The Ringer NBA Show - Preseason Power Rankings, Part 6 | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are here for the finale of their preseason power rankings. The guys reveal the top five teams in the NBA. Intro: (0:00:00)Team no. 5: (8:59)Team no. 4: (25:57)Team no. 3: (41:47)Team no. 2: (54:35)Team no. 1: (1:11:19)The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available.Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny LambreProducers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me for the dramatic conclusion of the 2025, 26, MBA, group chat, preseason power rankings. We got Rob Mahoney. We got big Waz. Guys, we've reached the end. The end of the road. Over three weeks of content, but actually three days.

I've seen you guys for over what? Three hours a day? Give it away the secret, the secret sauce of how we do things over here. I think they could probably tell if you're watching this on YouTube or preferably on Spotify. You could see us wearing similar clothes on each day. Should we have brought Jeopardy-style capsule wardrobes where it's like, you know, we change the cardigan,

we change the pants, we swap things around to make it feel like a new show. I'm good with three outfits for six shows. But what if they gave you an outfit budget? Oh, that'd be something different. We had a closet over in the corner there? That'd be something different. Something to aspire to.

Styles on site? Yes. This gives potential for us. Okay. Well, we're learning things about our personal styles, but we're also learning things about each other. Because as we do before each episode, I guess this is the tradition now. Rob's going to lead us through some team building. Yeah. One last time. We're going through the 36 questions that lead to love from the New York Times to learn to love each other more, to learn to love our podcast and basketball a little bit more.

And who's to say if it's the last time? Maybe we'll just do this all season until we run through all 36 questions. I don't know. Probably not. Probably not. Today's question, is there something that you've dreamed of doing for a long, time. And if so, why haven't you done it? Oh. That's deep. I mean, for me, it's go to Japan. Okay. I've been, like, I've never been somebody who, like, wanted to travel the world. I'm actually, like, I think traveling's a little overrated, to be honest with you, like, just a little. Like, other cultures, who needs it. You're fine with like, I live in America. It's the melting pot. You're fine with the east side of Los Angeles. It's insane.

But, like, I've just always wanted to go to Japan, just like everything, the art, the food, their interaction with our culture and their sort of reinterpretation of it. Yes. I've, and oftentimes perfecting it, you know, like, a lot of people would be like, you could get one of the best pizzas in the world in Japan. You can. Best hamburger in the world in Japan. Like, the best handler.

Like, it's like, I've always been fascinated by Japanese. culture. And the reason why I have is just, you know, I've been like super broke most of my life. But I think next year I might be going to Tokyo. I think you've got to pull the trigger on that. When the raise just hits the bank account. When the raise hits the bank account. Hey, man, listen, man. Hey, listen, we're going to talk about us hitting the bank account, all right?

Don't worry about that. No one's gotten in the money here. Do you have an answer? See, I don't have one that I've wanted for a long time, but I have one that's been kind of fomenting within me over the last six months to a year another podcast? No. I think there's enough of those going on.

I have, I got deep into a bushcraft video YouTube rabbit hole. Bushcraft? Are you guys familiar with Bushcraft? No. It's like, you know, intense camping in which you're like building a log cabin from scratch in which you're foraging for yourself.

People who have jobs do this? I think I think you have to have a job to do it. Because you're not just, I mean, how else would you pay for your, this is quietly very extensive hobby. Building houses in the woods. I mean, they're not fully functional house. It's like, it's like log cabins. I mean,

like kind of provisional shelters and log cabins. Like on an island or just anywhere? I think that could be anywhere, but usually with these videos, it's always like very scenic, very like kind of like ASMR like silence and nature and just like... You're just watching them do this stuff. I'm just watching a dude like

chop wood and then build a structure and then sleep in it for one night and leave. Got you. And I'm like, and sometimes it's like 20 degrees outside. Sometimes it's like negative five degrees outside. Sometimes it's by a lake. Sometimes it's in the mountains, whatever. I'm like, I am not a camper by type, but could I be?

Could this be me? Is there a part of me? Oh, so you don't even camp? Not really. And you want to graduate to the most extreme version of it. Yes. I just want to jump. I just want to jump the line.

It's like glamping, but a more rugged version of it. I mean, I love to glamping. It's like skipping weed and going straight to heroin. That's what it's like. There's no gateway Well this is what's preventing This is the reason I have not done it I would certainly die

Injure myself Hit my own foot with an axe Get bitten by a bug or a snake or something Like I don't know anything to protect myself So I'm just like bare food out there You're like one of these like YouTubers That goes out into nature And just like it's bit by a snake and dies

I mean that's literally what I'm watching Except the version where they don't get bitten by the snake These are the successful version of that model Okay Mine's a little bit more common. I would say I would like to complete a work of fiction. Wow. Okay.

Oh, to write it. Yeah. You thought he wanted to edit a piece of fiction. No, I thought he had never read a book. That was funny as hell. Even I had to pause before. That's so weird. Am I cranking out the books?

I get through one or two a year at this point. But no, yeah. I've never written fiction. I have ambitions to, but I don't think I take to it naturally. I'm waiting for the spark for it to happen. but I think I'm going to do it. Would it be about like a young Italian kid in Connecticut? Like making this way to life?

You got into sports journalism and ended up in podcasting perhaps. You write what you know. Oddly enough, I've thought about that. Is it something taken from your life or just expounded upon like one nugget of it? Or is it something completely different? I've gone both ways. But like, I don't know if you feel this way. But like I'm used to taking things that exist in writing off of it.

It's a completely different way of approaching writing. to just completely come up with it yourself. This is why, I mean, I think every writer has at least considered this, right? It's at least like, do I have a novel in me somewhere? My answer is I don't. And I think it's because I am so daunted by specifically dialogue. Like, you know, in nonfiction writing reporting, you're like setting a scene. You're recreating ideas and moments and things like that.

It's like, I could set a scene. I could create a character. Can I write how people talk, either stylized or not? I think it would sound like fucking. Have you guys not seen the new AI robots that's like insulting people or giving them compliments? You haven't seen the clips of that? It's like these robots. It's like human shaped or whatever.

Then it goes up to a person and like, do you want to compliment or do you want to get roasted? And then like the robot was talking to a black dude and started like talking in like African American vernacular English. It was weird. And then it was talking to a white chick and started talking. like a gay guy. It was like, Slay Queen, yes, queen, blah, blah, blah, like just appropriating that culture. You think that's what you

would be doing in your book? First of all. Well, that's my dream. You just see, like, would you be like too Tarantino with it? No, I would not. No. You know, Quinn's on that particular ledge on his own. I don't think that would be the problem. I think mine would just sound written

in a bad way. I think there's writing that sounds written in a flowery or interesting way, and mine would just sound like a writer trying to do too much. I consume so much fucking content. I think I could figure out how to write like a white chick

or write like a Puerto Rican chick. Like write the dialogue of a Puerto Rican chick. I don't want to say I could get into the mind of a white woman, but like the dialogue? I think I could figure out. But to write the dialogue, you do have to get in the mind. I think I can figure it out. What I'm hearing is

you're the most empathetic of all three of us. Maybe. I might be, actually. I'm an empath. I think so. What we said is, what we said. People do say that about you. Well, maybe we could co-by-line this as a threesome.

We all work on this together. I think that was the most revealing one thus far. Yeah? Yeah. I found out Waz wants to live in luxury in Japan. You want to return to nature, and I wanted to explore more of my ambition that clearly I haven't tapped into enough.

I think that's true. But look, I also think I learned a lot figuring out how you guys thought you might die. So we've been learning a lot every episode, and I appreciate you going on this journey with me. Well, it is kind of a bang because appropriately, this is the bang we're going out on because we have the top five teams. We finally got here, went through 25 teams in depth, one by one by one, boy, one. And now we're at number five in the preseason power rankings. The second to last Eastern Conference team on the docket, it is the Cleveland Cavaliers,

number one team in the east last season. But they don't make it there this season because things are a little bit. bit messy at the very least going into this season. It also ended messy in the playoffs, got knocked out in the second round, one of the victims of Indiana's improbable run to the NBA finals, to the game seven of the NBA finals. And things have just gotten, the offseason hasn't been great because there's been a lot of mounting injuries that have happened since. Daris Garland, who was hurt in the playoffs with the turf toe, had surgery on it. Once is he coming back, we don't know. Expecting to miss the start of the season. Those are always very,

vague sort of projections. Max Strues had a Jones fracture, which sounds even more dire. Might not be until the next year, calendar year. It's not fun. Have had that one. Don't enjoy it. Really? Yeah. Wow. Not only the hand, but the foot, too? You know, the high arches, they get you.

It's tough. You're fucked up. Ain't it the truth. And then you have guys who are perpetually injured. Lanzel Ball joins the crew, Mary Nance, both hard to predict how much they're going to actually get from the next season. So I think on paper we like this team, but like, you know, how much of it were we going to get during the regular season?

Right. I mean, I think they have enough pieces to compensate. And yes, some of those are you're hoping that Lonzo can pick up if Garlands out and that kind of thing. So it is compounding in a sense. But if you needed Donovan Mitchell to be your full-time point guard, you can do it for a while. He can do it quite successfully, especially in a regular season sense? For the Cavs, the question is like, can you do all that and make the necessary kind of changes and evolutions that you need to to become a more sophisticated playoff team?

