The Ringer NBA Show - Reacting to the Hawks Coaching Change, and No Power Rankings | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

Justin, Tjarks, and Rob discuss the Hawks firing Lloyd Pierce and installing Nate McMillan as interim head coach (01:00). Later, they debate their No Power Rankings, breaking down some of the most bleak franchises in the league this season (20:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Jonathan Tjarks, and Rob Mahoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

They don't have guests. They have contestants. Ten Questions with Kyle Brandt is the perfect game show and talk show hybrid that you need. Check out 10 questions exclusively on Spotify. Hello and welcome to group chat, the ringer's weekly NBA group discussion where I say this respectfully, but I've dominated the matchup with Charks since I got to the league. I am Justin Varyer joining me today. That man, Jonathan Charks. Well, when you're the boss, I guess, right? You can dominate matchups. You can set it up how you want, you know, with the lineups.

This is kind of like the Obama Springsteen experience then. I'm the boss. Also joining us today, Rob Mahoney. What I would not give to watch Justin try to post up charks right now. It would be not pretty. I would always say my game is kind of like

a Chuck Hayes type. I was basically a back-to-the-basket point guard in the night. I was going to say, I figured you as a pick-and-pop kind of player. Not really. No shot. No shot whatsoever.

But you put me down low, man. I'm ready to just do a soft layup over somebody. Today we're going to talk about some, well, this is convenient. No power rankings is the theme of this podcast, which goes hand-to-hand with my particular game. We're going to run through some of the worst situations in the league today. But first, we're going to start off with a team that might actually be on this list. I'm curious to see who's on your guys' list.

but the Atlanta Hawks fired Lloyd Pierce yesterday after three years or two and a half more in Atlanta. Not really a surprise, especially to Pierce, who talked to the athletic, I believe, last week. It was basically like, yeah, Travis Schling is going to fire me. And I'm not going to be mad about it. But I think it's a, you know, it's a weird decision, especially considering some of the things the Hawks have gone through this year. Rob, what do you think about this one? Do you think there was merit to fire Pierce, or is he really not the guy to blame here? Well, I think the reason they're not going to be a part of our no power rankings is the reason

Pierce is getting fired, right? Like the fact that there are expectations around this team that they have conceivable talent, that they have players that, if healthy, at least, they would be able to put together. That's the reason he's getting fired. You know, this is the bill for all of their offseason spending coming due. The crummy part of that is that Pierce wasn't the one cutting those checks. and he's certainly not the one who's at fault for the fact that these guys have been injured. I mean, really, when you go down the list of all the players they added in the offseason,

those are all the guys who have been out. So this is really kind of a rerun of last year's team, but with Clint Capella, but with some of the guys who were in and out of the lineup last year as more mainstays, minus DeAndre Hunter, who's been so crucial. So it's kind of a tough break for me in terms of Pierce getting fired here. I don't know that I would put the blame at his feet. But when you're a disappointing team, that's the kind of pressure. that usually comes down.

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of the life of a coach in the NBA in a lot of ways. And so I've got to give a shout out to Rick Carlisle. So he's the president of the coach's association. And the running joke in like Mavs media circles is whenever a coach gets fired, you can always count on Carlisle to give the most glowing effusive praise imaginable

no matter what the situation is. He's always going to come out on the side of the coach. And when Pierce got fired, this was a new one. Carlisle said, in very large part to Lloyd, Georgia went from a Republican to a Democratic state. And not to say that

Lloyd Pierce didn't play a role in that, but I was just like, wow, I didn't realize he was that crucial to our political system. Rick Carlisle is shocked. He is shocked and odd about this situation. He's a shock not about every single coaching fire

that has happened under his watch as he's been later of this Coaches Association. I will say there is a lot of merit to what he's saying there. I did feel like Lloyd Pierce had made a significant contribution, not only to that team, but the community. He was very active. I think he was in charge of the racial justice coalition that they had formed there.

He played a big role. And you felt like he was coming to represent not only the team, but like that area, which is like a special thing that doesn't really happen these days because coaches just are so disposable. I think like there's only a couple that really are still kicking around from even like just a couple years ago. Carlisle is one of them. You always see the same graphic, right? It's Pop, it's Stevens, it's Carlisle, and it's Eric Spolstra. For that reason, I'm a little disappointed, but this seemed inevitable if only because the Hawks made no, you know, they didn't hide the fact that they were pushing for the

playoffs, and it can't really do much with this roster midseason considering all of the injuries they've incurred. The easy solution is to fire the coach here. But one thing I'm curious from your guy's perspective, like, Is that the easy answer here? Or do you think that Pierce, Rob, was like an actually a good coach who brought out the best in some of these guys? Well, before we even get to that, I don't want to walk past the community part of this too quickly just because I wonder sometimes if teams are going about this stuff backwards, if they're out thinking themselves in terms of, as you mentioned, Justin, this is a coach who had instilled himself within this community in terms of the political system, in terms of getting people registered to vote. making the hawks as itself a more political organization within this community,

that's the kind of thing that can take a coach six years, seven years, a decade to do, just because these guys, as we've mentioned, are transplants by nature. That is what their job is, as they're moving around. If you can have that kind of bond between a front-facing member of your organization and the city, I don't know that I would be the kind of person, if I were running an organization, to just throw that away over some injuries and some light disappointment. I think there are some things that the hawks were doing wrong that you could say, oh, well, if Trey Young isn't motivated to defend right now, some of that blame goes with Lloyd Pierce.

If we look a little disorganized in this way or that, if we're disappointing in crunch time situations, some of that blame goes with Lloyd Pierce. I just saw him as more of a coach that a team could grow with. And the problem here is the manner in which the hawks are operating and the expectations they have placed on themselves as an organization took away that. opportunity to grow. Took away any chance that Lloyd Pierce had to actually develop as a coach along with his team because they need to make the playoffs right now. I think that's a really good point about letting coaches develop with the team. And you can see that in some respects with Minnesota and Ryan Saunders where it's almost like the front office hires kind of the younger coach to grow

with the players knowing that, okay, I can always fire this guy down the road when it's time to start winning and blame him for all the losses before. So they're kind of putting this this no-win situation where, like, you really can only look at Pierce this season, right? Like, his first two seasons in Atlanta, there's nobody winning with those rosters. It's not going to happen. So it's pretty much like a 34-game sample full of injuries. But I think also, though, like what I think they're looking at with Pierce is probably the crunch time performance. Atlanta, I think, has blown 11 fourth quarter leads this season.

