The Ringer NBA Show - Quarter Season Review: Revisiting Preseason Takes | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

We're about a quarter of the way through the NBA season, so now is a great time to revisit some of our predictions from the preseason. Howard Beck and Michael Pina assess what has happened so far this season, and if their predictions have been accurate. Plus, who’s the Most Valuable Player and Coach of the Year so far? Revisiting hottest preseason takes (10:05) Stubborn take (21:55) Bold take (35:41) Coach of the First Quarter of the Season (57:37) MVP of the first quarter of the season (01:55:00) Mailbag (01:49:07) Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Check out Michael Pina’s latest piece: https://www.theringer.com/2025/12/01/nba/nba-awards-2025-26-nikola-jokic-luka-doncic-shai-gilgeous-alexander-mvp Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out rg-help.com to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Howard Beck and Michael Pina Producers: Liz Jerry and Clifford Augustin Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Real Ones. I'm Howard Beck. Joining me today, our good friend Michael Pina, we are talking about the quartermark of the NBA season. Yeah, 20 games down. It's time for teams to actually face the reality. Maybe we weren't as good as you thought you were going to be back in July and August. Or maybe your way out in front of where you thought you'd be and it's time to make the all-in trade. So we go through some of the surprises and disappointments and a few takes.

maybe we'd like back. Also our MVP of the quarter season, our coach of the quarter season. And of course, it's a Tuesday. So we will dive into the mailbag. All of that coming up next on the real ones. It's the real ones. Howard Beck, senior writer at the Ringer. Logan Murdoch is off today.

Raja Bell, bit under the weather. Get well soon, Raja. But joining me from his luxury penthouse apartment in Borum Hill, about 10 blocks away from me, is Ringer Senior writer Michael Pina. Pina, how are you my friend? I'm doing great. I have huge shoes to fill today, and I will probably come up short, but I'm happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. It's actually multiple shoes. You have to fill four different shoes. It's not like one. It's an impossible task. It's an impossible task.

Literally impossible to fit the human body into four shoes, I hope. How was your Thanksgiving? Kids have a good time. Do you take them to the parade? Anything fun in the peanut household? No parade. I went to the park, which was nice and had a bunch of family over. We stayed in New York. It was lovely. The food was excellent. So couldn't ask for more. We had a nice curve in the Thanksgiving fair this year. We have friends up in Westchester County who have been hosting us for many years. Appreciate them. Lobster mac and cheese was added to. the menu this year. Oh, that's incredible. Fantastic. Highly recommend. By the way, I also do recommend taking the kids to the parade when you get a chance. It's one of the joys of living in New York. We get to do this thing. So it is sometimes very cold and sometimes very rating. Nevertheless, I recommend it. The kids love it. We're going to jump into a bunch of stuff

about the quarter poll of the NBA season because we were right around that time. We are 20, 21 games in for most teams. Before we get to that quick bit of news this morning coming in, Danilo Gallinari retiring. I know a lot of NBA fans probably thought that Gallo had already retired, but he'd been kicking around to other leagues. But good, like nice, long NBA run for a guy who had a lot of knee problems once he got to Denver. I just wanted to give him the quick shout-up because I got to cover Gallo as a rookie when he was drafted by the Knicks.

A lot of fun, you know, fun player had great potential. a time there was looking like one of those guys during a long string of those guys that the Knicks thought, okay, this is this is the guy who's going to like finally lead us back to prominence. And he played with Amari for a while there. They of course traded him for Carmelo. He was the key piece of that trade. So he still ends up being kind of key to the Knicks kind of coming out of that era. I had a really good career. By the way, he had a couple of like really memorable showdowns with Carmel. I think both before and after that trade where he kind of went toe to toe with him for a while. Dirk Novitsky even at one point had told me

for a story I did that he thought that Gallow was ahead of where Dirk was at a similar point in their careers didn't work out that way or that well after that point but talented, a lot of fun to cover, had a nice NBA career. So congrats to Gallo and best wishes in retirement. I did not know that that he retired. You're breaking news to me live on the pod.

I love those Denver teams from about 15 years ago. Those were wonderful with Iggy and Wilson Chandler and I think Evan Fornier was Timofay Mosgum. Yeah. Oh, who could forget? Those were very fun teams, very fun teams. Aaron Aflalos in there somewhere. Yeah.

I mean, a rare thing that normally when you trade the best player in the deal, which Carmelo obviously was, and you're doing that usually at gunpoint, you're never getting full value and you're usually taking massive steps backward. The Nuggets and the Knicks in the couple, two, three seasons after that were basically neck and neck in terms of like wins, playoffs, everything else. Like they did really well. The Nuggets made as good a trade as they could have made. And that assortment of players while not having a superstar to orbit around like Carmelo, those Nuggets teams were actually pretty fun. A lot of fun Nuggets teams there, Gallo at the center of it. And then he had a knee surgery that went wrong. And things were

never quite the same for him, which was unfortunate. He bounced around for a while. But anyway, best wishes to gallo. The Ringer NBA show is presented by Fandall. Fandall, same game parlayes, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the Fandul app or head to fandle.com slash ringer MBA to get started. 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming.

Gambling problem. Call 1800 gambler or visit RG dash help. dot com call 188-78-9-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Pina, you are here today with me to discuss quarter poll the season, which you touched on in a piece this week at the ringer.com with your quarter season awards. We'll touch on a couple of those later. But the reason I wanted to just talk about where we are at this moment is because, of course, in the NBA, 20 games is kind of your moments of reckoning. Every team has played or almost every teams we play between 20 and 22 right now.

There's a few that are straggling at like 18, 19, but they'll get there in the next day or two. Teams are taking stock now. Front offices are meeting with each other, with their coaches, with ownership and everything, because this is when you wake up in early December and realize, oh, shit, we're not quite as good as we thought we were going to be. Maybe we're not a playoff team, or maybe we're still a playoff team,

but not a contender. And maybe actually we're ahead of schedule. Is it time to be all in? Is it time to be a seller? Trade season's coming up. Those decisions are coming soon. I wanted to look back real quick because people might think, well, 20 games is like, you know, that's still really early. Like we are very early season. And it's true. There will be some unexpected changes of pace by some of these teams. But just to look back at last year this time, December 2nd of 2024, this is how the West looked. Oklahoma was first. They finished first.

Houston was second. They finished second. It gets a little weird after that, but like Memphis was third at this time last year. They finished eighth, but the Grizzlies, it's always injuries and other stuff going wrong. The Warriors were fourth this time last year and finished seventh, but only two games separated third from eighth in the final Western Conference standings. So it's a little misleading, and they got Jimmy in the middle of all of that. The Mavericks at this time last year were fifth and finished 10th. What happened to do?

What happened there? I don't know. Is it a mystery? Has that been solved? Some sort of momentary insanity gripped them and suddenly a generational player disappeared. They finished 10th. The clippers at this time last year were 6. They finished 5th.

So it tracks quite a bit. In the east, it was even more reliable with like the tiers fairly well tracked, right? You might be up or down a couple of spots. But by and large, you know, barring some massive tricks. or massive injury, teams have kind of settled into where they're probably going to be. So it's also been, by the way, I think a fairly calm first quarter of the season. Correct me if you feel like that's an overstatement. But like, yes, Nico Harrison was fired.

