The Ringer NBA Show - Questions Heading Into 2024 | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Logan and Howard are back to grade the success thus far of the Suns' and Bucks' experiments with retooling, with new superstar talent being added to their respective rosters (02:00). Later, Logan serves Howard a bunch of bigger-picture questions for the 2024 half of the season, including topics such as the Kings' playoff readiness, Anthony Edwards's potential as face of the league, and more (34:40). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from Offguard. And I've got some exciting news. Offguard hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Gigi, is officially moving to our own podcast feed. We are now dropping two shows every week. Me and Pasha go way back and talk so much hoops already that we figured it was time to fire up the mics and let you in on these conversations. Every week, Pasha and myself will hit on the biggest stories happening around the league. Tap into the show twice a week on our new Offguard feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. It's popping. Real ones.

Logan Murdoch here, Howard Beck there, no raza today for the last MF and Mondays of the year. Sorry, Howard. But other than that, how are you doing, bud? What's going on? How's it back east? I'm good. Kind of stormy back east, like a massive storm kind of thing where they were like warning of like floods and winds and stuff being uprooted and like, I don't know, Dorothy's house flying around or something. But we're all good.

We're fine. I'm curious, though. like, all right, this is the first time since I joined the show as a regular on Mondays, where Raja is not here. Now, you and I in my past employment places, I would come on occasionally, would just be the two. This is the first time I've the two of us since I've been a regular. And so I'm curious, am I temporarily promoted to actual real one, capital R, capital O? or is it like interim real one? Like I don't know what's the proper title at this point?

Let's settle this debate that you started yourself on Twitter at no prompting for no reason whatsoever. I've got a lot of insecurities, Logan. Have you not realized this by now? I see that. You never were not a real one. The reason why you came on the show is because you are a real one. There is no interim. There is no any of that stuff.

You are a real one. There's no honorary. There's no none of that. You are a real one. You are part of this family. We literally said, welcome to the family in the group chat when you came aboard. I don't know what the confusion is, Howard. That was a direct quote for me and Raja. I don't know where we're going with this. All right. You know, sometimes the insecurities get the best of me. It's a thing. You know, but thank you. Good, good, good to be here. Good to be real. I like being real. Yeah. There's no AI version of Howard Beck. That's my knowledge. That would suck, by the way.

AI, AI, me would just be. No one needs more meat. Let's start there. You know, in the beginning of the AI revolution, and I promise we'll get to the thing, I thought that, like, this, they would say it was the Allen Iverson version of a person. I really thought that, like, the first time I heard AI, when they were like, AI version of this. I'm like, oh, AI coming back out with something.

That's wild. That's disrespectful to Andre Aguadala, by the way. You know, it's funny. When I was a kid, one of my first jerseys that a mama ever bought me was an Andro Iguado, six-ish jersey, the number four jersey. And it's wild because I got to cover that man. But anyways, let's finally get to the rundown. I was perusing after Football Sunday about some topics to go through. And you know, as you know, this is post-in-season tournament. So it's kind of a dead time before we get to Christmas.

But I saw two specific games, two specific wins by two specific teams, the Sons and the Bucks. And I saw a commonality between the two, which is how they built their teams over the summer. Now, I know there's nuance to both ways, and we're going to get into that nuance in the first segment. But both teams have the commonality that they went out to go get stars to figure out if they can get a championship formula, right? The Sun's got two stars at two different off-season in Bradley Bill and Kevin Durant, while the bucks went out and got traded for Damian Lillard over the summer. And there are two different reasons why both were because of a championship.

But if I look at the Milwaukee Bucks, it was because they saw that team that they had around Yannis had pretty much maxed out of its potential and wanted to raise their ceiling. And the suns kind of, but in a different way, wanted to make sure that they were just in the hunt. new ownership and wanted to do that. And I look at their schedule right, I look at their records right now. The sons at the moment are 14 and 12 while the bucks are 19 and 7. But when I look at both of these teams, I see, and it's not a revolutionary idea, but it is something for the modern era. It arms race to get talent around talent and not necessarily developing the talent within

to be able to sustain. or not sustain or try to build that thing. When you see how both of these two teams have built their rosters, what do you think it says about the modern team building in the modern NBA? It's really interesting because in the abstract, there are some common threads there, not least of which is, of course, that these two teams both slipped after meeting in the finals in 2021, right? Like they're, they're battling it out.

Yannis walks away with his championship. The sons figure, well, you know, Booker will keep evolving. Aitin will keep evolving. Chris Paul's got another couple of years left. And then things change really fast in this league, right? Like age creeps in. Things get stale. A key guy gets hurt.

Whatever it is. And so like you can never like plan on this moment. Like the 2021 finals, this is the start of something. Oh, the Bucks, this is going to be a three, four year run now where they're going to be, you know, in finals contention every year. And they've, you know, plausibly been a contender first round loss, notwithstanding. The Suns had a more difficult path forward after that moment because Chris Paul was already old by NBA standards at the moment they made the finals. And you knew the clock was ticking. What we didn't necessarily anticipate was how much just.

The younger part of it, like you just were talking about, Logan, like, you know, how much do you rely on your, your youth to evolve and just developing guys? Well, the son saw enough of DeAndre Eaton to finally figure, this guy's not, he's not going to ever be the number one overall transformative player that we thought we got a few years back. So it's interesting where they both ended up, right? They both make the swing for the fences moves. But they're really different after that. Everything else is different to me. like the bucks did everything they could with a Janus as as basically the only offensive engine a little Middleton here, a little Drew Holiday there, a little whatever. They went as far as they thought they could.

And so now I traded defense for offense. And in the son's case, it was like, this is just a, this is a brand new team. It's Devin Booker and a bunch of dudes who had nothing to do with 2021 when they were in the finals. It is a completely different team. And it was doubling down and tripling down, going getting Durant, getting Beal. And, you know, the sons are trying to basically reconstruct the idea of a super team, whereas the Bucks are just trying to formulate a different plan, a different scheme around Janus and a group that otherwise has, you know, got a lot of the same key guys, right? Portis, Lopez, Middleton.

