The Ringer NBA Show - Remembering Kobe Bryant | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 27, 2020

Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney remember Kobe Bryant on the day after the tragic death of the legendary Laker and eight others in a helicopter crash. Host: Justin Verrier Guest: Rob Mahoney Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I am Justin Varyer. We are doing something a little bit different on today's episode because things are different in the NBA today. The news came over yesterday, Sunday, early in the morning. Kobe Bryant tragically died in a helicopter crash in Calabasas, which is outside of Los Angeles, among those who passed away in the crash where his daughter, Gianna, in total nine other people died in the crash. Details are still kind of coming together as we're talking about this on Monday morning. We'll probably learn more about that. And we'll also hear from a lot of other people in the NBA, including LeBron James, who at this point still hasn't chimed in. But we are still kind of processing the news as well. And so Rob Mahoney,

Staff Rider the Ringer is with me. So Rob, I think the best place to kind of start here as we talk about Kobe and his legacy is just the initial news. What were your initial thoughts when you heard about what happened yesterday? Well, I think initially when anyone who's familiar with Kobe, who at this point is an awful lot of people who, you know, whether you're a basketball fan or not, when you hear news like that, you kind of wait for the other shooter drop, you wait for a retraction or a reveal that

it's all been a hoax, that there's some kind of, there's some kind of mistake being made. And sadly, that wasn't the case. And, you know, the more detail that we have gotten, the more tragic it seems, both, you know, Kobe and his relationship with his daughter Gianna and really kind of, you know, flying to a tournament with her being kind of his last act as a human being, having, you know, reportedly, you know, possibly some of her teammates and their parents and another coach on the team on board. I mean, you don't want to see anyone taken so early. You know, Kobe was only 41 years old, his daughter only 13 years old.

But for someone who has meant so much to a lot of people, I think the circumstances of it are especially jarring and just the idea that, you know, for all of coaches, Bobby's fault, I think post his NBA career, he's really taken on an ambassador role for the league, for the game. The idea that you won't just see him on the sideline of some Lakers game five years from now is still kind of hard to accept. Yeah, you hear people talking about the death of JFK is kind of a you remember where you were moment. This really feels like the case for me. The only thing that I, in my lifetime, I'm 32 and Rob is of a similar age, that I could really remember having a similar reaction to or just like just a similar just like shockwave giving way to

just like trying to process is 9-11 that's the one time I feel like I remember where I was I could just I could see like everything that was happening that day and obviously a lot of things are different about this but one of them among them is is just like in that situation there was someone and some ones to like really direct your ire toward and with Kobe it's just it just feels like a loss. It just feels like you're trying to process and fill a void that was there. And I think that's,

it comes across, and it's surprising to me, I guess, because I was in particular a big Kobe fan. If anything, I kind of made my bones in the NBA as a career just at a time when Kobe was kind of in the later phases of his playing days. And he almost like became a symbol

for the way the game was going away from. But at the same time, he just feels like this larger-than-life persona. It's just someone who's been in my life for a very long time, and especially if you cover the NBA like Rob and I do. He's just, I mean, he's been one of the faces of the league for as long as I can ever remember. And so I was, you know, it was tough. I'll be honest.

You know, this is the last, I don't usually at this point feel things for stories. if you are working journalism, you just kind of become numb to these sorts of things. But like, man, it just, it just feels terrible. I'm still kind of in shock and kind of processing things. I don't know if you're in the same state. No, very much so. And I think, you know, a lot of it, as you mentioned, you know, coming up in this industry, but even beyond that, as a basketball fan, as someone who's watched the game for a long time, there just aren't that many things in your life that are around for over 20 years that you have a relationship with, whether you hate them, whether you love to watch them, whether you idolized Kobe and his work ethic and his drive.

I think there were a lot of things about him that were deeply admirable in that way. And to have that pulled away, and you still have the lessons and the memories that a person like that leaves behind. But it's hard to reconcile. And whether we realize it or not, of course, in those moments, we're dealing with our own kind of fleeting childhoods and our own mortality and the passing of time and the things that we lose along the way. We're all trying to kind of process that in this very messy emotional setting. And I think part of it, too, was seeing the reflection of Kobe in the NBA world yesterday on Sunday.