So we've had one GM go down, one coach go down, Willie Green in New Orleans. We've had one job Morant suspension. But this like the salary caps or convention scandal and the gambling scandal are kind of in the background. So there's no, there's no real major drama. Like no one has demanded out yet. I think everyone's all of a sudden keeping an eye on Janus, who apparently deleted a bunch of Buck's stuff from his Instagram this morning, allegedly. It's a no major drama yet, but it's probably coming. Things to keep an eye on. Bucks, nine and 13. So Janus mood check daily from here on out. Hawks thriving without Trey, keeping an eye on that. Caves are 13 to 9,

a little below expectations and I wonder injuries aside, you know, are they going to look to to maybe have a minor shakeup, not a major one? Um, wolves have been kind of up and down. Sons are off to such a fast start that I'm now fearing that Matt Ishb is going to make an all, another all-in move any minute now, because, because like, hey, why not? Um, we're on, we're on John Morant watch at all times. Uh, we might be on Clipper Fire Sale watch. We'll get to it. Um, and then there's just some teams that are just, they're miserable and they're, then they're just already done. All right.

So as we look ahead, though, I think we need to look back a little bit to everything that we thought was going to happen in October. Let's start here, Mr. Pina. What's one preseason take that you would like to retract as we hit the quarter pole?

As in, we were just wrong. So every year I write a increasingly bold predictions column at the ringer. One of my favorite things. Oh, thank you so much. It comes out a few weeks before the year starts. And, you know, the idea is to be serious, but also increasingly a little bit facetious with what I'm thinking will happen this season.

And one of my predictions was that the Phoenix Suns would have the worst defense in the NBA. It prompted Sons owner Matt Ishbia to tweet angrily at our boss Bill Simmons. And you know what? Matt Ishbio was right. The sons have been tremendous. That was a really stupid prediction on my part. I love watching this team play basketball. I love their tenacity.

I love their relentlessness. I love their game plan execution. I love just their, like the fact that they are winning games and winning minutes without Devin Booker being superhuman. Like right now they're 13 and nine. And granted, it's been against a little bit of a semi-soft schedule. And if you look at what's to come, it's an absolute bloodbath and they could really slide down the standings. But for now, I mean, it's just been like excellent. Like they're better with Devin Booker off the floor. He's averaging his typical 25 and 7, but he's not really super efficient.

or anything like that. They're winning with just like hard work, effort, discipline. Dylan Brooks has been phenomenal. And last night, he was like the best player on the court in a game that had LeBron James, Luca Donchurch and Austin Reeves in it. Colin Gillespie, I'm sorry. I was not familiar with your game. I would not have made that prediction if I knew that he would just be this like sixth

man of the year candidate, most improved player of the year candidate. He's been unbelievable, like a true. season turning type of player. And I will say, like, in my defense before I let you speak, Howard, a part of my prediction was that Jalen Green was going to be playing a lot of minutes for this team. You mean their key off-season acquisition? Exactly. And so him playing, I think, like, one game, two games this year, one and a half games,

that has definitely helped. I mean, someone like Colin Gillespie, for example, would not have broken out, I don't think, with the opportunity that he had. So, yeah, like, I don't want to, I'm just going to, yeah, I was wrong. I take accountability for it. The sons are great. Love watching them play. They're hard to beat.

Like, they lost a recent game against the Oklahoma City Thunder, and normally the Thunder just kind of pull away late in games, and that was just, like, the Sunsians' don't quit is I guess what I'm trying to say. And so shout out to them. They're tremendous. Shout out to Jordan Ott. He was an honorable mention for Coach of the Year in my quarter season awards column. And this team has been probably the biggest overachiever of the season, I would say. Yeah, I mean, it's them and the Raptors neck and neck, but I would actually give the Suns the edge because the Raptors, you know, had a lot more established, I want to say established high-end talent, but a lot more established players, period. And the Suns were in what was kind of a pseudo-terdown

and I don't think anybody knew where this would pan out and with a rookie head coach to boot. So, yeah, really incredible stuff. I look forward to your extensive Twitter apology to manage you to add to that chain. And, yeah, I mean, shame on you. You know, really, really just terrible stuff. I mean, listen, in your defense, and it doesn't even need defending, the whole point of that column is increasing. Increasingly bold predictions. So the point is to take the sliver of something and take it to its logical extreme, which

you did. And I think if I'm recalling correctly, Michael, wasn't that one like a little lower in the column? So like, do you go increasingly bold? So that one was one of the bolder ones? It was pretty bold. Yeah. Right. And they're not all intended to be right, quote unquote, right?

Like usually you're ending with a few that are just actually preposterous and you're just having fun. If you had a gun to my head, I would have said the Sacramento Kings. but I'm writing this column to try to be provocative. So yeah. Yeah, that's the point. Matt Ishbia may not have quite understood the point of the exercise. But that's okay.

That's okay. Matt Isbia, don't make any trades between now and five. Just, just chill. Just enjoy the ride. The preseason take I would most like back is at the other end of the spectrum, which is that I was pretty damn sure the clippers were a top four team in the Western Conference. I had Tailu as my preseason coach of the year. I even had Chris Paul.

in a giddy fit of Pina-like bold predictions. I even had CP3 as my sixth man of the year. You did? I believe I did. Yeah. Wow. Wow. 40-year-old, Chris. Wow. Wow.

It was, look, there was a lot of, there was a lot wrapped up in that. Part of it was, he'd had a perfectly, you know, sound, solid season with San Antonio. He was coming to a Clipper team that you knew he was going to be a, a full-time reserve for the first time in his career.

But he's always been like an incredible like plus minus darling, advanced stats, darling, where the advanced stats were going to support the idea that like, hey, their second unit is this much better because Chris Paul is out there. And the clippers while old, they were deep, at least. So we thought in October. And I thought that given where they left off last season, they would pick it right up. And Chris Paul would get a lot of credit for having a great second year. unit or a very good second unit.

Plus, you know, look, there's a little bit of nostalgia wrapped up here. Back to the Clippers where he launched Lob City and put them back or put them on the map for the first time as a franchise ever. The likely farewell tour, which is what it's become. It was a bit of a reach, you know, put that after whatever your boldest, increasingly bold prediction was in your column and it would still be too bold probably. I thought they would be, you know, old but deep. And they did win 50 games last year with Kauai playing only 37 out of 82. And Hardin was still

great. And Zubach was excellent. Adding Beal, Chris Paul, Brooke Lopez, John Collins, it all seemed like, okay, they'll do the same thing again at minimum. I think the lesson here is that I completely underrated Norm Powell on both ends of this. How important he was to the Clippers and how important he would end up becoming to the Miami Heat, who are one of the surprise good teams of the quarter season. And I just did not, I could not imagine Norm Powell. Like, it was a breakthrough season.

All-Star caliber flirted with season. Did not think in my wildest dreams that Norm Powell was going to, would have been so critical to the Clippers and their success last season and now to what the heat are doing. Because it's the only major change. I think there are some chemistry things going on. I think there are some aspiration scandal things seeping in. I think there's just things are just kind of, you know, sometimes things just go off the rails without notice.

