The Ringer NBA Show - Real or Fake: MVP Anthony Davis, the Deep Mavs, the Suns Sans Ayton, and More | Group Chat

Episode Date: October 30, 2019

The Golden State Warriors’ bumpy start to the season highlights the steep cost of building a superteam (0:59). Then, with so many premature narratives shaping up from the first handful of games of the season, which ones are real and which ones are fake (10:04)? Hosts: Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier Guest: Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Carl Towns is holding Andrew Wiggins back. The Pacers don't miss Victor Olat Depot. The Sun's offense should run through Aaron Vaines. Basketball is very good. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's Crooked chat. It's Justin Vary and Chris Ryan. Soon we'll be joined by Jonathan Sharks.

Isaac Lee is on the decks today. And we have a lot of stuff to get through, including all my basketball reference slider heads coming out of the woodwork for Anthony Davis last night. He's back. It hasn't been since before Pearl Harbor that, like, a guy did what he did last night. Is that right? Playing through a debilitating shoulder injury that costs him all of two minutes on the floor. Anthony Davis went off last night against the Grizzlies. We also have to touch on Trey Young rolling his ankle after.

really just being, as Kevin O'Connor talks about today, just kind of like this Steve Nash, Steph Curry hybrid for the first few games of the season. He'll be back soon enough. We hope we are also going to talk about the Mavs. We'll talk about some things that we've loved to see this season and things we've hated to see this season so far. But Justin, I wanted to start today.

Hi. Hello. I want to talk a little bit about the Warriors. Because they've gone through this kind of mini-identity crisis over the last couple of days, the last week or so, since the season starts. They opened their season with two really bad losses. And after those losses, to paraphrase both Steve Kerr and Dramon Green, they were like, we're really screwed.

Steve Kerr was like, this is the new reality. We're going to get our asses kicked some nights. And Dremont Green was like, we suck right now. Now, they won a game after that, I believe they beat the Sons. They beat the Pelicans. In New Orleans. In New Orleans, tough road wins. And Steph came out and was like, Steph already started chirping about nobody believes in us, which is fine.

It's good. but the people who didn't believe in you or the people who were being really candid were Drey and Steve Kerr wasn't like Tim Calcombe, you know? So I thought the interesting thing here was that like the Warriors were their own take artists for a couple of days there. But it got me thinking a lot about where they're at

and the price that they're paying for the five years of excellence that they went through. About five, right? And I wonder whether or not this is one of the first bills due in the player movement era. and how hard it's going to be for teams. All these teams that we see,

the bucks, the Sixers, the Clippers, the Lakers, that we see ascending here. How hard it's going to be to keep this stuff sustainable for more than two, two, three seasons? Yeah, I mean, they're an interesting case because once they grabbed DeAngelo Russell in what ended up being a sign and trade for Kevin Durant, it was widely presumed that was only an asset grab.

Sure. That was just like... And it could still be. Yeah, right. There's only so much available land. You take as much as you can get and you figure it out later. I feel like we had since that happened talked ourselves into them as a contender,

or now we're talking ourselves into, at the very least, we're starting to see that perhaps they just don't have enough to be that team that they used to be. Steph can only do so much, Dremont can only do so much, especially if he has to play power forward when they have all this money wrapped up in their center rotation. I think I'm back to the start of things where it's like this is probably a bridge year, that this is probably a two-year process and whatever happens here. Right, because they have something like 140 committed

to those four guys in 2020, 2021, right? And they're hard-capped, so they really can't do much. That's why they can't add more players in order to help themselves out right now. And, I mean, they're waiting on Clay. Yeah. Who obviously is a bigger part than we ever realized. We knew he was good, but at this point,

like, their defense has been atrocious. They give up 141 and I think 122 in consecutive games. Yeah, and the Clay thing can't. be his value is only like multiplying over the course of the season we'll really see how important Clay Thompson is because I think that if they had him you're talking about

the four or five seed probably to not put too fine a point maybe six seven but like I think that he would make their biggest weakness he would take care of that in a lot of ways the perimeter defense I kept thinking obviously I'm a sixers fan but I was thinking a lot about the Sixers in relationship

to this because in a lot of ways this is like what's happening in the Warriors is almost like a a weird inversion of the process. Like the process was all about you, you know, you wait and you slog through these tough seasons and you get as many of these shots at possibly franchise changing players.

And that's the price you pay is like this awful basketball for a couple of years and feeling like you're the punchline of the league. And essentially that feeling of being picked on or that feeling of nobody understanding what we were trying to accomplish is what created like the fandom around the Sixers that we see today.

That kind of like, and this sort of almost like religious belief in like how you go about doing things. And now the Sixers are reaping the awards for that. You know what I mean? And they have a window right now to go after the title. The Warriors in a weird way are almost now on the other side of that.

They're paying the bill for their success. And credit to Bob Myers for not trading Clay or not trading Draymond and saying like, okay, we're going to tear this down, but we're going to keep Steph to like sell tickets in the new building. but we're going to try and replenish our assets. Do you see the kind of correlation I'm making there, though?

Yeah, I guess it ultimately comes down to how we view them as an entertainment product as well. Yeah. Like, are we more interested in the Warriors now because they're fallible and they are kind of riding the rails a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I think that their talent level is a little, like a little low to be entertaining. I have found the blowouts to be a rubber-necking experience. Really? And thus have watched both of those games.

