i'm like what is the upward mobility for the heat yes they're going to be professional the Floor is going to be a little higher than teams like the Sixers because we know when the bottom drops out on Philly, it drops way, way out. We just saw it. Horrible to watch, horrible to experience, terrible basketball. The heat are not going to be that.

But a good version of the Sixers is just so much better than a decent to good version of the heat. We've also, we should mention, we've seen some photos of Joelle and B on a basketball court looking sort of slimmer. I don't know if he looks like just Zion Williamson. but... I think the 2001 Sixers jersey is also a flattering cut. I fucking love that jersey. It's a good cut.

We're old enough to wear that jersey used to be like dated and so they went back to the classic ones. And now those look cool in comparison because we've seen the classic ones. Yes, the thick shoulder. I was never a fan of that.

The shimmering. Yeah. Thick shoulder, Sixers, error. That was kind of gross to me. But I'm looking at the roster that Rob Bihoni

just called so talented. And I'm just... I say so talented. I think it's talented. I get it. You love Trending Watford. I do. But like, it's Kelly Ubray.

Yep. Andre Drummond. Eric Gordon, who might have been the one that snitched on Embedddardy. Like, what is this talent? You're skipping Tyrese Maxie.

You're skipping BJ Edgecombe who they just drafted. Who's a rookie who's not going to be good. But as explosive as hell, and I think, and talented. Do we say Grimes? Quentin Grimes, who we'll say the latest reporting as of a recording, we don't know in what capacity he will be back. If he will be back. He's currently a restricted free agent. Jared McCain, who's coming back from injury, was awesome in his time last year. So, like, they have a back court and a perimeter rotation that is interesting and fun and potentially explosive. That's what I'm talking about. And Paul George, I don't know what, whatever you want to expect of Paul George.

Well, I think Waz and I agree that we should keep the six. at 19. Fine. At least for now. But I think this is a good segue into our existential question, which is like, is this team actually more fun if Joel Embed just like never comes back? He just doesn't exist. Because you kind of laid out the case right forward.

You could be young and fun. You could. And like move up and down the court. Like look what you had at the end of last season, just free of all the garbage that you went through in order to get there. It's like, yes, it was very low stakes basketball. Yes. But I think that's what a Sixers fan wants right now because they've tried to be on the elite level for so long and tried so hard, we should mention, gone through just a river of shit in order to just have a team that's able to compete.

I think just low stakes, fun basketball is exactly what they need in their lives. So you think what we saw from the Sixers at the end of last season is a good scenario? I think with better players in that sort of format. Yeah. Because I think between Maxie, let's say Grimes, penciling in, and Edgecom and then maybe Paul George as your one through four. That's kind of fun. I think Maxie at the one, Paul George playing consistently and basically being the de facto four. And then, you know, the Grimes and the McCain, like, as their guards again, I don't see it small forward in there anywhere, but whatever.

I get that as fun, but they're not going to win games consistent. They're just not. And the Joelle thing, like, I don't know how you read that ESPN story from the summer. I forget the brother's name who wrote it. He did an incredible profile of Joelle and B. Please forgive me. I don't see how there's any optimism about Joelle and his team after reading that. like just the idea that nobody can even say

what the actual issue is with the need. Yeah. How to make it better, what the expectation should be. And then you consider all the baggage that came before. And I think so long as Joelle's presence is looming around the team, I don't know how you build something positive out of that. Yeah. I think it's really hard to.

I think the older I get, I'm just a bigger juju guy. I think that's just... I've always said that about you. Big jujuju guy. Big jujuju guy. But this is kind of becoming the theme of this pot is the juju. And this, I think, is what separates teams in this range, which have some good things going for them, but maybe not enough juju to elevate into the next class and maybe like a little too much talent to be in the dregs of the league.

The Sixers are living there, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, speaking of the bad juju, can you guys name the opening day lineup last year for the Philadelphia 76ers? I don't remember who was heard at that time. Did Max even play? Opening day. Maxy play. So we got Maxi.

Yep. And B did not. B did not. Paul George did not. He did not. No. Ubre did. Ubre did. Yep.

So we got two. I want to say Eric Gordon did. Eric Gordon was your starting two guard. Who would they, Maxi, Ubre. I mean, Drummond, I would think. Yep.

Gordon, Drummond. One more. He's no longer with the team. Yahu Seli. No. Oh, that's a good guess, though. K.J. Martin. Yeah.

Wow. My God. Currently not with any team. So Maxi, Gordon, Ubre Martin Drummond. Your starters on opening day with the Philadelphia 76ers on ESPN. We watched it over

there in the studio. We were like, oh, let's go. Start of the season. And that's what happened. Guess what? Onward and upward. Yeah. You know, the bar is that low based on last season. Right then. Any other guys we need to name here? Unfortunately, it's a lot of the same guys from last year, minus Yabuselli

plus Trenton Watford. I mean, I think Trinonan Watford and Jabari Walker both are like good. You as far as like just kind of plug in depending on the matchup kinds of guys but also justin edwards who i thought was one of the great stories for them last season undrafted into a two way into a real NBA contract all by being a wing who just like does a little bit of everything not going to be perfect soaps up good quality minutes like can give you stuff that you need plugging and playing in various lineups i would think there's still a place for him even with all these guys

back like yes mccane and edgecombe are going to pop and demand minutes and demand touches and demand opportunity, but also, as was saying, like, there's not a lot of small forward depth here. And Edwards can play up a little bit. We've already seen it. And so between him and Ubre, sort of holding down that spot, or I guess maybe Paul George in some lineups, if you really want to go in that direction.

