The Ringer NBA Show - Red-Hot Utah Jazz, Donovan Mitchell for ROY, and Early Draft Debate | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 210)

Episode Date: February 13, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor discuss the Utah Jazz on a 10-game win streak (1:24), consider Donovan Mitchell’s candidacy for Rookie of the Year (14:46), and debate their differing methods of evaluating the upcoming NBA draft (22:43). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's Ringer NBA show, we'll be discussing the Red High Utah Jazz and the upcoming NBA draft. But first, a word from our sponsor, Belvedere. Produced in one of the world's longest running distilleries, Belvedere vodka is the world's finest all-natural vodka. Crafted by a collective of master distillers, Belvedere is made from non-GMO Polish rye, pure water, and no additives. Recognized for quality, Belvedere was named the ISC World Vodka Producer of the Year in 2015, 16, and 17. Enjoy a delicious cocktail with Belvedere vodka today, and remember to always drink responsible. Also want to give you a heads up that I've got two new shows in the rotation on the Ringer NBA show. Monday's Heat Check with John Gonzalez and Friday's draft class with Kevin O'Connor, Jonathan Charks, and Danny Chow.

Also, Jonathan Charks on the case for Kevin Durant as the defensive player of the year. Go read that now on the ringer.com. Now, time for today's NBA show. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com. Is Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Connor. Verdon! What's going on? All right. So we've got a lot of stuff to get to today.

Obviously, the All-Star break is coming up this weekend. But the events of last night were intensely interesting. I settled in and I watched the Utah Jazz and the San Antonio Spurs because the Jazz were going for a record 10th straight win, a win that they did get, as Donovan Mitchell did not have a great shooting night, made, I think four of his last five shots, had a huge steal, came down the court and ran a little pick and pop off of a screen, and Genobly almost hit like the craziest game winner ever. That would have been an all-timer. That had me thinking it might go in. I know. A wild angle.

I mean, it was not long ago that the Utah Jazz were sitting at 19. and 28. Now they are 29 and 28 after 10 straight wins. And I've got to find this stack. I mistakenly did not write it down before we came on. They were down 13 in the fourth, right? And teams that had been down by 13 in the fourth quarter to San Antonio, it's like 700 and something and four. Wow. Unreal. In the Popovich era. It was some kind of crazy stuff. Hey, the jazz are for real, Kevin. I'm a believer. For sure.

Pretty much ever since Gobert came back, he's changed their defense. And you look at the teams they've been, they haven't beaten a bunch of schmucks. They've beaten pistons, raptors, warriors, sun, spurs, pelicans, grizzlies, hornets, blazers, spurs again. They're killing it, man. They have the foundation of defense. Ever since Gobert came back, he's changed everything. Well, and the other thing is they can score now. That was their big problem.

they've always been able to defend, but they couldn't score for the first part of the season. And now they have really figured it out and playing together. You, Rubio didn't even play last night and Rubio had been on a super tear for like the last two weeks during this streak.

It's always funny when Ricky Rubio has those moments where you're like, geez, like if only if he had a consistent jump shot because he's amazing. I think it was it last week, was it? Last week he had like the 34 point game or was that the week before? I think that was also against the Spurge, wasn't it? Yes.

Yes. But still, without Rubio, they have other guys who can step up, and I think that's a testament to, A, the team's depth, but also Quinn Snyder's coaching ability. I mean, you've really enabled Donovan Mitchell to become the guy that he is. You've, you know, had someone like Joe Ingalls

who's had an outstanding week. Guys elevate into greater roles when they need to. And I think that's what makes this team so good. And why, you know, despite the injuries, going back the last season, too, they had a lot of injuries at the beginning of the year, but they kind of battled through that. And the same thing has happened this season.

And now that they're pretty much healthy, besides Rubio. I think they're certainly going to make a very, very, very strong playoff push and probably hold on because of the sheer talent on that roster.

I also think that watching them these last couple of nights, I think Crowder's a great fit for them. I tweeted that the other night. He fits in flawlessly, I think, with that team. And I think can be a really nice piece for them come playoff time.

It all, you know, you watched him a ton in Boston. It all went to hell in Cleveland for him. I mean, it was just a bad fit. It never worked. But I've always been a fit. of his game. And I think that as a, you know, you plug him into a role with that team and you're talking about in most cases, probably going to be like maybe a fourth option offensively on the

court. If he's coming off the bench, he can be maybe a bigger option than that sometimes. But I think he's a great fit for them. And I think he kind of fits like their culture and kind of what they do. And I don't know, it just looked natural. I think with Jay Crowder, I mean, the conversation last season, you know, before that deal with Boston and Cleveland happened was, well, look, his defense has regressed after some of the knee injuries and leg injuries. That's still true. He's not quite the same guy. Maybe his reputation says that he is, but he's a very good defender against forwards, not as much against guards, which is okay. That's fine. But with him, it's also about the shot. And over his career, besides really a hut streak from October to February at the beginning of

last season, he's been pretty much like a 33% shooter over the course of his entire career. And that's what he was up until early January this year. And ever since then, he's shooting over 40% from three with Utah and with Cleveland. So maybe he's going to end the season with another one of those hot streaks as a historically streaky shooter. If that's the case, Utah is getting him at the perfect time. And if he's not, look, I mean, if he shoots 35% from three and he plays good defense for you, you're fine with that. But if that's a lot, you know, shot is on like it has been the last two games and the last month for that matter. He's going to be a really, really important player coming off their bench.

