The Ringer NBA Show - Rasheed Wallace on Detroit Basketball Revival and Jokic’s Impact. Plus, NCAA Women’s Tourney With Seerat Sohi

Episode Date: March 29, 2025

NBA champion and Philly hoops legend Rasheed Wallace returns to Real Ones to discuss Detroit Basketball finally playing competitively again (5:05). The Memphis Grizzlies shockingly parted ways with Taylor Jenkins on Friday. Rasheed and Raja react to Jenkins getting fired so close to the playoffs (25:29). Is Nikola Jokic having the same impact on the league that Shaq did (45:02)? Plus, Rasheed reveals his top five trash-talkers, best players out of Philly, and what he thinks of the Sixers’ current situation. Seerat Sohi then joins Logan to discuss the current state of the women’s tourney with Juju out and how women’s basketball can keep capitalizing on the current crop of talented players (1:09). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guests: Rasheed Wallace and Seerat Sohi Producer/Audio: Clifford Augustin Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Folks, it's Jay Kyle Mann from The Ringer, and as always, basketball is so freaking, freaking good. It's so good, in fact, that the Ringer's NBA draft show is finally back just in time for a ramp up to June. We've got you covered every week as we take an in-depth look at who's got next for the NBA's future. We'll talk to rising and falling stocks of the best and the brightest prospects in the 2025 NBA draft class. From Cooper Flag to Dylan Harper, the VJ Edgecom, and more. tap in with me on the Ringer NBA draft show every Wednesday and make sure that you follow, subscribe, and hit us with those five-star ratings. What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdoch here. Roger Bell there. Philly Bull Cliff on the boards. Victoria on the video. We got a special guest in the building.

Rashid Wallace. I told him real quick off the top, though. I was going to talk shit about his chiefs because, you know, my ratings are going to go eight and nine this year. And that's damn near. championship. That's just like, you know, we beat y'all on Christmas Day last year and we about to go eight and nine this year. That's like, you feel me? That's like the equivalent of a championship or two. It's a banner worthy for the Raiders right now. So, you know, I'm about to talk my shit. So fuck the Chiefs. Hey, Sheet, how you doing, buddy? What's going on? How you doing, man? I miss you, man. Yeah, you know, my boy's going to be back in it. You know, the Eagles played a good game. Pigeons got us. But like I tell everybody in Philly, you know, they're like, oh man yeah we beat y'all ass this and there da da da da da yeah y'all won but y'all ain't do nothing but just

tied up and then it took it all four years to get back there so hold on hold on you know we have a philly boy on the fucking on the call right now and cliff as you know we usually don't do this till the end before we get to like the shits cliff do you have something to say about this this chief's um eagles conundrum that that is that is happening right now shee man how you from the city bro and you not reppping the Eagles. Number one, that's crazy work. Number two, it was belt the ass during this Super Bowl. So now you want to talk about some we evened it up. Bro, they ran down on your boy Mahomes, belt the ass, went down to the world's got spanked up, you know what I mean? And now you're talking about some we evening it up. Bro, we're going to run it back next year.

Well, well, all right. Let's stop right there. First of all, yeah, y'all didn't put belt the ass. It was foot to ass. All right. Number one, number two, you're not going to make it there this year. Y'all don't have that same team. And now, y'all, y'all schedule's a little bit harder than it was last year. Y'all ain't going to have no cake walk through the playoffs this year. Y'all, you know, y'all lucked up that the Lions lost because that should have been the NFC championship with y'all and the Lions.

Come on, you know what we got, though? We got Sequan Barkley, though. Who stopping that? That don't mean nothing. We stop that shit in the bowl. Yeah, who stopped? Who stopping Cooper DeGee from getting that pick? You know, hey, they was running down on y'all,

Pat Mahomes was running for his life in the bowl, bro. What's going to do it? Uncle the one position. We ain't have a left tackle, but we already, you know, we advised that we got a left tackle now, you know what I'm saying? So, hey, I'm good. And with nine times out of ten, what they're saying is we're going to draft the left tackle. I'm good.

That's all I need. That's all I need. All right. So we're going to see y'all in the bowl next year? We're going to run it back. No, y'all not going. You're not going. to ask.

Y'all not going. We're going. Y'all not going. We're a thousand percent going. You crazy as hell. Hey, yo, y'all need to start doing drug testing for this show or something. Like, for real. Like, hey, man, this cat bonked his head or something.

He's concussed back there. Some shit, you know. Man, talking that, they're going back in that shit. Hey, shit. That's cool. Because all I know is this is this going to be one in one in the writers' chief's season series this year. I'm putting that out there. Anyways, um.

Nobody takes that match. match up serious anyway. That's why we got our Christmas president 2023, sir. I've never seen someone in the islands this mad. Roger Bell live from the Cayman Islands with his bird shirt. He just cursed out three of his kids.

No, no, no. That's not cursing out. That's lovingly parenting, bro. I didn't tell you once. I can't be telling you three times, bro. If I set the president at home, how are they going to succeed when they get out in the real world? You know what I mean? She's like, hey, if I'm asking you

do shit three times. We got a problem. We got a problem. All right. Let's get to the sheds, man. We have a, what they call a custom segment, branded segment here. So let me do the branded intro. Welcome to Keep It Simple. A little segment about how simple things are good things. Brought to you by Patroned Tequila. No sweeteners, no extracts, no artificial coloring, no secrets, just 100% additive-free tequila. And in our keeping it's a simple segment, Raj is impressed. We're going to talk about a team near and dear to Sheed's heart, the Detroit Pistons,

who've taken everybody by storm. Last time we had you on the Pod Sheed, you had some words for your pistons. You were quite disappointed. Granted, they were terrible last time you were on. What have you thought about the pistons and how far can they go? They're a five seed right now. Yeah, they're five seed.

they're doing, they're playing well. J.B. got them balling right now. I ain't even going to hold you real tall. But I don't know, man. I mean, I don't know whether to believe it or is it just the situation because it ain't like the East that's really stacked. You know what I'm saying? Well, we got two good teams in the East.

It's Boston and Milwaukee. So it's like, shit, everybody else who make the playoffs is, it's fun. It's fair game. So I'm like, all right. But them cats, man, they're playing good. Cates playing well. Jay Doran's playing well. He's, I think he's top five in the league with double doubles or something like that.

But no, the guys are playing well. J.B's got that foot to the gas and they're moving. At what point do you, for a team like this, like, what are your expectations going into a postseason of this magnitude, right? Are you playing with house money? Are you just like how are you trying to figure out at this point of a trajectory for a team like this? Well, with them making the playoffs and they actually have a good team to where depending on who they match up with, they might be able to, you know, get that first playoff win or two. And I think for that team, that will be huge because for them and the non-success that they've had,

you know, over the years, we've fallen short of the playoffs or it's not even a question they're going to make the playoffs and this and that. So now, I would kind of sort of say, yeah, they kind of sort of playing with house money. You know, nobody's expecting them to win. Nobody's expecting them to do what they've been doing. But I think they're going to surprise somebody. You know, they're going to get a couple of things, depending on, like I said, depending on who they match up against in that first round. Raza, they have the Pacers right now if the postseason started today. we talked with Ben a couple of weeks ago about them potentially playing against the Knicks

and the matchup of, you know, the matchup there and how that would be advantageous for the Pistons. How do you feel them stacking up against the Pacers going into the postseason, if it were to end the day? Like, what do you think about what they can do? I think that would be a good matchup. That'll be a pretty good series right there. You know, you got Halliburton. Halliburton's good. And, you know, that'll be a good match.

up with him and Kate. You know, you got Miles Turner. He's a solid big man down there for Indy. You know, he does what he's supposed to do. Get them double-double. That'll be a good matchup with him and Jay Darn. I think overall, I really would have to favor just a little bit. The needle was pointing just a little bit towards Indiana with that series because, you know,

they've been there. You know, they've been in the playoffs and the Pistons are trying to get to where they want. Even though, you know, Indiana didn't get too far, but they still got farther than the pistons and that's what they're trying to do. Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think that the, you know, I think style, you know, the old saying that styles make fights also. I think it's a Pacers, like, this is going to be a game that's going to be dictated on who can control the tempo or that. Like, who gets who playing in their wheelhouse in terms of tempo for more of the games in the series, I think that's

going to be a big factor in that. But I would lean towards Indiana too just because of what she said. Like, they got a little bit more experience, a couple more cats that have been through those battles. But don't get it twisted. Like Detroit, going back to the original question that you asked, she, like, playing with house money is a real free and thing. Like, you can really get out there in a way that there's no pressure. And we talking about playoff sheet.

You know from game to game, the pendulum of pressure swings, like, dramatically. You could feel like you're out of this. You're about to go on vacation. You get one win. And now you feel like you could win a championship. Like, they're not going to be dealing with those swings of emotion because they're just, you know, kind of free and happy to be there. So they could be very dangerous, but I would lean towards the Pacers.

Yeah. I feel you. What do we want to see? I'll start with Rise on this and go to sheet. What do we want to see from Cade in this postseason, at least for us, just for the first few games, what do you want to see from him? And what would solicit good growth from him in your eyes? I just think consistency for him, if you hop out into the playoffs this year and you are looking, you know, like yourself from the regular season, it would be at a perfect world. he takes it up a notch, right?

Like the two greats take it up a level in the playoffs. But even if you don't and you were to just not have a precipitous drop in play, I think you're cooking, right? Because now you've got a cat that's taking one step throughout the regular season, boom. Step two is taking that same production level. And when teams can really scout for you and dig in on what you're doing, it's not affecting your efficiency or your effectiveness. If he can do that, you know, maybe squeeze a game or two out that they weren't supposed to win

and he's the reason they do down the stretch. I mean, that's pie in the sky. But I would honestly say just coming out and being as consistent in the postseason as he's been in the regular season, that would be a great step in growth for him in the franchise. What was your first, she, what was your first postseason series? Like, you played against the Lakers in 97. What was, what was that like for you just getting used to a different game? It's exactly how you see it on TV. So, you know, being a fan of the NBA.

when I was growing up and, you know, the Sixers and all that stuff, watching a playoff game, you see the atmosphere. Like, watching the TV, like, oh, it's just the atmosphere. It's just thicker.