Really? Yeah, it's just, it's an oddity when you're used to this team just dominating the field. And all of a sudden, they look like the calves after LeBron left. At certain times, obviously the talent level is much higher than. So there's a bunch of what ifs here that I've kind of been thinking about because obviously there's what if Kevin DeRitt stays. You know, obviously, what if Kevin DeRat doesn't get hurt? You probably won another championship. What if Kevin DeRate stays? This whole thing is you're talking about, yeah, we're maxed out on these four guys, but it's the four guys who, the only four guys you need to win it. championship, you know. I also started thinking about what we can learn from what's happening to the Warriors

for these newer super teams. And for like, I'm curious about what would have happened if, I guess even like if LeBron, like I was thinking about LeBron, especially in terms of Cleveland, like Cleveland and Miami. But like, what would it happen if those teams had been forced to continue to try and replenish their rosters around LeBron and how much, how much that would have cost them? We're seeing what it cost, it's costing Cleveland now. but Miami only now is really just raising their head above the parapet.

Right, and they also kind of walked that line, unlike Cleveland, who clearly pushed the hard reboot button. Miami tried to soft reboot and tried to compete immediately, and it kind of got them in this weird cap hell that they're in today, but they've been relevant ever since. So I guess that's the trade. And they drafted well, and they've picked up good scrap heap guys. And I wonder whether or not you have any criticism for the way Bob Myers has handled the like 5 through 10 part. the roster. I guess there's only so much you could do. Ultimately, your team success is going to come down to those top two or three players. And so, like I said, you just kind of grab them when you have that possibility. Even at the initial Russell just like never becomes the kind of step

flight they probably hope for him to be in Golden State. He's still a guy that would be attractive to a team like the Timberwolves, for instance. And like, what can you get for him in order to replenish your roster? I just think, in a way, they kind of did things the right way because a lot of the roster spots around these guys, they filled with young guys. And if you're going to take a risk, why not take a risk on draft picks and guys who probably didn't get as much of a shot?

And like you just hope that they can be something, especially next to a guy like Draymond, guy like Steph, who have historically just brought out the best in guys. Yeah, I mean, I'm in no way suggesting that Meyer should have done something, like some major reconstructive surgery on this roster that included the core players.

But it's interesting to see now where the clippers are after they've dismantled Lobb City. Because in the dismantling of Lobb City, they were able to acquire all those pieces that they eventually used to get Paul George, that they used to find Montres Harrell, the SGAs, like all the guys that, like, wound up making them relevant last year, and then giving them the war chest to go out

and get the people they wanted this year. Right, and now the Clippers, two years from now, in the darkest timeline, could be in the same situation in the wars. Absolutely. Absolutely. All those guys want to get paid. You know what I mean? When Montrez wants to get paid and everybody wants to get paid on that team, they will be in the same spot. Right.

I mean, Anthony Davis is technically a free agent this summer. And he hasn't fully committed, although everyone expects him to, there could be a situation where the Lakers bottom out, LeBron gets hurt, maybe AD gets hurt, and all of a sudden, he's like, actually there's not enough for me to compete here. Maybe I go somewhere else. That's interesting. All right. Let's call up charks.

We're going to run through real and fake and love to see it, hate to see it, and talk a little about what's been happening in the league this week. All right, now we are joined by the ringers Jonathan Charks. John, what's up, man? Nothing too much. Back on the grill with the season. It's exciting. Yeah, well, we wanted to start off.

We're going to talk about real or fake. The things from the first week of the season, what's real, what's fake. And this is a good time to talk about whether or not it's real or fake that Anthony Davis is already walking away with the MVP award one week into the season, Justin. You probably have spent the most time

out of anybody I know watching ATD Davis, just out of professional obligation. Unfortunately, yeah. So what did you think of his performance last night, which was against the Memphis Grizzlies? He scored 40 points in 31 minutes. He had 20 rebounds. He had two block shots.

He went 26 for 27 from the charity stripe and looked like a god, honestly. Like literally played every single position you could play on a basketball floor, did every single thing you could ask at basketball, player to do and did it well. Yeah, this really crystallizes the Anthony Davis experience, as I've known it, over the past few years.

One of the first games that I ever had to cover, I actually had to do it from afar, was I believe still his best game to date. I think he had 51 or 52 and 20 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons, a team that he just loves to stomp on. And it was one of the most, like, incredible things I've seen. It's just he just has this way of when he's in the zone, everything goes. He has that soft floater.

It's just like an automatic shot. And obviously on the defensive end, he can be a monster whenever he's engaged. And on the flip side of that, is he always tends to get dinged by these minor injuries. And you saw him leave the game

at some point because of a shoulder situation. I'm not sure what the proper diagnosis is at this point, but these things just continue to come up. Right. Because this is just how he is? I don't know if it's his body, whatever. Let me ask you this. Is somebody who's like been around Davis

like in that scenario. It seems crazy to look at the line last night and talk about whether or not he is fragile at all. But does he over-nourced stuff? Does he like walk off the floor and go back to the locker room at the slightest sign of trouble? And does that even matter?

I think it's a little both. Okay. I think that, yeah, there's something with his body that perhaps is just more susceptible to like nagging injuries. I think also like if you were to ask like Pelican's employees,

like if you gave them true serum, they'd probably say that maybe he doesn't play through as much as he probably should have. I think he got a lot of cover from the Pelican situation because everybody was ready to blame everybody else for things. Sure. But there were a lot of times where when things weren't going well, he would just take his foot off the pedal and kind of coves for a while.