He can be a really important player coming off their bench. And the other thing is I was listening to Brian Winhorse talk about just he was never comfortable in Cleveland, obviously plays the same position as LeBron. And LeBron like just kind of stop passing it to him. You know, once he was struggling, hitting his shot and like there were quotes where he would say like, I may not even touch the ball in an entire quarter. this kind of stuff. It just went wrong for it, right?

There are rhythm guys. Like, that's almost not even a knock against LeBron. It's just some guys need touches in order to produce. If anything, I mean, that could be used as a knock against him. Like, oh, you can't stay hot. But not everybody can acclimate when a guy has the ball all the time. That's right. And, well, and LeBron has made people an immense amount of money over the years.

But he is, as they say, notoriously hard on guys that don't make the open threes, right? And if you don't, you don't get chances every single night. He'll just stop. He'll stop throwing it to you over. He'll just go stand in the corner. That's what you'll do. I mean, in a way, it was just distorted expectations last summer with Crowder, right? I mean, we're talking about a guy that was ranked ahead of Demar de Rosen on one of the top 100 list.

A lot of probably Cavs fans, a lot of NBA fans, for that matter. We're expecting the Cavs to get this high-end, 3-and-D lockdown versatile defender. When really, Crowder is just a great defender against Ford's, not guards, and shot is not for real. I mean, he shot 39. something percent last season from three, 39.8 percent from three, nearly 40, but he's not that actual level of shooter. But if he can do it over the closing months of the season for Utah, then that's all that really matters.

He's probably somewhere in the middle, right? He's not as good as he was with the Celtics or appeared to be with the Celtics. He's not nearly as bad as he appeared to be with the Cavs. For sure, I think that's very fair to say. Which is a really good player, a good player and a nice piece to have, especially if he fits with you. The other one is you mentioned a passing Joe Ingalls. He's been out of his mind, Kevin.

I mean, he's been great. They were running this side pick and roll with him last night. I mean, listen, when you're on a 10-game win streak, everybody's looking pretty good. And going against Powell Gasol in defense, too. Well, yeah, and Favors, in that fourth quarter, Favors gave Powell the business. I mean, the whole quarter. He was a menace offensively and defensively. I thought Favors was as good as I've seen him look in a long, long time.

But his Ingalls, they'll run this side pick and roll, and he's burying threes. The percentages are off the charts. And I put this up on Twitter earlier asking people, people, he is one of those guys that if you just saw him walking through the mall or something, you would never in a million years suspect that he is an extremely good NBA player, right? And so I ask people. How come? Well, inevitably, people are going to be like, oh, you're just a bunch of white guys.

But some of the answers I got, some of the answers I got were interesting, right? Guys that are much better than they look or are good, but you would never suspect. I got PJ Tucker. I got Danny Green was an interesting one. I don't know if I would, I mean, obviously, Danny Green's got big size, but I think people, you know, Danny Green is the kind of guy that if he's walking through the airport, people would ask him, are you a basketball player? A lot of spurs, right, Genobli, Davis Bertans, these kind of guys.

T.J. McConnell was overwhelming. T.J. is one that definitely comes up mind. Anybody who's under six foot. Oh, sure. So, like Isaiah. Even Isaiah Thomas, it should be on the word. Anybody who's under six foot. And JJ Berea.

One of the ones that I got that I got a lot more frequently than I would have suspected was Yokic. Yokish. Now, I know he's a giant. He's a giant. People are like sending me pictures with his shirt off and he looks like nothing. It's really funny, right? It's honestly funny to see some of the pictures. Alfred Payton obviously gets on there.

But that's, I mean, if Oliver Payton cut all his hair off, then it wouldn't be strange. but it is the hair that stands out so dramatically that that is atypical of an NBA player per se. And then the sneaky really good one is from our man, Paolo, you know who he said? Who's that? Chris Paul. I think that is a sneaky.

If you saw Chris Paul just walking around, you would never suspect he's one of the best point guards ever. Anybody six foot or under, I think it's a fair question to ask with the NBA. I mean, put it this way. I remember a couple years ago, Pablo Torre wrote an article back when he was with SI about how seven footers have a 17% chance of playing in the NBA.

And obviously that decreases as the guys get shorter. But the taller you are, I mean, the higher percent chance is that you play either in the NBA or professional basketball somewhere. So with someone like Nicola Yokic, I don't see how anybody could look at him and think, oh, he doesn't play basketball. I mean, he probably played basketball at some level, you know, even if he wasn't an NBA player. if there's a Nicole Yokic doppelganger out there in the world.

I'm aware that there are things that are much worse than this, but just on, as we are talking about this particular subject, imagine being seven foot tall and not being in the NBA or good at basketball. I mean, that would be awful. Because, like, everything about being seven foot tall is a hassle. Yep. Everything, right? Clows, walking through a door.

Driving. Yeah, everything. Everything. Going on an airplane. Yes. I mean, if you didn't have, like, obviously, if you're in the NBA, you can make millions of dollars and you can afford to, you know, cater to being seven foot tall. You can get all your clothes made and you could get the car that fits you and everything else. But being seven foot tall without being good at basketball would just be horrendous.

