The Ringer NBA Show - Projections for the NBA's Final Four

Episode Date: July 28, 2022

Rob and Logan get together to examine the offseason and share their future projections for all of the NBA teams that made the conference championship round in last season's playoffs. Dallas Mavericks (2:23) Miami Heat (15:46) Golden State Warriors (29:35) Boston Celtics (45:24) Hosts: Rob Mahoney and Logan Murdock Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For as long as I've known the NBA, it's been a Stars League. But even among the Stars, there's an exclusive club. Russell and Dr. Jay, Jordan, Kobe. They're all part of a select group that paved the way for the NBA superstar of today. And some even shared secrets with each other along the way. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Jackie McMullen. And this is the icons club. What's popping?

Logan Murdoch here with Rob Mahoney. This is the Ringer NBA show Dog Days edition. Is that right? Did I get it right, Rob? Was that cool? Yeah, I feel like we just woke up from a nap, you know? I'm stretching. I'm trying to get my bearings.

I'm bleary-eyed. Let's see if we can make sense of whatever the hell is left to talk about this offseason. Is that your way of telling us in the listening audience that you're just waking up from Vegas? Is that what you're saying? From Vegas Summer League? I can't officially comment on that. but I'm not going to deny it either. I'm not going to say Justin Verrier is not listening,

but I'm not going to not say that he's not listening. I don't know what that is, but like, we'll keep that under rest. But yeah, man, we are doing, we are talking, final four from last year in the NBA. I'm talking about the final four teams who made it in the postseason where they go from here. I don't think, let's just get right to it, Rob.

Let's suck and do it. Yeah, who do you wanna start with? I wanna start with a team that you wrote about, towards the end of last postseason, right before the finals. The Dallas Mavericks. Let's start with the Dallas Mavericks, your hometown team. Mavericks improbable run to the Western Conference Finals, a very surprising run. It was one of those historic Maverick runs where no one thought it was going to happen.

And like all of a sudden, oh, snap, the Mavericks are in the Western Conference finals. They beat the Phoenix Suns in seven games that upset and then they lost, they got swept by the Warriors. a really successful season nonetheless. I think that they got Christian Wood and Free Agency, Javelle McGee and Free Agency. Well, Christian Wood was traded, but that was the big additions.

I think I want to first start with Christian Wood. Yeah. With this team. I've been watching Christian Wood highlights for the better part of this morning. You've been grinding the tape. I've been grinding the tape, man. But Christian Wood is a really intriguing process.

but it's just I'm just interested to see I think we've talked about this offline how he is going to fit alongside Luca but more importantly how he's going to fit on a postseason striving team what do you think about about that addition and where he kind of goes in that equation you bring up an interesting point about Christian Wood on highlights because I would love to talk to someone who's only seen his highlights and then I would love to talk to someone who's only seen the low lights and because there are just completely irreconcilable players right wait quick quick quick quick quick thing. When I was on YouTube watching him this morning, there were two separate highlights.

There was the low lights of Christian Woods and then there was the highlights of Christian Woods. Both were spectacular. Yeah, they are quite spectacular. But to your point about the playoffs, I think what we're looking for is like the midlights? Like what is the average Christian Wood possession and is that good enough for a high level playoff team? I think the evidence to this point says maybe not. Like maybe the focus and the specific execution, you know, all the stuff that teams like the Warriors have in spades, that stuff isn't quite there for Christian Wood. And maybe that's something he grows into. Maybe the maddest coaching staff, which I think did such a great job last season, can coach him up and get him up to speed defensively and get him more consistent.

But we haven't seen anything to suggest he's that guy yet. I mean, did you see anything on his highlight reel to suggest he could be? I think the biggest knock on Christian Wood is his defensive prowess or lack thereof. But he's so athletic and he can get there if he wants to. I think it's a matter of, and this is just another thing that I've always thought about, Christian Wooder, specifically, you know, when he left Detroit. He hasn't been on a team that has honestly demanded that out of him on a high level. You know, I think the Mavericks have been, are the first team where he's going to be held accountable

and they're going to have a lot more eyeballs on him just for the fact that Luke is on a team and there's just more eyeballs on a playoff contending team. So I'm curious to see which Christian Wood comes in this type of environment. And I'm not sure. That's just a big thing. The biggest thing, though, is I guess the overall question, Christian Wood is included in this, but did they, did the Mavericks,

this is going to be a question every Mavericks offseason for, I think, the next decade. Did they put enough firepower around Luca? Now, their biggest additions were Christian Wood, Javelle Me, Guy and I guess you can say Tim Hardaway. Right. And it goes back to your point of which you wrote for the Ringer a few months back, which is, you know, the Mavericks would be okay sitting still. And now I know that they

made the big trade for wood, but by and large, like the team isn't, I don't think that they've made like a big splash in terms of the off season. Where do you think, how do you think that they built around Luca in this summer? And are they going to be, is that going to help them or hurt them next season? Well, buried in that piece. was an assumption, right? In the piece I wrote about the Mavs, which is I wrote that they have this blueprint for success, which is they have a high-level defense,

they have Luca Donchich, they have something that's clearly working on a playoff level. Why isn't this enough to build around as a core going forward? And the assumption was, this could be good enough if you keep Jalen Brunson. And they didn't. And so now I think there's a lot of more possibilities on the table, right? This is much more of a puncher's chance,

a roll of the dice kind of team where night to night you're going to get good Tim Hardaway or bad Tim Hardaway. You're going to get Dorian Finney Smith hitting his threes or not hitting his threes. Those are kinds of the problems that they're going to ebb and flow with

over the course of the season and you hope Christian Wood can stem some of that. And I think offensively maybe he can. To your point about how his biggest problems are on defense, this is a guy who basically put up 20, 10 kinds of numbers on a bad team. I wouldn't be surprised if he has similar numbers on a good team with Luca throwing him lobs with that kind of facilitation.

