The Ringer NBA Show - Ranking the Top 25 Players in the NBA | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

Justin and Rob open the show with reactions to a solid outing from Marc Gasol in the Lakers' win against the Nuggets and then discuss if the Lakers should be in panic mode (02:00). They also react to ESPN’s Marvel-themed broadcast (17:00). Later, they are joined by The Ringer’s J. Kyle Mann and Dan Devine to discuss their rankings of the top 25 players in the NBA (22:45). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Ron Mahoney Guests: J. Kyle Mann and Dan Devine Production Assistant: Jonathan Kermah Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Head into the Ringerverse to stay up to date with all things superheroes and nerd culture entertainment. Hosted by a rotating lineup of superfans at The Ringer, including Mallory Rubin and Van Lathen, shows will provide instant reactions to blockbuster releases, insightful backstories on canon, and mind-bending theories, as well as fresh takes on the latest news and rumors. Check out The Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Group chat, the Ringer's weekly NBA group discussion where maybe if Kyle Mann's sorry-ass was on our team, it'd be tough. But I think Rob Mahoney and I will be just fine. I am Justin Verrier joining me, the man, the myth, the post player, Rob Mahoney.

Call him out. Call out Kyle. He deserves it. We all know it. Yep. Kyle will be joining us in the back half of the show as well as Dan Devine to talk about the top 25 players in the NBA list that we published on the ringer.com today. But first, we have to talk about something way more important, especially to one of,

the two members of this podcast. Three, if we're including Kerm. Marcosol is back. Rob, are you elated or how elated are you, I will say? I mean,

I'm like Kyle Kuzma level of elated, which is like he was openly campaigning for Marcosol to get back into the rotation before this happened. I'm with him. We can all use more Markasol in our lives. And the Lakers have delivered, my friend. Yeah.

So the Lakers beat the Nuggets last night. They were in a bit of a crisis. mode going into that game. LeBron turned his ankle again and his first game back. He had those comments about not wanting to play in the play in tournament, which we should touch on at some point. But Gasol rises from the ashes, specifically from the ashes of one Andre Drummond who got toasted multiple times

against Nicola Yokic during this game. Gassal comes in late and then stays there. He finishes with 10 points, three for four from three, which was just Chef's Kiss, seven rebounds, plus 17 and 17 minutes. So I guess the big question here is, should this be a permanent thing for the Lakers going with Gassal and less Drummond?

Well, I think there's kind of two questions, right? There's, does Gassal need to play more minutes right now? Which I think it would help them, but it's probably not the most important thing. I mean, obviously now they're kind of in a fight for their seating and on a game-to-game basis where we didn't expect the Lakers to be.

So that part of it is important. I would say less important than is he going to be playing in the playoffs against the matchups that are really troublesome for the Lakers in general or that he's particularly well suited to, that question has to be yes. He has to be involved in the games that matter. If you think those games start now based on the injury situation

and who knows what's going on with LeBron's ankle, then I think he probably needs to be on the rotation on a more steady basis and certainly not getting D&P CDs. He was dealing with a hand injury there for a minute, but as far as I could tell was just getting flat left on the bench in favor of Drummond and in favor of, you know, Harold and working AD back in and trying to balance all these bigs, he's too good for that and he's too important to what they do. Yeah, I mean, well, there is the question of rotations and whatnot,

but I also think there's this bigger picture question of like how they want to play. And for a while, they'd been favoring Drummond. I don't know if that's because they made a promise to him in order to sign him. It seemed like they were really excited about this idea of like going back to what worked in the playoffs and being big with Javille and Dwight pairing with Anthony Davis. The Drummond thing hasn't worked. And I think my bigger question here is, like, should they just give Gassall all of Drummond's minutes? Do you think it's to the point where Drummond has been so bad? And in particular, in this game, he was very bad to the point where a guy who, like, his main best skill is rebounding. He got zero rebounds in this game. Do you think like they should just deprioritized

Drummond take him out of the rotation, maybe go to a more in emergency situation? Like, they were playing Gasol, basically. Yeah. I don't think we're there yet. And a lot of of that is because Drummond really only made sense for the Lakers because they had LeBron. You don't bring in Andre Drummond to play with Anthony Davis. That was never really the point of this arrangement. It was, can we put Drummond next to a big who's going to not only, next to a big guard basically, who's not going to only spoon feed him points, give him easy opportunities around the basket, but also give him a certain seriousness in his

execution, the things that come with playing for a LeBron team, we haven't really seen that yet. I think the Lakers are still, at least on defense, executing pretty well overall, sometimes in spite of Drummond. But we haven't given him time next to LeBron to figure out what the team actually looks like. For all the spacing issues, for all the troubles that the Lakers have, LeBron is the way to solve that stuff. And the fact that they haven't had that much time on the floor together, to me says you probably need to pump the brakes on doing anything that's so dramatic it could cost you Drummond's investment and attention and commitment in the ways that you might ultimately need later.

Yeah, because in Drummond's defense, he has been doing some of the dirtier work than he's been less happy to do in the past with Detroit and then later with Cleveland. Like, he's out there setting screens. He's out there rolling hard. He's like, he's down in the trenches trying to play in the muck a little bit more than I think he would like to. But I think you're right. Like last night, what I thought was they looked like a dark era Pelicans team. And unfortunately, Andre Drummond was the Omar Aschik. in this situation where the ball was just falling off his hands. Like, AD was setting him up sometimes and making the right reads, right passes. And, like, he just wasn't finishing or guys weren't connecting on three-pointers. And my big takeaway from that was, shouldn't they go more with AD at the five?

I know they're lighter on the wings, especially with then a shooter out. I believe he's in the COVID-health and safety protocols or whatever he's in these days. But Gasol seems like kind of a half measure for as long as you're playing without LeBron. Gassal gives you enough stretch, enough just like IQ out there to do some of the things that you would want around AD. And you saw AD just kind of like just have a lift in his game as soon as Gassal was out there. I mean, he makes that huge block to seal the game at the end of regulation.

So I wonder if that's what we're working with here. When LeBron is back, maybe Drummond plays a little bit more, when AD is out there and he is the focal point and you're trying to feed him and getting back to what he used to be, go more Gassal. Well, I mean, the Pelicans comparison is just mean. The Omar Ashton comparison is just mean in this. But at the same time, when Drummond and Davis have been on the floor together, the Lager offense has been a disaster.

I mean, Drummond just looks like a player in those combinations who doesn't know what to do with himself. And I don't mean that in a way that, as you said, he's not being a diva about it. Like he's trying to find his spaces and do the dirty work and do what he thinks his team needs him to do. it's just that that process may take a lot longer to feel out than a lot of people anticipated based on oh, this is former All-Star Andre Drummond. It's much more complicated than that in terms of the spacing and just the positioning of these guys,

especially when AD isn't fully AD yet. I mean, this was his best game yet, but he's going to take some time to kind of ease back into himself. But I think you're right. I think they are in kind of survival mode here. They really need to stay out of the play in tournament. That's really their main focus here. And just finding the best combination in order to get a couple wins is probably the bigger thing than identity.

Like you keep hearing about how the Lakers want to get back to this idea of being big or like yada, yada, yada. Their identity is they have two of the best players in the world. And when they're on the court, they will be like the identity of the team. The team will be very good when they have their best two players. For now, it's just, you know, kill or be kill, figure it out on the fly. Well, and the thing that the Lakers have working for them that those Pelicans teams with AD did not is, this is a top defense even without AD and LeBron. Like they were top 10 defense even while those guys were out of the lineup.

So that gives you, I mean, look, I don't need to talk to you into the defending champions and what their case should be like. It should be pretty self-evident. The issue is Drummond and how he fits into this and whether he's, is he taking anything away from you you need to be wary of? I think it's just too early for a lot of that speculation. At the same time, I do think there should be Morgasaw. I'd be fine with a better balance of that.

And you can talk about the exchange with Morris too, in terms of just how you're balancing these lineups in minutes to get Gasol on the floor more. What worries me about Drummond in the macro sense is this is his ninth season in the NBA, and throughout his career, he's given us pretty much no reason to believe that he's a guy who can deliver for you in high-level matchups.