Each shot means more. And, man, when I got to the playoffs for that first time in 97, when I was with the Blazers, yo, I felt it. I seen it. You know, it's like,

once you're there, you're like, damn, it's a little bit different today. Like, shit. Like, Katz ain't joking. around as much, you know, everybody more focused in with the team meetings and, you know, in the layup line and all that shit. So I'm like, all right, this is what it is.

And then when that, when that ball go up, it's totally different. You know, you sit there and you think like, all right, I just got to make sure that I do what I'm supposed to do. So in terms of that, you can't turn a ball over. It's less turnovers than a playoffs. It's less dumb-ass shots in the playoffs. And, of course, I didn't figure all of this out. until shit,

that probably that second time in the playoffs. You know, that year after, that second year I made the playoffs. So once I knew that, and then, you know, listening to my guy,

Uncle Cliffie, Cliff Robinson, like, all right. And I've seen, I just seen it with him. You know, watching him play when they

played the Bulls in the championship. And then I'm in the locker room with him now, like I can see that playoff experience. I can see that, that playoff difference, regular season over.

That's why they always say regular season over, playoff and zero zero. I just add to that. Like, she'd always say, as crazy as it sounds, like when you hit that playoff, you hit the playoff, you get off the bus. I mean, you can smell the popcorn popping. Like, all the heights gets,

like all of the senses get heightened a little bit, bro. Like, you just feel it in that way. It's a weird kind of dynamic, man. And you're right, the belts get tightened, right? Like, we don't have as many loose possessions. We don't have that random, you know, heat check. I need that bucket because we're operating in the margins.

You know, in a lot of these theories when it's coming down to, you know, a couple field goal points or an extra three made here and there and stuff like that. And it is for people who for people who don't like lock in all the time, there's a real adjustment period. But for dudes who usually are pretty locked in and detail oriented, they usually have pretty much the same level of success. Now it takes a different mindset to like turn it up in the playoffs. but like good pros usually are fine going into the playoffs. Cats to get a little kind of, you know, up and down with their habits. Like they could have a little drop off in the playoffs because to your point, like, this is assignment-based basketball, bro.

Like, because it's such a chess match of strategy. Like, we can't have somebody out there blowing this assignment five times tonight, my boy, like you, we give you one. And if you can't get it right, we got to go to the next cat. We don't have a time for it. Yep. Yeah, everything. You was like fish out of water going to the postseason, though, right?

Like, it was, that's, so you needed that mindset more than anything, right? Because you were just 10 day and then going right into the postseason with the 60s. The best thing that ever happened to me was, like, I didn't have a full season to, like, to really develop any kind of habit. So the only thing I knew was postseason off the rip. Like, I attribute that to why I was always better in the postseason for the most part, like, because. I ain't really, that was my only introductory to NBA basketball was like this heightened sense of awareness at all eyes on AI and Blue and DeKembe and like, you know, I was first row to that for three rounds of basketball before they even threw me in the game. And I just cut my teeth. I cut my teeth doing that.

So like that's kind of what I knew, you know? Rashid, like what is your relationship with the pistons now? Like I know you've played for a number of teams, but the pistons and the Blazers tend to stick out, at least for me when I see your career. But, like, how do you, how do you, are you extended family? Like, where, where do the Pistons rank on, like, the teams that you played for? I know you want to chip with them, obviously. But, like, what is your relationship with them? Well, with the guys from that team, we still talk, you know,

we've been involved in group chats and all that since shit, probably 0405. So them group chats are still going with that, you know, the same guys from that team. as far as now it's not too good now I like the players you know a lot of those kids are my guys from Nike camp or just from other little basketball catch

so I support the actual players but I just got beef myself with front office shit and it's I don't know for me I don't know what can be made positive out of it

so But then again, it's not my job to figure that shit out, neither. Do you feel like Sheed, you have a tighter bond with those cats that you won championships with? Or do you have a tight bond with just, you know, the same level of bond with cats on the trailblazers and other situations? Or do you feel like those championship runs bonded you guys in a way that other teams couldn't really do that? Oh, yeah, definitely it gave us that lifelong bond when we did win. but, you know, I've always had good teammates throughout my career. You know, I'm blessed and thankful for that.

I've never gotten to no beef with any of my teammates, you know, no locker room fights or none of that shit. So I was blessed for that. But I play with a great, great handful of guys, you know, on both teams, the Pistons, with the Blazers, even in Boston. You know, for that one year I was there playing with a great group of guys. And, you know, you develop that friendship, you know, until this day, yeah, I still talk with TA. I still talk with E-house, Eddie House.

You know, I still talk with Kev, you know, and so big baby. And those relationships would never go away, you know, because for that, what, eight months, you know, we were brothers, eight, nine months, we were brothers. And it was all out there on that court. We had to be in unison in order for us to get some victory. So, I mean, I've always been blessed to have good teammates. So that's one thing I can say. positive about my career and elite.

Well, you brought up, like, the bond that you have with the Celtics, which is really interesting, because, again, it was a very quick time, right? And you also play with other teams for quick stretches. I mean, infamously, the Hawks. You played also with the Knicks as well for, I believe, a season. But, like, what is the difference between, like, having the relationship that you would have with Boston? Like, what is the team dynamic to where you can get close to a group? like that for eight months as opposed to another team like maybe the Knicks or another team that

you kind of just passed through and maybe it wasn't as tight. Why do you think Boston was such a tight-knit group for you, even though it was just a short stretch? Well, truthfully, I think Boston and New York were. We were tight-knit groups. And I'm going to go ahead and dedicate that to veterans. You know, on that Boston team, it was a lot of veterans, you know, myself, KG, Paul, Ray, Eddie House was the vet, you know, T.A.

And then it also equates over on that court because it's like, all right, with me being a little older shit, I know I'm not as fast. So I'm like, I'm going to let Youngboy go ahead and run that rebound down or something like that. And the same thing with the Knicks. You know, we had a veteran team up there as well. You know, myself, J. Kid, Mello, Kurt Thomas, Marcus Camby, Kenby, Kenyon. you know, we had a nice little squad. But those wasn't vets, bro.

Y'all were, those, you, that's an old-head squad there, boy. That's old-hands squad. Effectually, not real talk, that's an old-head squad. I like that. Yeah, for real. And, like, that was up until, I think, a couple years ago when the Knicks got Jay Brunson, that was the first time that they beat more games than we did. You know, I think that year we had either won 53 or 55 games with that team.

Nick's tape, Nick's tape. Yeah, that Nick's tape. I always felt like the teams that you had, you know, the best bonds and she just talked about vets. I felt like the reason, amongst a lot of reasons why vets are so important, you know, like teaching people the ropes and just, you know, helping people indoctrinate themselves into what being a pro is and all the reasons that vets are good. They have a level of communication that's been worked on so that they can organize and get things going. You know what I mean?

Like, I found when I was with the Sixers and I had, you know, Blue and and, and, and, uh, Ken Bay and we had George Lynch and Teahill and, you know, and even when I got to the Dallas with like Mike Finn and Nick Van Exel and Ways, like all of those dudes were able to like bring you along with them, you know, take, take you out to dinner, uh, you know, as a young cat, like, without a lot of experience. experience in these cities and stuff like that, you can kind of get lost. You're left to your own devices. You're just trying to figure out what's going on. Those older heads bring you along with them. So you, show you where we're supposed to be. Hey, don't be over there. You don't want to be

there. Like, come rock with us. We'll go to dinner, have a couple glasses of wine. Like, those type of things on teams that that vets do and communicate the kind of messaging of where we're going to be tonight as a group and how we're going to act and how we're going to move. That becomes really important to the bonding and the chemistry of the team, you know. And they help like, like, and in playoffs and big games, you know, and a vets make it easier for their younger players. You know, I've seen a lot of things that the vets did when I was younger that I did when I became a vet, you know, like, so let's say you, your rookie contract is up, right? And so this is a big year for you.

But like, all right, when I'm out there, if you out there with me, it's like, all right, I'm going to go ahead. The play might be for me, but I'm going to go ahead and kick that shit to you, you know, for the jump shot, you know, just try to boost you. your numbers up so you can get some bread. And then it's also vice versa. You know, when you're that young guy and you've been in the league for a couple years and you know like, all right, my vet, he up for, you know, that new bread.

So I got to make sure he gets this new bread. And it's the same thing. You know, you feed the vet and you try to do all the things that you can do to help them get that money because at the end of the day, shit, no matter who getting paid, but we all got to get this win. So we all got to be on the same page for that. And that was keep it simple. Brought to you by Patron.

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Give all of that in, Cliff. All of it. It's terrible. That's fine. It's fine. It's been a long time, bro. I'm at a morning. Coral Gables, Florida. All that shit in. Coral Gables, Florida. Hey, man, you know what? Fuck you. How about that? You know, it's early in the morning. There ain't nobody out here in fucking paradise. You know, having practice cursing. Let me just say this. I'm sure none of y'all care. But, like, this is not all, this is not easy. This ain't all funny in games, bro.

It's been a long time since I was day drinking for four days in a row, bro. That shit is kicking my ass. Oh, shit. That shit is kicking my ass, sheed. I tried to watch the NCAA games last night. I was, I was, I woke up and every, all eyes are on me, knocked out on the couch, 9 o'clock. This day drinking ain't no punk.

Yeah, man. You age 20 years old and all-star weekend anymore, bro. It's not the same. Hey, that's why I stopped drinking. Like, only thing I drink now is I drink beer and sake. I can't drink liquor no more. Just for that same. reason you said, Raj. It's like you wake up, your body hurting. All that shit. I'm like,

oh, man. Like you played a game, shit. With the ice bucket. Hey, yo, pass in the ice bucket. Like, wait a lot. I just had three shots. Well, yo, not for nothing. Like, when I was younger, because we've been here on vacation before, the sun did not affect me the way it does now. Like, being in the ocean, all of that shit just stabs a 49-year-old body in a way that it did not. So, I'm doing this for y'all. I'm thugging through this. I appreciate it, brother. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fandil.

