The Ringer NBA Show - Relationship Counseling: Warriors Edition | Group Chat (Ep. 338)

Episode Date: November 15, 2018

Jimmy Butler’s debut for the Sixers didn’t go quite as smoothly as it could’ve—what does that mean for Ben Simmons (2:00)? Plus, Kevin Clark on the Magic (11:38), and a whole lot of Draymond Green and Kevin Durant melodrama (24:36). Hosts: Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier, Paolo Uggetti, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Ringer MBA show is brought to you by Google G Suite. G Suite by Google Cloud. There's a suite of cloud-based productivity tools that includes Gmail, docs, slides, sheets, and drive. You can make real-time updates to the same document without having to keep track of multiple versions. And since all the tools are cloud-based, your whole team can access the same document and work on the same page at the same time. Make it with G-suite by Google Cloud. To find out more, visit g-sweet.com. Basketball is very good.

Anthony Davis will win the MVP this year The Hawks trading Donchich was a smart move What if the caps are better without LeBron Basketball is very good Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show This is Group Chad I am Chris Ryan and I am joined today by Justin Verrier Hello

Bally O'Detti What's up? Haley O'Shaughnessy has been suspended for calling me a bitch So she will not be on today's show no, Haley's on the injured reserve today. She's on the jump. I think that's what you're on.

She's on the jump. So Haley is injured today. She'll be off. What are we going to talk about today? Well, what aren't we going to talk about today? I don't want to be a Sixers podcast, but we're going to talk about the Sixers. We're going to talk about the new T-Wolves. We're going to get the view from the Orlando side of things and talk to Kevin Clark,

who was live on the scene for Sixers Magic last night. We're also going to talk about all this Warriors' drama. And I kind of want to get these guys and just sort of take their temperature on some of these quiet storms that are brewing in the NBA. Like a couple of teams that are regressing, a couple of teams that maybe playing a little bit above themselves,

kind of figure out what's real, what's not. We do that a lot here. Let's start out, though, with last night's Sixers Magic game. I can't wait. The first, the debut of Jimmy Butler in a Sixers uniform. He was playing for the Sixers.

He wasn't just wearing a uniform. Looks good in the uniform. It's a good, good color. Palo. You're Ricky Henderson here, man. That lead off. Tell me what you thought. He doesn't know who that is.

Okay, all right, all right. I know who that is. Come on now. Yeah, of course. Which team did you play for? The athletics. Oh, look at that. History buff.

You can't get mad at him because he knows who he is. Come on. I'm applauding. Let me be. All right. So, you know, I thought it was interesting. I'm just going to start off of this. Justin had a tweet last night.

Oh, this is a great start. That said, when is somebody going to tell, you know, Ben Simmons that he's the Chris boss? of this. I think... I missed that tweet. Oh, it was a good one. Yeah, a lot of engagement.

A lot of engagement on that one. Okay. But I think watching some of it last night, I kind of get the feeling that the best version of the Sixers team, maybe not at this present moment, but in the near future, is Jimmy Butler as DeBosch.

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to say some wild shit, so does anybody want to go ahead of me real quick? What's that? Do you have any, like, like, actual takes? Because I'm going to go off the rails in a second. I, I have, I mean, like, my takes are very vanilla Sixers fans' takes.

They're like, what the hell is this team? We have a playmaker who can't shoot a number one draft pick who doesn't look like a number one draft pick, a center who likes to play from the top of the key. And now, like, and I just am starting Wilson Chandler. So, like, it's just, this is a work in progress. I want to hear your takes, though, because I feel like I'm going to react more to you. I feel like in that fourth quarter, it felt like Ben Simmons was a Ferrari with snow tires on, where this team has just moved

and last year they were at their best when they were really kind of assaulting the rim and kind of running as if they like took the lead from Ben but especially in that fourth quarter when it got down to crunch time a time when you would think the Sixers would thrive simply because this is what Jimmy Butler does

it seemed like all he would do was bring the ball up the court initiate the offense and then just float into a corner Ben, bend it and he seemed disengaged he seemed lost he sort of pretended to rebate at times, and I know they didn't have a lot of practice time. I think they had one.

Sure. So maybe they figure things out in the future, but really when it comes down to when you have Butler and Embed on the court at the same time in those crucial possessions where they can't really run, it seems like he's going to be relegated to like a screener. And so while he was willing to do that at times, I think he looked more like Draymond Green than LeBron James, which is concerning to me.

I think the thing is like if you're put yourself with Ben Simmons and shoes, You have this guy who's coming in, obviously very headstrong, obviously has just chewed out the two young guys on the other team he was just in. If you're Ben Simmons, even though we know he's an aggressive player, do you not want to at least kind of feel it out in the first game and be like, okay, let me like let this guy kind of have his room to work with here for the most part. And then let me see how I can kind of fit into it. Maybe you say that's wrong and he shouldn't look at it that way. And I kind of agree because I think in the end, like it should be Ben leading the break and leading the Sixers offense, having that. That's the best version. That's why I say, I think Butler is kind of, in the best idealized version of the Sixers,

will become the Bosch because I think he's the one who cuts. He can just, he can catch and shoot. Like, he has all those skills where if you just lower his usage a little bit, his efficiency will just go off. And that's the tension there. It's like, does Ben Simmons want to be that player? We were just talking about him last year as if you were, like, assumed to be the face of the league in like, what, three years from now? and it just seemed like it gave me flashbacks to Jimmy's time with the Wolves. I know it's too soon to say this, but the way they're set up is almost similar where you have

a guy a big who can shoot and can do all these things and you really want to take advantage of that. But that other guy, the Wigginz spot, he is the one who has to figure things out. And in order to do that, he has to be willing to do that. You're using a couple of different templates, which is interesting to hear you talk about it, like in terms of being a Bosch. it's interesting to hear you talk about it in terms of being he needs to be Draymond it's interesting to hear you be like he might be Wiggins

you know sometimes I think that the language that we used to describe teams sometimes limits our understanding of them I'm not I'm not saying that's what you're doing in this case because I don't think that the early results were particularly inspiring and I do think that Ben's receded a little bit this season and especially in this last 10 days where MBEs looked like an MVP candidate

and Ben just doesn't do enough with the ball out of his hands he can cut to the rim and dunk and that's about it. He doesn't space the floor. He can provide a kind of floor spacing because wherever he is requires attention because if he gets the ball from that position, he can get to the rim in one dribble, basically.

