The Ringer NBA Show - Reassessing Brandon Ingram’s Ceiling, Talking Zion’s Return, and Examining the Depth of Denver | The Mismatch

Episode Date: January 17, 2020

After Brandon Ingram scored 49 points to outduel Donovan Mitchell, we wonder whether it’s realistic to think he’s already better than Ben Simmons and on a path to be in the class of Anthony Davis (1:34). Then, we discuss Zion Williamson’s imminent return and what it could mean for night-to-night interest in the league (13:00). Finally, we close with some thoughts on how Denver has set itself up with a deep roster, and how this year’s NBA draft is shaping up to be a real stinker (29:10). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. This week, to celebrate the 100th episode of The Rewatchables podcast, Quentin, Quentin, returns for the third and final movie in his three-part series with us. In the final episode, Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey discussed with Quentin one of his favorite movies, the 1990 crime thriller King of New York. Make sure to check out this special episode and follow at The Rwatchables on Twitter for highlights of all 100 episodes. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon, and joining me as he does every Friday.

from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a. Kevin O'Bomber, A.K. Kevin O'C., Kevin O'Concrant, Kevin O'Conflint, Kevin O'Conflint, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Camp. Burnow, what's going on this Friday, buddy? Well, it seems as if there was a celebration in your home last night. With Brandon Ingram. Correct? Yes. Yeah, Brandon Ingram goes for 49, a monster night as the Pelicans ended the Jazz's 10-game win streak.

and you decided to do be Kevin O. Recall and call back show that we did a couple of months ago where you boldly proclaimed that Brandon Ingram is better than Ben Simmons. And so this was

a victory lap for you last night? Sure. If you want to call it a victory lap, sure. But when I originally said that two months ago, I viewed it as a way of doing what we've always done when talking

about players. We compare them to the guys that they were drafted against. That's no shot against Ben Simmons. He's a top 25, 30 guy. It's just so happens that so is Ingram now. And I think he's a top 20 guy right now. If not top 20, definitely top 25.

And like we compared Howard to a mecha Okafore when those guys are first drafted. We compare Wiggins to Parker to Embed. That's all this is. All right. Hold on now. Okay. Hold on.

Let me take a 20 second time out. How do you respond to those that say, Ingram is, yes, a far superior score, far superior, but he's also the better defender, he is the better passer, and he's the better rebounder. Simmons. Yeah, that's what I mean, yes. I would say this raises a philosophical question and how do you weigh offense versus defense, with Ingram being the far superior score than Simmons is, and Simmons being the better playmaker and the better defender?

what do you weigh there in terms of importance? For me, when I look at Brennan Ingraham, I think we can all agree. Ingram is a far superior score. He has become a dynamic three-level score who can get to the rim, draw files, finish against length, who can pull up for mid-range. He can shoot from three off the catch or off the dribble.

He is a three-level score. He's better. It's a passer. Ingram ever since college, ever since he was at Duke, one of the big reasons why I had him ranked number one was because of his playmaking ability and we saw that

in last night's game down the stretch with him feeding Derek favors the jazz were pressuring Engram Moore forcing him to get the ball out of his hands and he was delivering accurate passes to favors. He's done that all season long and when Zion comes back he's going to be even better as a playmaker

so I think Ingraham is a better playmaker than he gets credit for as for defense Simmons is one of the best in the league that's undeniable he is a four or five position defender who at this point in his career tries consistently hard, who is smart, active off ball. There's not much more that you could want from a defensive player in today's league than what Ben Simmons brings to the floor.

Ingram, last year with the Lakers, he was good. This year with the Pelicans, he has not been good. He's also defending larger players this year rather than facing more wings than he did in the past couple years with the Lakers. I think with Williamson back, we're going to see Ingram's defense. improve a bit. He's not great. He's solid. He hasn't shown it all this year, but I think he's solid enough that his offense outweighs, not just Simmons, but a lot of guys in this league. He's an all-star. I would vote him as an all-star reserve this year. And with Williamson coming back

next week on the 22nd against the Spurs, I think we're going to see these guys improve each other, maybe beyond what we expected, even in the preseason, because of this real leap Ingram has made. All right, one quick thing, I will tell you, Kevin, that it is not just you that value, you know, when you say value, it depends on what you value, do you value scoring ability? It's not just you. Guess who else value scoring ability? The NBA, you know, and I am, I am a defense guy. I love the defenders. But I talked to Tony Allen about this weekly. Like, there's not a place for those guys right now in the league. Being great at defense is not the trait. that gets you on the court anymore. And there are guys like Tony who were a little bit before, like, this all happened. So you still had a place in the league. And we're just talking about five, six years ago.

Whereas now, and then there were guys that were a little bit before their time. Like Kevin Martin would average 35 points a game now. Like the way you stop Kevin Martin from scoring was because you put your hands on him and got tough with him, right? And guys like that was space. I mean, if he's playing now, it's a different ball game for somebody like him.

And so I would just tell you, yeah. What about someone like Matisse Thibel? The question coming into the draft and into the season with the Sixers was, can he bring enough offensively, even though he's this all-world defensive player? That wouldn't even be a conversation years ago. And thankfully for Philly and thankfully for Thibel, his offense has been quite good within his role. He has been shooting the ball well. But that wouldn't even be a conversation years ago.

during the days of TA. Oh, no. Think about all those guys, Bruce Bowen. I mean, you could go on and on of guys that made a living being great defenders.

It's like, I mean, Pat Bev is like kind of the last of a dying breed, you know, and he brings you something offensively. Yeah, he does.

