The Ringer NBA Show - Remembering Dikembe, Appreciating D-Rose, and Assessing the KAT Blockbuster | Real Ones

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Howard and Raja start the pod by discussing the passing of NBA legend Dikembe Mutombo. They discuss his impact on and off the floor, what he was like as a teammate, and the joy he brought to the sport (03:00). After, they touch on Derrick Rose’s retirement (21:43) before delving into the ramifications of the Karl-Anthony Towns trade to the Knicks, his fit with New York, and how Julius Randle and Donte DiVincenzo fit in with the Wolves (27:53). Finally, the guys answer your mailbag questions (52:14)! Email us your questions at [e-mail]. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Howard Beck and Raja Bell Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, except we did 120 songs. And now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts. 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, Jalo, Kanye, sure. And now the show is called 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon the 2000s. Wow.

That's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me. That's 60 songs that explain the 90s, in the 2000s, preferably on Spotify. It's the real ones. Howard Beck, senior writer at the Ringer. He is Raja Bell. Our pal Logan, it's out on paternity leave and holding a candlelight vigil for his Oakland days.

Sorry about the A's. As a fellow Bay Area native along with Logan, I felt that one a little bit too. I got to admit, Raja, it's like as much as I've divorced all of my emotions from sports, in the course of 20-something years in this business. Still part of you. Yeah, yeah. And I was a big Bash Brothers guy, Konseco McGuire. I love Dennis Eckersley, Dave Stewart, all those guys.

Those were my teams in the 80s. So, yeah, that fucking sucks. Yeah, pour out a little something. Let's get a little something for the A's, man. That's tough. I couldn't even imagine. I didn't have a team growing up that was like that for me. Howard, you know, because I moved a lot and I was in the Virgin Islands and so I didn't have a team,

but like I could see. That's like losing a family member, man. Like that's something that's been a part of you since you were a little boy, right? Like, it's crazy. Yeah, if anybody who's ever rooted for a team or being heavily and emotionally invested in a team, even this goes with players too, right? A guy gets traded, right? There's always that heartbreak and we can sit here and get intellectual about it and try to divorce ourselves from it. And I have professionally, but, uh, But yeah, like that's a part of my childhood, I feel like kind of being ripped away. So, yeah, that just blows. What a terrible saga.

If anybody didn't listen, Logan came out of paternity leave briefly to talk on Bill Simmons pod last week about the A's departing. And so people should go check that out. Roger, there's way, way, way, way, way, way too much happening in our world in the NBA, way too much. Even since the last time you and I spoke, the Nixon Timberwolves made a block. or trade involving Carl Anthony Towns. Derek Rose retired. Every team has now held media days and every training camp is now open. And amid all of the festivities yesterday with the season coming back, we got the sad news

that DeKembe Matumbo, your former teammate in Philadelphia, had died of brain cancer just 58 years old. Really, really sad news on an otherwise, you know, media days of festive. day for this league. And so that was a very sobering bit of news to drop right in the midst of it all. We're going to try to get to everything I just listed and mailbag questions in the final segment. But Raja, I mentioned it. You know, DeKhemi Matumbo, Hall of Famer, 18 seasons, six teams, quick rundown of some of the highlights here. Retired with the second most blocked shots in NBA history behind only Akim Elijuan, three-time blocked shots champ.

In 95-96, he averaged four and a half blocks. That was the sixth highest in history. And all of these seasons that were higher than his came before then. No one has gotten anywhere near that mark, four and a half blocks per game average since DeKembe in 95-96. Four-time defensive player of the year, eight-time all-star, six-time all-defensive, three-time all-MBA. Also, I say this with pride in my role as president of the Pro Basketball Riders Association.

He's the only two-time winner of the PBWA's J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award, which is appropriate given that DeKembe was known as much for being a humanitarian as for being a great basketball player. For more reading on all of that, I highly recommend my friend Harvey Aiton's obituary in New York Times and our friend Mark Spears' feature on Anscape about DeKembe. By the way, really smart dude as well. He was pre-met at Georgetown before going all in to become a basketball player. Double major in linguistics and diplomacy. He spoke five African languages in addition to English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese. Just an incredible human being.

I only had a handful of interactions with him over the years, so I didn't really get to know him as well as you did during your year and a half with Dakebe in Philly. What was he like as a team? teammate as a locker room guy, as a leader, and obviously a really important presence on a team that was built around Iverson as the offensive engine, but DeKembe is there as the backbone of the defense and obviously the most decorated player, I think, at the moment that he arrived. They were the most accomplished, I should say, at the moment that he arrived. Yeah. Terrible, terribly sad news yesterday. And I think you hit a couple, you had a couple things that I would say just off the bat.

our first thoughts when when de kembi comes up um the word human being like what when when i was having interactions with people like his former bodyguard tim pelarin who spent a lot of time with with de kembe and i got to know when he was with the when i was with the sixers like when i was reaching out to people yesterday and they were reaching out to me the i just kept saying human being like he was just an amazing human being right like and while like obviously we're all human beings like i would use that phrase about a ton of people. He was just a good person, a good dude. And humanitarian is the other one that leaps out at me. Just, you know, he was always, I mean, always trying to figure out what he could do to give back, especially, you know, to his homeland. To the point where I remember

at the end of seasons, you know, we'd have our lockers and you're at your exit meetings. And everyone's kind of clearing out. And, you know, you put all your stuff in the two, three big black garbage bags and you load it into your car or tell the equipment guy to get rid of it if you don't want, you know, as you get older, you get rid of it. When you're younger, you're taking it all home to like give away to friends or whatever. And DeKembe would be, you know, and I don't know what year this wasn't a league for him, but personally, this wasn't like a staff of people that he had to do this. He would be walking around the locker room, you know, asking you if, you know, you wouldn't mind donating that gear and throwing it in those bins over there because he was going to

be packaging that up and sending it home for young aspiring basketball players in Africa so that they could have short shirts, shoes, and what have you. And so that was just all, that was an all the time thing with DeKembe. You know, so those are the two things. Howard, like as a teammate, like I was blessed. I got to know DeKembe when I tried out for Atlanta and I was with them for roughly two months, my first year out of school. And, you know, I was young, just trying to make a team, trying to figure out my way around a pro training camp, trying to figure out how I should act in a locker room or in a weight room.