That would be the worst. You can get around. What a waste, right? That being said, I do think that's true of Chris Paul. Chris Paul looks like nothing, Kevin. If you see it, he just looked like a regular guy. He does. Okay, here's my thing.

I don't see why one person looks like a basketball player or another person doesn't, aside from height. Well, you look like an athlete. Joe Engels is six foot eight. Hold on now. You look like an athlete. What I'm saying is that you're not cut out of granite. You're not like if Joe Ingalls isn't a basketball player, it's six foot of heat, you might think, oh, he's an offensive left tackle. No, he doesn't look in good shape.

He doesn't look like somebody that would be, right? I mean, typically these guys do have a body type about them. Not all. So I just don't know if there's like a type. That's just me. You can never judge a book by its comrade? You think Chris Paul looks like he would be one of the best basketball players ever? I don't know what the best basketball player ever looks like.

Michael Jordan! What are you talking about? You don't know what he looks like. There's not like there's not pictures of him. But Michael Jordan looks like the greatest basketball player ever because he's Michael Jordan. He's not the best basketball. basketball player ever because of the way he looks. No, I'm aware.

Like there's a lot of guys with similar body types who have come into the league. I'm aware. You guys find a way to disagree about anything. It's truly unbelievable. He's acting like there's not an athletic body type. I never heard of some shit like this in my life. I feel like we're just approaching the topic a little bit differently where when you first asked the question on Twitter, I took it as like just.

face. Like he doesn't have like a basketball face like Frank Kerminski. Oh, good grief. I was sure you were talking about athleticism. We're talking about athleticism. You're watching a guy play basketball. That's what we do. We just look at their heads and decide whether or not they're a good player or not.

That's the thing is like if you're judging athleticism, oh, he doesn't like a basketball player, you need to be watching the guy play basketball in order to judge his athleticism. You get what I'm saying? So you only know Joe Ingalls is a bad athlete because you're watching him. play basketball. This feels like first take. No, this is unbelievable. More than the Ringer NBA show.

I don't even, I don't even understand, Isaac. This fucking guy, like if I, the idea that I'm walking down the street and if I said Joe Ingalls, is that guy a, yeah, he's six foot six. No, he's six foot eight, actually. If you saw Joe Ingalls and would say, you know what, he might be extremely good. He might be a good number being in the NBA.

I won't because he's six foot eight. Good grief. Listen to Mr. Kevin O'Conflict. Listen to. Listen to him, argue with me, Isaac, that you do not make assumptions on people by the way they look. Yeah. Oh, man. But if you see a six-foot-eight guy walking around the street, you're going to think one and two things.

Either, oh, he used to play basketball or he plays basketball now. If I saw Joe Engels, I would think he's an accountant. It's six-foot-eight. There are six-foot-eight accountants, Kevin. Yeah, I know, but there's not... I know. What I'm saying, though, is we're talking... I don't even know where we started here at this point.

All right. Let's get to Donovan Mitchell. Fantastic transition. Does Donovan Mitchell look like a basketball player? He looks exactly like a rookie of the year. Ooh. 189 points over to this 10-game win streak. The last rookie to lead his team in scoring during a stretch like that was Will Chamberlain

in 1959, 60. Also, a guy that if you saw him, looked like he would be great at basketball. So Donovan Mitchell now, Of course, he's going to be at All-Star Weekend. He's going to be in the dunk contest, et cetera, et cetera. I will give us a little tap on the back because you and I did a show in Las Vegas. Both loved him. You know, went around and obviously I saw him in a game where he had damn near 40 points and 10 steals in a summer league game.

And then I started asking around about him and you heard all these stories. Dad's a minor league baseball coach, great kid, all this kind of stuff, right? One of the NBA scouts told me that he went to a practice at Louisville, and Mitchell came up to him and said, hi, introduced himself and said, what can I do to work on my game for the next level? And so you got all these rave reviews, and he looked amazing at Summer League, and it has actually translated. I do think we had this discussion a couple of weeks ago, and you thought it was a foregone conclusion that Simmons was going to win rookie of the year. And at that time, go back and listen to the tape. I said if they get to the playoffs, and he's the leading scorer on a playoff team, he'll win it. And this is going to actually be, I think, a great race these last two months of the season, don't you?

Yeah, totally. I mean, I still think Ben Simmons is going to win it, you know, just based off the vote historically and what voters tend to do. But certainly, I mean, I kind of posed this question in the NBA slack on the ringer last night where let's say Mitchell closes the season and he ends up averaging like, 21, 4, and 4, and the Jazz are the 5 or the 6th seed. And then for Ben Simmons, he ends up like 15, 7 and 7, and the 6ers are the 7 or the 8 seed. I think the narrative would be there for voters to say, oh, Mitchell's team was better, and he scored more,

and he carried the team more late in games, for him to certainly steal a lot of votes. I think it could end up being close if that's the case if the Jazz have a lot of team success, largely due to Mitchell because of his impact, obviously, in both ends of the court. But I don't know if he's going to win it. I still think it's too early to say, but I'm intrigued, Chris. I'm certainly right there with you.

I'm intrigued. I think it can end up close. He has just been out of his mind. So fun to watch. Oh, for sure. So much life on the court, too, man. You see that post-game interview with him? I did.