I think Kenny Ackerton, what he achieved with this team, completely changing the way they operate for the better last season is, you know, one of the better coaching jobs we've seen in, like, the last 10 years. Really remarkable. What he did to, like, the team was already good, but he turned him into something like wholly different. I think applying that same vigor or whatever to this season, especially. after how disappointing the end of last season was, I have confidence that that will happen. And another thing with Garland, I think so long as he could come back by like January, February,

to me that's kind of like the cutoff, I think they'll be fine in terms of finding themselves and being a more improved version of themselves because, you know, I think about two recent Eastern Conference teams that like sort of changed by January. The Paces of last year, which it was almost like a drinking game. We kept saying, well, like,

the time of our teams is January, but nobody believed it. But they actually did perform. They did it. From January to the NBA playoffs, like one of the four or five best teams in the NBA. And the other team that I think about is the Boston Celtics and 22

when they changed that whole thing around. But it was some bullshit happening before January. And it was the like 40th, do we break up the two Js and all of that stuff? And it was like they turned into a straight-up juggernaut by that time because they just found something and clicked. I just really believe in Kenny Atkinson, honestly, not just his sort of exes and O's or whatever, his strategic know-how, but his ability to communicate to reach guys.

Like he clearly has that shit. I think the Celtics are a good comp. for existential question here, which is, is this the last dance for this core four, if they don't make it to the NBA finals? Core four being Garland, Mitchell, Mobley, and Allen, because you're right, when there was a lot of consternation about the Celtics until they put it all together and they went gangbusters, won the title and all that. They had the leap, the Cavs did last season, but it didn't end as well this time around.

And so I do have to wonder, like, are they on the clock now? and is it tough to do it without the momentum of rising and then ultimately getting to your final goal? I think there's a lot of things we can talk about here. First and foremost is like the health, but second is like what do they even need to get over the hump that they haven't been able to get over thus far? I think some of it is a branching out beyond system.

Like last year was a proof of concept for how they want to play. But you look at even teams that make it to the finals, the most successful teams, they all have the ability to then counterpunch, to then pivot to something else when they need to do that. And so they're really good at creating system baskets at a buzzsaw level.

And through the regular season, that just destroyed everyone they came up against. They played super hard. They played fast. They played within their style. It all really worked. And then you need some of that counterpunching. And I think some of that historically

has come from Donovan Mitchell, like just trying to throw everything on his shoulders because that's their most successful counterpunching option. more of it has to come from Evan Mowgli. Like that just has to be a more prolific go-to offensive option for them. And he hasn't in him to do it, but he has to find ways to continue to be aggressive. I thought it was like a huge step forward for him in that way last season

of just like dominating around the basket when the matchup presents itself. Now he needs to have a way to dominate from 12 to 15 feet, from facing up against guys who he should be able to beat off the dribble. Like just a little bit of diversity in some of these other elements of their offensive game for when, you know, the open threes aren't flowing and hitting and connecting in the way that the Cavs like them to. To me, that's Garland, too, though. I think a big part of the Pacer series was that Garland was dealing with the tow situation.

He just couldn't be, you know, that guy. Like, to me, last regular season, he was a bona fide all-star player. Like, he performed at that level, no question. It's just by the time the playoffs came, he was, you know, he was a diminished version of that clear cut. Like, it wasn't, he wasn't some fringe guy to me. He was playing as well at the position as anybody by the time the All-Star game came. And I thought that's what they were missing against Indiana is, you know, Garland just straight up creating an advantage.

It can't just be on Mitchell every time something breaks down for him to just, you know, put his entire offensive repertoire to the test seven possessions in a row. Like, at a certain point, you said Evan Mobley, but I think Garland needs to be part of that. equation. And if both of those guys are playing at, you know, high level, all-star level, like, they're going to be tough to be. Yeah, they definitely missed not only his playmaking, his passing, but it's just his organization of everything they do. And I think you're right, Rob. It felt like they had settled on this system that brought out the best of them,

but then perhaps they were two system dependent when they needed not to be. And that's where I wonder, is the Garland injury to start this season a blessing in disguise to some extent? Because it almost forces Mobley to be the number two up. And I think not having Garland leads guys to have to step up. For Mitchell, it almost like leans into some of his worst impulses, which is to take control and be overly controlling of everything. And I have to do everything. And he's good at that at times.

So when he's not, you could see like kind of the bottom fall out. With Mobley, it's like you almost have to push him to be a little bit more aggressive. Yes. He needs a reason to do so. It doesn't seem to be in his nature, which a lot of good comes from that. He's very past first. He's easy to play with. seems like a nice guy gets all the right things.

He has very sharp nuance and, and I think emotional IQ as a result of that. But it would be good to see if he, like, has that kind of killer instinct that typically falls on Mitchell to provide. I think a lot of players go through that sort of learning curve, who are just like a little bit more reluctant scores by nature or aren't imposing offensive players. And you're right, Justin, to like,

this is the sort of opportunity that urges you along. It's like you do need that reason to do it. And then eventually the reason becomes, because I can fucking do it. You know, it's like, I think you can even see it in the arc of someone like Janus or someone like Nicole Yokic. Like earlier in their careers, they were fitting into offense. And then they became offenses.

And Evan Mobley, that's a high standard to hold him to in terms of what he can ultimately create. But he can absolutely continue to level up as a score, as a go-to option, as someone who is imposing his will on a game rather than finding his place in the flow of it. And it's important because system stuff can only take. you so far. Like, even OKC, by the time we were getting to the damn game seven of the NBA finals, it was just like, Shay just had to do it. Yeah. You just had to beat people. Same thing with J-dub. Like, it wasn't like, oh, all of this crisp passing and he's attacking a scrambling

defense. It's like, no, like, you just got to straight up just beat the guy in front of you. And that's why I think it's important because you can have the beautiful system. And I think You need that in order to propel you to home court advantage and racking up regular season wins and not killing your guys wearing tear-wise during the regular season because it is just a better way to spread out the responsibilities that come with carrying the team. But when it comes to postseason, you know, when you've played a team six games in a row, I'm sorry your system has been scouted guys like torn to shreds. Yeah.

And that's one area where. where the Cavs have a good at case as anybody in the East to say when things break down, Donovan Mitchell as a go-to option is really good. And he can compete with a lot of Eastern Conference opponents, specifically the Knicks. But compared to the best players on those West teams, we're just talking about a qualitative difference. And that's why you could rely on someone like Yokic, even someone like Kevin Durant, in ways that you shouldn't rely on Donovan Mitchell to bail you out. You need that as a go-to option, but you want option B, option C, option C part two.

Like, you want all of the decision tree. Yeah, and I think they can make market progress as a team if Mowbly makes like just modest progress as a score. Yeah. Like I have written down of can he be the second option for this team. Now, when Garland comes back, maybe it gets a little messy. But like, if he just takes a step forward of being just the next guy next to Mitchell with kind of slight tweaks, nuance stuff that he already has started to go down the developmental path. I've written down like just faster decision making.

Sure. Or just like a little bit of a tighter handle or just getting stronger. Like I think those are the type of things that would make a huge difference. And he's already gotten stronger because you've seen this photos of him this offseason, he looks swollen shit. And it's like we love muscle watch over the season. It is an annual right of passage. It matters more for someone like Mowgli who need the extra girth in order to

do a little bit more. And this is where you see like the year over year stuff with him too. Because like last season, the decision making was a little faster in the open court, right? It was like, get the rebound, just go and make calls and attack quickly. And now it's about taking that into half court situations. How do you take that same sort of instinct in processing and transport it to this other arena? Yeah, but even last year was a huge step in the right direction. Absolutely. Just in terms of like, you know, when, especially guys with his skill type, when they're younger and they show any modicum of touch, you'd be like, oh, my God, he's going to shoot 40% one day.

Right? But it's like, realistically, if he shoots 35 to 36 and has to be guarded, they have to contest that. That's good enough, right? Not that he's ever going to be Shaq or Yokic in the post, but like, can he beat up on dudes that are 6'7, 6'5, 6'6 that get switched off on them? dudes that shouldn't be guarding big men. Can he beat them?

Not that he's going to be yokeage, where no matter who the big is, he's putting them underneath the basket, right? And so last year, yes, the shot looked better. He took it with more frequency. Obviously, he was more confident in it. I was more excited that he was more willing to mix it up with guys underneath. To me, that's the stuff that gets me more amped about what he's going to do this year. There's a lot to get excited about, but we still have them second in these.

behind the Knicks. For you, is it more doubt about maybe some of the injuries with the calves or something with the Cavs or belief in the Knicks? It's a little more belief in the Knicks who also we should say like the Cavs are mostly the team that they already were and they're going to need some of that development. This is why we're talking about Mowgli and Garland needing to take steps forward because they need that development in addition to Lanzo being healthy and playing well. The Knicks overhauled their bench, right?