And they have one of the worst crunch time numbers in the league. I think they're number 29 net rating. and that probably goes back to Tray Young too. Well, I mean, Pierce is still young. I believe he's 44. I thought what was really enlightening in the same interview he gave to the athletic in which he admitted that he expected to be fired,

which if you actually read the interview, it does sound like he was talking more generally than saying like, I'm, you know, the axes hanging over me. Maybe he had some inclination, I'm sure, like after blowing the fourth quarter leads, as you mentioned, sharks, especially at that really ugly one against Cleveland.

Like, I'm sure, like, he felt the pressure and he also knew the city. situation they were in Atlanta this year where there was pretty clearly a mandate to make the playoffs. The one thing I thought was most enlightening when he was talking about just adjustments they were making. And I think the question was about like, you know, how do you incorporate some these young guys? How do you work with Okongwu? How do you get him involved? And like John Collins still need to figure things out. And he pointed to Klincapella as a guy who despite being a really good defender. And we've talked in the past about like what a destructive force has been for that

defense pretty much anchoring an otherwise pretty porous group, like Clinton was a guy who came from a system who would switch a lot. And we're asking him to do different things. We're asking him his specific words here, be a concept guy. And I thought that was really enlightening. That really spoke to how even the guys who are available, it's tough to really work with them and really try to find the best parts of them. But in the big picture sense, like it just seemed like, he was the easy person to let go because they can't really do much else. I think it brings me to the point whether or not Travis Schlenk is actually culpable here because as we're going through this, I know they've had injuries,

but even some of the guys he brought in in order to kind of stem the tide here a little bit, haven't performed all that well. Rondo and Gallo in particular have been pretty bad here. Do we think if we're like cutting up the blame pie, we're looking more at Schenck perhaps than Pierce? I think I'm looking at more bad injury luck, just because when DeAndre Hunter was healthy, this was basically a 500 team, maybe slightly better. When he and Capella have been on the floor together, this team has been good. This has been a good team. And so even sustaining all those injuries, even weathering them, this team should have been

good enough to win if they had all their bodies, but Bogdan Bogdanovich has barely played. And that's kind of your source of secondary offense in a lot of cases with this team. So, yeah, Gallo has been, I would say, especially on defense, really, really rough. He's finally had some good shooting games lately, which has helped. Rondo has not looked great. Anyaka Ankongwu, who had some injuries to start the season, but is also, at least Amai, just getting D&P CDD unless he has some injuries that haven't been disclosed. But that's kind of to be expected.

And, you know, to Charks's point about with these coaches and you can be kind of throwing out or at least putting the last few hawk seasons in a separate category, when does the clock really start for these guys? Because so many players on this team are in their first two or three seasons in the league are really just learning how to play NBA basketball. I don't know. To me, that's not even a schlank problem or Lloyd Pierce problem. That's a young team problem.

These are the growing pains that you go through if you're trying to gradually build into a playoff contender versus accelerate into it as if you just are deserving of that because you spend a lot of money. Yeah, and I feel like it's almost the GM wants to fire the coach because this is the time to do it, right? I wouldn't have the Hawks in my no power rankings.

I think this team has a lot of talent. So if you look at the numbers, when Capella Collins, Young, and Hunter have played together, they're plus 13 and 200 minutes. This is a team with a lot of young talent. That doesn't even count Cam Reddish and Kevin Hurder, both had some flashes. And I think if you're slank, you're saying,

okay, if I expect this team to do better this year and better next year, like, when's my window to fire Lloyd Pierce? My windows of fireman is right now. And I feel like whoever comes in for Pierce, whether it's Nate McMillan or a coach in the offseason, this is a great job. Like, whoever comes in next,

Pierce has had the groundwork for someone else to have a great run to start their time in Atlanta. Yeah, I think ultimately this falls at the fee of ownership. I mean, this is just the same situation is the process playing out for us. They invested in a full-down, like a tear-down and then a rebuild, and we're going to take this slowly and do all the right things.

They talked about their sports science and yada, yada, yada. We're going to accumulate assets. And then they just accelerated the process when they got tired of just waiting and things were looking a little uglier optically than perhaps they were waiting for. I think, though, if you're going to play devil's advocate, there are a couple things just in slanks like Ledger that probably don't look kindly upon him. obviously the Trey Young and Luca Donchish thing, which we don't really have to

go into detail though, but that is a giant stain on his resume. I do wonder if that's ultimately what's going to get him fired as simple as it is to say. It really probably will come down to that at some point. But there are some other things here that are a little spotty. We're talking about how they don't have enough

depth, and while some of the depth that they brought in this off season has, in fact, been the ones who have gotten injured. We're talking about Bogdan. Chris Don, I don't believe, has even played a game. Rajan Rondo has been hurt when he hasn't been really awful. But they did that specifically in order to build depth. And I think if Gallo isn't contributing in the games that he's been playing, I think that's a

really, it's a tough sell for Schenck in particular. O'Kongu not being able to show anything is also really bad. And then the John Collins situation. And maybe this is something they can suss out before the trade deadline. I mean, this is part of a bigger plan where they get rid of the coach and then, like, they figure out the Collins thing. But, you know, Collins is really pushing for a max contract. And it seems like that situation is going to be ugly no matter which way it turns out.

They're either going to have to overpay him or they're going to have to trade him. And I don't know. Like, there are a lot of situations here where you can point to and say that Schlenk hasn't been doing the best of jobs, even if perhaps the overarching problem is ownership. I would say, like, beyond the Lucas thing, which is, you know, we've taught him talk to death. The backup point guard thing is really ridiculous. So they've had three seasons with Trey and Trey in charge. And they've just never had even an average backup point guard. Like their offense is always dropping like 10 or 15 points.

So this year, I just mark on the ringer today with Trey on the floor, they're the number seven offense in the league without Trey their number 30. And it's just like it shouldn't be that hard to find a competent backup. And like Rondo, we all know Rondo is playoff Rondo. Like regular season Rondo has not been good in a long time. And you just got to have a good backup point guard. It's not that hard to find, and they just never had it. What do we think about Nate McMillan here?

So he's been around for a really long time. Is there anything to the idea that maybe whatever veteran know how he has here is going to have a positive effect on this team that maybe Pierce didn't? Rob, you know McMillan pretty well. Yeah, I mean, McMillan's a good coach. He's coached a lot of really solid defenses. The problem is it's hard to prop up a team when there are just liabilities all over the place. And some of that comes back to what we've been talking about with Trey. which in a roundabout way, I think, is the issue with him is he's gotten better at the things he was already good at.