It's not like he's a net negative. It's not like you can just leave him, you know, alone completely, right? I mean, and he can handle the ball a bit for you. He's a good spot-up three-point shooter. But like,

the And, Robbersons of the world, those guys, if he's ever ever able to get back, the questions that were asked of him in the past, like him being an offensive liability, the league has changed a lot since he was really last healthy, even more.

All right, and this is the other thing I wanted to ask you. I want to test you on this. I want to see how wild you'll get with the Ingram thing, okay? Now, let me say this off the bat. 49 last night on 25 or fewer shots. Before turning 23 years old, there's only two guys in the

history of the league that have done that. And there's Shaquille O'Neal and Karim Abdul-Jabbar. So what he did, what he did last night was truly spectacular, right? Like, it's just, it's very, very, very, very uncommon. That being said, we know about the huge trade and there was all kinds of guys involved. Do you think there is any chance that when the book is closed, that Brandon Ingram could have a career similar to and or on par with Anthony Davis. And before I say that, before you answer, I will tell you that if he never played another game tomorrow,

he's been a six-time All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, that doesn't matter. Three-time first-team, All-NBA, NBA, NBA, all-defensive first team, two-time a defensive second team. He's led the league in blocks three times. Obviously, you know, he's had an outstanding career thus far. I mean, they're different types of players with Davis being. a big and Ingram being a more... Do you think Ingram could be a six-time

All-Star with multiple first team all-NBA spot? Sure. Wow. I think the all-star aspect, that all-NBA, that's hard to say because again, we're talking positions. We're talking about Davis being voted in

as center or front court. Ingram will just be listed as front court. And this is, I don't want to get into this. This is the inherent problem with positions in all NBA. I argued last you in an article that we should remove positions from all NBA because of the actual increased probability

that you have when you list a guy at both spots. But that's a conversation. That's a conversation for a different day. Well, no, no, no. I just, just real quickly. They should do it like All-Star. Back court, front court. That's it. Why bother with either? Like, why have it at all? Like, where do you put LeBron?

Where do you put Ben Simmons? Where do you put these big guys who handle the ball lot and are essentially point guards for your team when they are like what do you value here? Is it is the positional designation for offense only or does it include defense

because if it's defense then you might be talking about Ben Simmons as a front court player you think it should be able to be usually you think the first team should be able to be five guards. I don't care it doesn't matter I think I think it should be the five best guys then then six to ten for a second

team NBA then the then 11 to 15 for a third team I don't think the position should matter. And I think that should be changed, especially with the way the game is today, where literally size does not indicate the way in which you are used. Well, the other thing is this, Kev, especially when, you know, you're talking like hundreds of millions of dollars on the line when these guys write it into their contracts. I mean, you remember the whole Kamba thing with Charlotte.

And it was like, that was like people were on watch. Is he going to make an all NBA team? Because if he makes an all NBA team, he's standing. to make an extraordinary amount more, which he did, by the way. Sure, even though he left. Yeah, right, I understand. He had the opportunity to, let's just say that. He had the opportunity to.

Anyway, how wild is this last night in that particular game? I told you how rare it was for what Ingram did. Also, just the fourth time in the last 10 years that two opposing players have scored 45 in the same game because it's not, you know, it bears mentioning that Donovan Mitchell went off in that game too. That was a fun battle. This tells you about where, but we'll probably see this more often.

One of those was actually earlier this year in that ridiculous Rockets Wizards game where Hardin had 59 and Beale had 46. But it is very rare to get guys going for 45 plus in the same game. And that did happen last night. I love seeing those guys go back and forth last night. There is a sequence towards the end of the fourth quarter where, think it was three, four possessions in a row where Ingram and Mitchell scored is great. And I think the streak is broken by Frank Jackson on a drive to the basket.

But what a great game between Utah, a team that has found themselves lately, as we've discussed recently in the podcast, and then New Orleans, a team that is going to have Williamson back next week and is also starting to find themselves despite some injuries with Drew Holiday, especially being out last night. it's encouraging to see the palacans continuing to have a positive trajectory forward into Zion's return because the impact he could make on this team I think is quite quite significant as I wrote about this week on the mirror well let me say this and I don't want that game was almost marred because and I don't want the jazz hive to jump on me but that was incredible bullshit that took place at the end of that game oh I know that was point two seconds and they call a foul on jet point two

I mean, and theoretically, I mean, thank God, Gobert and missed one of the free throws as to send it in overtime. I mean, that would have been just wrong. Just wrong. Yeah. Point two. I know. I know. I mean, that was gross.

It was, oh my God. And I don't give a damn what the last two minute report says. I don't care. That's wrong. That's wrong. I mean, ultimately the team that should have. They're all jocelyn. Ultimately, the team that should have won the game did win the game.

and now they find themselves three and a half back from the eight seed, your Memphis Grizzlies. Oh, and can you imagine what would have taken place a couple, especially because it was just like a week and a half ago, you had Ingram driving to the basket down two and Gobert hacks him. And then the two-minute report comes out and says, Gobert hacked him.

I mean, that would have been two that were absolutely stolen from the pelicans. Yeah. And they're, you know, I mean, look, they're scratching clawing. And a lot of these projections, Like, you know, you look at the formulas that are put together for playoff odds. There's a lot of them that really still like the Pelicans

when they get their full roster, including Zion back. As they should. As they should. Very well may should. Zion, by the way, we expected him to come back, possibly last night. And then he's not going to be back for this weekend. And then, of course, Monday,

nationally televised game against the Memphis Grizzlies on Martin Luther King Day. And the Pelicans announced he is coming back on Tuesday. Fuck, book, buck, buck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Are you serious? They don't want to put him on the same court with John Moran. I promise you that. They don't want that being your first game back, brother.

