The Ringer NBA Show - Remaining NBA Offseason Questions | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 6, 2022

As the first week of NBA free agency winds down, Justin, Rob, and Wos discuss some of the remaining questions for teams around the league. They talk about Donovan Mitchell (4:42), D’Angelo Russell, (20:42), the Brooklyn Nets (38:50), and more. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Ian Wright. Make sure you check out my podcast. Writers' house every Wednesday on Ringer F.C. Each week, I'm joined by a rotating panel guest to talk about football, life, films, everything. Search of Ringersc on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Take it easy. Group chat, I am Justin Barrier. Joining me as always, Rob Mahoney, Big Was. Did you get a glimpse at the future last night when you saw those clips of Chet Holmgren blocking every shot? Step back threes. Are you excited for the future? I am really excited for the future. Another full court fits alum, shouts to the Chetster. The roster grows. Yeah, yeah, the roster grows. Our bond has been cemented in blood. So I'm riding the train, the Big Seven, the Chetster.

I'm fully on board. That was a lot of fun, honestly. Watching the highlights. I didn't watch the game. Shout to Steve Jones, Jr. the son of Snapper Jones, a great freaking NBA media, Twitter, follow,

former scout, incredible video breakdowns. I just watched his feed. And he showed some of the Chet shortcomings. Like he got bullied a couple of times or whatever, but mostly relentless motor, like really understands his positioning in a drop coverage, can't switch on the guys.

He showed, he flashed the handle, a step back, a pull-up three. This was, insane, a dirk, one-footed turnaround? Sure. This was, wow. I mean, this must have had people in the prairie creaming their pants, Justin.

Oh, boy. Jesus. 10 in the morning was. But I have one thing to ask of Chet. Can we chill? Like, we haven't even gotten out to Summer League yet. I want to see this guy play. I'm worried he's going to get yanked out of there if he's playing like that.

I know. This wasn't even. even the big boy Summer League. This was Utah Summer League. Save it for Vegas, my guy. I know. Where do you guys stand on Summer League altogether? Rob, are you excited to get your first glimpse at these prospects?

Are you pooing it just in order to go shake some hands and eat some dipping dots? I mean, I'm going to do those things too. But I don't poo anything, especially, you know, for people like us who know zero about college basketball, it's nice to be introduced. You know, we get the soft launch of the Jet Holmgren experience. We get to familiarize ourselves with these guys' skill sets with what they can do, you know, to some extent. It's tough out there for certain kinds of players at Summer League,

but it's nice to get an introduction. Yeah, I think I don't watch college. That's the one. And it's fun to fire off tweets that say Josh Giddy's a bust after watching a play for like five possessions. But no, but honestly, like, at Summer League last year, when I watched Jalen Green for the first time ever, and to watch him just be slum.

Like, his explosiveness in person, like, that's tangible. You feel that thing. That's a visceral feeling of watching Jalen Green's athleticism in real time and being like, man, he's going to be a hard person to deal with if he gets some of the shooting and ball handling stuff down. So, yeah, I enjoy that. And really, you know, the Summer League is basically summer camp for NBA people, media people like us, management types, coaches.

everybody's having fun. Everybody's optimistic about the great moves. Their team just pulled off. And so it's just a fun atmosphere because the positivity, hope springs eternal in Las Vegas of all places during NBA Summer League. Yeah, it's a magical place. Well, that's a good segue to what we're going to talk about today, which is looking forward based on what happened in free agency thus far.

So we've had like what? Almost a week since. the gates opened of the gates of hell opened and kevin der and trays just came flying out there but we got a lot of other moves uh so that those moves prompted a lot of next questions like what's going to happen as a follow-up to what just happened and so i want to get to a couple of those uh let's start with in utah where it seems like the rebuild is underway question mark uh rudy gobert trade went down i'm sure you heard all about that on the ringer podcast network uh so So what I want to talk about, though, is Donovan Mitchell, the last man standing, as you will, in Utah, as Danny Ains just like takes his scalpel to everything he can find.

I think the open question is whether or not they're going to build around Mitchell or they're going to trade him and fully bottom out. And so, was, I guess the question ultimately becomes, like, do you think Mitchell's the type of player that they should build around or should they be thinking about moving him to? You know, this is actually a pretty fascinating question because of the KD trade demand, right? A guy with four years left on his deal, making a trade demand, and being accommodated in that demand. And then you have Donovan Mitchell, who there's been all of these whispers about him wanting out, him wanting to be in a place like New York, stuff like that. but because Donovan Mitchell is not as good as KD, it makes it so that you don't have to trade him. Like, the point of having KD on your team

is that when he's right and he's engaged, he makes you a championship level team, right? And so if you're some rebuilding team, if you're some middling team, the only reason to get KD is to try to win championships. Donovan Mitchell is proven, even when he's trying, you ain't that championship caliber. And so a rebuilding team,

You don't have to accommodate him. Even if he's like, oh, I'm not happy. Tough, you have three years left on your deal. You're clearly not going to make us some juggernaut team by yourself. That's been proven even when we put talent around you. So when we tear this thing now to the studs and rebuild, your talent isn't such that it makes us that much better. So they can just buy their time and wait for a team to come with an offer that blows them away.

And I think that's what Danny Aange is going to do. And I want to say this, addendum to the Danny Ains record. I'm somebody who's been critical of his, like, you know, shit or get off the pot, like him not understanding that concept. But the reason he does that is because when he does get a trade, it's like the Rudy Gobert return. So it's either you're hitting a home run or you're striking out with Danny Ains, essentially.