He just has not been that player, has not had those opportunities. So you're doing a lot of this on spec. And if you trust, based on what you've seen from Drummond, based on what you think he can be, that he could ultimately deliver. delivering that way in the playoffs, good on you.

I'm not there yet. I would hope Frank Vogel isn't there yet. This team has options. As you said, they could roll out AD at the five in the playoffs whenever they want. As long as AD is willing to do it, as many minutes as he's willing to do it, they can and should. And that's their best lineup. That's their best look. What is his Drummond's

future past this Lakers experiment? Because I imagine even if he plays well enough, the Lakers won't have the money to bring him back. Do you think he ever becomes more than like a minimum contract guy again, I think he's at that point. He's in really dangerous territory

with this playoff run. You know, he's on, he is on the, the Hassan-White side precipice of falling into some, being some, like,

mid-level playoff team, second center, or, or, you know, like, energy big, like, it could be that dramatic for him.

You know, this isn't just like a one-time stop-off where he's going to go back to being a star again, unless he really proves that he can, that he can show up for those games. The attention and the focus

and the commitment to defensive positioning is there for a team that, like, LeBron is not going to take that shit. If you're just, like, slacking off mid-rotation and not doing what you're supposed to do, you're not going to play in the conference finals, the NBA finals, if the Lakers even get that far.

So this is, you know, it's a moment of truth for him. Yeah, and that's a good transition to talk about just where the Lakers are in general. So according to Zach Cram's magical NBA odds machine, They have right now a 24% chance of falling into the play. And I believe that's the fifth spot after the top four teams who are more likely to go into that play. And so the odds are in their favor that they won't land there. Their most likely seed is currently six.

Are you worried at all about the Lakers at this point? Like, are you, where are you with the panic button? Is your hand hovering over it? Is it in your pocket? Like, explain to me how like you're feeling about the Lakers these days. I'm aware, I'm kind of like eyeing the panic button from across the room. You know, like, I'm not making any sudden moves. I just kind of want to know where it is just in case.

I'm really not that worried about them yet. I think what I am worried about is we can't really know how to gauge where LeBron is right now. Because when he sits out this game against the Nuggets, is he a 36-year-old star who is playing it safe on the second night of a back-to-back? I think that's one option. Or is he a 36-year-old star who's... actually having trouble putting this high ankle sprain behind him. Those are two very different things

and two very different worlds of possibility that, again, lead to dramatically different playoff outcomes because if LeBron is not able to put all these pieces together, if he's not that version of LeBron, you're leaving a lot to chance and you're leaving a lot to, you know, to AD to figure out, to drummond to figure out, to all these role players to suddenly figure out how to provide the spacing you need

when, you know, if we want to be honest about last year's playoff run, there were a lot of aberrational shooting performances and stretches in that that maybe can't be replicated. That's not to take anything away from that title. It was its own self-contained thing. But if you want to do it again, Markeve Morris is going to have to be more than shooting, or he's going to have to shoot the best stretch of his life again

like he did in last year's playoffs. So I feel like we've been saying for days, if not weeks, that like if this team is healthy, dot, dot, dot, maybe the Nets will be like the best offense ever. Maybe the, you know, the Sixers are going to just stomp everybody with their size and they have so much shooting and all this other stuff. The Lakers, if LeBron and AD are out there, there's nobody can touch them. We're getting to the flip side of that where dot, dot, dot, but they're not.

And like, the real world repercussions of that are starting to come into play where I'm starting to get really worried about the Nets if they don't have like a fully healthy James Hardin for even like the first round or even the Lakers. Like if they don't have LeBron like at 100%. even they had like an 80% LeBron, if they bypass the play in tournament, their most likely first round matchup is with the clippers. And it's like you're immediately like face to face with the stakes

and just like your own playoff fate. And I think it could get pretty dicey pretty quickly. And so I'm worried about them in that regard. Well, the Lakers have more they can fall back on, right, in terms of established chemistry versus a team like the Nets, who they would have to figure out a lot on the fly in terms of how those, those stars work together, they just haven't had the sample

to really crack that yet. And if anything, all injuries are different in terms of the ways they affect teams and their flow and their ecosystem, but there's something to be said

about teams that definitively know that guys will not be there. You know, the Nuggets know, Jamal Murray will not be a part of their playoff run. They can build whole systems to compensate for that. They can completely change

the rotation to accommodate that. The Lakers know more than we do, certainly, is and how capable AD is ultimately going to be. But do they really know what they're going to have if they hit a first round opponent that's as good as the clippers? And I mean, all these teams in the West are so good. You know, there's some matchups that are softer than others, but they're going to have

to be, you know, really on point from the start of the playoffs. And that's to say nothing about if they fall into the play in. And those are obviously high stakes games in themselves. But that's where you hope that you can fall back on the fact that you have this chemistry, that you have LeBron, that even if he's not 100%, you have his brain. and you have his ability to process playoff matchups. That's worth a lot. If it's worth enough to win the title,

that's a whole other question. Yeah, they definitely have chemistry. They have familiarity with the experience of just going through the gauntlet of the playoffs, obviously. I think what last night underlined for me is that it's a lot relying on Anthony Davis being Anthony Davis if they aren't going to have LeBron, even if they're not going to have LeBron at 100%.

Like you want AD to step up in those situations. And while you're starting to see little glimpses of that, He even like shouted out, I'm back, I'm back after like he blocked the shot. He's definitely not all the way there. And if he's not all the way there, then I'm starting to get super concerned about this. Briefly, though, because it made such news the other day. Like, did you have any thoughts about LeBron coming out against the playing tournament? We talked about the play in last week, but specifically about the best player in the world,

not wanting to be involved in it? I mean, didn't it just fit the pattern of whoever's about to be in the plan, doesn't like the play in anymore. Yes. Yeah, I think there's this, this habit that I think a lot of us have of reading LeBron's comments as if they are like a official release from the president of the NBA and that like he has sat back in the locker room and written out and scripted out everything he's going to say

and specifically to target certain individuals or institutions and yada yada. And there definitely is some like Machiavellian side to him and he does some of that. I think it was Draymond Green talking about. the other day, just like how we used to ask reporters to, like, lob him certain questions so he can go off on them. Like, this thing, this stuff happens. But to me, that read like an NBA player in a shitty situation who did not like that shitty situation. Like, I'm planning to take next week off right before the playoffs. If the ringer was like, actually, we need you to work really intense hours for an entire week right before the playoffs, I would be like, man, that sucks. I don't want to do that.

Like, that is what it came off to me as. And I don't know. I'm very excited if the Lakers make the play in because those will be exciting games. Now I just want to know what the editorial version of the playing tournament is. Like, what is your gauntlet, like one game winner, you know, winner take all gauntlet that you would have to run in advance of the playoffs? Is it staying up in order to edit one of your columns? Well, I walked right into that one. You sure did.

All right. briefly before we pivot to the top 25 race. I want to talk about the bigger news yesterday, which is that heroes are the heroes that we need, especially in the NBA. Did you witness this Marvel ESPN broadcast last night between the Pelicans and the Warriors? You say briefly as if I don't have lots of thoughts on this. Okay, please. What was number one on your takeaway list? my number one was, I feel like my greatest regret was I was really hoping we were going to get just like a baffled Jeff Van Gundy Mark Jackson booth for this game. Wondering like what a Loki is for the second half. We didn't get that.

I mean, I will say this. Like they were, the crew who called this game was totally game for it. They did their best with a very strange situation. But one that I think certainly plays to a certain audience works for it really well. That audience is probably not us and that's okay. But my main takeaway is like, we, need more parallel viewing experiences in general. Like, I like having the optionality of picking your call, picking your style, picking your game. I think that's a, that's a model that could really

work for the NBA. So you want an NBA multiverse, is what you're saying. That's exactly what I'm saying. But I mean, how into this were you? Because, you know, you're a recent Marvel con, not even a convert, you've been recently introduced to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Did this work for you at all? Uh, sort of. It, it kind of. It, it kind of. kind of didn't get in the way of the actual broadcast, which I thought was nice. Like, there really weren't many bells and whistles, except for, like, was it Spider-Man or Iron-Man who was just, like, hanging out in the rafters? That's, you don't even know the difference between Spider-Man and Iron Man?