But from a personnel standpoint, like, dude, how much do they miss Norm Powell right now? And was that perhaps, you know, what we can get into later, maybe some of the, you know, deals that went awry this summer. But that might have been a mistake. And I mentioned this on, I think it was on Zach's pod recently. I understood what they were doing. They're trying to keep their cap sheets clear in 2027 when only Zubotches on the books. Powell's do a big extension, which at his stage, you know, in early 30s, they probably were hesitant or definitely were going to be hesitant to want to do. But you could have always moved him again if you still wanted to create more room in 27.

And it was, I mean, hindsight 2020. It was a bad deal. It was a bad trade. I don't want to step on one of our prompts coming up, which was the, you know, worst deal that you thought would be a good deal or something like that. But yeah, that was mine. Yeah. Just, you know, to be fair to the Clippers, and I just wrote a column, my first negative

column about the Los Angeles Clippers in about seven years, that'll be on the ringer.com later this week. but, you know, to be fair to the Clippers, they thought that they, it's not like they traded Norm Powell for John Collins and they were just going to leave this hole at that position. They had a feeling or knew that Bradley Beale was going to be on the team. They knew. And they did not know that Bradley Beale would be terrible for six games and then have hip surgery and be out for the rest of the season.

So I think if they had a crystal ball and they were able to see that they would lose that type of production from that position. I don't know if they would have made that trade. And it has been a total disaster for them. And, you know, where do you even begin with the Los Angeles clippers? I mean, a lot of the other signings, like, nothing has gone right. It's a gallon of milk that is several days past its expiration date. Brooke Lopez was a serviceable starting center last season. He is currently out of Tileu's rotation with Kobe Brown taking his spot. That is also something that I don't think that the Clippers anticipated when they

signed him to a two-year deal this summer. They did not know that Derek Jones Jr. would get hurt, obviously. Sprayed his MCL. He's out about another month. Chris Paul has not looked. Spray. And what's really interesting about this is obviously the defense, you know, they go from third best defense to like third worst defense or something like that right now after a total shalacking against the Miami Heat that saw Ty Lou bench his starting five, not even two minutes into the second half last night. But what's really interesting about this is James Hardin and Kauai Leonard have been excellent. Like excellent. And so if you told me that James Hardin was going to have his

best statistical start to a season since he was in Houston. And you told me that Kauai Leonard would score more points on higher true shooting through his first 11 games of a season than any other season in his entire career, which is what he's done. And the Clippers would be minus 42 with Kauai on the court. I would not believe you. Based on Kauai's entire history of when he's on the floor, his team is good when he's playing well on the floor, like even better. So I don't know, I just don't know where they go from here as an organization knowing that the Oklahoma City Thunder own their first round pick in this year's draft. And, you know, I don't want to step on the column too much, but like trading Kauai Leonard is

totally on the table, in my opinion. And it's something that should definitely be explored. There might be a mailbag question to this effect that we'll get to at the end of the episode. So we'll come back to this most likely. All right. Next one is one stubborn take, also in the category of things we might have been wrong about in October. One stubborn take you're sticking to despite the results through 20 games. Like, data be damned, standings be damned.

I still believe what? I still believe that the Celtics are bad and that they will miss the playoffs. Wow. Wow. Just turning on your own childhood team like that. That's a rough beat. So right now they're 11 and 9. They are in eighth place in the Eastern Conference.

But they rank 11th in net rating. And they rank fourth in offensive rating. And I don't really... I kind of get how this is happening. I think that Joe Missoula has completely reoriented how they play defense to accommodate the roster. He's, you know, basically, I don't want to say he's punted on defense. rebounding and punted on defensive free throw rate to up turnovers, but that is exactly what has happened. And the result is Boston is basically leading the possession game, which is,

you know, they've taken more shots than their opponent this season, which is not how Oklahoma City won the title last year, but was a huge reason why the Thunder won the championship last season. They just had more possessions and more opportunities than their opponent. So I think that that is a really smart thing that Missoula has enacted with this roster, with athletes and youth and all that sort of stuff. But the other thing I kind of want to talk about is Jalen Brown. And he's having a, he's, you know, some of his numbers have dipped a little bit because we're technically in a small sample. And when you go three for 13 against the Cleveland Cavaliers, as they did the other night, things will get impacted.

a little bit, but he's still the league leader in mid-range shot attempts, and he's more accurate from the mid-range than just about everyone who's high volume. Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, Shea Gilgis Alexander. In fact, from the mid-range, right now Jalen Brown is better than Shea was last year when Shea won MVP and was just absolutely lights out from on long twos. I mean, Jalen Brown is hitting these off-balance shots, contested shots, lay clock shots, really difficult, high degree of difficulty stuff. And I, you know, he's just never done this before at this rate, taking these type of shots. And I don't know what it means in terms of sustainability. And I don't know what it means in terms of if it is real.

and he is basically like, you know, more athletic Kauai Leonard, to a certain extent. Like, what does that do for his future on a team that is adding Jason Tatum? And I say, I ask that question in a positive light and how much higher does it raise the ceiling of that duo. So those are just something I want to, something I just wanted to kind of throw at you from what you've seen with Jalen Brown. and I have a few more stats I'll throw at you with him after you kind of hit me back with your thoughts. But I just think the Celtics are like bad. And I don't, I really don't get it.

Yeah, I just don't get it. Listen, I was all over the map with them in the offseason because there was a part of this where I thought, you listen, just the basics core of the team, right? Jalen Brown's a great player. Like, hasn't had a carry team by himself, but is incredibly talented. player finals MVP. Derek White, really good player. In a bigger role, I think he can handle more.

And Peyton Pritchard backfilling kind of Derek White then, okay, you've got like these three great offensive generators and, you know, some defense there to go with it. And then it falls off a cliff as you look at basically almost the rest of the roster and especially the front court, right? And you think, just as you start to talk yourself into as I was in the offseason, you know what? I think they can defy expectations. I think they can be respectable without Jason Tatum, just not a contender. They'll be they can beat the fringes of the playoff pack. They'll be in the play and something. And then you start to see the rotation in the front court. And it's like, oh, good Lord. And I landed a little bit closer to you than where I was originally in the preseason,

thinking, yeah, shouldn't put a lot of stock in this, even despite the fact that Missoula is just going to do everything possible and never let them lose. Jalen Brown I was watching him against the Timberwolves the other night Did Jailen Brown like surgically acquired new hands in the off-season? It was the best handle I think I've ever seen on him

multiple times on multiple possessions. He's putting the ball between his legs, crossing over once, twice, three times, you know, getting guys off balance, blowing by or fading away. And I'm like, like, his, I don't want to say Achilles heel. Achilles is a dangerous word to invoke in any context in the NBA now.

His weakness had long been as a guy who was otherwise an elite offensive player, an elite player period, like the handle, you know, make Jalen Brown put the ball on the floor a little too much and it's going to work to your advantage of the defense. And he just looks completely like a completely different player with that in that game. I mentioned this to a scout last night who said, yeah, that depends on which game you were watching. Because like that was one of his better games. And then there have been a couple recently, I guess, that I didn't see where it's still like squirting away from him.