If he doesn't get the Gobert deal, he's cool with doing nothing because he's confident in his standing. within his organization and just in the league in general. And so I think that's what he'll do with Donovan Mitchell. Until he gets, you know, bowled over by a pick, he can just chill because, again, Donovan Mitchell is not good enough

to change your fortunes by himself, even when you're tanking or rebuilding. Yeah, I think if there's one big takeaway from the Gobert trade, it's that. It's that the jazz were right to sit and wait and listen to the offers and let them roll in and score big. And I think that's what's,

great about their situation with Mitchell and also kind of tenuous about it is they don't have to commit right now to whether they should trade him or not. This is a 25-year-old player, a borderline all-NBA player. They can roll into next season with Mitchell. They can roll into every season with Mitchell until he decides he wants to be traded or another team just completely bulls you over with an offer. So I think you just play this out. I think you continue to rebuild around Mitchell in a non-committal way. And he's a player whose skill set doesn't really demand any kind of like very specific construction anyway. I think you play

it loose and you slow play it and you see what happens because really for the jazz I think there are scenarios in which they're not great next season anyway without Gobert you know unless they radically change their roster unless they flip some of those picks into something really quickly.

I don't think that's necessarily going to happen and so you know you're kind of a rebuilding team with your incumbent star and so that's not a bad place to be as an NBA team. Yeah and I it takes us back to the original question of do you want to build around Donovan Mitchell because you could easily just get rid of him in play for a draft pick, which it seems like a lot of teams are increasingly doing, especially as the Webin Yama bandwagon just fills up.

Just the sidebar. I don't know. Have you seen the photo of Webinjama standing next to Chet Holmgren at some like U-19 style tournament? I need proof that it isn't Photoshopped, that that's not like Godzilla proportions. Yeah, he's like noticeably taller than Czech Holmgren, who I believe just checked in at 7-1, both of whom are like 150 pounds. So eventually we're going to get to an NBA where everyone is like 7-4 and looks like they just stepped off of like a gym class heroes concert.

But anyway, I think that's the big question here. Do you need to go full-blown rebuild and build for a top draft pick? especially in this next draft, not only has Webminiama, but has Scoot Henderson, which people are really excited about. Or are you saying Donovan Mitchell can be our Dame Lillard? We can basically reboot around him with mid-level guys and still be very competitive. And then I think you have to ask the question, is that what you want? Because it doesn't seem like it's gone very well for Portland overall. It's been successful.

And then eventually people want more and they have never been able to reach that line. So I don't know why. Do you think, like, Mitchell can be that for Utah? No. Donovan Mitchell is not as good as Damian Lillard. Donovan Mitchell at his best is nowhere close to as good as Damian Lillard. And the problem is Neil O'Shea put some really janky rosters around Dame Lillard. That's just a fact.

Donovan Mitchell, look, I think this is where you see the lottery odds and the changing of that have an effect here. Utah's not going to be good. look at who they got coming back. It's Mitchell. It's Bogdanovich. It's Conley. And then who's filling in the rest of those positions?

It's just a bunch of dudes. That team will not be good. And I think a lot of the calculation is back in the days, it's like we get rid of Mitchell because not only do we get draft capital in return for him, our own draft picks become better

because the team becomes worse. So it has this compounding effect. But again, because it had changed the lottery rules, it's not as enticing as it was before. And, you know, again, if this team could be, you know, 10th in the West or whatever, that's completely fine, you know. And if they do need to make moves within the lottery, they can probably figure out ways to do so. But I just don't, again, the thing about Donovan Mitchell is that he's not changing your life with this roster. You're not going to be materially better or worse for it. Yeah, but does he make you so good that you are stuck in the middle?

Because I think the other problem here is you are essentially on the clock the length of Donovan Mitchell's contract. Because as you mentioned, he's in the second year of a five year max, has a player option in the last year. So he essentially has three years. And as we've seen with pretty much every star in every team, they're going to apply pressure in order to have a certain team around them. I do wonder if Mitchell starts to be a factor here, like his personal desires. But see, I don't think he is. I don't think he is that good.

And that's kind of where we're landing is he's not a dame. He's not one of these guards who's going to single-handedly drive you to an absolutely elite offense. I know the jazz were an elite offense last season, but I think that was more of a composite picture in which Mitchell played a very prominent part. But you stripped that roster down to studs. You replace it with Pat Beverly's and Jared Vanderbiltz.

I think we're going to get a, a pretty different outcome. The question is, to Oaz's point, is that going to be a 10th place outcome or is that going to be a 13th place outcome? You look at the Knicks last year, picking 11th where they're just straight up just like, we don't even

want to pick 11 in this draft, right? And I think teams will come at Danny and say, look, bro, like, are you going to, are you willing to do the shadiness of Donovan Mitchell, basically any knick-knack, he's missing seven games or whatever? willing to do that? Which I think the answer is clearly going to be yes. Or do you risk these

picks that you claim to be wanting to rebuild with being 11th and 12 picks? That's a game of chicken. I think if you're Danny Aange and you have all this cachet in the state of Utah, you're probably like, I don't care. I'm good doing that. I think he's shown that that's going to be his stance. And so, yeah, I think Mitchell, until somebody comes and is just like obsessed with what he can do for their team going forward and offers Utah a crazy amount of stuff, he's there. He's going to be there. Something interesting about the jazz, though, is, and I know it's new ownership, it's new management, it's a new coaching, it's a new roster.

The jazz historically have not had prolonged periods of being very bad. Just not something they were willing to indulge or that they were interested in doing. And they also turn things around pretty quickly, right? Like they lose Gordon Hayward, they find Donovan Mitchell. all of a sudden they're back in the race in such a big way. I don't know that, I mean, we'll have to see kind of what this ownership group's appetite is for being extremely bad, if that's something that they're interested in indulging for the sake of draft picks, or if the lottery odds as was laid out dissuades them from that.