But there's not even the threat of the jumper. And I think that you see, like, man, even Fultz looked more comfortable with Butler last night. I mean, I know Kyle Neuback from Philly Voice pointed this out, he did an interesting takeaways piece where he also talked about, you know, Butler made seem to make sense with the bead

and he seemed to make sense even with Fultz, but did not make sense with Simmons. But I will say this, from everything I know about Ben, he's not Carl Towns, nor is he Andrew Wiggins. I don't think that he's going to just take a backseat to his own career here. Right. And I guess somebody has to, and that's going to be the tension to figure out. I guess overall, it seemed to me,

like Ben has never looked more like a center than he did last night, where he has played in the Dunker position a lot. But the issue is that in Bede, even though he has guard-like skills, wing-like skills, he'll never be that because everything is going to move in slow motion and he's going to take up a lot of space. So I just think like the pure just like orchestration and the logistics of it seem muddy.

Also, just to be fair, not only the Sixers bringing in Butler, they're working in, Cork-Maz has not been in the rotation until now. Shamit's getting more minutes. They've got Fultz on this like his numbers, his minutes, and has been specifically like, which lineups he's playing in change every night. Everybody's lineups change every night. But Brown is throwing a lot of different stuff.

So Simmons might be the person who's suffering the most because of all this experimentation. I just think he would, it's so, the Sixers team is so interesting because we, there is a version of them that are title contenders. Like just with what they have right now, I think there's a version of them that are title contenders. But I think there has to be so many different sacrifices.

Like, Jimmy's got a sacrifice. Simmons has got to, like, at least take a jumper. Like, even just the, like, we talk about this all the time, but even just a threat of, like, being like, hey, this is something he can do now, even just, like, catch the ball and shoot it instead of, like, trying to do something else. I think even that would go such a long way to, like,

helping them reach that potential. And, like, and you mentioned Shami, like, how lucky are they that, like, he can shoot and, like... This is why I don't want them trading for some washed-up shooter. Yeah. Cork Mazz and Landry are, like, I'd rather have that and not give up anything else. for Corver or any of these other, like,

you can see what you can give to the sons for, I mean, Reza is a little bit more useful than Corver, but, like, I don't want some shooter that's just going to get, like, hunted out of the game in the playoffs. Yeah, selling low on Markell, if that's the way they're going to do it to, too, does seem a little weird, simply because, like, I don't know what you're going to get from at this point.

Yeah. Also, he looks so much better with the second unit. Like, he's, that's, like, the right place for him, I think. I guess my overall thought coming away from it outside of just, like, labeling Ben Abust at this point, It's just in contrast to the wolves game, which we'll get into, it just seemed like that wolf's team makes so much more sense because they are leaning into two guys as opposed to this big three.

I just think in this day and age, it just seems so much more difficult to make a big three work because of all the financial constraints. And I do wonder outside of the warriors who are the extreme outlier. We'll get to them. Yeah, it just seems like it's a little bit easier to find two all-stars, two pillars,

and then build around them with shooters and other guys, especially when your two guys aren't really shooters. So let me ask you this. Have you always been skeptical about Ben Simmons' overall impact, or are you a little bit more skeptical about it now than you were last season? Because I felt like last season, one of the things that was so great about having Ben with the ball is that he is a devastating transition player.

So, like, if you got out and ran at all, like, you basically, it was automatic too, because if you play the ball, Ben's going to make some insane pass to a guy, filling the lane. And if you play off the ball, he's just going to destroy you and Tomahawk on your face. Yeah, I think that playoff series just like still has me shook to a large degree. It just seems like we kind of just neglected the fact that like the entire league is based around shooting and spacing the floor. And we just thought because he was getting around that, that he would keep doing

it rather than just assuming that like it would come to a head and that would be something he would have to get over. And I just don't know how it works long term in 2018 with two of those guys. Sure. And Bid, at best is what, a 35% three-point shooter? So, I mean, he certainly thinks he's a higher than that. That top of the key at three is like automatic for him now, though. But it's also, that's actually like a pretty smart place for him to be in somebody. He's a good passer.

It reduces the useless wear and tear of him banging down low when he's not going to get the ball anyway sometimes. I think that there's, I don't mind him at the top of the key as much as I used to. I also think that the two-man games that he can run out there are really fast. fascinating because he can drive and he can get to the hoop. All right, I want to talk a little bit about the other side of the Jimmy Butler trade. That's the Timberwolves who won last night. But before we do that, let's get some on the ground reporting from our Central Florida correspondent, Kevin Clark. All right.

Now Justin and I are joined by the ringers, Kissimmee St. Cloud Bureau Chief, the Prince of Central Florida. Kevin Clark, Kevin, you were at this game last night. It was a top three magic game of the last five years. Can you name the other two? The other ones, the Dwight Howard Lakers win in Los Angeles is probably number one. Vooch had a nice game winner against Lakers a couple years ago. Oladipu had some nice game winners. And then we also beat the Dwight Howard Rockets around Christmas time a couple years ago.

So most of the wins are Dwight Howard centric. Okay. So basically like your magic fandom is built around still hating Dwight Howard. But you guys had... It's not that. It's that nobody gets excited about anything. else. You had the opportunity to see the Sixers firsthand.