I don't know if you saw yesterday. I'm sure you did the video that was put out of the NBA show where Gonso and Chris Ryan were debating about Markell Fultz. And Ryan, who is a trust the process, Philadelphia 76ers fan, Gonzo started listing off all of the last draft and was asking, would you trade Markell Fultz for? Like now, right? And he said no to virtually everyone all the way down to Donovan Mitchell.

Oh, come on. That's what he said. Ryan, you take it up with Chris Ryan. I'm not at the office. I'm serious. Come on. I'm serious. He said no to Tatum.

He said no to everybody. He said he holding on to Fultz. You don't agree. Yeah, over Mitchell? Good, go argue with him. All right, so with Markle Fultz, obviously he still has immense talent. He was ranked number one by everybody for good reason, right? But we have a new variable that's entered the equation, and you've got to take that in.

And it's scary for Markell Fultz. It's very, very scary, and that's what makes us so worrisome moving forward. But whereas with Mitchell, he has answered almost all the questions that could have been asked of him pre-dress. and has proven that he not only can become at the worst case scenario like a Gary Harris type, he's already better than him. He's already better. And I think with Mitchell, you've got to take that in, you know, despite the two-year age difference. So you got to take Mitchell, man. You've got to take Mitchell. Well, and it can be a, as we know, it can be an incredible mistake to judge guys on the first 50 games of their career. Yes. Even if we went through like the All-Star game and we said, what if we would have judged these guys on the

first 50 games of their career. I mean, it would have been a radically different scenario. You got to be careful, and that goes the other way, too. Mitchell may never get better than what he is right now. This could be the best of Donovan. Mitchell, chances are it's not, but it could be. Yeah, no, and just think. Nobody in the free world would have taken, if you redid that draft, you wouldn't have

taken James Hardin. You wouldn't have taken Steph Curry. I'm talking about the draft with Curry and Hardin and all those guys. You wouldn't have taken Hardin after 50 games. You wouldn't have taken Curry after 50 games. You sure as hell wouldn't have taken Drame. You wouldn't have taken Dremont after two years. Yeah, exactly.

You know what I mean? So the book is never written on these guys, but the initial reaction to the first 50 games of Mitchell is they have something very special on their hands in Utah. Just a random note, and I don't know if we'll cut this, but I just was Googling for a 2009 NBA redraft. And the earliest one that I can find through Google is from September 2011. And in that redraft, after two seasons, Tyreek Evans was number two ahead of James Hard. ahead of Stefan Curry, ahead of a whole bunch of guys,

DeMargaroz and Drew Holliday. Wow. You know, Wesley Matthews even. I mean, Taj Gibson was still number 14 in this redraft. Was number one Blake Griffin? Yes, Blake was still number one. Kind of says all you need to know. Like, even after two years, you still really can't judge it.

Hashim to beat was number 28 after two years. Oh, my God. Sorry, bad memories, but I was just scrolling down the list. How dare you? Yeah, that happened quickly. How dare you, Bray? I was in a good mood today. Sorry.

You can't blame me for that one. All right. So let me also mention this. One other note in passing before I get to the draft stuff, because I listen to you and Charks talking about the draft. All right. Before I get to that, I do want to tell you,

and we don't have to get in a long discussion about this, but Kevin, your bright future sons lost by 46 points last night. It's their fourth 40-point loss of the season. The rest of the NBA has four combined. I just wanted to mention that. I mean, I know they suck right now. I mean, breaking news.

Future is bright. It could be. Stop. Come on. I'm not even going to get into it. But look at the other roster. We literally just got done talking about how you can't judge young players after two years. And so, like, now we're going to, like, dragon vendor can't become really good.

Or Josh Jackson hasn't been really, really great these last couple weeks? I did say, you know what is really, come on. Come on, Chris. What do we just talk about? We agreed, and now we suddenly lead out for some reason. That was by 46. By the way, when you see last night, now I think, listen, you could have coached up last night and you'd have beaten the Sons if you're the Warriors.

But I did think it was hilarious to watch Steve Kerr just say, you know what, coach yourselves and that the Warriors were all coaching themselves last night. I mean, you remember like Luke Walton, like what, during that record setting's easy, like 30 and 2 or something. Right? It is kind of funny. Like, is that what happens if the coach doesn't show up for the Warriors? Like, the coaching staff just said, hey, you know, we're not going to be there tonight.

The entire coaching staff just happens and get caught in traffic. Yes. And Draymond has to coach. They'll be okay. It seems like they're okay. I was thinking last night, I mean, if more teams started doing that just over the course of the season, I think that would be kind of cool. It takes incredible humility.

Yeah. Right? It really does. Because all these coaches want to be responsible for everything. What a way to empower your players, too. Yes. Yes, and they won by 46. That was their response. I think anytime you can cultivate a culture of empowerment, and that's what probably Steve Kerr was going for,

that's one way to do it is by letting them kind of take control and call the plays. That was fun to see. I hope that happens again later this season with another team. I listen to your draft podcast. I'm a big fan of it. Thank you. I'm not a big fan of this draft. Okay. I saw your videos. Yeah, I did. I watched them. You liked those videos?