But that's what's always so interesting about these teams changing hands is, are we going to see the jazz organization we've seen for the better part of the last few decades, or is there kind of a different mode of operation here? Yeah, I guess the more like applicable comp would be the Darren Rolls. Williams trade where they flipped it immediately for draft picks and Derek favors and all of a sudden you were bad for a little while and then eventually you stumbled on Gordon Hayward and you became pretty good. I don't know. I just feel like if that is the path, then you're counting on essentially the draft picks you're going to get from being bad, which means that you're going to have to wait on

those draft picks even longer. And by that point, Donovan Mitchell's probably already asking out. Like, regardless of what the Jazz's plans are here, I do wonder if middial, Mitchell after a season even, if that, he sees the writing on the wall and he's like, get me out of here. And then we're talking about that of the Mitchell traits. I mean, I would be surprised if we weren't talking about it by the end of the summer because we've already been hearing things about this guy when things were going relatively well, like how bad is going to get if they're just playing for the 10th season trying to make the play in. But is that such a bad thing if this is the going rate for an all-star level player? You know, if you can get this kind of

call for Rudy Gobert, what can you get for Donovan Mitchell down the line? A guy who I think is, at minimum, just applies to more situations. More teams could talk themselves into Donovan Mitchell than Rudy Gobert. I'd be really interested to see if the market really opens up for him what that looks like.

See, and I think that's a good next question because who is coming after Donovan Mitchell in that scenario? Like, would he make sense for the Pelicans, a team that has all these draft picks? And it seems like could really lean on the timeline a little bit and just say, hey, now is our time. We're not going to go after Katie, actually.

We're going to get a little bit of a younger guy, maybe not as high of a level of a score, but now it's C.J., Donovan, Mitchell, Brandon Ingram, Herb Jones, Zion Williamson. I think it has to be a team like Minnesota who has a really dynamic player under team control for a long time. Edwards is, he just completed his second year. he's going to do two more years on his rookie deal, plus have a five-year max extension. That's seven years of theoretical, of course,

with today's NBA, player control of a guy who I'm about as bullish on Aunt Edwards as anybody. The way I watched him guard John Morant, how dynamic he is with the ball in his hands, shooting ability he's already flashed, his leadership qualities, all of that. I'm like, shoot, if I got this guy for seven years, it's going to be pretty hard for me to be completely horrible,

barring, you know, some catastrophic injuries going forward. If you're New Orleans, do you think Zion is that? Dude who has just not been able to be on the court. I think talent-wise, he's passed. Yeah, no question. And Edwards, actually, as far as talent and his ability to dominate an NBA game, It's just injury-wise.

You're just like, yo, I can mortgage six years of picks, seven years of picks, because I have player control of Zion for six years, guaranteed. I don't know. You know, I think it has to be a young guy who you have the control. Somebody like freaking John Moran. But even John Moran, you can say, man, are you really confident in his ability to stay on the floor? I think it's got to be a really dynamic young guy who you have player control of.

that's why my mind kind of naturally gravitates toward if I'm handicapping the eventual Donovan Mitchell lottery teams like the Raptors, teams like the heat, you know, again, teams with really good young talent with a very clear need for shot creation and you can see how they would talk themselves into that. Now, I don't know their specific interest in him, like if he's to their taste or not,

but you could, I mean, you plug Donovan Mitchell into an ecosystem like Miami and all of a sudden you're really cooking with something. The heat are really interesting. well, if we're talking about young dynamic talents under contract, who does that describe, if not Jalen Brunson in New York,

who just happened to have a lot of picks after trading out of the number 11. So I could see that make a lot of sense. Let me throw this one at you. Philadelphia. Yeah, I could see, especially a post-James Hardin, Philadelphia, I think.

Well, I'm saying current James Hardin, Philadelphia. Yeah. So you're saying like trade maxi and stuff like that? Yeah. Your window is now. Embed is going to gripe about things throughout the season. If things go bad, just give him Donovan Mitchell.

So it's Harden Mitchell and Bede. Tobias Harris because he's going to be in Philadelphia for another other 10 years. I don't hate it. I don't know. Yeah, right? I'm not mad at the pick. I don't think that's a, I don't think that's a pick.

That's a trade that you say, oh, this is crazy. We shouldn't be giving people picks. until, you know, 2,29 in order to unite James Hardin and Donovan Mitchell. I just think that's a nasty fit. Yeah.

But, you know, because what, like, look, Hardin has been, Harding could be your point guard. Obviously, he's one of the best passes of his generation, still one of the best playmakers in the league. Donovan Mitchell is clearly not. And so maybe, you know,

Hardin's deficiencies in one-on-one shot creation at his age is, sort of mass by what Mitchell can do in that department. And Hardin's incredible playmaking, Mass Donovan Mitchell's complete and utter tunnel vision. So who knows, maybe that is a nice fit going forward. I don't know that you tie yourself at the hip to Joelle and Bede and this idea that he's going to be healthy enough

that you won't feel the repercussions of that. And I don't know that Hardin's good enough right now that a core of him, Joel, Donovan Mitchell and basically nothing else gets them to be this really elite group. I'm not sure that that's the case. But the reality of all this is, like we're talking about they should slow play this trade. All of these hypotheticals are going to be so different by the time they're actually ready to trade Donovan Mitchell, I think. Like all of these team constructions, there's going to be one or two mystery suitors we're not thinking about right now.

It's just going to be a different landscape. Right. Hardin isn't even technically under contract right now. That hasn't been resolved for some reason. All right, let's flip to the other side of the Go Bear trade and talk about the wolves who seemingly have their starting five set here. My question is, should that be the case? Because the Angelo Russell is still very much a part of that starting five. He is on a $31.3 million, final year of his contract. And on the one hand, he fits because clearly the wolves had something last year where Russell and Edwards and Towns did the offense and the other.

their guys just handled the defense and Gobert could just take the role of Jared Vanderbilt and that works to a certain degree. I'm wondering if A, they should be doing that next year and long term what's going to happen. Are you just going to resign DeAndlo Russell and should he be a part of what's going there for? So Rob, do you think Russell fits with this team? And I guess the question after that is should he fit with this team? I mean, I think he's been pretty available. If you want DeAngelo Russell, like your calls will be taken. I don't know that he's been like shop door to door yet,

but I think he's pretty available. And so at this stage, I kind of think he's probably more valuable to the wolves than what they would get back. I just don't see a lot of teams clamoring for the DeAngelo Russell experience. As a lead guard especially. So like what kind of returns are we talking about? it'd be like a, you know, here's two role players in place of DeAngelo Russell. I don't think that's changing your life any more than he does, you know, plugging in.