What was that 21 to nothing run or whatever it was last night? What was that like to see? Did the Sixers seem mentally weak to you? Did Jimmy Butler start cursing out young children? What happened? Well, they were definitely, the Sixers were definitely feeling themselves. Like, JJ Redick, obviously, I would, just from being around it, I was sitting baseline near the Sixers bench, I think Jay J.J. Redick leads the league and inside jokes with

his teammates. When he hits threes, he would look at the. them and like say things, then they would laugh. And so that was, that was, and we love JJ. I love JJ. He's a magic legend. He is a magic legend. There's like, it's a magic legend. There's like every other way, J.J. Reddick, Dwight Howard. Who else? Boe Outlaw? And Jonathan Isaac. I heard, I heard an amazing story about Bo Outlaw playing corporate softball last night. That he's really bad, but he can, he has such long legs that he just, he just legs out base hits all the time. For what corporation? The Orlando Magic. Oh, I thought like Dunder Miflin.

No, no, no, like they have a ticket sales thing. Is this recent or was this during his heyday? No, no, this is recent. Like someone I met last night. It was like, oh, yeah, I played against Bow Outlaw and softball, like a couple of weeks ago or something. And he was just legging out base hits, like Itchero or something. Kevin, how was the atmosphere in the gym? So in the gym.

So there were a couple things. Number one, during that 19-0 run, it got really loud in a way that I didn't anticipate. I mean, I tend to be fairly negative on Orlando Crows. when it's not the playoffs. And they got really, really loud. I mean, the Jonathan Isaac block

into the Terrence Ross 3, which basically was the icing on the cake of that run, was as exciting as anything I can remember, especially in the new building. So the atmosphere was great. I will ask you, Chris, why is there such a low bar

for Sixers fans to be impressed with anything Joel M. B. does? Yeah. Like, he was doing just very basic pivots, and they were like, whoa. Well, the thing is, though,

There were Sixers fans at the Magic game, though. So there was... That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. I'm talking about the people of the Sixers fans who were around me were just like, well, look at that! And it's an extremely basic move. It reminded me of a couple of years ago, I went to Pierlo's debut for NYCFC,

and he was just sort of like doing very basic things. But every time he touched the ball, the entire crowd would go, ooh. Yeah, all the European soccer snobs came out and just been like, oh, me, I'm all. Yeah, he's so smart. It's like jazz. And I kind of feel like the Sixers fans do that a little bit with Embed

where he's just doing pretty basic stuff and they act like he just invented basketball. I thought that was interesting to watch. Great take. That's a good take from you that you think that Jonathan Isaac is better than Joel Embed. I'll be sure to blast that out to Sixers Reddit. Isaac and Mo Bamba and Vooch. Instead of trading for Jimmy Butler, the Sixers, should have traded for a difference maker like Terrence Ross. Right.

They should have traded for a third or fourth center. because that's the blueprint normally. That's it. Yeah. How do you feel about being five, like a average team? Do you want to be tanking right now? Are you okay with this team being what it is, which is a Steve Clifford team? Okay.

So it's funny because I went last night with one of my best friends and then we sat in his corporate sort of his work seats. And so his coworkers were there as well. So I was talking to them. And nobody in this group was like extremely online or anything like that. And so they, I was saying, I was talking about the concept of like maybe being bad again this year and getting a top 10 pick or whatever. Yeah.

And they're just not, like, they're just pretty normal fans and they're not on Twitter or anything. And they seem completely taken, like, just blown away by the fact that I want them to lose. And I kind of feel like, and I don't, just considering, I might want them to lose. I don't know. But what I'm saying is that tanking is like a creation of the mainstream media and that it hasn't really permeated the sunshine state yet. I actually kind of think that.

But beyond that, I also, like, I think Orlando, they just really want to win. Like, they just want to go to a playoff game and enjoy that atmosphere. Like, they haven't had a lot of moments. I mean, it's getting pretty dire. It's been six years since we've done anything relevant. I think that if we can do the 41 and 41 thing and get the eight seed and maybe like, you know, have a nice half against the Raptors or whatever, I think that that's something Orlando needs. And I think that Bomba, Gordon, Isaac, these guys, you can build around them.

maybe you hit on the 16th pick, the 15th pick, whatever it is, 17th pick. I think that I'd prefer that at this point than to take it. They're doing the 12th pick, you know, that kind of thing. Okay, well, when you come back to California, we'll have to have you come in and do an in-depth scouting report of every single magic player, including guys on their G-League. I'll go. They're G-Leaks in Lakeland, about an hour away.

I'll go to some of their games the next five nights. Okay. Yeah, just get some notes down. We'll take a look at them. We'll just do a kind of like more of like a serial like real long-form narrative. A narrative pod. A narrative pod on the, uh, on the Lakeland magic. Hi, I'm Kevin Clark.

This is the Lakeland magic. Okay, Kevin, thank you so much for calling in, man. Thanks guys. All right, thanks so much to Kevin. Let's talk a little bit about the Timberwolves. If the Sixers raised their ceiling with this Jimmy Butler trade, and you alluded to this, I think it's fair to say that the wolves drastically raised their basement with this trade. Yeah.

So let's talk a little bit about them. They had five starters and double judge at school. scoring last night in their victory over the Pelicans. Josh Kogi, off the bench, also went for double digits. And this is what happens when you replace an asshole of Robert Covington. They moved the ball more. This was the highest assist percentage they racked up this season. And they seemed like they were getting in their offense way earlier.

Shots were coming way earlier in the shot clock. It wasn't a lot of plotting. They shot a fair amount of threes. And they looked really, really solid last night. Yeah, Covington and Sarich are just like the good hangs in the NBA. and it just seems like everything just like lifts in spirit as a result of them. And they had that effect on the Sixers and they're having that effect on the wolves. And I think not only are they probably like really nice guys, but also like their game makes things so much easier for everybody around them.