Yeah, I did. I liked them. Okay. You know, it would behooved me, considering my favorite team, now has a lottery pick for the first time in, you know, a decade, for this to be extremely talented and extremely deep. I just don't see it. I don't. I look up and down college basketball and I see many of the good teams or who are very good this year, and they're not filled with elite level prospects. Typically, drafts can be dependent upon the quality of the one and done players. There's a ton of big guys in this one for sure, right?

When you look at the top prospects, even when you go back and you look at the recruiting rankings, a lot of the guys were like 6, 10, or above. But anyway, when Jonathan Charks brought up freaking Larry Burr. Regarding Luke and Donchich, I almost passed out. Larry Burr's like one of the five or ten players in NBA history. Like, what are we doing? Like, what? And so, let me start with Donchich.

because I did not. Hey, you know I live out of town because Charks, as we've mentioned, is an absolute giant. He could probably squish me. Is Charks a basketball player because he's tall? He should have been. He's a colossal waste of height. Oh, boy. Wow.

I love Charks. I love Charks. Leave that in. But Luca Dodgers being Larry Bird is the dumbest damn thing I ever heard of my life. I think what Charks was saying is like there's a non-zero percent chance. There could be a point. zero zero zero one percent chance. Dude, there is a less than zero percent chance that he is Larry freaking bird.

Come on. Larry Bird. This is the tough part with comparisons. Like, tell me Hito Turgalloo. I'm not. Tell me a better Hito Turgol. And that's like the greatest likelihood. You know?

I think the Larry Bird comparison is way too out there as well. I mean, like you said, we're talking about one of the greatest NBA players of all time. All right. Just hear me out on this, okay? hear me out on this and i have gotten a tremendous amount of blowback on my draft opinions but let me just say on the luca donchich thing i have not made up my mind right i'm saying that right off the bat here is my concern my concern is the level of competition like once upon a time like dirt novitsky or guys like that were in like say they would play in like something like the nike

hoop summit and you would see them against the best of the best the elite level talent on the other side. You would even, even Rubio, we got to see him playing in the Olympics against Team USA. And so the level of competition, if you go pull up the videos, you watch them and he clearly looks better than everybody else. Okay. Dude, he's playing in the second best basketball league in the world. I'm aware of that. But that's better than Hoop Summit with some high school kids than an all-star game. Not athletically, it's not. You are out of your mind. If you think there's the quality of athlete in the Euro League.

But the quality of basketball. Okay, well, I've seen the quality of basketball. Here's the thing. The perimeter guys that have come over, usually the international players have fallen into two categories that have had great success. They are either total freaks of nature, like your dirks, your Janus's, your poor Zingases, Simmons, I think, would apply, obviously from Australia as a freak of nature, 6-10 and can play point guard.

Or they're big guys. Gobert, Gasol, Ambide, you know, Ibaka, Yokic, Nurkich, Stephen Adams. They're big, right? The perimeter guys, even the ones that have been the elite of the elite overseas, you can say Genobley 20 years ago, but I guess Gorin Dragich probably would be the best one. I mean, it's Dragich, Rubio, Batum, Evan Fornier, you know, these kind of guys. And then we've seen the other guys, Sergio Rodriguez. amazing overseas. Rudy Fernandez, Teodosich.

Keralinko was really good as a wing, for sure. And then we've seen the Hizonias, who has been better recently, I must admit. Jan Vesley, Michael Petrus, I remember when he came over. It's few and far between of the perimeter guys that have come over and lit up the world. I will tell you that I, years ago, Juan Carlos Navarro was the best player. In fact, he's the leading scorer in the history of the EuroLeague. and he was the MVP of the Euro League, and he won three finals MVP's,

and he was in his prime. And he came over and played for the Grizzlies for one season because his best friend was Powell Gasol one year. And he was good, but he was not, like, it wasn't like he walked in the NBA, and he was immediately awesome. But we're talking about guys that aren't Luca Donchridge. Luca is one of the most accomplished 18-year-olds

in basketball history. I get it. dominating the Spanish League and the Euro League at 18. I get it. Like, nobody's ever done it like he is. I will stand by what I said, that if he does it, then he is, he's the one. He's the one that can do it. He is not a special athlete.

No, he's not. He would have to do it by immense amounts of amazing skill. Yes. Right. And I think a lot of these guys, a lot of these guys, they can get swallowed up by the athleticism of the NBA, which is a radically. different caliber of athlete. It just is, Kevin.

It just is. I put it this way. Like, saying he's going to be Larry Bird is setting expectations way too high. The point is that he's really freaking good. Oh, there's no doubt he is incredibly skilled. He's really freaking good.

What if I was able to rewind that video and instead of the 35-year-old guy that's guarding him out on the perimeter, I plug in Kauai Leonard. Yeah, of course. Can he even move an inch against him? I don't know. I don't know.

18 years old. And what matters is how he is when he's 24, 25. Right. I think the question with Donchston, Jonathan and I touched on this last Friday on draft class, is the question is like the jumper. And that's where, like, I think the Larry Bird comparison is crazy because Larry Bird could shoot out of the womb. And Donchich, you know, thus far has been like a 33 percent three-point shooter. And he's a great free throw shooter, his great touch.