I think Edward still is an opportunity with this team. I think he's proven to be a good NBA player. Is Paul George's podcast back? Have we gotten the report? No, I don't listen to it. I actually don't care. Yeah. I thought you were missing, like, you're subscribed and you're like,

where are the depths? I mean, and this is something, that I've said already like the it's hard to have a good player active player podcast yep because he

they stopped because it was it was it was ugly like for him to be doing his media side job while the team is in disarray and he specifically isn't playing that well complaining about playing center and then firing up the mics afterward

yeah it's not great he doesn't get the league like we do exactly a couple guys in some seats. Well, here's a question about Paul. Like, what is reasonable to expect from him this season? You know, he has not been able to stay healthy. I thought last year tilted the balance from, oh, like, subtle, you know, subtle contributions

across the board connecting plays, making like the little things that matter kinds of plays and contributions. He went from that into just like being wallpaper in a lot of those games. What do you think he's going to be this year? What can we expect him to be? He should be more like Derek White for this team. I thought when they signed him, he was going to be more of a connector, allow Maxi and Bede to be the focal points.

And he would just fall in line in between Pop when he needed to and crunch time, be more of a defender type because they really didn't have much of a wing defense there. And then let Caleb Martin, who used to be on this team, do all the dirty work, and he would be able to sit back, be old, but still be talented and give them exactly what they needed. He can still do that, but it's just a lot more younger players around him. Maybe he has to do a little bit more fostering, especially if Embed isn't around. Like, Paul George, when you see these, like, young players, they get asked, like, who their favorite guy is, who they looked up to. He comes up all the time.

And I think there's a valid reason for it because his skill set is so vast. Yes. And diverse. Like, theoretically, he should be able to scale up on defense, you know, size up and be like, all right, tonight I'm guarding before. I'm rebounding the hell out of everything. I'm setting hard screens, that kind of thing. Other nights being able to give you some ball handling,

obviously the shooting is always there, some one-on-one stuff depending on the matchup. I think realistically, if he's not attacking a smaller guy, I don't think he's a one-on-one threat at all anymore besides just using his size getting space. But I think there would have to be like a structure for him to deploy all of this stuff. Like, do we think the Sixers have conceived of Paul George as this Swiss Army knife,

almost like Andre Agu Duda in Golden State kind of figure? Like, does Paul George see himself that way? It's a lot of dirty work, too. Yes. On a defense event, I don't know if he's capable of that. He's just not that level of defender. I mean, Andre Aguadala on those teams, for one, by not shooting and not creating as much, could maximize what he could be defensively.

Exactly. I don't think Paul George can be that guy anymore. I do agree with you. Like, he has a role model for so many young players in the league. And I think a lot of it is because of everything you said, watch the versatility, but also the fluidity. Like, he had such a beautiful, aesthetically pleasing game and shot. Some of that is still there.

Some of it is stunted by declining athleticism. He still got a bandle, like, he still has a great handle. Absolutely. And that's how he creates advantages. It's like, some guys create advantages by being having burst speed. Some guys by being herky jerky. Paul George is by being smooth and connected. and he still has some of that.

And this is one of those areas where, Justin, when you're talking about, like, is this a more fun team without Juell Embed? The most fun version of Paul George is playing next to Juel and Bid. And the most fun version of Tyrese Maxie, I think, is playing next to Jewel and Bid. Like his ability to take some of the pressure off these guys where they can lean into what it is they do do well. That unlocks the best parts of their games. Or you could just see VJ. Edgecombe just dunk and run and... I love that too.

I think that would be cool. Yeah. All right, let's move along to number 18 on our list. It's the Miami Heat. I like Waz believe in the institution. I just think there's too much of a backbone, too much of the guts of a good organization. Spoh, drawing things up, the defense will probably be there that I could see them over exceeding, perhaps modest expectations. The question, though, Rob, if you're down on them to start with without hero, to assume this lingers,

do you think there's a case to be made to go the opposite way, start selling play for the future? I don't like they have that in them. like constitutionally as an organization. But if you're the consultant brought in, I would have advocated that to begin with. Like I just don't see a lot in this team that's worth leaning into as far as the bones of it. And in fact, I think they,

they remind me in good and bad ways at this point of the like Dionne Waiters, James Johnson, Kelly Olinic Heat. A little bit. That is a team that way overachieved, like found itself, found its rhythm overachieved. I don't know if this group is going to do that, but they have the sort of like suicide squad

cast off quality to how everything has come together that may work, I kind of think will not. Yeah. I mean, to me, why I don't, I'm not completely sour even after the, the Tyler Hero stuff is because they did get Norm Powell. And he did just show, like, again, regular season in the playoffs, it was a different story, that he could shoulder a bigger burden offensively. Yeah. We saw him do that when Kauai was down. I think he could do that with this team. And I just really loved what Davy on Mitchell did at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Like, earned himself a nice little check and just became the quintessential Spoe Miami Heat kind of guy, like just in the right spot every single time, making timely buckets.