And I think that's the biggest difference I've seen from him with the Lakers. He seems fully engaged in the Lakers, including LeBron James, all seem like they're willing to take their cues from him. Yeah, John, that was the thing that jumped out of me last night was on some super teams. you're just kind of like, oh, how are we going to guard all these different talented players? With the Lakers, even last night, Davis did what he did, partially because he was being tripled. You know what I mean?

Like, the reason he went to the line and shot 27 shots is because every time he got in the post, the Grizzlies sent everyone like the Baltimore Ravens. They just sent everybody at the ball. Yeah, my guy, Jaron Jackson, played like 15 minutes last night because he got like five fouls, going up against AD. Have you seen anything different in Davis this season than previous seasons? I don't know. I think it's been a slow process for him.

I wrote an article in the preseason kind of talking about how he's grown his game over time. And last year was really the first year we saw like the playmaking, really good three-point shooting. And like Davis, it just took him, I guess is what is his seventh year in the league now? Yeah. And I mean, a guy that size came into league super raw. And it's really impressive to watch and just add things to his game each and every year. year. And I think now we're kind of seeing the fully formed product. Because when AD is passing, when AD's shooting and getting to the rim at will, like,

there's not much you can do. Yeah. And I would say, you know, the Lakers and the Grizz were pretty much locked up through about three into a little bit into the third quarter. And then the Lakers went on this really absurd run, powered mostly by AD, and honestly powered a lot by his ability to get to the line. And it was very old school. It wasn't like the way, Some people knock, some people, some people knock Hardin for hunting for fouls. It was like, I can get up there. So just give me the ball down low and I will like, I will absorb all this contact.

And they're just going to have to call it. Yeah. If you talk to a lot of people who have been around the game and just like an analyst, they will often tell you the difference between a good player and a great player is one that can get to the line. Yeah. Because you could generate just easy points for yourself. And Davis is obviously a good enough shooter to take advantage of that. not going to be like a Dwight Howard back in the day where you put him on the line.

He might only shoot 50%. He's still a good shooter. And I think that's especially important because his three-point shot hasn't always been as consistent as I think a lot of people have expected. That's the one flaw in his line from last night, 0 for two. But at the same time, like, if they're able to continue to pair Davis with a traditional center and not really lose enough from it, I think it's fine. Although I will say just like the one nagging question I have going forward is, is it still

not better for Davis to play more five, because as we saw last Friday against the Jazz, as soon as they went to that sort of lineup, they made sense in a way that they still kind of don't with a Dwight or McGee on the floor. Yeah, I mean, John, did you get, I don't know if you got a chance to watch this specific Gris Lakers game because I know you've been watching a lot of Mavericks this week, but what did you think of like the way the Lakers as a team were playing and especially like how LeBron is operating in this new Anthony Davis reality? Well, I didn't see much of it, but when you're talking about like Davis playing bully ball, and it reminded me the Clippers game opening night.

The one thing they did well was like pounding the ball, download it AD and just playing bully ball. And that's kind of their best chance to win because they're not going to have more talent in the Clippers. They've got to attack them right at the five, use AD against, you know, Harold and Zubach. That's probably their best chance to get out of the West. I still think, and I was saying this in preseason,

that one of the biggest questions, perhaps the defining question of the season, is who can guard Anthony Davis. Right. And if he plays like this or anywhere close to that, I think that could be the key. to who wins the title. Yeah, I also think that it's going to be,

like we talked about this a lot during the preseason, but how much does record matter to you? Because I think that if and when one of Davis or James are out, it's going to be a really tough night for the Lakers. And so in that case, if you are managing their loads, like LeBron played 28 minutes last night, that's like a really good Tuesday night for LeBron, is to go out there and get 23 and 28,

watch another guy soak up all the plaudits, and like get onto the next one. It's if Davis is like, I feel, you know, completely worn out from that Tuesday night game, I'm not playing the next one. It'll be really interesting to see what happens to the Lakers when it's just LeBron and the bad news bears out there. Right. And as you alluded to, they had to turn it on in the third quarter because it was very close

up until half-tod. It was like the Grizz were giving them a game. Right. When I caught up to it after watching the Mavs game, like I think they were down. Yeah. And Morant was doing stuff. And I was just like, Oh, God.

Because these are the type of situations, I think the Lakers are going to be in all year. I think they're going to be, their margin for error is just so thin because their depth is so thin that, like, they're going to struggle. And I do wonder how much that taxes Davis specifically because they are going to him a lot. Kyle Kuzma is supposed to be back soon. I think probably by the end of the week, Rajan Rondo is going to get into the mix, although I wonder if that's going to hurt them. Why?

Because of the shooting? His defense is atrocious. I think he's just one of the most overrated players. They're a pretty good defensive team right now. Right. Like, I would probably rather. Caruso if Caruso can hit shots. AC Club, love it.

I do. The Caruso propaganda on this podcast is one of the surprises of the year. He is incredible. Not only because, no, no, he will just, like, all of a sudden he'll just, like, take off and do this, like, monster dunk that you'd expect from Russell Westbrook. And then, like, he'll be trotting back on the other way across the core. And then you'll see, like, his hairline and how he's just clinging to the scraps of it. And you're like, who is this guy?

He's going through the four stages of Nick Calathus in front of our eyes. He's got surprising athleticism, as they say. Surprising athleticism. Okay, so that's the Lakers. Let's get into what else is real or fake about the season so far. And I was excited to talk about this because of last night. The Mavericks beat the Nuggets in Denver on the road. And they got double-digit performances from 10 players.