Well, Spider-Man typically hangs out in the rafters. I don't know what Iron Man is doing. And if we want to get into the mechanics of this all, like, wouldn't Iron Man have to be on a jetpack and wouldn't that just add fumes into the arena? And wouldn't that just, like, put everyone else at risk? definitely not from the pandemic, but from the fumes of Iron Man's jetpack. Now we're getting into the stuff that really matters.

I mean, to be honest, I almost came on this pod and put you on the spot and said, let's throw 30 seconds on the clock. Justin, how many Avengers can you name? How many do you think you could name in 30 seconds? I can name a few of them. Yeah? Yeah, no, I can name most of them, I think.

But I'm also bad at these things. Like, I always choke on Sporicles. You know, there's like Hawkeye. There's like Black Widow, Spider-Man. Hold on. Hold on. I'm throwing up the clock. Go.

Okay. All right. Hawkeye, Black Widow, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Captain Marvel, whoever the fuck Anthony Mackey is with the wings, Birdman. Hey, that's Captain America to you.

He's now Captain America. See, I know that. How many seconds do I have left? You got four seconds left. I think that's ever and on now. That's like that's, you got seven as far as I could count. You got eight?

How many are there? I mean, there's at least like maybe 10 or 12 more, I would think, probably. You got the whole, you got the whole Guardians of the Galaxy in there. You got a lot of like side characters,

side kicks, you know, you got your winter soldiers and whatnot. Sure. I think you, you acclimated yourself pretty well for somebody who, I would say,

reluctantly dipped a toe into the Marvel Cinematic University. at all. How many hero points did I get here? Not enough. I will say, we need to get a badge

on Dremon Green's basketball reference page that he is a one-time champion of the arena of heroes. That seems pretty crucial. Yeah, I also don't know how he ended up pulling that off over Stefan Curry,

who, if you'd watched the game, was clearly like the catalyst for everything good that was happening and ended up with like 40-something points. I guess Dramon had a triple double, which is cool. I mean, he was really good. And it gave us a close game in a game that was otherwise not at all a close game, which is, I mean, that's at least nice.

We could watch the hero point totals crawl forward. But I will say since we got to the Falcon and Captain America of this all, I was kind of shocked that for a company that's as protective of its spoilers as Marvel is, they just like threw out on Front Street a pretty shocking reveal from Falcon and the Winter Soldier. so I'm a little baffled by that but maybe that's for a different podcast Wait, you mean like the Captain America stuff? Yeah, the fact that Sam is now Captain America is a reveal... Yeah, they're pretty loose with that, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it was literally like the premise of the broadcast complete with image of him in suit as seems like a weird choice, again, just given the way Marvel has operated around spoilers in the past. Yeah, I have to say I had to mute the TV when Anthony Mackey came on to do that, like cross over like we're going to ask you about sports actor like celebrity actor but also about like which athletes would be the best superheroes like that shit is just like I get like the

feeling I used to have with my parents watching like a like a movie with sex in it on and you're watching it with them I get that level of cringe when I'm watching those sort of movies it was really bad oh man well I hope you didn't keep it muted because I will say no matter what you thought of this broadcast, maybe just wasn't for you. Using the Avengers theme music as bumper music going into the timeouts is just objectively great. Great. Works perfectly. I'm all for it.

Bring it into the normal ABC ESPN broadcast. Do you want to do a couple bars for us to play us out? I don't think I have like orchestral bars in me. You know, I don't have that kind of range where I can do a full like woodwind and brass section at once. All right. Maybe Kerm can throw his own rendition of there to lead us into our next section. segment. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk about the top 25 list with Kyle Mann and Dan Devine. All right, we're back, and now we are joined by

Dan Devine and Jay Kyle Mann from the Ringer. What's up, gentlemen? List rankings! Yes. And the best kind of list where we don't specify our criteria, which is really, it's always fun. Right off the rip we're going with this? Yeah, just a shot across the bow of of me, actually, because I was the one. No, no. I like the choice because I think that it sets us up to argue more, which is always good.

You know, that's what I'm saying. Everybody looks at the NBA differently. I don't see why we, you know, we clearly do. And I think that's the point of this list. So I don't think that it's a bad thing. Yes. Discourse is obviously how we solve things in this country these days. So I'm just glad we can get together in a room and hash this out, guys.

We're all in the same room. Yes, yes. We're all in the same room. A digital room. Rob might be in a forest in that room, but it's fine. Who's to say? All right. So our top 25 player list is up on the website right now. Four panelists were involved in this, Rob, Dan, Kyle, and KOC. KOC is unfortunately recording the mismatch at this time. So I will step in as his proxy. So let's go over this because there are a lot of interesting findings that, like, you know, we weren't able to really discuss in the blurbs that you you guys wrote for it. Let's start from the top. So our top five here, we have Nicola Yokic one, LeBron, James 2, Joel and Bede, three, Steph Curry, four, Kevin Durant, five. And immediately, you will note a split between our panelists for one and two. I believe Rob and Kyle had LeBron

one and Dan had Yokic one. Dan, why don't you walk us through first the case for Yokic at One. Dan, explain yourself. I would say, so two things. Well, one, I'm noticing now as I look at myself, you know, in vanity in the screen, I'm wearing my, my neighbor Serbian Totoro T-shirt, which was a Yokic joke that I made in the playoffs and somebody sent to me. This was just a coincidence. It was what was closest in the drawer, but fair enough. The universe turns and leaves us here. I have, since we started doing these lists since I've been here, I've tried to make my picks the criterion that I've been going off of is like this season who has been the best player this season who has had the biggest impact on winning this season and I think that if I'm holding

true to that as my like my rubric the way I'm thinking about these things I don't think anybody's been better at basketball this season than Nicola Yokicch um in terms of both like the there's the running joke among Sixers fans and especially the guys from the rights turkey sanchez about like the best availability the best ability is not availability it is a actual ability, and thus is the argument for Joelle-MPid being the MVP and not Nicole Yokic. And I think that breaks down when you consider that Nicole Yolkich has a shitload of ability and has been incredible this season, like running some of the numbers seeing that the marriage of efficiency, workload, and passing. So his shooting, true shooting percentage,

his assist percentage, and the workload, the usage rate. The only other players that have gotten to that level before are LeBron, Magic Johnson, and James Harden. And this is a is a 6'11, 285 pounds center, who has been the best, I think all around the best offensive player in the NBA this season carrying a team that is now like the walking wounded to the three seat in the west. So to me, it's just, if you're asking me, would I pick Nicole Eokic over insert wing destroyer here in a playoff series? I don't know that I would have there. I would give that answer. But if we're going based off of this season, I don't know that there's another answer that I felt better about making. Right. Unfortunately, Kyle feels differently about this.

And because Rob feels the same, but he feels, what Kyle, I think feels more passionately about this. Kyle, make your case for LeBron as your number one guy. Well, I mean, I think the fundamental diversion of paths here, like Dan spelled it out really clearly from the jump that, you know, that's the way that he looked at the list going in. And I, I looked at it differently. I was just looking at it like who's the best basketball player in the world right now. We're kind of in a situation. We're in a like Lucy holding the football for Charlie kind of a thing where we've had this happen a few different times where LeBron, and I think the reason that this happens is because

LeBron has been playing, you know, this game for so long and the rest and the long game factors for him to stay fresh to the end. the way that I phrased it, my blurb was, you know, LeBron isn't totally interested, just interested in being ahead at like the third leg of the race. Or I don't know how many legs are in a relay four, right? I think it's four. I used that and I didn't even check to see anyway. It depends what animals are racing.