No, sir. I think for New Orleans, it makes sense to bring him back on Wednesday against San Antonio, rather than putting, just dropping him on national TV. It makes sense. Would you want Jada come back for the first time midseason? on national TV. Would you rather ease him in? Like, look, they're going to face Denver.

I'm sorry. They're going to face San Antonio on Wednesday. Then they face Denver on Friday, two tough teams. And then on Sunday, ESPN national TV game against Boston. They're going to have him on national TV soon. I know this, knowing the kid, you'd have to strap him down like they tried to Hannibal Lecter. That's the only way he wouldn't play.

Are you kidding? I mean, Kevin. Good luck keeping Zion strapped down. No, I'm talking about Jai. Oh, John. That's who I'm talking about. I'm saying they'd have to strap him down to get him to not play the game. So it wouldn't matter what I want.

Look, I've seen him run over to a heat bench and say, tell that MF my, the rookie of the years, mine talking about Kendrick Nunn. I saw him the other night, back off James Hardin and say, tell that MF, he better hear about me. I mean, you want to talk about a competition? Like, you would have to, he's there for it. There's nothing more he would love than to be in his, first game against Zion Williams and trust me

and I know it's it's a Pelican decision it's not Zion's for God takes Zion's bored out of his mind he's falling asleep on the bench he can't take it anymore the guy fell asleep during the damn game in the fourth quarter that was pretty funny

anybody that doesn't know referring to is at the end of the Detroit game on Monday he could be seen on the bench just kind of dozing off but last night though he was up excited pumping his fist, screaming, yelling. I'll tell you this, man.

I think his return has been a bit underrated. And I think it's because people are afraid and understandably so, are afraid of overreacting to the small sample size of the preseason. But what he did in preseason, though, was historic stuff. 31 points per 36 minutes on 71% shooting. He was finishing like Janus against at the rim, against guys like Go Bear. he had a big game against the Utah Jazz in the preseason.

He was very good against Pertle on the Spurs, his final game in the preseason. What Zion brings to this team, man, he's going to get them into the penalty more. He's going to score inside. They rank low in points of the paint. They rank low and drawn fouls. Two areas, he's going to help boost this half court offense a ton. And as good as they are on the break in the open floor, they have sputtered in the half court. Over the course of the year, they've been better.

they've been much better in recent weeks, partially because they're finding themselves in the half court. But Zion's going to boost them even more on that end. And boy, like, I'm excited to see the impact that he can make on Ingram. I'm excited to see what he can do for Lonzo and Holiday. This team has a real, real shot of making a push for that 8C, along with Memphis and San Antonio and some of the other teams in that conversation. It's going to be a real fun race down the stretch.

The reason I kind of like the Pelicans is, well, all right, First on the Zion thing, I see all these teams come through town. There's so many that go small, right? And if you don't have like a formidable big guy, and you were talking about formidable big guys, like guys that have real size in the league that he has bullied. Go there, man. He had no fear.

No fear. And the smaller ones, though, like there was a preseason game. I mean, God, it looked like my guy, Ed Davis was like a child. You know what I mean? And I mean, when you're doing stuff like that, to guys that are like veteran big men. I mean, unless you've got some real size in there and even then it seems not to matter, I'm with you.

Look, we all thought he was a transcendent talent and I have not changed that opinion at all. I can't wait to see him back. In fact, I was shocked. How about that article that you just wrote about him and him coming back? I was stunned to read those numbers about the Google searches. Oh, the Google and YouTube search data. So explain that for people that did not read your article, there was, this is since injured, right? You took the data from since he's been injured, not like.

So this is, this will include preseason, but I'll say both. So since October 1st, start of the preseason for most teams, Zion has slightly more Google web searches than Yonis sent to the Kumbo and James Hardin. He has more YouTube searches than Janus and Lucas. Donchich. I mean, that is unbelievable with just preseason numbers. If you're looking at regular season, it's slightly less. But the fact is, is that he's still getting web searches and YouTube searches comparable to guys that are having MVP caliber seasons, despite not playing. And if you look at, if you look at the search numbers just during the preseason, what the level Zion was registering there, it's pretty close to what Luca and Janus has.

have done during the regular season. So with Zion back, I am going to be real curious to see what it looks like in terms of interest and popularity for him. Like his first game, it would not shock me at all if he's putting up LeBron-like Google and YouTube web search numbers. And the reason why I find that interesting is just because for the NBA, we've talked so much about ratings and we're talking about like what happens when LeBron retires, who are the guys that are representing the league?

obviously Janus and obviously Luca, but Zion already entered the league, already entered Duke for that matter, with over a million Instagram followers, this crazy online following. He's one of those players that can appeal to people who love the dunks. They love drama.

They like to follow the game on social media. But I think he's going to be such a really fascinating player in the context of the league today that he's going to be real interesting to people that care about, talking about the future of the game, and how much change. and how like a front court works with Ingram and Zion compared to Ingram and Zion and favors

and how do you build the best Pelicans roster? He is a player that will be interesting to everybody at all extremes of basketball. And I think he could be a guy that really does represent this league. And I'll say this in terms of the Pelicans' chances, obviously they're very good. And the reason I think they're good is because not only do they bring him back, but they got depth. You know what I mean? Like they've got some guys that they can bring off the bench that can do something. And I know the Grizzlies have been the hot story right now.

But and people, you know, the John Moran stuff, Jared Jackson, all the, you know, Brandon Clark's been a great rookie, whatever. The reason that the Grizzlies have ran off, you know, this wind streak and the reason that they've been so good since like really December 9th is their bench. Their bench malls people. Like at Tyos Jones, at De Anthony Melton and Brandon Clark, Kyle Anderson. Like this group, they kill people when they're out on the court. because most of these teams, you know what I mean?

