The Ringer NBA Show - Ringer NBA Lore: The 1994-95 Champion Houston Rockets

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Welcome to another episode of Ringer NBA Lore, where we remember iconic teams and moments in NBA history. Today, Logan Murdock is joined by Joel Anderson and Bomani Jones, both of whom are Houston natives and followed the Rockets closely during their mid-’90s championship run. Joel and Bomani examine the multiple heartbreaks that Houston fans endured leading up to Hakeem Olajuwon and the Rockets finally breaking through and winning back-to-back championships. Host: Logan Murdock Guests: Joel Anderson and Bomani Jones Producers: Logan Murdock, Ben Cruz, and Conor Nevins Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Audio Producer: Clifford Augustin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, Real Ones? Logan Murdoch here for another edition of NBA lore. This time we are going to be chronicling the 1994-195 Rockets who won the championship as a sixth seed led by Akeem Olajuwon. This team was really, really fun, had a nice cast of characters, had Kenny Smith, had Mario Ellie, Sam Cassell, Rudy T, people you might know that are luminaries within the space. And then the season was defined by two things. One, a mid-season trade to get Clyde Drexler, Houston's own Clyde Drexler, into the fold. And then one of the greatest, if not the greatest, in my opinion, runs by an NBA Center, Hakeem O'Hlejuwon, who went through Carl Malone, went through Charles Barkley, went through David Robinson, the MVP of that season, and then went through Shaquille O'Neal to win his second championship, and then cap off a back-to-back run from the Houston Rockets. It was a great conversation.

We actually were joined by Joel Anderson and Beaumani Jones, two of my favorite, favorite, favorite people and proud Houstonians. And we got into a lot of great things, biggest what ifs from that season. How much do the bulls linger over this run, Michael Jordan in particular? And where does this rank among Houston lore in terms of sports? All that and more. Next on NBA lore, the Houston Rockets of 1995. What's popping? Real Ones.

Ruins presents NBA lore. Today we are going to be talking about the 94-95 Houston Rockets. And any time that I talk about Houston, I got to bring my partners in here, my play of Potanus. Joel Anderson and Beaumani Jones. Beaumani is from Houston. And Joel is from Houston and a Rockets fan. There is distinction there.

Joel, with that being said, are you nervous about what we're going to get into right now? How do you feel going into this? Are you excited? Are you sad? I'm going to be talking about Houston sports for a little bit. And based on all the research that I've had, there's a lot of heartbreak within that. And I can actually see why you were the biggest hater on the network. But that is something that I'm going to digress from.

Are you ready for this? Don't because Beaumonti here is start to show out, Logan. Okay, this is a ringer. This is still a wringer product. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's still a wringer product. So talk about him like Vand does. Talk about him like Vand does because that's so much nicer than him.

Yeah. Well, I'm just saying, I'm just. I don't want him to show out just because we got company. You know what I'm saying? Your company be showing out about you. Well, I know y'all are all disrespectful, man. That's the problem. That's a real problem.

But no, I'm not worried about nothing. I mean, this is, you asked me to talk about the one highlight of my entire childhood as a Houston sports fan. I have nothing else to hold on to other than this. So this is, it's almost a joy. I have a lot of fun revisiting all these months. moments and characters because that's all we got, Doug. So what else we had? Okay, okay. All right. Well, one thing I like to do in the NBA lore, let's start from the beginning. And by the beginning,

I mean how we got to this point within the 1994-95 season. And you got to kind of take it back, right? You got to take it back to the 1984 NBA draft when the Houston Rockets select Akimalajuwon first overall. And then you have a bit of heartbreak, right? You go to the 8th,000. You go to the 86 finals and lose to the Boston Celtics. Don't call that hard break. Don't call that heart break. Okay. Okay, well, just keep, I haven't even finished yet.

I am just starting this. Okay, all right. The season afterwards, Ralph Samson hurts his knee, and then he gets traded, and, you know, Lewis Lloyd and Mitchell Wiggins are suspended for two years after testing positive for cocaine. Two years. Two years. John Lucas also enters a. rehabilitation program around the same time.