You know, if the Mavs are a fourth place in the West by the All-Star game and he's putting up 19 and 9, I think there will be a quiet like, is this guy an All-Star Reserve kind of push for him? I don't know that it'll be totally like deserved. But I think that that conversation will be had. And I think that kind of speaks to where the Mavs are where he's the closest thing they have now to a second star. And I'm not sure he's really any closer to that than Jalen.

Brunson, and he certainly hasn't proven in the postseason like Brunson now has. I think the biggest thing, and you brought up Brunson, I want to get to that in the second, but there's just a vibe that it seems like, I don't think this team is finished, man. I don't think this team is finished building yet, right? Like, I don't think this team that we see right now is necessarily going to be the team that goes into the postseason next year. You know, it's just a gut feeling. I think it's going to mirror a lot of last season.

where they might be trading water to start the season and figuring themselves out. And then a trade deadline deal just comes into fruition. And they might help them or hurt them. But last year, their performance at the trade deadline got them to the conference finals. There's no way around that. What other move can they,

what other move do you think that they should or could make this season or going into the trade deadline next season? Yeah, the tricky thing is they kind of already did their consolidation. move, right, for the Christian Wood deal. Like, here's a bunch of guys in our roster. We don't really use that much. Here's a draft pick. Let's get Christian Wood and take a chance on him.

Beyond that, I think you're looking at Tim Hardaway Jr.'s And trying to attach enough stuff to it that it interests a team going downhill with a veteran guy they don't really need anymore who could be more helpful to you than Tim Hardaway, Jr. That's kind of the space they're living in. And so it has to be almost reactive or proactive in a way where they're, they have to read the market, they have to see how other teams are doing, they have to jump on those opportunities.

It's hard to look at the beginning of the season and say, oh, like, there's this clear guy who they're going to be able to target or even a clear kind of player they're going to be able to target because I think what makes the Mavs roster so intriguing is you can play Dorian Finney Smith at the three or the four. You can play Luca Donchich at one, two, or three if you really wanted to. Like, you could fit a lot of different kinds of players onto this roster. The only guy who's really locked in is Luca. Everything else is really flexible.

including are they going to start Javelle McGee at the 5 and Christian Wood at the 4? Is that how they're going to look? And if they do start that way, how often are they going to play big versus small? So Luca gives you a lot of options, which I think is the great value of him as a superstar, is the different constructions you could put around him. But you got to actually figure one of them out. You know, you really got to lock in on one trade target. And we've seen from this team in the past when they got Chris Stops for Zingis.

Sometimes it's a surprise trade in the middle of the season. sometimes it's not even at the deadline. It's just months ahead of it because they see the one guy that they can pick up at the right time. How much are they going to miss Jalen Brunson this season? A lot. It's going to be tough.

And, you know, I think those are always the things that we talk about with co-stars to put next to Luca is, you know, can we get the wing defender guy? Can we get the rolling, like a star center? Can we get another ball handler in there? And to lose the best secondary ball handler on the team and put, I think,

what's going to have to be so much of that responsibility with Spencer Dinwiddie, who had a really nice stretch after coming to the Mavs, but even in the playoffs was like these other guys, very up and down. You know, had some huge moments, but they were huge moments at the end of a 38% shooting night. And so, is that going to be good enough? I don't really see it.

And I think kind of what's overshadowing this whole conversation is, you know, is Christian Wood good enough? Is Spencer Dinwiddie good? enough. Is this roster good enough? The West is going to be better, right? Like we got the clippers back in the mix. We got the nuggets back in the mix. We'll see what happens with the Sons.

They might be what they were plus Kevin Durant, more or less, you know, by the time the playoffs come around, not to mention the Warriors. And so, are these guys good enough to break through a, you know, a more dense conference in terms of its top tiers? That's where it gets a little dicey and where you think of, like, how many possessions can we realistically give to Spencer Dinwiddie that we just gave to Jalen Brunson? And I don't feel great about that.

It's tricky, right? Because I think, you know, especially hindsight, like, Jalen Brunson was going to the Knicks. You know, it was just going to happen. You know, it was just, it was in the cards the whole time.

But to the point where it almost seemed like an overreach in my eyes for the Knicks. Just, you know, like we're going to just, we want this guy. We're locked in on this guy. I'm curious just to see how Mavericks respond to this because I think that it's at the end of the day, this all revolves around Luca Dodgich. It all does. He's one of the rare players. I think there's about, I don't want to put numbers on it, but there's only a few players that are walking championship contenders on their own. You know, Janus is an example. And Luca has become that example over the last few months. right where he's that guy where you build around and you similar to how lebron was about seven eight years ago where he's just on the floor okay we're going to compete for a title that's it

and lucca's kind of going into that lucca's been working out he's been playing it playing a lot this offseason playing the euro leagues and stuff like that i what lucid are you expecting this year i think there might be like i think he might get that MVP that he has been like he's always kind of been in a conversation for but there's a there's a bigger chance now it seems like a little chip on his shelter. He's playing this offseason, and I think that's going to help him. Yeah, I like the MVP case for him. Because otherwise, I mean, we're looking at, I think Yokic again, I think voters would not necessarily swing that way, just on a conceptual level. And so then you're getting into, you know, Embed or Yonis or, you know, is Durant back in that

conversation? And Luca just has such a compelling case between the numbers, the impact, his team's reliance on him, as you mentioned. That's, that's where it's going to come. come from. And I think he is prime for that kind of season. And he's at the point in his career where just kind of like arc-wise, this is when guys start to take an even bigger leap, you know, the best of the best of the best players. This is when they hit an even different level. And that's what makes the Mavs in this conversation, no matter what they do with their roster, you know, to your point, a guy who is a contender unto himself, and you can't rule them out, you can't rule them out from being just the kind of surprise team they were last season because

Luca is that good. And so that always puts them in such an interesting space, as we've been talking about, as a trade candidate, as a team that could just have an amazing January and all of a sudden be in second place in the conference. And all of that is owed to Luca. And then you start to think about, like, where, what are the areas where this guy can get better? And I think the biggest ones are some of the ones that are effort-based, that are conditioning-based.