And, you know, bam is bam. He's a disappointment, let's face it. He is. He is like multi-time all-star, like incredibly accomplished player, into the NBA finals, member of Team USA, seems to be thriving in his personal and professional lives. I don't know. This guy has in our profession.

Like, nobody will say a bad thing about Bam outta a body. He'll go like, you know, 70 games in a row score in 13. Like, you can't count on him to do anything more than what he's shown offensively. He's just not the guy. We're done with that combo. He's just not the guy. He's the guy next of the guy. Exactly.

That's a good. good life. Yeah. No, it is. But if he weren't, like, you know, I think Miami's fortunes the last few seasons would be, you know, a lot different than they have been.

But, like, in terms of what they can do in the regular season with Spolshund, and obviously they always find some scrap heap, G League, always unearthing something different. And then, you know, of course, Kelle Ware. Do you think Wadislav Golden

will be the next guy? Vadaslav Golden. I do. Look, my antenna to do perk up when I see that the heat have brought in a bunch of like undrafted 25 year olds who've just been like kicking around Europe for a little while. You know what?

Like they do find these guys. They absolutely do. I would split the baby between what you guys are saying where it's like, yes, I don't think the heat will go into the season being like we need to tear this down to the studs. But I think they will be opportunistic because you have Andrew Wiggins, a guy who I think most teams wouldn't draw up as their number one option of like getting in a like if you want to trade for someone, he's the guy on our board. but then you hear the murmurs where it's like,

oh, Lakers might want to take a little bit of a step forward. Maybe they might need like a wing player, an established guy. Like, I would be like, oh, what do you think by Andrew Wiggins? He's like, established champion for the NBA finals. He played so well for a couple months. And plus the fact that Norm Powell is an expiring contract. Like, you want to be paying him his next deal or is he best off going elsewhere. So you have the guts in order to do whatever you want.

I assume they go through the start of the season. See how it goes. But I wouldn't be surprised if they'd lean over at a certain point. the heat they just they declined the option they don't like that that's the only thing at any other team I agree with you this one doesn't seem to want to do that but I also think they're hitting their head on a pretty low ceiling with this organization yep and you have to start wondering where the next move is because they're so capstrapped at this point with the guys that they bring back with hero and bam like how do you get the next superstar they weren't even really in the derby for like a Kevin

Durant no you could say like oh Durant's older but you could also argue like they're not on the same because they don't really have a timeline. I don't know where they're going to hit. The Godfather's going to get yonis. Everybody knows that. Every next superstar that becomes available, everybody knows that. I don't know. I, like, I tend to agree with you.

I think they should have, you know, strongly considered the rebuild path, like, way before we even got here. But I think their idea is just like, look, man, we can do, we can execute our next Jimmy Butler deal while being this kind of team. And they do have a track record to think that that's possible. They went to the NBA finals two times with Jimmy Buck. That's all they need. And look, there's the two compounding big problems. Everything we're saying about BAM, which I disagree with some of the characterization,

but ultimately, like, he is not a first option player and leader and score. That's not who he is by game and type. Change a vowel. He's a bum. Is he, is he, does he change your team? Jesus Christ. Yes. Yes.

Absolutely. Yeah. If he's your second or third best player, absolutely. It's a great second player. If Tyler Hero is your primary offensive option, I can tell you where you're going and it's absolutely nowhere. And that's coming off of the best season of his career by far. And it's still so clear that he cannot be that guy.

Well, kind of compounding all of this is our existential question. Look at that. Which of the Heat's recent first round picks is going to have the best career. And now I thought it was prudent of the heat to build a little bit through the draft because they had hit on supplementary players for those two NBA finals runs. The heroes, the bams, those are guys they on earth from the middle of the first round of the draft. And so they went back to that well. Unfortunately, you're left with a lot of guys who were just okay for the most part. Even okay might be kind to some of them. So Yakuish

coming in this draft fell a little bit. Of course, the heat of the team to pick him up. Kelle Ware, Yovic, Hakez. Yeah. I think we were all high on these guys at various points. Yes. I look back on and I'm like, how many of these guys are actually going to be around for the long haul. I mean, are these guys starters, let alone core pieces? I would say there's two guys at this point who look like they could be real deal NBA starters for a considerable portion of their careers. Klaa is one of them. It's also a little spacey in a way that makes it hard to define what his game and future is going to be. I also am like kind of buying the Yakuchonis hype. Oh, wow. I think, look, I mean, playmaking, especially playmaking guards and wings, like the vision,

the creativity, all that stuff is like so clearly there. I also think, and this might be where your belief in him kind of ebbs and flows, did not shoot an incredible percentage from three at Illinois, but the shot, he looks like a guy who should shoot a high percentage. Like the feet, he gets under, like his feet under him quickly. The shot is like really compact. Oh, does he mean? No, that's not what I mean.