So they're different in that respect. The sons are like, this is just a whole new thing. and they're trying to revive the idea of a super team. And I know some people pushed back the last time we talked about this a few weeks back. Well, like if it's if by your definition, Howard's super team is like three top 25ish guys, well, Beal's not in that. Well, yeah, but he's paid like that. And he was all NBA as recently as two years ago.

I was shocked when I went and looked it back up this morning. Bradley B. was all NBA in 2021. So they're trying the Sons to do the Super Team thing, but they're so top-heavy and they're so injury pro. I want to start with the Sons first because you make up a great point just about how, just even how we look at super teams, right? You put a hodgepodge of great players together and expect it to work. I mean, the most modern example of that is the heatles and the post-decision heat.

But I think when you see that team and when you see the Sons, it's interesting because you almost forget that you have to round out the team. And the heat did a good job ultimately of rounding out the team with guys like Shane Batier, Mike Miller, and a lot of, and Joel Anthony and a lot of guys over there. But when I watch the Sons at this point, they look like a team that is trying to find the rest of the. of the guys on the fly. And I think that it would have been one thing for them to trade for. And I know that Bradley Bill was the biggest name and the biggest fish. And that is just the luck of the draw whenever you find somebody in free agency. But when I look at the suns on a night-to-night basis, it's either it's feast or famine.

And sometimes both in the same night, right? Where they score really big. But they or they'll let a team back into the game. and it's just it's hard to find their groove at times. How much when we look at Super Teams, Howard, do we forget that one, this thing takes time? And another thing that when you're doing it on the fly and putting that much pressure on yourself,

you got to make sure that you have, you put guys in place that actually fit with each other and actually can compete in a Western conference. Because I look at that, and the most glaring issue that the Sons have is that they have no front line whatsoever. You have Nerkich. And then once he goes out, you have Eubanks.

And then once he files that, you have Kevin Durant guarding the likes of Yokic and Anthony Davis. So what is the path forward for the Sons? And what are they, in hindsight, how are you looking at this move to get Bill months later? If we're going to go from like the benefit of the doubt approach, benefit of the doubt. Bradley Beal's been mostly out, right? He's barely played. So if there is a version of this team in which the firepower of Durant, Beal, Booker is so overwhelming and that you've got at least one of them on the court for all 48 minutes, probably two out of the three for most of a game, and all three to start, all three to finish, you're counting on the idea, based on the construction alone, right? You look at their roster. The roster suggests one thing. No, we don't. have enough size. No, we don't have enough defense. But we've got three guys who at their relative peaks are going to just kick your ass up and down the court. And we'll just outscore people more or less. We'll get our stops when we need to. But we are going to be so overpowering offensively.

We're not going to worry about it. That's plausible. You can make that argument. I'll accept the argument. But I had doubts going in because the whole thing about, well, as soon as Bradley Beals healthy, Yeah, when is that going to be exactly? And you knew going in that you had three stars who all had injury histories and Beal primary among them. So even the benefit of the doubt approach presupposes that at some point all three of them are healthy for a long stretch. And I don't know if they're going to get there. When they do, or if they do, if they're all three out there, everybody else is going to fall into a little bit different of a place, right? Logan, like suddenly you're not counting on as much from, you know,

Kate Bates job or, you know, or even Eric Gordon, who's, you know, more of a veteran that I think you can rely on. Like you're not, you, the, the rotation, everybody falls into the right place. And so I think there's a part of this where I'm not ready to write them off, but I also think that what we've seen so far is, is indicative of all the risks that they took in doing this. They went top heavy. in payroll and in talent. And they did it with guys who were hurt so often that you knew going in, you're going to need some luck.

And they haven't had it yet. And they might not get it. And a lot of that has to do with their owner, right? And I get it because owners want to make a splash. Matt Isbio wants to make a splash. But how do you, I don't know, advisors or something like that? And I don't want to make it seem like it's terrible in Phoenix. Like it's definitely not.

You have three bona fide all-stars on your team. Three bona fide all-MBA guys on your team, right? Like, it's not the worst thing. There's teams around the league that would love a collection of talent of Bill Durant and Booker. But when you see an ownership group trying to make a splash, like, you've been around the league a long time. I need you to take off your journalist hat and put on your advisor hat. You are in the front office. How would you advise a new owner on how to get a ready-making?

championship team together with the Phoenix Suns assets when he took the team. Maybe, what's that late, what's that late, early 2000, uh, 2020. What are, what are you as, as an advisory role? Yeah. He took control right before the Durant trade, right? Yep. I mean, he was, the Durant trade was on the table the whole time and he was like, let's just do it.

Let's get it done. Yeah. Um, boy, there's a, there's a bunch of, there's a bunch of thoughts here. All right. Let's try this. Um, start with this. Start with this. NBA owners, by and large, don't know anything about how to run a basketball team. These people are like- Say it again. Say it again, Howard.

NBA owners, by and large, on day one at least, don't know Jack about running an NBA team. They're captains of industry, but it's other industries. They're captains of real estate, captains of banking and hedge funds and whatever, malls, venture capital, all kinds of other stuff that is not basketball. all. And so they all come in thinking they've got all the answers. They all think they're brilliant. Some of them think you could run four on five. I think I think he's disavowed that by now. But they come in. Yeah. And so to me, I always put it this way. If tomorrow I somehow happen to come into, and this number increases every year, I don't know, $5 billion. and could own an NBA team, bought it tomorrow. I've covered the league for 26-something years, right? Like, I think I know a few things.

I think I probably know more than a lot of NBA owners do on day one about how this league actually works. But I don't know shit about how to run an NBA team either. I'm not relying on my 26 years as a reporter. That's crazy. So you have to have the humility to say, I don't know anything. I'm going to surround myself with people who do. And so the first thing is like, you know, hire the best possible head of basketball ops.

You know, you go out and you try and poach a Sam Presti or a Masayu Jiri or an R.C. Buford or one of those guys. That's why I love what the Minnesota Timberwolves did for a quick tangent here. I get it. Glenn Taylor's still nominally in charge. But like Mark, Lori and Alex Rodriguez come in as new owners. What's the first thing they do in partnership with Glenn Taylor during this transition period? They went out and threw a boatload at Tim Connolly who was located. one of the best executives in the NBA running the Denver Nuggets. And look, if you were going to throw cold water on that, you'd say,

oh, that stupid Rudy Gober trade. That trade's looking a lot better now that it did six months ago. But they did it the way that I always say you should do it. Go out and find the smart people who actually know how this league works. But the other thing I'd say in the Ishpia case is like, take deep breaths, sir. I advise you to take deeper breaths. Like, you don't have to go out and make the blockbuster deal for Kevin Durant that mortgaged your entire future of your franchise on day one of your ownership or day two, whatever it was.