I think that's. Yeah. So, you know, that's my thing. LeBron clearly has been pacing himself this year. Another thing that said in there is that he's moving less and slower than ever in his career. But he did this last year. And LeBron has an on-off switch. And it also speaks to LeBron's ability that he's able to be as efficient as he is moving as little.

And I think that that speaks to, you know, like economy of movement, I think is something that comes with, like, wisdom and nuance of craft over the years. Like if you watch a really good guitar player, like the best guitar players in the world, you'd be like, it seems like he's barely. moving? It's because LeBron is at that level of efficiency. Now, like, Yolkich has been unbelievable. He's posted, like, the best I mean, the best offensive season for a center ever. I mean, I don't

know how you could really argue with it. In terms of, like, box plus minus marks, in terms of volume, like Dan said, defensively he's improved. We don't really even talk about that as much. But, you know, yeah, he's an offensive supercomputer. But at the end of the day, if I want to pick somebody who

is going to lead me to a playoff series when, if healthy, you know, LeBron looked a little, he was, it's kind of cracked me up that the Lakers fans have been, we've had this micro crisis. I mean, LeBron just came back. He was clearly like avoiding contact, kind of trying to save himself around the rim, things like that. But if you're, if you want me to pick, if it's, it's that space jam scenario, if you want me to pick somebody to save the human race, I'm going to pick LeBron. And he's, he's the baddest man alive until someone knocks him off the perch, because I still think that he has that on-off switch ability to do it.

Sorry, I want to say two things very quickly. One is that it's the good fellas thing. Polly moved slow because Polly didn't have to move for anybody. That's LeBron. And then number two is just in the context of our basketball talking lives, I can't allow us to move forward without saying best offensive center for a season for a center, non-Wilt Chamberlain addition, because somebody's going to be like, oh, you guys, you idiots, talking about the now and forget.

the history of the great game. So before, I don't know, somebody of the gray beard status gets in here and starts yelling at us. Yes, we know what was very good. You were like a bad Italian accent away from being a good fellow there for a second. That was an incredible voice that you dropped into there. What was that? Is that a practice thing? This is, I mean, this might be growing up in Bay Ridge and Staten Island. Yeah. Like, it does. My dialect has evolved over years in like New England and other places. But listen, if I get drunk enough or loud enough, it starts to come back. You can drop in and out of it like I can do the Kentucky thing. It's just like people are like, how do your word choice changed? But anyway, if you go and look to it like the wilt thing, but yeah, like in terms of like scoring and like assist percentage load, like in terms of total load, like in terms of the best seasons ever, period, regardless of position. I mean, Yokic has been incredible. I guess I just couldn't help but look at it in terms of the totality of everything with the playoffs included. Yeah, that comparison between Yokic and LeBron gets at, I mean, really what's the central tension of the back half of LeBron's career, which is the difference between what we see and what we know. Like, we know who LeBron is. We know what he can do for you. But we also know that he is taking it a little lighter, at least when he was playing the season. He's just missed so much time. Like, there's not a conclusive argument that LeBron on the court has had the best season. There's a reason he's basically fallen out of the MVP conversation entirely. And yet with Yokich,

you're left to at least consider what if with this guy because he is that good and because unlike some of the other players who have been counterpoints to LeBron over the years or who have taken a run at that throne, he has the playoff credibility to say we can trust this guy in the biggest possible moments in the biggest possible scenarios.

I think you have to at least think about it. But at the end of the day, what are we doing here? Have we learned nothing about LeBron if we're going to displace him from that top spot? Well, I mean, the big thing against LeBron and his candidacy for best player in the world is that he's playing less than ever before. And I just find it very ironic that every MVP discussion that we've had specifically on this podcast is all about like, oh, this guy missed this many games. So he can't be the MVP discussion.

James Harden misses this many games. He can't be in. And then all of a sudden we're saying LeBron is playing less than ever before. And yet he is still somehow the best player in the world. Like I do feel like we're getting to a different stage of Lerbren. LeBron's career. And while he has this mastery of the game, and it's like vice grip over what happens on the floor, like, I don't know, you can't count on him as much. And I feel like that has to be part of the calculus here, no? Kyle, what do you think? I, yeah, it's just, I don't, I don't think

that we can, LeBron, do you remember on Twitter last year during the bubble playoffs, like, what happened? Like, social media just erupted because they couldn't believe that LeBron still had this, this gear that he could go into where he still has this ability. And we really haven't had the reason that LeBron is so, so special, I'm going to tell you the one reason right now while LeBron is. We've never had a guy who has been able to adjust. I mean, he's errorproof, number one, as a player. Like, he can play any style. And he can adjust his offense to volume at such a high efficiency. Like, he can play out of the post, he can play in the pick and roll. But then also, LeBron can still dictate tempo as a defensive anchor on the other end.

And he proved last year again that he could still do that. Now, they needed AD to go play five at the end, which I'm sure we're going to talk about that later on. But I just think that I think in terms of who's still playing, who's still healthy, I think that there's a lot of pitfalls with that conversation. I still believe that he has it in there. It's kind of like there's a line that you cross in terms of like best players in the world.

I think you have to either be like done, done, or you're still in contentioned. You know what I mean? Like, it's either you've gotten so hurt that we're just like, we don't think that you can do it anymore. I'm just not to that point. I think LeBron still has the gear. Yeah, I think that's totally fair. I think the thing with me is I looked at this exercise, not as like, all right, if we're playing the video game with fatigue and injuries off, who's the best player in the game. Because if that's what we're talking about, then the answer remains LeBron James until proven otherwise.

I completely agree with Kyle's point there. In the reality of this season, the context of the end. NBA as it exists in 2020, 2021, and what the last, you know, 60-odd games have shown us, I think that's where you can say this version of Nicole Yolkich has been better than this version of LeBron James this season in totality. And, I mean, the sound you hear is probably, you know, might be, you know, roaring Lakers fans and frankly Sixers fans, wondering why we haven't talked more about Joelle M. B. coming up. But I think that that's like, it's the, the obvious you know that the risk is sounding sort of dopey like best is a pretty uh it's a pretty broad

brush to paint with and and sort of which way you want to use it set might say a lot about what you value at what point in uh even season yeah the breadth of that i think is interesting and we can dig into just like how many players you guys even considered for that top spot because you know it naturally kind of breaks up into some tiers i'm curious you know dan how many how big was that group for you. For number one? For number one. I'd say probably five at the very, the start of it.

I mean, LeBron for that reason, Yokic for the reason that I wound up picking him, and Bede more for the reason that I wound up picking Yokic, where it's like the context of right now. And then in terms of, I guess, sort of overall impact, I think that's what the, if you turn injuries and fatigue off, you know, that sort of idea, or who would you, who would you trust in one game, everything on the table, what you needed. Kevin Durant, I think, moves very quickly to the top of that list or near the top of that list. It's wild to watch him this season because he's missed so much time for so many different reasons. But whenever he is back on the

court, it's like nothing has changed. And he is just the wildly efficient, you know, overwhelming score from anywhere force that he was like at the level where he was becoming the best player in the game in Golden State before he got hurt in those playoffs when you were like, oh, wow, he's like, number two no longer here is the guy who's taking the throne. He is that guy. He just is that guy, except that we don't see him as often because he's been out for a lot of different reasons. So that and then, you know, Steph Curry, I think when we started talking about this and making the list, it was like, well, if Steph Curry is the flaming sort of justice for the entire remainder of this season, it's going to be entirely difficult to not say him.

If he's averaging 40 points a game on 67% true shooting or whatever, that's going to be tough to say no to. But yeah, to that point, Rob, I think, like, the other name that sort of threw me in that conversation was Harden. Because when we saw James Hardin, it was like, oh, right, that guy was a, has been the top three MVP finisher for, you know, what, I don't know, time immemorial at this point it feels like. But it's half of the time or so this season and also in varying, varying context. I wonder, what did he look like for you guys?