I mean, we saw in the playoffs, the Suns picked on him for, like, one game. And then afterwards, he was just a totally different defender. I mean, he's not a defensive player the year, but he was fighting in a different way. And it's like, if that kind of stuff is right there within his grasp and within his control, what happens when you give him three months of off-season work to hone some specific skill and what are we going to see from him?

I'm really anxious to find out. I guess I want to have the question. Are they going to be real next year or fake? Just to put a book in on the Maverick season. Why you got to be so binary about it? Can't they be kind of in between real and fake? show, Rob. We're doing a look ahead. This is a look ahead question. I think they're more real than fake, but it's still not looking super likely that they're going to be back in the final four. I think

there are just too many teams. Look at the Warriors and they're going to have a hard road, but they're the champions. They've shown all the different ways they can get back to that stage. We're going to find out pretty soon how much of this was just like a pleasant surprise and so many things breaking in the MAV's favor to get them to the conference finals. But I think they've got a shot. And that's kind of where you want to be when you have a team that's youngish. And, you know, as we've talked about in so many ways, like not cemented in any way. This is a roster that's still coming together. And yet you have a shot. I don't think that's a bad place to be. Let's talk about another team. Let's go to the Eastern Conference, man.

Another team that you were, you know, you were around last season. Let's go with the Miami Heat. And the Miami Heat, I was funny because I was writing a little notey notes. And, you know, I like to do like key losses and key additions. It's pretty kind of straightforward for Miami. They lost PJ Tucker. Who were the key additions for the Miami Heat for you? Their rookie Nicola Yovich. Did I say that right?

I said that right. Yep. You nailed it. That was their key addition. And that says everything you need to know about the Miami Heat right now. You know. Yeah. And I think they're one of those teams that, you know,

As soon as Kevin Durant said, I want to go, or it was reported that he said, I want to go to Miami or Phoenix. Both teams, at least for a bit, had been in a holding pattern. Just like, oh, man, like, can we get him? Like, is it, okay, is there, like, let's kick the tires on this. But Miami, Miami is going to be in the mix some kind of way. I just don't know if it's, I don't know if it's the overachieving Miami Heat team or the fighty, scrappy Miami Heat team that has a great. first round series gets to the second round team.

I don't know yet. I can't put my finger on the Miami Heat right now. Yeah, I think the lack of any clear addition for them is pretty brutal. I mean, the Mavs lost a player who they kind of couldn't afford to lose in Brunson. And I think the heat in their own way did with PJ Tucker. I don't know who you plug into that spot who does the stuff that PJ Tucker does. And the fact that there's no real rotation addition, at least from outside the roster, that's a tough break in a conference

that's going to be pretty hard to break through and to parse. And this is a team that was so close to getting to the NBA finals and you want to give them the benefit of that doubt. But it just looks tougher and tougher because I think it's very much reliant. The heat's entire case is very much reliant

on are you getting a better, healthier season out of Kyle Lowry, a guy who might not just be in a phase of his career anymore where he's giving you better healthier seasons. And are you getting any development from BAM a bio at this point where he's going to go from All-Star to something more than that. Those are basically what their roster depends on because they might have a little bit better health. They, I think, very quietly had a pretty checkered season last year in terms of guys

just like we're out of the lineup for in the final balance, 20 plus games, 15 plus games for a lot of their core guys. So that'll be nice for a team that was already first place in the East. But when we're talking about getting back to the conference finals and beyond, I don't know. A lot is all of a sudden writing on Max Struce to be unbelievable again or to find the next Max Struce and plug him into your roster. I don't know. I don't know

that I trust in the roster as constructed to be quite as good as it was. It's funny because the Miami Heat seasons it feels like they're a buildup to you know, they play really well throughout the regular season. It's a buildup to

we're just going to over rely on Jimmy Butler in the post season. We're just going to give the ball to Jimmy and figure out what, then we're going to just put the ball and live and die with what he does. And Jimmy Butler is not a bad strategy, not a bad strategy as far as it goes. But as you see, though, the reason why, you know, they've been beaten is because the teams that have beaten him have been way more balanced than they have, especially offensively. I guess this is the question that I keep coming to is Jimmy Butler going to be at that level another year, you know, because he's getting a little, he's getting old long in the tooth.

Is he going to be able to do that? And this is also like a roster that is older. You know, the guys that they do rely on are a bit older and veterans. But how's Jimmy Butler going to be next season? What do you think? What do you see in Jimmy? I mean, he was great.

It just had an incredible season and incredible playoffs. And I wonder, too, how different is this conversation we're having right now if Jimmy Butler hits one more shot, right? Like if he hits that three against the Celtics, the heat go to the finals, is the framing of this entire conversation so different where it's like, oh, they went to the finals

and they're getting Kyle Lowry back. Obviously we'd have to account for the PJ Tucker part of that, but Jimmy Butler's 32 years old, you know? And he's asked to do so, so much, as you mentioned, and so so much in a way that's very reliant on him to be physically dominant, right? Like he's cagey, he's clever, he'll bait you into fouls, he gets his angles, he does all of that stuff.