Is at least a guy who's going to threaten defenses, who's going to attract attention, who can make some smart passes, who can get you organized a little bit. I think, I think Russell is fine where he is so that I'm not like, chomp, like, is it champing at the bit or chomping at the bit? I'm not champing at the bit to move him, but I am listening to anyone. who comes calling. Yeah, and another guy who they've, they'll be able to figure out how to work around his very glaring deficiencies

both on defense because they just traded their whole life for Rudy Gobert and on offense where I think he's going to become a more secondary ball handler type behind the franchise cornerstone. So Rob is right. He's going to be more valuable to them as that secondary dude, as that secondary playmaker out of pick and roll, as somebody who, you know, in the past has flashed some pretty nice pick and roll passes

and creativity that the wolves don't really possess right now. And that Rudy Gobert, quite frankly, has never really played with unless you think Mike Conley is a maestro in the pick and roll. So I think his skills will be sort of needed. here in Minnesota and like again, like, who does need DeAngelo Russell? See, it's a tough question because I've gone through the entire NBA, pretty much every single team. This is really your hobby is trying to, trying to find a new team for DeAngelo Russell,

I would say. Yeah. Well, I'm still a believer deep down. I'm not as ardent of a supporter as I used to be because there's just mounting evidence against the case, but it sucks when that happens. I know. I just, I want to believe. I mean, the Knicks, maybe, because they do have some of these, like, mid-tier veterans, like Evan Fornier, and maybe, I don't know, like a Derek Rose type, and the wolves can use that stuff, right?

But in addition to the Knicks, what about the magic? Come on. Let them have their moment where they're a real rebuilding team. This got the number one pick. You're trying to train him to Angelo Russell? The magic have stuff, you know? But I wonder if Markell Fultz somehow, some way, has pulled ahead of DeAngelo Russell and the trade value for kings.

This is already extremely bleak. This is bleak. It's bleak. And it's not as if the wolves are like dying to do something, you know, as far as being a winner or a contender. Not the wolves, excuse me, the magic are dying to do something like that. I just, I don't know. Like, wait, you're supposed to pair him with Cole Anthony.

I don't know what this is supposed to do for them. Yeah. Organizational. This seems to be a youth movement. And DeAngelo Russell does nothing for that. Right. I think this is my policy to Waz's point about Gobert is, unless I'm getting back a better passer than DeAngelo Russell,

I don't know that I'm super interested right now. Because if you don't have guys who are going to get Gobert the ball, like you're inviting just so many problems. even beyond what Utah had. Yeah, it's always tough when you need to trade someone and what you need back is just a better, cheaper version of that guy. Yeah. It's a really tough sell.

So I wonder if the actual brilliance of this Utah Jazz trade wasn't just the bounty of picks that they got, which was significant, but the fact that they somehow did not take DeAngelo Russell back in this trade and just got a bunch of useful, like, vets on decent contracts that they can now either just, like, use to build the next generation of the jazz, or they can actually just like trade those guys for even more assets. It is a good piece of business. But it is tough because the other whole part of this that we should probably talk about

is the bigger picture of how much these players are going for. It seems like to make any sort of upgrade. And Gobert and DeJante Murray are good players, let's be sure. It's just not the level of some of the players who have gone for this sort of package in recent years, Anthony Davis, Quiet Leonard, etc. and it's becoming tougher and tougher in the NBA, I think, to take the next step without completely mortgaging your future. And I kind of don't know how we got here, Rob. And I wonder if there's any turning back without any sort of like CBA government intervention here.

Well, what's the alternative? You know, like if you're the wolves and you want to trade for a star player, you have to give up real value and you have to give up roughly a salary. And so if you're not giving up a ton of picks, you're giving up Carl Towns. Like, these are the options that, or Ann Edwards, like, these are the options that are available to you if you want to trade for All-Stars. So, like, I think that's why you see these teams that are good who are trying to get to great. By the time they get to good, sometimes they don't have the surplus of cheap young players anymore that they could include in lieu of draft picks. And so then they end up mortgaging not just one or two picks, but their foreseeable draft future.

I think that's where we've seen the escalation is going from, you know, two firsts in a swap to four firsts. You know, that's the arms race right now. Yeah, and I think part of it, too, is the mixed bag of playing the draft pick game. What's so great about Orlando Magic's draft pick game they've been playing since Dwight Howard left town? They've been in the lottery picking in the lottery year after year. after year after year, and what good is having all of those pigs done for them? They've drafted people. These things have not worked out.

Like, it's easy to see the alternatives here, right? Like, sometimes, yeah, you might get the Joe L&B, but then you get the Ben Simmons, too. Or the Jalilil Okafore, right? I think to watch the alternative of being like, you know, we're all clap. We all clap for Sam Presti and Danny Ains when they collect all of these draft picks. But like, I don't know. I don't think Josh Giddy is like, wow,

he's going to be the key cog to a championship team someday. Nobody feels that way. We love Chad. The Josh Giddy slander continued. I'm just saying. I'm just saying, and on and on we go on this sort of wheel of fortune with lottery picks. I can understand seeing that and being like,

what's so great about that, as opposed to being as good as I think the wolves are going to be for the next three, four years. Well, the magic are the extreme example on the negative side. I mean, I think it's like more likely that you're probably going to end up with something decent. And I think the most important thing is you're going to have something under. Or the Sacramento Kings, by the way. Sure. But I mean, the Thunder have done this now twice and they did fine with it.