Like they dramatically changed the like guys six through nine on their team in a way that they really needed to. But the reason we're talking about the Cavs in this capacity is they're a really good team. They just won 64 games. And yet it still felt like there was like a little something missing from whatever they needed to get over the hump into the conference finals, into the finals. I think they're right there, especially in this east. And that's kind of what's crucial for them is they will not get a better opportunity than this. And it's one of the reasons why the pressure might mount around that core for, why this might be if they, I would think if they don't reach the conference.

conference finals especially, this might be the last time that they get this chance. They've had their opportunities. They've had some bad injury luck. They've hit some roadblocks. But this is it. It is them and the Knicks. And as we talked about, the magic are going to be right.

Those other goodies teams. But the deck has really laid out in a favorable way for them. And also just look at the bottom line. Because the team is, as we record this, I believe the only team in the second April right now. And they are way over, of 20 million over. And I appreciate that they're willing to do that.

They brought in DeAndre Hunter last trade deadline, and it kind of forced them into the situation. So prime loans, baby. There you go. That's how you get it. But it does feel like this is probably a one-term thing. And if it doesn't go well, we're going to start selling off pieces. Yeah, I mean, resigning Mitchell, I think, allows them to, yeah, they could take a step back with the role guys. But they're going to be hypercompetitive so long as they got Mowbly Mitzel.

Mitchell and Garland. Jared Allen, our guy, group chat alum, he might be on the, you know, on the trading block or whatever. But the opportunities there in front of them to save the team, man, to get to the finals and be like, yeah, we need to do this again next season. So, yeah, it's exciting. Less appeal to the cat daddies of the world, but they will soldier on nonetheless. Anybody else on this team? You're right. It's Lanzo Ball, baby.

I'm excited about it. I mean, he's made a pickup sticks at this point, but he's really good, though. When he plays, he's quite good. When he plays, he's quite good. And, you know, I just like that he's getting a fresh start on a team that has stakes, that has something to play for. It's not just Chicago Bulls, New Orleans, Pelicans, mediocrity. It's like, no, straight up, like, we're going to be very good this year. Yeah.

Your minutes are going to be meaningful. And so that's why I'm happy, man. And I think it's just a different dynamic than anything we have because he's such a unique player in terms of how he sees the floor. And, you know, he's always been just an incredible transition player. I wonder if he could be the same impact defensive player. Because that's where he got really special to me, that brief stint with the Bulls,

where it's like the offense, genius and craft had finally met with the defense, and he was just such a fun play. I just wonder if he still got that defensive gear within him. It would be terrific if he does. I mean, that kind of chaos creation is something that Cavs could really use. I like him as a hypothetical fit because he is hypothetical because he can play with Garland or Mitchell. He play with both of them at the three, basically.

Like he's big enough to guard some of those guys. I just think he could unlock a lot for them and he just is a seamless fit within their kind of house style. So all of that stuff says this is a great fit. The cost of Isaac Akoro, very manageable under the circumstances.

Like, Akoro is fine, but was not what the calves needed anymore. See you, wouldn't want to be you. One more guy, just in like the random guys, I think are kind of good. Craig Porter Jr. is good. And he's just like on this team.

What's he good at now? It's just kind of like every time I see him play, he's doing something smart or something that just kind of pops from like a recognition or effort standpoint. Just like one of those role guys who it's like every time I see him, I come away encouraged by the fact that like he could play rotation minutes somewhere. And maybe now that the Thai Jerome era has fizzled all the way out in Cleveland, maybe there's some minutes for him there. I don't know. Next team on our list is that last Eastern Conference team. The one we have ranked number one in their conference. But number four, in this exercise, that is the New York Knickerbockers.

You probably spent some time in New York this summer. I did. I mean, come on, people are excited, especially coming off of last season. And not only you slayed the Celtics dragon, but the Pacers who, let's face it, kicked your asses are very diminished. Like, the path just seems very open. And, you know, I think Nick fans are going to Nick fan. They're going to be ready to sell. They're going to be ready to predict the championship no matter what.

But for me, personally, what changed is talking to Fred Katz. Because I wasn't convinced that Jalen Brunson was going to be so willing and ready to change the style that boosted him into the stratosphere of celebrities. and NBA stardom. It's like, why would I be doing something different? And more importantly, why should Mike Brown be the guy that's convincing me of this? But, like, talking to Fred Katz, he's like, yo, Jalen Brunson isn't married to some system. And if you come with a smart offense, he's going to run it, right? He's that type of player.

Yeah. Which, to me, the Knicks' two biggest weaknesses was the one-dimensional nature of the offense, especially in crunch time, but just generally, there wasn't a lot of dynamism to it and the piss poor bench. And they've addressed the bench like in a huge way.

It's pretty good. And if we port what Mike Brown did in Sacramento in turning that into an office that all of us loved watching in terms of its not being one-dimensional, way more egalitarian, way more free-flowing, movement, less taxing on your best player, then like they've just upgraded this Eastern

Conference Finals team to something that's even closer to like serious championship contender type. So I mean, I'm super bullish on the Knicks in a way that I wasn't before. Yeah. Well, Brown, they had their media day just the other day as we're recording this. And he's already talking about wanting to play fast. Now, that's a coach GPT sort of thing to say at Media Day. but I believe him for the reasons

Waz is laying out because he did play fast in Sacramento and he paid dividends. I wonder how much this roster is suited for it, but I do think they need juice overall. And also, like, their offensive juice, I think is going to dictate how far they go. Because this is the type of team that was supposed to just blow teams

off the court with offense. Didn't quite get there last year. And I think it kind of speaks to the existential question, Rob, as we're going into the season, because they could still be that team, stay with the same starting lineup, leave Josh Hart in there, and you're just hoping the power of Kat and Brunson used differently is going to make you number one in the league. I think they have that capability to be in like

the low 120s in the offensive raining. Like that's very high, but like historically even, but I think it's on the table for this team. The other option we saw on the playoffs is put Mitchell Robinson in there, go double big. Yeah. That has more of a balance to it, but I don't know, do you lean one way or the other? I kind of like starting Mitchell Robinson. Okay. And I think some of it is, as far as what Mike Brown's saying about playing fast, like, you wouldn't think that that is a line of that lends itself to, lends itself to playing fast, but there are different ways

to play fast. And I think the battle for the Knicks is not just like up and down in transition. It's, are we going to spend 12 seconds running Jalen Brunson through offball stuff to just get him the ball and then ISO? Like, you can get into your motion fast, you can get into your flow faster. You can play for offensive rebounds. You can play

with pace, I think, still with Mitch out there. And ultimately, like, I think the Josh Hart look is good to have, but it's also a little more intuitive, to be honest with you. Like, Cat at the Five, Josh Hart, crashing and cutting, OG knows his spots. Mikhail, I think we'll have an opportunity to kind of grow in his role this season. And Jalen Brunson can obviously cook.

Like, you get how those pieces work. The Mitchell Robinson cat stuff, I think, needs time and needs some finessing, and needs a little bit more structure to make it make consistent sense. We've seen kind of what it's capable of. But starting games with that and giving it its kind of designated time and focus, to me feels like it would be additive to, the kind of the overall, like, structure and success of that unit? I mean, most people would say their best,

the best they looked in the playoffs last year with the Mitch minutes where he was just imposing his will, both, you know, on the defensive end with his paint protection and, like, moving around pretty decently in a way that I was kind of, like, surprised by and then just dominating on the offensive boards. It's kind of crazy, and I think a lot of people killed Joe Missoula for this, but he was coaching to Mitchell Robinson, which is crazy,

but that happened in the playoffs series. Like, the defending champions were changing what they were doing based on the fact that Mitchell Robinson was on the floor in the lineup, right? And so you see that happen in the playoffs, and it's like, how do you not start that guy starting next season? But at the same time, like, he's not a high minutes guy anyway. Yeah. So they're going to have to develop different lineups and different modes of being, even when Mitchell is in the rotation and, you know, hopefully he's able to avoid injuries.

But, like, he's not going to be a 36 minute a game guy. Like, that's not. He should be like 27 minutes a game, tops in the regular season. Yeah, I think it's a cat question, first and foremost. Do we lean into him being a true stretch five and use that to our advantage? Can we force teams to have to match up that way as opposed to the other way? And it's also a rotation question for the reason why's is mentioned. Do you want to overextend Mitchell Robinson?

He would assume Mike Brown's a little bit more measured in terms of how much he's going to use his starters. But also, like, what is Yabaseli? Is he better as a go-to scoring five or is he better as like a four? And I think it's also like, how are we going to use our guards off the bench? Because all of a sudden, they kind of have a glut there where it's like Clarkson and Deuce. And maybe Josh Hart, if you want to have him handle the ball or you want to give him a kale some time. like there's a lot of mouths to feed in the backcourt and so how do you distribute everything what's the best use of like the puzzle basically yeah i think some of those problems are going to

resolve themselves financially because they're bringing a lot of guys into camp as we're recording this but the malcolm brogden landry shamit garrison matthews tyler colic like some dottier yes like some of those guys are just going to get cut or traded yeah for financial reasons and just like for roster space reasons. But I like that you can just kind of throw them in the blender and see what comes out. Or, you know, see what kind of rises to the top with that group. And I like ultimately Jordan Clarkson and kind of the punch that he gives you with Yabusele. With, I think Malcolm Brogden could be good, to be honest with you.