And, you know, DeKembe, the first time I ever met DeKinebe was at Life College in a weight room, and I was in there lifting weights. He would not have known who I was because those guys are on vacation when a young guy like me comes in to start working out. But he was the nicest guy in the world. Like, just spent the whole day talking to me, getting me up to speed on what was going to take place and how we were going to do things and what training camp was going to look like, how Lenny Wilkins, you know, expected his guards to play. Just, I mean, you don't have to do that for me. I'm not going to make the team, right? And, you know, that was him. And so when I got a chance to play with him in

Philly um he was the perfect anchor for the team that was built around Alan Iverson right and just what the the mistakes that he was able to erase around the rim and the freedom that it gave you know Alan and some of our other defenders to go out there and gamble and take risk and pressure because you knew he had you knew you had deke behind you was incredible but but that's not that's not what he was like that was great but that's not who he was the guy he was was the one that used to take me out to dinner and take uh you Alvin Jones and myself and Desmond Brown when we'd be in Atlanta and we had no effing idea what we were supposed to be doing or where we should be eating.

They were probably going to go get a slice of pizza or something. He'd take us out to like an amazing meal somewhere and sit us down and talk to us about, hey man, you guys got to tighten up. Here's how we need you to dress. And he was the guy who would bring Alvin Jones, like unsolicited like four suits on a road trip and just drop them off because Alvin was his rook. And it's more than just teaching you how to block a shot or, how to set a good screen and roll.

Like, these are life lessons. You're trying to, in your own way, help raise a young man who aspires to have a career like you had. And I think he was just a great champion of that, man. Like, he was just a great dude to be around, bring you into the fold, treat you like you were part of his, you know, family or extended family in a way that just made you feel comfortable and welcome. So, you know, I didn't get to spend as much time with DEC as other people, you know, but,

But it was tragic to hear that news yesterday, and he was just an amazing person. But now don't get this twisted. And I don't mean to just ramble. He was also the dude that, like, I told you how he was great with me in Atlanta. And he was great with me in Philly. But we're at St. Joe's College, like having a practice because PCOM, where we used to practice in Philly was something was being held. So we're over at St. Joe's. And DeKenbe got a rebound.

And I was fucking around like on his rebound, trying to like smack at the ball and get a quick one. and he shot me a quick bow and gave me seven stitches across my eyelid. But like not and not like talking shit and being rude about it, but he looked at me like, yo, you know better than that. And at that time, I was like, I fucked up. I do know better than that. Like so, you know, just he wore all of those hats and had a great balance about being a tough, big when you had to be tough

and big in this league, but also having a soft heart and compassionate and caring and just an awesome human being too. I love that he can bow you in the eye and you can be like, oh, my bad. Yeah, no. You know what? It's with Howard. And if you know me, right?

Like, you know, I mean, anyone who's ever seen me get bowed or something like that, my reaction usually is not to understand why I was bowed. Maybe in retrospect at times I could do that. But in the immediate, we locked eyes. And he looked at me like, bro, you know you're not supposed to be in here

reaching at this ball. And I said, I don't know. I don't think I nodded, but I was like, in my head, I nodded. Like, yep, you're right. You're right. Yeah. There was, there was, you were not exactly going to try to go toe to toe to or I guess elbow to forehead with the, to get me.

No, no, it was not going to work out well for me. What was the dynamic like with him and Iverson? Because like, like, Dekembe is a veteran at that point. And he's, you know, he's already like, you know, I think all, I think three, he had three of his four defensive player of the year awards by then. He's accomplished. He's, you know, he's an elder statesman already of sorts, or at least mid-career statesman. And Iverson, you know, is still trying to break through.

And obviously, you know, like Iverson, incredibly talented Hall of Famer himself, but certainly a bit of a, you know, impulsive offensive player and somebody you kind of got to get acclimated to and still had lessons to learn. And he and Larry Brown clashed plenty. I'm sure that DeKembe was a pretty powerful voice in that locker room. any recollection of whether DeKembe was, you know, or how he tried to help bring Iverson along? I don't, Howard. Like, I don't know that I was privy to, you know,

if DeKembe was, you know, again, I think this speaks to, like, leadership style and who you are as a person. Like, DeKembe wasn't really blasting anyone or having those type of conversations for public consumption. Like, and I'm sure he did, because DeKembe was one of those guys, first of all, just like a booming deep, like voice, right?

So like when he spoke, you know, the, the, the, you, you kind of tuned in, not just because of the like the sound of it, but like, you knew something was up. But I, I, I, so I can't really speak to any specific interaction with them in regards to that, but Dekembe was a steady, a steady force. Like, you know, I say this affectionately. Like, Alan was more erratic. Chuck was more erratic.

And I don't mean that in a negative way, but like it was the style he played, right? Like it was it was flashy. It was it was after you like we could go through strings of like misses and then reel off like 35 in a row. Like it was up and down all over the place chaotic. And DeKembe was just solid. Like a solid dude in practice every day there knowing what you're going to get out of it.

A solid dude on the bus and on the plane there. Same spot. Dressed to the nines. knowing what you're going to get out of that. Solid, you know, just solid across the board. So as much as I could tell you, I don't know about any specific conversation, I think, you know, having that presence in a locker room with an Alan Iverson, just the presence alone, again, I use the word anchoring.

Like, yeah, that's an anchor of your locker room, right? Like, people know, like, he used to sit next to me, you know, and, like, my favorite thing was like, Dee, tell me your name again. And he would go, decimbing. The full name. That was like my favorite. Like it was my. And so I called him Jean Jacques.

Like that was that was my thing for the rest of my career. Like when I saw him like I used to call him Jean Jacques. Like that was that was like the favorite, my favorite part of his name. But like just a steady dude, man, a great pro. Obviously an incredible player, man. He got defensive player the year that year. I've never felt as bad for a player. Like I think they changed the rule.