They're paying a couple really great players. Their bench is awful. They bring in their bench and their bench is not good players. And so the lack of depth for so many of these teams, like for instance, I even saw it the other night with Houston. Like, if you go look, that game that the Grizzlies beat the Rockets on national television that night, they were a plus with Hardin on the floor and they got killed with Hardin off the floor.

And he wasn't even, and he was only a lot. And he was only off the floor for a couple of minutes. Well, I was going to say in Houston essentially only had a seven-man rotation. Memphis went 10 deep. Right. And that's partially because Westbrook was out, but still. That is that Houston has more of a shallow rotation. I mean, look, Memphis didn't even play crowded that night because he was out.

They were deep. And so this is the thing with the, and you see it with the bucks. And they've got a plus 12 point differential. But it ain't just Janus. I mean, Janice goes to the bench. Their bench buries people. You know what I mean? And so I do think that, you know, the deeper you are, especially as the season goes on,

because you can not only withstand an injury and you've got the opportunity with a lot of these good teams or teams that have been good, they've had to lose, you know, key role players and guys that were just good players that maybe even came off their bench. And so they just can't even hold the fort down. at all. They can't even play you even when their bench is in the game against some of the better teams. Speaking of yesterday, one of those teams, that's one of the seven teams that's going to be battling for the eight seed made a trade. And that was the Minnesota Timberwolves. They moved Jeff Teague back to Atlanta where, I mean, that was the craziest thing ever. I'll get to this in a second.

But they move into Atlanta. It's the Alan Crabb deal. And I guess they got Trevion Graham also in that deal. But if you go back in time, it's wild the way sometimes this all ends up working out, Kev. You have that Jeff Teague, when he was originally traded from the Hawks. It was the Hawks traded him to Indiana, right, in a three-team deal. Atlanta got Torrine Prince from Utah. Then the Hawks traded Prince to the Nets this offseason for Alan Crabb and two first-round picks, right?

And then the Hawks traded Alan Crabb to Minnesota for Jeff Teague. I mean, it's unbelievable how that all ended up working out. But I think the general reaction from all of us to cover the NBA was, okay, Minnesota, like, they still have playoff dreams. This clearly like makes them, you know, it doesn't make them better, right? So this is for something else. This deal was made for the open roster spot and the crab salary to move somewhere else. So now we got to figure out where the somewhere else is.

Well, I reported yesterday that they aren't done. They are in the search for another ball handler. I know Sham Sharania of the athletic reported that they are going hard after the original Russell. I would not expect that to happen based off what I've heard in recent weeks. Why not? Because Minnesota doesn't have enough assets unless you're dumping a bunch of future first round picks. But even then, I think Golden State would rather wait and see what it looks like with Russell, Steph and the back court together and then reassess with the draft where you know your pick is.

And maybe more options are available to flip Russell at that point if you trade them at all. What if it's Crabb, Covington, and a pick? I wouldn't expect that to happen. And for Minnesota, though, they are indeed, though, shopping Covington, as you said. But they're asking for a lot. And I am not exactly sure what the next move is from Minnesota. I heard they inquired about Aaron Holiday. I heard those talks went nowhere.

I do not know what's next for Minnesota. But I do think with Alan Crabb, it's interesting because he is making $18.5 million with an expiring deal. You could flip him. theoretically he is a guy who could be a buyout candidate at some point if he continues a struggle however for minnesota he does make you feel covington can be a little bit more expendable if you do feel confident that crab could be better within your system he is a historically good three point shooter 39% throughout his career he's just struggled this season maybe you feel

like he can be something for and the season before i mean i mean he's he's been a long time Is it Alicrabs done anything? I know, I know. But I'm just saying, like, maybe you can feel a little bit better about training a wing defender like Covington, a wing 3-and-D guy in Covington. So for, for Minnesota, you could see them going a number of directions here. But the bottom line is they are looking for a ball handler, some type of guard, playmaker of some sort of size, whether it's a smaller dude or a bigger dude. They need another playmaker. And that's what they're looking for.

I just don't think it'll be Russell based off what I've heard. Wow. All right. Well, you kind of shot that down. but I mean, you know, they wanted him so bad in the off season. You just think they don't have the goods to be able to put together a deal. It's both things. I think Golden State, unless an offer is overwhelming,

I think they would prefer to reassess during the off season when more potential deals could be out there. When you have sign and trade possibilities, like they just did last year with the KD for Russell deal, the double sign and trade. There's more potential deals that will be available at that point than there would be now. Plus, you would know where your pick is and have an idea of your full range of options,

building forward with Draymond and Steph and Clay. Right now, I think they're in a standing pattern where they want to see how things go with this young team when Steph comes back and figure it out after. I think that's best for them. And my understanding is that's what they're thinking to, unless something is so overwhelming that you do it now, it's not like DeAngelo is untradable.

He's not an untouchable player, but I just don't expect that deal to be there from the Minnesota Tim Wolves. Yeah, it's just hard to think, you know, like, geez, you know, where do you, like, you try to find a guard that teams would just be willing to give up on or think that has too big of a contract or isn't helping them anyway. And it's not easy to find, you know, even, you know, I'm just doing a cursory look around the league in terms of something that you could, like, that would rather have like a Covington or whatever and crab and somebody with a big salary, right? Especially if, you know, you know, Toronto's not getting off of Kyle Lowry or you know that, you know, Oklahoma City, you know, very well may not get off of Chris Paul now. I don't know. They're not easy.