I think it does come down to who you're picking and organization and like, how good are you at making those picks? But I think it's instructive to look at the teams who are by and large making these big draft pick package trades. It's mostly big markets at this point because they know that like maybe they could turn this into that and maybe like if they have something then a star can come in. Minnesota is a true outlier in that regard. And I wonder if for that reason it's actually way more dangerous to do this in Minnesota as opposed to Atlanta or Los Angeles or Brooklyn or New York because at the very least

you have a lure, I don't know what happens if Rudy Gobert, God forbid, like, breaks his foot. And now they're just like bottom out and they're stuck in this cycle for maybe like longer than they've been in it up to this point. Man, you mean NBA players are underrated in St. Paul real estate? That's ridiculous. Like you say it now, but give the shit 10 years. St. Paul's going to be the best place to live on the planet. Yeah. Sure.

Well, I mean, the other part of this is I do wonder if something that was done I don't know, hastily or at the very least with that big market advantage in their pocket. So the Lakers are the prime example of this. They probably kicked off this era to the most part, like just paying whatever it took to get Anthony Davis. I do wonder if it set a market that it's so tough to come back from. And now other teams are trying to do anything to take that step forward. And the problem is trying to replicate that. Right. Like it made sense for an Anthony Davis, but like, I don't know if it makes as much sense for Dejante Murray. Like, Murray's great and they're going to be okay, but like, I'm not sure I'm going to make

the finals next year or even like three years from now. It only makes, it only makes sense for, well, I think the Hawks are pretty talented team already, young and talented. It's not a bunch of guys who are 34 years old, 32 years old. These guys are under 25, very talented. They made a move to upgrade. like, all right, these guys are all going to be still getting better together. We mortgage some picks, but we think it'll be completely fine.

The Lakers thing is like, first of all, you had to be the market that LeBron James, despite your years of incompetence prior to him showing up, said, I'm going to bring all of my excellence to your organization just because sign outright with you. All you have to do was clear the cap space. So when you're the type of team like Miami and these other type of teams who can just clear cap space, get a really big impactful guy to just come to just show up. And then you figure out how to get all this other stuff in place, that's different. And again, having established young talent, so it's like it might be a hybrid, right,

where it's like you do the Atlanta thing where I've drafted, I feel like I've drafted well enough, have young talent. Now let's put some future assets at play to get some. who is a known quantity in here and make us a much better team. Maybe that's the future is combining the two rather than, because you can't just do the Lakers model. That's not a model. Okay.

Superstars have been forcing their way to that damn team for 50 years, literally. You know, literally 50 years has been happening. Other teams can't go by that. Yeah. I don't know. It's just it just seems like there are a lot of teams and we were talking about this in regard to Supermax contracts and contracts in general just like now reaching to give what should only be given to a select number of players. Yeah. To the next class.

This is the equivalent of Brad Bills 260 million. Right. You're saying. Trading all of these picks for a guy who's as good as Rudy Gobert. We agree. All-MBA type of guy. even though that's mostly because of his position. You know, generational defensive player

probably going to play in the Hall of Fame, maybe not worth the hall that he got in return. And yeah, you know, I see that. I'm not mad at that assessment. I just think there's more than one way to skin a cat and you got to find a way to get talent in there. But I do think when you have somebody who is obviously going,

great, you should be trying to make these moves. Well, is Trey Young obviously great? That's the question. And I do think in terms of like my point about things being replicated and maybe imitated is probably the better word. Like I do wonder if star influence is being imitated by other stars who don't rise to the level of a LeBron James who's saying like, hey, I could win, I could bring you to the finals pretty much every year if you just put enough around me.

And he's proven that over, what, a decade. now. I don't know if Tray Young's that level. And I do wonder if that sort of mindset is being adopted by the Trey Youngs of the world. And like, on the one hand, I don't think it's necessarily bad because you are seeing a lot of very good teams. And I think this year's final is a prime example of like, I don't know, or the playoffs in general were much more interesting in years past when when Golden State versus Cleveland was an inevitability. Like, there are just like a lot of good teams. It reminds me more of like the 90s than years past. But I don't know. I don't know. I think the downside of this all is like, is there going to be like a chasm where everything

flips and a lot of these teams are just like wastelands and Oklahoma City has 20 all-stars on their teams? Like I'm predicting like an escape from New York level apocalypse where it's like only Indiana and Oklahoma City and New Orleans are able to compete anymore. So I don't know what happens when the, what is it, the rooster comes home to something comes home to roost. I don't know what happens. The twins come home to Roost.

Sure, they do too. Rooster comes home. Comes home for work after a long, hard day. I don't know about reading this, though, as like superstar influence. I don't see the DeJante Murray trade and say, that's like Tray Young flexing his muscle. I see a franchise that's a little desperate. And maybe that's because they're worried Tray Young might become unhappy if they don't make moves. And I look at Minnesota and I see a team that,

thought it had reached a certain point and was incredibly eager to bump that up, to get to the second round, to get into the middle or later rounds of the playoffs. I can understand why a franchise would feel that way and that's the difference really when you look league-wide is like what do franchises do when they're feeling desperate? How much are they willing to give up?

What are they willing to concede? And sometimes it bites you. Like, you know, the odds are one of these two trades is going to look bad in five years. You know, that's just the reality. of this many picks going out the door. But if you're looking at them individually, I can totally,

like I like the fit of Dejante Murray with the hawks. I like a lot about what Rudy Gobert brings to the wolves, even though Woz gave him, what I have to say, like your description of Rudy Gobert a second ago, just first ballot, backhanded compliment Hall of Fame. Incredible stuff.

I think Rudy Gobert is going to help them a lot, and they're going to be a really good team for the next couple of years. For the regular season, yeah. I even, I mean, they're going to be a better play. team though. Like Rudy Gober is a better playoff player than Jared Banderbilt is. That's another thing that I wanted to dispel to this five-out stuff, this all of that stuff.