How did you kind of come down on where Hardin stood? Yeah, Hardin for me, I mean, I had him seventh. I was, it's hard for me because this is another part of the conversation is when you're looking at it the way and we're differing on the way we're looking at it again is like the whole thing of do we trust them to perform down the stretch. That part of it just can't be removed for me. And I think that something that two-way impact is something that I weigh really, really heavily. I didn't do that when I was younger. It's sort of that like political party trope that you hear from people. They're like, you grow up this thing and then you become this thing.

Like I've been a big offense guy my whole life. But I have just in the past two or three years become very much a defense guy. So, I mean, and then another thing, too, that's really big about the discussion that I think can't be removed from this in terms and really separates players and separates teams is the same. idea of sequential basketball versus, you know, one-off scenario basketball. Because the regular season doesn't depict an aspect of a team's quality or a player's quality because it doesn't depict their ability to be versatile and or, you know, because there are some offensive schemes we saw this last year with the Bucks. The Bucks would roll into town. They'd hit you with this insane transition feeding spot-up offensive thing. And Yannis posted these insane numbers.

and I'm sure we'll talk more about Janice, but there are some teams that do that, like Hardin did the same kind of thing, but in a sequential scenario where teams that have the ability to adjust can adjust, you look at like what happened to Hardin, well, he didn't go the distance. So for me, I just always am thinking about that,

how versatile is a player at the highest level, how much are they going to be able to expand and adjust during a series. I had Harden at 7, partially because of those questions that I still have about him. That might be a little harsh. I mean, what do you all think about that?

Well, the sequential part of that conversation, I think, is where we get into Kauai Leonard, too, who is probably hurt a little bit on this list and in these kinds of exercises just by Durant coming back, because Durant, in a lot of ways, is Kauai, but longer and better and more efficient. You know, maybe not the defender if you really want to buckle down in a playoff series in that kind of situation. But if you're going to weigh those two guys, Durant is right here at the top of the heap for me. And it was very difficult for me to talk myself out of the idea that in any kind of high leverage situation, Kevin Durant isn't the guy I want in control of things. But Kauai is so compelling in that way, in that same two-way style that Kyle mentioned in all that sequential and adjustment. And there's just nothing you can throw at him that can rattle him, that can change the way he plays.

That's so powerful. Especially, you know, even if we're going to compare him to players like Steph or players like Hardin who I think you can technically. against in certain ways that with Kauai you just can't do. Dan, did you weigh that kind of immutability at all in terms of how, how defenses adjust to these guys and what responses they might have to it? Somewhat, yeah. I mean, again, the idea for me was a little less like if you were picking one guy to win a playoff game, who would you pick?

And a little more of, I guess, body of work and sealing over the course of this basketball season. Not that Kauai Leonard takes a backseat in that discussion either. Like, he's been freaking insane. But I think, I think that that's a completely fair way to view like, like, just one-on-one who's the best player. And it's why some, you know, some like smaller guards wind up getting dinged in this because you know in the context of a postseason series or in the context of a, you know, single elimination type situation, put a bigger defender on him. It's going to be harder. It's going to be harder for that guy to make the plays and get the shots off and get where he wants to go. Then it would be for the, you know, the queen on the chess board type.

And that there are so many of those types now that operating at such a high level is, you know, I think one reason why it's kind of easy to find a cool game to watch almost every night at this point. But it does make this exercise a lot trickier because not only it's like you have the hires, some of the highest levels of that type of player in the league history now, just based on the way players have evolved and skill sets have developed, range has stretched, all stuff like that. efficiencies being sort of sought out. You also have two of like the most dominant offensive big men that we've seen in a long time. I guess also three if you want to include Yonis Haida-Combo into that because who's an, you know, another really grades out well in that two-way discussion, certainly. And the more he has games where he just drops in a whole bunch of, you know, punishes your drop defense by dropping in a whole bunch of jumpers means that that becomes a lot

tougher to deal with him in a, in that sort of sequential basketball series too. and then you also have the crazy high leverage point guards, right? Like all of a sudden there's game wrecking point guards and then just, you know, little little Chris Paul over here too. So the high level all sort of all of the different offensive roles and, you know, game organizing players on all sides is kind of wild. Like, I mean, the thing that these lists do outside of make people really mad is make me appreciative of just like how wide an array of awesome different kinds of players we get to watch.

I know that that's not really going to make anybody stop yelling. But that's where I come to at the end of it anyway. Sure. We should mention that six through 10 on our list since we mentioned one through five. Six is Kauai. Seven is Janus. Eight is Hardin. Nine is Anthony Davis, who I really want to talk about here. And Luca Donchus is 10. Anthony Davis, probably the widest split. on the ballots, in part because Kyle had him wildly high. I think most people had him in that range in the 9, 7, 8 range. Kyle, you did not have him in the 978 range. You had him, what, third? I had him second. Oh, you had him second. This is great. So, okay, so walk us through that thinking there. I feel like what's the Eldorado meme with the swords all around me? That's kind of how I feel

right now. No. It comes back to, you know, his health situation is really perilous. I mean, I think that he, then he grabbed his Achilles during the playoffs last year. It's kind of, it's been a lingering thing, you know, whether or not, if he's fully healthy, I guess that's what this all hinges on is my idea of when it comes to, you know, brass tacks at the end of a series, if they're trying to put the, if the Lakers are trying to put the finishing blow on whoever they're playing it. You could go into, cascade into a million conversations about where the Lakers are and how they're doing and all those things. I don't want to do that at this moment. But AD, to me, is still the most versatile defensive weapon in the world. I still think that he is.

I still think that he puts a lot offensively on the table. I talked a little bit about this. In my blurb that, like, we talk a lot about, like, there's this sort of mirrored thing going on with him where, you know, obviously insane finisher, crazy catch radius around the rim, best lob finisher of all time, in my opinion. But then you look at just the subtle ways that he impacts teams when he turns it on. And he has done that at different times this season. Last season, I was saying that, like, teams, he was so effective guarding ball screens that teams basically didn't go at him. Like, if you flip the amount of times per 100 positions that, possessions that teams would run ball screens against Anthony Davis significantly lower.

And that's a really interesting stat because if you flip it the other way, Ennis Cantor has like a secretariat lead at the top. They're just like canter ball screen, canter ball screen. But Davis, I just think I think he proved it at the end of last year. Even we watched something like Bam, remarkable defensive player. But then we watched it at the end. And I remember having conversations with Charks about this. It's just like you just saw this other level that he could go.

to. And to me, that's what I went to. And I just think when both are clicking at the highest level, I think he and LeBron are the best tandem in the world. I think that Davis is an unbelievable two-way player for a series like that. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because even you're seeing now, just like the gap between playoff basketball and regular season basketball is becoming wider by the year. I'm curious, Rob, like, how did you factor that in? Because it is a different game. And you see certain players like AD, take his game to another level. Did you have to incorporate that

in your thinking when you're writing these guys? I think you have to. And some of it is just kind of in your brain when you hear the phrase, best player, what do you go to? Are you going to that bigger sample? Are you going to that body of work? Are you going to, I think as Kyle and I did

more of a situational, like if, you know, if I really needed to win this game, if I really needed to win this series, who are the guys that I trust the most. And AD is very high on that list. I think where he gets, dinged a little bit is just that so many of these guys who I had ranked above him are more like

first order, first option offensive players in ways that AD can be, but has sometimes struggled to be. And that's tough. Like that kind of hierarchy is tough because I think there are situations where if you put the exact right supporting cast around Anthony Davis, that's a championship team even without a LeBron-level co-star. We just haven't seen it in that way. We haven't seen the usage and the creation in quite that capacity. and maybe you don't need that to be the best player in the league.

I'm here to listen to that argument. But for me, this was the toughest part of this whole ranking, is sorting out exactly that and sorting out the back half of the top 10 into maybe 11 and 12, where you just get the sticker shock of seeing Anthony Davis at 9 or Janus at 7. And it's like, holy shit. This league is stacked in a way where you may have in your brain that a guy is a top 5 or a top 8 or a top 10.

guy, we don't have Damien Lillard in the top 10. I don't know how to process that bit of information other than to say, stack up the names. And I think you'll probably come to a similar conclusion that we did. I think that you said something interesting. And I think you come down to philosophy a little bit too. And I think that this all plays like you really pinpointed on like usage and creation. And to me, that's one of the most fascinating parts about this. It's like usage specifically, I feel like we equate volume with quality, which isn't always the, and then you get into this thing about like Stan culture, I feel like is really driven by like, they really love guys who produce it like high volume, whether it's super efficient or not.