So I think it does have a trickle down effect to where things move a little bit more quickly. You don't have to consider them as much. Roco is just kind of, you know, be an elite defensive presence and just hit open shots when he has them. there's just like something to be said about low maintenance guys especially when you have a guy like towns who despite everything bad that we said about him is probably what one of the 10 most talented guys in the league easily yeah easily and it's just like auto double double before you even get into the impact of that double you know what I mean like it's just like he's going to get the counting stats that they're going to keep you in a game

I think it's interesting to compare Covington you know we always talk about how what it would look like for Clay Thompson to be on a different team to kind of be the first or second option on a different team. And I think though Covington obviously is not as good as Clay. He was like the fourth, sometimes fifth option on the Sixers. Now he's going to be the second, maybe the third option on the Woes. I think we're going to see him kind of take, it looked like last night. Like he's ready to kind of expand his game a little more or be much more of a,

not just like a leader, but also just like produce more, have more production. And he looked so much more comfortable, like not more comfortable, but he looked like he could do more. You know what I'm saying? And I think that him, you know, we might be surprised. at how good he might be in this team. Oh, I mean, I just thought that, I mean, I walked into our office, and Megan Schuster, who's a T. Wolves fan, was like, I just was so relieved to be watching basketball free of drama.

And then Connor Evans, who's a new editor over at this site, was talking about how he's a huge college basketball fan. He's like, that's the most aggressive and happy I've seen Wiggins in a really long time last night. Yep. And, you know, you kind of look at what they did together last night. And Carl was taking a lot of, like, physical, he was absorbing a lot of punishment and seemed to be like getting stronger from it and that had that like I'm feeding off the crowd thing

that I don't think he's had in the long time. All those things are kind of intangible old school sports writer bullshit things. But I don't know, I was watching that last night and I was just like, you can tell he's like in this and he sees himself as the hero of this team now. Yeah, and Wiggins looked like a fun, young, bouncy athlete. Right.

Everything we said about him coming into the league. And if you think about it, he's never really gotten that opportunity on a good team before. he was thrust into the LeBron James drama as soon as he got into the league. Yeah, he probably didn't develop right. And when he first got there,

he probably fell into this malaise where he thought he was a star, but probably isn't. But now he's kind of this fifth just athletic marvel, and he can kind of just bounce around the court simply because you have Covington basically being the adult in the room and taking care of all the things that he no longer has to take care of.

Not for nothing. Dario is a playmaker from a position that they haven't typically gotten playmaking from. He can pass. He can shoot a little bit, although that's been rough this season. But he's multifaceted in a way that I think typically, like, whether it's Taj or Gorgi or whoever they've been kind of running out there to pair at the three or four, is not going to give them. They just have like a crew of like young wings that are really good now.

Yeah, I think there's that, yeah. And I think that's the reason we might look back and praise them for drafting Okogi because he's just like an athletic wing who can do a lot of different things and play really hard. And like, now you have Sarge and Covington who can also do that. And now it's just kind of like we're just going to throw bodies out there, pick up the pace a little bit. And it's like, what do we got to lose? And it's going to be so much more of a fun aesthetic,

league pleasing team too. I think the interesting thing is now we're going to come head to head with this new fun Wolves team and what they used to be under Tibbs. Yeah. Because Derek Rose did not play this game. Yeah. And so we wonder, I mean, he had been starting with Teague and the game, between the Butler trade and this one.

So I do wonder if he is healthy and available, will Tibbs turn the keys over to him again and this fun will quickly dissipate? Or do we get this and Rose comes off the bench and is more just kind of like value- Or is there anybody that you could talk into trading for Rose? Or is Rose like, I'm so happy to have a career renaissance or small career renaissance that I'll state,

I'm happy to come off the bench in Minnesota if things are working out. I mean, I initially read the trade as them turning this over to Rose. Like, I thought that Tibbs was just like lean into that. He took like 25 shots the night that they didn't like whenever the night the in-between night was that Rose was still playing I think Rose had the most field goal attempts and he has been good He's been a good score and but

I don't know I don't know if he really jives with what they're doing because the ball was moving at times I'm really interesting to see Going back to the sixers a little bit like the pace difference for both teams because I think the sixers might slow down a little bit Ideally they shouldn't if like we talked about like Simmons kind of goes against what Brett Brown wants to do Yeah, he wants to run and I think that the wolves will pick up up a little bit. And I think kind of how those two things fare out will be interesting to keep an eye on for the rest of the season. All right. And to Powell's point, 104.5 is the pace last night in that Pelicans game, which the

pelicans are going to run. But at the same time, look like the wolves were getting out there. Yeah. And then even more so when they even were playing in the half court, I felt like those shots were going up with like 18 seconds, 20 seconds, you know, 18, 16 seconds left on the clock. So you're getting it, you're getting more looks like that. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and we're going to come back and talk about all this Warriors drama. Today's episode of The Ringer MBA show is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You know it's not smart job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. But you know it is smart?

ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer MBA. Unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter doesn't wait for candidates to find you. ZipRecruiter finds them for you. It's powerful matching technology scans thousands of resumes, identifies people with the right skills, education, and experience for your job, and actively invites them to apply. So you get qualified candidates fast. No more sorting through the wrong resumes.

more waiting for the right candidates to apply. It's no wonder ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the U.S. And the rating comes from the hiring sites on Trust Pilot with over 1,000 reviews. And right now, our listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address. It's ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer MBA, ZipRecruiter. com slash Ringer MBA ZipRecruiter. It's the smartest way to hire. You know what's funny about this warrior story is it is like the perfect crystallization

of why people are obsessed with the NBA. Because everything about it is actually like extremely relatable. This is the Super Bowl for us. Well, it's not even like eyeball emoji content stuff, but it's also like, this is how like fights and relationships happen. Yeah. Somebody says something a little aggressive. Then you find out you're fighting about something totally different.