And then the Beale thing, you know, it's funny. Like, I think once you're all in on Durant and now the clock is ticking, you've already given away the future with all the picks and swaps and everything, you kind of like, yeah, you might as well with Beal. I wouldn't have done it. And look at it right now. Chris Paul's played like 20 more games or 18 more. games, whatever it is, than Bradley Beal. You traded Chris Paul because he was the old dude for the younger by eight years or something, Bradley Beal.

But Beal's the one with, I know Chris Paul's got injury history too, but Beals has been a pretty troublesome. Chris Paul, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, and whatever else you picked up off the minimum salary heap this summer, might have been all right. I don't know, or maybe there was a different deal. You still got 80 and you still have 80 on the Ross. at that point, right? Like, obviously, you don't, if you don't trade, if you don't trade them, you could still, you still don't, you still have Aiden and Chris Ball on the roster and you still have asset.

It's up a big comes of available. Yeah. And maybe there were other places to send Aiton for, for different parts. Maybe you could have gotten a better return than Yus of Nurkich, who by the way, also injury history. I don't know. I just, I, if it all felt very hasty, it all felt very new. owner-ish, right? Mark Cuban came in and, you know, 20 years ago and was like, people forget this now. I'm sure Cubans reflected on it. At a time when the luxury tax had just been created, right? And it

was just a dollar-for-dollar tax. It was very, like, lightly punitive back then. But no, teams didn't want to pay the luxury tax, even on a dollar-for-dollar basis 20 years ago when they first started the tax. Cuban comes in around that same time. And he's like, oh, you don't want Nick Van Van Exel and his big contract? I'll take him. Oh, Rayf LaFrance, I'll take him. Antoine Walker, Antoine Jameson, everybody else named Antoine with a max deal. I'll take them all.

Cuban was like, and there were three teams, the Knicks, the Mavericks, and the Trailblazers who basically were like, F it, luxury tax? Don't care. We will take all the contracts that y'all don't want because we will then be able to stack up a lot of presumably high talent players. And so Cuban did that. He hired like 12 assistant coaches at a time that most teams still only had like two or three.

So it was just throwing money at everything. And, like, owners come in guns blazing a lot of times. And, like, Ishby has a different version of that. But a slower approach in this case, more conservative approach, probably would have been the better idea. Because if this doesn't work, and it looks pretty, I'll say bleak at the moment, but it doesn't look great. You didn't make these trades to be 14 and 12.

December. No. No. And you, and the fact is, and you knew from the moment they made the first deal for Durant, if it doesn't work, it's hell to pay for years, right? Like recouping all that lost draft capital is really tough. And like, I mean, I don't want to get crazy here and it's been too far forward, but like, you know, this crashes and burns and like, you know, is Devin Booker now asking out, right? Like, there's a worst case scenario here where you don't win titles, you don't even make the finals. Everybody's turn of the time. Everybody's unhappy. Guy, you know, Durant retires,

you know, Beal, what, I mean, Beal's contract is going to just wreck them for the next couple of years. Like, I don't know, man. Like, again, it's, it's the holiday season. I don't want to get too bleak and dour here, Logan, but like. Howard Beck, the Grinch.

The worst case scenario. The worst case that stole all your NBA fandom dreams. I'm just saying there's, there's, the worst case scenarios for Phoenix are really bad because of how much they risk. Now, let's go to the more, let's go to the Milwaukee because we, you know, this is also, we started with when you look at their approach, right? And honestly, I understand their approach. You had, they felt like they maxed out even with the, um, even with the worst case scenario,

Drew Holiday, uh, being traded with back it back to within your conference, um, into a contender that will probably, you will face in the, um, postseason. I mean, the Bucks are still one of the classes of the Eastern Conference and could still go into the NBA finals, still could win a championship. What have you seen contrasting with Phoenix's approach? What have you seen from Milwaukee's approach that has bared more fruit and might make them more successful in the long run with this approach of bringing a star into the fold? I'll answer that one in a second but I just a thought occurs to me because like the biggest one of the biggest issues

the bucks have aside from you know it's been a kind of fits and starts with this version with Dame and Janice trying to figure out their partnership and all that like the biggest negative so far about the trade is not just losing Drew Holliday's defense but the fact that that defense is now in Boston with your biggest rival right

we've seen all these like creative ways of putting limits on picks and whatever. And we're going to trade you this pick, but it's only if it falls between seven and ten in an odd year or whatever. Could you now start putting qualifiers on players like, hey, Portland, we want Dame. Oh, you want Drew. Okay, we'll trade you, Drew.

He cannot be traded back to the Eastern Conference if you remove him. Like, could you, I don't think that's legal. I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm just spitballing. Like, the worst consequence of that trade is not so much having trade a defense for offense and trying to figure out a new formula here with Dame and Janus. It's the fact that true holidays, like, kick it ass for your biggest rival in the... Who is now the best team in the league?

Could, like, you got to wonder, like, if you could do it over, you'd still do it, right? Because you traded for Dame and then Yana signed an extension. So, like, the first victory of the Dame trade, like with the Drew trade, a few years back, in both cases, it got Yannis to sign an extension. That's a win. Like on its face alone, that's a win. Cool. But yeah, when it comes to the, on the court, awkward.

Would you still do the trade if you knew that, like, you wouldn't have traded Drew to the Celtics directly to get. Absolutely not. Absolutely. Like if it were a three team deal, if the Celtics had come to them and said, hey, Portland, Milwaukee, we want to do a three team deal. We get Drew. If you're the bucks, you'd say like, no, we need a 13. The Celtics came in and did some dirty math. and was like, yo, man, that Drew Holliday.

We can help you out get back all your dreams come through. Just give us a dream holiday. What's up? Right. You'd slam the door. Yeah. So there's that. So their approach, there's no, I can't find any fault here.