You know, seeing Austin Rivers and Tyson Chandler and Jamal Murray and Demar de Rosen. And, I mean, you could really go down the list through the entire league. You know, Kyrie Irving left the Nets game for personal reasons very understandably, given his proximity to Kobe and his relationship there. it really is a wonder that any NBA games were played. But in the fact that they were, I think there were a lot of moving tributes to him. I think there were a lot of messages sent and moments of acknowledgement throughout the league of fan bases who love to cheer against him being able to say goodbye. It was definitely a strange day, but as the teams were taking the court, it kind of reflected, I think, what probably we were all feeling at home, just people trying to process this news.

Yeah, I think as the games kind of went along there, it kind of reflected, I think, what a lot of us were feeling at home. It just felt like a lot of some of these big names and stars were used to seeing just like perform these heroic feet were just really going through the motions in the same way everyone else was. And you kind of saw that play out in real time

where even some of the tributes that were happening kind of evolved at a point where I think the Raptors and the spurs were the first ones to take 24-second shot clock violations. And by the time, a couple hours later, the clippers and I believe the magic took the floor. It turned into like a 24 second violation plus an eight second back court violation, just in honor of Kobe's numbers. And so I don't know, it just felt like the entire league at large was kind of processing this. And I think it really spoke to Kobe as this kind of looming figure in everybody's life. I mean, one thing I think that the

Pelicans did going into their game against the Celtics yesterday was I think they all put on Kobe's shoes, regardless of which brand they typically wear, which, like, it sounds silly, but brands are so protective over what guys wear that that is, like, kind of a huge deal. And then they changed their shoes before they actually went into the game. But I think it spoke to the fact that a lot of these guys still wear Kobe's shoes, just like how omnipresent he kind of is in the NBA, even though he has retired. Kobe's very much felt a part of the NBA, even though he didn't really take in retirement

the traditional path you see from a lot of stars. I mean, Dwayne Wade just is his first year away from the game away from playing, and he's in a commentating role for TNT. Kobe didn't really do that. He did some stuff for ESPN, but even though, even then, he did it in a very Kobe way. He broke down players' games, and I believe the series is called Detail.

And then he just, like, he found a way to stay in people's lives. Obviously, he had this production company and you won an Oscar. But also, just yesterday, or the day before that, he was celebrating LeBron James, passing him on the all-time scoring list. And I think that played a part in it. It just didn't feel like Kobe ever went away. And that's surprising to me because if you were to ask me during his playing days, like how Kobe in retirement would be, I would expect them to just kind of,

of fade away, if only because, like, I didn't, it's tough to really reconcile Kobe away from the court because that's such a, like, a prominent part of his personality. Well, especially when you're at that level of commitment to anything where, you know, you barely sleep, you're in the gym at 5 a.m. Like, all of his legend is built around the idea that basketball is what drives him, that competition is what drives him. And so I think there are always questions about, you know, in retirement, what would happen when you take that away. And we saw him, you know, get his hands involved in all kinds of different industries and different endeavors creatively to try to figure out what his post-basketball career was going to be.

There was never any question that if he had wanted to be an analyst, for example, he could have been brilliant at it. He was always one of the best interviews in the league. I didn't have any kind of relationship with him personally, but I interviewed him once for a piece on Pao Gasol. And it's just, it's striking the way that when an athlete really understands what other players do well and can articulate it in such a specific way. And especially when you're talking about kind of comparing intelligences, you know, in Powell and Kobe. It was him kind of breaking down the game through Powell's eyes was one of the most fascinating interviews that I've ever done.

And he could do that kind of thing about almost every team in the league and almost every player in the league when he was playing. And I'm sure when he's not just because he has that kind of encyclopedic knowledge and that kind of detailed understanding in terms of what is actually happening on a basketball court, which is part of what always made him so maddening as a player, especially later in his career when you want him to pass when he's quadruple teamed, when you want him to make the quote-unquote right play. But so much of who Kobe was in the mythology of what his career became was about doing impossible things, was about taking and making improbable shots, was about the idea

that with enough work and with enough perseverance, you could put yourself in a position to overwhelm even terrible odds. And I think that's such an elemental human thing. That idea of striving. I mean, it's a very American thing, first of all. But it's really no surprise that so many people connected with him as he did, considering that he really lived his career in that way. Yeah, all of the stories as you listen to podcasts and just testimonials and interviews