He's a brilliant basketball player. but he's also strong as hell, and he's going to bump you out of his way and push you off, and he has to be exactly as explosive as he is right now, or else he's not getting those same angles. He's not getting those same advantages. And so as those things start to go, I don't think the floor is going to drop out on him dramatically,

as dramatically as we've seen from some of these other stars who are just so reliant on their burst speed or their vertical or whatever it is. Like he has enough tools to kind of have a graceful landing ultimately, but you pinpointed it. Like if he isn't an, MVP caliber player, the heat are not a championship level team. They just don't have the construction to be that. And I don't see anywhere in this roster that suggests they're necessarily ready to compensate for a big Jimmy Butler drop off. Are the heat back in the final four next year? I vote no.

I think no. And I think my vote has a lot to do with Janus, basically. I'm kind of thinking the bucks are back or failing that. I'm increasingly kind of eager to see and optimistic about the Sixers with you know, hard in getting some time to fix whatever was going on with his hamstring. They got PJ Tucker, so there's some addition by addition and subtraction going on with that kind of direct matchup. They had a really nice offseason

in the exact way the heat didn't. Like, we're going to fill out our roster with role players that complement our guys do. I think the heat had a lot of reasons to think they already had a lot of those role players, but if we're talking about how does this team get better, I'm not sure there's a clear roadmap for that. One of the things

that's intriguing, and we touched the Sixers. I mean, we talk about James Hardin's sometimes lack of work ethic or where he's been in his career. I think if you look back in his career, there have been like three or four seasons where he's just like worked his tail off and got into shape and his play and play like an MVP right after. And it seems like this is just one of those summers where like he's betting on everything. He has a, you know, he has basically essentially a one year deal with a

player option, right? Like, he's locked all the way into success here, gave away a lot of money. And at least he is, you know, he is at least purporting himself to be ready for next season. But I'm really curious to see what James Hardin does at this stage of his career. That's going to be really interesting because it seems like just one of those summers where he's at least saying all the right things and is, and seems to be ready to go next year. Is this going to be that kind of summer for us, do you think? Are we getting in the gym, rising and grinding?

I'm in a gym. Ready to have our MVP. I'm in a gym. I'm ready to go. Yeah. Let's go. You're done. You're doing stepbacks on stepbacks on stepbacks a la James Hart.

Yeah, man, I got my like, you know, I got my like weak rest and, you know, got my like, and now, I'm like in the gym just shooting jumpers and stuff. We'll get to like the other stuff in a bit and just work that into the routine. But I'm in the gym right now. I'm ready to roll. I dig it. I appreciate that you're in the lab even this early. You know, you're already refining. But yes, I do think that with James.

I think that there might be some. something going there. Do we want to at least touch on the Durant possibility for the heat? Because that changes a lot of this conversation, right? I'm curious what your read was on the heat's inclusion in that conversation, because just from kind of reading between the lines, it seemed a lot like Kevin Durant wanted to go to Phoenix and to kind of round out the trade request.

He's like, oh, let's throw the heat in there too. They felt like a pretty distant second to me. I don't think they're as distant as you might think. No. Because Katie has always kind of had like an eye on Miami in terms of like he gave them a meeting in 2016. You know, he, he's always respected that organization and just how they go about things. You know, I think it was funny. A few years ago, he worked out at like American Airlines Arena with PJ Tucker.

They just had like, you know, and worked out together. That doesn't mean anything in terms of like his availability with the heat. but like he is a guy that it means one thing which is hook him you know yeah exactly yes shout out to Austin Texas yes but I think when he said to Miami Heen or when it would that was one of his choices I think it was really you got to give the heat a little bit more credit than them to just be at a distant second I think he was serious about it I think that that's something I think that's a team that he really likes in an organization that he really respects I think it's more of a thing of it's right now it's

is hard to get him. It's just really hard to get a guy like that, not only for the salary standpoint, but he's a little long in a tooth and has injury history, right? So to a lot of the teams that he wants to go to, you have to part with younger guys and guts your team because he's so good.

And even a team like Toronto, you know, they have to part with Scotty Barnes. That's tough, right? And so, you know, I think it's more of a circumstance of like, if this was Katie, like, four years ago, you know, like, it'd be no question. Like, make the trade happen. Get it done. Right now, it's just such a tricky situation just for the salary standpoint and how old Kevin is.

It's just, it's a very, that's why I think that's why it's taking so long. It's a lot of variables. It's tough. But Miami is a team that, like, he really likes. And I think that, I don't think it's a that distance of a second if it is in the rankings. Well, if it were to happen, that's an interesting case where everything, it would take to get him would really warp the shape of the roster, I would imagine, right? Like you would have to think Bam out of Bayo would be in that deal, presumably going to a third

team or whatever you would need to do to resolve the fact that Bam and Ben Simmons can't be on the same roster as designated player guys. And so then you're looking at like Dwayne Deadman is your starting center on a Kevin Durant led championship contender with Jimmy Butler on it. And I mean, I like Dwayne Dedman as much as the next guy, but that's, that's a, I don't know that that's where I would want to live. Here's the key, like, for both, the Phoenix Suns. And I don't know if the Phoenix Suns. I don't mean not say that.