And then someone is like, well, I'm leaving. And you're like, you're leaving. Fuck you. I'm leaving. And then like you, somebody gets fined. You know, my wife... And then you look back around it and you're like, what will we do? Yeah, and then it's just like, if you tell anyone about it, it's like, well, then if you tell somebody about it, then now next time I see them, they're going to know that we had this fight.

You know what I mean? Like, everything about it is like so real for everybody's lives, aside from the fact that this is probably the best team we've ever seen. Yeah, there's something comforting about it that for years we've been like, what will take down the wars? Is it hubris? Is it like the cap mechanics? The disease? Yeah, yeah. Is it just like the way they share?

the ball. No, it's someone just being a dick. Someone being a giant dickhead and just calling someone out and saying something that they really should not have. Yes. So, there's a lot of what we think and what we know this story and that's what makes it so interesting to talk about. But obviously, unless you've been living under Iraq, a couple of nights ago, the Warriors

were playing the... Clippers. In Los Angeles, California, where we live. And Justin was there. I'd love to get some first-hand takes on this. Because, you know, as the game was happening, Bill was just slacking all of us and being like, holy shit, like, I think, like, KD and Draymond are going to get in a fight.

Right. And I think, you know, generally, like, people bark on benches at each other. Typically, not as much as I think that we think, but there, it does happen. Like, people get angry at one another. And, you know, I think when Bill mentioned that, everybody was like, yeah, who cares? Like, those guys barking each other. And it just really blew up. And now we do live in a world where, like, there's so much interest in the kind of marginalia of the NBA that nothing can happen on a court or in a stadium or anywhere.

without people knowing about it and people talking about it. Especially if Bill is filming it. Especially if SG's got the Zepruder camera going. And shout's to him. I completely missed it. Like, it's funny, the person who is sitting next to me, I guess saw them talking, and he used it as example as, like,

Draymond and Andre Aguadala still talking to KD about moving the ball. Little did we know that they were saying that, but they were shouting at him about that. Yes. And then it just spilled over from there. I didn't do postgame, but it didn't seem like there was much of a post game. Yeah, Kevin O'Connor said that KD bolted, and then there obviously there's been reports since then

that there was like heated conversations in the locker room afterwards. And what it all boils down to is this. There was a play towards the end of regulation where Dremont Green, I thought did a very Dremont play, but I could understand why it pissed Kevin Duran off, which was essentially leaped in front of Kevin Durant to grab the ball and take it up the court. And Kevin Duran was calling for the ball and clapping for. the ball and saying, give me the ball. And Draymond kind of went for the full head of steam towards the paint and just got tripped up

and time expired and they went to overtime, which the Warriors lost. And Kevin Durant fouled out. When they were waiting for overtime to start again, they got into this altercation. In that altercation, there was apparently Kevin Durant busting Green's chops about not passing him the ball and then Green flipping out and invoking Kevin Durant's upcoming free agency and the fact that he hasn't really committed to the Warriors and was basically, like, I mean, there's a lot of different, like, who do you believe here? Like, who's a

county believe? But there was a lot of, like, calling him a bitch and, like, they were MFing each other. And it was really fascinating to watch Durant's face change over the course of the altercation because at first you can tell he's just like fucking Draymond. And then he's just like, what did you say? And they, and like, and then Drayman is like losing it.

Like, Drayman will not let it go. It seems like from the reports of, like, people in the know, people who are like, you know, are with the team or like, know the team wild like that. And they're not saying exactly what was said, but they're saying it was far more than what was like, what has been like explicitly reported that he said to him. So I think, I think whether we find out what that is, I don't know, but I think it definitely

seems like Dremont took it to another level. I think the interesting thing is like, everybody seems to think that this is kind of like a burgeoning situation, like this was coming. And that's the most fascinating thing to think to me because I think that the free agency angle of this is like cannot be overstated because it's kind of what like, what LeBron did to the Cavs. Like, he was just doing one plus one deals. And it's like, at some point, that becomes, like, you know,

like bothersome to the Cavs to the team. And now, and I can't even imagine to Draymond. So I, like, in a weird way, I, like, sort of understand him reacting this way. Maybe the execution of the, of the, of the, of the, of the method. I get what you're saying. I push back slightly against the, this was, the cracks were there part. Because, I mean, how many times have you ever been in an argument with a significant other where you, like, you walked in the door, you weren't expecting to get an argument.

Well, this is why I'm. single. I don't know. Like, is this something that was under the surface and just needed to be ripped out? The Warriors were fucking busting people up this season. Like, they looked so happy. I know. But I think that they can separate the work, which is the dominating basketball teams on the

court and the outside of the work, which is like the free agency and the contracts and like money and all that. Yeah, this just goes back to what we were saying before about it. It's just being like a splintering of personalities rather than any sort of thing that were used to causing riffs amongst teams. It just seems like Draymond is a really like pissy sort of guy. And like these things were just nagging on him constantly that they have played a certain way and they invited KD into this like culture that they developed for. Draymond invited him.

Well, yeah. I mean, he was the one sending those texts. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so it does seem like this divide was always simmering in KD's free agency and the way that he's handled it is what kind of brought it about. I think it's really interesting to Paul's point about free agency. I think it's also to look interesting to look at it from Draymond's perspective. Simply because, yes, Kevin Durant's free agency this summer is going to be a big deal.

But as we were on the site today, Kevin O'Connor, it does seem like Draymond's free agency two years from now is the actual thing that will decide whether this dynasty takes on to a next phase. And I do wonder from his perspective, the fact that he took on a bargain deal when he signed his max a few years ago, in order to potentially create space for Kevin later on the road, whether or not some of the resentment he feels is because of that, because he's going to be 32 years from now, and I wonder if he will ever make up that money again. That's a very, very important point.