I don't, there's no, like the thought process, tell me if you disagree. The thought process I totally get. Like the Drew Holiday, Chris Middleton. Brooke Lopez supporting cast. Obviously some other guys in there too. But that's your core group around Janus. That's the group that helped them win a title, Bobby Portis too. It felt like that had already run its course, right?

Like age was creeping in with, you know, and Middleton, especially with injuries. But Middleton, Drew Holiday, Brooke Lopez. There was a legit question about like, how much longer can you go with those as your three guys around Janus? And on top of that, your offense just isn't all that dynamic. and too much rests on Janus, and Janus has some limits to his game,

as big of a wrecking ball of an offensive player as he is. And I mean that in the most positive way possible. Like, there were limits. You kind of need a Dame Lillard shot creator, shot maker from everywhere on the court in clutch time kind of guy. And he was available. He's an all-timer. He's a top 75 all-time player, and he's still.

I'm not mad at the deal, man. But you wanted that dynamic part of your offense. You wanted to raise that ceiling. You wanted another dude aside. And not to say Drew Holiday was and as an all-star, but you wanted more than that. You wanted an all-MBA guy to pair alongside your once-in-a-generation talent. I'm not mad at that. No.

So it's a weird comparison. But like when the heat first got LeBron and Bosch to come play with Wade, I mean, I'm sure people will remember. They went out the gate, hovered around 500 for the first couple months, and there was the, you know, LeBron bumping spolstra and all that, you know, like weird-ass controversies. It was real messy. It was, yeah. And it's because there was, those were two guys who, no matter how close they were off the court, and they were, they're both used to having the ball of their hands a lot, control on the offense, high usage guys. It took time to figure out how best to play off of each other. Janus and Dame is a much different version of that.

But Janice has been the center of the universe of Milwaukee for several years running and won a championship that way. He didn't have to defer to anybody or figure out how to play off of anybody. And Dame has been the center of the universe in Portland for even longer. Like, you know, it was always going to take some time. Eric Name at the Athletic had a really nice story recently about just them trying to figure out the pick and roll partnership because we all thought going out, oh, the moment they got him, this is going to be the most devastating pick and roll we've ever seen. And it just, it takes some time. And, you know, I don't, I don't know that Janus has ever been like a major screen setter.

Has a bit of, like, the ball is more often in his hands and someone else is screening for him probably than him being the screener. So it's like, that's an adjustment. And despite everything, they're in pretty good shape as we sit here in late December, unlike the other team we were talking about. Like, the bucks are fine. Are they good enough? And will the defense be good enough to get out of the east? You know, that's still the open question. Yeah.

And I think people don't realize, like, even when you say that the notion that fans say, oh, man, the picker roll is going to be great. It's going to be most devastating. Like, it's obviously still can be that, right? And I don't think that, I think when you see the transaction on the transaction wire, I think a lot of people see what's going to happen in April. right? They see this, they look way toward the future. And I don't think that there's enough respect put toward the process of trying to build chemistry, right? Or trying to build that up.

Like, Damon Yannis were two different conferences. They didn't even see each other that much, right? And now you're putting them into the same team together. It's not just on the court. I mean, me and Roger talk about this all the time, just finding chemistry within the locker room and all these different things and trying to find a symmetry is that is it is it takes months you know if not like if you go look at the thing that's going that that I would give the Celtics the edge on in a matchup between the Bucks and the Celtics is the Celtics just have they've have a years and years worth of chemistry together on top of being great already right and that's what the Bucks are

building we don't how we don't give enough respect to it takes time to figure this out. They're only in, what is it? Month like three or four of, like, actually playing together. We don't give enough respect to the time it takes to, for two colossally great players to come together as a one. Like, it takes time. LeBron and Wade took time.

You know, KD. and Steph took time. You know, I think we need to get more respect, give respect to that. but also like you know the Katie and Curry one was like just an outlier anyway like it's so rarely rarely happens and the Warriors already knew

how to win a championship and already had so Durant could come in on day one and they're all going to say like just do what you do because you're one of the greatest offensive players in the history of the game but also here's how we do things here

and proof of concepts already there. Durant wanted to go Durant went there as a free agent too. So it's not the trade situation where Dame didn't pick the bucks, right? Dame was trying to pick and he was picking Miami. So every one of these is a little different, but

you're right, Logan, like you're right. It's really about it does take time and it's taken time with most of these kind of things. Like the Celtics with Pierce Garnett and Ray Allen were one of the rare cases where like day one, it just clicked. Like those guys went out, I don't know, 23 and 5 or some crazy start of the season. They were just crushing people.

And so sometimes it just clicks, but it's also, they did not have overlapping skill sets. Like that was one of the most perfectly, this is the problem with the whole super team era. The Celtics found the perfect complimentary pieces with Ray Allen being one of the greatest shooters of all time. And granted, he'd had a ball in his hands a lot more in his earlier days of Milwaukee and Seattle. but Ray Allen could just go out there and be their best shooter of all time, playing off of Paul Pierce, who was more of a ball-dominant kind of do-everything player, and then Kevin Gardett's defensive linchpin, who can make a shot now and then.

Like, they were complimentary stars. The idea of a super team gets distorted when we think, oh, just grab three max dudes who have made a bunch of all NBA teams and throw them together and we'll be fine. There have been so many bad versions of it since the Celtics won at all in 2008. like everybody keeps attempting again like that's more or less what the sons are trying to do they're trying to revive that that model we haven't had a super team actually win it all since the Warriors in 2018 the last the last year that Durant was healthy with them it's more like ensembles now you got to have one like absolute stud you got to have a Janus or a Steph or a Yokic or a LeBron or going back one more going back to Kauai but like all those teams are more or less ensembles like they're not super teams are you saying that it's hard to win a championship in the NBA Howard that is also true that is also definitely true

um but like i still like the the bucks the bucks have a shot here right like anything any any any the nitpicking we could all do the bucks have a shot and we'll see where things are in the spring. But again, I can't find fault with their thought process at all. And that's the other thing, too. We have to separate process from result in a lot of these things because not everything's going to work. Because as you just said, winning championship is hard. And there's all these variables and there's all these unknowns. And sometimes shit just happens. But I have no, I cannot find any fault with the process for what the Bucks did. And again, the win on day one was, Yana signed an extension. Doesn't guarantee he'll be there forever. because as we know, guys sign extensions all the time in this league and still ask out eventually. Not saying he will, not saying he won't. But getting him to sign it, that the show of faith that he has in the franchise with that signature, just as they did with Drew Holiday when they got him, like, that means a lot. And they've given themselves a chance.