We'll see. Like, if they're, we'll see if they can get a deal done, right? But based on the wish list, both teams would have to gut so much. And say, let's just go down the line. If he goes to Phoenix, let's just say the big three is Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, and Devin Booker. Yeah. two of those guys and Katie and Chris Paul

have very significant injury history you know well not and like they've both had injuries throughout even last season that have had them out for long stretches of time and that speaks to their age right so if you put them in Phoenix that's something you're going to have to monitor with him

if you put him in Miami also something you're going to have to monitor with that whole team not just Kevin Durant, but like what, Kyle Lowry too, right? And, you know, to his extent, Jimmy Butler, who missed playoff games. You know how hard it is for superstars to miss playoff games. They have to be significant enough injuries to do so. So that's something to kind of keep your eye on as well. Like Kevin Durant on either team makes them a title contender,

but you have to really manage his health and the people around him when you do, and when you do take him on. And there's kind of a funny tradeoff with that too, which is not only are you making your roster older, as you mentioned, and you need to be mindful of his minutes and usage and managing all these guys at once, but usually you're trading away all of the young players who would help you do that, right?

Like the McHale Bridges, the Tyler Heroes, whoever that is for the roster he gets traded to, the guys who'd be like, oh, you know, we need to rest our veterans tonight. You need to play 43 minutes. Those guys, you know, you have to, bump one or two spots down the pecking order. Now it's Cam Johnson is that guy now instead of McHale Bridges. And that's a bit of a dip.

It's like when Kobe, when Kobe Bryant had his trade request in 2007. And Jerry Bus basically was like, yo, we'll trade you to the Bulls if you want to go to the Bulls. But we're going to cut all of the Bulls roster. And you're basically going to be in the situation you're in right now. You can go anywhere. But we're going to gut that team. Because you are that special. That seems like, like it, that seems like a catch-22, man, you know?

Like, it's just, we haven't seen a situation like this in a long time. Because the fact of the matter is there is a world where, you know, it's a wild world to have. But like, it's a world if they goes back to, if both Kyrie and Kevin go back to Brooklyn for training camp. you know, that'll be very interesting. That'll be a very interesting media day. Do you think it was the highlight of Luw Aldang's career that Kobe was like, I don't want to go to the Bulls if you have to trade Luwold Dang and Kirk Heinrich to get me? Probably.

Or, you know, when Luwoldang got all that bread and didn't have to play, that was pretty cool. That was pretty cool, you know. Just a rich Lakers history in general for Luwolding, it turns out. Shout out to Lou All Dang, man. Let's go to Golden State. Very interesting team. Very interesting team. And I'm got to be honest with you.

There was a recent report from the athletic. That was really good. And I kind of want to talk through with that. But just basically talking about the salaries and who will get an extension, where the possibilities that each person, each Draymond gets an extension, that Wiggins gets an extension, that pool gets an extension. And I don't want to dive too much into the article, but you guys should go check that out.

But it just seems the Warriors, and I think, I don't know if we talked about this during the finals, but this seems like, okay, I'll go back. 2018 Media Day. It was the final media day at the Warriors Oakland facility, right? It was the final media day with Kevin Durant, with Clay Thompson, with Steph Curry, Jemond Green.

They took the picture with all of those guys and to Marcus Cousins. It was like just the super team just stunting on everybody, right? It was just that. But before that all happened, Steve Kurt addressed the media and basically was like,

we need to enjoy this time because it's fleeting. And I think we are at that stage now, again, with the Warriors, with this iteration of the Warriors because they're at another crossroads right now where they have a lot of money. Like the Warriors are,

you want to talk about a rich organization. They are printing money there. We see it every time we go to Chase Center. But it seems like this is probably the year where it's like this is the last year of this iteration of the team. And I think this is going to be a, not a last dance per se, but it's going to be one of those things like,

you know, I wrote back during the finals, like they are trying to be the spurs, right? That is the benchmark. That is something that they want to do. So I don't think this is a Bulls' last dance type season, but I think it is a spurs-like transition season, if you will,

where this is a season where they got to make sure that their young guys hit. Kaminga has to hit, Moody has to hit, pool has to take another step so they can justify because younger guys are cheaper, right? It is what it is.

And this is the time where they got a hit, but this is also a time where it's like, okay, this might be the last time we see this group and this might be the last time we see this group on a roster together. So when you say that, when you're circling back to

we need to enjoy this moment, because it's fleeting, because this is a last ride together. Do you see that because of the financial ramifications, or do you see that because of the age of the core guys? I mean, I guess those are not mutually exclusive conversations, but do you lean one way or the

other? I think it's a bit of both, right? Because you have the money aspect. I think Andrew Wiggins represents the money aspect of this, right? Where we'd love to have him, can he take a smaller, can he take a pay cut? Not necessarily take a pay Cup, but can he take less than he would on the open market to stay here?

There's a, you know, there's a side on, you know, this is the type of that. Andrew Wiggins might be thinking, man, I bawled out the whole postseason. I am one of a huge reason why we are champs when we didn't even think we were going to win a title this year, right? And there's the other side from the words of like, no, man, when you came here, we kind of built you up into this great player, not to say you weren't. great before, but we put you into positions where you didn't need to have pressure. You were fine.

We just needed, there was really no pressure on your role. Can you give us a discount for that? And can you like buying to win more titles? And then you have a guy like, you have a guy like Draymond, who is, is, represents the age part of it, your question, where, you know, we saw throughout the playoffs, there were times where he played great, where you're like, oh my goodness,

he's indispensable. I sat next to you, game six of the NBA finals where he's hitting threes right in front of us, and there was a moment where we looked at each other, like,

one, what the hell is happening? And two, I think this game is over. Right, where, and then there's also the games where he gets taken out in crunch time minutes, right?