Did I mention that they lose their depth? All that they have is Akeem Olajuwon, and they don't win more than 52 games for the next six seasons. And then in the middle of all that, Hakeem Olajuwon requests a trade because the team accused him of faking an injury. Then you put that into the heartbreak that Houston has throughout the 80s, where you talk about, let me just give you some little tidbits, just squiss the knife. What is this? What are you doing? What are you doing?

1980 NLCS game five. You got the five-sub-a-jamma loss in 84 and 83. Not to mention the NFL wild card collapse by the Houston Oilers. I'm springing this all up to see how did this color your childhood, Joel Anderson? How did this go? And what was this like for you as a Houston fan? And then also how does that color the rest of Houston as we get into the Rockets? success in the mid-90s. The first basketball game I have memory of is the 1983 NCAA championship game with NC State against Houston. Okay. The Fosslamma Jamma was my first team that I loved. All right. And so then they go to the finals again, lose to Georgetown. And so then we finally get the rockets. And the rockets are exciting. Like we've got the Twin Towers thing with Ralph Samson and Dream. And so when you said that 86 was sort of a letdown or whatever, a heartburn.

86 was amazing. We beat the Showtime Lakers, dog. Well, hold up. And don't forget that same year, the Astros made it to the playoffs when only two teams made the playoffs. Yeah, that was a bit, yeah, like that had, it felt like shit was on the come, right? Like, even losing to the 86 Mets, fine. If you're going to lose to a team, lose that 86 Mets, you can live with. But that was one of the few times in Bo, I mean, were you there in Houston?

No, we got there in 87. In 87, yeah. But like for anybody to mention Houston sports on national TV, and this is what I was trying to talk about. In Houston, we did have a little bit of a chip on our shoulder because we're the fourth largest city in the country, but nobody really respects us as a large city. Nobody talks about our teams on the big national show. So the idea that they got to play on these major stages against teams from New York and

Boston, even though it didn't quite work out, it was so like, okay, y'all are at least aware of us now. And to be fair, on that, too, you got to remember, man, at that time, nobody got to win anything. Like as far as cities go, when you think about this, right? How many of them championships had the Celtics won by that time? The Lakers couldn't even get a chance, couldn't even really like squeeze in and get in there. And there were fewer teams, like in baseball, fewer teams made into the playoffs. Every city full of heartbreak.

Oh, exactly. Just, I ain't liked the way you started off by talking to Joel right then. Thank you, I appreciate that. And what, yeah, and I mean, like, also like, you know, come on, dog. You know, like talk about, hey, Houston was home of one of the first regular starting black regular starting quarterbacks in the NFL. Yeah, I mean, they were sorry. They didn't know. It took a while for that.

It did take a while for that. What about this? What about this? We had the first black quarterback to win Heisman if you were to four team from Houston. You know what I'm saying? You never saw him play a game, but. Yeah, when I was, you're doing this thing where I feel like you are defending, you're defending, you're defending Joel's feelings, but you're saying exactly what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

What happened was Joel started taking it a little bit too far. I feel like suddenly I've become the host of this show. Like, I'm the one that's trying to hold this thing in the road. What? I mean, look, man, I'm just, you asked me to lay my heart out here. No, let me, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there. But I had never thought of Houston is like this cauldron of heartbreak until this motherfucker started doing that.

Like, did you ever feel that way, Joel? Because I never really felt that way. No, I did because, I mean, that's all you know. You don't know what it's like to live. in another city. I didn't know that Milwaukee hadn't won a NBA championship since the whatever of it. Oh, I get it. Y'all just self-absorbed.

That's what it was. Well, it was the 80s and 90s. How could we know about you saw what you saw on TV? And even then, you might not even get to see your home playoff your home playoff. But this is what it is for me. Because we moved to Houston when I was right before I turned seven. And so I was old enough that I had teams

already. And because of the super station, the Braves came with me. So I never really like had to quit my teams, right, in order to move. So as far as I could tell, Houston compared to Atlanta, Houston might as well have been Green Bay. Houston might as well have been Title Town USA. That's a good point. That's a good point.

Are you going to, are you going to be able to get through this in one piece? Well, you started it. Okay, we can move. All right. I'm sorry. All right. That's a hard. That's a hard life.