You think Jordan Clarkson's an improvement over campaign? I do. I know. I certainly do. And ultimately, like, Clarkson and Deuce, Clarkson and Deuce is like, a bolt of energy between them and like a little offense and a little defense in terms of their balance in a way that

I think could really, really work. And this is a team that just needed like one more guy. They just needed one more rotation player to alleviate some of that pressure on the starters to make it so they didn't have to play so much to carry some of the non-brunson minutes. I think they have a lot of compelling candidates to do that stuff.

How soon until someone in New York gets a yaboo tattoo? Has it already happened? Better have already happened. No, we got to wait till at least All-Star break for that. He's got to get into a couple of fights. He's got to, you know, he's got to do some things first. No, he's going to have a great, like, December game. Yeah, like a 12-point quarter.

Against one of these Western Conference contenders or something, and it's like, oh, my God, this guy is the truth. How are we feeling about McHale Bridges going to this season? Sign the extension. Yeah. Big old number, $140 million. Didn't have the greatest debut season in New York, or at least one that matched the expectations based on what they traded for him?

it seemed like there's been some suggestion that maybe he was also not thrilled about the style and the coaching not a tibs guy we'll see if maybe just being out from under that particular yoke like helps him a little bit but he is kind of indicative of the way this could grow in in year two right like him and cat coming in it all had to come together pretty quickly and i thought you saw at times with that kind of core group that while on paper it was scintillating in reality sometimes it was just a like pretty good. Yeah. And if they can elevate beyond pretty good, and in particular with Mikhail, you know, following through on some of his offensive actions a little bit more, keeping things moving rather than pulling up for some of those shots,

or the games where he was just kind of invisible on the perimeter. Like, he has to be more involved. He has to be somewhere between Suns-McKale Bridges and Nets-Michael Bridges. And I thought he erred a little bit too much toward the Suns model offensively and wasn't the Suns model defensively. Too close. He flew too close to the Suns.

Mm-hmm. It was not great in the regular season last year. To say the least. The defense was just so disappointing. And then, you know, you get the text like, does this guy ever go all the way to the basket for a layup? You know, I thought in the playoffs, if you look at the raw numbers,

he didn't have a great playoffs either, but I thought in moments, he was able to find a good balance on both ends. where he's like, oh, he's finally like selling out on defense, especially that Boston series. And then there were just moments where he was being hyper-aggressive finding his shot. And he did develop that mid-range foul line sort of jumper situation

where it's like, damn, if he gets even a little bit of space on this, this feels like his automatic go-to weapon, which in today's game is antithetical to what we know to be as effective. But again, if that becomes his thing and he could consistently get there, if he could just mix that up with like, you know, getting hit on the elbow, like getting to the line or something like that. I think that would be cool, man.

Then he couldn't play 82 games again, which seems to be his top priority, unfortunately. I mean, he's very good at doing that. He's very good at being there. But this is where I'm excited about Mike Brown is, you know, I think with coaches we tend to do the thing of just like transposing. Okay, like put Kat in the subonis role

and they run this sort of stuff. I don't think it's that simple because the decision makers are different, the scores are different. But the key of what the kids Kings did was not just Sabonis and Fox. It was unlocking everyone else. It was the way that those,

those actions set up Malik Munk or set up Kegan Murray. And in this case, I think O.G. and McHale are the two guys. It's like, they can do a little more, but they need to be the right kinds of little more. Because OG, when he tries to like push too much, it can get a little stilted and awkward. I am coming around to Brown ultimately being a value ad for this team.

I think he wasn't the top guy, but he might be the right guy for this team. Part of it could be just the fact that he's in interviews again, and he's quite a congenial fella. And it's great to see that, especially after grinding out press conference quotes from Tibbs for a couple years. But I also think, like, if he has that sort of disposition with his players,

like, and everyone's playing a little bit more free and just like with more space and whatnot, like, that's exactly what this team needs. Yeah, and also his willingness to try stuff. Yeah. Because that was the sense, Fred, cats got from management's

disapproval of what Tibbs was doing is his rigidity to just doing things one certain way. And Mike Brown has demonstrated that he's going to experiment. He's going to be way less rigid than

Coach Tibbs needed. I think that's what they were most, what they seen as the number one quality in a Tibbs replacement was not necessarily offensive versus defense. Just like be willing to play Delian. Right. Like that was the most

hilarious thing of last postseason where Tim's like finally was forced to play the bench. And it was basically fine. It wasn't the end of the world. It was like, dude, we could have been doing this. So that's why I think the Mike Brown thing is cool.

And again, just to bring it back to Brunson, him being the type of player and you hear the cliche all the time, like a lot of the things that would make the Patriots work is like Belich could just yell at Tom Brady, right? Or Popovich could just yell at Tim Duncan or Steph Curry being the most like literally coachable,

selfless, egoseless person in the building while being an all-time great. I think Jaylen Brunton possesses those qualities too that he's going to do what's right for the team. So that's what I think in conjunction with changing it up, having a guy who everybody's going to be like, no, we're doing something different this year. Yeah. I watch a lot of director and actor interviews, perhaps unconsciously to prepare for my forthcoming screenplay.

Yes. But also just I'm curious about that world in general. We're going to do the novel and then we're going to sell the rights to the script to the novel as a movie. Or vice versa. Maybe I'll get into screenplays and then that will launch my novel. What do you think about, I mean, since you're an expert in the field, you know, actors on actors, very successful series. Could we do bloggers on bloggers? Do you think that I guess that's what we're doing now to be honest with you? I mean, who's that for? Is it for Fred Katz?

Well, Fred Katz is invited as always. Yeah. But when you hear people talk about a director who's like very precise, like someone like David Fincher who runs you through 90 takes just to make sure that like the ball rolls the right way in the scene or like the background actor walks with the right cadence, you can see that everyone is very thrilled with the end product because they're proud of all the work that they did. And it's usually pretty good. He has very few misses on his leisure. Well, recently, you know, we'll see.

Shots fired. Shots fired at the killer? I actually like the killer. I like the killer a lot. Mank was in my speed. I don't know what he's doing with the... Mank was definitely my speed, for sure. Really?

Yeah. I wouldn't respect that. A lot of, you know, a lot of critiques of capitalism in there. So my speed. That's all you need. But you could also see, like, they're proud of the work, but when they go to a different director who just lets them explore and like it's like a different

like day to day experience. It seems like the transition for Brown. So this is like an Apatow movie. Yeah it's like oh you want another take at that? Joe Schwanter. Run it back. Not on film here. It's just video. Do one but silly you know. I do think the bar is high though

all this is true about Tibbs the teams were pretty good. Yes. They won. They won in the playoffs. They were tough as hell in the playoffs. They were dogmatic but within that dogma they were successful. And so all this stuff is well and good, but you have to be free thinking and open minded and win games. And we're going to find out if a Mike Brown coach next team has that in them. Another team where the money is starting to stack up as well with that extension of the bridges,

already up to next season with that core four of Brunson Bridges, uh, cat and OG and Anobi. They're at 171 million, just in four players. The projected cat for that season is 166. So they're already open that sound like that sound like. You'd assume they'd be a second apron at that point. They seem to be preparing for that, like counting pennies on their like G-League and two-way guys as a result of that. So we'll see. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fandul. This NBA season is coming and Fandul is the place to let you play your game. They have everything you need to get ready for the season with tons of cool bets like season leaders, players specials, win totals, exact team outcomes and so much more.

And even better, you can parlay your favorite bets together for an even bigger payout. So take a flyer on the MVP race, crown your champion in October or parlay your playoff dark horses. We're looking at some odds here right before the start of the season. And I'm looking particularly at that coach of the year race. It's going to be a little difficult because the east is wide open. So you have teams like the hawks, the magic that can jump up and their coaches could be rewarded in kind.

So Quinn Snyder, Jamer, Tomol Mosley, as we're looking at this, the odds aren't great for them. but I'm looking at that Mike Brown odd plus 1,000. So the Knicks, despite the fact that they went to these finals last year, only won 51 games last year. And if the vibes are good, if they start off strong, and if they make a pretty compelling case throughout the season that they're one of the best teams in the league,

I could see Mike Brown being the recipient, perhaps even over those other guys. So give me Mike Brown plus 1,000 to win coach of the year. And just visit fandle.com slash ringer NBA today. and start planning your future bets now. Fanduel, play your game. Must be 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-dashhelp.com.

Call 1-888-789-777-7-7 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Team on a different end of the spectrum and the start of our top three, the Houston Rockets. who everyone is very excited about. Unfortunately, got a bit of bad news before the season started. Red Van Bleet likely out for the remainder of the season, torn ACL, and not their best player, but has a case for their most important considering, I don't know who they're going to turn to as a result. We should start there, just probably with the existential question,

because this is something that I think is going to define everything that they do from here is just like what do you do in a replacement? Are you solving it in-house, first and foremost? You're going out for a trade. Or do you try to solve it immediately and try to do that? Or do you give us some time to explore the depth of the roster? Because there's a lot of depth on this team. Yep.