Like what they let Shaq do. Shack's my guy too. What they let him do in those finals by way of like just trying to like put an elbow through DeKembe's throat every time he got the ball. Like do you remember that? Like that was crazy. You were allowed to like space to I think pivot with the ball or whatever. And you're, you're, I don't, I think like the elbows, you could have them up if it was like, again, natural basketball motion type stuff. I don't think they were using that language yet back then. But yeah, you're right. And in the middle of those finals, there was this, I have a friend who does a much better DeKembe than I do. I get that getting that low.

and that grumb, that growl. Yeah. But there was a quote, I believe it was something to the effect of, like, about defending Shaq, just him saying, like, he's a monster. Which is just awesome. And true. And like, man, I, Dekebe, one of the great all-time defensive players. And there's nothing he can do with Shack.

There's nothing anybody could do with Shaq back then. Like, it's just the pure power there. But watching DeKembe and good humoredly, right? Like, with us. anyway, I'm sure not so much in your film sessions or anywhere else, but like having to talk about the challenge of dealing with Shaq and all that Shaq could do. And yes, some of what Jack, Shaq could also get away with. Yeah. And he, and the thing was he never, I mean, like, I don't, I don't remember the quote, but like in our locker room, you know, that you never

got the feeling that Deke wasn't up for that challenge. It was just, you know, we all could see what was happening. DeKembe stood in there and literally, put his face on the line over and over and over again in that series to to to to battle that like and that's just who he was man de kempi was a a a warrior like those are some of the biggest hardest elbows you know like like just a huge people see him and they think he's really like obviously he's skinny like because you know but like not small yeah you know what i mean like it's a huge person and and I you saw him in the paint

if you played against him personally like the level of the level of player I was it was not even worth like what do we I'm not going in there for people who weren't by the way savvy to the reference about Dekeme's name if you look him up on basketball reference you'll see his full name which is Dekeme Mutumbo

and then a couple names that I'm not going to try to pronounce and eventually ends with Jean Jacques Walmutombo and so there's the Jean-Jacques reference that Raja was making. But there's a lot of names in between there. And a lot of consonants. My favorite thing, Howard, like, I real talk.

It was just maybe it spoke to like your like his ability and just his his overall intellect and and worldliness that he spoke all those languages. So I enjoyed hearing it roll off of his tongue. Like it was a really cool experience. Yeah. I think of Mutumbo and like my earliest memory is before I was ever covering the NBA. Like I was just a sports fan in the mid-night. watching NBA playoffs like anybody else when the Nuggets as an eighth seed became the first

ever eighth seed to upset a one in what was then a best of five series. They went it in five against Gary Payton, Sean Kemp's Seattle Supersonics. And everyone has seen that highlight, right? Game ends and DeKinebe falls to the floor with the ball in his hands, all that, just the joy on his face. And then he rolls over and it's like a little bit of joy, a little bit of tears, like just this amazing emotional moment. And, you know, Like, superstars in this league or stars in this league, players in this league express their passion for the game in different ways. We talk about joy a lot these days when we talk about Steph Curry and the Warriors. Everybody kind of channels their passion for the game differently.

But DeKembe, in addition to being like the mischievous finger wag, which like, look, it was a taunt. And back then, David Stern hated it because back then there were more fights and he didn't like anything that was a taunt and that might set guys off or feel like they were being humiliated and shown up. and now that's going to lead to other extracurricular activities. But it was fun. It was great. And eventually the compromise was DeCembe would do the finger wag to the crowd instead of at the player that he just swatted. He would do it in practice. Yeah?

Yeah, he'd do it in practice sometimes. I'm sure you got a few of those in addition to the elbow to the eye. But I loved that. Like every fan, you didn't have to be a DeCembe fan or a Nuggets fan or a Hawks fan or wherever he was playing to love that. It was awesome. It was fun. He brought fun to the game. He brought joy to the game.

I think about that. I think about, yeah, that moment laying on the court in his Nuggets jersey with that big upset. And it's funny because that was a first round series, a best of five first round series. They lose in the second round. And so, like, ultimately, the moment kind of doesn't mean as much competitively, right? The Nuggets didn't go on to win the championship. It was a first round series, but it meant so much. And the emotional potency of that image just has.

stuck with me for, you know, however long it's been. I don't want to count the years. So it's just, it's just awesome. He was, he was just a really fun figure in the NBA. Yeah, man. Like, he, he was, man. Like, just, I mean, you know, I got a lot of memories now that I, you know, I didn't really digest them yesterday.

But just being in limos, like, you know, you come down and it's time to, you know, somebody's got something to bet this spot and we're going to go out for a while. And just being in the limo with him, are really funny, dude. Like, you know, obviously, you know, there's a little bit of a language thing there, even though he was fluent as hell. But like it rolled off his tongue a little different, but like his intonation and inflection and like just hilarious. And I was a Georgetown fan growing up. So, you know, I loved anything that had to do with John Thompson and the Hoyas. And I mean, imagine that kid on your like one of your first wait room visits with the Hawks.

and DeKembe Matumbo starts chatting you up. You know what I mean? Like I was really fortunate and blessed and was living a dream. You know, it was a lot of players I could say that about, but DeKembe was certainly one of them, man, being able to be in his little orbit and,

and, you know, like for a kid like me thinking that like at 35 years old, I could be walking around and run into DeKembe Matumbo and he'd give me a hug and we'd shoot the shit for a few minutes. Like I could have never imagined that. Like just a really good dude. man, super blessed, and I was so sorry to hear for so many reasons, you know, the news yesterday. Yeah, condolences to everybody in the NBA community who knew him and loved him.

Huge, huge loss for the league, for the world, and just gone way too soon. I want to get to the Knicks-Wolves trade, but let's just, before we look forward, let's just look back briefly one more time with somebody you played against, but I don't think ever with Derek Rose. retired last week. I guess that shouldn't be that surprising the last few years. It seems like it was kind of touch and go as to what year was going to be his last. Just real briefly on Rose.

You know, he had four good to great seasons to start his career. One good and then three great, obviously, three-time All-Star in those years. Youngest MVP in history, as we know, Tours ACL in the 2012 playoffs and was just never the same. And the stats would suggest he was pretty much an average player for the the rest of his career. And that's the tragedy of his of his career from a basketball standpoint. It's just that he came in with so much potential. And it was cut short by injury so quickly.