in the wake of kind of this tragedy, they all feel like myths. The story of Kobe just comes across almost as if this larger than life, not even person. I don't know. He's a legend in the way that I don't think NBA players can be anymore. And Rob, you wrote about this for The Ringer yesterday. It just feels like from the start of his career, he fed into this idea that he was predestined to be something bigger than just a normal NBA player. He saw himself as, you know, a rival to Jordan or some sort of next. Jordan and everything from then on was built and he worked toward in order to achieve that goal

and he did it. And it just seems like everything that came across just, it was big. You know, he ended up, you know, the game winners. I'm, you know, just the, his tour is Achilles and he ended up shooting the free throws. And before he checked out of the game at one point, like his arm was like kind of falling off and yet he's shot with his left hand. Like as I say them, they almost feel unreal. And there's just something about his career and the fact that he fed into that that just feels just more than just the typical, it just feels different, I guess, right? No, it definitely does. I mean, I think there are lots of great players in the league right now that are Pantheon players. These are guys who are going to go down to some of the greatest

players of all time, who are amazing, not only for the game nor it is right now, but in the history of the sport. And most of them aren't going to even come close to Kobe in terms of the impact they have on younger people, on fans around the world, in terms of iconography. And it's for all the reasons you just laid out. It's the idea that, you know, he started out as this high school player coming in. And I think that part of it is really an important part of his story, coming in so young and people identifying with him as this kind of like brash teenager coming in, maybe not quite knowing what he's doing in certain ways, whose ambition kind of overwhelmed his good sense in some situations. He was just so full of talent, so full of, you know, ideas about what he wanted

to do with his life and his career. And that really bonded him to Lakers fans at first, to Kobe fans more broadly later than that, which is a whole separate kind of category of, you know, basketball fans' species, really in the biosphere that we have. and it really endeared him to those people in a very different way and kind of set him apart from even some of the players we consider now to be the biggest stars in this sport. There really is just a different quality to Kobe, I think. Yeah, especially here in Los Angeles where I'm recording,

I've lived here in total about eight years with a gap in between. But when I got here, I was struck by just like his level of impact because you see it in a broad sense if you were on Twitter, you know how passionate Kobe fans are. But there's something about his connection to this city. I think it's a lot of different things

and it's difficult to parse. I think part of it's just the fact that he had been here for two decades. He played with the same team. And so he had become synonymous with the Lakers franchise. It's really tough to kind of draw a line between Kobe and the Lakers.

And honestly, the Lakers kind of fed into that in Kobe's last years where they signed him to an extension where, based on his playing ability at that time, he probably wasn't worth that amount of money. He was in fact still recovering from the torn Achilles, I believe, when he signed that extension. But the Lakers kind of committed their future to Kobe's Twilight. And as a result, the team didn't win a lot. But it was, in retrospect, kind of the proper send-off for him. And I guess it's appropriate that the last

couple years of his career, the Lakers were only about Kobe Bryant. But there's also something about the way that he tapped into certain fans. The one thing that it's always caught my eyes, it seemed like, and the LA Times wrote about this today, it's something about like the Latino fan base also really felt very passionate for him. I think part of it is he kind of, you know, he recognized them in a lot of ways. He spoke Spanish in certain interviews. Obviously, he was fluent in a couple languages. I believe Italian is. well. His wife, I think, is part Mexican. He called her Mamasita, which is something that the LA Times article brought up. And so, because that's, I think he just like tapped into that in a way that I think

a lot of people here just, you know, really appreciated. And I think from that, I think it bred this fandom that's unlike anything, I think anything were accustomed to these days, it almost feels, as you kind of reference, it almost feels like zealotry. It's almost like religion with Kobe. And it reminds me, I'm not a big soccer fan, but in the way that people kind of idolize, I don't know, a Renaldino or some of these other big stars is almost like godlike figures. Kobe was that. And I just don't think you get that in today, even from guys like LeBron. LeBron is obviously the biggest star in the game and probably a global icon as well. But he almost feels more real, or at the very least, perhaps because we have so much access to

him, he feels a little bit more familiar. I think he definitely feels both of those things. And, you know, Kobe, I think, was a master of maintaining a certain level of distance. I mean, very famously, it was a player who throughout his career didn't have a lot of close friends in the league, even players that he played with on his own team, kind of kept everyone at arm's length a little bit. And that's the kind of thing that helps kind of grow your mystique, that helps grow your myth that makes you become something bigger than just a person you can reach out and touch.