All right. At the center of all of this is Akumelajuan, right, who is a legend by this point in 1994-95 season. But he's tethered to Houston in a way that, you know, most athletes there aren't, right? He goes to school at the University of Houston as part of Fislamma Jama is the center of it all. But he's somebody that, you know, at least from my recollection, one of the first players that just chose Houston, right? There's a big recruiting story when he comes. to America for the first time out of Nigeria. And his first stop is to go to New York.

So he can take an official visit to St. John's. And he goes to the airport and he gets out of JFK and it's like, ooh, it is too cold here. I don't even know if I want to be here. This is not my kind of place. And then he goes to one of the baggage handlers who happens to be Nigerian. And the baggage handlers, he asks the bag of his handler, yo, man, where in America is most like Nigeria? and the bag of, or which one of these cities that I'm going to is like Nigeria. And they say, yo, the University of Houston, go to Houston.

And he goes back into the airport and he books a flight to Houston and the rest is history. I don't think he had any idea how correct he was at the time, boy. If Houston got anything, I don't know if it was all, it was like this in 82. But Houston got plenty of Nigerians, boy. I mean, by the 90s, they did. Yeah. Al Jal Jua, they was rolling deep. Yeah, man.

He had crew down there. What was it? I'll start off with Bo on this. What was his impact like from the time that he starts at the university of Houston? And then they kind of, you know, Houston lives with them, right? We talk about the trade request that he had. And then he, you know, they see the ups and downs with him. They're not getting the playoff wins. And then they win a title in 1993, 94. By 94 and 95, what is a keen within the landscape of Houston sports? Man, I think the thing that you have to remember is you talk about the trade request, right? But what happened around the trade request is fascinating to look back, especially through the lens that we look at sports now. After they traded Samson and they traded Samson, they trade him to go and say they got Sleepy Floyd in that trade. And then they wound up making another trade and they got Otis Thorpe. I think they said Rodney McCray, the Sacramento, and they got Otis Thorpe. And so Sleepy wasn't there for the championship teams, but these were not good. teams. Like, Elijah Wan had those years with Samson and then outside of that,

Elijah won't played with nobody. Like, when you try to ask yourself who was the second best player that Akim Elijah won't played with through 1994 before Clyde Drexler showed up, the answer is probably Otis Thorpe. So Elijah Wan demands this trade. I want to say it's in 92 that he demands the trade. And keep in mind, he had a blood clot situation, right? Like Elijah Wad was out there. This was so back in the day that he had to wear this sleeve on his leg, but the sleeve looked crazy because they didn't make black people sleeves. So it just looked like he had, it was like wearing white people panty holes or whatever it was.

That's what Elijah Wahn was in. But after that, they accused him of faking his hamstring injury. And I recall that Olajuwon actually came out okay with that in the court of public opinion for one reason, which is this is the city that J.R. Richard had a stroke in. So people had a little bit of a different idea. of when the guy says this thing is a problem, maybe this thing is a problem, right? So anyway, you get to 92, he asked Charlie, Charlie Thomas is the owner of the team at the time, car salesman. He asked for the trade. And I think Jerome Solomon, who wrote for the use a chronic

before a long time, gave me told me, then Charlie Thomas told him, you could cuss me out if you want to, but I got tickets to sell. They didn't trade them. Not only did they not trade them, they didn't really do anything to make the team better. Didn't do it. But what they did do going in the, I would say it was the 91-92 season, they lost the game to the Minnesota Timberwolves, and Charlie Thomas got mad at the coach Don Cheney and fired him. And keep in mind, Don Cheney played with, like, Elvin Hayes for the U of H back in the day.

Another Houston legend. Yeah, yeah. Don Cheney's a guy, I mean, he's black, but still fired his ass because he got mad over a loss, brought in Rudy Tom Jonovich, maybe best decision they ever made. And that year, after Elijah wanted asked for a trade, and they told him no, and they did nothing to make the team better. The team got better because Elijah Juan,

that's the first year he was defensive player in the year. Like, he becomes the version of Elijah Juan that you see, right? I say all that to say, it was a bit of a roller coaster ride because between 86 and 92, they don't win a playoff series. And to be honest, Elijah Juan was very good, but not close to what he, like, ultimately became. He went and put the age back on his name, Back when he was Akeem Elijah Wah to cuss of people out, he went and got back right with Big Alah.