And so, I don't know, wherever you want to take it, but like this is a pretty definitional question to them. I first want to take it with, this just sucks. Like, as someone who is really excited to see the full speed, full health rockets go, you're right that he was so important to their team last year and he was so important to the construction of the team

adding Kevin Durant. He is the rug that brings the room together in a lot of ways and once you take him out, you realize oh my God, there is a lot of depth here but the guard depth is not quite what we thought it was. There's not as much playmaking as you might want on the perimeter. And so I don't want to do anything too drastic too quickly.

The team is already going through a lot of change. I want to see what kind of what we have. I want to see what Amen Thompson is capable of as a playmaker. And Albert Shangoon is kind of showing new wrinkles all the time as far as his work as a hub. So I think I would lean into those two temporarily, but you have to eye the market. I think you have to realistically think at some point you might need to make that trade. And I hope that Amen convinces me I don't have to. Yeah, I think it's tough because they placed championship.

expectations on themselves by trading for KD. But, like, this would have just been a great opportunity for Men Thompson to kind of step into this. Or, you know, Reed Shepard, the kid you drafted third overall. Yeah. To see what he has. It's just tough now. That would have just been the natural progression of what this injury would have been.

Like, without the KD trade, it'd be like, we're still super young. Guys are still finding themselves. This is sort of like a next band up, prove yourself kind of situation. But it becomes awkward now. And this is why the two tracks thing is so difficult because you can't use the regular season as a testing lab. Right. Like, you know, oh, let's put the amend beaker over here. Like, no, we don't have time for that.

We got a, we got a freaking, we got to get a top four C. We want to get home court advantage. We want to avoid OKC in the second round. We want to, like, we want to achieve all of these things. And you can't really do that if you're developing young guys into roles that they've yet to assume in the NBA. What if I told you they just did it last season? They won 52 games. Well, it's in the first round.

Yeah. But, like, I think they can hold it together. The defense is so good. And the young talent is rising. And Kevin Durant is better than Fred's. red band of lead. Yeah. I think we get it

firmly agree on that. The pieces need some massaging, but ultimately, like, I think they can still win a lot while finding their way. I don't think it's a rush thing, but I think

if these guys haven't shown themselves consistently enough filling the void of Playmaker and, because the problem with their team last year was the offense.

Yes. Half-court offense specifically was not good Like it just took on this awkward shape constantly. So if by February you're still awkward in your offense, you kind of got to make a move, man. The start of the season will probably dictate a lot of their approach here. I do think they had the best case for having their cake and eating it too

than any team that I've seen in recent years. We're just like, Fred was the type of player who really represented this where he was foundational to what they do, but you didn't really need to feature him in any way. And so you can explore the depth of what you do. well, not necessarily sacrificing wind now sort of expectations or even the way you're playing. It's a little bit tougher now. And so, like, you're not exploring the studio space is almost like a bonus.

You need Reed Shepard to be good. And, like, if he's not, then you have to start asking hard questions. I agree with what Rob was saying at the jump. I think you give it some time to see where things kind of met out. You do have options. If it's not Reed, can you start Aaron Holiday as just like a de facto defensive guy who could soak up some minutes in the Fred spot. Can you turn to amend in sort of like a jumbo lineup?

He came into the league. Projected as a point card. He's kind of developed into something, his own thing. He's in a men. No one really knows. And LeBron is an old brah. Can you just play bigger and just add Tarisan, for instance, to the projected starting lineup?

Shangoon, we should mention also, like, is one of the best European players of all time, apparently, based on his Eurobasket performance over the summer? Unbelievable. Still has stuff to tap into. too. So they might be fine. But in terms of like the broader conversation, I think we talked about them as a type of team that like might be in the NBA finals could win a title. Yeah.

Potentially, that seems a little bit more muted, a little bit more difficult if they don't make a big swing in order to plug that hole. I mean, I was fully talking myself into, you know, the Thunder are in a class of their own champions, unbelievable regular season success, all the reason to think that their young players will get better. They're there. But as far as the nuggets and the rockets, like, I could have been swayed either way. I think they had the potential to be that good when complete. But with Fred out, there just are so many questions about the execution of the offense all of a sudden. And it's crazy that just removing that one piece does that. But he has a stabilizing effect on so many of these other players.

I think Schengun first and foremost. But even when you think about what a Kevin Durant team looks like when it doesn't have a stable lead point guard, we just saw it, man. And that wasn't pretty. And now a Phoenix, a version of the Phoenix Suns that had a Rockets-esque defense would have been pretty good. Yeah. And so that's kind of what this is becoming is less a potentially two-way absolutely elite team and more, a really good defensive team that is going to take a step forward offensively, but are they going to fully unclog everything that needs to be unclogged?

That's the thing, though. Do we not think Phoenix had more offensive, like, scoring talent around KD than what's in Houston right now? offensive scoring I think it supports Katie in a way that is a little bit more easy than what Phoenix The fit is cleaner for sure Yeah but you're right

I think a lot of this is going to be save us Katie Like shot making isn't Not there No Yeah like Shen Goon I think has shot making Especially in the regular season He can create for himself He can score efficiently

He can get to the line He can do all of that stuff But like nobody else is to shoot his making shots on his team besides KD. That's the thing. He is the shot making. He is the exact thing they needed based on last year's roster.

And that changes a little bit without Fred, too, because now they need a little more. Now they need a little playmaking as well from somewhere. And the guys that are coming in, again, Reed Shepard, not being part of it, they're not spacers. They are going to, the court will be more constricted because those guys are in the game for KD to operate. so I don't know. I have a hard time believing that Doca is just going to turn a lion's share of the point guard duties over to Shepard.

Considering that he barely played him and when he had to, he was basically forced to. He's not going to play him, bro. Because he just doesn't have the defense in order to supplement some of the offensive juice that he has. And so I would be surprised. I think the worst thing that they could do overall, though, is make a half measure trade, where they have the assets to do whatever they want. They can make a half measure, they can make a full measure down the road, right? They can do both at once if they really wanted to.

I would hope, though, and I think it would be better for them, if they're going to trade for someone, make it a big swing. Like, make it an upgrade on Fred Van Bleet, make it a Derek White type. Let's just complete what we have. I guess the question is ultimately, like, do we feel confident enough in a 37-year-old KD that we're ready to win now? Let's just hit the button and we'll go for it, which hasn't been their MO. They've taken their time to really paste this out and to their credit, it's worked very well for them. And then it's just like, are you limiting your options down the road? Just, Janus, no longer become an easy option there.

Does Derek White with this team? Does that make it more exciting to her? Either of you guys? I mean, that would be thrilling. Yeah. I think he would be a wonderful fit. If that's something they can pull off and something the Celtics are open to, they should absolutely investigate it.

I think they have the assets for it. They have so many picks. Yeah. They have the Sun's future. Yep. They have some Nets picks in there. And they have young guys. Depends on how much Boston wants to reconfigure.

figure everything, right? Because Derek White is one of the closest things they have to a pillar right now. And so if you remove him, all of a sudden, you're really tearing it down to the studs, which can work, could be fine, but requires a lot more construction on the other side of whatever they do this season. 31 years old, though. Like, he's built to win now. Yeah.

Question. What's Jabari Smith on a team where Shangoon and KD are entrenched in the starting lineup? Well, I think he might start at the four. Yeah, I think they play all three. he's the stretch that Shangoon isn't going to give you. I guess he's the four man, but guards threes. He does do, I mean, does it pretty well, to be honest.

He's pretty good at that in the playoffs. And I also think, like, if you're just really long with KD and Jabari as your three, four, like you're getting some supplementary rim protection. You're probably not getting from Shetong. Is that much of a rim to turn? Yeah, it's interesting, man, because I guess, I guess for me, I feel like I want to maximize KD at the four. Yeah.

and play like somebody who can actually dribble and shoot, you know, next to him offensively, but maybe I'm just too offensive-minded, obviously. Well, you're certainly more offensive-minded than Ime Udoka is, which, like, that's kind of the variable in this, too, is Udoca's a really good defensive coach, not the most inventive offensive coach.

So this isn't a team that's going to be reinventing any wheels. Like, they're going to be running baseline, normal, functional stuff, but with one of the best shot makers in the world involved. And I think there's so many things they could do with the front court that it's like a little dizzying. Like they can run the two big stuff that they did last year with Shangun and Stephen Adams who's back. Clint Capella is also on this team. I don't know how much is going to play.

We'll see. Tari Easton, Dorian Finney Smith, who they brought in. So you could play Dorian Finney Smith at the three with KD at the four. You could, if Reed Shepherd is good or successful or playing, maybe he opens up some things where you can then shift Amen to more of like a two, three, four, however you want to consider him. I'm like, there's a lot of opportunity to mix and match all of these wing guys if they get anything at all from Aaron Holiday or Reach Everett. Yeah, that's why I think they'll go first and foremost to amend probably getting the crack at nominal point guard and just leaning on your defense just being a terror. And also it helps on the back end with Shangun because if you have Amin, Issen, KD, Jabari, like, good fucking luck getting through that in order to even get to the rim. Yeah.