He's escalating his game as a playmaker. He's clearly bumped up his scoring, especially from his rookie season over these last two years. But as a defender, as an offball player, I think is disinterested, border, you know, like disinterested ineffective, chalk it up however you want. He doesn't seem very engaged or very inclined to do those things to be involved in that way. can McMillan be the kind of coach who gets him motivated to participate in other aspects of the game that aren't a direct result of his creation with the ball? I don't know. That's a tough sell.

And beyond that, can he really make sense of a team that has all these pieces shuffling in and out with injury? I think he's in a position McMillan is to look better than Pierce did because he's going to get Bogdanovich back presumably after the All-Star break. Because some of these guys are going to be getting healthier. Hunter, I think is a longer-term thing.

We're going to wait and see with that. But at least just getting some healthy bodies back to balance out the second units, to put some better pieces around Trey. That's really half the battle, if not more than that, with this team. I really like the point about Trey off ball and defense. And I think whoever the long-term coach here, that's your number one priority, is can you get Trey to buy into those things? Does that have to happen through like natural processes in the playoffs with him losing to buy in?

Can you build that relationship enough to where you can calm out about that and say, we need you to change. This has to happen. And whoever that coach is, I think, is that's the number one priority going forward. Yeah, I mean, the defense is probably my biggest concern here. And you would hope that McMillan, considering his history in the league, would be able to maybe do a little bit more there. I mean, I think whoever was going to step into this job was going to have an advantage in that they are probably going to have a healthier roster than the first half of this season. But just going back to two, three years now,

we're under Pierce's regime here. The defense has been pretty ugly. You would think that with Trey and some of the other guys they have in this team, they could piece together enough on offense. But I think having a credible defense is probably going to be the difference between this team making, even the play-in game or not, which I guess brings us to the trade deadline. Anything you guys see in terms of like an easy move for them to make,

would you pull the trigger on a Collins deal? And if so, like what is the, this team need instead of him? Considering that the way they're gunning for the playoffs, can you even do that? You know, when Collins has been one of the most reliable players this season, it's, you know, you'd have to be getting back something in return, a player, you know, certainly a player in return. We're kind of tossing out the draft picks idea for a team with the Hawks priorities, someone

who's really consistent, really reliable, and who doesn't interfere positionally with guys like Hunter, with guys like Bogdanovich, with all these players you've painstakingly brought into your organization, I don't see a lot of really clean fits out there, which is part of the reason I've kind of been on the hang on to John Collins bent most of this season for that reason. It's tricky. It really is to find potential trade partners for him and the Hawks. Yeah, I mean, and the big thing like people were wondering what started this season was the fit between John Collins and Clint Capella.

And that's probably maybe the biggest plus and Pierce's kind of resume is how well they play together this season. They're two big men. I've really found a nice mix. When they're on the foregoder, they guard pretty well. Collins is facing the floor more, play more on the perimeter. I mean, it works. What they have with their top players works.

So to me, it's more about getting healthy than making a big trade if they're going to make the playoffs this season. The unfortunate thing about wanting to make the playoffs so quickly is in an ideal version of this season, I think the Hawks would be really developing Collins as a secondary ball handler. It would be a lot more him being put in positions to create. But given, again, given their priorities, He's given what they want to do on a nightly basis.

They're just not in a position to weather some particularly inefficient nights as he feels his way through a new job. And so you would love to see him groom that part of his game to become that kind of more all-around perimeter player. It's just not in the cards right now, given what they need to do. Right. I mean, worst case scenario, you just go into the offseason. If he gets a max deal from somebody else, you just match it and then potentially just like trade him eventually. That's not always like the easiest solution. because it means like getting someone to accept a MEC's contract via trade and to give up stuff

in addition to that. But, you know, I mean, just look at the Bogdan situation. The Kings gave him up for nothing. And while, you know, at the time, they're like, well, we're turning the page, yada, yada, yada. I don't think it was the best asset, you know, distribution. And they could really use something right now in order to make up for his absence. Let's take a quick break, though. And when we come back, we can talk about the Kings and perhaps some other teams that need

a little help this season. All right, let's talk about some more bad teams. We call this the no power rankings, which is a series we've done at times on the ringer.com. Looking at some of the worst situations in the league, which I think is a particularly good time to do so because there are some teams, my friends, who are just absolutely hitting rock bottom.

Let's do this. I want to come up with like a cumulative ranking here. So let's start from the bottom, or in this case, number four. five. I guess being good means you're at the bottom. Rob, make the case for your number five team on your list, and then we'll go around and probably five is the worst, one is the best. One is the bleakest. Five is the most promising relative to the power, the no power rankings. Right. I found this to be an exercise where there were kind of four teams I felt were pretty solidly the bottom four.

And the fifth spot to me is where things get tricky. And that's where I fell into the Kings here. And it's tricky because D'Aren Fox is an all-star caliber, all-star adjacent level player, which is more than some of these teams have. Tyrese Halliburton, we've spoken glowingly of him on this podcast repeatedly. I don't think we need to do that again. And then they have some potential trade pieces. There's potential for improvement here. And, I mean, frankly, there's some coaching upside here in terms of the fact that Luke Walton, I don't think, has done a very good job managing that team. So there's room for improvement. That said, they're in the Western Conference, which is brutal and uncompromising, at least in terms of getting to a playoff level.

And then you're in a place where I don't think that the guys that they need to trade will fetch all that much on the market. And that's where I get into this place with this team where can a team be both bleak and fun? Can they be like the trashy reality TV of the NBA, where I don't know how faith they give me in humanity to watch the Kings play? but they can be a really entertaining watch even for the next few seasons. They can slowly grind something out, build towards something. I just don't know what the way forward

looks like for Sacramento. So I didn't have Sacramento on my list. And that was in part because I tended to prioritize and by this I mean that they wouldn't be on this list. So they are too good in order to be on this list. Teams who actually had a star player

or multiple star players or players with star potential. I think that is the difference between a team that is like just bleak and a team that is just absolutely hopeless, bottom of the barrel, this really needs a strip down, tear down situation. And having Fox alone is one thing. But they also have Halliburton. This is a new front office. At the very least, you have Buddy Heald and Marvin Bagley to trade if you don't feel like they fit into your situation. I don't know.