And, you know, Janus and Dame both want to win. Yonis badly wants another one. You can see that. Dame's never made it to the finals or won a championship. I have every belief in the world that those guys are going to do everything possible. Again, it doesn't mean it'll work. But I'm not worried about the bucks. Say a quick break, and I have questions for Howard.

He has no idea what his answer to them is. So this should be very, very fun. Cash in on bawling out this NBA season with Fandul, America's number one sports book. Right now, new customers can get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 money line bet. That's $150 if your team wins. All right, let's look at the slate. You all know me. Taking the over on Wizards Kings.

It's going to be a lot of points scored. Minimal defense. I'm also looking at Nick Slakers. Hmm. I don't know. Yep, taking the over. Let's also look at Jazz Nets. Hmm.

I really, really want to take the over in the Delta Cender. But I think I'm going to take the under. Switching it up. Then for the Mavericks Nuggets, I'm going to look at that. Let's look at the line. Got it. Taking the over.

And you can do all of that on the Fanduals Sportsbook app. The app is easy to use. And there's a wide range of ways to bet, including quick bets, live same game parlays, the parlay hub, and more. So visit Fandul.com slash ringer MBA and turn dimes into dollars this season. Fandual, official sportsbook partner, the NBA. First online real money wager only. $5.00. pregame money line wager required.

First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued is non-witrable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook. com. All right, Howard. We're about to go into the new year. And I have some questions.

Maybe we make some predictions for 2024. You ready to make some predictions and get some questions out? How are you feeling about that? Are you nervous? Because you kind of were nervous pre-pod. when I said, yo, I got a load of questions for you. And I don't know. Didn't we just open with the whole segment about my insecurities as a person,

as a podcast or as everything? So, yeah, you've completely unsettled me. And so, you know, fire away. And I will see what I can come up with. Let's do it. We have thousands and thousands of fans and legions of ringer folks that will call you out, as you know, if they don't agree with our takes. Let's go with the first one.

Let's go back to your, let's go back to our old stomping grounds. Let's go to Sacramento. Are the kings ready to take the next step at the Western Conference in 2024? In 2024. I'm going to say yes. I think they are. And I think a lot of it has to do with two things. The Fox, Deerrin Fox has, you.

He won the first ever clutch player of the year award. Dier and Fox has not fallen off at all. There's no hangover here of his breakthrough season. And he's been on the rise for a while now. The Fox bonus thing is legit. It's great. The wild card is Keegan Murray and how quickly he evolves as a potential defensive stopper on the perimeter, as another offensive generator, shot creator.

like can they can can can can king and murray fast track himself to being like the third guy and you know Mike brown has put a lot of emphasis on defense because you knew the offense is already elite there if they could just even be average defensively there's a lot of teams in this boat right we're going to be elite offensively we just got to figure out a way to be even average defensively and we'll give ourselves a shot there's a lot of that going on right now to leave um but yeah I think the kings are ready I think the kings can't take that next step the the the Difficulty is this. The West is deep this season. And there are a lot of teams that, like, the clippers have kind of found their footing, right? Like, you know, too soon to, like, just assume anything with them. But it seems like they found their footing with Hardin now. Kauai and Paul George have to stay healthy. But, like, the clippers are probably going to be, have to be reckoned with in the spring. The nuggets aren't going anywhere. The suns may get healthy and pull it together. The Lakers are going to have to.

have to be reckoned with. The in-season tournament champion Lakers. They're putting their banner up tonight. Show some respect. Okay. They're putting their banner up tonight. I'm with you. Boy, the energy in the arena is just going to be through the roof.

Yeah, exactly. There's no one, no one's going to be there for the in-season tournament banner hanging. No, maybe. No. No. Okay. Dude, if they play, we are the champions.

or anything even remotely like that. I just, I, I, it's just over. It's great to see the line. And I promise it's,

I know there are a lot of Kings fans that are really mad at us right now. Like, we're talking about the Kings and the Lakers come up. I apologize. We'll get back to your team. It's just funny to see the Lakers tow that line between like, yeah,

we're excited about this versus like, we don't want to be too far clipper. We don't want to be like that. We don't want to do too much. So that's funny. But go ahead. head, going with the Kings. I'm with you on the Kings. I'm bought in on the King's stock. The thing that they need to figure out is how they're going to build a championship level

defense, right? And that has been, or consistent championship level defense. And that has been a been kind of hard over the last year as they've ascended. And a lot of it has to do with just personnel, right? They're a very fast team. They're a team that is, prioritizes getting up and down. And that doesn't give itself to great defense. But Keegan Murray, really, really good defender, right? Mike Brown, really good defensive coach. And I think they will figure that out.

My question also is, are they going, is this going to be, this is a big moment for Mike Brown as a coach? Now, for most of his career, even as a head coach, He has, and I'm going back to Cleveland, his first and in Cleveland. He has had the reputation of being a really, really good coach and his teams having a ceiling. And he is doubt whether that's fair or unfair, that is the narrative on Mike Brown. And I think that he has gotten a lot of experience during his time in Golden State. And I'm curious to see how that experience is put into practice in Sacramento.

I think he is well on his way to pushing out those notions, but he needs to, he has a lot to prove as a coach on the postseason level and getting the Kings from the darlings of the NBA of first round exit darlings to what they want to be, which is a championship contender. We'll see if that happens. But I am all in on the Kings. And for those reasons that I mentioned, they are exciting. They're not afraid of the moment, but they do need to get their defense right. right and Mike Brown needs to has a lot to prove. And a quick aside, just because I'm pulling up stats while we're talking, what I was saying like they should, you know,

you got to just be average at least defensively if you're elite offensively. They have actually achieved averagedom in defense. They're like 14th in defensive rating right now. So they are hovering in that range. The problem right now is their offense, which was number one last season, is also hovering in average range at around 14th and offensive rating. But, you know, look, Fox missed all those games early on. they're still kind of figuring some things out.