It's the final stretch of the NBA season and the playoff picture is changing by the minute. Every three-pointer or fourth quarter comeback means that much more. And with live betting on Fandle, you can make the playoff picture a little prettier. So whether you're looking to ride with a hot shooter or think a team is due for a run,

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I think I'm going to take the under on Jimmy points. Why? Because I just have a gut feeling. Maverick Snicks. I predict that Anthony Davis will play in that game. Grizzlies Jazz, going to take the over on that. Cavaliers Trailblazers is going to take the under on that. Thunder King is going to take the over,

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See terms at sportsbook. Fandul.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit R.G. help.com. Okay, we have breaking news, guys. Breaking news. The Memphis Grizzlies announced that they have parted ways with head coach Taylor Jenkins.

Right before the playoffs. Damn. Yes. Y'all couldn't wait off a couple more of much shit. That's what I'm saying. That's pretty big. That's pretty big. Yeah.

Let's process this together. Let's process this together. The Grizzlies are now fifth in the Western Conference right now. They seem to be doing solid at this point, right? Obviously, there are questions about the Memphis Grizzlies. I'm working on Cliff to, like, scour social media to see a reason why this is going on. But this seems like from what we have right now. No, something, something happened.

Something happened. There's no way that this happens any other reason, right? Yeah, I'm sorry. Like, this might not be good podcasting that you hit me like with something. That doesn't. I didn't know. Like that doesn't literally just came in the chat. Let's look through this really quickly.

Well, here's my thing. So with it being, yeah, that's what I'm trying to look on now. to ESPN site. But my thing is, okay, if you fire in your coach right now, like you said, weeks before the playoffs, yo, who are you going to get to be the intern coach? Because who's to say that them cats like the assistant coach? You know what I'm saying? So it's going to be tough for them.

This is unprecedented, isn't it? Can it either? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. Does anybody remember this shit ever happening? Like with 10 days left in the season, with a mid-packed playoff team? Yeah. No. I'm going to read the statement really.

quickly from the Memphis Grizzlies. It's pretty vague, but I'll read it nonetheless. The Memphis Grizzlies today announced that they have parted ways with head coach Taylor Jenkins. I'm genuinely appreciative of Taylor's contributions to the team in this city over the past six seasons, said Grizzlies president and GM, Zach Climman. This was a difficult decision given the consistent and tangible development of our players and the overall success of Taylor's leadership, I wish Taylor's the very best going forward. Wow. It still makes zero sense. Yeah, something. I'm with you, Raj. Something happened. Something happened in-house.

Yeah, like big, like big she, like, because what people don't know is there's a lot of disagreements. There's a lot of shit going on behind closed doors with a coach and the GM where they don't see eye to eye and they can disagree. But for the greater good, they figure that shit out and do, and work in their respective lanes towards his championship. When you say you're going to fire a cat 72 games in who's like in what, their fourth or fifth place. Like something went down. I don't know what happened, but something went down. Either something went down with the organization or like with job or some shit. Yeah, something happened.

How do you even move forward though? You got 10 games left in the season. Like, how do you even, there's processes that are put in place from a list? Like, you know, administratively it's fucked up to like, to fire a coach this late in the season. Granted, that's if you're not a playoff team. But if you are a playoff team, like the closest thing that I remember this happening to was when George Carl became the coach of the Kings way back when like midseason. But the Kings weren't good at that point. Exactly.

They're still trying to rebuild. This is just, and even that was hard to implement processes on the fly over the last six weeks of the season. This, you're theoretically trying to win a championship. I just don't get the logic other than if something the fairies happen, right? Like, I don't have to. yeah bro look it's going to come out George Carl

yeah I mean you look I'm trying to think about I think Terry Porter was moved that was that midway through a season when Alvin Gentry took over like there there are times when shit happens like that I mean Doc and Adrian Griffin like that happens

Tony for the Lakers yeah but all of that is in a different category than a team sitting in the position that the Grizzlies are and at this point in the season, do you know how difficult, do you know how difficult it would be for somebody to take the reins of that? Like, with 10 games left in the season

and steward that team into the playoffs, like, that's just a wide, that's wild. To fire somebody right now is, is, that is wild. Hell of a shake-up. I don't, I just can't, I don't know what the ramifications of this is, even for the off-season. I mean, we had Howard Beck,

who said that, you know, Can I even say it anymore, Roger? I don't know. Howard might be scared for me to even say this. Yeah, go ahead and get you and Howard aggregated. Just leave my name out. During the live show, me, Raja, and Howard talked about how Jha could be on the move this summer. Now, just go ahead and say Java.

Just say Java rant will be moved this summer. I mean, I don't know. What does that do for it? I don't know. I don't even know what that means. Does that mean that Jaws going to be moved? I have no idea, dude. Like, I have no idea what any of this means.

That, again, I'm, this is kind of flabbergassing. I've never seen that. Like, I've never seen somebody get moved. I can't remember an instance where it happened. I don't know of a circumstance in a locker room. She, you've, I just keep saying this because it just keeps coming to mind. I've been in some, some workplace environments that, that weren't necessarily toxic, but you could have a, you could have some real blowups.

And, and two days later, cooler heads prevail. And you're like, all right, man, fuck it. Let's go. We got to get right. we got shit to do. Like, so when you, when you're telling me that we can't, we can't get that done, we can't come back to the table and say we got 10 games left and I have to make this move right now.

I can't imagine what happened. Yeah, it was something. Hey, maybe you try to talk to the owner wife or some shit. I don't know. But that's what, that's what it seems like it might happen, you know, his daughter or something like that for, for this firing to be this immediate. And like you said, with 10 games left, yo, like, that's, Nine.

Nine games. It just discombobobulates your whole theory from the year because now what? Yeah. And you know players are fucked up about this, right? Because players are all about routine, right? Especially going into an environment where routine is the most important thing. Who are they matched up against right now if it started today? Let me see.

They would be playing against the Lakers. They are at a virtual tie right now with the Lakers. Yeah, that would be a good matchup. But you got to have your coach going in. to that though. Especially when you're going up against LeBron and like what JJ Reddick has been as a head coach, right? Like you can't go with an interim

in that stage. He's trying to put up a new process. Like that's whoever remember when we're talking about how the Rockets for better or worse, or fair or unfair, are the team that people are looking at? Like I would see right now, I'm trying to circle to Memphis Grizzlies. Like see if I can go play up against them with

and see if I can get them in the first round. Yeah. Because with all the shit that's on on it. Do you guys do that sheet? Yeah. Rajah, like, where you guys just circle a team and be like, yo, if we get this team or like, if we can just position right here, let's go, let's go get them. Hell yeah, you're supposed to.

You know, like, and especially if it's, and don't let some shit happen with like the star player and the coach. Oh, yeah, I'm bringing that shit up right there on the floor. Like, yo, like, damn. What's you saying? Like, damn, dog. Like, you can't, you can't live. The coach ain't going to let you shoot.

You know, you can't play. This and that. Man, fuck you, she, man. Yeah, but fuck that coach, man. I'm like, man, that's the same thing I would be saying. Fuck that coach. Still. What's the most diabolical way, though, she that you have gotten to somebody's head that way.

What is the most diabolical way that you can share? I don't know. I didn't lie. I didn't mainly, mainly doing the playoffs, you know, and you got that guy that's coming off the bench. He ain't played all year. And the other guy, other forward center might be in a little bit of foul trouble. He ain't played all year.

He comes in the game. And the coach was like, look, going there, I need you to be that wildfire, that firepacker, da-da-da-da-da-da. And he wanted to come in the air with all the wild crazy shit. Hey, my man, calm all that down. No, we ain't, I know you're excited to be in the game, but calm all that down. Huh, take this with you.

I take that with you, you know what I'm saying? Just going back to the bench with all that wild shit. But, no, you just have fun out there. And my main thing, when I did talk shit to people, it was about them. You know, I ain't say nothing. about, you know, no guys' moms or wives, kids. None of that, you know, that's crossing the line right there.

When I'm busting your ass, I'm talking about you. Who's the top five trash talkers that you've had that you've been with? Not been with, but it's like played up against. For sure, GP. In them Seattle Sonic Days up there at Key Arena, GP for sure. Ticket, KG, he's a, he's, He's a shit talker. Who else?

Who's a heavy shit talk? Oh, we made Bondi somewhat of a shit talker. So when he had his breakout games against the Lakers, and we was like, man, you see what you did against Kobe? Like, you know, Kobe, the best guard out here. And now tonight you're playing again so-and-so, man, boss his ass, go at him. Next thing you know, Bondi out there talking his shit. Like, let's try to get this little man off of me.

Lay up and all of this. that. So it's fun, though. But like I said, you know, you keep it to the game. You know, you don't make it personal to the point. Like I said, you're talking about a man's family or something like that. That's too far. Cliff, back. We have some Philly talk for you. I think he has some questions about Philly for you. Some more pigeon talk? Nah, come on, man. You're talking about the world champs, yo. Don't disrespect us. Yeah. The pigeon talking that pigeon coop up there called the stink. Damn.

Wow. You're talking about the Stink, the home of the champions, two-time Super Bowl champions. Anyways, yo, I've always wondered, I've always wondered, you're a Philly high school legend, Simon Gratz. Everybody know you should have with the Temple, but I mean, we were talking about that beforehand.

Should have played with John Chang. Tell us the reason why you didn't go to Temple Seed real quick before we go to the questions. 6 a.m. That was the main reason. I knew I wasn't disciplined enough to be up at no 5 o'clock, 515, 530 or whatever for 6 o'clock practice. And I would have been a freshman in college away from home? Nah, I knew I wasn't disciplined enough, real thought.