I mean, if you watch his shot, I believe that is better than a 32% three-point shooter. And if you're a 32% three-point shooter and a good playmaker for a team that's going to give you opportunities to make plays. Like, I can see how he fits into the heat mold. Yeah, I mean, Kalelewe is like, for me, the person I get most excited about because it is a version of the things when people like Rob were going crazy about Bamadabio.

It's like he's shown flashes of being a version of that. A little ball handling, a little passing, incredible in transition, a little defense, just like an ability. to play next to so many kinds of players because of the variety of the skill set. So he's the guy that gets me most excited because it feels like he's a plug and play, you know, whether it's the four, whether it's the five, whether it's perimeter, whether it's a, you know, a sort of pick and roll, vertical spacing kind of guy. Like, yeah, he's definitely the person I get most excited about.

Just to put all that in context, if Kelle Ware turns into a Bama at a biocaliber player, that is a 99th percentile outcome for him. Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, very nearly the best case scenario. Well, what's particularly interesting about him is his pairing with BAM because they haven't had the ability to play big with the two of them

alongside each other. Now, that forces BAM to be able to step outside and hit some goddamn shots, which he hasn't typically been able to do. But if they do figure it out where both of them can do that, that's a pretty dangerous look for them and something that they haven't had in the past,

which is just size, an overwhelming size. And it gives you an identity to the team that we're looking for. It makes Hero not as important to be a superstar every single game out there. You could be a little bit more varied. And that's more of like the heat

typical approach here. And so that's the case for where the case against them is he is a little white side-ish in terms of like a personality. Yeah. And that's scary because they've done that before and that did not work out. Is that his reputation?

I don't think it's, I don't think it's white side level. White side was an extreme version. Whiteside was like leading the league in block and no one wanted him on their team. Like, we're not there, but there is a quality of, like, is this guy's attention to detail and professional focus up to the level of being an incredibly high-level player? No one really knows yet.

A 90th percentile. Maybe so. But, like, look, the two-big's thing is absolutely something that the heat should continue to investigate and kick the tires on and understand more fully if it's going to work or not. I don't know if it is. Like, maybe ultimately they end up playing a little smaller than that.

You should do it. This is the kind of season and the kind of team where having a variety of looks can help you catch some teams by surprise or off balance when you don't have the talent to just overwhelm them. I also think, though, having those two guys out there together with Hero

encourages some of Tyler Hero's worst instincts as a player. Like the spacing because neither of those bigs is like a knockdown shooter is compromised enough that then Tyler Hero is settling for his 18 footer bullshit and not his get all the way to the rim bullshit, which is actually quite good when he does it. What if it's a Davian Mitchell 18 footer? Would you prefer that?

Because that's what's going to have. happened for at least a month or so. I mean, look, the Norm Powell one, I'm totally fine with. A little bit better. And Davian Mitchell, like, I actually, here's the difference is I trust Davian Mitchell to kind of run offense as a point versus Tyler Hurer runs offense as a two guard running pick and roll. Like, it looks and feels very different.

And him driving your offense with two bigs out there, I think can get a little stodgy. See, as we're going through this exercise, you're just naming a lot of guys with very high floors. There's just a lot of those. We didn't even mention Simone Fintecchio. You should have just named off the time. He started the pod with him.

It's just like there's a lot of pretty good. Yes. And that's going to, if we're talking about the Sixers, this is a team of extremes. This is a team that I know is going to be at least solid. In relation to that, can Terry Rozier ever become a normal contributor ever again? Is he just cooked forever?

It's unclear if he's going to be a part of this team. Yeah. And we didn't mention Jaime Hakez once, who was the darling. of NBA Twitter his rookie year. And barely Nicola Yovich as well, who is, may start, honestly. I think Yovitch could actually play.

He can play. Hakez is really hit the skids. It's kind of bizarre. Because again, a player who seems so resourceful, and then everything kind of just like, it felt like empty calories all of a sudden. What about Vladislav Golden? Real guy, by the way.

Now you're just flexing on us. They did bring in, we should say, precious to Chua on a non-guaranteed deal. Oh, you can always go home. You can always go home again, even when your first stinted home was not so great, but he has since found himself as a Raptor as a Nick coming back full circle. I like the depth for them because once you get beyond,

especially if you're going to start Bam and Kloaer together, you're going to want another actual rotation quality center to pat out some minutes. Well, since we're talking about teams that need to find some center help, we'll talk about the Indiana Pacers. Number 17 on our list. Yes, another Eastern Conference team doing a lot of that on this show here. Obviously a different season than we expected a couple months ago. just an incredible NBA finals run that I'm still like grasping.