It's not easy to come by. Yeah, we're talking about like the DJ Augustines of the world and Corey Joseph, right? You're talking about somebody like that or you're looking to maybe to reacquire somebody like Derek Rose. That's what maybe you're looking for. But all I know is that I've consistently heard since last summer. that Minnesota prefers to go young. And of the guys I listed, none of them exactly makes sense. So for the Timberwolves,

Russell is clearly your number one target. And it is true, they have gone for him and will continue to go for him. But I think the offer would need to be quite overwhelming for the goal and say to pull the trigger on a deal now. Even if they included their first round pit? I think you need to give more than that at this point. I guess it just depends on how good you get they're going to be.

This draft is not that good. So for Minnesota, I mean, if you slip into the eight Cs, then the pick is 15 or 16, that pick is not much value, nor is it much value if it's nine or 10 where it is now. I would be quite surprised if that was enough. I think you need to give more future picks. A couple other things we need to touch on.

The Nuggets are losing Jamal Murray for some time. Now, the benefit for the Nuggets is they've got a bunch of good players, right? As we talked about. And, you know, they've got guys who don't suck, as you said. Yeah. And they've got guys that get. bring off the bench that can help get them by. But there's a difference between getting by and having a pretty good record

and being able to lock down and stay up in those higher seeds. Because I think it is, like, I think this year, unlike, you know, some of the years in the past, like, there is just a massive value to be able to getting that two seed. I think we, you know, most people think that the clippers and the Lakers will be the first and second seed, but just by virtue of being two, you know you wouldn't have to play the Lakers until the last round. If we assume they are the hardest to play, I mean, it may turn out the Clippers are the hardest one to play.

But I certainly would, you know, I think this is true in both, in both conferences, that whoever gets the two, you don't have to see the best team until the finals. And that there is a huge value to that. and again, it may be a little different in the West than it is in the East. But certainly, staying in the two in the East might get you to get you a chance to get to the Western Conference Finals, whereas if you're in that four or five game, your second round,

you're playing against Milwaukee, you know, with them with home court advantage. Well, I mean, and on with that. Let's say the Lakers were to get knocked off on the second round and you win the second round if you're Denver, well, then you get home court. in the Western Congress finals. So the higher seed is of more importance anyway, whether you do you think the Lakers or Clippers are a tougher matchup anyway? And for Denver and last night's game without Jamal Murray, how nice is it to see Malik

Beasley and Michael Porter Jr. perform the way they did off the bench. The team with depth and young depth. And Beasley, of course, is a restricted free agent this summer. And teams want him. Teams have inquired about him, including the Philadelphia 76ers. if I'm Denver and I'm seeing the way he's had big games like he did last night with Tony 7 points, it's kind of hard to let go of somebody like that who can do that off your bench when you have finals aspirations. But they just haven't used them at all.

I know and that's the tough part, man. Like he's been averaging 16, 17 minutes per game in the last month. He doesn't play a ton. Kev, you know this. They're losing it for nothing. If they don't get something for him, I mean, unless there's some kind of a sign of trade that goes on in the awesome. season, you know, it stands to reason.

They're going to lose them for nothing. What if that's what it was? I mean, that's what I mean. Like, there is a logic to Denver keeping Beasley. There's a logic to Oklahoma City keeping Gallinari because there's so little cap space out there, these guys may prefer to be sign and traded to a particular team. And I think that is something that could be a popular decision teams make entering the trade deadline, a popular decision for players during the.

off season as well. That's fascinating. You know, I, from what I've heard of come, you just play it out with Bogdanovic, you play it out with Beasley, you play it out with Joe Harris, you play it out with,

you know, guys that you might get nothing in return for, but the idea that you just get totally nothing in return for, maybe we need to change our mind on that because, I mean, hell, we just saw it, we just talked about DeAngelo Russell being a warrior.

He is only a warrior by virtue of Katie leaving turning into a trade. Absolutely. Yeah. And you think that could become more common. Well, and because there's so little cap space out there. There's only five or six teams that are going to have over $10 million of cap space. So there's limited guys that are worth a lot of money. And for some of these guys like Bleeckisley especially,

how much would he really get from some of these teams? Is he going to get what he expected in the high tens of millions of dollars? Maybe not. But maybe he could if a sign, if a team is willing to sign. and trade an expiring player with a pick or another young player for Beasley. And I think you open up more options if you're one of these guys

and you're open to a sign and trade. And for a team, they could benefit from that. I think the opinion around the NBA is still pretty high of Beasley. I think there are teams that are out there that think he have given the opportunity, when given the opportunity and when he got to play a lot last year, boy, he was awesome,

Kevin. You know, I'm a, I'm a Beasley hive guy. I love him. I've coveted. him for the last couple of years. And I think he is much better than he has shown this year. Me too. I'm with you. I'm with you. And also one other thing though, just on that topic, if you're Beasley, right? Right now, the teams that project to have cap space are Atlanta, Memphis, New York, Cleveland, Charlotte, Portland, and Phoenix. Those are the seven teams that project to have money. That can change, of course. But that's only seven teams, man. Like there's

there's 22 other teams besides Denver that you may want to choose to go to. So sign and trades could be a preferable decision for these guys. You think playing next to John Morant with Jerry Jackson would be enticing? I know. I think like if I'm looking at Memphis this summer and I know like there's appeal to waiting until 2021 when there's bigger fish out there, but a lot of those bigger fish could resign in their markets and it could turn out that the time to strike could be in 2020 with some of the more third level guys for a roster and building a round.

you're blossoming in stars and Jaron Jackson and John Morant or for Atlanta and Tray Young. I mean, I think for a team like New York, it's worth waiting. I think for teams like that, like even for someone like Phoenix, I think this might be a time to add a guy.