So for a team that we are like, they're going to go as far as Luca and Chris Stapps take them. That was last night, dare I say, was a very Denver-esque victory for the Mavericks. John, did you get a chance to watch this one? Oh, yeah. Don't sleep on the three other guards they got in Dallas. Name them and shame them, my guy. So the Lon Wright, Seth Curry, Jalen Brunson. You know what? Honestly, that is a really good back court rotation. Yeah?

Seth Curry is one of the best shooters in the league easily. Jalen Brunson, I think, could a chance to be. They love Jalen Brunson and Dallas. like Rick Harlisle will not compliment any player on the team but Jalen Brunson. Any chance he gets this Brunson guy is Sondor-Reed, he's amazing. And then DeLon Wright, I think,

is a chance to be a really good player in Dallas. The one thing Dallas is doing, they're playing at the center, either Christaps Porzingis or Maxi Kleba the whole game. So they're always playing five out. It's kind of like the Brooke Lopez effect. The lane is wide open for these Dallas cards

all the time. It's hard to stop them. Are you surprised by how they're spreading it around. Like, that was like a very, like, they held on 109106. They came back in the fourth, I think, and then powered by Luca down the stretch, like really just took it to Denver. Yeah, Charks wrote about this during the preseason.

The fact that the Mavs ended up striking out yet again on the big name free agents, like they were tied to Kemba Walker, some of these other guys, ended up being to their benefit. Because what they did is they just ended up getting a bunch of guys that fit perfectly around Luca and Christops as your big two. And you've seen the impact just having Christops's had on the floor just on Luca and just the team. Like he is just a monster at the rim. I think he got 14, 14 boards.

Right. And I think he had five blocks against the Pelicans the other night. It's just he's giant and he has good timing. And so he'll be a deterrent there. But those guys that Charks mentioned, yes, they're good players in their own right. But in a game like this one where Luca was a little shaky, he didn't have the impact that he had on the first few games. and those guys just stepped up. In the fourth quarter, I believe they mounted a big lead

with Brunson and Dillon Wright in there. Yeah, but then down at the very end, I meant like Luca got that go-ahead bucket, right? Yeah, he had the layup at the end of the game, drive him to the rim. And this is an interesting tension, I think, with the Mavs in general. It does, everything good that they're going to get

is going to come via Luca. The team is built around Luca. I do wonder, like, yes, he's incredible and makes these, like, ridiculous circus shots, especially in crunch time though you've seen it already this season where sometimes he'll make them and it'll be amazing and everyone will celebrate and other

times I'm just like This is Justin's skepticism This is like Justin kind of round to the corner How dare you? Come on, let's do it It's just it's hero ball and I think I think eventually It's just it's gonna bear out that that's not the best shot

He was three for 12 last night It wasn't like he took too many shots You think he was taking too many bad shots? No he plays within himself I'm saying specifically at the end of games. It tends to go... That is fair. He takes some kind of goofy shots, but really, it's not hero ball, it's hardened ball. That's what he's playing. I like it. I like that spin on it. Yeah. And the one thing he does, which is going to drive opponents crazy all season,

is Luca can sell a call like it's no one's business. Like, if he's missing shots, he's going to right to the line. He's going to slow down his drives, throw his body out, kick his legs out, and cry for a foul call. And he gets a lot of the time. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. So have you always kind of had like a note of skepticism about Luca? Because I think that like he became a cult very fast. You know? Justin, can you even work at the ringer and be a Lucasceptic?

I thought that was not allowed. I am skeptical of when we instantly dub guys just like the next best player in the league, first with Luca and then with Zion. Right. I can't deny that both players are incredible and they have bright futures in the league. I'm talking about specifically this season and at this point in Luca's career, it does feel like he's fighting against, yes, he could do everything, but should he do everything?

And is his worst impulse the fact that he thinks he could do everything? I will say this, too, on terms of with Luca, I hate to even mention this, but he has a tendency to hunt triple doubles in a very Westbrook-like fashion that I think people don't really know yet nationally. But it was pretty egregious in the Portland game. He was at nine assists in the fourth quarter,

and he would not shoot the ball. Oh, come on. Get that 10th assist. So, like, I mean, this guy's the next, oh, fuck, what's his name? Who's the guy from the Cavs that? Ricky Davis?

He's the next Ricky Davis. Ricky Davis? Yeah. So wait, hold on. Luca went from being like, like God Luca, like, please take my firstborn to now we're worried he's maybe hunting for fouls to now he's the new Ricky Davis.

I'm just giving it to you straight, man. I'm not mad at it. You got to get your stats. It's no big deal. I just can't believe how public opinion will just shift with the changing of the wins. We'll be back with more real or fake, but first, a word from our sponsors.

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Head to privacy.com slash NBA to sign up. new customers will automatically get $5 to spend on their first purchase. Yeah, that's free money for any online purchase. Go to privacy.com slash NBA to sign up now. Let's talk a lot of what else is real or fake from this first week of the season. I wanted to ask you guys what you thought of the Sons, who have already been through seemingly a season's worth of ups and downs. They lost their last year's number one draft pick, DeAndre Aidan,

to a suspension for use or legal use of a diuretic, I guess. Not going to speculate about what that's all about. He's out for a while. But they're two and two. They have a top 11 offense and a top 10 defense. Obviously, this is the smallest sample size you can possibly have. The Rubio signing, which a lot of people were very skeptical about, it looks like it was exactly what they needed.

Now, I don't know whether or not they can be a competitive team when Kelly Ubre is the second option. But right now, they look pretty fun. And I wonder whether or not there was a little bit of addition by subtraction for this team over the offseason, losing the ghost of Josh Jackson, who obviously is not currently in the NBA. He's in the league.