That's a life-changing wake-up call, bro. 6 a.m. practice is life-changing. That's earth-shaddering. Yeah. I got you. She, I'm going to need your top five. Hoobers out of Philly. I already know the one and two is probably going to be will and cold. But give me, you know what I mean? Give me those other three.

I'm going to go Cotino Mowbly Yeah Yeah Cat was a vicious left-handed shooting guard And we all grew up together Let me see

Outta Philly I think this guy was the best High School player That I have ever seen That I've ever played against And he was an NBA player in high school Because he's averaging like 40 in high school A guy by the name

Corrine Towns, Rad Rad might be the best high school player I have ever seen and I'm including myself in that. Let me see. Then, we got some old heads in there too. I don't know if some people won't be mad. You got one more spot.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And it's a lot of old heads that, you know, came up through Philly. For me, I would say for the fact of, for the sake of the conversation and people know, I would definitely have to say L-Train. Oh, yeah.

I know. Yon-A-N-Simmish, yeah, straight out of LaSalle. Actually, it's crazy. I grew up watching him. Went to a couple of LaSalle games, but I lived down the street from there, and my older brother was a big basketball net.

So I was heavy into LaSalle. Him, Dougie-O, you know, Randy Woods, like, like, that was a good squad. And train with a scoring dude, man. Hey, you talk about put that ball in a hole. One way or another, El-Train going to put that ball.

ball in the hole. Me and Cliff Pre-Paw were talking about like just public school basketball in general, right? Like, and just like how that shit is dying right now. Like, you cold. Yeah, there's a couple of public schools like out here that are like still popping and like it's still winning state titles

up in California. But like I, overall I get your point. Like it is, it is dead for the most part. But can you like can you give the inner, tell us the energy of like Philly Public School basketball when it was at his heyday and what that shit was like when you was playing? Oh, man, it was awesome.

And then look, here's the thing. I didn't even go to the public league with it. I'm going to go into the Sunny Hill League with it because that's where all the pub kids played at. You know what I'm saying? So it was like, let's say. You playing the Sunny Hills, Rajat-all? Nope.

No, okay. Go ahead. That Joan was dope. So they had it on every level. They had middle school, high school, college, and pro-am. And so let's say Northwest team, that's the team I played with. So now it's me. I play with Jerome Allen, Poo Allen, Tyrone Weeks, who I think is probably him and Malik Rose

is probably the best rebalances to come out of Philly. We were, we were, one to rival schools, but for that Sunny Hill League, we played together. And the same thing was with the other teams. You know, you had a North Philly team, a South Philly team. And so you had all these guys from the area playing on the Sunny Hill teams. And man, those were some great fucking game. down there at McGonicle. The summer is hot outside,

but in that gym it was even more hot because you're playing all day at that. So it's like, say, I'm playing against Roger at 2 o'clock. So our game going then, you know, at 3.30, low, you're playing against Cliff. Y'all team playing against each other. And it's like action-packed. So everybody

bought their own crowds and everything. You got the whole South Philly crowd and North Philly and all that, Delaware County. You know, it was rocking. And we had the Pellestra the Pellestra was a huge sporting event that was in Philadelphia

where a lot of the Big Five schools played and the Big Five in Philly is Drexel, Temple, LaSalle, Villanova and Penn. So they played like intermatches throughout their year, but mainly they played at the Pellestra,

which was, you know, University of Penn's campus in, man, hey, high school games, championship games? Wait, I've been at the Pellestra. I think I went there once for a shoot around, I think the Warriors was shooting around there.

And it was, it's old. Yeah, it's an old gym. They seem rocky in that gym. Yeah, like it's old. It's nice, man. But like, I mean that affectionately. Like, it looks like a castle or some shit. Like, it looks like you're playing in a Harry Potter movie or some shit.

Yeah, it's because of that Penn Campus, uh, day court. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Roger, did you have any, like, experience? Like, when you went to the Sixers, did you have any experience just with Philly basketball in general, like in the inner. Did you go to any of the games? Could you feel that energy when you were playing? Just the love for. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, we were

busy, but like I went to a lot of, I went to a lot of the St. Joe's games. They had Jemir and and Delante at the time, and I live right up the street. So I will pop down and go watch them play. Coach Martelli was coaching. We get out to Villanova once in a while, but I caught, I caught some big five games in the Pellestra just because they were, you know, those those, those, those transcended like the Philly area. People knew about those even in Florida. So I got to catch a couple of those as a fan, which was incredible. But just generally speaking, like this, the Sunny Hill League, my uncle, well, my mom's

from right outside of Philly. So my uncles were living in Philly at the time when I was younger. And I used to come up, hang out with them, and they go up to five star up at Robert Morris and like Honesdale and shit. Honesdale. Yeah, yeah. So I used to kick it in that little outskirts of Philly for a while and then go up. And I always wanted to play in the Sunny Hill.

Like I would go down, he'd take me down and we'd watch a couple games, but I never got to play because I wasn't really from the area and shit like that. But in terms of a fan base generally that consumes basketball, like the right way, there are few places that do it like Philly on the prep level. Like when, you know, you're not talking about your pro fan. You're just talking about your prep. We come out to support hours. We got a team. You got a team. summertime. Summers in Philly

Sheed, like I mean, Chicago's got great. They're places that have great summers, but summers in Philly will always hold a really near and dear place in my heart, but the people that turn out, the way they turn out to support the vibe around the hoops in Philly, it's really got a it's really got a place amongst the greats, like

in the U.S. straight up. Yeah. I was reading I was reading a book. I just finished it actually on Kobe over the last couple of weeks. And it was written, I think it was rolling and a Lazerby, I probably rest up his name, but he's a great author. But they were talking extensively about the Sunny Hill League and how much of a community,

how much it was the history behind it and how much it really was just a beacon for the community. Like Sunny Hill literally made it so like people off the streets. And like as a result, it did build it a lot of pros. But Jelly Bean was a big part of that at the beginning as well. And then into Kobe. Do you have any Sunny Hill Kobe story sheet? No, Kobe. Kobe came after me in Sunny Hill.

I'm a little bit older than him. So when he was, when he was playing with the Delaware County Lower Marion team, no, I was already gone. Okay. Was there a buzz there though when you was, like

about this dude like that was like, oh man, like he might be good and then you was like, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, it was definitely buzz going around the city because and then the thing about it, you know, one was just saying that he was a good player. And they couldn't, they couldn't find another Philly great or whatever.

So, you know, due to comparison with or whatever, because I would probably say he's probably one of the best shooting guards that come out of Philly. Yeah. And it was a lot of hype around him, you know, it was by all. And up there was the biggest question. Oh, where's he going to go to school at?

What is Villanova doing? You know, Villanova is down the street from his house and da-da-da-da-da. His pops went to LaSalle. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, everybody thought they had a little inside track with him. And he was like, I got something for all y'all y'all. And went straight to the lead. Yeah, yeah.

I wanted to have some MVP talk, but more of just like just some Yokin's talk. Because we talked about Yolkis last time you were on the program sheet. I know he's probably not going to win MVP for this season. Just, I mean, the injury, I think, like, really took him out of the running and just missing all these games. but as a big man, can you really put into perspective, like, this special type of season that we are seeing from him right now, just like in how hard it is to kind of put some of the stat lines out? Can you put like a meat and potatoes perspective of, like,

what he's doing right now as a big man in this modern game? I see him making a dent in the game the same way that Shaq did. You know, when Shaq first came to the league and, you know, he was breaking backboards, rims, the whole back supports and all of that stuff. But he was a figure. He was a monster.

And, you know, he had that force with him. And to me, with Joker, Joker, he's not necessarily as physical or monstrous as Shaq was, but the skill set is there. You know, he can pass, he can shoot, put it on the floor good enough to get to the basket. And he's, I think,

what makes him a great player for real, Real for real, in my opinion, is the fact that he's unselfish. You know, he's like, look, and I don't know him personally, never met him, but just from watching him play, you can see that it's like, all right, if they're trying to double me or, you know, they come there at me and I see my man, I'm going to zip that ball to him real quick. I'm not going to take that shot over a double team or nothing like that. You can see he's a team player.

And you don't see that too much in today's game because everybody is out for self. everybody want to jack up all the threes and shit but he mixes his game up that's what I like about him. He's not always going to stand out there on that wing to shoot them threes. No, hey, if you see that mismatcheting, I'm going to go ahead do the old school slow back down

and go ahead and get this bucket. What do you what do you think about what he's done over the last few weeks, Rajah? I mean, we haven't talked to you in a minute. I would love your opinion on it. What have you seen from him when he's played?

I mean, he's, I mean, I see what I see from him all the time, man. Like, he's just a, he's a, he's a, you know, a kind of a puppeteer out there, man. Like, he just, I mean, I don't know what you would call it. If you're like the Marionette doll, I guess it is the puppeteer. But, like, he has an ability to just move, move all the pieces with, like, what he does, right? And his master, I was talking in the kitchen the other, like, one of my buddies is on vacation when he's a basketball coach. And, like, all of our kids clearly hoop. and we were we were just kind of talking about it and he came up and him lebron luka i mean they're

guys like this where they when they move everything moves right because of how good they are but their mastery of the understanding you know of that uh so when you know i do this you know she's got to do that and you know a lot of a lot of players can play like one pass ahead in a sequence. So like I drew a big, I can hit that. Or I drew a big. The help is coming to take away my first read. So I'll go to the second read. Like Jokic plays three passes ahead. Like LeBron plays three and four passes ahead where you're like, how the fuck did, how the fuck would he make that pass? How would you even see that? Like the one they called Brooke Lopez the other night standing there wondering which way did he go? Which way did he go? Like he's just so far ahead.

in the sequences of how these pieces are moving in relation to him. Like, I don't know if I'm doing the description of it justice, but that's what it looks like to me. Like, he's going to move and everything else is going to move. And he's just way out in front of that, like the Matrix almost, right? And I mean, treat is correct. He, here's the deal. He looks like he's so lazy.