And we'll never get, you know, we'll never really know what his impact could have been. But you guys overlapped, the tail end of your career, start of his. Any memorable moments or just first impressions that you can recall of when Rose bursts into the league? my impression was I do not want to guard him and I mean that with every like fiber of my being like he he was too violent and twitchy and electric I mean John Morant is is the comp

but I think more violent than John Moran he's somewhere between Morant's and Westbrook almost right like not as big and powerful as Westbrook but definitely more so than Moran. Yeah, because Jaws kind of smooth, like Twitch and, and, you know, bounce and stuff. But, like, D. Rose was violent. And I just knew there would be nothing that I could have done to be in front of that.

So, like, it was, you know, it was, it was, it was tragic to see him, like, blow out the wheel the way he did. Because, you know, if that, if that doesn't happen, I don't know that there are answers for that level of athleticism when you pair it with the level of skill that he was developing, right? Like, if the skill level isn't there, then we're going to figure out how to guard it.

But when you combine the two, Houston, we have a problem because there are no real answers for that. And Brandon Roy, Brandon Roy. Yeah, I've thought about him too. Somebody else who came in with so much promise and had to cut short so, so soon. So soon.

Completely different. players, like not trying to comp them as actual players, but another guy where like, I mean, I was like, fuck, I don't have an answer for this. Like, I don't, I don't know what the answer to stop in this is. And he's, and he's relatively young. And, you know, both of those. But for D. Rose, I did think it was awesome. I became a huge fan. Not that I wasn't. I mean, my boys had all his shoes growing up, like the Adidas Rose and stuff like that. They were all big fans. But, you know, not everybody gets a second chance at, at, like, the career in the way he did.

He had like a renaissance there after a while where, you know, it wasn't the same, but he was playing really, really good basketball, you know? Like, and if I would wish anything for guys that go through that, it would be that. Like, get, get, you might not ever get back to that MVP level, but get back to a point where you're like, you know, I'm doing this shit again. You know what I mean? I'm doing it in that way. And I think he did that.

I think he was able to do that. And so I was happy to see that. The discussions about Derek Rose end up in. at the, did he do enough to make the Hall of Fame? Like, you know, pretty much every MVP ever has made the Hall of Fame, but his career doesn't look like anybody else's given how quickly things fell off a cliff after the ACL. And so, um, I've seen this, uh, analyzed various fashions over the last week or so here. Um, I would have a hard time. Like I don't, you know, none of us exactly know how the Hall of Fame process works. It's very opaque. So it's hard to say

sometimes. I think like if he gets in, it's going to be almost more on like sentiment than on his resume because the resume falls short. And it's like, yeah, the injury sucks. It sucks that happens. But the history is the history. And I don't know that an MVP season and three all-star appearances and then just a merely

solid career after is enough. But I don't pretend to understand how these. selections go. So I don't know. Do you have a, uh, yeah, I'm not, I'm not great at that. Like I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm not great at it. I would just say, I think you got to be careful when you start going with sentiment. Um, you know, once that pan, once Pandora's box is open. Like, yeah. You know what I mean? So like it's the criteria has got to be met. I'm, there are people, you know, better than me at this to figure out whether he's met it or not. But like, I just, you know, generally speaking, I don't really do the sentimental thing.

Like, that's, look, we either did it or we didn't, right? And he would have had, like, it's, it's, I feel like we talk about him as, as, as the, almost the theoretical career, right? What the career could have been or should have been, if not for, but the thing happened. And so you, you can't, you can't, you can't basic Hall of Fame candidacy on the, on the theory of Derek Rose as opposed to the actuality. And the actuality was four pretty good seasons at the start, one MVP. By the way, I don't want to sound like I'm piling on or diminishing anything.

But like that MVP, that was the year that it very well could have gone to LeBron. But the backlash from the decision was still so intense that there was probably some reticence to giving it to LeBron. And it's not that Rose didn't do a lot to earn it. And that Bulls team was great. And he was the reason. So it's not to asterisk it. But there was context. there was caught.

Yeah, for sure. For short, for short, like it. God, dog, what he was doing to the heat day. That was a crazy year, though, me, he was tough. Yeah. All right, let's jump in on Nick's Wolves and the Carl Anthony Towns trade that as of this moment, 1232 Eastern Time, Tuesday, October 1st, still is not official. There are some complications cap-wise and involving a third team and who knows how much more

this could end up expanding. But I think the basics are probably pretty solid raw. It's towns of the Knicks. It's Julius Randall, Dante DiVincenzo, and a pretty heavily protected first via Detroit to Minnesota. Whatever else happens around the edges, we'll see. But your first reaction when you heard this deal, what you thought about what this does for the Knicks, what this may or may not do for the Timberwolves, what hits you first? I think initially it would have been the way I felt about the Nix in regards to the trade.

And I like, I liked it. This isn't any shade at Julius Randall, but he hasn't really been available in the way that I would need to have him available over the last couple years to really feel good about the way that looks. I know what it looks like kind of without him there and I think you know a piece like Cat who for all that he for all that he isn't if you put him in like the number a solid number two

and at times a number three role I like that a lot and it gives you some scoring punch from the front court it's going to stretch the floor in a way I liked it from the Knicks perspective Like this isn't a vacuum. Like I don't know, you know, like what pick has to go and all of that type of shit.

Like I don't, when I look at trades, I don't really do all of that. I'm just talking about basketball here. But then I looked at it from Minnesota and I so badly wanted to be like, oh, man, somebody got robbed in that or this team. And then I was like, I don't hate it for Minnesota either. Like, I do think that I like Carl Anthony Towns better in both places, if that makes sense. but I really like Dante DeVincenzo. And I like him for all the reasons that I think Minnesota would need him. He's tough as shit.

He makes big shots. He's got winning DNA. Like he's the type of player that most clubs trying to get over that hump or trying to stay on the top, given the opportunity to add them, you know, they'd add them. And if the Knicks don't have to part with him, under no circumstances really want to part with him.