And so he's, you know, this thinker, you know, of the game who would chime in with very insightful things to say, who would, you know, lash out if the situation called for it in his mind, who would call out teammates, who would take, you know, take shots at people who could be kind of brazen in that way. But who also had this whole story behind him, who also had this kind of separate category to himself. And I love that you brought up, you know, his connection to L.A. specifically in the different constituencies within that city. because, you know, he really was the perfect star for the Lakers in a lot of ways. And, you know, some of that is just the fact that he ultimately won so much and he was so committed to that idea of, you know, like, if you're not competing for championships, what are we even doing here kind of mentality, which I think that franchise kind of needs in some ways. I think they can be so glossy and so glitzy and so driven by, you know, the stardom that surrounds the sport, that having a focus like that, I think was really constructive for the Lakers. and they had a really mutualistic relationship in that way where, you know, this is the most glamorous franchise on the planet. That obviously helped Kobe and made him more famous and more appealing and more interesting to a lot of people. He also just has a smoothness to him that makes him such a celebrity. You know, there's an unmistakable charisma to someone like Kobe that you really

can't deny. And so when you bundle all of that together, the basketball and the personality, and really this idea of Kobe that's out in the world and how people play. perceive him, it really did just roll into kind of the perfect Laker, I think. Yeah, and it's interesting because toward the end of his career, it felt like he was more open than ever before. And yet that almost fed into the myth than the legend of him. It seemed like he was definitely interested in crafting that persona for himself. It felt like he wanted that for him and he definitely wanted to be remembered. I mean, his last game, I think, is the prime example of that, taking 50 shots.

and scoring 60 points, it just felt like he was always interested in that. And I think he was approachable. And I think that was what struck me the most, both because you wouldn't expect someone of his magnitude to be able to just, like, want to shoot the shit. But he would do that. And he was, like, very chummy with reporters.

I believe, like, that wasn't the case earlier in his career where perhaps, like, during the time when he was clashing with Shaq. But I don't know. He was accessible in a way. And so it's weird because we talk about LeBron. and you brought this up in your article about how perhaps social media perhaps dispels this idea of a myth-making.

But Kobe was also on social media. He took to it late. But it almost felt like the fact that we had access to him just it almost reinforced our opinion of Kobe. And I think there was, I think that was because there was something authentic about how he went about things. Yes, perhaps that he wanted to be

this Jordan-esque figure in our, our lives, but he never shied away from that. And I think that's really important when we're trying to just parse through just who he is and what he meant to us. Well, I think in terms of most public figures who resonate at that frequency, what they have in common is that they're unapologetic about what they're bad at, about their approaches they take, about these kind of like any means necessary type of life that they lead. And Kobe was absolutely that. And I think, you know, he's the kind a person who, if you were his teammate, you might come to resent those things. I'm sure a lot of people who are fans of his out in the world, if they were working with Kobe or had a coworker who was like

Kobe, would probably hate that part of it. Would hate, you know, nobody wants to be elbowed in the head like Sasha Vuechich was. Right. And so, I mean, you know, to be put in these positions where that's kind of your everyday life is dealing with this guy who is so exacting, who is so meticulous who holds himself to such an incredible standard and is just baffled by anyone who doesn't is a really hard way to live and work. But I think, you know, we can talk about that whole element of it in terms of what Kobe did as a teammate and whether that was the right approach or not. I think reasonable people can disagree about how far you should really go with that kind of mentality in those situations. But it is unquestionably part of what makes him so appealing to a lot of people,

just this idea that he cares about these things more than anybody does. Yeah, it definitely seemed like toward the end of his career, and it kind of coincided with the analytics movement. It felt like there was a segment of basketball fandom that kind of turned on him, or at the very least, he became a symbol for a lot of the things that we didn't want to see in the game. And so, you know, LeBron and very much was just kind of the symbol of efficiency and what we expect from a modern star. and Kobe kind of represented this past, the way the game that it used to be played, or at the very least more of Hero Ball, I guess, is probably the best way for it. And while Kobe had plenty of heroic moments in his career and we kind of all love him for it, or at the very least we're drawn to him for it, you know, once we got the data together,

Henry Abbott specifically in a piece entitled The Truth About Kobe in Crunch Time, we found that that wasn't probably the best approach. And so ultimately he became once again a symbol for a much bigger discussion. He became on one side everything people want in their star athletes, but to another segment of NBA fandom, kind of the example of what you don't want. And so it was always tough because I think more nuanced discussions would be able to kind of strike a balance.

but, you know, discussion doesn't ultimately kind of end that way for a lot of times, and especially because this coincided with the rise of Twitter. And so, like, people took sides. And even within the Lakers fan base, as you alluded to, toward the end of Kobe's career, it became almost Laker fans against Kobe fans as a result of that because while Kobe was Kobe, the Lakers were not doing well and in large part because of Kobe's contract.