But then you kind of, when you zoom out, you're like, that's counterintuitive to what we're doing here. Because like there is a definite threshold for basketball players where if you're carrying a certain volume, your ceiling starts to come down, I feel like. Like for a player, like, I was looking at it, like the highest, I had somebody help me research this, like the highest, like single person, like volume and scoring to also be like successful in terms of like volume and creation. It's like it's all Jordan. So for like for you to win at the highest level and to be really, really voluminous,

whatever the word would be, to score to a high volume like that. It's not honestly, quit laughing. It's a luptuous, yeah. It's not a common thing. So I guess it comes down to philosophy on that front, too. But yeah, for me, AD's two-way potency. It's kind of where I was with that. But yeah. I'm just more surprised that you have interns helping you with this. No, I have very nerdy analytics friend who looked it up for me. Okay. KOC. We got it. I mean, there's no question that, like, usage for the sake of usage has its very clear limits. But I think there's also something that honestly, at this point, we probably have to call the Russell Westbrook corollary given his comments the other night, which is, if other guys could do it, they would. And I think, I think there's a point at which, obviously, if you give any player all the shots, all the touches, all the usage, it makes you too predictable. It bogs your offense down.

It works against the efficiency. But there's a nice little sweet spot there that I feel. like AD still has some upward mobility in terms of, I don't know whether it's tightening up his handle, I don't know whether it's the face-up mid-range game, which I think can be really strong some nights, but can come and go also depending on kind of when you catch him and the matchups. That's the part of it that worries me, especially, you know, we're not comparing him against the Bam out of bios of the world. We're comparing him against the James Hardens and the Steph Curry's, like some of the best offensive talent we've ever seen in the NBA. And as compelled

as I am by the two-way play like you are, Kyle. You know, I just, I couldn't cross that bridge with him. Yeah. I mean, he fits so well with LeBron because he does all those other things, right? And perhaps he doesn't get in LeBron's way when LeBron needs to like take the mantle and do those other things. So the rest of the list here down to 25 from 11th, Dame, then it's Chris Paul, Zion Williamson, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Kyrie Irving, Jason Tatum, Rudy Gobert,

Bradley Beal is 19, Devin Booker is 20, Julius Randall, yes, at 21, 22, Donovan Mitchell, Bamete, Edibio, Drew Holiday, Carl Anthony Towns. Dan, what is the most surprising amongst that list of guys, the bottom 15? You know, the, well, I mean, it kind of did my heart good a little bit to see Beal go as high as he did there. I think we've done this exercise before, and it's like, well, they weren't winning. And so he was putting up crazy numbers, but it wasn't super efficient. And also their defense was bad. And so he kind of falls down.

And I remember, like, you know, just going through the list and kind of sliding in names and moving them up and down in the list. And there was a point where I had, like, you know, Donovan Mitchell was there. I was like, okay, he's a top 25 guy, fair enough. And then I put Bradley Beal down, like, underneath him just for the purposes of putting that name up there. And I was like, oh, no, no, like, instinctively. It's like, no, Bradley Beal has to go above Donovan Mitchell.

Bradley Beal belongs higher than him. And so, like, seeing that he bumped up to top 20, as opposed to like 24 makes me kind of happy because he deserves that with the the quality of his play, the way that he's been like a metronome with the resurgence of that wizard's team. Like, Russ has been the catalyst over the last, you know, month or so, but Beal has just been insanely good for the whole time. And so that's been kind of, it's cool to see that we've, you know, come around to recognizing that and we didn't need anybody to yell at us on Twitter about it.

The other thing, I mean, like, listen, I can, the first. fact that Julius Randall might have an argument to be higher on this list is personally a wonderful development, something that has made my spring better, has made me a happier partner and parent, has improved the quality of my days and my nights. So I can't find a single person who, if they were being honest, would tell you that they believed Julius Randall would average like 24, 11, and 6, and shoot 40% from the three point line for a full season. And then that's what reality is now. Shots that seem on their face absurd, him jab stepping like Carmelo into a right-leaning

step back on the baseline fading away, shot lefty into a shot blocker, go in with regularity. And it's now like, well, I guess I don't know what you're supposed to do about Julius Randall shooting that shot. Like, we've been here for a half decade or six years or seven years or whatever it is. And now all of a sudden, this is here. I know that this is all setting up to break my heart in about few in a few weeks, but I kind of don't care because watching Randall develop this way, this consistently has been one of the weirdest, most unexpected and most positive developments for a player in, I don't even know how long. Like, it's the reason that like all of the preseason stuff that we do and the rankings and the tears and the whatever, at a certain point, all of it just gets deposited in the trash can because like, oh, well, as it turns out, that guy can just do that now. And that's nuts. So that, I mean, the bottom 15, I guess the biggest surprise to me is that maybe Julius Randall needed to be higher, even on my list. So that's kind of rad. I looked up a stat the other day of Randall when they were talking about like kickout passes, this tracking. was using kickout passes. Randall has thrown the most kickout passes for made threes in the

NBA, 180. He leads the NBA in that stat this year. So if you combine, I was saying this the other day, you know, like, the shooting is unbelievable with Randall, and it's really, it's really unlocked him. Yeah, his improvement's been unbelievable. And I had a weird time. I was thinking about that, like, that Simpsons, that Swartzweiler interview the other day where he was talking about how he wrote, where he said he didn't really try to ride it the first time. He would just kind of empty it out and then fix it. That's kind of what you were describing and reminding me of that. And I kind of did the same thing.

And it's kind of wild how high guys can climb when you're doing it that way. And you'll look back at it and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like as they keep climbing and you have to just circle back. Yeah, Randall's been unbelievable this season. I kind of was looking at like one of the ones that I had a hard time with Embed, I'll be honest, a little bit of a hard time. I know I've been really popular with Sixers fans this year, sarcasm. I mean, when it comes to, when it comes to like Steph, Durant, Kauai, and even Janus, if we're looking at it, I'm just this purely thought experiment here. I mean, how do you feel about Embed's place within that group of guys when it comes to, okay, in a series, we're making a lot of adjustments. Who do I trust to be the most productive under those circumstances?

What do you all think about that? There's not a great precedent for Embed as a guy who has proven to be that player. I think it has to be more perspective. It has to be based on everything we've seen this season, him becoming more of a face-up threat, his conditioning improving. God forbid him staying healthy. Like all of those things have to, they have to hit just right. And I think that's where I think your argument has a lot of credibility because we're probably

giving him a lot of benefit of the doubt, whereas a laundry list of former MVP's who fall behind him I mean, that's a tough fall for them. You know, when those guys have shown in conference final series the ability to adjust in ways that Embed in series the Sixers have lost, not just because of him, but he's played a role in those losses and in some of those disadventious positions he's put the Sixers in.