And I mean this affectionately. Like, like, I'm sure he's not lazy, but he looks lazy, right? And so. He looks like you after four days of day drinking. Damn right. But it's almost like he's like, man, I'd much rather let you guys do all this hard work and score the ball if I could just set you up to do that. But you know what I mean? Like that's his normal instinct is to just be like, man, if we can win a game and I can have 27 assists and she has 40, like I'm cool with that.

He's like, fine, I'll shoot this three, bro. Fine. I got it. I got five. His scoring is almost like out of necessity, right? Like it's like, all right, bro, I got to keep you honest. So I'll score a few buckets and I'm really good at that. But I'd much rather just like have 28 assists and then, you know, get up out of here.

So it's fun to watch. That's what's up. That sounds like a good life. Good work. And then, you know, you know, the other thing I would say about Joker, if you look at previous athletes who dominate their sport, man, they're in tip top condition. You know, they might be a little jacked up a little bit. Hey, yo, if somebody said to me a few years back looking at him that he's going to be the best player in the NBA,

I would be like, no way. Just looking at, you know, his body structure, like for me, and you know, this is a basketball turn and shit, y'all know it, he doesn't pass the eye test. No. He doesn't pass the eye test. But damn, hey, the ball can play, though. I ain't going to front. The board to play.

I can't wait to see them in a playoffs. Nuggets are just so interesting because they do have Yokets, but they also are perpetually bound to get tired in the second round. I wish that there was just a better supporting cast and better depth around him so he could have proper chances to win multiple titles. You know, he's like 30 now. So let me see. I had a couple more questions for you, and then we got ruined a week, and I'll get you out here.

But she and, Roger, I just saw this come down the pike. No, it's not no more Taylor Jenkins news. If I find that, we'll get some more. But the NBA will not keep the All-Star mini tournament for next season. They scrapped it. Good. Good, bad. So they even done it in the beginning.

Was this a big waste of time? Like, what do we feel about the forever changing of the All-Star format? Like what gives? What it says about the game is we're in trouble. You're coming up with all these gimmicks to try to please the fans because everybody just tired of watching these motherfuckers for 48 minutes to jack up threes. Like even cats that ain't supposed to be shooting three is jacking up three. Like, yo, that shit gets boring.

And number one, it takes away from the game because it don't take a skill set to shoot a You know what I'm saying? Anybody can shoot it. The worst man on the team can shoot it, no matter how ugly the jump shot is. Can you imagine if he played in today's game with Chuck Hayes' three-point shot would look like? That's going to be scary.

But that whole... That actually might be entertaining, no sheet. I don't know. Oh, it will. Look, I would rather watch that than that little mini-tour tournament or whatever they wanted to call it for the all-star game. But it's just all gimmicks.

look, to simplify the All-Star game to make it like it was, yo, all you got to do is get a couple people like, yo, look, are y'all out here joking? No, I'm serious and shit out here today. You know, the same shit that back in the day when Raja and I were playing, like the All-Star games we played in, yo, all that joking shit, and I'm going to just go ahead and let you do your fancy,

don't know, fuck out of here. Like the only freebies that from, if you look at it from the All-Star games back in the day, was like the fast break full-lived court pass. That was it. Other than that, no, cats is D-N-up. You know what I'm saying? I would say, I would say it was hard token defense.

You know, I'm not necessarily 100% going to give you the forearm shiver. You know, it's just give you some taps, let you know what I'm here, and we out here, we're playing. You know what I'm saying? It's like an organized game, organized scrimmage. But this shit, with that, it's gimmicks, man. And I think they had some success with the, what you call it,

the little, the skills drill? Yeah, now that's a successful drone. I like that. You know, whoever thought of that one, boom,

they hit it right on the money with that. But whoever thought of this last one, yo, they need to be fired or demoted. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of screams desperation, like just to add on to that.

Like, you're just searching. So it just feels like, I mean, we's talking about this is an all-star and I'll keep it at this, bro. but like I don't think it's the game itself.

It's just like the shit around it, man. Like I was talking to some players and it's like, well, you give us like 10 minutes to warm up. You get us out of routine on a Sunday. I think also whatever, everything you said, she was valid. But you get us out of our routine. We don't really. And then it's so much more corporatized. Now there's so many parties, bro.

Like you are, people want to get the fuck up out of the city by Sunday. Right. And so it's a lot of those things. But like, you don't make an environment. for a basketball game, how are you going to have a good basketball game? Exactly. Well, look, but look, though, like, let's be, let's keep it a buck. I mean, I never played in an All-Star game.

So, like, I appreciate you throwing me in their sheet about All-Star games when we played, but I ain't ever play no damn off-star game. I did go to one as a three-point contestant. There were always a bunch of parties around All-Star weekend. That was always a thing, right? Everybody had their mapped out idea of what they wanted to go and get into. You had much less time to recover and recuperate from your All-Star weekend, like, responsibilities back then.

Now you've got the All-Star weekend. And then most cats get to go on a little mini vacay out there. I'm with Sheed in that, like, how, if you're the league and you've accommodated dudes saying, hey, we don't have enough time off. Like, this is, this is too much. You know, our bodies need the rest. And you've said, all right, we'll stretch it for you guys and give you more rest. And the product gets worse.

Like, what the fuck are we doing? Like, I'm going to give you all the time off. you wanted and you and you still aren't and you're going to play even less hard than you played before. That's crazy work. So like it does take, you know, I'm not, I'm not mad. I'm not, I'm not the old duel right now, the old curmudgeon. Like I really don't care quite frankly. But if you wanted to see a better product, it's on the dudes playing in the game.

The older one specifically to go out there and say, I want a better product. You know who had that spirit last year, not for nothing? Wembe. Yes. Wemby was on that shit. Like fuck y'all. I come from a place and a mindset where I don't know how they go like 20%. So I'm going to go 80%.

And then it's up to everybody else to match that. But they need a few people doing that. I, e. Sean Taylor in the Pro Bowl. Yes, sir. Knock it. I love that. We out here, though. I love it.

It's like, like you said, Raj, you know, the product is getting worse. It's the threes and Kaz not really being amazing of their craft, you know. It's just like, look, I'm just getting this money. I'm good. Fuck everything else. Yeah. Sheed, what did you, your hip-hop head, what did you think about being in the fake way

to the Kendrick Drake v? Oh, that shit was funny. Hey, look, when I first saw it, my man sent it to me. He's like, he's like, damn, fam. He's like, you sign on this Drake shit? You giving them sound bites? I'm like, what you're talking about?

And he sent me the little joint. and yeah, it had me in the front. I was cracking the fuck up, yo. That shit was funny. What did he say? Like, you ain't no round twos or something like that? Or we'll see you in it. What was your quote in the, that you shared?

Oh, no, it was the time when I said to guarantee the win. I said, y'all put it on the front page, back page, middle of the page. We will win game, too. Yeah, that worked out for y'all. I don't think that but necessarily worked out for Drake. And, yeah, he just, he just needed to go ahead and leave that boy alone, man. He need to go ahead and leave the, but look, Drake, when he's rapping and singing, like, all right, you know, you're doing your career. But, yo, battling, that's not you, dog.

You didn't grow up with that. That's not you. And right now you owe for two. Like, no, pushing T shut him up real fast. And now, you know, Kendry shut him up. I just want to say this. He wanted to come back at Kendra after that. I love this Philly Eurasia right now.

He did. He's one and two. Okay. let's at least give the man his credit. I know he got meek, but like, we can't, we got it. I know we did. And I know Philly is like rocking with meek,

and I understand that. I'm just saying, that wasn't no real battle. To me, that was more, more hype. That was over radio songs. You know, when Drake ain't on a radio, all that shit ain't being played on a radio, I don't know. I don't know about them bars, because,

and then on the other thing, shit, he got too many ghost writers. He's got too many ghost writers. Yeah, yeah. One is enough. Can I ask a question to you two, though? Like just real tough, before we get out of here, when we're talking about beefs, have you, you've seen, obviously, the friend of the show, Stephen A. Smith's beef with LeBron James. We've been watching it.

Let's do it. Let's do it. We've been watching this, right? My case kind of hit me to it. I didn't even know what was going on. What do we think about that? First of all, I love you, Roger. The, the growth right here, buddy.

Let's go. Let's go. What I think about it, first of all, I think it's just sad all the way around. Like, what are we doing here? You know, like, I feel like this could have been, this is a two-week news cycle. That could have been a phone call, literally, right? Like, like, Brian Win Horses Catchers Strays, right? Like, for no reason. And, like, Brian's a nice guy. He's been on the pod. There was no reason for that. There was no reason for that, right? And then, like, you know, I rocked with Stephen A, but damn, dog. Like, he went on every single show to talk about this man LeBron, telling you that he didn't want to talk about, right? And I think that, like, it's kind of, I'll just say this from a media standpoint, right? Like, when that happens, and I'm curious to get She's point of view, but when that stuff happens from a media perspective,

it messes up the relationship between the media, between players like Sheed and Uraja and people like myself who aren't necessarily like, because who aren't necessarily like in the mix like this, but the face of the media will be a Stephen A. Smith or a Skip Bayliss whom people don't like, and they take it out on us who are trying to tell a story and who are not really trying to get out here and do clickbait shit, right?

Like we're not trying to do all that stuff. And that messes up our job. So on one hand, it's entertaining. And I did watch all the Stephen A's responses. And I did watch LeBron's, That's entertaining. But on the other side, I'm just like, damn, man. Like, I don't want to be cast into that part of media because I'm not.

And it is unfair to people like me who are trying to do the behind the scenes job. That's all my thing with it. Those are my thoughts. Sheet, what are your thoughts? How it started was, to me, it was okay. And what I mean by that is, look, he was talking about Brony. But in Brunney and Big Brum, came in and, you know, defending his son, all right, cool, I get that.