I think if this was last year and this was the same front office, I would put them in this group. But at the very least, there are signs of hope that this could turn the page with a couple right decisions here and there. Rob, I'm curious if you have Cleveland's on your bottom five. I don't. That was my kind of five. Dilemma was Cleveland versus Sacramento. I think I compare those two a lot, and then I just look at it like, man, I would much rather have Fox and Halliburton than Sexton and Garland, right? Because these are both teams

building around two young guards. And I suspect the King's young guards are significantly better now and going forward. Well, let's kind of combine these conversations, because I think Cleveland is a good comparison point. To me, it's less a Sexton Garland conversation. And some of that's because I would say I'm probably pretty low on Darry's. Scarland overall. I think Colin Sexton has a real place. He's had a pretty strong season, even as Cleveland's run overall, has soured a little bit. But to me, it's less about that backcourt, which has been a negative 7.5 net rating for the Sexland duo over the course

this season. They've been aggressively sloppy with the ball as a team when that group is on the floor. It's really a bummer. I see it more as it's Sexton, it's Acorro, it's Jared Allen, and it's a healthy Larry Nance. And it's like, okay, if that's kind of the core of our team, how close are we? And trade-wise, am I more encouraged by trading Buddy Heald and Marvin Bagley? And we also should know for Sacramento,

Rishon Holmes is going to be a free agent who's either going to have to get paid or flipped or something. But do I like the trade returns for those kind of guys or a Kevin Love, for example, who we haven't really seen fit with this Cleveland team yet? So I had Cleveland F4 on my list. actually. I had them toggling between five and four,

and at the last second, I put them on four, in large part because of two things. One, there's now evidence that there have been a lot of people clashing with the front office. Kobe Altman in particular, Jason Lloyd wrote for The Athletic, a really good piece about how there's now this long history

of veterans in particular who have, like, over the past, like, two, three years even, just like come into contact with Altman. And that's LeBron, Lou, J.R. Smith, Kevin Love. Kevin Porter Jr. Andre Drummond. Now, Devil's Advocate would be a lot of those guys are veterans. This team was trying to turn the page. A lot of them were leftovers from the LeBron era and they probably didn't want to go along with the new regime and the new way of things are going. But then I would point to some of the issues that the team has had outside of just picking at the top of the draft. Like, I look at this team and it's been bad for now this is three years. And all I see are top lottery picks. Like where are the guys like,

Jechon Tate or just some of these guys on the fringes where you have all these roster spots why aren't you finding any sort of hidden gems? If anything, I look at a guy like Jordan Clarkson and I see how he's been completely reborn as this sixth man of the year

candidate in a different situation where just a couple years ago in Cleveland he was just a chucker and was completely unplayable. So to me there's like something organizationally going there which is why I would put them four. Justin, I would say it ultimately ties back to the star conversation. It's very hard to find role players

when there's not a role for them playing off an established number one guy. And that to me is why Cleveland is on my list is because I just, Texan's been very good this year. He's clearly a top level score, but I just don't think you can build a team around a 6-2 scoring guard,

really a good team. And I just don't see that number one star cornerstone player. and without that player, everything else is so in flux all the time. You're always having to make the perfect lineup, have five guys in together, it's just hard to make it work

sustainably without that foundation piece. Where do you have them on your list? I've got them at four. Actually, maybe three, sorry. I got them at three. Okay. The other thing I would point out is just bad contracts on this team.

That's another thing that I weighed really heavily. So Kevin Lobs still, after this season, has two-year-60 million. The Torian Prince contract isn't looking particularly good. That's next year it's going to be a $15 million contract, although it's an expiring. So you can never really tell whether that's a positive or a negative sometimes. The other thing is Chetty Osman, why did they sign him to a long-term deal? Was this just like because he had the fumes of like LeBron just like, you know, just the good vibes of being a

LeBron friend still like permeating from him that they felt like, oh, he has to be good. Like LeBron liked him. But he signed for two years plus a non-guaranteed year. So, There's a lot to kind of like sift through still in order to have the kind of like clean break they're hoping for with this younger core. You could really set your watch by every time LeBron plays against Chetty Osman and is asked about him, the time in which it takes him to say, that's my guy. That's my guy. Every time. I respect it.

LeBron's guys get paid. It's true. It's true. All right. Let's go to another team here. Charks, who did you have at five? I actually had Orlando. And my thought process with all of these things is

how long is it's going to take for this team to become like a high level team? How long is this rebuild? And I just remember with Orlando, they've hit a ceiling with this version of this team and they're going to have to start over pretty soon. And I don't know how many long-term building blocks they have that I really believe in other than Jonathan Isaac, who's just been hurt in his whole career, basically. So that's what worries me about them is like you might be looking at team

stuck at like 35, 40 wins and then starting over again at like 1520 in like two years. I actually have them at two. Ooh. And some of it, I think that's a great way to look at at charts in terms of how long is it going to take this team

to get back to a credible level. Sub question off of that, how many players on this team are going to be a part of that team? Like how many pieces you are really going to be involved in the next good magic team. It doesn't look like many. Because, I mean, it's post-injury Isaac.

It's post-injury Markell Fultz. It's, you know, Nicola Vujovitch, who's at a really good season. Who knows what happens with him long term. Aaron Gordon's going to be on an expiring contract next season if they don't trade him by the deadline. I don't know how all this sifts out in a way that leads to playoff caliber consistent basketball without a pretty long runaway attached to that. And that's a tough place to be. And I think it's really a result of them getting such a bad draw in terms of the timing

of some of these injuries where every time it looks like they're finally going to be able to at least get a look at their kind of weird, misfit team. Some guy gets pulled out of the lineup. Two guys get pulled out of the lineup. Right now, everybody's out of the lineup. So it's hard. It's hard to evaluate that team given those circumstances, but it's put them in a really unfavorable spot.

The Kem Birch-Mobamba just trade-off has become. like a nightly storyline for this team to the point where the few magic like Twitter followers I have or follows that I have are talking about that like every night like oh, Ken Birch played and Obama didn't because they were because the other team was playing pick and roll and birch is so much better at pick and roll defense. It's just that thing is really the only thing that actually people are following with this team anymore. Busevich has been good. I actually didn't have them on my list and here's why. I think there's a lot of things to figure out here.

But I do think bottoming out is actually what's best for them. I know it didn't work out before all the bites at the apples ended up with the team that they have now where it's just scored in and no real superstar. But I do think they need a frontline star player. And I think if you added someone in the top three, top four of this draft, if it is as good as everyone says it is, this team makes a lot of sense because they have parts. They just need someone to build around, if that makes sense. we do a little swap with bite at the apple? This is a pet phrase in this conversation. I assume it'll come up a lot of times. Apples are all right. I feel like there are a lot of fruits we could like, can we take a bite of the stone fruit if we're, if we're in Orlando situation.

I mean, let's be, let's be honest. Like biting apples through human history hasn't worked out very well, right? That's true. Are you guys green or red apples? I may, I'm a, maybe a Fuji, maybe a, I don't know, I'd go back and forth. I'm red for sure. Oh, no, actually, no, there's a definitive answer of this question. It's Honeycris. Sorry. Yes. Honeycris is the only acceptable answer. Thank you. Okay. Chargis, you were saying? Yeah, I think, I mean, I think what you're saying about the draft is so important.