So I liked it for kind of both of them. Yeah, you know, it's funny. There's the part of this, it's about towns where people just have some mixed feelings about towns in the course of his career that are understandable. I'll be curious, your impressions of him overall, just as a player, forget context for a minute. But also there's the aspect of, as you just said it, I kind of like towns better in both places. And that's, I mean, listen, the reality is what it is. He's a better player than Randall. That's why the Knicks want to make the move.

And the Timberwolves downgrade a bit at that spot. while upgrading by getting Devencenzo. That's the point of the exercise for them. Although, frankly, I like this deal a lot better for the Knicks than the Wolves, mostly because I don't, I would have liked them to have a longer run. Michael Pina and I talked about this over the weekend together on the Ringer MBA show. But just that I wanted to see Minnesota have a longer run with this group, right? The first year with Townsend Gober together, Towns gets hurt.

Second year together, they finally start to figure some things out. Anthony Edwards is emerging. Nasreid is emerging. This team is starting to show what it can possibly do. And it was a really strong playoff run by them. They're best in 20 years. And it gets cut short. And I think not because of basketball reasons. They didn't make this trade because they would rather have Randall. They made this trade for financial reasons. Like there's, that's indisputably true. This was a CBA driven, second apron driven, luxury tax driven. got to get the payroll manageable driven trade for Minnesota. And it's one that the entire league had been expecting for a while, not just to the Knicks,

which because of Towns's ties to Leon Rose, the next president, his former agent, but because everybody has expected from the moment that they got Gobert that the clock was ticking on all of these cap issues and that the obvious piece to move was going to be towns. So it's not shocking. It's just kind of surprising that it happened when it did, on, you know, a couple days before media days, probably driven in large pipe by the fact that the Knicks had this massive hole at center. But I like it a lot better for the Knicks than for Minnesota. So what is, I mean, give me your sense of Carl Anthony Towns, you know,

almost a decade into his career, number one overall pick, incredibly gifted, incredibly skilled, but didn't really get anywhere, didn't win a playoff series until Anthony Edwards arrives. and becomes this Anthony Edwards. And to his credit, accepts more of that complimentary role, which is why I think he'll work out so well with Jaylen Brunson, too. It's like he's already adapted to being a superstar who makes Max incredible money, but understands that on the court, he's more of the second option

and does not want the burden of carrying the team night and night out. When he was doing that, it wasn't going so well in Minnesota. Yeah, I mean, he's a super skilled, player for that size, that length offensively, just super skilled. But while there aren't a lot of those, that's not the entire recipe for a superstar. Along with that incredible skill and size and stuff like that,

we have to have that little bit of it inside of us that we will will us as a team to where we need to go. And that's not an easy thing. That's why there aren't many of them. Like, that's not any knock, but he falls short of that. And so I, you know, I am not one of the people

that is out here calling him, you know, whatever someone might call him who thought he could be a superstar and he didn't wind up being a superstar. Because I never really- That's what they do. They call him songs. Yeah, well, I mean, look, if you couldn't watch the man play at every level he's been at and know that he's more finesse than muscle,

then there's something wrong with you. Like, that's what he likes to do. That's the way he plays the game. And so, you know, I just wasn't one of those people that was disillusioned to think that he was going to be something that he wasn't. And he's still a super skill. You line up a bunch of seven-foot mofos and ask him to have a skill off. I mean, he's right there at the top of the list. And so, you know, that's what he is.

He just doesn't bring you consistently. Consistency is the word, right? Like, because he can do it sometimes. But consistently, the other stuff that you would need for him to be your number one. So, you know, like, and let me just say this, though, because I kind of agree with you about Minnesota. But I do think Julius Randall brings a little bit more of what Minnesota. wants to be in terms of, like, he's a dog. Yeah.

You ain't, like, missing on that. He is tough as shit. And he's physical and he's grimy. And he does have that maybe to a fault where he's like, no, I'll get it done. Yeah. You know what I mean? Ride with me. I'll get it done.

And I think that kind of fits them from a spiritual side. You know, Dante, I think it fits them now, you know, what that looks like in terms of, you know, Cat really opened up the floor for them in a way that I don't think Julius ultimately does, but like we can have those convos for sure. But I kind of like the person, if that makes sense, and the fit in Minnesota. If Anthony Edwards and Carl Towns were like Yid and Yang and kind of personality-wise or personality type as players, it's almost like, you know, Yang and Yang now with Anthony Edwards and Randall, right? They both want to punish you. They both want to get into you. They both are ferocious.

on the court in a way that I think people don't see in towns. And you don't have to have that. Like, there's a lot of different ways to win in this league and a lot of different ways to apply your talent. I think, Roger, like, it's something you just touched on briefly. The concerns I have, so there's two, the spacing which you touched on. In today's MBA does a Randall-Gobert front court where, look, Randall had one good three-point shooting season, but the majority of his career suggests that he is an average to below-average three-point shooter. So he's not a floor spacer. So now you have potentially a clogged spacing issue. And this is a team that needs room for Anthony Edwards to drive to the hoop.

So there's that. And then there's the just, I don't know, I'll call it attitude concerns. Randall sold sometimes in New York. Randall's body language was a problem at times in New York. Randall wants a lot of offense run through him. And he's joining a team where, look, before we knew what the trade would be, and it was just, you know what, they're eventually going to have to move towns. Over the last year or so, you said, well, you know what? And they can afford to because

Nas Reid has become really freaking good. Is he as good as Chronthney Towns knows? Is he as tall as towns know? But like Nas Reid can plug right in and they can just keep on going. And man, you know, that that team will be fine and whatever they get back for towns. But the guy that got back for Towns is still playing the same position and is playing the position that Nasreid mostly plays. And Nasreed's like just a Minneapolis legend already or Twin Cities legend. Like that guy's beloved. Are they, I assume they're starting with Randall and Nas off the bench. Are they finishing with Randall in the lineup and Nas on the bench? Are they going to find a way to play both in the course of a game? Are they going small ball at times with both of them out there together?

If Randall's not starting or not finishing or not playing as many minutes or not getting as many touches, I am a little concerned for that aspect of it given what his history or is the last couple years in New York were. And I'm not sure he's the best long-term fit because Nasrid is a much better three-point shooter and does give them spacing. And I'll even say this. I think when we're doing this show one year from today, Raja, I'm not only not sure Randall's there.