But what Big Brown also has to understand is Brony signed his NBA contract. And in this NBA contract, when he signed it, he became fair game at a lot of media of people out there, you know what I'm saying, to target him. You know, it's part of it. So I think, I think, in my opinion, Brown was wrong for that part. but I also understand him coming from the father perspective of it. Now, yeah, Stephen A, probably shouldn't have said the whole part, like, as a father, as a black father. Okay, lead that out.

You know what I'm saying? Just he might have gone a little too far with it right there. So, in me and my opinion, and that first one, both of them, you know, made a little mistake. But like you said, for this shit to keep going on for two weeks and then, Stephen A, like, oh, man, if it's, if it would have came to it, I would have swung on him. And then you got people showing the meme with Stephen A trying to box and shit. Like, yo, I'm telling me, this, this shit is hilarious. It's hilarious.

But, yeah, it's, I do agree with what you said, because there are some reporters who, quote, unquote, are the face of the media. And that can fuck it up for, you know, more local media guys. You know what I'm saying? Because now you're going at this star and shit, I got to talk to him to get, you know, my shit back here to the editor. And now he ain't going to talk because you're coming out here with this dumb shit. You know what I'm saying? So it's both of them just need to count down. And everybody just need to go ahead and move this shit out the way.

Stop trying to make so much out of it. Everywhere that Brian goes on the fucking, what's the one dude, the boy on ESPN, Pat McAfee Show. he was talking about it a little bit and you know that riled it back up you know i'm like man just let that shit die they ain't going to fight you know what's saying and it's just it's just the the player speaking up for his son and it's just the reporter doing his job selling wolf tickets yeah um okay cliff has been texting me he wants to come back on again he has to ask you a sixers question and we can get out of here he's like we have to ask about the sixers we have to do this go ahead clip.

She, let's keep it simple, dog. What the hell is wrong with the Sixers, yo? I know you got mad love for the Sixers. I know you've seen the team of disarray this year. They still might not get their pick if the lottery balls bounced the wrong way. I've been watching Cooper Flagg. I've been getting hype. You're asking for more misery, brother.

Yeah, like, we could be real disappointed right now. Let's go to Sixers, though. Sixth ain't shit right now, dog. And it started, to me, it started in the summer. Because first of all, if I just paid this dude, 250-something million, and your knee is already jacked up. No, you're not playing in the Olympics, dog. No, because you know why?

Because, number one, the Olympics ain't investing in you. So tell the Olympic committee, tell the OIC or IOC, whatever they call it, tell them to pay you $250 million for this time. No, he should have sat out. That way, your knees getting healthier. You got all summer, you know, rehab and getting stronger, doing the things you need to do with it. But he doesn't.

So now he's dragging this motherfucker. knee all through the fucking Olympics, dragging this knee all through motherfucking training camp and preseason. And then what fucks me up is how you're going to come out and say before the season even start, I'm not playing back-to-backs this year. Like, what? Like, you know what that does? That kills the morale of the team, don't?

Like, you're saying shit that you won't do before the season even starting. And then I'm mad at the fact I told, told people, yo, we should have want to have to have to Marr de Rosen. DeRosen. DeMar de Rosen fits Philly. You know what I'm saying?

Even though he is the L.A. kid, but he fits Philly. Just his whole demeanor, the way he plays, the midi and all that. He ain't out there trying to be pretty. And then when we got Paul George, I was like, all right,

we got Paul George. Like, let's see what he do. And then when they gave him all that bread, and then you ain't playing? You doing worse than what fucking Tobias Harris did? Oh, dog. No, that ain't sitting right. And now we fucking stuck.

You know what I'm saying? Because ain't nobody going to take even one of them bum-ass dudes right now. So we fucking stuck. And then I feel bad for Nick Nurse. You know what I'm saying? Because here it is. And I think he's a pretty good coach. But now the shit ain't fair to him because we ain't got no fucking big, no scoring big.

You know, we got some backup centers. They're doing their job. They're trying to play. You know, my man, Drey Drummond is there too. He's trying to do his thing. But, you know, our backups are NBA. you know, and B, when he's balling down there on the blocks and he's not trying to be KD out there

and how are you going to be seven foot one or two? You're trying to hezzy get cast a hezny crossover and all that. Man, if you don't get your big ass down there on that fucking block and score this rock dog where they can't stop you and get this motherfucking game, man. But yeah, I'm so pissed with the fixings this year. And then here's the thing.

Like I said, I can't even put it on the organization or the coaches. It's two dudes. it's two dudes that set it all for us. And it's like, I'm like, I don't know what the hell is going on. Why? Why?

And then you got the young, and I love Maxie. I love the way Maxie called him out. Yeah. Oh, man, yeah. Hey, yo, how are you going to be the captain? You know, you're the star player to team. But then you don't go come to me and you show up late to practice.

We know you're not practicing. So, damn, you got to be there. for damn rehab. Everybody else because now you're messing this stuff up because the trainer's dealing with you during practice when he should be keeping his eye on, you know, the other guys out there on the floor. You know, you got to get to practice early, dog,

or you won't have to stay after. Like, damn, you. That sucks when it's your star player, though, right? Oh, man, that's just frustrating with this dude. So you know what's going to happen, in my opinion. I think the fans, we're sick of it, man. we're about to run this dude out of Philly, though. I could see it.

I could see it because already, already they don't go out. You know what I'm saying? Like back in the day, you know, when AI was there, you know, blue, you know, y'all cats would step out to the little club or something. You know, a little bar, a little drinky drink. Oh, they ain't doing that now. And he better not come out. I'm not sure where he lives at, but it's obviously in a safe area,

neighborhood where, oh, yeah, we still love you with Joel. do it, guy. No, you go down there where he had. Like, you fucking weak. Yeah. You go in the hood downtown somewhere.

Yo, they're going to let Joel and B. He's going to hear it. Let him go to the gas station. Let him go to a restaurant or some shit. You know, downtown Philly. Let him hit a TGI Fridays.

Man, if he go to Club Fridays, he's going to hear it. He going to hear it. Like, cats in the city just fed up with the shit. And then So you're in your progression. You got MVP, you know what I'm saying?

So now the next step is to take your team to the conference finals. Okay, boom, after the conference finals, that next year it'll be in the finals. You know, that same progression that we saw with Boston. That's what I wanted. We were on the way. And then this motherfucker wants to play in the Olympics and all this other shit like dog. First, because first he, remember, he came into the league dragging the knee. I think he didn't play in his what his whole rookie season or like his first his first two years and then a portion of the third year and he had to mess up foot it wasn't a knee it was a foot okay with the foot okay well it came in dragging it still it's like dog come on man sit your ass down let that knee heel up and then boom let's go out here and win some games talk to paul george look i'm gonna need you to go ahead and you know get some of that la hula in you dog like man from la i'm sorry he ain't

from L.A. Where you're from? You're from Palmdale. That's a Palmdale. That's Central California. I tried to claim that as L.A., but L.A. was like rejected. Like, get the fuck out of here.

That ain't. I tried. Okay. See, learn something new every day. So my fault, L.A. I mean to put that on y'all. My fault. My fault.

What a great. Thank you, Cliff for that. Thank you, she. Just a great. You know, she just like, that was everything I've been thinking for the last I don't even know how long this season I've been going on for It's just

Really misery in the flesh It's just It's just It's just you know It's great Even when you guys With Super Bowls You know

This shit ain't You know Snowballs still get thrown At Santa Hell yeah That was All right That was a phenomenal

Another phenomenal episode With Shee You know we gonna have you on again Brother You know You know what it is You know we got Mad love for you

Rashid Motherfucking Wallace Hello there We are back This is Logan Murdoch I'm here With Siritt Sohi It's been a long time

How you been? It's been too long Logan It's been too long It's nice to hear your voice Over these podcast It's great to hear your voice as well Sirit

I don't know where that came from But you know We're here to talk You're just getting silly You're getting silly The intrusive stuff is coming out You're talking to a friend I know this is also

You're unmasking This is also Technically Towards the end of this podcast that's coming out whenever it comes out and it's like the loopy part of it. So, you know, I'm fresh off a plane. I'm tired. I think this is going to be a great episode.

Me too. I'm excited. Let's do it. You're liable to say anything right now. Good thing we have editors. Anyway, I wanted to get you on the program for a long time, but also specifically, you have a great show called the Ringer WMBA show with the great game. And, you know, it's been a while.

We haven't talked W outside of the chat and like outside of like our two-hour phone conversation. So I figured we bring one of those phone conversations here. And let's just go through grief and heartbreak and, and detachment and all of that. It's been a big week. Juju, Juju Wachins, tour her ACL earlier this week. And it was very sad.

I tried to vent to you. You said you were writing. I was like fine. Cool. But it got me to think. a lot about where we are an anointment of W stars at this point, right? Where I felt like Juju was becoming the next one right before our eyes in this tournament, right?

And also by extension of this regular season, right? She beats Yukon on national television. She has a signature win. She beats UCLA. She is uplifting a historically great program at USC. but a program that had fallen on hard times. 40 years of just kind of not being very important. It was kind of like,

they had the moniker-back-to-it-show-Miller. As fictional as that was, it still was an era of USC basketball, right? Like, 11 basketball was a USC era. That was probably they won a national championship, right? Yeah, they had that. Anyway, so. In the public imagination.

Right, and that's all that matters. So I'm just, but it made me curious of like, We're coming off the heels of Caitlin Clark and what that phenomenon was. And it felt like something was building here. Where are, that leads to my question, where are we with the future of the W superstar? And how does Juju Wacken's injury affect that trajectory right now? Well, I think, I think let's start with just what Juju is, what she means. and, you know, just the star power that she was starting to develop.

Like you mentioned those games against Yukon, against UCLA, especially. I think in this era of college basketball, the transfer portal, and everything just being chaotic, mega conferences, all of that. The fact that Juju Watkins just hated UCLA is a thing that really, really endeared her to me, and I think to other fans, because I think that's what we all want to feel. Everybody just wants to feel like the athletes care just as much as the fans do about these things that, you know, frankly, a lot of athletes, like, are kind of, they've become almost like over professionalized and like, oh, every game's the same.