Like, it seems like the public, you know, suspension without pay kind of thing. I mean, it's clear cut that they're siding with Duran on, like the ownership and the coach, they're siding with Duran on this in terms of like, we clearly want to keep, want to make sure this one guy knows that we want him. what I'm saying. Which is weird because... It's really weird. I get it. Durant, like, you just can't make that up. And not only is he just like a

singular talent, but just financially, there's no way for them to get any sort of like even just a league average player to fill his spots. They're up against the cap and they would have to do it with exceptions. And as we've seen this far, it's been guys like Nick Young and injured to Mark his cousins.

I just don't know... I think they'll end up losing both of them. I think is the interesting thing from this all. Because if you assume, that Kevin Durant is going to leave regardless, which seems like what is simmering amongst all the reports that have come out as a result. I don't know why you would take the extra step

of alienating your second player who, despite all of his offensive woes, is still the best defensive player in the league. Yeah, and is essentially the competitive spirit of the team. It's the kind of guy who is with a few guys on that team, like Clay, Steph and Kevin, I think you would all, I think they all need someone, if not Dremont, someone like Dremont,

someone like Andre Aguadala who's a little bit more aggressive and a little bit more in your face personality-wise. I'm fascinated to watch this going forward. I can't believe how bad it broke so fast. And I guess this is what happens when you have like 20 guys covering the Warriors. Yeah. It's like this is actually what happens to super teams. And what happens with these teams when they make themselves into juggernauts is that the media attention is so fierce. And you've got agents and you've got hangers on.

and you've got people who were trying to forward their own agenda kind of suggesting different things. One of the most fascinating little details that came out about this was that Draymond was really bugged out about the fact that they were finding him or at least finding him this much, I think it was? Because he was like, but when I went flipped out at Steve Kerr in 2016,

it was like a 10 grand fine or whatever it was. And it's like, so he's like actually still like, well, the last time I stole the car, you didn't get mad at all. You know what I mean? Right. And to that point, like, we talk about how like, why would you alienate Draymond? like maybe it's because you're sick of him. Like maybe that's the answer, you know?

Like, yeah, he's such a valuable part of the team. And like, I don't know, we can have a discussion of like who is technically more valuable in terms of like who brings more energy. And obviously Drain is one of the two best players in the league. But I think it's interesting to think about the totality of Dremont's golden state career and like how much that has, you know, maybe created some tension within the franchise that maybe they're just sick of. Yeah, Dramon's the heart and soul of the team. He has been this entire time. And I just think that regardless of how valuable Kevin Durant is from just a purely objective standpoint, he has always seemed like an outsider. He, like, he made this decision in order to kind of rid himself of whatever tension existed between him and Russ.

But I think it's interesting to look at him now because he does seem to be the source of tension wherever he goes. He exists almost outside of any of our learned traditional ways of thinking about things. Like he, by all, by all optic and analytical, you know, ways of looking at basketball is one of the best. two or three basketball players in the league, yet we don't really even, I don't feel like I have a lot of conversations about him being that. You know, it's always people who are pushing

to get into that group or people who are remaining in that group, Steph, LeBron, Harden, or it's Janice and Embed and these guys coming up behind. But it's never like, let's take a second to appreciate Kevin Durant. He got with the rings

and he got to play in this harmonious basketball environment where all he wants to do is hoop and start apps, and like that's great. But I feel like he's been taken out of the story of basketball. ball a little bit. Well, it's also interesting because I don't think he's necessarily

a bad guy. No. It's just, like, if anything, it was weird to read some of the reports because everyone knew something was up because Kevin usually lingers in the locker room and I guess like just shoots the shit with everybody. He just wants to talk hoops, as we saw with his podcast with Bill. He just really wanted to talk about

any basketball subject for five hour long podcasts. But it just seems like something about his moroseness in like this weird thing where like he wants to be validated, but at the same time wants to express that he does not want to be validated. Somehow, like, seeps into the pores of the team, and I think it has shown more this time than it ever did in OKC, because we instantly gravitated toward just the lightning rod that Russell Westbrook is.

And there's something else that, I'll let you get to your point in just second pal, but there was something else that came up a couple weeks, like about 10 days ago that I thought was actually a pretty interesting thing to keep in mind as well, which is that Kevin Durant took a tour of the new Warrior Stadium, which is going to be like this fucking, you know, avatar, future tech, basketball for the, you know, 22nd century thing.

And, you know, they had him walk through it. I think he was the first player who had ever been inside the cordon of like the construction area. Well, even when they broke ground a few years ago, he was the one at the ceremony. Yes, right. I remember that. Because Joe Lakeup was a new owner and he inherited Steph and the reporting from guys on the ground was always that

KD was, Lakeups guy. Yeah. Yeah. So that's something to keep in mind is that the warriors are obviously concerned about this year. They're concerned about what they're going to do this season. But they have a very expensive stadium that has being built for a super team, not for a seven-seed warriors. Or look, I mean, I think the Warriors with Steph and Clay, and then you have to start talking seriously, like, if they were to lose Durant, if Drayman was unhappy.

like there's no better place for Anthony Davis in the world than Golden State. Jeez. You know, but... Gentry would love Draymond. He is the biggest Draymond fan. Well, be that as it may. I mean, like, that would, I mean, that would not do wonders for the Pelicans. You know what I mean?