That, and, you know, there's been reporting that he wants the max. And that makes sense. And there's a, two-fold thing to that, where Draymond is so important to this

team, to where in his mind hell yeah, he's justified and asking for the max. But a lot of that has to do in his time, and this is just everything involved, a lot of the reason why he has stayed for as long as he stayed is because Steph, you know,

is because Steph wants him there. And Steph, and Steph, he's a guy that Steph will always trust and will always ride for. a guy that honestly, Steph hasn't won without. You know, he's won without certain guys,

but he hasn't, those guys have not been Draymond Green. Every time you go on a podium after a finals, Draymond Green is right there with Steph, you know, and there's a lot to be said about keeping your superstars happy. But there's the other side of that where, you know, sometimes the warriors get, you know, annoyed with, you know,

all the, all the stuff that Draymond provides, everything. Like, all the stuff that comes with Draymond, you know, you know, he can, he's a great teammate. He's a great leader, but he also can be draining, you know, that we've seen that before. And, you know, sometimes, and he hates when you say that, but, like, there's been times we're like,

has Draymond lost a step? Has the Draymond, like, has he? Absolutely, yeah. You know, we have thought that. So, Draymond's going to be the tricky one. I don't, And when I say the team could look different, I'm not saying, I don't know after this year, but, you know, it's going to be interesting to see Draymond's future with the Warriors. Just you're going to have to pay him a lot.

And I know his availability has just been on the timeline a lot, you know, seeing what he, like, what he'll do and where he'll go. It'll be interesting. I think if, you know, if the Warriors don't, if they don't come to an agreement with Dre or if they don't, If there is an end of the row with Dre, it's going to be interesting. The Pistons are obviously an intriguing team just because he's so close to them. But also the Lakers. If LeBron is still there, the Lakers would definitely be an intriguing option for Draymond. Because, I mean, these days, Draymond spends more time with LeBron than he does with Steph.

Like, you know, when LeBron goes to Drew League, like, whose front row is Draymond? You know, it's, and he lives out there, that would be an intriguing possibility. but the Warriors are just in an interesting state. This season is going to be one of those seasons where the nostalgia is going to be there, but you might want to just appreciate what you see this season because it's going to be like, I think drastic changes

next off season, next summer. I think that makes sense. And there really were kind of two phases to what the Warriors were doing this off season, right? There's the first phase, which is, are we going to keep Gary Payton the second Otto Porter and Namanya B. Elitsa and those guys? The answer is no to any of those guys.

They all signed with different teams or Nomania B. Elisa got up out of the NBA. And then there's the second phase, which is all this extension stuff. And although that seems like a distant concern, all of these extension talks are very much present tense conversations, right? Because you look at Draymond's potential extension.

He is a guy who, if he is dead, set on I want this number, I want a four-year extension, and he doesn't get it, that becomes a looming problem over the course of your year. That's something that is in the locker room, that is in the air, that is something that is being talked about all season long. If Jordan Poole is dead set on getting his extension and doesn't get it, and I think the Warriors have every reason with Poole to play it out. I mean, he's going to be a restricted for age, and it's a totally different case. But if the Warriors don't feel like they want to give him that money, then they have to start thinking about

what does a Jordan pool trade look like like what is his market look like who else would be interested in him if we need to move the pool contract so that we can get the Wiggins extension done so that we can live with the bottom line financially you have to start having those conversations and

these are all individually very thorny cases to parse right you you nailed it with the Dremont situation what Dremont Green is what his basketball contributions are worth to the Warriors is so much more than almost any other team. And so do you pay him based on that?

Do you pay him based on what his open market value is, which I think would be much lower, but you never know. You really only need one team, whether it's the Pistons or Lakers or otherwise, to throw an offer at him. And then poof, one of the institutions of your franchise is gone.

Yeah. How you assess Draymond Green's value, how you assess Andrew Wiggins' value, who, as you mentioned, part of his, like, Andrew Wiggins is the perfect case of to be a championship team, you almost need your third and fourth players to be overqualified for their roles to win. That's just kind of where the NBA is right now. And if those are guys who are instead overperforming or overstretching to try to fit those roles,

then when you need them to step up in big moments, they can't. Wiggins is exactly the kind of player the Warriors need. And he's a very difficult type of player to replace as a wing guy who can score, who can defend, who can do all this stuff. Like, I think you have to pay that guy. And do you have to pay Dreyman? on green. I don't know. Do you have to pay Jordan Poole, probably, but not now? Do you have to pay Clay Thompson, who's also extension eligible? I think down the line, but also probably not now. He's at least got

two full seasons under contract. But oh my God, these are huge conversations to have for a franchise that if they just paid everybody, which I think is the instinct that a lot of basketball fans would say, just pay everyone, just give them all their extensions. That is a $500 million per season roster with the tax if you pay all these guys, which to your point about the athletics report, Marcus Thompson, did great reporting on that, basically said that's not a viable option. That's not even remotely realistic

for where the warriors are. And so they are printing money, but they're not printing $500 million worth of money, clearly. Also, Anthony Slater on that one too. But it's interesting because I want to stay on Draymond, but I do want to get to pool in wigs in a second. But

Draymond's so tricky also because him and his biggest advocate has been Bob Myers, the GM of the team that has to make all these decisions. You know? And it was funny because the end of the game six,

when they won the title, they were celebrating. You know, it was a big celebration between, you know, Clay, Dramond, and Steph. And it was a happy to be back at this moment,

but also like a big reminder that, you know, we don't lose when we're together. Hint, hint, hint. Not just the rest of the league, but hint, hint, front office. You know, you guys don't win without us. Hint, hint, you know. And so, you know, I know Dremont is very straightforward, but like, you know, the other guys like to throw some blames too, right?

Like, Steph was even throwing that, you know, we haven't, you know, we know we haven't lost together, right? He's been, they've been doing that. And that's been, you know, this team still centers around Steph. And now, I don't know if he has carte blanche like some of the other superstars. I think there's a bit more partnership in terms of, you know, with Steph in the front office. But I don't know, man. It's hard to see if he'll win out on this one.