Still really. Yeah. Halburne expected to be out the entire season. And so it really is a stress test for the depth that they've built around him and what these guys can do as individual players as opposed to a guy that he is activating himself. And so I will say this just as a jumping off point, not to keep bagging on the New Orleans Pelicans, but we talked about how bad their draft day trade was. I think not as bad, but like definitely in the conversation is their trade during the finals

where they traded their 2025, the Pacers did, they traded their 2025 pick, which is 23rd at the time, to the Pelicans for the rights to their next year's pick. So this coming year. And then five days later, Harry Saliburton got injured. And so they have the rights to their draft pick this year, if they wanted to tank. Yep. Because the Pelicans were just like, we need the 23rd pick in the draft. You don't think that's good process? I mean, look, it was... It was decent process. Incredibly weird timing, admittedly.

The Pacers, you know, they look like an NBA finals contender. I get it, yeah. But that is rough. True. Very, very brutal. And also, from a Pelican's perspective, like, does this need to happen right this second? Like, does this have to happen right now?

Well, when you're a new regime, you kind of want to put your imprint. That's how you put your stamp on things. Yeah, you put... Make a trade for a draft pick during the NBA final. Please really announce your presence. I think they use that trade in order to trade up in order to get. Congratulations. They could probably have the top two picks in next year's draft,

but instead, you got Derek Queen. So enjoy that. See, that's where I disagree. I think there's no version of the Pacers that just bottoms out this year. That would be the case against. I don't think they will bottom out, but we have them as the 17th best team in the league. I do think this is like a smidge high. Interesting.

See, I was going through the rosters and I'm just like, there's too much here in order for them. There's a lot of good players. Yeah. You know, this guy still don't respect Pascal Seacom, huh? You think I don't respect Pascal Seacobhan. I just wanted to rile you up really quickly. I just think to me, what they showed in the finals is not just,

I think for a lot of people who's like, especially like, quote, quote, casual watchers, he's like, okay, Halliburtonism. He's one of our great players. And by definitely, you lose a great player like that is going to be. But I think more than anything what the Pacer showed during their playoff run is that they can play multiple kinds of ways. Yeah. They have several styles of play. And yes, they were highly successful with the speedball of Halliburton, the pace, pace, pace, pace, the, you know, quick ball movement.

But when they didn't have that, particularly when he would just, it's not like he was playing 46 minutes a game. No. When he would go to the bench, they're just like, yeah, Matthew, go to the rack. You know, like, McConnell, go to the basket. Pascal, isolate on these guys. Like, they had different ways of generating quality offense. And I think they're going to guard the shit out of people, too. I think they are going to guard the shit out of people.

I think where I get stuck is, look, Rick Carlisle is one of the best in the business at compensating. When there's a man down, when there's guys out, when there's guys suspended, like, go through his history. He does an incredible job with exactly this thing. That said, I think they will be a winning team in. culture, will they be a winning team by record? Is this going to be a winning basketball team? I think it's probably more likely that they're in the like 37 to 39 win range. Well, in the east.

In the east, maybe that gets you in the plan. Maybe that's enough. But like, does it make you the 17th best team in the NBA? I honestly, it just feels like a little bit much for me. Well, I think this brings us to our existential question, which is who pops in Halliburton's gap year. And I do think if you're going through the candidates, you could go somewhere younger, like a Nemhart, who's obviously being thrust into more of a showcase scenario.

But I also think there's an opportunity for Seacum to have kind of the front and center sort of year that he's had at least once for the Raptors, but might have just a bit more, it might be a little bit more loud than it is in years past. And I look back on his 22, 23 season, where he had his best year, 24 points, eight rebounds, six assists. he played 37 minutes a game in that season, which I forget at times, like why is he so impactful with the Pacers? It's like, oh, he doesn't have to play every goddamn minute. I do think there's a case for him to just step forward and be the orchestrator in a different way from Halliburton

that have a similar effect. Yes. Yeah, I could see that too, just becoming more. And I think in ways that he was already the kind of half-court focal point. Yeah. Even when Halliburton was in the lineup, it's like, all right, we have our sort of philosophy about offense, but like when things break down,

it's Siakum that was usually kind of trying to fix things. So I could see that. And I think, you know, maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, I could see Benedict Mathriman taking the step. I think he found some stuff in the playoffs last year and his confidence, which he's always had. I think one of his most defining characteristics as a young player is his confidence, which, you know, for young guys,

can materialize in ways that are just detrimental to the team. Yeah. With shot selection, it's just like, bro, why are you taking long twos and contested as hell? I just, I just, you go into an offseason knowing you're going to be called upon. I think that's a little bit different than just like, oh, I need a new contract and stuff like that. I want to play for the extension.

I think it's going to be cool to see him knowing that he's going to be more of a, you know, indie focal point. And then, you know, Nembore. Again, like this team, like you said, very into playoffs, like I'm going to be thinking about this team probably until the day that I died. Like the things that these guys would do on both ends of the floor, Nemhard specifically, defensively, just like, just a straight pit bull, like prime Cal Lowry-esque what he was doing on both ends of the floor. And so, yeah, those two guys to me, I'm going to have a. really enjoyed watching them. And I think they could win 40-something games.