But I have no doubt in my mind that Kings are still going to be a top, or going to be again a top 10-ish or more or better offensive team by the time all of a sudden done this season. Let's go. We're still in the Western Conference. I want to go to Minnesota. You referenced them earlier. And I like them just like how you like them.

In 2024, is Anthony Edwards going to follow through on the promise that we have seen from him early this season as a franchise star. And is he going to be one of the faces of the league by the end of the next year? You know, I know after the summer, after the team USA experience, people kind of felt like that was the next logical thing. Like, this was going to be his season. He's on his way. And he's a really exciting player. He's a fun player.

he's really stepped up on the defensive side in a way that I don't think his first couple of years in league, I don't think people thought Anthony Edwards was going to be much of a defensive presence. He was viewed as kind of, you know, hey, look, kind of standard issue, ball dominant shooting guard, you know, the old school model of he's going to have high usage rates, score a lot, you know, efficiency may or may not be there. I think people had some doubts about him, but he's been very, very, very efficient. He's been an, you know, offensively, just, you know, not only an explosive player, but I think has become a very smart player about the way he leverages his talent and about

the way he uses his teammates. He's on pace for a career high and assist this season. He's really rounding into form. When we start talking about like faces of the league and like how we're going to regard a guy, it always comes down to what they do in the postseason. and he just doesn't have much of a playoff record to cite yet. He's been there briefly a couple times. But that's the thing, and that's the thing for that franchise period, right? The Timberwolves haven't been a force in the postseason for a very long time. Are they as good as their record suggests right now?

Are they really one of the best teams in the West, one of the best teams in the league? Can they sustain it? I'm leading toward yes right now. Like I hard lean toward yes. And if that's the case, Anthony Edwards is going to get that bigger stage. If they can go a couple rounds in the playoffs and be playing in May, then yeah, he's going to be right up there among the big, you know, the bigger names in the league. But, you know, that's a crowded list. I'm with you on this one.

I want to see what he does in the playoffs. And let's not act like Anthony Edwards hasn't had success in the playoffs. I mean, this team might not have done it. but he has shown really good, shown really good promise in the postseason during his time there. Now, it was a short time, but every time I've seen the Timberwolves in the postseason when Anthony Edwards is playing,

I'm like, oh, get him the ball more. He's the guy. Get him the ball. And I think that he'll have the support of the front office. It's just interesting now because now it's like commercially we're being fed Anthony Edwards all the time. He has a new shoe coming out. He has a boatload of interviews.

He is getting pushed into that. Into the zeitgeist as the next marketable star. And let's see if that translates. Let's go to the Eastern Conference really quickly. The Celtics, they're right in the mix. Is this the year? Is this going to be the year they finally break through in 2024? Does that mean championship?

I mean, it has to be, right? Like there's no definition. They've accomplished everything else but a title. Yeah. Ah, you're asking me for a championship prediction in December. I think my preseason prediction, this is the great thing, right? If we ask each other in written form and on podcasts enough times over the course of a season, eventually we might give the right answer.

The bucks were my preseason pick. I think I went books over Lakers. Yeah. Did you go Bucke over? I think I might have won. I might have went bucks over suns. That was tough. I don't know.

That was tough. I went bucks over Lakers. So there's the part of me that thinks like, we should just be consistent, right? And the bucks have not shown anything that should make me doubt that necessarily. I think this, I mean, look, of the two of them, yeah, the Celtics have looked better. And the Celtics have a lot going for them, right? They've got more youth.

They've got more, they've got the best. starting five in the league, maybe even the best six, first six in the league. Like if I had, if I'm, if I'm doing it over again now, I'm probably leaning Celtics over bucks. But the bucks are very much in this thing. The Sixers are, I think, in this, in this thing in a way that we did not. I put Lakers bucks. Lakers.

That's, that's not bad. I'm okay. And you went Lakers? And you had Bucs over Lakers? I had Bucs over Lakers. All right. All right. All right.

So we both had the same. but I'm just I need to see the I need to see the bucks get through this season healthy but you're asking about the Celtics the Celtics have been awesome it's really hard to punch any holes in the case for the Celtics winning a championship right now

so if we're just wiping the slate clean and pretending we never made preseason predictions that I feel somewhat beholden to my December 18th prediction you're asking me now are the Celtics going to finally break through Yeah, yeah, I think they're going to. I think so too.

And I'm saying this on the eve. I'm about to see them a person for the first time this season tomorrow. They come to Chase Center. So excited about that. This is, I feel how I feel about the Celtics like every year since 2020, right? Like they're so deep. Jalen Brown is so good. Jason Tatumor, they're so good, right?

They're so deep. They have the defensive prowess. But I'm scared because, like, is there, I think last year's playoff performance just really spooked me in picking the Celtics. Now, I do want to pick the Celtics. I want that. But they got to prove to me in the rest of the league that they can keep their chest stuck out and win in May in June, right? Because the last two seasons, they have been juggernauts. Let's say the last season and a half, right?

because the second half of the 22 season with MAUDoka. For the last season and a half, they have shown that they could be amazing in the regular season. But when it gets, when the going gets tough, they fold. Like the last two seasons in the end, that is what has happened.

When they have gotten punched in the face, they have folded. What I want to see from the Celtics is them get punched in the face, eat that shit. and then go back and kick some ass. And we're not going to know that it's only December. We're not going to know that's going to happen until May.

But when you see them on a night-to-night basis, Howard, they were so good. I'm going to pick, I'm going to say I have confidence that they will do it, but I'm not ready to change my prediction. Is that fair? That's a nice way I bet you should have did. That's probably what you should have did. Isn't that what I did? I think it's what I did.

Kind of, sort of. Maybe. Maybe. But you said as a December 18th, your. picking them. You kind of changed it. Nah, I'm not going on with that. Can't wait for us to do this again at the All-Star break and I'm changing my pick to the Sixers. Yes. Let's go back again to our wheelhouse.

It's like the Bay Area. Should and will the Warriors blow it up in 2024? Who! Which day in 2024? Trade deadline, June, July, anywhere? I, um, okay. I think you're pushing at. back to me to go first. I'll go, I can go first if you want me to go first. I don't go for it.