For Portland with 18 million might be time to add a guy. It's interesting too because, right? So Beasley plays in this game against Golden State. He ends up with 39 minutes and he gets some 27 points, as you mentioned. I mean, this season has been, an absolute disaster for him because, I mean, he's averaging seven points a game. He doesn't even, I mean, that speaks to the depth of that Nuggets team.

This guy doesn't even get on the course until recently Porter Jr. didn't get on the court. And you've seen what he's capable. I mean, they got guys that don't even play that can go out there and score 25 points in a given night. It's insane. And some of these teams, their benches are just awful. they're riddled with guys that maybe shouldn't even be in the NBA and might not next year. Whereas Denver,

they got guys that bring off their damn bench, they can give you 25. It's a nice problem to have, isn't it? Yes. As long as chemistry doesn't go off the rails. If there's ever a team, like typically,

if you say like, oh, they're going to be without Jamal Murray for the foreseeable future, like, oh man, they may really fall back. But like,

they've just got another guy that could go out there and get them 25. You know, that's just, that speaks to the job they've done there. Unbelievable job, seriously. Unbelievable. Because they have just mega talent. When you got guys like Beasley and Porter collecting dust because they don't even play, good grief. I mean, those guys could start all over the league.

Seriously. Like how many two guards would keep their position over Beasley? It ain't probably half the league. you know and and Porter Jr. How many teams would love to plug him in? Sheesh. At the beginning of the season, so you got to,

you got to do your little victory parade on the Ingram stuff last night, right? Sure. Yeah, it was fun. I had a fun time. Yeah. It was a fun to watch. Look, look,

it's always fun to see young players blossom. And for Ingram, it's especially fun. And it was bold, right? It was a little bold for you to say this. mine not as much bold, but I did have a sense of victory lap yesterday. Do you know why?

Tell me why, Chris. I want to hear it. Because I read the Kyrie Irvin comments. Oh, geez. When I said at the beginning of the season, he's going to ruin the net, I,

oh my God. All right. So he comes out after the game, you know, he plays this, his return game, after what was the most bizarrely reported injury,

I can remember. Like, I don't even, like, I remember the week of, like, the return to Boston game, which is forever ago. And it was like, it was in the balance, whether he was going to play or night, right?

And then, like, a month later, he was still not playing. And I'm like, what's going on here? He came back and was shot out of a cannon. He was unbelievable. And then the next game back, I guess they're one and two since he came back.

Then he goes back, and he is six for 21. and they lose and he goes to the media and he says it is glaring that they need more pieces and then does the uh,

ho-hum, we're going to do the best with what we have now and worry about moving pieces down the line and in the summer, you know, this is something, you know, we signed up for,

like, kind of knew I was going to be playing with a bunch of shitty players. Uh, he's like, oh, and he says, and then he says,

you know, DJ, KD, G.T. I guess Garrett Temple, he threw in there. That was nice for Garrett. Spent, Karris, and myself, you know, and obviously,

you know, everybody pounces on, well, like, hey, what about Joe Harris and Jared Allen and like all these other guys that are on the team? But it is unfathomable to me that he would go to the media and say this. Like, honestly, unfathomable. After he just came back,

after a month and then him talking about how it's so glaring, what else they need. When, by the way, you should be getting like one of the five best players in the league back. Let's assume he comes back from Achilles' injury and is Kevin Durant again? Like, you're adding Kevin Durant to the mix. Is that not enough? Like, you're going to be adding him. But it just, it just felt like he was shitting on people to me. it's the type of thing where even if Kyrie's 100% right about every single word he said as a leader

it's not the right approach to tell this to the media just not because your teammates here your teammates read about it and that is not healthy for our locker room the net's last season had unbelievable chemistry a team that really loved each other bought into the system played for each other and this season something's different they're not passing the ball as much movement's not the same the culture's not the same name for the Brooklyn Nets. And that's partially because of the team in transition, partially because their best player,

Kyrie was out, partially why, you know, Katie, you know he's out for the whole season. But fact is that for Kyrie, this was a year for him to, again,

like it was in Boston, to prove himself as a leader. And he has not changed. And that's concerning moving forward. When he's going to be the voice of this younger roster, I worry about that. I really, I really,

really worry about that for the Nets. are a lot of Kyrie fans and there are a lot of Kyrie truthers out there. And let me just say this. Let me explain this to you on a human level. Let's just say you, Kevin. We're not saying that this is a basketball strange. This is workplace strange. It would be the equivalent of you coming on the pod.

And I said, hey, Kevin, you know, I heard the clicks are down. I heard the page views. They've gone down a lot. And you're like, yeah, they are. but I mean, I've talked to Bill and, I mean, we'll just, you know, I kind of knew what I was signing up for and we're going to change some things, you know, might change some things in the summer, but it's pretty glaring, you know, we need some different stuff.

I mean, and then you walked into the office, people would be like, what the hell, man? Like, what? And you walk back into the locker room. Don't you think, like, if you, imagine you're one of the other guys. You're like, bro, what? Like, like. Thanks.

You know what I mean? Like, hey, we'll move some stuff in the off season. Are you talking about me? Like, are you talking about me? Like, I'm the problem here. I mean, it's just, and the other thing is, sense of perspective. He went six for 21 and they lost.

You know what I mean? Like, it's different. If you go, you know, 18 for 22 and you laid it all out on the line and you still came up short, like I actually, you know who I, you know who I empathize with? Trey Young, that's who I empathize with. This poor guy, he goes to the locker, but he's like, bro, like, I mean, when he goes to

the bench, I read Kevin Peltons thing the other day, and Kevin Pelton said, when Trey Young goes to the bench, the Hawks might as well just take a shot clock violation every time and set up their defense. I mean, that's a guy that you can sit there and listen to like, man, we need some help. Because they're probably all looking around going, yeah, you're right, man. We need some help. Yeah, Trey can say we need some help. I think for Karee, he's learned a lot from Kobe and LeBron.