Steph Curry is only going to be a factor in obliterating this drop coverage type of stuff, but for so long. And he's the only person, by the way, who this problem exists for. It's not a bunch of teams that are just going to kill your big man for staying in the paint and protecting it. It's one guy, one team that plays the system. Is Luca the one guy? No, I don't agree with that. I actually think Rudy, when he had to switch against Luca, was kind of fine. And it wasn't the end of the world.

And I think there's ways to game plan around a guy who shoots 32% from three in a way that you don't. don't have to game plan when it's when it's Steph, right? Like, I think it's, there are different problems being presented. Even if you want to say the clippers who, you know, they embarrassed Utah, even when Kauai went down, I don't think they beat up, the Minnesota Timberwolves guarding them now becomes some impossibility. I just, I don't agree with that. I think that's a little bit overstated because of what we watch Golden State do against

a bunch of teams, this playoffs, especially the best defense in. the league. I think that's a bit overstated. I just think if going to the... And the funny thing, Justin, when you said, like, LeBron is taking me to the finals every year, I think most of these teams are settled for second round every year.

Like, straight up, put me in the second round, put me in the mix in a six, seven game series every year. I'm pretty happy. I'm there. Something breaks my way. I can go even further. I think that's all these teams want. This is a very 30-year-old conversation

where it's not about the brass ring. It's about the journey along the way. It's about having fun. There you go. The second round is dope. Come on. It's like I'm in the last season of Mad Men right now. All right.

Why don't we flip to talk about the Nets? We've put this on the back burner for too long here. I'm going to do my best Brian Winhorst impression here and ask, why are the Nets acquiring all these veterans? So in the wake and actually during the Kevin Durant fiasco, as that news was trickling out. So they traded a first first. for Royce O'Neill, which is what prompted our friend Brian's, just brilliant monologue.

A very strange trade. Very strange trade. Very strange trade. I've watched it at least 20 times at this point, set to different music from prestige movies. So they traded a first in 2023, and as you guys know, the Nets don't have many of those. For Royce O'Neill, which on its face was really weird, even if you're planning for a Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving. I don't know, like, the team, I don't know if Royce O'Neill for a first really makes a ton of sense, but sure, okay. Then Patty Mills resigns. Mick Claxton, who I believe was restricted free agent, so he resigned.

He didn't have probably many options. Then they signed T.J. Warren to a one-year deal. Now, our guy, T.J. hasn't played for practically two seasons now and had to sign a better and minimum, which makes me believe, like, maybe he isn't as healthy as a lot of teams need him to be. But, like, these are a lot of veterans coming to the Nets. and so you had this, it wasn't a report, I guess Shams Rani was on some radio show yesterday and suggested that the Nets are operating as if they'll have KD and Kyrie next season

and I have to ask Rob, what the fuck? What is going on here? What else are they supposed to do? I don't know, not do anything. See, I look at these moves. Okay, Royce O'Neill is the aberration. Again, a very strange trade. would not trade a first round pick for Royce O'Neill

if I was where the Nets are right now. Otherwise, like, Patty Mills and Nick Claxton, those guys are going to be valued at the trade deadline if you need to trade them. Those are veterans who are going to work for a lot of teams. Sure. But moreover, this is not a Nets team

that really has any incentive to be bad in the short-term future. Like, I think there's a reason the trade returns we're talking about for Durant are young players who are already quite good plus a bunch of draft capital. I think Brooklyn in a best case scenario is in a position where they are competing for the playoffs next season and have their coffers completely refilled by the Durant rate. That's kind of where you would like to be.

I don't see the downside in signing this particular group of players and investing in some veterans. Even if you're intending to be young and kind of bad, is Patty Mills a bad guy to have in your locker room? I don't see any problems here, really, to be honest with you. to talk about Taika Watiti movies with them, you know, just have a good time. I love it. Yeah, Rob, Rob hit it on the head. They can't do anything else, right? This isn't like Utah who owns their pick this year and has a clear path of bottoming out and has all these ways of, they have a bunch of directions they could take it.

The Nets directions are pretty freaking limited at this point, considering the roster. And so, yeah, you know, I'm always somebody who wants to call people's bluff. I know the risk comes where it's like, all right, now you're in desperation mode and you have to deal these dudes. But I don't think that's the case. Making it ugly for KD and being like, are you going to come out and pull a James Hardin? Ben Simmons, God only knows what's even happening with him. Kyrie, we know. But again, Kyrie, make him do the work of coming up with a valid excuse as to why.

he ain't coming to work every day. And it's willing to be fine because of this. I think the best thing for them to do is just be like, yeah, come to camp and act like nothing ever happened. You never do that with like a friend or a family member, like have a dust up. And the next time you see him, you just guys completely ignore it. Wouldn't that be great if the Nets just did that with Kyrie and KD?

It was just like, what trade request? What, you know, embittered, weird contract dispute that played out in the media? What are you guys talking about? We're a good team. We got championship aspirations. Let's go. Roll the balls out, Steve Nash.

Let's get this thing rolling. I can't even imagine the levels of passive aggressiveness that would play out over the next few months if they went that way. That would be incredible. Right. Do these players fit with Russell Westbrook? Do you think? Can we talk about that?

They don't not fit. Yeah, can we talk about that real quick? The Russell Westbrook for Kyrie trade that seemed to be imminent. then now it has no traction. Would you guys do that? Just to get rid of Kyrie? No. Interesting.

No. Because you don't want Westbro, you don't want to give into Kyrie? I think the return of just Lakers' 2029 pick. So the one pick is because Russ's contract is so horrible and most teams basically view that shit as useless. So you attach a pick to that.