So he got back, you know, he got his Islam on. Him and Big Alah was back on track. And now he's becoming that guy again. And you get to 93, the thing that people can't forget, that team started that season 22 and 1. Yeah, they were cold. They did not finish with the best record in the league or the best record in the West, but they started the season of 22 and 1. And now Elijah Wahn has gone from this five slamma jammer thing. you got to remember what the role U of age plays in the city is very race tied, right?

So I always wondered exactly how white people felt about it because that is a very black people. Like that's the way you think of the Miami hurricanes of the late 80s, U of H was kind of there already. You could, you could sometimes in Houston we joke that it's kind of an HBCU because it's right over there near TSU, right? In Third War. And it's kind of, it's not an HBCU. It's not a very diverse. But not a black school. Yeah, right.

Right. Who else? Grand couples. All the golfers. Yeah. All the golfers go there. Yeah. So it's not totally, but based on where it's located in the affinity we have for,

there's no, at least for black people in Houston of my age, there was no complicating, there was no complicating issues with rooting for the University of Houston. You might have at University of Texas or Texas A&M, but University of Houston was kind of ours unaware. Well, they were the integrating school of Southern College football. right, they were at a grade school in college basketball, right?

Like, Elbit Hayes and those, like they went to two final fours at the end of 1960s, right? They won the game of the century. Like, this is, I mean, Guy, Gavie Lewis is just rolling the ball out there, but he was rolling out there to brothers. And telling them to do brother things,

like, dunk all the time. Like, that was where they were. So I've always wondered, like, with white foes exactly where Elijah was stood, but then what they really got, got to rolling on that team. And Elijah was the best player in the NBA, because, you know, regardless of why, he was the best player in the NBA in the beginning of 1993. He's, this question for Joe, is Keem Elijah Wad, Everett's big a deal in Houston is Nolan Ryan.

Oh, man. I don't have a great answer for that. And that's not an insult to Nolan Ryan or an insult to Elijah. The white folks just love Nolan Ryan. Yeah, I don't think, I don't think he, I mean, I feel like, no, I think Nolan Ryan. is a different level of fame. He means from Alvin, you know what I'm saying? But he's No, Akeem, Elyjoa. But he's no Akeem Olajuwon. But I wouldn't even say, do you think Warren Moon got it over Nolan Ryan?

Oh, no. Yeah, no. Right. Yeah. It's tough. Nolan Ryan's, I mean, that's a big deal, man. Nolan Ryan's a big Houston deal. Yeah.

I mean, I don't think Warren Moon has it on Olajuwon at all. Oh, he doesn't. He doesn't. He doesn't. I mean, Olajuwon is the winner guy, man. And Elijah one put in a lot of work for us. And so, I mean, there's other reasons for this as well. personality based everything. They never tried to run Elyjuad out of town.

Right. Right. Well, I mean, that's the funny thing, but because like, nobody, like Steve Patterson, he didn't have any credibility even then. They were just, I remember at the time. And I didn't, general manager. That was general manager. His daddy was, his daddy was general manager before him, important detail. Yeah. And I didn't have like a real complicated understanding of the labor dynamics, but I'm like, if the issue is that Steve Patterson assaulted the King of Lajuon, Steve Patterson needs to apologize. He needs to apologize because we do not.

A dream was all we had and we saw he play with Buck. No offense to Buck Johnson. You know what I'm saying? But they're like Buck Johnson and all these guys that just were not, you know, Dream just never had another All-Star. And so we were tired out. Everybody could understand why Dream not only wanted to be out, but like I put my body on the line, you have to ear for you guys and you've done nothing.

And then you think I'm faking it, man, get the hell out of here. So yeah, I totally understand. They almost trade a dream for running Cycly, Grant Long and Harold Minor, dog. You know how mad I would have been? I remember when they were floating that trade in the paper. At the time, though, people thought that Harold Minter was going to be George. Yeah, I know. I know.

But still, it was preposterousous. I wouldn't want to take that chance. I wouldn't want to take that chance. I want to get to roster dynamics at a second and gets to the beginning of the season. One thing I wanted to add, because I think is pretty fascinating about this time in Houston is it's Houston's going and Texas in general is going through a transitional phase in general, right, where you have the last Democrat in office is, uh, is out by, I think, 93, right? And then you have, no four, 94. And then you have this influx of, uh, Bush era, uh, politics, right?