But here's the problem. Kyrie, you're not Kobe or LeBron. Those guys can operate the way they did with Kobe saying mama mentality. You need to create conflict. LeBron always passively aggressively talking about teammates through the media those guys are some of the greatest players of all time which Kyrie Irving is not

and I think that's why it's able to work for them but for Kyrie no it just doesn't you're not that level of player where you can carry a team through that unnecessary adversity and it's unfortunate because Kyrie is so good on the court

and he has performed at the highest of levels as we've seen in the finals but this really hurts him and his value as a player because of what he is to a locker room. And for the Nets, I look at their roster and it's like, they have good players, man. They have a good team.

They do. They were good last year. They made the postseason. This year, it's still a lot of those same guys are there, but something's different in that locker room. The chemistry is not the same on the court. And hopefully they're able to figure things out.

And hopefully it doesn't turn into a situation for them where Kyrie and Katie are demanding guys. be traded for older veterans that are buddies with them, like DJ having to sign them too, when Jared Allen should be playing more minutes, getting even more opportunity. I hope that isn't what's coming next summer for the Nets. Because right now they have some talent. Last few things. Tell me about Seku Dumboya, the draft pick from the Pistons, who I know that you have,

you have even conjured up a name like Siakam already on him. Yeah, so on the ringer, we did a short little minute 30 video about Sanko de Bui, the Pistons rookie drafted 15th this year. He was a guy who you looked at him last year playing in France and you're like, he's not going to be an impact player for years. But with Detroit, he scored 24 against Boston this week. He scored 16 against the Pelicans. And he just looks like a better overall player.

He's putting in more consistent effort. his shot looks even smoother. His handle looks tighter. He's a guy that is clearly, clearly put in the work. And for Detroit, obviously with Drummond Mae, maybe being traded, maybe being lost in free agency for that matter, with Blake Griffin, who knows what his future looks like, it's tough times. But with Seku performing the way he has and showing the Siakum-esque flashes that he has,

it at least gives you something encouraging for a player that you might want to build around moving forward because what he's done in limited opportunities, only six games is encouraging because I don't think I couldn't have expected this this soon and I don't think anybody could have expected him to perform the way he has this soon. So good for Detroit to have something positive to look at this season. All right. Last thing, we have lamented the fact that this upcoming NBA draft has just been, you know, murdered for all intents of purposes this season with so many of the top prospects unavailable. You know, Cole Anthony's gotten hurt,

and James Wiseman, you know, decided he didn't want to play college basketball anymore. And Lamello Ball and R.J. Hanthor were playing overseas. And now we hear, you know, and I kept saying, hey, I can't wait until the spring. And then I'll really, you know, that'll be the best gauge when they get into the even their highest level games to watch an R.J. Hampton Because he'll look a lot different to watch a lamello ball. And Hampton's had injuries too.

And now it's announced yesterday, Lamello's done. So now what do we do, Kevin? Like, this is, not only is this draft not as strong as it has been in the past, it also becomes even more difficult to evaluate. Yeah, especially somebody like Lamello ball playing only 12 games. And those 12 games were quite a mixed bag, too. Like, his passing ability, there's no doubt that's transcendent. Like, it can become transcendent if he continues getting,

better right now as a teenager improving his decision making over time. The vision is there that not a lot of guys have. But some of the decision making, predetermining his moves on drives, hurts him with his shot selection and the choices he makes. His perimeter shooting has always been inconsistent. Is that something that's solvable for him? He does have pretty good touch on floaters. He's a pretty solid free throw shooters. So those are positive indicators. But that's never a guarantee of a guy improving his form and he needs to find consistency with his form. There's big questions with him despite the positives with the passing ability and that those questions apply to so many guys in this draft and I kind of wonder and I haven't done rankings

yet like last year I'm trying to wait until closer to the draft to actually put guys in order. I have guys in groups right now but I wonder if in the end I will and I wonder if others will default to a guy who's maybe a bit safer, like a Tyrese Halliburton, somebody like him, if you're going to feel like, oh, I think this guy can be a solid player because he has the passing ability

and he's a smart, high IQ player, and he's got a better spot-up jumper. Or maybe even someone like Isaac O'Coro from Arburn. Somebody like him, he looks like a better overall, more reliable player. He's so good on defense. His shot is not great, but it's solid. He's a good decision maker.

I wonder if guys like Halliburton and Okoro are going to rise up the rankings and become clear top five, six, seven guys when everybody else seems to have big question marks about what they are. Well, and here's like one of the super crazy things, Kev, is how many of these guys are we going to see in the highest level games? Because even some of those guys, like, I don't know if Anthony Edwards is going to be in the tournament. That Georgia team might not make the tournament. I mean, Obie Topping from Dayton, you know, probably in a tournament. tournament, it'll be there. Cole Anthony, probably not. That North Carolina team sucks, unless they win like the ACC tournament.

I'm not sure. Vernon Carey at Duke. Even Iowa State, I just mentioned Hallibur. They're eating eight. They're only eating eight. Yeah, Nico Manion at Arizona. I mean, it's just, it's bleak, a precious to chew at Memphis. I mean, it's bleak in terms of, you know, so many times we get to see.