And the other pick is for Kyrie Irving. Do you think, Rob, that Kyrie Irvin for the Lakers' 29 pick is a worthy transaction? I kind of think it is. On a one-year deal for a dude that, like, clearly is Kyrie? I think that's a good haul for Kyrie Irvin at this juncture, honestly. That's a valuable-ass pick in the future, by the way. I think that, like, if it's that distant, that's what kind of gives you pause. I think my inclination would be,

I'm going to send Kyrie home, and I'm going to wait for the trade deadline. And some team is going to lose their point guard for the season and be freaking the hell out. And they're going to give me, not a full boat, but a, you know. For a rental of Kyrie? I think if they're desperate enough, they might.

See, but that's the... At least a little paddle boat. But that's the thing, no, Rob. The fact that one, nobody was willing to move money around to try to take Kyrie. Maybe, okay, maybe it wasn't for the 36 million that he could get, but like, man, move some money around, get Kyrie to 32.

Get Kyri to, like, nobody wanted to move money around for this guy. Yeah. And basically what it came down to was the mid-level exception from the freaking Lakers. I think that's a sign that I don't know that Kyrie is this guy that teams are thirsty to bring in. I don't think he is. But I think, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're, team that expected to be a contender this upcoming season and you get to

the deadline and you're kind of underperforming you know Kyle Lowry's out for the year the Mavs aren't quite as good as they thought they would be without Jalen Brunson I think teams start calling at a certain point for the exact same reason the Nets started calling after

banning him because of his vaccination status right like you get desperate at a certain point I guess the problem though is the trade deadline is the drop dead date for you to get anything from him. If you're trying to salvage the situation, why not trade him now

when you have something on the table like future Lakers picks? Yeah. I mean, you are walking very close to the edge with the trade deadline. There's no doubt about that. And then it's like the team

that's bringing him in, he literally has three months of obligation to your ass. Like, and again, you bring him in. Is it a guarantee that he's going to show up?

You know, like it complicates his market that way. because he's, you know, he's shown himself to be a very unreliable cat. So that's why I'm just like, man, I think the future Laker picks betting against AD LeBron being old as hell, well, LeBron definitely done by 2029, we think. And AD basically same, you know, maybe by then they will have gotten the next generation of NBA stars. who have forced their way over there and those picks aren't that good.

But I think that's a nice bet and a nice haul. Like, Kyrie with his talent and that contract in a vacuum, that's probably not enough. Kyrie, as he exists and as we know him to be, I think that's a nice,

nice haul, man. And I'm not just saying that because we get a first row seat here in L.A. of that soap opera. I think we have our structure here, which is I'm the assistant GM on the phone talking to other teams telling them, you know what, I think we're going to wait for the trade deadline.

And Waz is my boss behind my back, Sam. We got to get this guy out of here for this Lakers 2029. It is full gone. It is just wild to me, though, that if Kyrie does end up on the Lakers, how that they could probably be in the driver's seat for the title yet again. They'd be a contender for sure. I think they'd be really good. Yeah.

If Kyrie's engaged for real and Anthony Davis isn't doing his Anthony Davis routine of halfway caring, I think they'd be a really good team. For real. It's just so wild for me to think about that. This guy that 29 teams or 28 other teams does not want. And yet could be... Swing a championship race. Yeah.

Championship. Like, it reminds me of those things that happen. Like, you look back in the 90s. You're like, how did LaTrell Spreewell get on the Knicks? And you're like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, without the context, you're like, how did things operate like this?

but I guess something like that could happen again. Quickly, because we've heard a lot of fake KD trades. I'm curious, where do you guys want KD to end up? Like, where's the fan in you say, like, oh, man, it'd be really, really interesting, wise if Katie just, like, joined that team. Katie just, I've run out of interest for KD. I'm not going to lie.

I'm not going to lie. You're a magic fan now, yeah. These two straight, no, I'm not, I'm talking about just as a fan. Yeah. I'm no longer invested in KD's story as a Hooper. I'm going to enjoy watching him play no matter what because he's brilliant. But I'll give you an example. I want to see what Jason Tatum comes back and does after the finals that he had.

After the playoffs that he had where he at once was great and other times was a goat. And I don't mean greatest of all time, right? So I'm really invested in seeing how that dude comes back, responds, what that team is like, that's a story that I'm invested in. KD moping around Golden State, a team that he voluntarily went through, watching him mope around in 2019

on a team that he wanted to go to, on the team that is the best team of this generation, watching him mope around and do that so he could go to Brooklyn, be with his bestie, hire his own coach, get D'Hodre Jordan, do all of this stuff, and watch a mope around again, I'm not invested in his next story.

So, because I know how this story ends. Katie is going to sit around and mope again. So no, I don't really care where this dude goes because ultimately I know how this is going to end. People are going to bring him in, and he's getting older and worse. And so people are going to bring him in and he's going to be a declining superstar

and it's going to be depressing. And so, no, I don't really give a damn where KD ends up. Great player, brilliant player. I'm going to watch. I'm not invested. This isn't the decision in 2010. I'll tell you that fucking much.

That's what it's not. So you want him to go to the G League ignite, is what you're saying. Yeah. Are we sure that this won't reignite interest in KD? I think this almost resets him to where he'll be a little bit more focused on a title race.

And then he starts to, care a little bit more about his legacy and I think he becomes a little bit more tolerable as a personality in that regard. You know what? If Dallas wants to mortgage their next seven drafts for this dude, that would be interesting.