I don't know how you weigh that other than to say we expect him to be better next time. Yeah, I think my answer to how much do you believe in Embed in that situation now is more than I ever have before. And we're not super far removed from him being, you know, the second best player in a series with the best version of Kauai we'd ever seen and lose it. And the Sixers losing that series, despite outscoring the Raptors by 109 points in the series with Embed on the floor because they couldn't, you know, live with two and a half minutes of Greg Monroe at the backup five. Like,

when the context is there for him, and that was with him being like sick in that series too, you know, this is the better. This is a better. This is a. a better version of Joelle Ambide than that one, and I believed that one could be the best player on the floor in a series like that. So if we're talking now about a more, a sort of healthier infrastructure around him, and I think we are, I think we would agree that this version of the Sixers is the best version of the team that they've had to this point. I guess you can argue about the ceiling of the Jimmy Butler version of the team, but I think all things considered, this is probably the best Sixers team that they've had in this run. And if Embed is the best version of himself

there and is capable of being a defensive player of the year caliber shot blocker who does that same thing that you were talking about, Kyle, where he's just like, it's a no-fly zone around the rim when I'm in there. Nobody's coming into the paint. They're going to shoot less when I'm around. They're going to shoot worse when I'm around. And then also be a 36% usage hub guy that is wildly efficient and doesn't have to subsist just on free throws or just on post-ups, but can kind of get it how he lives from wherever. That, I think there's a lot of power in that. And I might wind up being wrong about what Embedd is capable of,

but if we're again, in my context for making these lists, I was like, right now, who these players are right now? And I don't think I'm giving Joel Embed a bigger benefit of the doubt than I would be for like, you know, Kevin Durant missing half the year or some of these other guys that have been out for a long period of time. Anthony Davis missing 30-odd games. and also not looking all that great this season

when he's been on the court for most of it. I think that there's, that there's, I have more reason to believe in what Joelle Ambid is right now in this moment than I did some of those other guys. So that's why he wound up that high on my list. How did Kyle pull the rabbit season, duck season switch on us there in terms of,

all of a sudden we're arguing for the two-way player. He's arguing for the superstar scores. What just happened? Yeah, Kyle, do you want to reveal where you have, at Embeddeed on your ballot? No. All right. I really don't. Just to avoid my popularity going any lower with those people. No, I mean, I think those people.

Those people, Jesus. No, no. I think that something, you all hit on something. One, I think Embedd is getting an upward bump, and I think he and Janice have had an interesting dynamic because he got an upward bump, and I feel like Janus got a downward bump. But I also, think that, you know, like, you mentioned, Dan, you mentioned just like his, or maybe it was Rob, like, his, his situation has improved a lot. And I think that we just tend to discount that, you know, like you were talking about, like, you were penalizing AD for not being, I'm not trying to go back to the AD thing, but like, it is an interesting philosophical thing in the way we talk about who's the best player in the world, because we assume LeBron's the best player

in the world. I think he is. But, you know, none of these guys do it by themselves. Pretty much all the way across the board, you need to have a super high, even LeBron needed to go join another super high usage creator and score to get over the hump. And he has at every point, even Jordan, you know, every star throughout.

So it is an interesting thing that we would penalize them, but really you need both types. You need a two-way, you need high-level two-way players and you need high-level volume scores. Well, I think the interesting thing about that as it relates to Yokic is that kind of whoever you've put on the floor with them,

it's been that, right? When it was Murray and Murray was there, then yeah, Yokic is having this remarkable season. Murray goes out, keeps rolling. All of a sudden, I mean, now that, not to discount Michael Porter Jr. in the leap that he's made over the last stretch here, which has been incredible.

But, you know, I think they're without their entire top two levels of back court at this point, because now it's Murray's out. Monte Morris is out. Will Barton's out. And I believe to PJ Dozier just went out last night. And they just keep rocking. They just keep going. And it's, um, the, uh, Sirat Sohi wrote a really good piece about Yokic's MVP candidacy saying

that's basically like the nuggets never stop being the nuggets. And that's why in this season of sort of uncertainty and frailty and, uh, tumult all over the place. He is that constant. And I think that, you know, that, you know, the point that you're making, everybody else needs the high level number two. And he, he, he certainly benefited when he's had them. But he's kind of been enough for everybody at this point. Yeah. It's about the friends we made along the way is always, always. All right. Let's pivot now to, I guess, the opposite of friends, the people we left behind who didn't make the cut here. What I thought was really interesting is that although you guys ranked the 25 in different ways, there weren't a lot of players that you all didn't put on your list. Like, there are only three players

actually that someone put in the 25 that someone else didn't. Those three players, Ben Simmons, Chris Middleton, Jalen Brown, and which I found really fascinating because when we did these in the past, the names were all over the place. And now we concentrated the voting panel to you guys, because you guys are the regular player analyst on the staff here. But is it that, Rob? Or do you think that there's more just like conventional wisdom, everyone thinks that are just more consensus about these 25 guys than there has been in the past? I think, more of Dan and Kyle has been rubbing off on me and infecting my brain than I would like to have admitted. Yeah, I mean, it's clearly a lot of insular group think going on. But no, I mean, you can tell even from this conversation, we're coming at this from such different angles that I don't find the group think argument to be that persuasive. I think if you're using different criteria, if you're using different framing devices for how you're coming to your conclusion, it's kind of a miracle that we ended up with a similar group of players in some ways. But I think some of us may feel like, I know, I feel pretty.

strongly about the fact that I have a hard time understanding how Ben Simmons is not on this list. I just do not understand it. I'm sure you guys have those players for you. But yeah, depending on how you're kind of approaching this process, you're going to be left with somebody. You're kind of furious about that missed the cut. Yeah, Simmons was on my list. He was in the low 20s. I forget where he was, but he was on my top 25. I think the, the ability, you know, Kyle had made the argument for before for two-way players. And the argument that as it relates to Ben Simmons is at this point pretty tiresome. He is one of the best two-way players in the sport, whether he is the version of an offensive player that you want is, you know, that's a matter of taste and some

debate and also results in the postseason and we'll see. You know, more will be revealed. But I agree with you, Rob. I think that he, I would have had him in there. The name that, honestly, like, as I'm looking at all this now, where I'm like, I goofed. is I kind of feel like I probably should have made room for me either, you know, Middleton, Jalen, or Westbrook. No, you know, Middleton, Jalen or DeRosen maybe over Towns. Towns is, at times was number 25 for me, he was like the last, I think the last name I put on the list.

And I don't know if it's because I was sort of like, yeah, right, at the end or if there was, if there was a broader thought process involved there. I have to see Carl Anthony Towns be real good on both ends of the floor for a longer period of time before I do this again. Please clip and save this audio and remind me of it the next time I do something like this. But I'm just getting I'm getting tired of he's in arguably offensively gifted and arguably valuable as somebody that you can build an offense around. I believe that the wolves are scoring at something like a top five level with him, Edwards. and DeAngela Russell all on the floor together. They're also giving up like 126 points per 100 possessions

with all three of those guys on the court together. And I'm kind of going to stop giving a shit about it until that changes. So I think making room for a better two-way player like Middleton, like Brown, or somebody who's just been like rock solid, like DeRosen all year, I think would have made a lot of sense there.

So that's my Mea culpa. I don't know if anybody else wants to do that. That's some Catholic stuff that I do. but like maybe I don't know if you guys want to do that too. I think that's fair. I think that if I'm looking at what, what, what do you also can look at this like,

what would I have a harder time finding? What is more, I guess it's that it's sort of the, the version of like the replacement level thing. Like what would I have a harder time replacing? I feel like what Towns gives me is historically special, like his player type. I wanted to throw a,

Simmons is a guy that I had in like the, in that like 26, 27, 28 range. Like he was just outside. but he definitely could. I'm all in on like the arguments for him. I think that like I hear them and I don't think that they're wild, I would say. I was looking at his like positional defensive versatility according to B-ball index. He has guarded the point guard position almost identically as much as he's guarded the power forward position this season,

which is very, very special. I think that, you know, inefficiency as an offensive player is really only an issue. if you have like a really flawed idea of yourself. If you're an inefficient, like Dremont is like the best example of this, I feel like. Dremont, it gives you insane defensive value usually.

And he gives you a lot of hero points. That's another thing too. I posted his hero illustration. What was that? Did I put it in the document? Did you all see that? He did. His rocky elbows.

Is he like the thing from, from Fantastic Four? Or corg? He does have kind of a corg vibe. Who the fuck is corg? Justin, you've got to see Ragnarok. You've got to read Planet Hulk. Oh, man, I actually haven't.

I've been saving that one. Actually, I got Disney Plus during the pandemic and burned through literally all of the Marvel movies that I refused to watch for 10 years. Did not watch that one. Well, you should watch it. KOC isn't watching any of me, so you guys could watch them together.