I think this year's draft in particular, just from what I've seen talking about people on the NBA is there's probably two legit franchise-level players and Kidd Cunningham and Evan Mobley who are going to go one and two in some order. And whoever gets those guys is going to change the whole course. their franchise. And that just tells you how much luck is involved in this whole business, because there's no, like, the days of the process are over. Like, the odds are much lower for these worst teams. And maybe it's team at number seven who goes to one, at number eight or nine who goes to one. Like, whoever that team is is going to change their whole future. And that's just

unknowable right now. It's worth noting, too, that all three of the teams we've talked about so far, Orlando, Sacramento, Cleveland, all have all of their future first round picks. So maybe maybe that's proof that I have Orlando ranked a little bit too low, high, however you want to put it on my list. Yeah, with Orlando, it just seems fixable. It seems like it's an easier fix than some of these other situations. I'm going to go to number five on my list, which is a team that probably doesn't need fixing right now.

I've really waffled on this one. So this is the Washington Wizards. We're playing better than they have at any point this season. Russell Westbrook is reborn. the problem is just the context with which they're playing under. They owe the first round draft pick to the Houston as a result of the Westbrook trade, which isn't great, but it is in the future. And so it's not terrible.

We'll see the problem is they have Westbrook under contract for two more years after this one at 91 million. Bertans, it's coming around. He's shooting a little bit better these days, but that contract can look pretty ugly, pretty quickly, if he doesn't, if he reverts back to his early season form. and then Bradley Biel. I mean, if this team loses Bradley Biel, which it seems on a crash course toward, like, I just don't think that this is a good team. And if anything, it's going to take a couple years in order to rebuild. But they are playing okay now. And it seems like Beale, maybe this is PR, maybe it's not, but has some sort of like loyalty to the franchise or at the very least wants to do it

on his terms and wants it to be his team. And so there is some shredded out that maybe he will stay beyond the situation. But for me, they were five and not necessarily like super bleak. I think they're the bleakest team on this list that's close to being kind of good, which is why they're hard to place. But to your point, Justin, I see an operation that's just completely reliant on Beal. And when you're banking on that, when your whole organization and your philosophy and the build of your team is reliant on a guy basically his pain tolerance.

on, you know, not at some point wanting to move elsewhere, it puts you in such a precarious spot. And that's kind of where the darkness is here, is that the darkest timeline. We haven't even seen anything close to the bottom yet of what this team could look like and how long their time horizon could be if it's Russell Westbrook and some draft picks that you get in a Bradley Beale trade and the young guys on this team. Because the one thing that, you know, this isn't a fair question to ask at this point, because these guys are still so young. But what happens if Rui Hachemura and Deni Avdi are just kind of okay?

Yeah, it's an interesting question because it's almost like the next year or two should be reasonable, but then like the long-term outlook is very cloudy, right? So it's like how do you balance? I mean, if you have Bradley Boo and Russell Westbrook, you should make the playoffs. They should probably make at this point. But two, three years from now, does it be a last scout, then you're starting all the way over. So it's just hard to balance that in this kind of outlook. Yeah, but it has been nice of late seeing it all kind of work together.

There is a chalk outline of a team that works here where it's like, Beal is going to draw the attention just because of what an electric score he is. And if Russ isn't injured, if that hamstring isn't just bothering him, then he could attack off the catch and do what he did kind of in Houston where he's just barreling downhill and then maybe finding open shooters like Davos Bertans, who shoots on a good night, like 45% from three. Like, there is a team here and there is like a working theory. But it all hinges, I think, not only on Beal wanting to stay, but Russ being healthy.

And, like, that just hasn't been the case more often than not of late. And I do wonder if all this nice play that they've had over the past nine, ten games or so, if Russ just, like, it's hit in the leg, like, all of a sudden it goes away. It's like, it's very fleeting. And to go off Rob's point, like, one of the big changes they made is they're starting Garrison Matthews now at the three, like a pure shooter, instead of starting Denny more of a prime. project young guy. And that's always the balance, right? Is how much are you developing your young guys for the future for trying to win now?

And they're clearly in a win now mode, but that could have long-term side effects. Did you guys have him, have the Wizards on your list? Yeah, I had him at four. I was debating, I had them at six. I was debating them in Orlando. It seems like we have kind of a tier forming here of the, maybe the borderline teams for this ranking between Cleveland and Sacramento and Washington as kind of a four to six in some capacity, and maybe Orlando in, if we want to group them here as well. So Rob, did you give your number four team yet?

It was Washington. Okay, so I had Washington and Cleveland at 5'4. You had what? Sacramento, Washington. Charks. So I've been going back and forth, and I think I will just go. This is a fluid process. The draft board isn't final until the pick is made.

No, I'll say Orlando, Minnesota, actually. Five and four, Orlando, Minnesota. Okay, well. Then let's talk about Minnesota because I have them at three. Sharks, make the case from Minnesota. I mean, because you got Carl Towns, number one. I believe in Carl Towns' talent. I believe if he has a decent team around him,

he has three scenes left on his contract. And at some point, they should have more veterans to fill out the rest of this roster. It's really crazy. I believe in the year and a half, in the year since they've had Towns, Russell, and Beasley, those guys have played like two games together. So, like, Towns comes back this time,

because it gets suspended for his office season incident. Russell, knee surgery. I still think that's a construct of a decent enough team, and then they have some good young talent behind them. But I will admit, my Minnesota optimism is looking pretty dim these days. And that might be an optimistic ranking because it looks horrific right now. There's no doubt about that. Yeah, I had them as the bleakest team.

And the town's, like, the difficulty of getting to that point while having Carl Towns on your team, is incredible. But, I mean, that's what bleakness looks like is making the playoffs one time in 17 seasons. And the urgency that that puts into your organization and the realities that sharks laid out of not having your best players on the floor at the same time, of not knowing what Towns and Russell and Edwards

and Beasley could look like together if those guys can even play together. We don't really know. We won't know for a little while. But they've been uniquely penalized, I think, by their injuries because the middle section of their roster or what's supposed to be the middle section of their roster is just an abscess by NBA talent standards. They have guys who should be kind of good,

fun, end of the bench type players, the Nas reads, the Jordan McLaughlins, those guys are NBA players. They could be on a good team in a much lesser role, but they share the fate of so many bad teams in that players are just totally miscast by their circumstances and the demands it puts on them. So, I mean, I wonder,

especially with the outgoing pick, potentially to the Warriors, either this year or next, on top of all the difficulties that they've had, on top of they've just broken Ricky Rubio's spirits, which is unforgivable. I do wonder a lot about the future of this team where you look at some of these other situations

and you say, okay, they have a bankable star, they have a talent base. Minnesota has that stuff, but in a way that seems really fragile to me. Yeah, let's talk about the Rubio thing just briefly here. So I think this is rock bottom for this team because it's not like Rubio comes from just winning experiences.