And I know there are those that we didn't see in the tournament. But generally we see a lot of these guys playing very high-level games. We watch DeAndre Aiton get his ass handed to him by Buffalo. We watch, you know, Jaron Jackson and Miles Bridges team. You get knocked out by Syracuse or Marvin Bagley and that group and Wendell Carter and that group playing in the NCAA tournament. It's kind of crazy. Like this year, like not only are there guys that aren't playing college basketball,

the ones that are playing college basketball aren't on good teams. This is awful, awful in terms of like going to, like, you know, say like one of these conference tournaments or one of these pods and thinking you're seeing a bunch of NBA prospects. Like you're probably not this year. It reminds me of the 2013 drafts in the sense that there was some solid talent. And there could be some surprises in the draft. Of course, that year, Anthony Bennett going number one. it could be that type of year where there are going to be some good players to come out of the draft, because as there always are, it's just a matter of finding those guys and targeting those guys,

because there's always talent. So it's a matter of projecting forward and making calculated decisions. And that's where I kind of look at someone like a Halliburton or Okoro, or even to an extent, someone like Killeen Hayes, overseas prospect, 18 years old playing in Germany this year. To me, he's going to be a solid player. It's just a matter of figuring out what his ceiling is. is. And it's that type of year where there's some talent out there, but a lot of guys with question marks. And there's going to be good players and it's going to be fun to talk about the draft as it always is. I look forward to publishing my NBA draft guide before the draft again

this year on the ringer. But there's no top end clear number one guy, which is a little unusual compared to past years, what we've been used to. And I know you've mentioned the Halliburton kid a couple different times on these pods. I mean, I went to go look up the other day. I mean, just to see like, hey, what has he done against the best teams? And they had just played a game against Kansas. And, I mean, it was a debacle for him. But, I mean, his numbers are very good. His numbers are very good.

But, I mean, they played Kansas. I mean, they played Baylor recently, and he had like six points. Yep. And, you know, and then they played. And that's concerning. And that Kansas game, he was, you know, it's five points. I mean, five points playing against Kansas. So, I mean, like the two best teams he's played recently.

have been very poor performances. I'm not saying that that's... And he shot a combined three for 14 from three in those two games. He's rough. He's a guy who has three-point shot. The numbers are good. 43% from last year from three, 40% this year from three.

He's gotten remarkably better as a ball handler. His passing has been unleashed. I think with Halliburton, you're looking at a guy who is such a smart player and a guy who has improved from year one to year two in college that you're projecting forward as him being a real solid high-end role player. I think like I look at him like the way I looked at Malcolm Brogden. Just a guy you know he's going to be solid.

Well, maybe you and this draft that may be just what you try to go for is those guys that I typically write about like, you know, the guys that won't fail. But I mean, like seriously like, O.B. Topin or Topin, you know, I mean, he's on a very good Dayton team. So like maybe we can watch him. but but you know what you just said and what i mentioned as well it's like yes you do want to have a guy who's solid but at the same time it's like rookie salaries are they're cheaper you know if you can get a role player if you can get a guy at four or five million dollars but do you

want to be investing nine million dollars in haliburton as a rookie with the number one pick no you're going to take a swing i think that's why like like if you're investing that much money into a player, I think maybe that's one of the reasons why you're going to take a swing higher in the draft because of the fact is, like, if you're paying a guy who has higher upside than somebody else, that's great.

But Halliburton at $9 million as a rookie might feel like a bit much if you don't feel like the upside is there. Well, I'll tell you this, you do wonder, and I'd have to go back and look, but if there are some of those guys, I never fault anyone for going and pursuing their dream and then

getting paid to do it, right? But you do wonder if there are some guys that would have really benefited by deciding to go back this year because of how much they would have stood out, right? I mean, because guys that got drafted a little bit lower in the first

round or maybe even in the second round, that if they would have come back, this would be the year to be a draft prospect. That's such a risk, though. I get a risk. You get it heard and you don't know what happened. Sometimes a risk pays off, though, big time. It can. Sure. I mean, imagine,

imagine somebody like, I don't know, Darius Garland. Granted he went fifth, which is great. But if he did go back last year to Vanderbilt and he killed it, maybe we'd be talking about him as the number one pick. If Cam Reddish went back and he was the guy there, I mean, maybe we're having a different conversation about him as a, as a prospect entering the draft. Or maybe he would have stunk.

And maybe instead of going 10th, he could end up going 25th. And that's ultimately the big risk that some of these guys do take when they go back. I agree. No, I totally believe that to be true also, right? There is a risk in that. I'm just saying, look at this draft. Just being good and playing on a good team would at least put you in front of everybody all the time and you'd stand out like a sore thumb. Because we can't even watch any of these other guys. At least if you went for 30 in the tournament, we could fall in love with you. my other option is falling in love with 12 games on YouTube you know of some dude

and that's that's a tough eval that's for sure this is a weird draft man like that's the bottom line it's a weird draft and I look forward to actually putting together my rankings I'm not there yet I want to wait but I feel like this year if you look at like what I do or what Gavoni does at ESPN or you look at like all so many of the draft Nix

on Twitter do. I feel like people are going to have drastically different rankings, which is going to reflect what it's like every single year in the league. Every single year, there's no consensus from executive to executive from GM to GM. And I think that's going to be reflected this year with public rankings, I hope. I hope there's not a consensus because they're sure as hell is not a consensus in the league. I agree with you. I think it'll make for a fun draft too where people don't have as super strong opinions, you know. Kevin, have a unbelievable weekend, and I will talk to you on Tuesday. I'm looking forward to it.

Have a great weekend, everybody. Thanks to everybody for listening again. Thanks to Bobby Wagner for producing the show. If you're difficult, you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, five stars, five stars. It really helps, and we will talk to you next week.