Juju's not like that. Juju was like, there's no way you can't tell me that, like, I'd be remiss to say if I didn't get up a little bit more for these types of rivalry games, she's talking before, how about how she wants it to feel like football, then she goes and has these games that, like, you know, not only on the court performance-wise live up to that, but she's also jawing with the crowd. She's doing the fours down. She's kind of becoming a showman. right in front of our eyes.

And I think that's what is part of what makes this so sad is this was going to be the portion of the season where the most amount of people would have gotten to see Juju and potentially in an elite eight rematch against Paige Becker's, Yukon, potentially UCLA down the line in the final four for like a fourth matchup. We just don't get any of that anymore. And there was a lot of energy being poured into her.

I think if there's one thing that I could say, exists in women's basketball now that maybe didn't before is there's an infrastructure to build a superstar when there wasn't necessarily always that, right? So if you have the juice, if you have all those things, a lot of weight can be put behind you and there has been, you know, Nike and Donald, like all these sponsors, she's Gatorade. Like, we're going to be watching the rest of the tournament and Juju is going to be the headliner in these ads. She's the voiceover for like even the Gatorade Cooper Flag ad. You have people asking, oh, who's more popular Cooper Flag or Juju Walking?

And Google Trends says it's Juju Watkins, by the way. But that's just part of, you know, like she was also going to, she was going to not only be able to kind of get her star out there, but also bring in new fans that were probably thinking, oh, yeah, like, I should check out Juju Watkins. Like, I've seen her on billboards all over L.A. And maybe you haven't tuned into a game yet. Maybe you've seen highlights.

And that's kind of what's been lost. So I don't know who exactly feels in that vacuum. I will say this particular year, I think that, The star power has been pretty flattened out. I don't think it's really been like a juju and page only sort of thing. You look at the ratings for some of these games, LSU versus South Carolina, South Carolina versus Texas, Notre Dame versus Yukon, Notre Dame versus USC,

you do see that players like Hannah Hidalgo, players like in the South Carolina dynasty, obviously, Blasier Johnson, Madison Booker, they are definitely a draw. I think that as much as people wanted juju to be the person or thought juju would be the person that like single-handedly took the torch from kately clark i don't really think that's what it's been i think it's been you know everybody has sort of been able to rise up and we have more pockets of kind of niche stardom building up right so it's not i think let's say if this happened to katelyn clark last year right it would be of of like a

defa-con one emergency as far as you know are you saying that juju injury wasn't a defecon one emergency wasn't my household I think it's, I mean, it was, but I would say it's DefCon 5. I would say it was DefCon 5, you know, like alerts are definitely, you know, you got, you got a, you got to, it's going to hurt. It's definitely going to hurt. It sucks for her. It sucks for USC. It sucks for the tournament.

It definitely takes some of the air out of it. Like there's absolutely no denying that. I think that's part of what all of us have been kind of grieving as well, just like waiting for this moment. But I do think that there is space for somebody else to emerge. And I think something like, we can talk about, we talk about. on the phone too, right? Like, we kind of need that to be organic. I think that's kind of like the next step here.

Yeah. No. Well, in my mind, like, I thought that the juju, I mean, I do still believe that there was a large level of organic star power with juju, right? Like, even, because stars are all about storylines. Storylines build stars. And she had the perfect one, especially, you know, you put it in your piece recently. about how she goes to South Carolina and sees Asia Wilson statue. It's like, you know what, I'm going to build this legacy back home.

It's like Asia did. But I'm going to be like her, but in a different way, right? She has the fact that she grew up in what or played basketball and her game grew up in Watts, right? And then she goes and plays for USC. I told you that Monica Wright propaganda actually works. It worked recruiting-wise. It may not have put any real wins for USC in the, actual one column, but it was just a big

foreshadow that's all I'm saying. I will say when you talk about the power of her emerging stardom before the season, the one person that Juju wanted to see come to a game was Sinai A latin. And then lo and behold, the first UCLA game was there. Like, she's got the juice like that, you know? She's, she's manifesting

her dreams. See, she does, right? And like, you know, I have in my, in my group chats, hashtag Boo Boo for Juju, shout out Jemie, talking about like all the teams that want to potentially tank in the W just to get Juju on the roster, right? Like, it does seem like that there was a future Toronto tempo, Juju Watkins.

I was thinking more like a goal to say Valky's. I think if you just bring me out. You guys are going to be too good, you know? I just think you guys are going to too good. See what we're doing here? Okay. Anyways, but I think that's the power of it, right? But I do, what do you think is the better approach, right?

Because last year it was the Kailen Clark effect felt like if I'm going to go into a music record label type comparison. It's like Taylor Swift as the lead artist on a label that pays for everything else, right? But like when you go see, you go into Taylor Swift's algorithm. I don't know what's in Taylor Swift's algorithm, but for the purpose of this argument, you see like an angel Reese, right? You see these other types of players. This is a different type of vacuum, right?

Where you do, and I think this is as a cause of the Caitlin Clark effect, a year later. But like, what is better for, is it good that it goes in waves or is it better if it just continues to be in this sort of context that we see this year, we have just multiple different stars that haven't taken the mantle yet? I mean, I think you always want the big star, right? Like, this is a sport that deifies the individual. So to be able to have that is always going to be better than having, as much as we talk about parity, right? Like, even if you look at the NBA right now. The NBA has never been more competitive, never had more parity, and what has made it more, what has finally drawn, like a person like myself back in. Luka getting traded to the Lakers

and LeBron James beefing with Stephen A. Like that's just, that's just how it goes. That's how we are. We want a big star. But like the, like, if I wanted to sing the praises of like where women's basketball is at right now, as far as, you know, gameplay goes, I can easily do that. I don't think the game has ever looked or, you know, been more aesthetically pleasing. I don't think the, the skill level, like the development that these athletes are getting from a young age, the resources that are being poured into them have ever been better. You have players like Hannah Hidalgo who are absolutely electric to watch. We can definitely go down that way, and that's important, right?

And it's great that that still exists so that, you know, in this juju situation, we're still going to have a great tournament. I'm still very excited for the Sweet 16 and the elite eight. But that's not what we're, like, we're having a conversation about what's going to appeal to America. At large, you kind of, you need that headliner. And I think Jujia was a headliner. I do too. I think, you know, I had thought about this, you know, throughout this, throughout our conversation

yesterday, just what the differences are between, you know, her and Caitlin in terms of star power. Obviously, race played a part in the differences and how both were marketed in general, right? Or just a scene by America. But one other thing that I thought about in the media comparison. that came to mind. I would have asked you this question the night that Juju got injured, but you know, you were busy writing. And I really wanted to ask. Do we need, like, if we need to talk about that, we can, you know, like, did you feel like I wasn't there for you in a moment of need? Because you've mentioned it twice now. Yeah, man. A lot of people were locked in,

man, a lot of, it wasn't just you. I'm disappointed a lot of people that just weren't locked into the juju pain that I was going through because it happened, like just. I was extremely locked into it. I just had to create content. Yeah, no, no. weren't locked into the group chat part of the discussion. I think I forgot. I was at a game or something and I saw it. I think I was in where I, oh, where I just came back from that I won't speak on right now. But I was at a game and I saw the screenshot and I'm like, who do I text? I texted everybody. But apparently all my W. Hommies was working. So, you know, I guess that's what it is. Anyway, the point being is after I got over the heartbreak of no one hitting me back. The abandonment on top of the grief. It's stuff. After that happened, I immediately thought of Paige Beggers. And I thought about, it's basically a carbon copy of what happened with her, right? And just to think about what the recovery timeline would be and what this will ultimately do for Juju's legacy, right? Because I feel like in two years we're going to be, you know, how we're, I think part of the, a large

part of the W community and the women's basketball community is rooting for Paige Becker's right now to win a national title that may or may not have gotten robbed from her because she got injured, right? I feel like we're going to have that similar galvanizing effect with juju, right? Like, how do you feel like the return is going to be? Well, definitely. I think people are going to be rooting for it. Anytime somebody has a devastating injury like that, it definitely, you know, creates organic sympathy for sure. And if she, like, it also, I guess it depends on how she comes back, too. But when I also think about the page injury.

Maybe that is also kind of what created space for the Caitlin Clark effect as well. Maybe, look, it probably would have happened anyway, right? But I think like that's when we bring it back to like the organic part of this. And like even the differences in the similarities between the two of them, I think the one thing that gets really underrated about the Caitlin Clark thing is she didn't go to Yukon, you know? Like she did not go to a place that was a star making vehicle.

the most that she had going for her as a freshman and a sophomore is that she played on the Big Ten network. So some of the, like a lot of games would have been on television for her that weren't for, you know, players playing in other networks or like the PAC 12 that doesn't exist anymore, right? That was kind of it though. Like, I think people discovered Caitlin just kind of by watching her on TV, you know, and being like, oh, who the hell is that, right? And I think that's part of what made it such a title wave by the time it was at its peak. And she has a game that's like, that's perfect for the modern game and also just she is a showman as well. Yeah, yeah. And I think her and Juju share that similarity.

I think we exist in a different context in women's basketball now where I don't think a rise is ever going to feel as organic as that anymore because there are just so many more resources put behind it. I think there's so many more brands to understand the benefits of investing in the big stars in women's basketball. So I just don't think that type of thing can ever happen. Again, it's almost like, I talked about it on the pod last week too, where it's almost like, like, let's say a tsunami comes and ravages a whole city, right? Even if after that there is an even bigger tsunami, it's not going to make the same impact because everything's already destroyed. Like, everything that was from like before is just inherently not the same anymore.