And there's a chance he becomes a great shooter. But thus far he hasn't become a great shooter. And that's really, I think, what will determine his upside, even more so than his athleticism, more than anything else. It's like, what level does that jump shot actually reach? Because I have no questions about his passing ability, what his IQ. I'm not worried about his athleticism when it comes of finishing because his touch and his feel and his ambidexarity. He's so good, so skilled that I'm not worried about it. It's just the shot.

I mean, what level does that reach? A very wise scout once told me years ago when thinking about, you know, I was talking to him about how to evaluate international players and how to evaluate college players. And this has always stuck with me, and he said, internationally, size translates. Big is big, no matter. You can be in any league in the world. Big is big, right?

And that stands to reason when I've told you about either the freaks of nature or the big guys. Yeah. And he said, in college, speed translates. If you're fast, you're fast, right? I don't know if I agree with that. That's what you said. If you're fast, you're fast.

It's seen a lot of fast guys flame out. Sure. No, I'm saying, what? translates when you're watching these games. Athletically. Yes, athletically. When you are athletically superior, that that will translate. If you can jump out of the gym and you can fly up and down the court, these are things

that translate to the NBA game. And the same thing goes internationally. And the hardest challenge of scouting international players is that when everything is so much faster and more athletic in the NBA game, how does what they do translate? And are they still able to dominate or? be great when that's the level of competition. And then the absence of seeing him versus that level of competition, which I believe is infinitely greater, especially athletically,

I have a very hard time knowing if it's a sure thing or believing it's a sure thing. But he might be the greatest. Who knows? Nothing's certain. Yes. Nothing is certain. That's for sure. And the rest of it, you know, who do you love, like really love in this draft?

Put it this way. Let me just preface what I'm about to say with this. All the top guys have some big questions. DeAndre Aiton has questions. Marvin Bagley does. Mo Bamba. Michael Porter had the big injury. And even then, his ball handling needs to come a long way.

Trey Young, sighs is a question and athleticism is with him too. All these top guys have questions. But they also have immense talent. A guy like DeAndre Aten, two-way potential. He's someone that I love a lot. I think for me, Luca is number one. DeAndre Aiton's number two. Then after that, it's so much dependent on, you know,

role and situation that's going to be determining how these guys are ranked. But I do like a lot of these guys. I haven't fallen head over heels on love with any other besides really Daunchidge. But I don't think you really need to fall in love at this point. It's like if you're on The Bachelor, we're not even at hometowns yet. You do not think that there is a certain number one in your mind. Obviously, you like Donkut. Yeah, Luca Donchrich is like in his own tier for me at number one.

and that can change. I mean, I'm not married to anything right now. If anything, to be honest with you, like, I don't love ranking players at this point. I think sometimes you can get locked into an evaluation if you overthink it too early. What ultimately matters is your opinion in June or June 21st when that draft actually happens. Right now, Don Chitz is on his own level, but that could certainly change. I think D'Andre Aiton could get on that same level. I think Moabamba could as well, for that matter.

These guys are going to evolve. It's going to go beyond the end of the college season. What matters is almost a lot is how they improve from the end of their college seasons to pre-draft workouts and then in the draft in late June. Development never stops. If that is the top three

or like those three that you mentioned, I just, I don't love any of them. I certainly don't love Aiton. Don't love Aiton, Bamba, whatever, you can have them. I really like Bagley. I do not think Bagley's going to be bad. No way. I don't either. I just, I have this thing of

you know, all right, who do I knows not going to suck, right? Because, I mean, that's the thing. If you ask any talent evaluator right now, frankly, any fan right now, and I said, here's the top 10 guys in all of these mock drafts. Now, who's going to suck? They're not going to be able to point it out. They're not going to say anybody. They're all good. Hope springs eternal, right? All of them are going to be the best version of themselves. But we know inevitably we're going to look up in three or four years, and there's going to be a group of him that's just not any good, including somebody taking in the top five is not going to be any good, right?

Sure. Yeah, no doubt. So that's why I'm saying, I'm almost like a safety one where I look at it and go, I do not foresee a situation where Bagley's not good. I do not foresee. That was almost the conversation we had with Jaron Jackson. That's what Charks liked about Jackson a lot, where he's a very safe player, where you know he's going to be able to contribute in a specific type of role.

Jaron Jackson is not going to be bad. I'm with you. 100%. Yeah, he's not. He got in foul trouble this weekend. But are you going to take Jaron Jackson over somebody who, while you have questions and while you're worried about these guys, would you take him over DeAndre Aiton, who has, I know you've tweeted about that poor game he had the other week, but he's also had some absolutely incredible moments as well. No, I know. People always tell me, you know, you just watched the wrong game.

So I watched him again this past weekend. I just wasn't into it. He stink again? Yeah, I mean, it was like 15 and. six or something. I mean, I wasn't into it. I don't know. I just don't love him. And again, like we said, the overrated stuff gets, it's very hard on these kids, right? Like, I mean, stop it already with the Joel Embeded, Hakeem Elijah Juan, Larry Bird, like, stop. Come on. I mean, this shit has gotten so insane. But on the other hand, I mean, come on, we're talking about these guys, the greatest players

of all time. Literally the greatest players of all time are some of the comps. And I'm like, what are you watching? But somebody alert me when DeAndre Aiton's playing against like McNeese State or something because that's obviously when I need to see him. Not when he's playing against

UCLA or USC or somebody really good or somebody that's got real athletes. My comp for Aiton is like a if we're talking highest, highest possible upside, like a Patrick Ewing type of guy. Oh, for a fuss.