That's a good one. That's a very good one. I mean, any opportunity that puts him on a regular-ass basketball team sounds pretty good to me. My heart would be Memphis. I would love the John Morant. John Moran plus KD plus defensive mentality

plus that fan base that sounds like a good time to me but really anywhere where he's not gonna like every question asked him is like why is Kyrie being weird today what's up with James Harden like what's the whole deal with this organization like that was the daily line of questioning

and rightly so for where that team put itself in I'm ready for him just to play on a normal team with players who actually show up who want to be there is that so much to ask and for that. For that reason, I would say Toronto. Because I don't want him to go to another

super team. I kind of want him to earn it again. I want him to be on a very good team. Again, when did he earn it before? Not touching that one. Waz is making so many friends today. But yeah, I want him to be the underdog. I want him to be on a team with a bunch of scrappy guys

who play defense who are good, but not all-star level guys. And I think that would be a lot of fun. I have a question about the Toronto thing, though, because in my mind, I love it. and for a lot of the same reasons as Memphis, like incredibly creative coach, brilliant front office,

great roster. And then I think about like what they would have to trade to get him. And it takes a lot of the fun out of him being there for me, which is I want to see Kevin Durant and a lot of guys who are proportioned like Kevin Durant playing together. And I don't see a way they get out of that trade

without giving up at least OG and one of Pascal Seaccombe or Scotty Barnes, right? And so it's like, you know, it's KD, it's Fred Van Vleet. It's precious Ochoa. Cool. You know, one of those guys remains. Chris Boucher.

Chris Boucher. Yeah, our group chat favorite, Chris Boucher. But I think it'd be cool. But it's not like my top of line choice. Right. I assume it would be Scotty Barnes. Like, I get Barnes is really good. But it just seems like if it's Kevin Durant.

That's a no fucking brain into me. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like people saying no on Barnes. I get it. But it seems like, you're trying to earn some hipster points a little bit too much. I don't see him as being a Kevin Durant level player in the future.

And so if it's Barnes and it doesn't take away an OG in some of these other high level role players, then I do it. But not if it like dips too much into the guys I need to build a competitive team. All right. Let's, uh, let's end it here with this question because we're a couple of days into free agency. There really aren't many moves left on the board that aren't trades. There are a couple of restricted free agents to allow there.

DeAndre Aitin, though. there really aren't a lot of teams with cast space to sign them. Those teams are pretty bad and like Colin Sexton still out there, etc. But we get into the Rajan Rondos of the world very quickly. So my question, Rob, is have

any of the moves that have made thus far changed your outlook on the title for next season? Not really. I think a Kevin Durant move probably will. A Kyrie move, as we alluded to, might if he goes to the right team. But I think more or less the top

four-ish contenders in each conference are pretty much who I expected them to be and who they already were going into this whole thing. We've seen some moves around the periphery. We've seen the defending champions lose a couple important pieces, but I think the great teams

are still the great teams. Nobody's really like vaulted themselves into that category. I definitely want to see what Kauai's leg looks like. But for me, Golden State, Denver. I'm not going to stop saying that. And who was my third,

West team. Spurs. Clippers, Denver. Clippers Denver Golden State. Sorry. To me, those are the three teams. The Sons will see TBD. I don't think the Mavericks are

championship contender. But those three teams definitely. And then of course, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Miami. I think those are the best teams in the East Boston. Boston. The Eastern Conference champion.

I don't think anything has changed any of that stuff for sure. Yeah, it's just weird. that we go through all of these fireworks. All of this, yeah, and it doesn't change. But look, the Timberwolves are a materially better team, and they're going to have something to say. I just don't think at the tippy top,

I don't think they did the cream of the crop. But look, the Nets were the day one favorites to win the championship last season, right? Like a lot of... Didn't they start the playoffs as the favorite? I think they might have. And just the fact that the Warriors, the Celtics ended up in the finals shows just how much can change from beginning to end.

Are you guys worried at all that some of the bench players got mine from Golden State? The Mitten no longer around Otto Porter Jr.? It matters. And I think another year of teams having an understanding of exactly how you want to play and trying to come up with solves for that matters as well. Another year older of Steph Curry, Draymond Green, Clay Thompson, matters, but I think they're going to be damn good and a tough out. These dudes are so, you know, we talk about grit and all of that shit.

I don't think anybody's showing as much grit as the Warriors in years. I haven't seen that level of grit that I saw in this postseason. So, you know, they're going to have a say in this thing. Not even Zibo? Not even Mike Connolly? No, they never showed as much grit as even though they named themselves that. No grind. Yeah, yeah, definitely more grind.

We're about to talk a lot about Dante Divenzo this year, though. So buckle up and get ready for that. No, I do think it is an opportunity for the Warriors next generation to really show themselves to be the next generation. Like, I've heard so much about this next class coming. Like, I would want to see appreciable step forwards from the Kamingas, from the Moody's, and for James Wiseman to play basketball. Yeah.

So in theory, they do have a next class coming that should be better than some of the role players. Although, like, I don't know. Do they have another role player like an autopur junior like a Gary Payton who could provide like winged events? Not so sure. I'm not so sure about Moody. But yeah, no, it's just weird to think that like not much has changed. If anything like the Sixers, if James Hardin doesn't pull any sort of weird carpet pull at the last second here, seeing way more interesting than they did last year just with marginal upgrades.

You're definitely seeing Darry's touch on the roster more than ever before. And by that, I mean, he just got players that he used to have. but they just seem like they have a clear idea of what that team is and it sounds like based on Reggie Bullock just telling people

on the streets that he is eventually going to come to Philadelphia too. I don't know what the trade is but that's another player who fits this vision. So they look pretty fearsome

and I would probably have to bump them into the top tier of the teams that we typically talk about in these. Well, if we want to back up our point of reference a little bit, the other big change

is the Nuggets joining this category in a more meaningful way, right? Like getting healthy and having their guys. And I think making some smart moves around the periphery, you know, between getting KCP, signing Bruce Brown, I think is going to be awesome for them, a nice little fit to go alongside Yokic,

great off ball mover. So I think, you know, that's a team that was not in the mix last season in the same way will be this year if they're able to stay healthy. So that's a substantive change. Yeah, no, that's a good one. All right, let's wrap it there.

We'll be back next week, I believe, same time, same place. Hopefully with a Kevin Durant destination already in hand, but most likely not. But we'll see. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. We'll see you next time.