But look, I think I'm leaning more toward, you know, recency bias is kicking in. I think I'm still leaning toward the idea that the Celtics can be respectable throughout the course of the season. I do think that like when you're relying so much on a couple of players and do not have the depth, it probably catches up to you in the course of an 82 game season, but the East is mostly meh to horrendous.

And so the possibility of the Celtics still being respectable in context, meaning they can be in the play-in hunt for sure, and maybe seventh or eighth seed when all said and done, not crazy. Some of my skepticism is based on the talent. And to be honest, some of it is based on the fact that they're a smart organization and they should realize that this season is a golden opportunity to tank? Like, I'm just being up front about it.

Like, what, like, why? Like, what is the upside here to do this? I don't understand it. Yeah. Can I, real quick, before we move on, can I throw at you the Jalen Brown stat that I just found so unbelievable? So right now, true shot attempts are basically all the shots you take on the court,

including free throws per one. 100 possessions. Brown right now leads the league in that stat. But beyond that, going back 10 years, here are the players who have topped the number that Jalen Brown is at in terms of true shot attempts he takes per 100 possessions. Russell Westbrook in 2017, James Hardin in 2019, and Joelle Embed in 2023. That's it. So he's shooting a ton. It's like, like we explain. that, but for him to be, for him, sure. And, you know, the efficiency is kind of dropping down slowly, which is what you'd expect. But he is carrying a load. And I just think he's been so excellent. I expected the volume to go up in a lot of areas, obviously without Tatum, Drew,

Christaps Porzingis, Al Horford, et cetera. But I just think he's been like an all NBA player this season easily. No, no question. And I don't want to put too much on this. But there were for years rumblings about when people talked about Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown long term. Part of the reason that people speculated a lot about them possibly being broken up was these constant murmurings that Jalen Brown feels like he could lead his own team. He could do more. He's getting his chance to do it now. And look, to his credit, he has shown he is more than capable of being the offensive engine of a team right now. I'm not trying to start anything. And I don't think this means that eventually when Tatum is healthy, suddenly you're going to like move off of Jail. That's fucking crazy. They are great together. I've always thought they were great together. That is in today's MBA,

you know, two big wings who can do a lot of stuff with the ball on their hands and, and defend multiple positions. Like, that's a great starting point. I'm keeping it. There's, you know, there are cap issues. There always are in today's NBA. But like this, what we're seeing from Jalen Brown now is what people always said, this is, this was his belief, that he could be this guy. And that he didn't necessarily need to be a second fiddle. But in this league, you know, if you want to win championships and contend you're in your out, sometimes you have to be the guy who's capable of being a leading man and accepting kind of the 1A, 1B role because it's what's best for your overall career and your

ability to, you know, win more hardware. So the stubborn take I'm sticking to despite the results through 20 games, I still believe in the Warriors. Shocker. Glad Logan's not on the pod today to just like, you know, make awful faces at me and fall over in his chair and then berate me. They're 12 and 7. Like, they're fine.

I still think they're potentially a top six team in the West. They've got a brutal schedule so far. 12 of their first 17 were on the road. Five back to backs already. And it's not, to the extent that they've struggled a bit here and there, it's not because the old guys can't handle it. Like Curry's missed whatever, four or five games. But Curry, Draymond Butler, they're still all doing what they do.

It's Jonathan Cuminga. the youngest important member of the starting lineup and top rotation guy who's been missing. And there were some really great signs from him for the first week or two and then some not so great signs and then he got hurt. Inevitably, I think one of two things is going to happen to make me still believe in the Warriors. Either Kaminga's coming back and will be fine and maybe play more like the guy we saw the first couple weeks or they're moving off of him. they're trading him and they're getting better fitting help around their old core. And what we have seen consistently from this team is that they are going to make moves. They're not going to sit tight and just let the string run out on Steph Curry's era.

If there's anything they can do between now and the trade deadline, they'll do it. So I still think they're at least in the running for a top six spot in the West. So I'm sticking to that. Any rebuttal or hole punching before we move on to the next topic? No, I think that that's fair. You know, after the first like three games of the season, I thought they look like a contender. And I've, if you were to ask me today, I'd be very, very surprised if they won a playoff series, to be honest. which, you know, says a lot about the Western Conference and where they will be when they enter the playoffs, most likely, going up against the Nuggets or the Thunder or the Rockets in round one, most likely.

But Steph has had just, I know he's hurt now and we'll be out a little bit with a, what is it, a quad, I think. but he's been super human in spots, typically brilliant. And I think like this is low-key, a genius season from Jimmy Butler. I think he's been like really flying under the radar as one of the better two-way wings in basketball this year. He's just, he looks vintage more often than not. So that's good to see. But yeah, I think this team has size issues. and, you know, Al Horford's battling sciatica, which not ideal.

So we'll see. But, you know, I think they have a long way to go before there and kind of that top-tier conversation. Yeah. And look, like the defense has been solid. The offense is like in the bottom third of the league. I don't think a team with Steph Curry on it should be or ultimately will be bottom third in offensive efficiency.

But again, like the schedule is beaten the hell out of them too, I think. and they're going to, that turns in their favor soon, right? More home games, and they got a lot of back-to-backs already out of the way. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move fast, and Amazon Prime keeps you in control with fast and free delivery. We've all been there. Family plans are fluid. Somebody's not coming.

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All right, next one up. One bold or boldish take you were right about and that Matt Eshbia did not berate you about. So I predicted before this season that the Milwaukee Bucks would be bad enough to finish in the plan and have no serious chance of doing any damage in the playoffs. I thought that Janus would eventually break down physically, trying to do everything for a team that was built to compliment him, but not really stand on its own two feet when he was not on the floor.

And that has borne out pretty much, almost exactly. So I understood heading into the season a lot of smart people being high on the Milwaukee Bucks because Janus is incredible and has had one of his best seasons. But I just always went back to looking at the roster. And it is just so underwhelming to me in terms of the lack of versatility, the lack of talent. and the lack of capable ball handling, playmaking, stuff that you need in today's NBA. So real quick, I'll give you their last three wins. Dating back to November 10th, which was a two-point win over the Dallas Mavericks that precipitated Nico Harrison getting fired.

They had an overtime win over the Charlotte Hornets, and they beat Brooklyn a few days ago. That's their last three wins. Those are their last three wins. Look at that competition. Last night they lost the Washington Wizards. Which just, yeah. Yon has deleted all of his bucks-related posts from social media. Except for the championship photos, which I saw were still there.

You can't delete the championship photos. Come on now. Come on. Yeah. But that's a very dramatic. I don't know what to make. What do we make of that? This is where I hate the era we're living in because stuff like this, we're always reading

tea leaves on fucking Instagram and other dumb places. And what I saw that somebody else had posted that this morning. I'm like, what? Is this real? Because, you know, the people who track that stuff, like, first of all, there's just so many, like ridiculous, whether they're parody accounts or just not reliable, not, not accurate accounts. And they spit this stuff out. People who are credible pick it up. And then so I, I wanted to go back and look. And the only thing I saw was that, okay, there's only like nine posts on his Instagram now, including that Bucks championship shot. But like, I don't know, do we have any proof that there were like hundreds of Bucks photos

that are now gone? I don't know. I'm always a little skeptical. I don't know what to believe anymore. Yeah, I think this is just like become the traditional passive aggressive way that disgruntled NBA stars like to convey their unhappiness. And if he did it, then that's great. It also provides like plausible deniability that, hey, yeah, sure, I just wanted to clean my social media.