But the thing is he's so, the thing is you need to qualify that with he's so far away from that. He's so far away that it seems outrageous. Dude, the point is of those... He's like a decade worth of All-Star team. Yeah, we're talking about different types of outcomes.

The probability is that a guy's not going to become that. There's like a 5% chance that he is that. There's a 60% chance of something in the middle, right? And then there's the rest that he just completely bust and he's out of the league or whatever. What I'm saying is there's different outcomes for some of these guys. but you can't say with a straight face that Ethan Hap can become Patrick Ewing or whatever the greatest outcome is for him. The Larry Bird comparison is ridiculous,

but the point is that there's a non-zero percent chance that the outcome for this player is franchise-level player. You know what I'm saying? And no, and that's just where we part ways. I say zero percent. I mean, I look at these kids, and I say no way. You can't say that for everybody who comes through the draft. You could have said that for James Harden in 2009.

You could have said that for Stefan Carrier. There's a 0% chance. For some of these guys, there's not a 0% chance. It might be only 1%, might be 5%. No, I'm talking about this specific draft. That's my opinion, with these kids. I mean, if you would have told me Anthony Davis could be one of the greatest players to ever walk planet Earth. I mean, you would have to be a dumb ass to watch Kentucky and not feel that way.

I agree. I mean, you know, like everybody saw it. I just don't see that with these kids. I'm with you. I'm totally with you. there's not an Anthony Davis prospect in this draft. There's not. There's not a guy where it's like, no, duh, he's the number one pick.

No, when people were saying like, hey, that guy could be Tim Duncan, that's a stretch. But if you watch him, you're like, dude, I don't know, he might could. I mean, this kid is like, he is unbelievable. He was like. But would you have said that about Tim Duncan, the freshman? Oh, yeah, I don't know. I don't. And that's the tough part.

Like, that's the difficulty here, right? Because these kids are coming out as 19 years old. Right. Right. And like if you allow high school players to come out, like I think could happen in the coming years, it's going to be even harder when you're judging high school talent. Like it's going to be incredibly difficult to project forward. Whereas with seniors or even juniors for that matter, you kind of have a good idea of who they are and what they can be. And for Tim Duncan, it was no duh, you know, and it's very rare you get an Anthony Davis type.

Regarding those biggest prospects, I told you, I've got the questions on Donchich, but I haven't made up my mind. Aiton, I'm not into Bamba, whatever. Bagley, I really like. Jared Jackson, I really, really like. And Porter Jr., the only thing, I mean, there's a lot to love. The only thing that scares me is the back surgery, because it's not a back injury. It's surgery. I think if you saw him play, you'd have more to worry about them.

There's the back. Oh, really? Okay. I mean, his first step is okay. You know, his ball handling needs to improve a hell of a lot. Okay. There's, you know, there's more questions with him than just the back in my game. And last one, let me get your opinion on this.

because I said this regarding the draft. Listen, I'm not the end-all-be-all on this stuff. I'm well aware. Everybody's got different opinions on prospects. Nobody's the end-all be-all. Nobody. Right? 12 teams passed on Donovan Mitchell, right? Yeah.

These are supposedly the best people are doing this in the world, or it should be, if they're running the teams. It's not an exact science. It's not easy. So one of the opinions I gave was on the Trey Young thing. And I said, I see very little in-between on him, Kev. he's either going to be like a big star or it's not going to work out at all.

Like I really watch him and think either all this shit's going to work or it's not on the next level. And I've just got to decide if I think it's all going to work because I don't think that we're going to look up and Trey Young is okay.

I really don't. Why not? The extremes on him are really serious. Like I could look up and let's just say whoever. And I don't want to even say okay. But like say Marvin Bagley, right? Marvin Bagley doesn't reach, you know, star potential.

Like if you're Derek favors, you're still really, really good, right? You're really good. And that could be the floor for you. I think the floor for Young would be way, way lower, way lower. But the ceiling is like, obviously, a star, a star, right? You're either going to be able to pull that stuff off or you're not on the next level. I really feel that way. And if he does, he's a big star.

And if he doesn't, he's not going to be good. And I have a hard time thinking he's not going to be good. But I just don't think there's much middle ground. I don't think he's just going to be an okay NBA player. So, like, what is like the worst case for him? Because, like, I don't see how he could ever possibly be any worse than a guy he's already better than, like, Tyos Jones. He's already better than Tyos Jones. Okay.

So, like, the worst would be, oh, I mean, obviously the worst. it's like a flame out, right? Like your jimmers of the world. But maybe, like, Trey Burke was in the G League this year, right? Yeah, I think he just got an NBA contract, right?

He did. From the Knicks, right? So, I mean, you think he could end up just being okay, though? Yeah. Interesting. I don't see why not. Well,

because of what the stuff he does, right, when you watch him play. Yeah, but he could be like a spark plug, you know, that comes off your bench. Even if he's not a starter, you know, if he's not an elite guy that does it every night,

he could be somebody who does it once every 15. games. 15 games. Well, shit, you don't want to take that guy in the top five or 10. Of course. I know, but I'm just talking

specifically about the part where that's just an okay player. A guy who sometimes helps you keep you in a game or helps, you know, extend your lead off the bench. He could become that, you know, a spark plug off the bench.