Like he was on the Showtime Lakers. He was with the Ubuntu Celtics and now he's in this bad situation. He's just like shocked by just like how bad this team is. He was there for the darkest of the dark times of the David Khan era. And yet last week he was basically like, man, this shit is fucked. Like nothing is working here.

And I think he highlighted something that like speaks to like the bleakest of situations where he's like, it's not just that we're a young team making young mistakes. We're not learning from those mistakes. A specific quote was, I don't feel like this is building something, which dear God, like how bad can you get? And to underline his points,

the team has won two games since the beginning of February. They are two and 14. And they have yet to win a game since Chris Finch took over midseason. And what was one of the most bizarre situations and recent? history that I could even remember where a guy just steps in and it's like, all right, I guess I'm running the team now. I know I haven't been here until yesterday, but can you just

run this DHA real quick? This is like kind of wild. Well, to your point about making mistakes and not learning from them, I will defend Carl Town's talent from now until the end of time. Incredibly talented player, very capable. Should be on par with

an all NBA MVP level player someday. Can we say he's learned from his mistakes at any point in his career so far. Yeah, and then you look at it like, yeah, he has three years on his deal, but if you're not getting better by year two, you know, I think I had him too high because, yeah, what if it's trade towns in a year? And now you're rebuilding all over again after so many years of rebuilding. Yeah, that's my, I might have been too high on rules.

I'm thinking about it. So I had him at three in part because of towns and also Russell and Edwards. Like I basically had a bunch of criteria I laid out for each team and potential all-star was one of them, if not like the biggest point. And they have three guys who potentially could make an all-star game. You can quibble about whether or not, like, if Russell were to make another one, it would just be more just empty calories scoring. But they have talent on this team.

They have top-tier talent, which is what differentiates teams in this league. The thing that could really torpedo them to number one on this list, so the bleakest team in the NBA, is whether or not towns just wants out. And right now, it just seems like the ledger tilts more toward him staying than not, if only because of how many years he has on his contract. But they're getting dangerously, dangerously close to him being the next guy that wants out. I would say, like,

of that next class of superstars in this, if we're calling the player empowerment era, let's say the bookers, you know, the towns is of the world, the Ben Simmons. Towns would make the most sense as the guy who would want out,

especially considering his recent run of just like having really just like shitty luck with like just life. I would imagine he would welcome a change of, like scenery real quickly. But until that happens, that is why I have them at three and not one. Well, if we can go from macro to micro real quick, Jaden McDaniels

is a bit on the nose for us to talk about. I know Charks has already kind of saying his praises on another pod, which she'll not be named. I don't listen to that one. No. But, you know, he is the exact kind of talent that sinks to me and to us,

I think, and we don't choose who we love. So, you know, he is worth noting as a guy who could jump out on this roster and could make things work. But what he kind of signifies to me is the wolves really needed Jared Culver to be good. They really needed some of these other picks to pan out in a way that they haven't.

And the fact that Jaden McDaniels is the great hope that could make all this fit together, that's not where you want to be. And I guess if you want to go really, really, Mike, Roe, his minutes got cut when Finch was there. And I really feel like because Finch does know the roster. Like he came in as like,

okay, this number 28 pick. How much does he watch Minnesota as an assistant in the other? conference, probably not a ton. So he's kind of throwing the roster on the fly. And I was just horrified to see that. It was horrified. I mean, this is where, like, the Houston Rockets starts to show with

Gerson Rosehouse, though. But, like, he has started to find some helpful players out of nowhere. And that's the one thing I was dinging Cleveland for. Like, Jared Vanderbilt is, like, an NBA player. Nasreid, NBA player. Like, they have found some guys in the fringe. Which is, like, it's helpful. Like, those are rotation players.

Maybe they're a guy that you could package into a trade or just throw them in there is like not just complete deadweight salary down the road. And I also think there is this possibility here, even though the draft pick is only top three protected, which means there's a great possibility that it ends up

in the Golden State Warriors' hands. Zach Cram did a whole piece on this the other week about when and what the likelihood of the pick is to convey. But like there's a timeline here where they end up with another top three pick and all of a sudden is Towns, Russell, Edwards, and whoever, Mobily, or whoever

want to throw in there. And that's probably the best accumulation of young talent we've had since the Thunder with Hardin Westbrook and KD. I don't know if it would work out, but that's a really, really talented team. But I guess we should point out two with Roses. He had the number one pick last year. And I like Anthony Edwards. I think he's a really good prospect. But taking him over Lamello has not worked out so far. And it may end up being the thing that's held over him for his whole career in Minnesota. Because that was Lamello. I call over at six two years ago. and Lamello over Edwards over Lamello, those are things that are really,

as a GM you're judged on, as your high lottery picks. Yeah, and you wonder if the decision to trade for Russell led to the decision of Edwards, where it's like if they didn't have Russell, would they have been more inclined to draft someone like Lamello who needs the ball in his hands and is more of a point guard than Edwards who could maybe play off of Russell?

I do wonder if, like, those kind of bad decisions almost compounded. So I had them at three. Rob, you had them at one. I had them at one. And Charks, you had them at four, right? Yeah. Okay.

So who's left here? I have the Houston Rockets at two. Where did you guys have them? I did not rank them. Oh, I had them at two as well. Wow. Okay. So, Rob, you're the outlier here.