Big deal. It's nothing to do with anything. So, you know, I don't really think about this stuff too much, but more like the on court fact that they lost to the Washington with. Like that is. We should be on Janus watch. We should be on Janus watch on the results alone. And I said this before the season, and I'll reiterate it now. it's not so much of what Janus has said or not said.

There's some of that too, though. But we always knew that the first quarter of this season, the first few months of this season, we're going to have some sort of impact on Janus's mood and potentially his future. And anybody who denied that is delusional. The guy wants to win championships. He has been absolutely consistent about that. He has given the bucks all the latitude and the time in the world to try to rebuild around him. And it's not gone that well.

It just hasn't. And Ryan Rawls is a fantastic find, and he's been a real nice bright spot. He's been great. He's been great. But the results are what they are. And if the Instagram deletion binge wasn't the warning sign or the warning shot, there still may be one to come.

Like, it was always going to be the case that if they started the season really badly, then the speculation about Janus would be ramping up. And we are right there. It's unfortunate. How do you think Janus felt when Chris Middleton hit the go-ahead jumper to basically put that game away? And Kyle Kuzma, I think he scored like three points in the whole game. Most inconsistent player in the NBA, probably. So not ideal.

Kuzma has just enough games where I'm watching going like, oh, wow, there's the old, like, L.A. Kuzma again. Like, he's, you know, he's defending. He's playing hard. He's going hard to the rack. And then the other guy comes back. Washington, Kuzma comes back. I will once again repeat free C.J. McCollum. He deserves better. He had a big shot in that game last night.

Oh, yeah. All right. Where did we leave off here? One boldish take you were right about. We got yours. It's time for mine. I did say, probably not with this particular explanation or support for. the take. I did say I thought the Sixers were going to be a lot better than expected, that they would be competitive, that they'd be respectable, that they'd be back in the thick of things. Okay, sure, I said that because I thought that Joelle Embed and Paul George would be like some semblance of their old selves for a consistent amount of time. And they're not, but they're good

anyway. I'm just taking the victory lap. Fuck it. Like, the Sixers have been really fun. They've been competitive. Tyrese Maxie is on a all-MBA campaign right now. And, you know, Edgecombe has been very good. He was, he was great. And then, you know, slowing down a little bit, looking like maybe the minutes and load were catching up to him, then he got hurt. Quentin Grimes has been good for them. Like, they're very guard heavy right now. And, you know, I don't even know what to make of Paul George and Joel Embed, indeed anymore. Although Paul George looked pretty good a couple nights ago when I watched, Embed looked labored to say the least, but he'd also just come back again from a couple weeks out.

I still think stubbornly that there's the outline of a decent team here because Joelle Mbd no longer has to be the man. Tyrese Maxey's the man now. And whatever they can get out of Mbid and Paul George is a bonus. That says... Can I just say though, like Embed his whole like... Forget about like the contract and how that just, you know. That's a whole other problem. I don't.

Yeah. That's a future problem. Forget about that. Forget about that. But his whole, like his role on a team is like his best function is as the center of gravity on offense. The guy who touches the ball a ton. You run everything through him. You get the pick and pops.

You get the just mid post, uh, excellent shooting. a lot of touches, a lot of post touch. He has the ball a lot. And if he's not able to do that because you're trying to kind of shift your offense towards Maxie and Edgecombe and, you know, Paul George for the time being when he's available, Quentin Grimes, et cetera, like, he needs to be excellent on defense. And he's not. That's like one of his worst attributes is the fact that he can't move.

He can't get to lose balls. He can't affect the glass like he used to. He's not an excellent rim protector anymore. He doesn't run the floor. I mean, like their transition defense when he's on the court is dreadful. So I don't know how you kind of shift from Embed as the center of everything on offense to your guard heavy play. if Embed is a net minus on defense because I need rebounding, I need rim running, I need, I need something else from that position if I'm going to have Maxi and all the guards and

ball handlers kind of shepherd my offense going forward. Does that make sense? No, it totally does. Here's the thing. It's so hard for us to adjust and recalibrate our expectations of a guy who has been a star throughout his career and suddenly isn't anymore, but could still contribute, right? Like, I don't know, late stages, Paul Pierce or something with Brooklyn and Washington and L.A. Trying to think of other guys who were, you know, Grant Hill and Phoenix. And granted, like, these are different kinds of players.

I'm just saying that we need to see Joelle and B differently now. And so do the Sixers. And I think they do. This is not the center of our universe. of our offense. And we're not using them at all the, the wonderful ways that we used to in which you just listed. It's now, here's a guy who is still skilled the most, more skilled the most big men in this, in this league. And even on a, it was a terrible game from the other night. He still ends up with like 18 points because he can shoot. And he doesn't, like, he doesn't jump anymore,

or at least, uh, wasn't in that game, but he doesn't need a lot of lift to get the shot off over most guys anyway. I think it was really alarming seeing how, unwilling he was to go anywhere near the basket and not even trying to rebound. Like watching a shot just kind of sail overhead and it's clear that it's offline and you're waiting to see him move and he's just, he's just watching. Is he just conserving himself in the first game back after another absence? Is he just being really careful because of everything he's gone through? Is there another gear or two to get to as he hopefully stays healthy for some semblance of weeks

at a time? I don't know. Your points will take it, especially about the defensive side of it. I think they can get away with him just being a contributor on offense who makes open shots, who can score from a variety of places and doesn't even have to put the ball on the floor and attack the basket to do it. Agree. Agree. But they have to get something from him as a defender and rebounder and paint presence, something. Because right now, Andre Drummond looks like their better option, and that's just insane. And with that, and with that, as they're going to double overtime the other night,

and I'm thinking, like, how long are they going to ride with him? Like, how long, are you doing? I think they're, they're like keeping him out there out of respect right now and out of, out of deference more so than who their best option might have. Now, Drummond was banged up too. And, you know, there's the, they start to have limited options, but still. And Bede's play has been alarming. That, let's be clear.

But the Sixers are competitive enough for me to still say I'm, I'm right on the overall take. I'm going to leave it there. All right. A few more before we get to Mailbag. We've already touched on this. We don't need to dwell on it because I think we have the same answer. But I had asked you in the notes before the show, give me one trade signing, hiring something in the offseason that's worked out either way better or worse than expected.

We have both mentioned Norm Powell, and I think he's the answer for both of us. And he fits both ends of this too, right? Worked out way better than expected, I think, for the heat. And way worse than expected for the clips. I don't know if there's much more to say about it other than since we've talked about the clippers. Maybe it's just a chance to praise the revived unexpectedly super fun and super competitive Miami Heat with Norm Powell at the center of it and carrying them for six weeks or whatever it was until Tyler Hero got back. The heater, my favorite team to watch in the league this season. I love their style of play.