I don't... I think it's possible. I think they could be a 43-44 win team. I mean, let's take the Nemhard part first, because his role is going to be massively expand. He's going to be the starting point guard of this team. A really good pick-and-roll player who's used to doing like 10 pick-and-rolls a game.

And I think you could see even in the playoffs when he stretched out a little bit, you're seeing the diminishing returns in terms of his conditioning, in terms of what he can do defensively. They dramatically changed his matchups in the way he was guarding to compensate for all that workload. And so it's like for him to be the starting point guard, you then have to give up some of Andrew Nymardt as a primary go-to defender. You're giving up some of what made him so special in the playoffs. That concerns me a little bit as far as like the

overall success of the Pacers and kind of what he can be to them on that side of the floor, especially with Miles Turner gone. Like I think there's all of these downstream effects of your playmaking is totally destabilized by not having Tyreys Halliburton on the team, or at least on the floor. You're losing your starting center and replacing him with, let's be honest, a guy we like, presumably in Jay Huff. Don't you dare. Who was out of the Grizzlies rotation. Okay. Not a regular, but a good

like, yes, good stretch option, decent finishing option, but not as versatile as Miles Turner. Can I counter? Please. If you were to describe Miles Turner, would you say a decent stretch option who will block some shots? I think all of that is true. The difference

is what made Miles Turner the version of a center who could help a team get to the NBA finals, was he really settled in as like a mid-range short role, comfortable in the middle of the floor kind of player. I don't think we have any evidence to suggest that Jay Huff is that guy. And maybe he will be. Maybe that's the side of his game we haven't seen.

But the center rotation overall is Jay Huff, is Isaiah Jackson who's coming back from a devastating injury, which is tough for a player who's very reliant on energy and athleticism. James Wiseman, who I don't think is going to be a part of the rotation. And Waz is giving me the point. What's going on? Tony Bradley. And Tony Bradley,

I assume we'll get some minutes somewhere in that chain. I mean, he was getting into the goddamn empty. He certainly was. There is a case where this team just has it. There's something, there's magic pixie dust and this thing just works better than... They've got the pixie dust for sure. Well, I also think part of it is can Nemhart do something as simple as shoot as well as he did in the playoffs as opposed to what he does in the regular season because it's a completely different player.

Something he's never done before. If you have guys like Seacom setting him up, are there going to be easy shots for him to take a of that. The part of this that I think will pop as far as like the Halliburton void, I am thinking like if this is not Ben Mathriman's moment, when is it? Like I think the combination of

all that opportunity, Rick Carl has already told Kayle and Cooper he's going to start at the two. Like they need him to absorb shots. And I think this team is going to have like a bit of a fuck it disposition as a result of their circumstances that will lead to him being more productive than he's ever been.

So the team that sticks out to me and I know it's a different NBA now, but it is the like D. Roseless Bulls coming off of the MVP where it's like a lot of the identity they built during Derek Rhodes' MVP season and the second season where, you know, they were pretty much just as good if not better. And then he got hurt in the playoffs against the Sixers.

Like when he went out, that stuff didn't change. Like the benchmob stuff, like the defensive mentality. Like the Pacers relentless. pace and like just physicality and imposing their will on opponents, I don't think that's going to be gone from what they bring this regular season, which is why I'm just like really high on them. I think the defense is going to be better. So if they do more lean in that direction,

they have enough of the offense. It could be a different type of team, but can still be reasonably successful. I just look at this front court and I get a little nervous. But what about the defense? Like about their ability to maintain like a high defensive standard. I think it depends on where you fall in terms of the injury recovery of Wiseman and Jackson. It's just like, are we sure that those guys are just completely going to be non-entities? No, no.

I think Isaiah Jackson will be an entity. But for him, it's like, can you have the abandon that made him such an impactful player coming off of an injury like that? I just believe in Isaiah Jackson. That may be the case. Any other guys you want to mention here? What else we got? He got it's off the roster? Oh, oh, I mean, I'm just going to keep.

saying it until it happens. It's Jaris Walker time. Oh, yeah. It literally is this time. It literally has to be this time. He is going to get real rotation minutes as a backup wing. They're going to need him. They're going to need that.

Like Aaron D. Smith cannot play every minute, as tempting as it is to try to do that. They need him to be good. Are you a Furpy guy? Furphy? Furphy? Yeah, Johnny Furphy. I mean, I'm into it as like a summer league distraction,

as a garbage time diversion. Is he a real NBA player? I don't know. I mean, he's got like some movement and some athleticism to him that is captivating. But I don't think he's going to be a rotation regular. Apparently he has a brother who plays at Yukon. It might be better. Does he?

Yeah. He was a furfee. You can never have too many furfies. A greater furphy. I do think if you guys are right, if the Pacers are a good team, maybe even make the playoffs, the T.J. McConnell for sixth man buzz is going to be incredibly loud. And rightly so. Like his ability to maintain that pace, that culture,

style that you're talking about was that'll be a really critical part of what makes them good. I will say we ended up putting them in our rankings around the same level, ultimately 17, 18, 19. So the last team on our list, number 16, the Milwaukee Bucks, who are different, question mark. They definitely have some live bodies. And I think that's the approach. They basically chopped off all the players who couldn't give them minutes. Yeah. one of those players happened to be their second best player who they are paying for the next five years, unfortunately, in Damien Lillard, got Miles Turner from the Indiana Pacers in order to save some version of this team in order to present to Janus, like, come, please stay with us.