And so it almost feeds into the myth as well. Well, I think anytime you have those lightnings, Rod kind of players or subjects, the guys who really inspire that kind of debate, what they really kind of channel is this idea of kind of like what you believe as a fan, right? Like when Kobe takes an incredibly difficult shot in crunch time, the idea of whether that's a good shot or not is something kind of fundamental. There's like a values assessment there that goes deeper than whatever you think about Kobe, then whatever you thought about those circumstances, it really is kind of a deeper discussion that we're having, whether we realize it or not. And so when you challenge those

assumptions, when you say, oh, wait, Kobe actually shot 30-something percent in late-game situations with these criteria, what you're kind of putting in people's brains is the idea that, you know, I had this vivid response to all the shots that Kobe hit. And was everything a lie? Was everything wrong? Were all of my assumptions kind of incorrect in thinking that that was the right way to go about it. And if so, like, what does that mean that, you know, this was a person that was idolized, that was lionized for his ability to hit those shots? And some people just will shut down at that notion and don't want to have that conversation. And, you know, they saw what they saw. And those shots were huge and crucial in those moments. And the Lakers never would have won without them.

And therefore, they're not even going to entertain the thought. And then there's a lot of people who want to push back. And, you know, maybe even in some cases too far, ignoring the fact that, you know, in late game situations, you really don't want to be passing a lot because of the high risk of turnovers and the costs of those turnovers. There's really a nuanced discussion to be had about how much Kobe was doing when. But because of who he was, it was always really hard to have that discussion. Yeah, and we were very much, I think in the thick of things writing about the NBA at that time, how did you perceive Kobe? And like, what were you writing about Kobe at that time? I think along the same lines, you know, in terms of what you want in the leader of a team and a teammate,

I probably lean more towards what was then kind of the LeBron School of Thought versus the Kobe School of Thought. You know, the idea that LeBron would pass, you know, to open Danielle Marshall in the corner and just be roasted for it is an idea that I just can't quite come to terms with. And so, you know, in terms of the way Kobe went about his job, and, you know, as I mentioned before, the way he was a teammate, you know, kind of taking some of the worst lessons from Jordan in terms of the ruthlessness, even towards the people around him, wasn't something that, you know, resonated or clicked with me. But again, we all have our personality types and our leadership style. Some people are going to connect with certain things Kobe did more than I did. But at that time, he certainly looked like a guy who had lost his way a little bit in terms of what he was going to be as a leader of. of a team, what he could be in terms of a centerpiece. And then as you mentioned, then there's the contract piece of it where even before his injury, it's like how much do you want to be investing in Kobe as he goes into the later stages of his career when he's not really, you know, playing, I wouldn't say he's playing team defense.

He's kind of chasing after some things, you know, trying to win his one-on-one battles. It's always complicated to go through Kobe's basketball legacy in that way because he does have all these different stages where, you know, coming up with Shaq, winning three titles, a row and in some cases, you know, being responsible both for on-court and off-court reasons for the dissolution of that Lakers team, pushing a little bit too hard for what he thought he was, he deserved and what he was owed as a basketball player and falling into this weird kind of mid-career lull of playing with kind of the Smush Parkers and the Kwamey Browns of the world, in part because of the team and the situation that he made. And so it really is hard to

explain a way or to forgive, you know, quote-unquote forgive as a fan like every that he did wrong as a person or as a player. I'm talking strictly in basketball terms, but it really does kind of set up the later stages of his career and his ability to become a slightly different person, to mature in certain ways, to, as you said, become, to connect with his audience and with basketball fans, with everyone watching the NBA in a different way. It took time. It took all those steps. You really can't get one without the other. Again, strictly in a basketball context, understanding kind of his journey through the league itself. But that was

who Kobe was and who he ultimately turned out to be. Yeah, it's hard to talk about him without talking about some of the clashes that he had because they were just definitively Kobe. The most prominent one is obviously with Shaquille O'Neal, they won three titles together, but personal differences and share of the spotlight and all that sort of thing led to Shaq being traded and Kobe almost claiming the Lakers as his own thing.