I think it's more likely that he's somewhere else. Either they move him by mid-season or move him after the season. He does have, he can opt out next summer so he could just leave as a free agent, but he's got like a $30 million option that he might just have to opt into. But I just think whatever it is, trade for agency something, I'm not sure and I'd lean toward not that Randall would be there a year from now because of the fit issues. Yeah, no, it's all fair. And I hear exactly where you're coming from with that.

And I think, you know, my overall thought is, is a question that I'd like to ask Julius Randall. Like, what do you want out of this now? Yeah. Like, where are you on your career? one out of this. Are you still trying to prove that you are? You know, I talk about a career arc for players all the time, like, and how having players in the same window at times, you know, can be a tough thing for an organization. And, you know, then I talk about that player who has that early part where

he's trying to establish who he is and prove everybody wrong and prove to the world that he is, this and that. And then at some point, you settle in. I've made enough money financially. Like, I either have or haven't, but I'm at peace with it either way, and now I want to win. So what does that look like? And that's the question for Julius Randall. Like, yo, what do you want out of this, my boy? Where are we at?

And so if he is where he seems to have been with the Knicks, I think you're probably right. Like that's not going to work. You touched on some things that I had thoughts about small ball at times with Nas at the 5. still stretching the floor and letting Julius cook a bit. Like they struggled to get buckets. Like, Aunt, I talked about him a lot in the playoffs. He was like feast or famine some nights.

Like, and it was really hard for him to get into the paint against some teams and create. And Kat, like, that's not, we just talked about that. Like, he's going to shoot a bunch of deep ones. Like, I think Julius gives you another tough bucket guy at times for playoff basketball. If you can figure out how to get that five away from the rim. Like, it clearly, like, it's not. It's not going to be with Rudy out there. But if you can get the five out of there,

that gives Julius some room to work in an area where he really likes to work and he's really good at working. As it would, as it would, like, as we're talking about the overall, I need the ball feel, I think the Knicks were interesting because he was there before Jalen got there. Right? And, you know, this is more psychological. Like, you look at Jalen and you don't think he's better than you.

like I would have fucking looked at Jalen and not like for a second, I don't know if he's better to me. Now he goes out there and does what he does, but when you look at him,

he doesn't project that. No, it's a real thing. So like, you're like, yo, I'm not fucking taking a backseat. I don't,

like, I don't care what he did. You're not going to have that problem in Minnesota because Anthony Edwards is like, I mean, that's a level of a player that you're not going to be able to deny. It's his.

But I do think the, the dynamic between him and Nas read specifically is where this hinges. Right. Like, and, you know, how they both accept, you know, the new look is going to be integral to the success or lack there of of that team. Like that's where it's all going to kind of hinge on their relationship, how those two figure out splitting up whatever, you know, pieces of the pie they're going to get from that four spot sometimes. five spot when we go small ball? Can we coexist? Do we have a good relationship? Is there something about this

that's funky? Even though we might be working it out on the court, it's funky in the locker room, like all of those things. And I think that's the relationship where it's going to hinge on, honestly. Yeah. There's, Chris Finch has his work cut out for him coaching this team. And he's a really good coach. But I do think that there are

some things to figure out. And maybe they will. And look, to be clear, Julius Randall, obviously, very good player. He's becoming a really good passer or a playmaker during his time in New York. So he's not just a ball stopper who's going to, you know, grind things to a halt with just these post-ups and everything. Like, he's going to do all that. And there are going to be times when he stalls out the offense and runs into trouble

because he holds it too long. But he's also a very good passer out of the post. And he's a very good, I think he reads the floor well. He clearly great rebounder can score. and maybe, look, he's about to turn 30. And it's rare that you get that deep in a career and suddenly become a three-point shooter consistently. But he could. If he can improve that aspect of the game, then the fit is a lot easier.

I'm just not sure. I think the ideal trade for Minnesota when they finally had to cash out on towns would have been to bring back a bunch of picks, the Knicks had already sent all theirs out in the Bridges trade. I think the ideal scenario would have been get picks to recoup what you sent out in the Gobert deal. So replenish your draft capital. A guy like DeVincenzo, absolutely, because he's going to be fantastic for them. That should not go overlooked, especially considering that, you know, Mike Conley is 37 or about to turn 37. Like, you need some backcourt support.

But I think an array of other players that would have filled in where your needs are as opposed to power forward where you have Nasreed who can step right into Towns's old spot. So my only, I hear that Howard, and I'm just going to push back a little bit because here's here's, here's what you're making the trade. You're making the trade to get over the hump in the playoffs, right? Yeah. Right. And draft capital is not getting you there immediately.

Yeah. It's not. And I would even say like in the playoffs, that array of other players, while their issue, I don't, I mean. Everyone didn't play great, but Ant went silent sometimes in the playoffs last year. Like he came up against defenses that kind of stymied him and he couldn't get him into stuff and he couldn't, we couldn't get good quality looks all the time. So if you're telling me I've got to get rid of cat and I got to bring something back and we're that close,

I'm looking for a guy that while he might stop the ball sometimes and stuff like that, I can give him the ball and he can create a bucket, right? like so like whether it's Julius Randall or something I think that is a piece that you have to pair with aunt as he continues and maybe not for long but as he continues to round out his skill set in a way that defenses don't stymie him anymore so we can put him on the midpost and give him a touch where I don't care if they're sending a double they can't get there quick enough because you really don't have to dribble it but once like they had him up out on the floor I mean basically at half court trying to run pick and roll people were walling him up we need another player they can play behind him that and we know can do it at a high level. All right. I got two questions to wrap this one up on the Knicks side of it. They're starting lineup with Mitchell Robinson out until it looks like at least January after ankle surgery.

It's probably Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns at the two ends there and flanked by McKell Bridges, Josh Hart, OG, and Anobi, just like three really good to elite. defensive, you know, perimeter defenders. So you've got this really interesting inversion where I think between Robinson and Hartnstein, they had a lot of great interior presence last season. Hartnstein leaves as a free agent. Robinson's on the shelf. They get cat, cat not known as a classic rim protector type, not known as much of a defensive big, but they've got just locked down guys, I think, across and between. So the first question I have for you is like, can you forge a great perimeter D that negates the need or at least alleviates a little bit of the absence of a classic rim protector?