It worked for now. Be okay. Yeah. And it seems like Janus is bought in. He's talking about how he's embracing this creator role. I think if he's incredible, they can only be so bad. how good can they be? I think that's a completely different question.

I don't see it. I just don't see it. And I get it. Like, I can see a version of the team where Janus averages 34, whatever, kills the usage. And we go back to, you know, just Janus all day, every single day. I just look at the remaining parts of this team. and I just do not see a quality

even in this Eastern Conference team. Like, what are they going to hang their hat on? Janus. Yeah. Yonis is like, Yonis is an holiday team. The coat or defense. The long legs?

It's all going on Yonnes. I think it's more offense than defense at this point. And I think having Yonis on your team is a regular season offense. Will you run into the wall in the playoffs? Of course, as we've seen, if you don't have enough high-level kind of other options to play off of.

But almost regardless of the supporting cast, like Janus on the team, it has been eight years since they've won fewer than 46 games. Doesn't matter who's healthy, that matters out there, Dame, Drew, Chris Middleton, Brooke Lopez, whatever, Bobby Portis, throw some people out there with Janus, and I think you're going to win,

you're going to be a winning team. You're going to be 42 plus wins, 43 plus wins. I think that's a totally reasonable expectation for a player as good as him. irrelevant of every other question you have with the roster. Yeah, I think we all met out at the same sort of place, which is like this is going to be fine for as long as Janus wants to be engaged with this.

Yeah. Which brings us to our existential question, which we're going to do a little bit of a death of an era pool in which we pick the date right now of when Janis asked out for a trade. I think we all assume it's going to come at some point. I think it's going to happen next offseason. Yeah. For sure.

I think he's going to last the season. I agree with you. He's going to last the season and what he did, which is this is why, like, I think the Bucks thing was so insane. But, like, whatever, maybe you do do it for the greatest player in the history of the franchise. But, like, he's going to have one year left on his deal and be able to leverage a trade to wherever the hell he wants next year. And I think the cold, blooded thing for Horsting him to do

would have been to move on from him this year so that they're dictating the terms of the deal. Whereas next year is just they're going to get a crap deal for Janus because he's going to be able to tell all of the potential suitors, I don't want to be with you. So don't even try to give anything of substance for me because I'm leaving your ass in a year. And that's where this ultimately ends up.

I'm tempted to agree. I mean, everything we've seen from Janus is he is the guy who, like, he wants to find a reason to stay, he's trying to hang around, he wants to give the benefit of the doubt. I do think this is going to be an immensely frustrating season overall. Like, they will win games. They're going to be garbage. But he's going to have to do so much that it's going to be very taxing. If it does happen, January 24th. Oh, you think he's doing it this year? I said,

if it does happen, I think the most likely outcome is it's not this season. But if it does, I think it's not going to be like 15 games into the year. It's going to be a more significant portion of the year. I'm looking at their schedule and they've got two home games against OKC and Denver in late January. I think he's going to see the Denver Nuggets and say like, man, like, why can't I have a Camp Johnson? Like, like, what is it, what is it that's different about these situations and how come they got to remodel their thing? And our big solution was Miles Turner.

I think you're right, though. I think it's going to have to mount where there's so much evidence that Yannis can't look elsewhere or can't convince himself or somebody else can't convince him that there's still a shot here because it looks like he's looking for any shred of doubt. And unfortunately, there still is one after they made the big old Miles Turner trade. Can I say I really respect that. Like I respect the way that Yannis operates in this way. I know that there can be some discrepancy between like what he says publicly and what's going on behind the scenes.

Like that's all very real. There's a real thing that exists. Yeah. But facts on the ground, he has stuck around. Like he has stuck around with this team through thick and thin through the championship and the post title malaise all of it. Can I give you a quote? Sure. That he told Sport 24 in Greece recently.

Is this an actual quote or a Google translation of a, Greek quote. Unclear. The way it was presented was a quote. I like the challenge. I have realized that I like to live with the pressure. Is that good? Is it bad? I don't know. If I'm in an environment where there's no pressure and I don't think we can achieve something great, I don't want to be there. It doesn't make me happy as a person anymore, which I believe in Greek is just the action is the juice for Janus. Sure. The action is the smoothie, perhaps. Sure. I liked it. I just like this is what you tell yourself in the mirror. Every morning when you wake up to pod, you're like...

I spent too much time prepping that. So you were rehearsing it too much before the pot. The action is the smoothie. Smovie juice, yeah. That is the product of a guy workshopping and workshopping a joke to the point that it becomes almost nonsensical. I should have took yes for the answer. To Rob's point about January,

I just don't think Janus has the stones to pull a Jimmy Butler. And like, what do I mean by that? To make a trade, demand, plane, and then show up to Milwaukee Bucks Home Arena in a Bucks jersey. Be the bad guy. I don't think that's a yonest move. That's why I think it's the offseason. That's fair.