Like, I just think it's really important to keep in mind that the Warriors are thinking about long-term investments here. And that's why it's not like, oh, Kevin Durant wants to take off, screw it. We got the rings out of him and he got his rings out of us. And now let's move on. Let's go back to Splash Brothers. and whatever. What were you going to say? It is just like fascinating to that point to

is just how they are very much like we are the super team and we're going to be a dynasty. But at the same time to your point like Joe Lecox guy is Duran. Like if you're like one of those like you know billionaires like the things you acquire by your own power

like are things that are you're going to value more. And in the way like it's just like a weird kind of tension between like one of the best players in the league and one of the best teams in history. And like where does the like what is the priority eventually? And I think we're going to see that shake out, obviously, in the next few months. Because it seems like Durant's gone.

But at the same time, maybe the Warriors think they, if anybody's going to keep them, it's like them. They can still convince them to keep them. All right. So as we were recording, Traymond decided to talk to the media, the assembled media. They're getting ready for this Rockets game tonight. Bobby, let's go to some of that audio. You know, and I've read a lot about how is this the end of the run, or is it over,

or did I ruin it, or did I force Kevin to leave? You know, at the end of the day, as I've said before, whatever Kevin decided to do, whatever Clay decided, whatever who decides to do, you know, we had great years together and I support everybody wholeheartedly 100%. As a man, as a human being, you've got the right to do what you want to do with your life. Okay, so we're not trying to take things out of context. That was a condensed version of what Draymond said, or at least a snippet of what Draymond said. He was basically like, if you think we were tough to do that. to beat before. We're going to be even tougher to beat now.

But crucially, he also said if guys move on and if guys leave, like, I support them. Look, nobody's coming out and just being like Kevin Durant's staying with the Warriors. And we've, like, learned from enough summers of endless nights working in July.

But that means Kevin Durant's leaving the Warriors. Yeah. I think it's... The question is whether they can play through that. I commend them for honestly being so upfront about this. Like, they just like, they talk about this as if it was like something basketball-related. that is not like that important, but it actually in the grand scheme

of things, it's like, oh yeah, like Kevin Durant might be leaving. Like, they just talk about it so openly that it's almost like, cool. Like, I mean,

I appreciate it just from like a media standpoint. But like, I don't know. I just, it doesn't, it, it comes back to me to the point that you made earlier

where it's like, team versus Durant. Like the Warriors, it seems like everybody's bought in. Draman took less money. Clay took, like they have cheaper contracts, you know,

to be able to fit Kevin in. You know, Curry is obviously to sell, was a superstar. Duran, it's like its own entity. And I think that is never going to be, they're never going to be a thing together.

So there is no logical conclusion to me that makes sense for them, like, moving long term forward. I just, I love this statement. It's just like, it really just crystallize the whole warrior's experience. This is the line that they walk. Like, they might just, like, almost come to blows. And then, like, five minutes later,

they might just put up 30 points in, like, in, like, two seconds. Yeah. It's just, they just, have so much talent on this team. If they just get through this season, they're probably going to win. And now we could let the overarching existentialism of Durant's decision kind of seep into it. But if they can just get through the season, there's no team anywhere closer. No, I mean, that was the thing that I think I was grappling with.

And thank God for Jimmy Butler, because for as much as the Bucks and the Raptors came out of the gates so fast. And it was just like, oh, this is really exciting. The East is kind of secretly better than the, like, more exciting to watch than the West on any given night. there was certain rhythms to the season that were developing like Portland being a good regular season team and you know like there here come and but the one rhythm that was over was pounding over everything was just that the Warriors are unbeatable unbeatable in this configuration and that almost is like its own

existential question I'm sure for the guys on the Warriors it's like like you have to have motivation and you can hear Dremont creating motivation out of this as if you guys doubted us you guys thought this was the end. Well, it turns out you're wrong. And no matter what happens next year, no one's going to beat us this year. Somebody posted a picture, like, about an hour ago on Twitter was Katie and Draymondo walking to shoot around together. Oh, that's beautiful. Harmony. I mean, yeah, and the new cycle does move so quickly. Yeah. Like, we were talking about Jimmy Butler on Saturday. We were talking about Mello on Sunday. And now we're talking about the Warriors on Monday. Yeah, I know.

So, like, to Draymond's point, I think, like, this can flip very quickly. Let me just ask you guys, Do you think if the Warriors get worked by the Rockets tonight? They're in Houston. Rockets are heating up a little bit. Hardin's obviously feeling it. Let's just say they win by like 11 or something like that. Does this story get a second life? Yes, only because they're going to keep being asked about it.

And I think that even in the distance, I don't know when Boogie's going to come back. I think he drags up a lot of questions about how this is. No shit. You mean he won't be even a peacemaker? Yeah, well, he was. He was. He was.

Yeah, he was. But he's got his own history. true with Durant, man. I know, but I think just from a purely just like basketball point of view, they won't be able to ignore that part of it because working him in requires more sacrifices from everybody. And if they're already struggling with it now, I think Boogie has a tendency to exacerbate everything.

I think it'll be a thing until Steph comes back. Because I think that that's a very good point. I think that the team just on and off the court, it seems like it takes on a different kind of persona. Daddine and Steph needs to get back in the mix. They need their calming presence. And obviously when he's playing and can go off on any giving night, it gives him like a different kind of...

He's also the calming presence in that, like, theoretically, I mean, I know Dremont brings the ball up a lot, but like him, his presence in that Clippers game changes that clifers game entirely, you know? Yeah. Clay was having to be Clay and Steph that night. Right. Yeah, and I think it's interesting that Steph is on this road trip, even though he's not playing.

Yeah, well, he better be. Somebody needs to keep the peace. All right, right before we go, I just want to ask you guys about two trends, a couple of trends, like just streaks that we got going on. I'm going to go through them. you tell me whether or not you think this is the real thing or this is just an aberration. The Spurs have fallen out of the playoff spots and are starting to slow down a little bit.