Banished. Banished. And T.J. Warren, who went to the Pacers and accumulated a lot of interesting young pieces and were a little bit of a cautionary tale for maybe like a hawks or some other team coming up who have like seven really interesting young guys. Who's going to be the one?

Right. The magic. Yeah. And it's like, oh, sometimes that can get a little confusing for everybody. It seems like they have Booker and Uber to put in the points and Aiton when he's there, and everybody else knows how to make a teamwork. Does that sound like a fair assessment? And do you think that the sons are real or fake at this point?

Yeah, I mean, the Thunder model only works when you draft three MDD. Three generational talents, yeah. Yeah, not Cam Johnson. But I do think they got a bunch of adults in the room. Tyler Johnson, yeah. Yeah, I think they, I mean, Ricky Robio is a big one. Aaron Baines is also someone who will just like put guys on their asses. And I feel like...

And played for two pretty like... He's good. Mature. He's a good player. He's a good player. Responsible organizations. Yeah. I think he's the type of player along with Rubio that they need who will set just a

emotional tone because I think Booker can get, can kind of like drift a little bit bit. And can get into his own like scoring and be a little bit of a whiner. Yeah. And it does feel like... Is that entirely based on him complaining about getting doubled and pickup? Or is that just like... No, it's just years of watching him just like complain about falls.

But I do feel like Rubio, Baines, these sort of guys, I don't know, there seems to be something different. And obviously Monty Williams is a coach there. And he traditionally has been, at least with the Pelicans, a guy who will automatically raise your floor, if not your ceiling. Okay. So, John, what are you seeing from the sun so far? Yeah, I mean, I think it's exactly what you all have been saying. If you go back and look at their last two drafts with their new front office, they've clearly gone the opposite way. So the last two years, they drafted a really old, really good shooter,

Mikhail Bridges, and then Cam Johnson. So it's like the opposite of Josh Jackson. So they kind of like overcorrected. They said, we have our main guys. You have Booker and Aitin. And then everybody else you're going to bring in is going to be an older player. They can play with them a role. They can play within a system.

So now they have like a culture and a professional structure. And even if they'll make the playoffs, I think this allows them to develop Aton and Booker because those are going to be your two guys going forward. And I think that really, there's hope and finish the first time in a long time. Do you guys know if the goat is still there? So they still, obviously, Arnavitz had that off-season piece about like the state of the Sun's organization

and there was something about like a goat wandering around the offices taking craps in the corner? Right. I think it was like to celebrate something or was like a joke about like, you're the goat now and they put it in Ryan McDonough's office. And as they were waiting for him to enter the office, the goat defecated all over the office. I mean, there's not a good place for a goat

It makes it too hot for a goat Gonna get him out of there But the thing is, You guys ever see that movie, Bull Durham? Yeah, I would hope so. Yeah. It's like the fungus in the shower shoes. It's like if you're bad,

you're just disgusting because you have fungus in your shower shoes. But if you're good, fungus in the shower shoes, it's colorful. Right, right? Well, maybe that's Booker yelling off a double team and pickup.

That's right. It's like, oh, I'm a winning player. I'm booking my game, right? Instead of being a whiner. I think the sons are good. I think that they'll probably, but this is probably what they are, which is like two good nights, two bad nights. Yeah, I would like to temper the optimism here.

I'm not a believer. Oh, okay. So fake? Yeah, I do think they're kind of fake. I just, I look at the overall talent level and while the roster makes more sense, I just don't know if they could withstand like 25 games without DeAndre Aiton. And like even the defensive personnel, like Dario Sarish, yeah, like Frank Kamitsky is getting minutes here.

Frank, the tank is killing it right now. Yeah, for now. It's like the dirty dozen. It's like, what a weird collection of like castoffs now. It's a scrap heap. Like, Check DeLow is here. My guy from New Orleans. It doesn't really make sense.

And even like some of the numbers, like the defensive numbers when Aiton was in there are incredible. I think they had like a 75 defensive rating in his 35 minutes. But that's like one game against the Kings. Right. It was like literally one game. But that like that accounts for a huge amount of data. They're like top 10 off defense then. Right.

And also like if you don't have a giant rim protection. for you, that's also going to matter. I know Aiton historically hasn't been a good defender, but he seemed to be showing something that would help. He's a large human. He's a large human, yes. Okay, so we're saying Anthony Davis, real MVP

frontrunner. Yes? Yeah. Him or towns. What do you believe in, Justin? The wolves are 3-0. My wolves. Hold on a second. How are you claiming the wolves? Real or fake? Are you trying to tell me that the wolves are for real? I think the wolves are for real.

think the wolves are going to make the playoffs. I wrote this in our group post. Uh-huh. MVP candidates don't miss the playoffs. I don't know why I MFed you over the rules. That was like a little aggressive. I like it. Wait, so you're feeling him?