And it just makes things. I mean, that's kind of the approach with Yokich where it's just like there's so much for your defense. you're protecting him. You just have to be better positionally. You have to be better using your body and your IQ in order to make things happen. And if your defense is that good, you saw you could do with just like a basic level, entry level offense last season. Like, they're going to only be so bad. I think the combination of Kevin Durant, who basically is just like almost 50, 40, 90 every year at this point combined with one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league, like just the cleanup on that alone is going to lead to pretty good

offense. Yeah. And that's just if you just funneled random possessions to KD to say nothing of everything that would come out of flow, everything that Shangun would have going for him. I just think they're going to be really good even without Fred. They just may, it may have cost them this injury, the potential to be surprisingly great. Like the blow the ceiling off potential is a little tamp down. Yeah.

Anyone else you want to mention here? We talked about a lot of guys. A lot of guys. A lot of guys. I mean, Josh Akogi hanging around. Shout out to him. We'll get in those checks. All right, that brings us to our top two then.

We did not have a consensus number one. So we got two votes for the Thunder and one vote for the Nuggets. Who is the dissenter? Did you vote for the Nuggets? I did not vote for the Nuggets. I did not. I voted for the Nuggets.

Oh, look at this guy. You either die a hero or you live long enough to change your opinion. Because I voted as my number one team the Denver Nuggets. I'm buying it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a big case for just perhaps the competitiveness at the top of the league, but also in the Western Conference. It's just like I do think a lot of the – whoever ends up winning the title is going to be based a lot on matchups in the playoffs. I also think like – well, it's two things. I think the Thunder deserve the spot in number one in our rankings just because they won last year,

but also like they should get better just by rolling out the same team. team and doing nothing different. Yeah. But also, like, they weren't completely bulletproof last year in the playoffs. If we're looking back on it, the Denver series, first and foremost, you're starting to see the cracks of things. Sure. Pacers pushed them to seven games. The offense.

Pacers were about to win game seven, yo. And so, what could have been? I just wish we got that game. I know. You look at it one of two ways, whereas it's like, yes, J-dub took a appreciable leap. Maybe Chet Fowl suit. Maybe they just carry that into the postseason and then this is a wrap. I could also see it the other way where it's like, you know what?

Maybe they don't solve everything that we assume just because they're on this rocket ship trajectory. And I also think like the nuggets of the perfect foil for them and for a lot of teams in the league. I just look at it like not only the matchup things, but like the most like bankable thing in the league is Yokic. And if we're coming down to teams succeeding or not based on who's on the floor, which is a lot of, which is a lot of, which is. given rise to a lot of, like, the depth in the league and how important depth is, like, no kids out there all the goddamn time. Yes. I don't know how to feel that, Justin, making this argument.

No, it's a great... It's very compelling. Here's why I love his argument. It's... If the Nuggets bring their full complement of players reasonably healthy to a series against... It's going to take a lot for me not to pick them. Yeah?

Against the Thunder. Home court... They won't have Home court. The reason... why they're not my number one is just they're just more brittle. Yeah. You know, OKC is so much younger and deeper and like outside of like a serious injury to either Shea or J-Dub because I don't even think a serious injury to Chet.

They've shown they could survive that. You know what I mean? Like outside of a serious injury to their two best, you know, wing players, one of which is MVP guy, like they're just there. They're just right back to 60-something wins. completely fine. Whereas, you know, and we saw it in the playoffs last year, Murray or Gordon aren't right.

It's going to be tough for them to overcome. But if those two dudes are rolling, I got a lot of answers. It is funny that the Thunder are basically like a Mickey 17 team where it's just like, oh, we have the exact replica. Exactly. Like just hanging around. A little bit different, but like,

basically the same guy. the nuggets don't have the luxury of that, but they do have a lot more, and finally they actually have rotation players in order to support these guys and to pace them out, which Yokich needs at this stage of his career played way too many goddamn minutes last year, one of the biggest issues of the team.

And then Jamal Murray, I mean, not only is he going to be hurt, he's also going to have times where he's just like flying to see UFC fights, and you're like, what the fuck is he doing? So we need to get through those stretches as well. He's living his life. Why are you being so judgmental? If he shows up, like Jordan did after fucking partying all night, Like, go for it. Go for it.

But just imagine this. Like, Hartinstein makes $30 million a year on OKC. If he missed the season, it wouldn't matter. It would matter. Yeah. But, like, would it really matter? They have a lot of, a lot of give. Give.

You know what I mean? They have a lot of buffers. That's why, to me, they deserve the number one spot. But, like, again, in a given matchup, you know, they just, yeah, they just have more margin for error. But that doesn't mean they're bulletproof. No. It just means they could take a bunch of blows

and still have it happen. But I think there are people that could knock them out. I can sense you guys are jealous that I made this week. You wanted to, but you couldn't bring yourself too. It's a great take. I would be a caricature of myself if I came in here. They said the number one team in the NBA that's used the Denver

Nuggets. I can't say that. But they may prove that. They may not be bulletproof as a team because of all the concerns we've cited, but that's starting five, if they are out there, is kind of bulletproof. Yeah.

Is something, and we haven't even seen how Cam Johnson will work or what he might unlock with this team. I've already seen it, dude. You've envisioned it in your mind's eye. It's one of those things where, like, you don't even need to squint to see it.

Like, it's there, like the movement and the cutting and the, like, the stamina. That's another thing. Cam Johnson's going to, to do that crazy off-ball shit, every possession.

You might get Porter Jr. to go hard off a string, shoulder, shoulder. Oh, okay. Don't get the shot, pass it out. The next three possessions, it's not happening that hard again. Not the same girth. No. The stamina is going to improve. Jesus Christ.

However, with Cam Johnson is just different, man. And I just think he's a better, more consistent defender. Not that he's a good one. We said all it is during free agency. But I think the Valanchunist thing is huge. If only because it just allows Yokish to just get that much more rest during the regular season. There was so many games last year, man.

We're like, he just straight up. He would go out and it was just disastrous. And then he has to come in and not even just play, but like be an MVP to stay competitive in a game against the Wizards, you know, whereas now when Yokey sits like Valachunus is going to be just fine. Yeah. Not that they're going to kill every bench unit. They're going to be okay.

Competent. Survive the minutes. I mean, for the Nuggets, it's do you have eight guys for the series that you should win and who can just kind of get you through it and move the chains and do their thing? And do you have seven guys for the games you have to claw your way out of? And that's been the issue for them. It's like beyond their five, who do they trust? Who can they trust?

And now I don't know that there's like definitive answers, but there's more plausible answers. And one of those answers is Valenciunis. One of them is Bruce Brown back in the fold. Hopefully back to his old self. We'll see how he plays. Julian Strother, who had moments in the playoffs. Maybe he takes a step forward.

Tim Hardaway Jr., who not my answer to this question, but maybe somebody's, or maybe on the one night, he is the answer to this question. He's going to have moments. You just listed what? like five guys that was that was four guys right there and that's not even counting paid and watson right and we should remember not that long ago they were relying on russle westbrook to save them like he was the emotional ballast he was the like the big clipper moments and he was like

their their emotional leader until they turned on him eventually because he was doing too much and like i i do think like that is important to have that energy source but it almost feels like the good vibes that are emanating from this team have almost replaced that. Just the fact they don't have to do as much, they got Brucey B back. It's just like, there's just like something uplifting happening that I think is important for a team like this that has been through the wars and like the Warriors in years past, just like need something in order to put the wind behind their sales.

I think they really benefit on just like a human level from the fear or anxiety of like, are they going to be able to do anything significant? Like are they just going to kind of roll it back with Michael Porter Jr. And bank on the young guys to take us up for it. And is that going to be it? That would have been depressing. And that would have been depressing. That would have been tough.

If you're Yokic or Murray or Gordon, you're looking around and being like, we just hit huge game winning shots, had Herculane efforts, like played pretty well. Murray may be like a little more up and down than the other two. But they did what they could and it wasn't enough. And now you can feel like, okay, we have substantively changed something important without giving up elite. shooting on the wing without compromising what makes us good. We've only kind of added stuff. And that, I mean, that's a thrilling place to be for a potential contender. It brings us to our existential question is those young guys, what they can expect from

them at this point because they were over-reliant on them in years past. They were counting on these young guys who were not proven in order to be part of a key rotation. One of the best teams in the NBA didn't work out, surprisingly. But you wonder, now that they broaden veterans, does it stunt the growth? Like does it kind of mitigate, does it put a ceiling on their runway because those guys

maybe they don't need them anymore. Maybe they don't need to even give them time to develop. Yeah, I mean, I think the guys you talk about are Stroudher, Watson, and, um, Pickett. Yeah. I mean, there are people that still have picket stock.

I'm pretty skeptical myself. I'm holding. Yeah, I'm buying. You're buying. Yeah, I think he's pretty good. we'll see where he plays. Like, is Bruce Brown going to get the back of the point? Yeah.

Probably. I don't know. Like the Andre Miller clonish nature of it is just like, is this going to work in 2025? Like, that's, I'm just a little skeptical. I think Peyton Watson for me, who, you know, I've had the full journey with where I had these sky high expectations. Playoffs in 24 were a disaster. Unmitigating.

investigated disaster. Some really tough stuff. Yanked from the lineup, all of that stuff. I thought he showed positive improvement in the playoffs last year to where I'm just like, okay, he's going to be a person.