I think the big conversation before the season was that could this be the year the Spurs missed the playoffs? Should the Spurs miss the playoffs for the long-term benefit of the franchise? Have you guys gotten a chance to see them recently? And if so, what are you seeing? I just think there's like, it's the same thing that's kind of played the Raptors in a way with the Rosen in terms of Like how much of a load can he carry, right? And I think that while I think it's going to level out and personally, I would still say that they'll make it,

maybe the 8 seed, but I think that it'll be interesting to see how much, like, De Rosen can actually handle over the course of an 82 game season. I think my reason for skepticism, skepticism coming into this season was that De Rosen, not only does he, is he not quite Leonard on both ends, but he will essentially just mitigate their advantage for the past couple of years,

which was on the defensive end. Yeah. They are currently 16th in defensive efficiency, and while they are better on offense that they have been than last season, I do think if you're going to play at that pace, if you're going to shoot twos, you need to be able to counter on the other end.

Yeah, okay, so let's talk about a team that's blossoming right now, and that's the Thunder who are 9 and 1 in their last 10. Paulo Gettys Thunder. They look dynamite. They actually, I mean, anybody who watches the Thunder is always like,

damn, this is the year of Brunis and Ferguson really step up. It does seem like there was a crucial thing that happened the other night, which was that at the end of a game, I think Paul George was essentially on floor generaling the defense and was putting Ferguson on guys that Paul George would normally guard. He was like doing switches and he was like, those guys need to learn. Now, there was something really fascinating.

I just wanted to bring this up with regards to the Thunder who were doing a very good job beating teams that are worse than them. And Billy Donovan gave a really, really thoughtful answer to a question about like how come you guys are beating teams that are traditionally worse than you this year when you had so many problems with it over the years and it's like especially the Westbrook MVP years

just like every time it felt like they played the magic it was like what the hell is going on you know like right um hey the magic are good this year well the magic are good this year but Billy Donovan said that uh he's talking about how the teams that don't have star power essentially are so active physically and speedwise

and are shooting so many three that that is like the great equalizer and that that's been a trend over the last couple years but it's really crystallized this year and that the thunder have just made it their life's mission right now to defend the three and that if you can defend the three

if you have a talent advantage the talent advantage will win out and if you can properly defend against what he calls analytical basketball which we probably loosely describe as Mori ball if you can defend that specifically your talent leverage

should win out and it does seem like so far on any given night, if they've got Westbrook, George, and Stephen Adams, they've got probably three of the best four players on the court. They're winning these games. I mean, this is why I was so high on the team in the first place. I thought that their defense was going to be really good. And I thought that a second year of Westbrook and George together

was going to yield better results. And free of all this KD shit, free of all the like, is he staying or is he going, and what do we have to do to impress him? Exactly. So now it's about taking a step forward Obviously they didn't get off to that start We expected at the beginning of the season

But I think like a game like last night Makes me a little bit even more frustrated with Paul George Because he has this in him Like he had 35 I think it was 35 points like he was a force on both ends like That's the player that like he should be on maybe not every night But like more often he doesn't have it he doesn't have that Well that's the thing is like he just doesn't have that characteristic I've been watching Paul George for like better part 10 years

This is like tantalizing and then he'll recede and score 3 and kind of be checked out. Yeah, but it does seem like the team has leaned into, like, his identity and versus absence. And I'm just looking at the defense of, like, the top of the rankings. And outside of Boston, who has struggled but has maintained a consistent pace here in terms of wins, they're at top. But Oklahoma City follows them, Milwaukee, Memphis.

These are three of the biggest teams that have kind of, like, broken through in this where they run. And I think there's something to be said about to Billy Donovan's point that if you can control that end, it does feel like there's a way to. to kind of almost dictate the way things are going. I mean, I wrote way too many words about defense and just one of the most interesting things

that came out about it is just how much it affects the game overall, how much it affects offense. And it seems like a lot of these teams are taking cues from that end. They're dictating pace. They're denying transition opportunities. And I just feel like that is winning out in this early going.

Yeah, they're wearing teams out earlier because there's so much running up and down. there's and and like it's like March Madness basically like no lead is safe. The Sixers were up like 12 points with nine minutes to go. I mean usually I when we were kids

that was usually the gate you can turn the game off except for like random comebacks. Now pretty much every night whether the Lakers are winning or losing I expect a fourth quarter surge from somebody and it's it's going it's kind of like spreading across basketball

it's like great for games but it is kind of like wow it must be nuts to coach against this because if teams are taking 42 three-pointers a night No lead is safe Right I mean it happened last night with the Laker game

I was there and they were up The Blazers brought up almost 20 points In the early going and then It completely flipped like now A lot of that was just LeBron turning it on Which like it was an encapsulation of like Why it's hard to like distress this Laker team Because like LeBron can do that

I mean I was just so I mean that's happened I mean you wrote about this and it's happened with most Laker games Like no lead is safe but also like They have this propensity to like Find themselves in these games and maybe that's because he won't let them get blown out, but they can't protect any lead. It is interesting to watch these teams that have such a high-octane offense

that push the pace that can rack up 126 now because you've seen the scores kind of level off. Maybe teams are getting used to the emphasis on off-ball holding. Maybe it's just like the league kind of settling into a certain rhythm. Maybe teams are getting hurt. I don't know what it is specifically, but it does seem like there is an advantage for a Lakers team that can still put up 130 on everybody.

And I wonder what it means going, forward. I mean, the Lakers, I didn't watch the entire game, but it seemed like they were clicking in a way that they haven't been in the past. And now I wonder with Rondo out, at the very least, they make a little bit more sense. They know who they are a little bit more. And so we'll see if Lonzo can kind of step into that role. Also see if Mello's coming to the Lakers. They never know. All right. No show next week. It's Thanksgiving. So happy Thanksgiving to you guys. Happy Thanksgiving to Bobby and all of our listeners. I'm sure when we get back, we will somehow have changed drastically four or five times.

so we'll have plenty to talk about. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.