Go for it. I have thoughts, but go. I think it, I think they eventually will blow it up. I think that's what the tea leaves are in some form or fashion. Now, that me, I think blowing it up means Chris Paul won't be on the team next year. And this is just, this is, this is just be observing and making a prediction. This is not me like, I'm not reporting anything. You have to do that on the ringer platforms, Howard because, you know, aggregations are a motherfucker. But I think in my observation is that if I had to guess, I don't think that they double down and I don't think that they, I don't, even with the latest Clay Thompson barrage and, you know, the semi last week good vibes of, of, of Andrew Wiggins, I think that

they blow it up and they keep Cury and they keep Draymond, Draymond because they have to. They've already doubled down on him. I think that they blow it up. Chris Paul's on on the team next year. Clay Thompson's out on the team next year. And Wiggins isn't on the team next year. I don't think it's at the trade deadline. I think that's too soon.

I think that they need to, the thing with the Warriors is they're not going to trade for, and even if I wanted him to get Zach Levine, and I mean, I guess they might be in the Zach Levine food stakes. I don't know that remains to be seen. But they want, if they're going to trade for somebody, it's going to put them right back in the mix. So they're trading for like, they want to bead the Janus of the world, right?

They want a big splash to put alongside Curry and not somebody that's going to be maybe a band-aid to the situation, right? So that requires patience and also a little bit of luck. And I don't think that that's going to happen in the trade deadline. I think they're going to have to wait until the offseason to make that big move and see where it goes from there. But it's not fun. They're blowing leads. It's all bad. I think that they should blow it up,

and I think they will end up blowing this up, Howard. I agree they're not doing anything before the trade deadline. And I think, you know, a lot of this is, it's, and this could be fools gold, right? We can dilute ourselves. And I've got a column running tomorrow on the ringer that's kind of touching on some of this stuff with the warriors. But we can delude ourselves with the memory of, oh, it's only been a year and a half since they won that championship, right?

Like, oh, you know, what's so much different about, you know, them now versus a year and a half? Go, well, you know, the old guys are a year and a half older. That's part of it. They haven't had enough. The young guys haven't popped enough, although they're starting to see some good things from a bunch of their guys. And yeah,

there's a couple more Draymond controversies in the meantime. Clay's on an expiring deal. Steve Kerr is on an expiring deal, lest we forget. We didn't even talk about Steve. And I don't know about, like, I don't know, man. I don't know if Steve's coming back then. I don't know.

There's some people that there's some people in this, in our building, the ringer that thing is coming back, but I don't know. I do not know. He has not signed an extension. He has not committed himself and he has not been like overjoyed with saying, publicly at least, that he's coming back.

I think it's actually really interesting how little has been said or written about in the Bay Area about Steve's status, right? A lot of stuff about his clay signing an extension. Where are they on those talks? Blah, blah, blah. There's been very little about Steve Kerr. I don't want to say

anything there that's going to get aggregated. But but I'm with you that the like the reckoning is coming they're not going to do it in season especially because this organization and I think rightly so defers to this core Steph Clay Draymond Steve Kerr they defer to what they've accomplished what they the the the belief that there's still something left there and I would do the same like I if I if I I'm going to have to concede the point at some point that the run is actually over. I'm not conceding that point until after the season. I'm giving them every possible chance. If there's a trade, I can make midseason, whether that's moving off Chris Paul, maybe it's moving off of Wiggins. I know he was central to that last championship. If there's something I can do significant at midseason that keeps in place the core, and by the way,

controversies are no, indefinite suspensions are no, I'm not trying to move Draymond Green. I don't know what his value would be around the league right now anyway, given the cloud over him, but I'm not, he's, he's Steph's most important teammate. Like the, the magic of their offense, to say nothing of their defense has so much to do with, with Draymond. I'm not, I'm not moving him. So I'm with you. The two guys that I'm fairly certain are back opening out in 2024 are Steph and Draymond. I'm not sure about anybody else, including their coach. And then like, and that's another thing. If Steve Kurt, and again, I don't work.

This is the conversation amongst homies. If Steve Kerr isn't back, I don't know if the magic is still there. I would have to, I would have to see what the coach is after that, you know? Like just in so many ways, they're just such a unique team in the relationships that they have. We'll see what happens. I don't want to get too much into it because, again, I'll just call you after this episode and we can talk about it after that. Let's get to the business of the NBA. I got a few more for you.

Will the NBA get what they want with the next TV deal? Ooh. All right. So you and I are not sports business reporters. We're not the sports business journal. We're not Bloomberg. This is the town. Shout out to Matthew Bellany.

We are not Sportico. I am no Scott Sashnik. So this is more like going off of just. a feel for things and conversations and just, you know, a little bit of scuttle, but a little bit of vibes, I guess. No, I don't think they're getting. I don't think they're getting the tripling of the deal that was once discussed or speculated about. The state of, it's not just, it's not really about the state of the NBA. It's not even really any fault of theirs. It's the state of broadcast media and streaming and everything. Everything's just kind of a mess. So, no, like, the NBA is still

going to gain, right? It was 20, I think the figure was 24 billion over 10 years when they signed the last deal. 24. And people were, yeah, so people were talking about that tripling. I mean, shit, man, if it's still doubles, I think, you know, they'll be just fine, right? Like, the leagues operating or their revenues have surpassed 10 billion a year in basketball-related income. Like, that's only going to still be going up. But, Will the growth be as rapid based on broadcast rights at the national level? That seems doubtful. It's interesting because, again, it's no fault of the NBAs.

They just have terrible timing with this, right? Like, it's just, this happened to have their TV deal come up as we are figuring out what streaming and linear television looks like at this point. we'll see what happens because on one on one hand like Turner broadcasting you're not watching anything on Turner I mean maybe you are I know you might be like a law and order head I don't know but you're on these these these channels and these people like are needing the NBA specifically a Turner because no one goes to their channel otherwise unless you're watching law and order reruns but on the other other hand, right? I think I heard Zazloff say that, you know, they don't want to always be in the business of being renters. They want to be buyers. So we'll see what happens on that end. But all of that confusion goes to say of like, we don't, the sports, the media landscape doesn't know what it wants to be. So it's going to be hard to find a deal on a slight of scale that'll be advantageous for both sides. It's just, it's, this is just the toughest possible time for

this to happen, in my opinion. Yeah, the timing is tough. And the economy is not in a state that's conducive to them tripling their revenues. But you know what? There are all these other parties coming in. There is competition for the broadcast rights and streaming rights. So whether it's Amazon, whether it's Apple, whether it's NBC, whether it's Fox, whether it's Netflix, whoever's coming into play, that's all to the NBA's advantage. It's just a matter of whether anybody thinks that the outlay should be what the NBA expected. But I think that's going to be fascinating.