It's singular. It's breakneck. just a joy to observe every night. It's unlike anyone else. And it's perfect for Norm Powell. I mean, he's such a seamless, scalable offensive player. And he's just run with it. And the tempo, the, we're not really running anything. We're just, you know, we're attacking in transition. You get your, your, your, your, your, uh, spot up threes on fast breaks, you can come off these little dribble handoffs and attack the paint. It's just a kind of a perfect role for him. And it took him a little while to get going last night against this former team. But once he did, he was just drilling open threes because

the clippers can't guard the perimeter. So yeah, it's a fantastic situation for him. I would love to see him get paid and I would love to see him make the All-Star team. I think it would be a great story and I think he's more than deserving. For sure. I have not started looking at like how that's all going to play out now with the new format and ballots that are separated by U.S. born players versus internet and all that. I don't know if that'll get him if he's going to get squeezed because of it, but he's absolutely deserving. We'll get to that exercise on another day. Hopefully not. Can we not?

I don't want to do that. Yeah, we don't need to do that. It's just going to play out how it does. It's such a headache. It's just, yeah, I can't even follow it anymore. We'll hope for the best. Shout out to Norman Powell. By the way, too, just with the heat,

I love the fact that not only is Spolster just so malleable in his coaching philosophy, as everyone has touched on by this point, but like he's the way they're playing um in today's MBA it is fascinating and I think encouraging and and just super fun to see a team that says basically like all right we we don't have the talent to out talent you um you know we don't jimmy butler anymore we don't even have Tyler hero uh norm Powell has never even made an all-star team but there's a way to there's a way to do this where we we just play a great team basketball. basketball. The ball is moving. Players are moving. Nobody holds it for too long. And the pass is

faster than your defender's feet. And we're going to find openings. And we're just going to keep attacking until we get an open shot. And to be able to be that competitive without having star power is really important in a league where there really aren't that many game-changing players. And it's great seeing teams be creative and finding new ways to deploy their guys. And this is no, you know, this is not knocking Bam out of Iowa, who obviously is a star of a different sort. And even Norm Powell. But these are not your prototypical, I'm going to build around this guy. He's my foundation and everything else flows from there.

So anyway, it's been a lot of fun. All right, a couple of quick ones before we get to the mailbag. Will the Oklahoma City Thunder break the single season wins record of 73? And should they want to? I'm going to go, no. I think that the Thunder are exceptional. I also think that injuries, self-preservation, you know, they're coming off a finals run, they're gearing up for another finals run, like, just you don't need to put your foot on the gas.

I know that they're really deep and young, but just don't risk anything would be my advice, if anyone ever listened to me. But I also, you know, am taking note of the fact that they've had the easy, schedule in the league, which has been talked about ad nauseum and the hardest remaining schedule. And the West is really tough. So they're excellent. I'm surprised every time a game is even competitive in the fourth quarter with them,

to be honest. Like, that's how good they are. I have nothing bad to say. I just think that 73, 74 wins is a crap ton. And for a team that, like, I just think, like, this. their goal should be to repeat as champions. And it's really hard to do both as the Golden State Warriors found out several years back. Right. And even for all of that, and I think the warriors themselves have, maybe not all of them, some of them have admitted that maybe it was, it took a lot out of

them and was not the wisest approach. That is a good lesson for everybody else to follow if you have any chance, not that anybody ever usually does, except for right now, but that is a good lesson learned or anybody else who even thinks about trying to chase that record. And despite all that, the Warriors still could have won the championship, if not Dremont getting suspended in the middle of the series. I don't think they're going to get it, the Thunder, and I don't think they should want to. I think winning back-to-back championships,

especially now in an era of just unrivaled parity and how difficult it is to repeat at all, that should be your sole focus. this is a really, really smart organization from top to bottom. And I think because they're smart, they're going to put the brakes on at some point. They're not going to allow themselves to be overextended. Between Sam Presti and Mark Dagnold, they're just not going to overextend their guys. I mean, the good news for them is that Shea doesn't even have to play fourth quarters half the time.

And it's still putting up incredible numbers. So I think it's on the table. And it wouldn't shock me if they got it. But I think that some combination of they're just not going to chase it. Some, you know, there will be some injuries along the way, some fatigue along the way. Everybody hits their dog days at some point where you're just kind of dragging a little bit. You know, they'll lose a couple of games and everybody will freak out and say, what the hell? What's wrong with the thunder?

But it's just hard to stay on that pace to win 73. So no, I don't think they will and I don't think they should. At the other end of the spectrum, nobody's on pace to chase the single season loss. record, also 73, held by the 1972, 73 Sixers who went nine and 73. The 2015-16 process-era-sixers looked like they were going to shatter this, and they still ended up winning 10 games. And that was the tanking team poster child for all time. It's really, as hard as it is to win 73, it's really hard to lose 73.

So I think I've already made part of the case against. But, Pina, is any of these, are any of these teams, the Pelicans currently on pace for 12 wins, Wizards on pace for 13, nets on pace for 16, pacer's on pace for 15 to 16 out. And then the, the dark horses to chase the loss record, Clippers and Kings reach on pace for 19. Like, that's your field of teams that one more bad injury or wrong move and they could be in danger. of it, does anybody challenge that record? I mean, a couple of those teams that you just named don't have their first round pick in this year's draft.

So if they did break the record, it would, that would be something. Catastrophic. Yeah. I don't think that any records will be broken. I think these teams have, no organization wants that record. I don't think that that is like given the flattening of the lottery odds. I don't think that the juice is worth the squeeze there to go down as the worst team ever and then get like the fourth pick in the draft.

That's just you don't want to do that. So I would say no. I also, the Brooklyn Nets are really an interesting case where they could go into a really aggressive tank mode, whether that be kind of trading off some of their veteran contributors or just, I don't know, just, you know, not playing Michael. Michael Porter Jr. has been excellent this year. Nick Clackson's been pretty good. Just Terrence Mann is around as a Swiss Army knife of sorts. if they traded those guys or bench them or whatever.

I still think like that, I don't know, like I still think Jordy Fernandez is too good of a coach. I don't think any team would, would touch this record, to be honest with you. I don't think so either in part because this is a big tanking year. This is a great draft year. And because so many teams, like there's a race to the bottom and they are jockeying for position, but you don't have to have the worst record. You just have to have one of the three worst to have the best odds. And even then, as you know, you're not guaranteed anything.

But the fact we have this many bad teams means that when those guys play each other, they're giving each other wins in some form and some sequence of events, right? So it's- That is true. You need to be like almost the lone bad team so everybody else can kick the shit out of you to get to 73 losses. I don't think it's going to happen. I do think there's going to be just some horrendous epic tanking competition going on in March and April. because despite the changed odds, despite the results, despite the Mavericks jumping from whatever 11th to first and everything, teams are still going to play the odds.

And we just listed a bunch of teams that are absolutely doing that this season. I would like to quickly reaffirm my preseason prediction that the Indiana Pacers will win the lottery, just getting it on the record on this podcast as well, because that's definitely going to happen. That would be incredible. All right. We'll do these real quick. You already wrote a piece on the ringer.com this week with some quarter season awards. We don't need to go through all of them. Let's just hit two.