Yeah. A dude for this team and do important things for them. So to me, I have no questions about Watson's ability to contribute. I think Strauthers, like, you know,

those times where he was doing, like, good Jordan Pool impersonations. But then the times where he was doing, bad Jordan. I don't know that he was ever bad Jordan. He wasn't like co-opting the game. No, no, no, no.

He wasn't. He was just like... Just missing. Or just like not able to get his stuff off. Yeah, it's just getting pushed around on defense and stuff like that. And so Christian Brown is just there. He's on another level. I think he's core at this point.

So like, yeah, man, I'm... I think that's what getting the vets in does, though, is it prevents the Julian Struthers, the Jalen Piggas, the Hunter Tysons, from having to feel. like they need to do what Christian Brown did. Like you don't, they don't need that kind of jump. If Peyton Watson has a little more to do offensively, that's a huge thing.

If Julian Strother is 10% more consistent, that's a huge thing. If they get spot minutes in the regular season from Duran Holmes, who's finally going to get a chance to play, that would be meaningful, right? It's like, popping is relative in this context now. And they don't need the sure fire, rock steady Christian Brown penciling him into the line. up kind of contribution. They just need like, can you be a guy? Can you be a guy for us on a semi-consistent basis? And if not, maybe Tim Hardaway, Jr. can be the guy. Yes. I think it is a good approach to what they're trying to build there, to almost build in a stop gap, almost,

or at least like a cushion for these young players to go up against the bumpers. They don't have to take them off and just play actual, like, important NBA minutes. And then once again, like the mitigating factor looming over everything is just the money, as it typically is in most team. It is the ultimate motivator, the NBA as it is in life. I think this is an important inflection point for the Nuggets just because they have to now go out and sign Brown to an extension. You assume that gets done at some point, but also Watson, up for an extension. So basically what they did this offseason by turning Michael Porter Jr. into Cam Johnson, they opened up space to go sign a bench, finally, which was actually, I would say in the broad picture, a bad

piece of business because they gave up something because they signed too many guys to Max deals that they ultimately had too much money wrapped up in four guys, but it works for them right now because it, they made them a better team. Right. I think long term, like, they're going to be in a similar situation next year where it's like, can we afford the Tim Hardaway Jr., just average, league average bench players in order to go keep doing this again, Nicola Yokic, I believe it has two more years after this, the last one being a player option.

And so they need some of those young guys to pop, but it's just actually probably a more dire situation if they don't. Well, if you get to the finals, that pitch rights itself. You know, if you show, even if you can just show that you can compete with the thunder again at a really high level, maybe that pitch rights itself. So I think their success is compelling, you know, in a kind of a forward momentum sort of way, right? If they can continue to build, that they can continue to prove that they're one of these

great teams in the league, then you're going to get whatever the next version of a Tim Hardaway Jr. is potentially, even if you can't afford to keep the guys you do have. Yeah. As we name some guys here, I think, The important one to name is David Adelman, who gets his first full year. Shouts to him. At the helm. Killer job. He killed it.

Absolutely killed it. And I think in like subtle ways of believing in more players, I know that was like a lot of the people that, like, I was like, look, man, like, if you were in an open war against your GM to the point where you won't play his little young guys that he drafted that he thinks makes him a genius. and people were like, the guys' Calvin Booth drafted sucked. I was like, look, you could say that, but it felt like Adelman put some belief in them. Yeah. Which you need as a young guy. Like, not everybody just possesses this unlimited reserve of confidence

when they haven't already proven it in the NBA. Like, you got to, your surroundings in your environment has to give you some level of encouragement. I thought that was great. And for whatever reason, man, the big guy, responded. Whatever that is, whatever that means, whatever that is worth, the big guy responded.

So shouts to Adwin. I mean, we're just talking about a lot of coaches who are stuck in their ways today. Do you think, are we getting too dogmatic? Do you think we're just like entrenching ourselves further in our little secure cocoons of takes? Like, do we need to branch out? I just did. Honestly, you really did.

I'm a new me. I've never been more proud of you than today. I don't know how to take that. One last thing, though, about, you know, Jamal Murray, where it's like, bro, like, I love Jamal Murray. When he's at his best, he's one of my favorites. But, like, give a shit in the regular season. Try.

You know what I mean? Like, these people have paid the shit out of you. They extended you the minute they could. They did it both times, by the way. Yeah. That your deal was up. Like, it'd be nice if in March. you know, it's not just Yokic out there being one of the greatest of all time.

Like, give a shit, bro. I agree with you, but we've also rounded the corner for Woz from doing the playoffs, doing the finals, doing the championship, do it again. And now it's do it in the regular season. You do a little something in the regular season. Maybe not all regular season, but I think Murray, like, he straddles that line, dude. He does. He does. Of, I don't, I completely don't give a shit about what's happening. Not even just, it's games at a time.

It's like, yeah, oh, it's close for six minutes to go. All right, let's go. And it's like, bro, come on, man. And granted, he is one of the best big shot, timely shot, you know, seizing the moments. He's one of the best clutch players of his generation. Yeah. But I think over the course of a season, you know, it just lends itself in terms of building towards something if everybody's rowing in the same direction,

just doing that part. What's the UFC calendar going to look like this season? How much does it affect what happens with the Denver targets? All right, that leaves us with one last team on the docket. Your guys is number one team and probably number one for practically everybody else. Why do you hate Oklahoma City? I love Oklahoma City. Actually, I looked back.

I was the only one to pick them number one last year. Do we pick Boston? Well, yeah. You pick Boston. I mean, we only pick them as the second best team in the league. I mean, devastating stuff. So you're second runner up. Her first runner up, I guess.

I guess. Congrats. I picked the right team two years in a row, so this might be three. Here we go. There we go. This guy, God. Jesus, Christ. He's so sick in the fucking head.

He has it tattooed on his head. I am like the basketball historian of this podcast. I am the basketball reference for us. So I have to keep the documents. You like the LeBron James. Because you know, he's a hip-hop historian. Oh, yeah. Basketball.

Justin was first on the Thunder. Yes. He was first. He saw them before anyone. I was the only one last year. That picked them the title, actually. But you guys are picking them again this year. I guess.

I guess we can talk about that a later pod. That's a good question. Is number one on your power rankings is the same thing as your title pick? No, not necessarily. Really? I think in this case it will be for me. Yeah.

But I don't think it has to be. Yeah, I mean, definitely it's my title pick in. I tend to just think of, that's how I think of it. If you're the best team, I think you're going to win the championship. And, you know, I said, like, these guys could take hits. It's not that they can't get knocked out, but they do have just an incredible chin. Like, they can play against various styles. Like, they can, like, if your best player is the single best interior player since Shaquille O'Neal,

we can play against that, okay? And we can figure out how to slow him down, make his life hard. Not completely stop him, but we can manage with that. If your best player is Anthony Edwards, just to freaking completely detonation on the perimeter, we can deal with that. You know, like, they can deal with so many different things. If you play fast, if you play slow, like, they have so many ways to carve out a victory. And then for me, like I said, with Shea, at the end of that,

that Pacer series where it was getting bogged down for them. And it was just shade just like, get the fuck out my way. I'm just going to do this. You know, I'm going to carry the team. I'm going to get to the line. I'm not going to shoot a pretty percentage. It's not going to look perfect. It's not even always going to be like super efficient, but it's going to be enough to get us to win.

Like, to me, that's what makes them the best team. It's like many things can go wrong and we still will still be right there. I think they will be my title pick for that reason. And especially when you think about a West in which they might have to beat like Dallas in the first round, Houston in the second round, Denver in the conference finals, and then whoever makes it out of the East. And I just think they could do it. Like I just kind of believe that because they have that versatility of style.

I think this is going to be a big stress test. One of the more prominent examples that I could think of, like, the theory of like figuring things out in the postseason, how much that matters. the long term. A young team that goes through the crucible that gets the reps, gets the experience, and gets the in real time opportunity to problem solve things that you come up against in the playoffs. Will that just carry over for the rest of their careers and just like contracts or injuries are the only thing that are going to disrupt them? Or does the like the wrinkles of a regular season? Does like chemistry sort of the like the interpersonal stuff like are those little pebbles in

the ocean actually going to dictate what happens in a regular season? Or does. And so I think you can make the case for both and the thunder are built to withstand any sorts of pebbles. But I also do wonder if like we're in the NBA, as I mentioned in the past, like where those sorts of things will matter more. And I disagree that like if they lose a core player, I think they will feel it more than a team like Denver if they just have a Yokish. Like if Joel Murray isn't there for a series, I still have some faith that Yokic can dig them out of that. If they don't have J-Dub and Chet doesn't rise this season, I don't know if I'm feeling as good about the thunder. Like, I think what they have is great.