Last one. Will the Nuggets continue to be on their way to a dynasty? Now, it's funny because the Nuggets are great. They're like an Asperzian vibe right now, right? where they're just low-key, they're letting everybody, you know, do what they got to do. And they're just staying the course right now, right? But in the beginning of this season, they did have their chest out. Go read Kevin O'Connor to go figure out what I'm talking about.

But I'm kind of on the fence here. I'm going to vote no. I don't think that there are, I know Yolch is great. I know they're doing great. but I don't see the run yet. Are you of the mind where you see them going on this? And mind you, this was them talking about how they are going to reel off.

This is one of the first times that I ever saw her to front office person, just say like outright. It's usually the players that say like, hey, we're going to whirl off three or four or five or six. But the front office is sticking out their chest. Are you of the mind that, hey, yeah.

Four or five, three or four. Let's do it. We have the same problem now with talking about dynasties that we have with the MVP, right? Like, we'll be three days into the season. It will be like, hey, you know, Yokic is clips in the field and the MVP. We're three days into the season. Can we wait until like December, January, February? I'd be like, Tim Bontemp just hit me the other day for his first MVP poll.

I'm sure that's coming in the next couple of days. Cool. It's fine that we do that. I like it. It's enjoyable. It gives us all something to talk about in late December. It's fine. How are we talking about dynasties when a team has won one?

Like, how is the D word even invoked when a team has won one? I get it. They're relatively young. The key guys are all under contract. Yokic is incredible. Is it possible? Sure. But good Lord, folks.

A dynasty to me, Logan, everybody's probably got, probably got their own definition. Dynasty to me is at least three championships in, say, like, a 10-year span, right? And maybe even other couple finals runs. I mean, they're going to own the decade, basically. But it's, right, it's not two. Like the Detroit Pistons, all due respect to the bad boys, the Detroit Pistons, win a couple titles. Not a dynasty. Hey, Detroit get a little sensitive when you bring up the, when you bring up the bad boy pistons, okay, and anything. I'm sorry. Not a dynasty. Great team. Not a dynasty. You need to the third championship. Rockets won back to back. Rockets won back. That was a Logan laughing,

not me, folks. Rockets won back to back, not a dynasty. All right, you won two in a row. That's nice. That's cute. You got to win at least three. So the spurs of the 2000s qualify. The Shack of Kobe Lakers qualify. The Bulls, obviously, the Showtime Lakers, the 80s Celtics who won three. So you got to get to three. Could we wait until a team has won two before we say their potential dynasty because two is not a dynasty. Two puts you on the precipice of now being able to be one if you can get the third. But it's hard just to even get the one. It's really hard to get the two. Can they be the best team in the league first? Can they do that this season before? Can when they do that like in the regular season? Can they do that first please? Can they not be a middle of the,

can they not just be 17 and 10 and not even being talked about first? Can we can we get to that? Can they go on a run? Can they have like a defiant? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. By the way, we're in a time period here of the NBA where for the first time since the late 70s, we've gone five straight years with different champions, right? You know, Warriors, actually it's now, it's basically, well, it's five or six, depending on how you want to dice this up. Like the Warriors didn't repeat. They have, they won another one, you know, 18 and 22. But like, Raptors in 19, Lakers in 20, bucks in 21, Warriors 22, Nuggets 23. five straight years of somebody else raising the trophy. We're in a time of unprecedented parity and volatility. Contracts are sure.

It's what everybody wanted. They wanted parity, guys. They wanted parity. So there's so much volatility in the league. Stars moving around luxury tax creating issues for teams. You can't keep a core together. It's really hard to keep refreshing your rotation on the fly. Everything is stacked against having a dynasty or being able to sustain.

stain one. So this is not a knock on the nuggets. This is not me having doubts about the nuggets. It's just two things. One, it's too soon to talk about a dynasty when you've only won one. When they've won a second one, it's a valid discussion. Two, it's just really hard to do in today's MBA because of the entire system is basically conspiring against it. I agree. And I wish there was a better team. They were a better team so we could discuss them like, you know, kicking ass in the record season and maybe like thinking that they, oh, man, this team is the best team in the league. Maybe we can. Well, not for nothing. The reason that people have often been slow to embrace the nuggets

or believe in them, because as great as Yokic is, two-time MVP, perennial MVP candidate, going down as one of the all-time grades, even if he retired today. But they don't have that second guy, right? Like, Jamal Murray plays in an all-stop. level has never been an all-star. Michael Porter Jr. Not an all-star. Aaron Gordon, not an all-star. They're an ensemble.

Right, they're an ensemble. This is what I'm talking about. All the recent champions have been one superstar with a great ensemble. And that's the model right now. And because of that, I think it's all harder to sustain one. It's not Michael and Scotty or Shaq and Kobe or Magic and Kareem. It's not these superstar partnerships.

And even when Wade and LeBron did it, they only did it for four years together. And by the way, also, not a dynasty. They won two. And it could have, there's this argument that could have just been one. You know, they got lucky with two. So you have, like,

the reason it's hard to, like, proclaim the Nuggets of Budding Dynasties is in part everything else I already said, but like in part, yeah, like, Yokic doesn't have his Pippin. And I think it's, it's harder to do. this time after time after time if you don't have two guys who are like top 10.

I agree. It's good to have you on. You know, it's just like a throwback to, you know, last year. So shout out to you. Thank you, Howard Beck. We will see you in the new year. This has been the last MF and Beck. Come back to us on Thursday where we're going to have our second annual release awards.

Make sure you guys listen to that. We have a lot of categories that we need to give out, including RealW, of the year. You don't want to miss it. See you guys on Thursday. And then after that, see you guys into the new year. Tap in. Ah, all the shits. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and president select states. FanDuel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit. VanDuel.com backslash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia.

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