I'm sure that kind of feeds into Laker fandom just kind of adopting Kobe as kind of the religion is just he was the guy that stuck around. The Lakers ultimately became him at various times. And you saw Shaq provide. In later years, they kind of made up. But, you know, that was a clash that kind of defined the NBA for a very long time. And then later in his career, we almost as like camera phones started to pop up and we kind of had more access to Kobe, you did see the way he interaction. with teammates almost kind of trickle out perhaps like some stories that we wouldn't hear about

or they just didn't come across in print we saw video of most notably you know he was yelling at his teammates calling him like soft as sharmine and like that they couldn't really hang with him on the court in one instance and uh there were several times where it felt like he was yelling at jeremy lynn on the court uh one instance where like i think he had to take a follow for lynn or in another where uh he didn't pass him the ball but it all felt very much of Kobe, you know, and I think you almost don't want to advocate for just the behavior, but it just felt very much of Kobe, you know? No, I mean, one is really inextricable from the other. And I think there's, there's an

argument to be had in a conversation to be had about how these athletes go through the world and whether that kind of like machismo and posturing and bravado is in some ways essential to being the kind of achiever that Kobe is. If you're going to talk yourself into the idea that you can do things that nobody else can, how do you get to that point mentally without kind of crossing the Rubicon in some sense of, you know, tearing down the people around you, of thinking that you're better than them, of knowing that you should have the ball in your hands in those critical situations, you should have the team that you want around you.

It should be, you know, your franchise, your opportunity to win a championship. you know, all those things are kind of one of a piece with one another. And that's where, again, Kobe gets so complicated as a basketball figure, you know, trying to parse what is good for a team or isn't good for a team, what's good for the game or isn't good for the game. But it's what resonates with people. It's what is memorable to them. It's what's iconic to them.

Again, it's what kind of allows them to connect with an idea of being something impossible, of doing, you know, crazy things that just work. out because you worked hard enough to do them. Yeah, and let's be clear. A lot of those moments were fascinating and incredible and just like, just a total marvel to watch. I mean, the one that really sticks out for me is just when he tears his Achilles and then still manages to shoot free throws in order to complete the foul.

In some senses, it's just like, why would anybody do that? But he did it. And it's just like something that I'll never forget. And he just had so many of those moments. The 81 point game, you know, just, God, man, there's just so many buzzer beaters. There was a clip I watched yesterday of them all tied together. And every shot, it feels like, was a tough shot.

And, like, yeah, he shouldn't have probably been taking a lot of those shots. And particularly later in his career, perhaps, when, you know, some of his skills were diminishing. But just, like, everything just, like, heightened with drama. It's just, like, everything was just crafted. almost in order to provide the most like entertainment. And, you know, when things boil down to it, like, we watch basketball for entertainment. And Kobe was like one of the best spectacles and entertainers of my lifetime, just like,

not even in basketball, but in anything. I mean, we talk about like how the league is maybe struggling with viewership these days and TV ratings and so on. Kobe was appointment viewing for a lot of times. And so he had all of these different memories that he created. For you, which one kind of stands out as we're sitting here today? I mean, there are a lot. I think, you know, it's hard to get away from that 2000 Alleyoop,

from him to Shaq in the Western Conference Finals against Portland, Game 7. Especially because, you know, in thinking about that team, that's kind of the first place, at least that I go. You know, we've seen a lot of historic duos over the year. But even, you know, think about Steph Curry and Kevin Durant, for example. Like, these guys just got off winning multiple champions. What is the iconic play that connects them in your mind? You know, there are incredible shots that Steph hit or that KD hit,

but this is a play that really unites two stars who didn't always get along, who ultimately kind of pushed apart from one another, who will go down as two of the best players to ever play the game, and they shared this really high leverage, high impact moment before they had won any of their titles that kind of propelled them into their first real shot at a championship. It's really hard to get away from that. And especially, you know, talking before about all the times where Kobe made, you know, the quote-unquote wrong play or the more difficult play, sometimes just for the sake of it being difficult, this is a case where he drives into traffic, draws pretty much the entire Trailblazers team and then makes this unbelievable pass to Shaq who kind of barely gets up high enough to dunk it. But then the celebration afterwards is obviously a huge part of it, too.