Totally. Yeah. I mean, it makes so much sense. He's like, he came into the league and everyone was talking about how he's his generational talent. All of a sudden, the wolves, as Charks wrote about in his feature this preseason, they just leaned into all of his best attributes, and everything makes more sense. Like, yes, they need more help at point guard, like, Andrew Wiggins.

is basically anytime he plays well, has found money and I'm not sure how long he can stay engaged. Only hits game winners. Right. It's guaranteed he gets on SportsCenter. After getting benched. But Towns is incredible. And as long as he continues to play this way,

and if he continues to play, which he has done historically, just doesn't miss games, I think that they could win 45 games make the playoffs, like below 50? Big test tonight, Charks. If people are hearing this before the Wednesday night, games tip off, Sixers, Wolves,

the battle of the two teams on pace to win 82 games this season. Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting game just because of how is Ambide going to guard a five-out offense? Is Ambid going to guard towns or Covington? How's that going to work? I know the Bob Covington return game. I got to say one of the reasons why the wolves look so good is Covington. I've started to really have a new appreciation for having someone who can guard the opposing teams point guard really well, or the best backcourt player on the opposing team. But watching Josh Richardson do it against Trey Young was

very informative and my guy, Matisse MVP, Thiebel. You know, Butler was supposed to be that for the Sixers last year and I think did and didn't at various times do it. I think a lot of that was tied into him being like, I flip my own switch. But watching the

wolves this season, you can really see it's kind of like the reverse rim protector. It's like in some ways for team defenses now, it's almost more important to have a point of attack defender. like Covington that really offsets like any other

defensive weaknesses have you noticed that John about like the Covington impact there yeah well Towns talked about it in the preseason because last year

when Covington was in Minnesota he had a really good defensive rating with Covington on the floor and he said like I love playing with Covington

because I know if he's on the other side of the floor there's no penetration coming like it simplifies for me on defense I think that's been very helpful for Towns

that's really interesting that's like having like it's like Yeah, it's like what you hear dudes talking about, like, when they have like a good defensive backfield. You know what I mean? Like they know... Yeah, it's a shutdown corner.

Like that side of the field is taken care of. Yeah. All right. So the wolves, according to Justin and John, are real. Anthony Davis, Justin rolled his eyes. And I think he's probably like wait until he's out for four to six weeks with a shoulder stinger. But I think he's pretty real. Yeah.

He would be number two on my list. Who's number one? Towns. So you're saying Towns over Davis. Do you want some stats? I did some data. We've played four games. Hey, the stats are the stats, though.

Okay, so Towns is averaging 32 points, 13.3 rebounds, 5 assists, 51.7% from 3 point line. No player in history has ever averaged 30, 10, 5, and 40 from 3 point lane. And that is just like completely within the realm of possibility. Like, I would expect him to do that this year. 40 is high, but he did it last year. Say those again? Say those stats again? 30 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 40% from 3. That's pretty good.

It's incredible. And he could do it. The other numbers to look at, so Towns is shooting 9.73s a game and getting 9 free throws a game. He is? It's incredible. Isn't that insane?

He's jacking like Steph. Wow. He's playing like, it's like Brooke Lopez, but 30 points a game. Is the nine three point attempts a game gonna stick? I think so.

From my talk to Minnesota, they're like Greenlight Carl Towns, do whatever you want to do. He's their best three-point shooter, and he's one of the better three-point shooters in the league. And then he goes down low and he looks like Tim Duncan in 2005 or whatever, right?

When he needs to. Okay, so those are real or fake. The seasons just started. And John and Justin and I, we have our own personal preferences. So we want to talk a little bit about what we love to see, what we hate to see. And I want to start to say that you hate to see Tyler Hero become Clay Thompson. And you hate to see it because I was wrong.

Okay, I was wrong about this guy. I thought all you dudes were just like going off of one or two summer league games or preseason games and that this just happens to be a dude on a hot streak. He looks fucking awesome. Isaac, do we have any like trumpets we could play here to announce this take to the world? Play like, play Danny Boy for my funeral because my takes are going in the ground. I don't listen to me. He scored what, 29 points last night?

Yeah. Against who was against the Hawks, right? Or bad when Trey Young is not on the floor. Yeah, that's true. But Heron looked awesome. He looked really, really, really sick. And it was interesting because Butler was back. And this is another team that are going to be very reliant on one great player,

but have obviously benefited from years of not having that focal point. Because I think they know how to play when Jimmy Butler is out or when Jimmy Butler is taking three quarters of a game off. And to see Dragich out there and to see BAM out there, and to see Bam out there and to see Hero out there. Is it Hero or Harrow? I believe it's Hero.

That doesn't seem fair. You can't have your last name to be hero. But the STRR puts a little twist on it. So his nickname is superhero, right? I guess so. I mean, it's not great. Tell me all about how I was wrong. He just, he has one of the pure shots of this draft class.

And I think that just translates immediately and you're starting to see it. Yeah. This team also needs that. His release is fucking. Fast. It's not clay fast, but it's really good. So we had some good hero nicknames and Slack yesterday.

I read him out for everyone. So there was TikTok Mike Miller. Fire Festival Jason Capono. Baker Mayfield with the jumper. Rude Boy, JJ Redick. And then this is a deep cut, Coachella Casey Jacobson. Coachella Casey Jacobson is definitely my favorite. It's a good one.

Yeah. Tyler Hero definitely looks like a guy who goes to like. Wet Republic. You know what I mean? Right. He's living his best life in Miami for sure. Day pool party in Vegas. Yeah, wearing drop crotch pants.

Yeah. All right. What else do you guys love to see hate to see? Justin, give me one. All right. I'm going to go with that same game for my hate to see. Hate to see Tray Young leave in part because of what I mentioned before. Because as soon as Tray Young leaves the court, the hawks are terrible.

Which is why I'm not very high in the hawks. I think there's been a lot of momentum. I'm being very cynical and pessimistic today. I just, I don't see it. I don't get it. And it doesn't seem like it's going to work this year. Okay. So I do think that part of that is that so much of their offense right now,

even other guys' offense on the team, is completely reliant on what Trey is doing. So it's either Trey stretching the court or Trey getting penetration, throwing lobs, dishing out, making these incredible passes. There's no solution for that. There's no non-Trey solution. I guess we're about to find out because he'll probably miss it out. John Collins is doing well.