We'll see. It depends on what, you know, Draymond acts for or what they come to. Now, as far as Wiggins and Poole, that's another conversation because pool. pool has an advantage on his side because he was homegrown in that system you know and they they seen him grow and do all these things in and the same way that clay and step and draymond he's on that track because he was drafted by the organization and everybody loves him you know i think that uh you know steve kurt told me um earlier to season that our hope is that we pass the baton to him, you know. So I do think that they want to get pool locked in. Now, they do have, you know, they can't get an extension done before the season. I think it would behoove them to wait a little bit just to see what he does.

If he does take that next step, you know, because this was just one season. And so if he can continue to maintain consistency, we'll see. Wiggins is a tricky case. I don't know. I don't, I just, I don't have my finger on if they, if he, if they cash him all the way out or if they kind of take a wait and see approach or do it maybe do a sign trade or something like that his his future here isn't as ironclad as some other people so like I said I think that goes back to the overall point of this is like the last

season of this iteration does it mean that they're not going to continue for titles no I think that that's their ultimate goal but they it's time for their young guns to pop this season because those are the cheaper guys. And I think whether they pop or not, not this season coming up, but next season they're going to have a large role regardless because the high money, all the high money guys aren't going to be there after this season. I think that's a really smart read on it, especially because we're having this conversation with Poole now, because he's coming off year three of his career. Moody and Comingar at that same place in two years. You know, these conversations are not going away. The numbers will change. They'll slide around. And of course,

If you get one of these giant contracts off the books, it becomes a little simpler and easier to manage. But those big contracts are attached to essential championship players. And as we talk about, guys who are very difficult to replace, even if you do sign and trade Andrew Wiggins or do whatever you think is necessary to make this make sense from a basketball financial perspective, balancing all of that with talent

that's going to become increasingly expensive on the younger side of your roster, these are very difficult things to manage. And it's, again, all of this bottom line is a matter of like what the warriors are willing to spend. And I know that's not a very sympathetic position to come from. But they're already the most expensive roster in the history of the league. So asking them to basically start lapping the rest of the NBA in the process. I mean, you can ask it.

You can try to have those conversations. I don't know that it's very realistic. And so then you start looking at, you know, this is a great team that at some point is going to have to start tightening its belt somewhere in terms of some of these costs, some of these players. someone changes will have to be made in the next two seasons if not next season i ask you will they be back in the in the final four yes i think so i think they'll be there i think they'll be right in the thick of the title run next year um let's go to the boston celtics you know like this whole summer has been centered around kevin durant and we got another um report that you know basically essentially amounted to the celtics kicked the tires

on KD. Now, we don't know when they did it. We know when it was reported, which I think it up into their roster just a little bit. It kind of, it, it's not a stretch to say that it, it rubs some folks

in the, and the boss at Celtics organization the wrong one. And, but some folks, I mean, Shailen Brown. He didn't seem thrilled.

You know? He didn't seem thrilled by it, right? And that's just interesting, right? Because he's, clearly Tatum is the golden child, right? They're not trading, they're not trading,

hate him. You got to feel for for Jalen Brown, who is one of those guys that has been really, really good. I think he's like one of those Jimmy Butler types that consists, is consistently great, but consistently gets overlooked and how almost underrated in that way every year. And then you see him every season. Like, oh, Jalen Brown is good guys. Just so you know. What do you think, where do you think this, this, this, uh, this goes for, for Brown. Right? Is he, is he, I think he has two years left on his deal. Does he just be like, man, fuck this. Like you guys, I've always in some kind of rumor, I'm always doing this.

Or does he like, okay, this is what it is for being thought of as a number two. This is just what I have to go to be on this team. This isn't the first time he's kind of gotten this type of coverage. Yeah, not at all. I mean, he's been in every significant superstar to come on the market. There's, do we trade Jalen Brown for Kowai Leonard? You know, you can find that content out there from when he was leaving San Antonio. So this is not a new phenomenon by any means.

But I do think the conversation is interesting and thorny. And in particular, do you give up Jalen Brown for 34-year-old Kevin Durant? Right. Like that theoretical concept is a really fascinating philosophical place to start. And in particular, because I think you get to this place where you're not getting Jalen Brown necessarily forever, even if you don't trade for Kevin. Durant, right? You mentioned, could be a free agent in two seasons, could be up out of there by his own choice. And I think there's a distinct difference between, you know, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum were a little prickly about the conversation of whether you need to trade to break them up

in the middle of the season. And clearly they were right to be prickly about it. Clearly, that's a team that can get to the NBA finals. They validated all of those concerns. They washed a lot of that away. But it's pretty different when you're talking about, do we need to break up this team versus is I'm Jalen Brown. I'm a free agent for the first time in my career. I've never really gotten the opportunity to be the guy on a team that I'm on. And in fact, I've been asked to be the fourth guy on some of these Celtics teams.

I've been asked to flex my role and to scale down to be less than what my talent says I am. Am I really going to turn down max money to go to a, admittedly probably a lesser basketball situation, but one in which I get to be more prominent. That's such a different conversation. And so you're basically like, I think what you're betting on as the Celtics is, do we want to maximize our window now with trading for Durant, if that takes Brown and smart or whoever it takes to get there, basically betting on a Jason Tatum, Kevin Durant Core and trying to win over these next two years, essentially? Or do we think, do we think we can resign Jalen Brown? What is our confidence level in that?