Your coach of the first quarter season, the quarter pole coach of the quarter pole. Mine was Eric Spolstra, and this was pretty easy for me. Yeah. We covered a lot of the reason why. You know, a lot of people talk about the offense and how it was completely rearranged, and he adopted. He saw what Memphis was doing. year and adopted it, brought it Noah LaRoche as a consultant, and it's just worked like gangbusters.

They've just gone from not that fast to by far the fastest team, and it's enabled, you know, just about everyone on the roster to be the best version of themselves. Like, Jaime Haquez is incredible this year after a horrific sophomore slump. So just being able to create an environment that has all these players buying in after the way last season ended, I think is really, that takes leadership. And beyond X's and O's, I think that Eric Spolstra is just like a really great motivator. And people want to play hard for him. But yeah, in addition to the offense that everyone talks about, like, what are they, second or third in defensive rating right now? Very good on the defensive end.

and Bamadabio has a case for a defensive player of the year yet again. So I can't say enough about Spow, never won the award, which is kind of a crime. I think that this year, I hope he wins it. Fourth in defense, but like by a tick, 11.2 to Houston's 11.1. So yeah, they're right there in defensive rating as one of the elite defensive teams. Spoh is a great pick. There's always like six to seven guys for coach of the year. I think Spoh, I think, Dr. Oryakovic, G.B. Bickerstaff, again, a candidate. I think he finished

second to Kenny Atkinson last season. JJ Reddick deserves some love. Emmae O'Doka, Mitch Johnson in San Antonio. They're still just like, you know, chugging along without Wemby this whole time. But I went with Jordan Ott for all the reasons you elucidated earlier in the pod. This team was in some sort, some semblance of a tear down with only really Devin Booker to rely on seemingly. Jalen Green has barely played and he was supposed to be. I don't know what he was supposed to be, but he was theoretically the key piece of the return. It turns out it was Dylan Brooks in the return for Kevin Durant. They're 13th in offensive efficiency, 13th in defensive efficiency, just like just super solid.

I don't know that they're going to chart out. At the end of the season, I don't think they're going to be quite. quite in the thick of things, but they've already made us all take notice. And Jordanott, again, as a rookie head coach to come in, and it's effectively changed the culture, overused word, but, and just change the, change style, culture, attitude, everything seemingly overnight, incredible stuff. Your MVP through 20 games, this is like, this could be an epic race despite the fact that I think everybody that we haven't seen the first,

Tim Bontemps has not hit us up yet for his first drawpole that's coming any second now. But who's your, I do think it's going to be a great race. Who's your MVP through 20 games? My MVP was Nicole Okic. He leads the league in rebounds, assists. P.E.R. He's sixth in points per game.

He is second in true shooting behind AJ Green. Like, he's second in true shooting with like touching the ball more than any other player. I think he's just the best player in the world. He keeps getting better. The on-off splits are still amazing. His team would have home court advantage in the Western Conference if the season ended today.

And he's not had two starters for a few weeks now with Christian Brown and Aaron Gordon both being out. And I know they've dropped some games to some bad teams lately with those two out. But, I mean, he's just so dominant in his minutes. and yeah, he's the MVP for me. He almost certainly is. And if I had to vote right now, and again, I don't know when that poll question is coming via text

from our buddy bond temps. But I'll probably go Yokic, but I'll make the case for SGA just for the sake of it right now. The numbers are astounding and he's not even, again, he's not even playing a lot of fourth quarters. Their record is insane. and they didn't even have Jalen Williams for the first six weeks of the season. Isaiah Hartenstein's been out.

Chet Holmgren was in and out. Everybody that they plug in, the AJ Mitchells, whoever, thrives. And that all still starts with Shea Gildes Alexander. I think in the end this season, like, well, you know, obviously, look, there's a lot of games to be played and numbers will change and everything else. And these teams will go through it. But if they're chasing 70 in April, forget the 73, forget the record. But if they're in the high 60s to 70, and depending on what the gap is between the thunder and nuggets, that could be definitive again. And I think for a lot of us, myself included, it was at least one piece of the puzzle in determining MVP ballots last spring was that they had the thunder just lapped the field.

And they were whatever, like 17 wins or whatever it was between them and the nuggets. I'm just throwing out a number. Don't hold me to it. I don't remember what it was. It was a massive gap, a much more massive gap than we would normally see between two MVP candidates. And so if the Thunder keep up this rate and Shay keeps this up, his case will again be very, very strong come April. All right, producer Cliff. Hope your Thanksgiving was wonderful, my friend.

Hope you got a lot of great mailbag questions for Thanksgiving. That sounds like the worst Thanksgiving gift ever. People don't give gifts on Thanksgiving, so it's okay. But I hope our mailbag is as stuffed as everyone's Thanksgiving turkey. The mailbag. There's the single worst intro to the mailbag we've ever had in this podcast. The mailbag is as stuffed as Michael Peña's kids' Christmas bag gifts that are coming up here. There we go.

Let's get to the first one here. We talked about this earlier here with the Clippers, and this is from Brian Toperic. What up, Beck and Peña, of course. The Clippers can't pull out this early situation season tailspin. Should they blow it up, sorry, should they blow their core up, even though they have no control over their next four first round picks? Is it worth treating those as sunk costs to recoup something for Hardin and their other vets before potentially losing them for nothing?

That is a question from Brian Toperic. I hope I'm saying that right. Brian Toporik, maybe? And shout out to Brian, who does great work. A bunch of places. Bleach Report, Liberty Ballers, Forbes, lots of stuff and a great follow on blue sky as well.

Great question from Brian. Pina, what do you think? Yes, I do think that they should explore making significant changes to the roster. The case against is, hey, we'll ride this thing out. Who knows? We'll get into the play in. If Kauai is healthy, he's still amazing. If Hardin's healthy, he's amazing right now. And no one will want to see us.

And, you know, next year, we'll have all this cap space and we'll just kind of reconfigure the roster around Kauai and we'll avoid the embarrassment of giving the Oklahoma City Thunder a top five pick and the ire of 28 other teams, which would definitely happen. But, no, I just think you should, like, screw that. Don't fall victim to sunk-cost fallacy. You should absolutely try to get as many picks as you can. and try to set up your future for success by making moves now that may intentionally, you know, push you back instead of forward. So, like, the rumors that they're, like, interested in acquiring Damar de Rosen or pick your star slash pseudo star make absolutely no sense to me.

And I think that those should absolutely be couched. they should rather than that they should explore the Kauai Lundner trade market, see what they can get for him. That's what I would do. It's just absolutely stunning to look at Tankathon right now and see the clippers slotted at fifth with that big orange and white arrow pointing to OKC that if the season ended today, the thunder would have the fifth best odds to win the lottery. Or technically not the fifth best odds, but they'd be slotted fifth in the lottery. order. It's incredible. The Thunderwood would also have the ninth pick courtesy of Utah and the 14th pick courtesy of the Sixers. Oh my God. I almost want it to happen. I root for chaos. I know the rest of the league now is cursing my name for human saying that. It would just be insane. But you know

what? The Thunder earned us. They were smart. They outwitted y'all. Sorry. I think that I agree with you. Like you can't, the pick is gone. You can't get it back. And the thunder are going to be the beneficiaries, wherever it falls. And does it look even worse if it ends up top three, top one? Yeah, but you're screwed anyway. And you're all, you've already set yourself up as the team based on the Norman Powell trade that is shooting for 2027. That you, these next two years were just placeholders anyway.