Those guys are nice to have. Granted, you're not taking that guy in the top five or six. But it's a possible outcome for him. Well, like then you're Fred Van Vliet, right? Who's really good? Comes off your bench. Who's your number.

one guy. Is it Bagley? I love Bagley and I love Sexton and I love Jaron. Those are the three. So that's your top three? Probably right now. Bagley, Sexton, Jaron Jackson. Those are the ones I like the most that I have the least amount of questions about. But if you're the Grizzlies, the Grizzlies end up with the number three pick. I would hope to get one of those three guys, yes. I'd be happy with any of those three. I think you might miss out on Luca Dantritch or DeAndre Aiton. Oh, well, I certainly would, right? And then I've missed out on Larry Bird and Patrick Ewing. or I have missed out on Sergio Rodriguez and it seems to be. You tell me, you're somewhere in between that.

By the way, if we wrap back around, speaking of a level of competition, there needs to be a damn investigation on these highlights, like the House of Highlights and all these people. Who in the F is that kid playing against? I swear, every time I see these four-foot-five white kids, And he's like, it looks like Damn Dominique Wilkins Doing windmills and shit out there

And I'm like, this is embarrassing It's like Thorn Maker looks like the next Kevin Garnett It's just these little white I'm like what league is he in? Playing against these little You've got this freak of naked kid Like he's built like a brick house Looks like damn LeBron out there

Playing against You know like these seventh grade white kids And I'm like good great I just pulled off a video of Thon Maker from 24 skiing. Here's some of the top comments. He's like a mix between Michael Jordan and Kevin Durant.

He's a 7-footy Baca mixed with Durant, L-O-L. Oh, God. Unbelievable. The next Kevin Durant, no, dot, dot. He's the first thorn maker. Stop comparing him.

Oh, my God. Second coming of Hakeem Elijah on. This is what would happen if Garnett and Durant were to prove a child. Sorry, that's the last one. That's a good one. This is the culture we live in now.

So there is a culture. kid that locally, I joke around about, it's like 7-4. His name's Connor Vanover. He's the backup for bowl bowl at Finley Prep, right? Yeah. And he is committed to go to Memphis. And he's not even like a top 200 player in the country. But I went and looked him up, right? They said, oh, this kid committed to play at Memphis. So I went and like, I did the YouTube search. I was like, let me see what he looks like. I swear to God the first video says Connor Van over the next dark. And I was like, Like, what? The next door?

So I call him Arkansas Dirk. He's coming to Memphis. Oh, yeah, I see it. I see it right here. It says the next. 7 foot three sophomore. Connor van over, make save at Washington.

TFC. Dash. Next Dirk Novitsky. Next, Arkansas Dirk. That's what we live in now, right? One of the first comments on that video, another poor zingis.

I mean, I mean, come on, man. It's unbelievable. Yeah. It doesn't matter who it is. That's great. But at least, like, I look at that kid and it looks like an actual high school team he's playing against. I swear, this Zion Williamson plays against elementary school kids. Yeah.

Like every game. I don't know what league that kid is in. Zion's a quality prospect, for sure, you know, with his athleticism. But, you know, when I heard that comment about him not wanting to. shoot after he misses, it's like, who does that apply to when you make other mistakes? Like, does that apply when you miss defensive rotation and you, and you know,

you feel like you get, no, no, seriously, that's what I took it as is like, if you feel that way about your jumper, does it also feel that way when you fail at something else? And that's something, hopefully, you know, he matures and, you know, he develops that, but a lot of guys don't. A lot of guys say the same. Hopefully he's got great people

around him because it is very difficult when you're 16, 17 years old and you're on the cover of Slam magazine or whatever, those next couple years of your life, you know, the level of fame, the level of attention, all of this stuff that comes along with that. Hell, I just watched that interview with Johnny Manzo yesterday, right? And you hear him talking. It's like he's 19. He's a freshman. I would argue at that time, he was the most famous athlete in America for that moment in time. Yep. Like everybody. Johnny football was an absolute phenomenon. That's not even an exaggeration.

No. Go back in time. It's the truth. And it was so much, so fast. Right. And you lose total, you know, thought of self, everything. And so hopefully this kid's got great people around. It's truly the underrated part of LeBron and the empire that he has built, both business-wise, his circle, keeping it close and going through it because LeBron has been famous since he was 15 years old. And that level of fame, I mean, you know, it's hard to be young star. It's another testament to LeBron's greatness.

100%. And those people that are around him, because he's had the same group his whole life. You're right. Not just LeBron, but everybody in his circle, right? Their mindset, their ability to have the foresight to look forward and think, okay, let's think long. And protect him from things, right?

Exactly. Not be the guy that's, you know, become the biggest star in the world early at an age. Anyway, Kevin, I love Tuesdays. Me too, Chris. Can't wait to listen to your drafting. You and sharks can shit all over me on Friday. We got Danny Chow coming on this Friday, too. I'll talk to you next week.

Thanks, brother. Talk to you next Tuesday. See you, Chris. All right, that's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating review on iTunes, and we will talk to you next week.