The defense carries, but ultimately, they needed the most offense from J-Dub. This is he can give them in the playoffs. And I think that's going to be a bigger swing than something like Denver. This is ultimately, I think, a big Chet season. And then that's why he's in our existential question

is like, is this when he makes a star leap? I think we all have been optimistic that he will. But, you know, he's the next guy up at this point because it feels like J-Dub kind of patched that threshold. If Chet's not taking a leap offensively, then there's still, I think their issues came on the offensive side last year

when they were having troubles with teams like that. Like, you know, Kays and Wallace and Lou Dort weren't hot and the offense just didn't look as silky smooth as it did. And Chet wasn't able to always fill in those blanks. I think if he's not that guy,

they're still going to have that weakness, I believe, that they're going to live on the sort of whims of shooting hotness or coldness, right? But what, like, I mean, the things that Chen has to get better at, I think the shot needs to be more consistent, even though it was last year than previous years. But again, same with Wembe, same with Evan Mobley. You got to be bigger, better down low. You just, you have to be.

Consistently punish teams for putting smaller guys on you or losing you on the offensive rebound. or when you do catch it on the short roll that you're able to get down there and finish, you know, off of the dribble, that kind of thing. And so I think, yeah, all of these lanky, wiry, quick, big men, that's ultimately something they need to answer for. I think we've seen Porzingis get way better at it, way later in his career. And I think ultimately that was a big reason why Boston won the championship.

But that's the kind of leap these guys got to make. I think there's the skill leap, and you see that in really tantalizing ways with Chet, where he'll have weeks or a month where it's like, he's just attacking closeouts much better, and it's like, oh my God, this feels like a totally different player. And then it'll kind of fade out

or he'll get hurt or something will happen and it just kind of phased out of his game. If that stuff is more consistent or he has like a couple little skill leaps, he has the physical profile and the role where that stuff is just magnified. Like all that really, really pays off. I think the other thing is feel where,

and this is something that's tough for all stretch big, is the like, when do I space versus when do I crash? When do I cut? And, as you were talking about like, make, you know, punishing the defense when they lose you on the offensive glass or something, it's like, you got to make them lose you. You have to know when your opportunities are. And I think there is, you can sense a hesitation from Chad that comes from like a very good

place where he's like trying to hold his spot, trying to hold the space. Or they'll have to call time out and then they'll change and he'll be in the dunker and he'll be playing a different way. It's just getting to the point where you're proactively doing that stuff yourself. And that's evolution and growth as a player. All young guys go through it, but I think especially bigs like him. Yeah, he needs strength for obvious reasons. But I also think he needs the confidence that strength will give him. I do wonder if like the injuries over his first two years have just like perhaps had a mental effect

because it felt like he was hesitant or reticent to do things beyond kind of like a straight line program at times. And you saw when he was able to explore a little bit more just like how much untap potential there really was. But really he was kind of like almost like the base level of what he could be. Like he's almost like a defensive end where you're just like, just pin your ear back and rush the passer. We're not asking you to be in coverage. We're not asking you to do any of the special things that you can do. And so I think everyone's very excited for what he can be,

probably why he's more than anybody that I know. Yeah, no. I mean, the thing is I think it's tough for a young guy who's on a team that, again, that they have real expectations for themselves. because you don't want to be instinctual when playing within the system is so fucking successful. Yeah. You constantly win when you just play within that framework, right?

So it becomes like, man, I shouldn't be breaking from the script. I shouldn't be improvising here. Because when we just go on script, we went 65 games. You know, I think the next step, like you said, is just being like, yeah, it's not really about what the system did. It's about me learning how and when to deploy these different things I have at my arsenal. But I think the hard, the sort of tangible stuff that isn't understanding and reading defenses and picking your spots and like what we call feel for the game, which I think he has a lot of. I do think that like just straight up being stronger and making more threes.

Like that's going to be a long, that's going to take you a long way. For sure. before we even get to the instinct stuff. I think he is going to make a jump of a kind. I think is he a star will be a little definitional depending on who you're talking to and what that means. He doesn't have to be. I think we'll see some of that brute forcing inside against smaller guys.

I think we're going to see a little more of it in the way that we saw a little more from Mowgli last season. Maybe not quite to the same degree in terms of the jump, but the little improvement that means a lot. I also have zero doubt that the Thunder will step aside the disease of more potential complication because they're probably the best team in the league balancing both personal development, individual development with just like team-wide goals. They're just so calculated about that.

I've talked at length about just sort of the logistics porn that they have going on there. Just look at AJ Mitchell getting random minutes in the NBA finals, then turn around and playing NBA summer league. They have a way of just working these guys in and keeping them engaged throughout the regular season that they don't really get worried about the individual stuff complicating things. And so like something like, Chet is a prime example where it's like he could make steady progress without necessarily needing to be intentional about like, we need to feed you. He's just going to get what he's getting.

And it will come as part of the way. But in terms of like development, there are just like a ton of guys on the lower level. And this might be like the naming some guys All Stars because I still want to explore a lot of the depths of like their recent first round picks. Yeah. I mean, Nicola Topic is just going to join this team in some capacity. We'll see how much he plays or if there's room for him to play

because there are so many good players who are already here. And that's that's kind of a like a targeted aim question for the Thunder. They won 68 games. They won the NBA freaking title. What do they want out of this season? Like, do they want guys like Topich to get a shot? Do they want guys like Kays and Wallace to dabble in some other stuff that they didn't get to try?

Are they going to be open to that or kind of embracing that? Or do they want, as is their right, to just blow everyone out again? Because they could do that. They could win more than 68 games if they wanted to. If that was their focus, they could do it. Talking 70? I don't think it's crazy. They were inches away.

It could happen. I'm glad you mentioned Wallace, though. Yeah. Because he's someone. Well, I always do. do. That's absolutely true. He's someone who I think gets put into the door succession role.

But to me, there's way more to explore, especially as a ball handling. He did a lot of that in Kentucky, and I thought like he, whenever he had the ball, he handled much more confidence than he would from a traditional 3-D guy. I just wonder, as you mentioned, like how much time there is really to afford him

that, especially if course he was going to play a lot and other guys like that. But also, like, if you want to work Topajin, like does that step on what he could do in sort of that free time, AJ Mitchell and running for the backup point guard role as well. And so that's where the like perhaps the bodies start to trip over themselves. There's only so much you could do on the blue, you know. But I would like to see Wallace afford that opportunity because like I think there's like a lot more there to explore offensively.

I think there's a reason to do with him specifically because if he does develop those wrinkles in his game, it opens up a lot. Like all of a sudden the possibilities are kind of endless and dizzying. If Topich is good, it's like, that's important. But his style is like is pretty fast and loose and I think would be interesting creatively. But they're going to need to figure out how it fits. They already know how Casein Wallace fits. They already know what his defense can do for them. If he's also a productive kind of even just like a run the point, keep the trains running on time,

offensive threat, that's a huge thing. I think the, it asks the balance that we talk about, the way that they could do. it is to run an Indiana program where Hallie was playing like 32 minutes a game. Like if you do that with J. Dub and Shea Gilgis Alexander, and he doesn't care about his second straight MVP. And it's just about developing guys, being healthy for the playoffs. You can do that. Yeah. But, you know, some people would be like you're depriving him of his opportunity to defend his MVP. Can you win MVP playing 31, 32 minutes a game? You know.

Right. There's just a lot to explore as well. Like you mentioned Topich. He's just a 6-6 wing-sized point guard who was 12th in the draft. Probably could have gone in like the top five of that draft. He was healthy enough. Does some goofy amazing shit, just like on a regular basis instinctively. What kind of actual NBA basketball player is he?

I have no clue, but I really hope he gets to see it. It was fun watching a little bit of him this summer. I was watching it on YouTube. I was like, there's something to this kid. There's something there. Especially with the size and the sort of instincts. He does have like a flare for like doing some crazy shit with the passing. Like he's really got a nose for that.

Oh, yeah. And look, we hit Shay. We talked about Chet's potential assent. We talked about all these role players naming some guys. I don't want to gloss over the fact that J-dub just did everything that everyone had asked of him. Especially I would say in games four and five of the finals. Like, just was that guy. And we'll see, kind of, can he be that guy all the time?

Does that in his interest? Is that what the Thunder want to do? I don't know. But the fact that he showed he can perform in exactly that capacity, something we always should celebrate. Yeah. I think that's it for the preseason power rankings. Six parts.

Yeah. Many, many hours of NBA discussion. We get a little bit of time off, I guess, because these pods are going to be running while we're just floating in the ether. What are you going to do with yourself? It's still the off season, Justin. You're going to stretch the entire time? Owas going to Abu Dhabi.

He's boots on the ground for the preseason game. Talk about a place that have no interest in being on a plane and in an airport and 20 hours and a full cavity shirt to go to damn. Look at tall buildings and expensive shit in Abu Dhabi. I don't know. Tall buildings and expensive shit's kind of your deal. No, it's definitely not. Like, oh, skyscrap.

Oh, that's the tallest building in the world. I'm from New York, fan. We've been doing tall buildings. I'm good. What are you going to do? You're going to do some pods? Presumably. Will I not be on some pods?

Is the question. That day will be satisfying. Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen. No. But stay tuned because we'll be back doing some pods when the regular season kicks off. Thank you to everyone who listened. Thank you to Victoria Valencia in particular for presiding over our in studio experience. Isaiah Blakely, our trusted producer.

Ben Cruz, our trusted friend and producer. Of course. Victoria and Isaiah just tied for number one on the MVP ballot. for all the heavy lifting for these six pods. Ridiculous. They're the real big three. All right. We'll catch you next time.

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