Why don't you make the case for why Houston doesn't belong in this list? Wait, you mean it's not a good thing that they're losing like dozens of games straight, right? now. Yeah, 12 straight losses last night against the Cavs, which, like, I was desperately trying to watch for this exercise. Like, I kept having to, like, turn to actually good games, including the Pelicans beating the Jazz. Yeah, I think you're okay and missing that one, Justin. You were probably... It was brutal. I mean, the Rockets came back, but ultimately lost of the Cavs. Yeah, this is, this is really, it got really sad really quickly. Remember, like, a month ago, we're like, oh, my God, their defense is just so good. This is, like, they could have the best

the both world and now they've lost 12 straight. So Rob, make the case for Rockets optimism. There's just too many picks. And I want to foreground this with Charks wrote about the Rockets and the unique situation of their rebuild, having given up some of their picks in various trades and now having to kind of replenish those coffers in the position that puts them in, it's an awkward spot not having full control of your picks when you need to be a bad team. And you're really banking on that for improvement. But they do have so many bites at the Honeycris, apple slash stone fruit here that I have some reason for optimism there

on top of the fact that Christian Wood, when healthy, has been so good. You know, he's been amazing for that, in terms of what they needed him to be. And the fact that all of this losing has come with him out of the lineup, I kind of still see the outline of a decent team here with the way Wall has played with, you know,

I don't know that I would be in the business of wanting to put a bunch of money into Victor Oladipo's pocket right now, especially when your roster's already kind of banking on John Woller. and Eric Gordon to be healthy, which is, you know, a bit of a long shot when you're compounding all those risks on top of each other. But they've made their bed with that. You know, I think the better version of the Rockets future is probably a Caris Levert instead of Victor Oladipo, which was

a conscious decision that they made with their James Hardin deal. But between the players they have in particular would and all of these draft picks, I think most crucially that they own their picks in the next two drafts after this one, the 2022, 2023. That's kind of the runway I'm looking at here is can they be a good team by 2023? I kind of think they can get there. So the one thing against all the picks is kind of what you were laying out there. They don't have their pick this year, which

it's possible that this ends up being the worst year. It's top four protected. It's a swap. Even if it falls on top four, they get to keep it no matter what. Also notable, I think, is the two picks that they have outgoing to Oklahoma City in 2024 and 2026, those are one-shot picks to convey.

top four protected, where if they are protected in those years, they don't convey as first-round picks anymore. That's huge. Now, that's to say if the rockets are still in position to get a top four pick in 2024 or 2026, I think you guys probably win this argument. That's already pretty bleak. But it does give them some protection in terms of the worst-case scenarios here. Right.

Yeah, I would only counter with the fact that a lot of the picks they have coming in are tied to a team that could be one of the best teams. modern basketball. And that, so they have, according to like the real GM, just future draft sheet here, seven incoming picks plus two and a half swaps. I only gave them a half for one where it's like they have Brooklyn's,

but they have to give the best one to Oklahoma City, yada, yada. And five and a half of those are tied to Brooklyn. Now, there is a timeline where Brooklyn just like completely flubs this. Kevin Durant gets hurt. Those guys just leave Kyrie Irving, just leaves basketball altogether to walk the earth.

and those ultimately become just like the new version of the Celtics picks but there is also a possibility where those just end up being at the end of the first round in perpetuity and so I do wonder they're like what do I have here to bank on for my future

and there isn't much here I like Wood but I think like his ceiling is it's kind of to be like just like an empty calories All-Star on a bad team right? I would say wood is legit building block I wouldn't, you know, I think he's got a ton of talent, obviously.

It doesn't matter of what's there besides him as a young, as a young piece. That's what I was looking at. As a young piece to build around Wood, it's just him, I think. Right, yeah, that's what I should say. I really like Kristen Wood, but I do think he needs other guys around him for the team to be good rather than him just being excellent, which he was for a little bit in Detroit last year. I think he needs to be involved into a context in order for that to be, to translate to wins. And to argue against myself a little bit with the Brooklyn picks,

the tough thing about banking on Brooklyn to eventually fall off. They have Nets picks going out to 2027, so a lot could happen here. But even if things go badly in Brooklyn and say some of those guys leave, but Kevin Durant stays, that's still a good team. You know, like Hardin and Durant in particular are so good that as long as they have one of those guys, the Nets are going to be a pretty solid, pretty solid. bunch that isn't going to convey a pretty high draft pick.

Yeah, so I ding them for not really having more than would on the potential All-Stars list. The picks being mostly tied to Brooklyn's future. I do like that they have Al-Adepo and Tucker to trade here in order to get more draft assets, though you'd wonder, like, will they ever get a pick that is above the lottery? Hard to really say there, especially considering Oladipo's injury concerns and the fact that he's going to be a free agent and that PJ Tucker is however old 35 or whatever. And looking for new contract. You can throw Eric Gordon into that conversation too and Daniel House if you want to get crazy.

See, I have Gordon on the bad contracts list. I think there's a possibility where they might be able to get a first from him. But his contract is after this season, three years and almost 60 million. The last year is non-guaranteed. But that's pretty rough for a guy who, as we talked about, like, has just been injured left and right throughout his career. Maybe a team like the Celtics just gets like super desperate and they want to use that trade exception and they just toss the first plus that at them. But that one's stuff. And then the wall contract. The wall contract is probably the worst contract in the NBA. He has two more years and 92 million on there. And I guess like the past 12 games have shown that if you have John Wall, like you could still be pretty bad. So you might not keep them from like completely bottoming out. But like I don't know. As long as he's there, he's just going to cast a pall on that team. And like I don't know how you really like take a next. step forward with him still wanting to be a guy there,

like to really run the show. And it seemed like he was very intent on that when he joined the Rockets this summer or winter or whatever. Is that such a bad thing? I don't think John Wall is an all-star by any great shakes, but he's been pretty good for them this season. And in particular, if you're building around a guy like Wood, who you want a really capable playmaker alongside him,

you could do a lot worse for training wheels than a guy with the vision of John Wall. Yeah, he can run your offense and get your young guys to ball where they need it, and that's always helpful. And I think ultimately if you're Houston, what's probably the most optimistic thing is they've shown like they can turn water into wine a bit. Like Jay Sean Tate, this guy was in Australia last year, looks like a player. And you have like Kevin Porra Jr., who's been absolutely destroying the G League. That's a guy with an incredible amount of talent who had a lot of off-the-court stuff going on. But you do that three or four or five times, and all of a sudden you've got a little roster going.

Maybe this is me just banging on the Kings a little bit, but if I had to make a bet, I would bet the Rockets are back in the playoffs before the Kings are. I mean, they are run by a former Rockets executive, so there's a connection there. That's true. Yeah, the only thing with Wall there is that the Wizards gave up on him and attached a first round pick

and took back an equally toxic contract, in part based on reports that they thought like they would be better chemistry-wise with Russell Westbrook than John Wall. I think that, like, says something about, like, the future there. Kevin O'Connor also had at the time of the trade, had some reporting that suggested, like, the team wasn't really excited about, like, DeMarcus Cousins and John Wall becoming, like, the power duo or the power couple of that team. So, I don't know. It's just, like, it's just not great.