Obviously, you want to stay competitive, but you weren't exactly all in for the moment anyway. So part of this is just that plan coming back to haunt you because you you could have kept Norm Powell. You could have tried adding players who were, you know, younger and not on this timeline of 2027 cap room, but you just, you chose not to. You chose to sacrifice the present for the future on some level. I also think that if you trade Kauai, if you traded Hardin, if you traded Zubotch, whoever may be, not saying all of them. You're probably not dealing all of them. You might actually end up better in the process, Pina. Like it's not necessarily a concession, especially when you're trading a guy, if it's the Kauai example, who you don't even know how many games you're going to have him around for anyway.

Depending on how one or more trades go for them and what you're getting back, the chemistry might get better. The balance of the offense might get better. You might pick up a better, you know, fifth starter along the way. Who knows what it is? It's not necessarily a concession or a decision to say, you know, we're not caring about. the pick, we just are trying to offload and see if we can get back pieces for the future, you might actually end up better in the process. So yeah, I think everything should be on the table for the clippers. I wouldn't rule out any moves at all.

There we go. Next question is from Andrew Shields. Has anyone else noticed that Achilles ruptures in the NBA seem to almost exclusively affect non-European players? If so, what can be gleaned from that? Is it part of the whole America, AAU never stops drills in lifting culture Andrew Shields I had not actually considered the nationality of the ruptured Achilles across the board until now

Pino what you think this is something that I have never considered I wish I had like a database in front of me with every torn Achilles in the last 20 years and where that player was born, but I don't. I can't think of anyone who, off the top of my head,

who ruptured their Achilles who is not born from the United States. But I think there may be something to this theory, for sure. I mean, I'm not too well-versed in the development. process in Europe. I know that they start very young. I know that it's not exactly like AAU where you're playing so many different games in a weekend and packing all these minutes

onto young underdeveloped bodies. But yeah, it could be, I suppose, or, you know, could be like freak stuff. I'm not a doctor. Howard, I'm not a doctor. So this is my, these are my, These are my thoughts on this, but I don't have any any way to confirm my opinion here.

Also not a doctor. Also not a trainer or have any medical degrees or even fake ones that I can cite. I think the fact that it's Lillard, Tatum, and Halliburton as the three most recent examples. And then we had DeJante Murray and we had, you know, going a little bit further back, Kevin Durant, to Marcus Cousins, Kobe Bryant, like they have, it seems like it's been all Americans, but like, you know, up until recently, you know, the league has been overwhelmingly American-born players. It's still about 70, 75%, maybe even 80% American-born players. So part of it's just a numbers game, probably. But listen, like I will, I'm going to cite Baxter

Holmes' story so many times that he should pay me royalties at this point. But Baxter Holmes at a piece, I think it was a two-part series, actually. about six years ago about the workload that American-born basketball players have in youth leagues, primarily AU. And that by the time they get to the NBA, they're already in jeopardy of having these soft tissue injuries and knee blowouts and Achilles blowouts and everything else. There was a really well-reported and researched story. It was as true now as it was then. and the league has been grappling with this. And, you know, I think it's still the best explanation for why in an era of load management

and teams being really careful, you know, much more conservative, having all these sports science staffs, analytics staffs, all the training, all the modern advances, we still have these kinds of injuries. And it's, it's, it's, once you've eliminated everything else, it kind of goes back to, I think, this obvious premise that players just are coming in with their bodies already vulnerable. But neither Michael Pina and I nor I are doctors and are uncouthified. Although I will say that the season should be shorter and that is actually what we should be talking about related to this discussion.

Agreed on that one too. And as we know that that is an impossible one for the NBA to ever tackle because neither the owners nor the players ever want to give up the money. Maybe someday they'll reckon with that, but I don't think it's coming anytime soon. Anything else left in our mailbag? I'm going to throw you a curveball in this one, however. I did not send you this one. So this is about a week ago from C.J. So Cito.

Now to my actual topic, rather than pondering about trade destinations for Janus or how shit the pelicans and kings or finding new ways to rage bait, Roger with Rust Talk, I have a fun exercise. Considering how well received last year's NBA finals were, given that they primarily featured two small market teams, what would be the absolute funniest finals matchup we can get in 2026? I'm talking wolves, raptors, levels of absurdity. Who do you guys pick?

How many games played? Who balls out, etc.? Thanks for being some real ones, and I hope you guys have a happy Thanksgiving, and obviously that was pre- Thanksgiving. Huh. So the question is the most hilarious finals matchup? Yep, yep.

I guess it needs to at least be plausible, Pina. Like, it's obviously not, you know, Wizards Pelicans, although that would be truly hilarious. What is the most plausible yet hilarious? hilarious finals matchup. Huh. Is it a good one? Is it Timberwolves Knicks for the Cat Randall battle?

Like is it? Knicks can't be involved in this. That's not hilarious enough. No. That's like, we're talking market size is factored into this answer now. Sure. Yeah, it was factored into his premise and his email too. I was just thinking like, you know, can we can we get the referendum on?

some deal. That one is still prominent. But you're right. Knicks are too big for this. What about Orlando and San Antonio? All right. hilarious because? I don't find any of these matchups hilarious. I mean, that satisfies the small market part of the question, I guess. Yeah, I mean, they're just like, I think it would be fun for basketball fans. I think that, you know, you'd have some young star power. You'd have, I would look smart because I thought that the Orlando Magic would go to the finals.

You get Victor Webbinjama on a stage like that would be terrific. It's like there's no, how many teams out the West can you even pick to actually go to the NBA finals besides the obvious ones? It's kind of difficult. but yeah Toronto or Orlando or Atlanta or I don't know I'm trying to think of like who else is realistic out of the Eastern Conference that would be funny Detroit Detroit I mean Detroit would just be fun to see

Cliff the question was restated All right so the question was Hang on let me bring it right back off yeah just just the actual I got a question part of it not okay I got you So the question was, I have a fun exercise. Considering how well last year's finals were, given that they were primarily featured two small market teams, what would be the absolute funniest finals matchup we can get in 2026?

I'm talking wolves versus Raptors levels of absurdity. Who do you guys pick? How many games played? Who balls out, etc. Yeah. So he did. Like absurdity and funny were like in there. So I mean, the Raptors are an absurd finals team,

given where we began. So like that's that's a, it almost has to be like Raptor's sons at this point. Just to continue the trend of the shit we didn't see coming and that we don't see actually enduring. But that's objectively funny. What about Portland? I think it might be a little too far out of the,

yeah. Portland got you chuckling, though. So I might be out into something here. You might be on to something. All right. There is nowhere else to go with this question or with this podcast at this stage. So thank you, Michael Pina, for joining us and filling in today. Shout out to Logan and Rajah.

Raja, hope you're feeling better soon. You'll see those guys back. Logan and Raja, I believe, on Friday. And I will be back with you all next week. Thanks for joining us. must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino, who are 18 and older and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming.

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