Can the OG heart bridges alignment do enough to keep guys out of the paint in the first place that you're not relying on a rim protector behind you? Like can they muster up a good to great defense with this group? Yeah, that's the idea, right? Like the idea is like we're solid enough out here that, you know, those shots at the rim that were high quality. So we needed a Mitchell Robinson or or Hartinstein to like come across and affect them have already been affected by our presence as perimeter guys. So they're not as high quality. You know what I mean? Like we're talking about percentage points of, of degree of difficulty.

So like if I'm lesser of a defender on the perimeter, your quality of shot is going to be. a much higher quality, so I'm going to need that big to affect it, where if I'm a better on-ball defender, the look that you're going to get ultimately in the paint is going to be a much tougher shot. I don't need the same level of support from the big as I did. But that's all in theory, Howard. I mean, you know, that's a lot of pressure on a perimeter defense. And like, and from night to night, good O beats good D in the league all the time. Like, you could do every single thing correct on some of these dudes. And like, I could break down that film with you and be like Howard, A plus, Howard, A plus on where you made him catch it, A plus on which direction

you made him go, A plus on making him use the counter, A plus on hand up, A plus on not fouling, he still cashed that shit out. So like, it's easier said than done. No, and that's the thing. Like when I was asking some people about, you know, kind of trying to explain the thought process on the next side, and one of the things that somebody told me was, listen, yes, they're losing a little bit potentially from last season to this season in terms of Interior D, but this is an offensive league is now more than ever. And if they slip to more like average defensively, but are elite offensively, like they're comfortable with that, I think. And look, proof of concept, you know, a year and a half ago, the Denver Nuggets won the championship

with the 15th ranked defense in terms of defensive efficiency. So, but they were elite offensively, right? And Yokic, not your classic rim protector, but the Nuggets did enough with KCP and Aaron Gordon and these guys that they were able to do it. And so this, this feels like a version of that, Raja, where the Knicks might sink defensively, might be only average defensively, but elite offense will do it, which brings me to the second question. Bobby Marks, our friend over at ESPN, said over the, I think it was over the weekend that he would put the Nick's starting five up there with anybody in the league, including the Celtics. Is a Brunson, I see the look on your face already, is a Brunson Bridges, Heart, Ananobe, Cat, Quintet,

does that rival what the Celtics have in Drew Holiday, Derek White, Brown Tatum, Porzingis, when helping? You want me to answer that? For the record, sure. Why not? I think I know Bobby. We probably said hello to each other. That's, that's, that's, I think it's a stretch. It's a port take.

It's a port take. Yeah, that's, I mean, we're not, I'm not there yet. Yeah, we're not going to sit here and do that. Now, you, if you're going to try to convince me, you can, you can, you can, kind of, you have some proprietary way of figuring out, like, chemistry and how, how cohesive one unit is versus another and all. If you're going to tell me we're going to get into that, but you're talking about talent and just player for player,

now we're not going to do that. Yeah, yeah. I'm not quite there yet either. That was a slight bridge too far. But I do think that is, I think the Knicks given chemistry. And yeah, you know, we don't know until we know until those guys actually get out there and we see them play. But that group could be one of the best lineups in the league for sure.

They can be tough. Who are the Sixers rolling out there right now? we're talking Tyrese Right Maxie George Embed and then probably Caleb Martin

and Kelly Ubre although their bench blows and there's some thought at least I've heard from rival teams about maybe they'll maybe they hold back

one of those guys maybe Martin comes off the bench or Uber comes off the bench but like it's a really solid starting five and it's three legit stars I think the Knicks have like two and a half stars, right?

Like, you know, Bridges would be, would be the half. But more solid at the other two positions than the section. Yeah, but I'm not, I'm with you. And I'm with, I get it, Bobby, but like, I'm not ready to say, come on, man, you're not better five. It was a little too far. Little too far. All right.

Well, hopefully by the next time we, we pod, this trade will actually become official. And we can start talking about what we actually see. And who knows, preseason games, I think are just a week away, too. We'll get to hopefully see these guys actually show us what it looks like soon. All right, before we go today, Mailbag. Kirm is out. We got our guy, Eddie. Eddie, what's in the mailbag today?

How's it going, guys? We got some good questions in here today. First one off from Kevin. All right. Do you guys personally think we'll see a player the size of Mugsy Boggs at 5-3 or even Spud Web at 5'6 in the NBA again? My gut feeling is that we won't partially because we haven't, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

I absolutely love those two players, but the style of play has changed a lot since they were in the league. Again, that was from Kevin. Yeah, I don't think that's happening. I wouldn't say, you know, never is a strong word, but that's going to be very, very difficult to see. And he touched on one of my points already. Like, you could live in the league back then as a setup man, as a floor general. As someone was just tasked with like making sure the ball club ran, getting you in and out of sets, protecting the ball. garden kind of 94 feet under somebody's feet.

And I guess those guys still kind of exist, but not to the degree. And they're asking guards to be way more accomplished scores now than from the point than they ever did. And then generally speaking, it's my experience going into gyms, Howard, like I go into these youth basketball gyms. And I said to people multiple times, like, is it me or are these jokers just getting bigger and bigger? like they're huge.

These dudes wings, I mean, at 6.5, I was a decent size 2. I don't know what the average for 2 guard is now, but I bet, you know, I'm not average anymore. Like everyone is getting bigger out there on the youth scene. Like 6-7, 6-8s are easy three men now. In some cases, twos, like the league's getting longer in a way that I think makes it even more difficult. Yeah, it's weird because we've had a lot.

all the talk of small ball and smaller centers and even, you know, power forwards today aren't built the way that the, you know, Carl Malones or Charles Barclays were of years past, right? Where they're not as big and physical. The game is not as physical. But the game has gotten much bigger in the back court, right? Like, you know, once upon a time there was one Magic Johnson, six, eight guy who played point. Now there are guys like that all over the league, primary ball handlers who look like Luca or, you know, when it was. Janus running point for a while for the bucks and can at times still. And, you know, Ben Simmons went healthy.