He's doing well when he's getting lobs for. Trey Young and flushing them, yeah. Yeah, Collins is the only guy I have confidence in to be able to get his shot and to provide offense. Whereas, like, a guy like DeAndre Hunter, his numbers are positive. I think he has a positive effect on the floor just because he fills so many different roles.

But that's what they drafted him for, to be kind of that fourth piece who will play defense and will be able to hit open shots. Cam Reddish, on the other hand, I'm sorry to say, Isaac, is shooting 22% from the floor? He'll figure it out. I mean, I still believe.

James Hardin is shooting, I think, 29%. So perhaps there's just like some solace in that, that it's only a couple games, but he needs to be a significant contributor in offense for that team to work. John, give me a love to see it or I hate to see it. Okay, I'm going to go real deep cut here on Love to See. So

this guy named Christian Wood. He plays for the Pistons. You know Christian Wood? Of course I do, brother, the process. Okay. Oh, that's right. He was up there. He's crazy talented. I remember out of the G-Leaks showcase last year, and I'm watching the seven-foot guy. He's the best athlete

on the floor. He's shooting threes, dribbling ball up the court, taking him off the dribble. It's like, this guy's amazing. Why is he in the G League? I think this is like a six team in five seasons or something. And he dropped 19 points and 12 boards in the Pacers in 21 minutes the other night. He's a special, special talent. I think he'd have a huge year. Yeah, I think the Pelicans had him toward the end of last season. They had to get rid of him just because they have so many guys. The Pistons had to cut Joe Johnson for him. So that was a thing at training camp, who didn't make the team. Wow, the big three wept. Ice cubes coming at us.

Yeah. My love to see it is all my Knicks fans, friends. I love to see you guys. Welcome back. It's funny because I think the conventional wisdom about the ringer is that we all look like leprechaons sitting at the foot of the big leprechaun Bill Simmons just breaking down Jason Tatum tape all night long.

And the truth is, is that the. bringer, despite having employees spread far and wide across the country, offices on both coasts, and a lot of different perspectives is a fucking big New York media organization when you get down to it. Because the loudest, most emotional, most invested people at this company and across the board, I got to say, man, the Knicks fans, you guys make me love basketball because you're crazy the way you were reacting to Bobby Portis. and the way you're reacting to two, three games of R.J. Barrett.

But I love it. I love having the Knicks just briefly matter. The amount of time I've spent reading and talking about David Fisdale's rotations honestly pale in comparison to the amount of time I've spent talking about the Sixers. So congratulations for using your megaphone and turning it up to 11. And now we have to talk about Julius Randall. Justin, talk about the Knicks. Yeah, I feel like there's been a lot of talk around the office about like the point guard. rotation specifically. Which guy will get the minute? Is it Alfred Payton? Is it Dennis Smith Jr.? Is it Frank Nilequina? But ultimately, this is just a game of Russian roulette. Like, nobody actually wins. We just survive to play another day. Charks, what do you think about R.J. Barrett so far this season?

He's been better than I thought he would be. He's something really strong. And I'll have to agree with you. I hear about the Knicks and the Mets and the Jets constantly. I don't know why. It's horrible. He's so triggered right now. Yeah, so RJ, playing 37 minutes a game, running a lot of point guard, scoring 20 points a game, a 17.3 PR if that matters to you, just like immediately looks like an NBA player, which I guess is what you want from a Duke guy.

I mean, like, there's supposed to be a basement on how those guys play, if not like a high, high ceiling. Shout to Kyrie Irving. But I usually just assume, like, dudes who come from Duke are going to be like NBA ready, a Julio Okafore,

I think you're starting to see a little bit of a Kentucky Carl Towns era sort of thing where it's like, yeah, maybe if you have overlapping skills with like the number two prospect in the country, maybe don't go to the same school. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Interesting. Like he and Zion definitely. RJ and Zion definitely butted to the point where Zion was like off the ball a little bit too much. And RJ was often criticized for just like dominating the ball a little bit too much. But you're seeing as the Knicks play a little bit more into RJ this type of things that he can do.

Give me another love to see it here to see it, Justin. Well, mine was back to Anthony Davis. Specifically, one that you mentioned in our doc here, which is fans just kind of realizing how good this guy is. I would say it's different than that. I think it's people want to say that, but he has taken another leap. You love to see the next leap from Anthony Davis.

The number two MVP candidate. Right. The Walter Mondale of the MVP campaign race. Sure. That sounds about right. You're showing your rage there, Chris. I know. I know.

I'm going deep back into the 80s here. But so you think that like, have you noticed like an appreciable difference between on the attention paid for him or is it the way that people are talking about him? Because it's not like you couldn't get New Orleans games. Yeah, but I just don't think that while his rise was driven by these sort of like league pass alert moments where he was just doing incredible things, I think it quickly dissipated to the point where it was a lot of just mid-range jumpers and floaters, and he's, like, putting up a lot of points, but this isn't aesthetically as, like,

just riveting as a lot of people expected. Yeah. Now you're just seeing the same sorts of things. It's just he's playing for the Lakers and way more people care about the Lakers. Yeah, that definitely feels true. I noticed it was sort of interesting to see, look at Twitter a little bit last night because the Lakers were the sole late game, you know, so, and that's often, like, one of the benefits of playing on the West Coast is if you're Portland, if you're one of the L.A. teams,

if you're Golden State, sometimes you're going to have the night. slot to yourself and everybody who has Twitter and a television is watching you, the flip side of that is that half the country might have already gone to sleep. So I do kind of wonder whether or not that will impact whether or not people are always catching up with Davis on social media the next day or how many people are actually going to see those games. I still think he's probably top two three MVP candidate, you know, I mean, no matter what. But the other one would be Kauai and he's also in L.A. So he's going to have to deal with that too. And since he's taking tonight off, he's also going to have to compete against his own load management, right?