Where it's like, all right, guys, this is done. Figure it out. Like, I'm not reporting to camp if you try to slow rollers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so that's why I think that's going to happen. I just, you know, again, he's going to say, like, look, I played this season, we're horrible. We have no feasible route to getting any better.

What do you want for me, Milwaukee fans? Well, I think that's the one caveat if you're going to counter, you're going to argue the counter, which is do the bucks keep digging the hole? Because they technically have control over their last two picks, 2031, 22.

And those are probably looking pretty damn good to any team that wants to trade a player on a sizable contract where it's like picking a swap from the bucks that far out. is like Janice's son going to be drafted by that point? And so do you go out and say like a Michael Porter Jr. Or somebody else? And you trade for just any bit of help.

Is that enough to convince him to stay the rest of the season or even into next season? I think you'd have to be pretty sure it's a guy that he really is excited to play with. And not just like a guy who could plug in and be more than Kyle Kuzma. Like the bar has to be higher. The bar is low at Turner. Like Turner is a solid option. Turner. But like here's the thing.

Turner is definitively an upgrade over 37-year-old Brooke Lopez, give or take, whatever Brooks actual age is like. All right to play more powerful. Exactly. And all due respect to Brooke and pouring one out for his tenure as a buck, like was a champion for a reason, set the model for what the bucks want out of a five next to Janus. Miles Turner happens to be that. And that list of players is shorter than you think.

As far as actual centers who will hit threes and can be reliable spacing options. Jay Huff. Jay Huff could theoretically be among them. That is, yeah, that is the case. Because they keep trying to convince Janus to stay by giving him everything he wants. Yeah. And they can keep doing that. But I think Waz is right.

As an organization, how much can you do that before the guy is just like, you're bending over backwards and you're just not getting what you're. Honestly, in the words of the great Michael Porter Jr., it's tough. That's tough. That is tough. Here's the thing. All of these caveats. we have now talked about 15 teams in the NBA.

The remaining 15 teams, you can count, go through the list, 10 of them are Western Conference teams. That means we are saying that the Bucks are probably a playoff team. Yes, we have them as six bet in the Eastern Conference. If we are right, again, give or take, they're going to be a playoff team right on the cusp of it. That's not nothing. Like, that might be enough to keep Yonis remotely satisfied.

They're going to be a playoff team in the same way that Atlanta Hawks were a playoff team last year. Again, there's levels to this stuff. they're not a playoff team, right? Like, they're not Detroit last year. No, no, no. You know, like, yeah, they lost in the first round, but they gave the Knicks everything they could handle,

hyper competitive, the point differential at the end of that series was crazy. They're not a playoff team. They're a team that's going to be in the playoffs. So you don't believe in Cole Anthony or Gary Harris as the Saviors? man, I used to be a Gary Harris head at one point. Yeah, they have a mere coffee.

You like that guy? I actually really do like a mirror coffee. I do. We've been a mere coffee conversation every two months. We really do. But of the players they brought in, he feels like the one that's most likely at non-Miles Turner division. Phanasis is back. The Nasst is back.

But like, I could see Mirkofi being a part of the rotation and giving them good minutes. He actually has upside. He actually has some upside. Overall, like, look, their shooting guard rotation is not awful. Like Gary Trent Jr., AJ Green, those guys are good NBA players a little streaky at times, especially on Gary Trent's side of things. And if there is any reason for optimism, this is a team that has had to play without Damian Lillard quite a bit over the last couple years. Last year in particular, they were a plus four net rating team without Dame on the floor. Like, they can do that.

And Ryan Rollins is like a good defender and high effort player, like run the point through Janus, try to get the defense together. Hope that Kyle Kuzma is better than he was because the bar is. Yeah, the bars in hell. Yeah, that was tough. He just straight up in hell. And last we saw Kyle Kuzma, he was getting benched for Tori and Prince in the playoffs. I think Doc will start him again because why not? And you hope for the best.

Give a shot. That's what they have to go for. It's really him or Prince. Yeah. Or I guess. I mean, you could start. Yeah, you could go green and Trent together. I mean, who knows what they'll do with Kevin Porter Jr.

I assume he'll start. Kevin Porter, June. See, I would start Rollins. I would lean into Point Yonis and say. let's get a defender on the floor, someone who's moving a little more without the ball, and we're going to lean into putting otherwise as much spacing as you can

between Turner and Green and, or sorry, Turner and Trent, and hopefully Kuzma can hit some shots. I worry Porter's a little bit too duplicative off the bench if you're going to put Cole Anthony in the six guard roll, the six main guard roll. So we'll see, but that's what you have to look forward to is what has been gets those bench minutes.

So I'm going to look forward to Milwaukee. That's it for part three of the pre-examination. season NBA power rankings were probably up to like what five hours or something at this point got five more to go so so strapped in here uh thank you to victoria valencia uh thank you to ben cruz thank you as i blakley we will be back next time with part four