All George. All those dudes. They're massive. Yeah. And there's just, forget whether we'll see any more 53555 five, five, six point guards. There really aren't that many like 511 or 6 o's either. It's, it's, it's, yeah, it's wild. So I'm not going to say never only because even during the time when Mugsy,

or Spudweb or Earl Boykins, Nate Robinson, who I covered here in New York, even when those guys were thriving, they were still the outlier. And so if you're a really just a special athlete, an explosive athlete, gifted shooter and playmaker, I know that in today's NBA,

everybody's got a guard. And if you've got one guy who just can't guard anybody, it can just fuck your whole defense. But I think, I got to think there is still an outlier there, Raj. I think there's got to be some version of this. but I don't know, great question. Eddie, what else we got?

All right, this one's from Jake. Are the math is actually going to be better with Clay? The dude is old. Feels like putting together any lineup without any big holes on either end is going to be an impossible puzzle. How do the maps take the situation and get back to the finals of the Celtics 24 level roster or better? Howard?

Man, this is unfair because Clay is one of my favorites. So I don't do this where I don't like Cape Town. for guys. Like, I don't, I'm not a fan, but like, I got a, I do have a soft spot for Clay Thompson. So, damn, that was harsh. Listen, Clay can still shoot the ball. Clay can still make plays. Clay can still, I know he's a little steps lower than he was because of a couple of surgeries.

Clay was still really effective for the Warriors for much of last season. And I think still has some mileage left in him. And it's playing on a team where, you know, Luca and Kyrie are going to open up a ton for him. downgrading the Mavericks, I think, is just a mistake anyway, because it's not just clay. They're going to get a full season of PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford there, guys who that they had picked up midseason last year. They brought a Najee Marshall. They got Quentin Grimes, who they just stole from Detroit, I think is a really good player. I think the Mavs are going to be just fine.

I think they're going to be better than they were last season. I don't know if they're making the finals again because, you know, the West is the West. But I think the Mavs are fine. What either, Gras? Yeah, no, I agree. I would not say there's any type of downgrade there with the Mavericks. And specific to Clay, you know, Clay is a winning basketball player. When you're at a spot where the MAVs are in terms of their team trajectory,

you want guys that know how to win and are proven contributors in those environments. Clearly, they're not going to be the primaries on that team. That's Luca and Kyrie. but you want to surround them with guys who you know the moment's not going to be too big for they can go out there and provide some elite service and Clay still shoots the heck out of it. Now, the thing that Clay's going to have to continue to do

like any player does towards the end of their careers, continue to understand who you are, what your body will allow you to do and how that affects the team, either in a positive way or a negative way and work around that. But that's not unique to him. That's every player as they continue to get older

and and you know don't have the same burst that they have but there's not a world that you can convince me that clay's going to hurt them as i'm not we're not going to do that and he's not the only guy they picked up as i mentioned too so i i think they're going to be fine uh edy anything else left in our mail one more we got to travel we got travel advice question from one of the real ones all right i'm traveling over from london with my wife and two-year-old my wife surprised me with nicks versus calves and nets versus bucks tickets of course the visit to ruttker has to be done what else is a must see whilst in the city for five days? My bad, Howard, I was going to start with, like, leave the baby with grandma.

That's a good call. That's right. I would start with that one, my boy. Howard, you can talk about the city, but that would be my traveling. I got four of them, and I love them to death. But if you come into the city for a game, leave a baby with grandma. Yeah, that's a good call. I endorse.

I endorse. Unless, you know, there are other logistical reasons why they can. Fair. Wow, where to begin in my fair city? It's tough. Like, I don't do the tourist stuff much anymore unless folks come to town. Like, there's all the obvious things, right? You know, like, Statue Liberty's worth it, right?

Like, the cliched stuff is worth it. I don't recommend spending much time in time square. It's crowded and obnoxious and annoying. But, yeah, like, you know, going to the top of the Rock, 30 Rock. I have not been to the top of the current World Trade Center. I went up the towers way back when when I was 15, the previous ones. I have not been up One World Trade Center, but I hear that view is obviously spectacular. Go check out the High Line.

That's the formerly elevated roadway on the west side of Manhattan. So it's got views of the Hudson River. You can see all the way to New Jersey on a clear day. But it's a, no, it's just a nice walk. It's cool. They've just done a lot of stuff on that elevated roadway. So it's a nice walk if the weather is good. Go check out Chelsea Market down below, lots of food and shops and stuff.

Man, I had the best slice. We were there a couple weeks ago, man. I had starving, maybe a little tips. I had the best slice of pizza of my life in that bad boy, Chelsea Market the other day. I endorse Chelsea Market. No shortage of like you want to get like just New Yorkers in just a froth. like bring up at any social occasion best pizza because the war about who gets to claim best pizza, even within a single borough.

Like I'm in Brooklyn and Giulianas, which is by, which is over in Dumbo area out near the water, like Giulianas is fantastic. And then they've got a rivalry there with another pizza joint that they've had falling out with. But go to Juliana's. If you don't get to Juliana's, you want to come a little further. South come into the neighborhoods, go to Lucali, which is in my neighborhood. They're spectacular, but be prepared to wait a long time. Actually, Julianas, you're going to be prepared to wait a long time also.

But, yeah, there's a few off the top. We should reload the mailbag for next time. So somebody's got to read off the mailbag email address three times in a row in an homage to Logan. Oh, I got you. What is it? Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.com. Real ones mailbag at gmail.

dot com. phenomenal. It's almost like a, it's almost a theme there. Like Raj's like almost singing it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's my own little, you know, like I cover, but like I put my own little thing on it. That's good. I like it.

All right. Folks, send us your emails. Stay tuned in. We are not back on the twice a week schedule yet, but we should be here around this time next week. We are now coming to you on Tuesdays instead of Mondays. And we will eventually be on coming to you on Tuesdays and Fridays once we get back to the twice.

a week pace. But next time we talk to you, there will be a lot of other things having happened, Roger. I'm certain of this because the NBA never sleeps. We'll get back to it with the all suit. Let's be 21 years and older, 18 years and older in D.C. and President in Select States, Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas

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