Now, maybe that's not the best metaphor because, you know, I'm saying that. Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty morbid, dude. It's a little bit morbid, but, you know, whatever a positive title wave is, it just, it, it completely shifted the landscape. And I don't think that's ever going to be possible again, but it does sort of, it does benefit an athlete like Juju. And it does benefit, like, the people who come after her as well. Like, we might see an Alia Chavez who just, uh, the other one of her.

I love her. You know what's fascinating to me about that? What's that? So there was a huge NIL fight for her. right like i think really what it came down to was budget for like how much schools were willing to put into her n iL right and oklahoma ended up being willing to commit the most i think lsu uh lsu was like the n il school by the way lsu was like ah you're a little bit too expensive sorry we got it we got a duck out of this one like texas was in the mix also a big n i l school texas tech kind of in the

mix just because like that's where she's from she's from lovec um Oklahoma an cc school, just being willing to put in so much of their NIL budget for a women's basketball player, I think is fascinating. Yeah. No, it's, I'm very curious to see, I was talking to Sue Byrd a couple years ago, she was on the pod, but I was just thinking about just like, we were talking about, I believe, just the influx of cash into the women's game in general, right? Specifically in college.

And I feel like, and we're talking about how college is uniquely. positioned for the women's game to really make waves financially, right? Because in a weird way, it feels like the restrictions on going pro too early actually benefit the women's game. Because we'll see what happens in the new CBA with the W and things like that. But like you can make so much, there's no argument for a juju or for a page to come out early, because they're going to make way more money at school, right? Like, Juja's going to make M's, a lot of M's. He's going to make more base whatever salary you want to call it in college this year

in the W, and we'll see how the salaries change. But I am curious about, like, how this arms race is going to continue to grow. And does it even have an incentive for women's basketball players, you know, like how the guys are like, no, we want to, we wanted one and done. And we actually would, if you would let us come out of high school, if you would let us. I don't feel like the women have that much of an incentive because they're actually making more money in college than they would in their professionally. Well, I think that applies to the top of the top, right? Even when we talk about all this NIL money that's coming in as well, I think that, you know, in Aliyev Chavez or if Juju was in this recruiting class is definitely somebody who can command those dollars.

But for everybody else, they're still competing with like football. they're still competing with men's basketball as well to get those deals. But maybe to your point, if as a college program you're looking at, you know, like the future of your investments, knowing that a woman's basketball player is going to be there for four years versus a men's basketball player being only there for one year, maybe you're thinking, oh, you know what, let's actually just invest in the person who's actually going to be here long term. So I can see that just kind of having like a positive feedback loop effect too. but I do think that it really, it applies to the biggest stars, but then in some ways it actually kind of doesn't because like, I think that Juju is going to get a lot of money endorsement wise, whether she's in the WNBA or whether she's in college. Maybe it's not a big enough difference for her to want to jump, and I think that's kind of the point you're making.

I think it's great for college sports. I think it's, I mean, it kind of allows women's basketball to exist in this sort of sweet spot where like the rest of the college sports world is shifting so much and people are feeling like it's become a little bit too professionalized while still not really having like professional rules and standards and salary caps and contracts and all that stuff in place yet. Women's basketball is in this sweet spot where it's definitely benefiting from all that stuff. But because you have the four years, you still have the pageantry of college basketball

and the identities and the fans being able to make all those connections and stuff, right? So I think it's a good thing. It's a good thing. And you also have to consider that like salaries are definitely going to go up. I see salaries probably going up like three to four times three to four X like in this new CBA. That's still not going to be generational. I'm going to have like fuck you. I don't need a college education money.

You know, it's great. It's going to be good money, but it's not going to be like I don't want to. Like, you know, like it's not the same as like the NBA where you make so much money on your rookie contract. If you invest it well, it's never going to matter what your education was. Yeah. No, it's, it's, W money is like, I mean, high level W money right. now. I was like, oh, man, I got a really good job. This is cool. Right. Yeah. I never thought that I get here at this age, but like we're here.

Like the current max is 250. I think they could get it up to a mill. Sure. But even that, man, that's a vet minimum in the in the, that's what I'm saying. It's like, that's not like, it's going to take a minute for. And I and I said, we have Monica McNett on over the summer. And I posed a question to her just about the W. Like, W is what? 30, almost 30 years in, um, in existence, right? Yeah, 28. If you look at the like how much the W is advanced relative to its NBA counterpart at the same time and it's, and I know there's a different like, it's a different media landscape and all these things. But if you look at how the W advanced in 28 years versus how the NBA advanced in 28 years, like the W is on a fast track right now. Like,

I don't know what the W is going to be, but it's, I, I do feel. like that isn't been being said enough that 28 years in for a league and having this level of success is pretty good. I think that it's kind of in it's like people people call it like the bird magic era with Caitlin and Angel right. And I think it's I think it's a little I think I'm a little overblown. I think it is too. I think it's 10 years behind that. I think Caitlin is almost like a Pete Maravitch type of character who came in like from college basketball and you know brought in this fan base and you know, I mean, Pete didn't

And also, I got to say this, I do have to say this though, also from the Angel Reese side, I think Angel Reese has to be a little bit better to be the Magic Johnson of this equation. I just, I want to see what she does this season. Me too. Me too. She looks good on arrival. But I don't think her game is good enough to warrant

that comparison. Yeah, well, it's also, it's a tough comparison with Caitlin, right? Like, that's what makes it the most difficult. Also, I don't like the comparisons of like Larry bird and magic just because one is black and one is white. I feel like we really shoehorn that a lot. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And it plays into a narrative that I think everybody should be trying to get away from, if anything. Yeah. Yeah. I think Angel is, I think she's excellent.

I think she's really good. She's a great defender. I think that, you know, she looked great in unrivaled, especially towards the end. I'm curious to see what kind of season that she has. She would have been the rookie of the year. She would have been one of the better rookies of the year in recent memory, if not for this generational talent that came in that she is now kind of getting compared to for the rest of her life, right? Like, it's just kind of, even if she beat. Who she beat? Who she did beat, who she did beat. But it's kind of interesting, like, because there's one thing I think about with Juju too is we're in a different place with women's basketball now, where every time Juju has a good game or a bad game, there are going to be people on social media either

comparing her to Caitlin Clark denigrating her or saying, wow, she's better than Caitlin Clark. And I think that for somebody who is 19 years old, I don't think women's basketball has ever seen somebody who actually has to live in the shadow of somebody else's greatness. You know? Like, this is a first.

At least on a mainstream level. On a mainstream level, okay, because I can think of a couple like, I know you can think of a couple examples, like, you know, from the real times, right? But for it to really genuinely be part of somebody's public narrative, like, Like they, those two are connected.

Like she did live under the, I feel like Candice Parker did live under the shadow of Lisa Leslie, but like it wasn't outright like said. Right. It was like, oh, okay. Yeah. Let's see what she does. Yeah. But I'm sorry, you were making a point.

I apologize. No, no, no. That's kind of it. Like it's just, it's just she lit. They live in connection narrative wise. Even though one is four years younger, they've never played against each other. They won't play against each other for years.

there's no like there I guess there's a conference connection now that you you see USC is in the big 10 that's no reason I know I don't I don't know that's part of the professionalization of all this stuff too is like as soon as the money came in they're like you know what we're doing next westward expansion it would be like if it will be like if it will be like if it will be like if uh if the LeBron like Steph rivalry like happened way too early like in this right because like I don't know. It's, it's, it'll, it's, it's,

that robbery is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is the there is the argument though that, like, with, with, with W and how they are right now is just to, man, we talk about the professionalization of the W, like, a lot of this stuff might be a little bit more too manufactured than, at least there's an argument out there. I don't necessarily believe that, because I do think there's a rabid fan base for the W, but there is that argument that, you know, a lot of these stars are becoming, and I put this in air quote, manufactured as opposed to like happening for happening organically in the way that it. I don't think the media allows things to happen organically in the WNBA as much as they should.

I think that's part of it. And I think that's part of why there was kind of a disconnect with like how much fans connected to Caitlin versus the media at first. And I think you saw it with like the way that Angel Reese was like shoehorned in as a rival. I think I felt like there was almost. like this desperation to create a narrative that came from, I think, a place of insecurity in a lot of ways, like just needing to hang on to this special thing that happened in hopes that it catapults the rest of the league into a new stratosphere. Now, look, that happened anyway.

But I think that we kind of, I also think, I don't think it's like fully an old WNBA media thing. It's also like people like myself who are new into it, kind of taking frameworks that we understand from the NBA world and trying to impose them onto the WNBA, which is where you get like the bird magic stuff. Like part of that is trying to create a reference point for new fans, which I think is important. Like I don't feel bad about making NBA WNBA comparisons because I just think that that's a really easy way. What about the WNBA comparisons of like every time like, um, every time Sabrina does something like compared to a man like she's compared to Steph, right?

Like the first thing that when she hit the shot in the finals, I guess Minnesota, the first thing that we heard was the staff comparisons. Or we hear. And it goes back to a reference point, but also like I feel like that shields, you know, women from,

you know, their own autonomy that they deserve. On some level, it's a failure of creativity, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a mix of both, right?

I think if you're a new fan and like you've been watching the NBA for a decade, it's really natural for you to come. in and that be your frame of reference. But at the same time, yeah, I think we also kind of just need to get better at figuring out how to write and cover women's athletes without needing to lean on those crutches as well. And I think that we will as well. I think that like we have. But in the meantime, I think that leaning on that kind of takes away from the ability

to just kind of let things like develop. as they are, you know? Yeah, no. We don't know how to organically do anything anymore. We have to, like, will it to happen. Yeah, I have to ask chat GPT about everything. Yeah, that's true. I don't even know how to use that thing.

But anyways, uh, CIRIT. It was a blast having you on. We were going to have CIRIT on again. We had to just talk about Juju for 30 minutes, but we're going to have you on in a few weeks to, we're going to do a home at home, right? Preview? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. WMBA show, right? Yeah. We're going to preview the WMBA season. All right. That sounds good. All right, cool. Must be 21 years and older and president's select states for Kansas in

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