Because if you think that there's only like a 60 to 70% chance that you're going to resign Jalen Brown, I think the Kempower. I think the Kevin Durant conversation starts to get pretty spicy pretty quickly. I do wonder what this does for the psyche of the next year's Boston Celtics team. Because it still seems even after a finals run, they were pretty fragile. You know, and I wonder what these rumors do for a team, right? Because we talk about the finals winners and what they do after they win the title. But like the finals losers, it doesn't really. see it since what i would say the since uh the warriors uh cavaliers run of where they just went

played each other every year like the next year for the finals loser has not been great you know and you talk about a young team um led by two young dudes i'm really curious to see what that does like jalen uh jaylin is one thing but jason tatum as well because jason tatum has had an interesting summer right like usually when you see a guy lose in the way that he lost. I think the biggest example is LeBron when he lost his title. They usually like kind of disappear, you know? They kind of, you know, kind of get in a lab and figure it out.

Jason Tatum's been outside, you know? He's been getting advice from Jay Z. He's been kicking it. He's been going to movie premieres. He's been figuring out. And I just not cast anything on Jason or what he does or doesn't do with his time. It's just interesting.

I wonder what he's going to be next year because this is a guy that took the finals lost pretty hard. We were there, those two, during the finals, and the press conference where he has the ball in his hand and where, you know, sinus seems like he was, you could tell this was his first time there. And I'm curious to see, you know, when you have a team that's on the,

on the rise like the Celtics are, you got to be careful with them. You got to really be careful with the rumors and all those things of, I'm really curious to see what they are next year. I don't know. Even if Durant or if Durant ever comes or if he doesn't come,

what are the ramifications of that trade rumor, you know, for this iteration of Celtics? I think you're right to pinpoint that this was a really emotional loss for the Celtics. I think it is for any team that loses in the finals, but they took it really hard. hard. It was really clear in those post-game press conferences, and rightly, they felt they were

close. They felt like it was right there for them and that they blew an opportunity. And yet, I'm sure they also felt like, okay, finally we can put some of this stuff behind us as far as Jalen Brown being in persistent trade rumors, for example. And so it's, this isn't what happened, but it's kind of a fascinating like sci-op thing that Kevin Durant has done here, which is take the defending Eastern Conference champs and now there's these big questions about how Jalen Brown feels about playing for that team.

Just something to consider for future superstars. If you ever want to just stir some shit up, request a fake trade and then just see what happens as the other teams start like looking around their locker rooms and talking about his request a trade right now? Are you telling me and I just like be the ringer guinea pig and just be like, yo,

hey O Simmons, I'm trying to get traded. right now. Logan, we have never lost when we play together. We've never lost. We are the dream on, specifically have never lost. Don't do it.

Okay. Don't do it. I don't want to do it. I'm just saying like, I'm just asking if that's what you were asking me to do, sir. No, no. I'm just saying if you're another star

and you're thinking, man, the Celtics camaraderie is really good right now. Wouldn't it be a shame if someone lied to grenade? Let's fuck it up. You know? It's not a bad strategy as accidental strategies go.

but all of this to say the Celtics are in kind of a precarious place for a team that just had a really successful season and I think the one of these four teams we're talking about that actually got better like the personnel of their roster actually improved in bringing in Malcolm Brockton in adding Danilo Gallinari.

You know, two guys who have extensive injury histories but like let's see what they got because what you were playing with alternatively is guys who weren't really even in your playoff rotation or at least in your finals rotation. So they should be as likely as any of these four teams to get back to the finals. But there is that question of like,

where are they going to be mentally coming off of that kind of disappointment, plus this kind of trade rumor, plus, as we've seen historically, whatever it is that happens to the Celtics over the course of a regular season, because it's always a lot. And Boston Celtics, another team that got a meeting with Kevin Durant in 2016.

You know, I mean, the one thing to look at, right, and I'm not aggregators chill out. So I was always curious Just to see like this is something that I think going forward You always should look at is the teams that all that got the meeting

But didn't necessarily get the star that time Because in 2014 LeBron was a free agent You know who got a meeting with LeBron but didn't get him The Los Angeles Lakers Just saying With that being said Will the Celtics be back

I don't think so I think they will but I don't feel great about saying that I'm gonna say because I don't feel great about it I'm gonna say

I don't think so yeah I totally get it I'm gonna give them a vote of confidence I'm gonna say you know healthy Rob Williams

you know coming in with this new blood another year for Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown I'm gonna say they get back but it's gonna be

a rocky road to get there yet again all right there we go this is fun man this was fun I love when we do podcast together, but this was good.

Always. That was another edition of the Ringer MBA show. This is the Dog Days edition. Just want a little housekeeping note for real ones. We will be having our two-year anniversary show really, really soon. So I will send the tweet out when it's time. You know, we want you to call in, lock in what is. Let's go down memory lane.

Ask any questions that you want to ask. We will drop the number in the next, like, say like next week or so. you know, let's let's go with that. We're going to have our two-year anniversary really soon next month. So make sure you guys be on a lookout for that. Anything you want to plug for group chat? Do you have a gift picked out for Raja? Like, are you getting him an anniversary?

Like, I mean, first year is paper. I don't know what two-year anniversary even is. Is he going to give me a gift? This is the question. He's the NBA player, Raja. Hey, give me a give, bro. What's you? What's up?

But I don't know. I don't know yet. We'll see. I think you're right on the dynamic. He owes you for hosting the show. My words, I mean, your words, not mine. Anything you want to play for group chat? Anything you guys got going?

Anything you got going in particular? We're in TBD mode right now, right? Like, we're coaching at these summer shows. We'll see when group chat. Group chat will return, you know, in ominous big letters on the screen. We'll see when that is. But, you know, I'm enjoying these mixed up pairings. I'm enjoying podding with you, Logan.

Man, it's been a blast, man. See you guys soon, man. This has been another edition of the Ringer NBA show.