And so that's what I'm worried about there. But they are not number one on my team or on my list. Charks, why don't you go first because I'm curious where you have my number one. Who is your number one? I had Detroit too, and I look at it simply as a matter of what are your long-term pieces? And I think you've got Jeremy Grant. And now you've just kind of nail a bunch of draft picks because I'm not sure what the other. Killian Hayes, I think, really hurt them being hurt this year.

They don't know what they have in him. And I think, like, when you're doing a full-on tear-down rebuild, the concern is you don't get lucky in the lottery. Who ended up picking, like, six, seven, eight for like three years, and you're just kind of stuck. And I just feel like they just don't have a lot of talent on their roster right now and there's no guarantee more talent comes So I was looking at it purely like I mean I love obviously talking about Jeremy Grant all day

But that's really your one piece you have And it's just hard to get good players They don't have any right now So what you guys are saying is you don't have any faith In Kevin O'Connor's draft board Number one overall Killian Hayes I mean maybe Charks you know more about them than anyone

I have some faith, but I think that injury really hurt him. And I think a young point guard, I always do Hayes is more, this might be a guy on his second team, like a DeAngelo Russell, where he might take him four or five years to kind of figure it out. And that doesn't really help you as a rebuilding team. Yeah, I mean, I think if you're going to make the case for the Pistons, and I have them in the middle of my ranking at three, it's about that young core of him and Isaiah Stewart and Sadiq Bay

and what you think of them. I kind of like the vague outline of that team. You know, we haven't seen Hayes play very much so far. But between those three and having all their future first rounders for the foreseeable future, I think there's enough there to start to build momentum versus some of these other teams you're talking about. How do we trade these pieces? How do we pull this back so that we can build in this other way? I don't know.

I kind of like that basis of a team along with Jeremy Grant. And then you have these other projects, which you may feel whatever way about, the Dennis Smith Jr. and the Josh Jackson's and whatnot. I think there's enough going on there to keep them out of the absolute bottom of this ranking, but I can't begrudge you when this... This is a team literally talking about

and thinking about how much money to eat on Blake Griffin's contract. So they're not in a great way. Yeah, so in the midst of all of their interesting decisions over the offseason, and there are many, the one thing that got pushed aside was they gave up a first-round pick in the deal that it was complex

because it happened at different times, but it was essentially to get Isaiah Stewart, and I believe they got Areza, but they flipped a Risa later. They gave up a first round pick, and at the time the reporting was, oh, this is nothing. This is just the pick that's not going to convey.

It's a fake pick, right? It's just something the Rockets put in there to sell to the franchise that they're building toward the future, yada, yada, yada. It ends up, if the real GM future draft sheet that they have there is correct, it's not that, like, bad of a pick.

It's actually, it's top 16 protected, this season, which it's not going to happen. The team's too bad for that. They have nine wins this year. But the protections going forward are top 16, top 18, top 18, top 13, top 11, top nine in 2027. It goes all the way out to 2027, which I believe is the long as they can go toward.

And you have to imagine that at some point they convey that pick because if they're competent, even, if they make the playoffs, they're probably giving up that pick, to which I say, why the fuck did you give up a first round pick for Isaiah Stewart, the number 16 pick in the draft. What is happening here that that is like a thing that happened? No, I kind of like Isaiah Stewart, to be honest. Especially, look, I think the most likely scenario for that pick is it

conveys some time, not this year, but maybe in the three to four year range, like the 2023, 2024, in which it's top 18 protected. So we're talking about do you want Isaiah Stewart or do you want the 22nd, 20th pick in the draft or whatever, if the pistons are good? I would say this is why I had the pistons number one, because I'm looking at those protections. and I'd be shocked that they conveyed before 2025. Really? This pick is the reason

you have them number one? No, I'm saying the fact that those protections are not going to get hit. Like, I'm looking at those protections and saying, they're going to be bad next year. They're going to be bad next year.

And top 18 protected the next two years, that means they're above like an eight seed. And with the talent they have right now, I'd be surprised that happened. So I think that pick is not going to convey

for a very, very long time. And that's why I think, because they have kind of a bleak future. I mean, they do, relatively speaking. I think I'm betting on the relative instability of the back half of the Eastern Conference playoff picture more than anything where any of these teams could be in that running. And if any of these young guys starts to get some traction in their career, along with Jeremy Grant playing well,

that might be enough, honestly. Right. They do have the rest of their first round picks. You know, after they deal with the Blake Griffin scenario, which wasn't, you know, this regime's problem, that they inherited that and they're just trying to figure out the best solution. the contracts aren't terrible. Like, you're not going to get anyone to sign there anyway. So, like, maybe signing Jeremy Grant to this outrageous $20 million a year deal won't hurt them that much.

Which, by the way, take that back. It is not outrageous anymore. My man is putting up numbers. Let's end that adjective right now. I won't say the same thing about Mason Plumley, who for some reason is making like nearly like $17 million over the next two years. But it comes down to drafting well, as Chirks mentioned. And that's really not a plan. That's just a hope.

That's just like you're just hoping to win the lottery, literally. And to me, that's like, of all the teams that we're talking about here, they don't have anything in hand right now that you could say, this is a good situation. They know the way forward. And I think that's a great point because if you look at a lot of these teams we're talking about, so Sacramento, Minnesota, Houston, Detroit, they're all being run by first or second year G.

and we just don't know what their draft track record is going to look like over a longer haul. So one of the reasons I'm lower on Cleveland is I just have not liked their draft picks under the Altman era. He's been in like three or four years now. And like they might work out, but I must not have a big fan of them. And that's such a big role in this because like, what the lottery is now is you might be at five or seven. Can you find that one really, really good player in that range? And that remains to be seen because right, every GM gets hired. I think he's an awesome drafter.

You don't get hired as a GM if you don't have uber confidence in yourself. to scout. And we'll see who can actually scout of all these guys. I mean, Troy Weaver, he was at Oklahoma City for forever. He made his bones to scout. I know Troy Weaver is saying, I'm a scout these drafts so well. It doesn't even matter. I'll pick the start no matter where he is. We'll see if he's right. Right. All right. So let's run down our picks, just to wrap up here. So at 5 to 1, I have the Wizards at 5, Cleveland at 4, Minnesota at 3, Houston at 2, Detroit at 1. Rob, what do you have? I have Sacramento at 5, Washington at 4, Detroit at 3, Orlando at 2, Minnesota at 1.

Okay, then I had Orlando at 5, Minnesota, 4, Cleveland 3, Houston 2, Detroit 1. Pretty good. I would say that there's a general consensus there that Detroit is pretty bad. I think they are our unfortunate winners here. All right, that's it for us today. We will be back next week, same time, same place. Thank you to John Kerman on production. We will see you next time.