John, what do you think? What's your last love to see it? Hate to see it? I hate to see it. Harrison Barnes in Sacramento. Like, he's the nicest guy in the world. Love him off the court. But as soon as that happened last, I was like, this is a bad idea. He's going to tank this team. And I think it's happened. It's just tough, man. He's really good. I can't give him money. He's just not very good at basketball. It's tough. Yeah, it's been rough for the Kings here. Yeah. I don't know. know how they ever get out of this downward spiral, because if you're going to start from this

far behind, the West is just so stacked that, like, I think this matters. Losing four games, five, six, if it continues on, like, that matters. I have no, I have no stats to back this up, but I'm a huge believer in the first 10 games. Because, like, I basically base this, I'm basing this off of the year, the 2000, 2001 Sixers team that started the season 10 and O and went to the finals that season. Of course, to get rocked by the Lakers. But I believe that, like, It's an incredible tone-setter. And in the case of, like you're saying, with the Western Conference, where we've seen a game or two separate six from nine in the seating,

the Kings had their eye on that eight seed. And this is going to be really tough and also like Luke Walt Mottsey. Yeah, that looks like a terrible move now. There's nothing wrong with Dave Yeager except for the fact that... He's Dave Yeager. Yeah, that he is Dave Yeager intends to complain about things publicly make his organization look bad. Yeah.

Could I do one more love to see it because my first one was a little weak? Of course, man. Your first one was fine. Don't you ever say that about yourself? Always get more takes up, Justin. Just get him out there. This one is for you, Chris.

Okay. Because what I love to see is Ben Simmons. He's back. Fuck yes. He's back. Yes. The ghost of LeBron passed, man. Holy shit.

There's just like a little bit more room on the floor for him, especially when Embed didn't play that one game. And it's just, I think he's more engaged. I think it's gotten to him that like he needs to be this locked in defensive player and he needs to be pushing the ball when he gets it. And he's just really leaning into this idea that I've always loved about him. I think he took, I think he has a chip on his shoulder. Love it.

Took a lot of shit this summer. A lot of people being like, when are you going to shoot? What are you going to shoot? He's like, you want to know what? Watch what else I can do. I don't think is he taken to three this season? No. No three.

No three. So it's the, it's the combination of the chip on his shoulder. and then when it comes to being in the open floor, even more so than the previous seasons, it's on some, like, Neo, he's starting to believe shit. Because, first of all, he still makes passes nobody else in the league can make. Trey Young, step back, dude.

Like, Ben Simmons is still making, like, volleyball touch passes into the post. And I think it's basically an unstoppable transition player at this point and knows I can finish over anybody from any point in the floor. So, like, that is too. points once you gets ahead of steam. And it's up to you whether you want to foul him in the process or not. He is my favorite NBA player by far right now.

I love, love, love watching him play. And I think you're right. I think that there is something going on there. I love this journey for you. I'm sure it'll end really well. John, what do you think about Simmons so far this season? I mean, the Al Horford effect is real. Like having a stretch five.

I mean, it's just, it's like, it's just common sense. Like last year Simmons played with MB, Bobon, Monroe. there just no room from attack the rim. Now that he has Horford, they're staggering their minutes, Horford's playing with him a loud and Embed his resting,

and he has room to go. And now, let's just play the Bucks. When does that happen? When's that first Bucsixers game? Yeah, I just want to say, that's going to be the whole season. The Alford stuff,

I get it. I get it. I get it. Yeah. You don't get it unless you just watch him and you don't get it unless you see him

off the floor and see what happens, you know, the difference between watching him on the floor off the floor. You don't get it. until you see a dude just explode when he hits the sets a screen on him.

Or how he will get like a little play continuing tip to keep the ball up in the air so that another person grabs it in a way that like, I'm not saying that that never happened before, but he just actually does do everything that you don't count on the floor.

So you're saying they could trade and bead now? I'm not saying that. Chris, I am curious. I am curious. I think about Milwaukee Philly right now, that matchup. Do you have any strong opinions? My opinion is that

I'm not that scared. My opinion is I'm sure it would be a great series but my opinion is I think that they have intentionally built a Janus neutralizing team.

Oh, fighting words. We'll see. I don't know any Milwaukee fans so we'll... I'm sure they'll find me on Twitter. Shout out to the Utah fans. Oh, we didn't talk about Utah yet. Should we talk about Utah?

No. Okay. for Jonathan Charks, for Justin Barrier, I'm Chris Ryan. This has been group chat. We'll be back next week. Make sure you're subscribed to the Ringer NBA show. Heat Check on Monday, mismatch on Tuesday and Thursday, group chat on Wednesday, plus Bill and Rissolo talk about NBA all week.

We've got some great videos on our YouTube channel. It's YouTube.com slash The Ringer. Videos from Kyle Mann. Stuff from our Palozo will be having a lot more NBA video this season. And you can read Charks on The Ringer.com. And even sometimes Justin Verrier. Rational conversations.

He brushes off the typewriter and gets back in the mix. Thanks to Isaac Lee for producing. We'll talk to you next time. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.