But so, yeah, I actually was thinking when you were talking about, Middleton is one that slipped a lot for me, because I remember when we did this last year, I think we did it through 50 games. I wrote Middleton's, and I feel like he was ranked like top of top of the net rating thing. He was extremely high. But that's the whole like context bump thing that happens year to year. I feel like he was in a, he was in a situation. Like you'll look at like the reason that Utah Jazz players are all like at the top of the net rating thing is because it's a team sport and it's like rising tide kind of thing. But Simmons is a guy and like towns for me, I just think that, like, like I think you're right. I just think that he's so special in that, like, what he gives is so unique and it would be harder to get that kind of thing. He could climb. My question for you all would be like, Dan, let's say hypothetically tomorrow, Towns wins you back over.

And he does, starts to do some of the things. What do you, how high do you think that he could climb? He brings chocolates. He brings flowers. He's got everything. He doesn't have to. He doesn't have to bring anything. Minnesota has to bring him a defensive force.

that can actually sit next to him for a while. But if Carl Anthony Towns did this offensively on a team that finished even average in points allowed per possession, I think Minnesota is probably like a 50 win team that's fighting for home court. So he could rise very high in that. And so like that's context dependent and that's not necessarily getting at specifically the individual evaluation of the player. But it's also we've now seen X amount of years of Carl Towns as the center in a lineup that can't stop anybody. And so that's like, yes, his offensive production, the ability to be like a, I don't know,

you know, seven foot Clay Thompson is amazing. That's fantastic. But then there's part of me also that feels like it's big man, Tray Young. And I don't know what to do with that. Now we've seen because Tray Young didn't make our list, right? Trey Young puts up historically special statistics is a driving force, but he had a great offense. But even with now improved context around him and better teammates,

we still look at him and say, well, yeah, that's special, but I don't know. And so I think obviously Towns being able to do that at the five changes the overall amount that you respect what he brings. But until it actually translates into something, you know, if we're talking about who's the guy you'd want to pick. So for me, he didn't make my list as he made my list at the 25th spot, but he didn't go higher there because Minnesota doesn't merit higher consideration there, I don't think. And then also, I don't think he would fare very well under.

the if you had to pick a guy to win the game against the aliens thing. I don't think he, I don't think I would feel super great if my number one pick was Carl Towns and then I had to build my team around him because we've seen a whole bunch of iterations of that and it hasn't worked so hot so far. Fair. No, well, the Trey Young thing

is interesting because the debate, I think we had on this podcast during the All-Star going into the All-Star pickings was Trey versus Zach Levine. I think the panel all wanted Levine and I made the case for Young saying that like, what is really the difference other than like we had the surge of Trey Young last year and this year was the rise of

Zach Levine. Like we need to appreciate what he's actually doing in the shitty situation in Chicago. I do not see either of them on this list. And I think in particular, I'm surprised about Levine. Rob, as is the number one Levine defender of the world. Like, can you just like account for yourself? Like, what did you do here? What a corner I've drawn myself into. man, if you could have told me three years ago, I would become the number one Zach Levine defender in the world. Would you still be in the profession?

I might just have to hang it up. I mean, he like so many of these other guys just gets boxed out by the numbers. Really, really good offensive player. I think, you know, like Towns is held back somewhat by his context in a way that's just hard to figure out what he would be if he were put into a different role

in a different kind of team. Like, we can guess at those things. we can guess at what Zach Levine looks like with a fully functional team around him and a whole season with Nikola Vucovich. We can take a stab at that stuff, but it's hard when Drew Holiday is sitting right there being a two-way monster every night.

That's a tough break for him. And that's where it comes down to so many of these guys who kind of slipped just outside our rankings. I do get a sense that Levine is in that group, even though you have Middleton, you have Jalen Brown, another guy who I just don't really understand how it didn't end up in our top 25. but such as life.

And, you know, if we're going to talk about snubs and we're going to point to Trey and to Zach, I mean, I'm taking Jalen Brown over both those guys. Mm-hmm. Well, the Drew Holiday one is interesting, especially since Middleton did not make it. Rob, again, I ask you, does this hurt? Because I expected to see him 15, top 10,

maybe three on your list, and he was nowhere to be found, my friend. Who's to say he wasn't? You know, if Kyle can keep his ballot secret, I think I can keep my Chris Middleton boat's secret. I'm cherry picking what I keep secret just from my own sanity and mental. Sure. But no, I do think the beautiful thing about the Bucks is that him and Holiday are so close.

And it just depends on kind of what you need on a possession to possession night to night basis, what the matchups allow. There's a natural give and take between those two guys that makes their ranking pretty flexible. But the fact that they're both in this range is what makes Milwaukee a contender. That's the important thing. I was watching, I was watching possessions where, Drew is guarding the ball handler and Janus is guarding the screener earlier. You're just having a cool Friday night watching Synergy.

Just purely for fun. I just wanted to tack that in there. That is a really interesting thing. And the other and the reason that the Bucks, the honest thing just is really interesting to me because we really dinged him for being this just just like heliocentric force that was carrying this incredible offense last year. We were just like, well, didn't work, and we don't expect it to work again until you prove otherwise. And it's just like, that's just not basketball, it depends on teammates. And I think

Drew is going to be, it's such an addition for them just because last year they would just get into these situations where it would be like, Yonis does his insane thing, but smart, off ball, really flexible defensive teams could switch away from the ball. They could just shut those things down and their creation would just get,

it really hit a wall. And Drew is going to be, He just helps them in so many ways. Like, he really improves on what Bledsoe couldn't give them at the end of the year last year. And I don't know, it's, it's, I feel like we've had an interesting, in the last week or so, I've just observed.

Have you observed the Bucks thing? Kind of, kind of like, that has been really fascinating to watch for me. Beating the Nets on national television is we'll do that for you. Right. There's a re-appreciation for the Bucks, but there's also a re-appreciation for Drew.

There's, like, I was thinking about this during that Nets game. Like, we always say the difference between like a good and a great player is like the great player will make other players better, right? With Drew, I feel like he makes the buck's work simply by being on the court. He makes life easier for Janus, for Middleton, for the Dante DiFincenzo's, just because he's able to do things and take it off their plate. And so it's a subtle difference. But I feel like, especially now that all the numbers look very glossy and very nice, I feel like Drew is starting to, you're having this yearly conversation with Drew,

it's like, Drew Holiday, most underrated player in the league, and then you talk about him too much. And he's like, oh, no, he can't be underrated too much because we talk about him too much. So we're in that spin cycle of the year. I'm just trying to get underrated to the tune of two consecutive max contracts. Can I get that kind of underrated?

That's the wild thing. He just has a good agent. You have to be underrated with a good agent. We have a hard time, like, placing these guys historically. I feel like it kind of comes back to the reason, like one of the funniest, like, historical arguments is like Scotty Pippen, is he a top 50 player? Like that kind of thing.

Just because you can defer and you're like an amazing top elite level two way player. We're just like, I don't know. I just feel like that that I see it like I see that reflected in the way that we have a hard time placing Drew because if you listen to like other NBA players, his approval rating is through the roof. They're just like this guy is the dude. Like he's, you want him on your team. I just I just think that's really interesting. Well, think about the way this list broke out, which is we're saying. Drew Holiday is one of the best number two guys in the NBA right now, which I don't think is unfair, given what he gives you on both sides of the ball. And to what Kyle was saying about, you know, we get locked into the what you see is all there is kind of trap in terms of usage, in terms of role. I think what's so great about Drew is you can imagine him in so many different

kinds of situations. This just happens to be a great one for him. Yeah. All right. Let's end it there. Thank you gentlemen for joining us. You can find them on Twitter. tell them how stupid and wrong they are. I did not vote on this. You cannot do that for me. 50 grand I'll reveal Kyle's list. I just want to say, coward, you didn't vote.

There it is. Yeah, this is true. All right, thank you to Jonathan Kerma on production. Get Well to Charks, who I am pleased to announce, listen to our last episode of the podcast, the first time ever. So thank you to him for giving us

one or more download or stream or listen to whatever calculus they use here. until next time we'll see you