I think, you know, in thinking about who those guys were then, it's really hard to get beyond that specific play for me. Yeah, and as kind of the games were unfolding yesterday, Trey Young, who wore Kobe's number eight, in honor of Kobe, he usually wears number 11, but he ended up with a 45 point triple double. And I think it's interesting. Like, I think there's some, you know, kismit to like just that happening on that night. But also, it seems like we kind of associate Kobe with incredible feats now. It just feels like Kobe-esque for something like that to happen. And I think that's like, probably the best tribute we could have for him. It's just, I don't know, just feels like everything he did was big. I think when I think back on him, that's what I'll think about.

And I think for a lot of players in the league, I think that will matter a lot. I think that's kind of how he will resonate. For you, just in terms of just like going forward, I guess, as we kind of try to make sense of things and await the Lakers to play

for the first time on Tuesday. I guess what is Kobe's legacy in the NBA? if we could try to parse it or try to whittle it down to a couple, you know, sentences? I mean, I think he was a brilliant and completely stubborn and in some cases, completely intolerable player and teammate who was able to do unbelievable things. And it starts with the shots, but it goes to, you know,

winning five titles in total, something that very few players have ever done, especially as the leader of those teams. It's the idea that he could be, you know, not just a guy who scores 81 in a game, but also, you know, 62 against the Mavs in three quarters and then just kind of hangs it up because he was almost too dominant in that game. It's the idea that if you needed him to, he could be basically your point

guard. He could be the best playmaker and best passer on the floor. Even, you know, in that one playoff series in 2006 against the Sun's going as far as to basically go on strike when, you know, the media and I think even Phil Jackson had been a little critical of his shot selection in a crucial game to kind of prove a point to just basically refuse to shoot. And he's the guy who could do all of these things who could make unbelievable plays on top of it, who could put himself in such a distinct class of player and myth and personality and celebrity that he really is unforgettable. And I think, you know, we talk a lot about which players and which teams kind of click with fans and which ones don't, which ones will drive ratings, which ones don't, which ones you'll

pay to see and which ones don't. And with Kobe, I don't think there was ever any question as to those kinds of things. He always just connected with people and with basketball fans. in an entirely different way than almost any other star, short of Michael Jordan did. And I think that's basically the ultimate success of his career, is this is a guy who dedicated himself to being like Jordan in so many ways, to mastering his footwork, to imitating his fadeaway jumper, you know, the half spins, the fakes. Like, all of it is so Jordan-esque.

And really what he managed to do was to create that kind of aura around him, that kind of mystique around him that duplicated what Jordan did in so many ways. at a time when the league really needed that. Yeah, and I think it's apropos in a lot of ways that the last kind of public comments we have from Kobe is him kind of signing off on LeBron. You know, Kobe's obviously a fierce competitor, and all of him probably didn't really like the fact

that he was passed on the all-time scoring list, but James did that on Saturday in Philadelphia, and Kobe was pretty quick to tweet out a congratulations. And that's important for a lot of reasons. I think in L.A. specifically, just because I think Angelinos have a very conflicted relationship with LeBron.

I think it's come a long ways since he first signed with the team last summer. But at first, I think there were a lot of fans that were almost rejecting of LeBron. I think because of Kobe.

I think they had a devotion to Kobe and there was a time in the league when they didn't really become rivals, but they were very, there was almost like you were in one camp or the other with LeBron and Kobe. And so it kind of feels like

Kobe gave LeBron his blessing. in a lot of ways. And so it's also in kind of the bigger sense, if we look at Jordan kind of passing the torch to Kobe, if not in terms of just actual playing ability, then definitely in terms of celebrity and just like the face of the league. It kind of feels like Kobe passed on the baton to LeBron in a lot of ways,

and then LeBron will ultimately pass it on to someone else. And so we haven't heard from LeBron, as I mentioned up top, but I'm very curious to see what he's. he says, but, you know, I think like a lot of people, I'm sure he's struggling to come up with the right words. You could probably tell on this podcast. I know I struggled to try to put this into words, but hopefully we did the memory of Kobe justice. But we're going to end it there. For Rob, I'm Justin. We'll be back with the regular schedule on the Ringar, NBA show, with mismatch and group chat for this week. But until then, we'll get you later.