And the Texas Republican is on the rise. And then you have, um, specifically in Houston in Port Arthur and, uh, Texas in general, you have this rising hip-hop scene, right? You have DJ screwing Houston, you have UGK coming out of Port Arthur. And you just, you start to have both sides of Houston kind of, I wouldn't say, communicating with each other, but definitely saying what they feel is either wrong with the state or what needs to improve. What was it like? I'll start with, with Balmani.

What was it like to have those two factions kind of, you know, figuring themselves out, right? And what was it like to grow up within that part of Houston? and how did it illustrate the Houston that we saw through the Houston Rockets? I mean, I would say that the Texas Republican had been running shit for a long time. It's a long story as to how we got that Democrat, but it took in all time. You want to talk about blowing a 35 to 3 lead. Clay Williams. Clay Williams was in the 1990 gubernatorial election.

I was 10 years old and I can tell, hey, man, this isn't supposed to be happening. What is going on here? So, like, you got to understand, man. Houston white folks are a little different. And what I mean, what I say to Houston white post is a little different is that archetype that you describe

is always there. We're always aware ain't never hid. But they might kick it with you one day. They ain't going to like you necessarily, but they're not afraid of us in any sort of way. They don't want to live at you. They might have to live at you

none of those things. But it's not one of those, they're going to cross the street when they come in because they pack heat. You understand what I'm saying, right? So, like. Open Terry State. Yeah, yeah.

It never felt like. there was a change going on. Those people were just, they were established as what they are, right? The music thing, I think, is interesting because I would make the argument that I say this a lot, and not everybody gets happy with me when I say this, but

especially in the South, not every city was a hip-hop city, right? So, for example, Chicago was not really a hip-hop city at that point. A scene ultimately developed and already, D.C. Not really a hip-hop city. A scene, ultimately, developed, but it wasn't really that.

Like, it took a lot of time of a lot of places for, like, rap to catch. I make the argument that Houston, not really a hip-hop city. The scene, it's hip-hop scene outside of rap a lot. That does really get started when you're talking about, like, this mid-90 stretch. And, like, for me, like, 95 to me is when I became aware of screw. And that's when, like, hearing Pimp to PIN on the radio and the radio station doing to screw down on songs and stuff like that. Like UGK,

UG, Bud always makes the point about UGK that they could get their thing off in Houston because they weren't from the north side or the south side so they could go to both. Right? But to me, it always felt like there was like a rap-a-lot scene, like what was going on around, Rap-a-Lot record, which is nationally relevant and everything.

But the building of the city scene, to me, that starts happening in this era. Like I was at the, uh, the, the, uh, been riding dirty show. for the 30th anniversary you're riding dirty. And it was interesting, like being there

and like when it's time to play to Houston jams, almost all of those are from the 21st century. That's fine, right? All of them, because that's when, that's when the scene

really got going. Like the last 20 years of Houston hip hop has been kind of incredible. And it starts in the midnight. What was it like growing up in that environment, Joe? Yeah, no, it's interesting

because in Houston, particularly the Houston I grew up in, and I should say, like, I grew up on the south side, but grew up on the north side. And the south side is sort of like the center of black culture in the Houston area. You know, I mean, like, it encompasses third ward. Specifically to third ward. Third ward is the center, right? Trey. And everything emanates from your proximity to third ward. Absolutely, absolutely. So I had cousins that lived in third ward. And actually, to go to

go to HSD, I used that, their address to go to school from there in third ward. But also, yo, So, I mean, it's really interesting because when I go back to Houston now, it's funny to hear Bo talk about that about white people in Houston. Because when I would go back with my wife and she'd be like, you know, you don't socialize with any white people when you come to Houston. Did you know that? And I was like, kind of right. Like, we kind of lived on our own side of town.

Houston had such a, like, robust black culture from clubs to restaurants to our parties or whatever else. you really didn't have to, like, go hang out with white people. And in fact, when I- It's diverse but segregated. Diverse but segregated. And so it was when I met my friend on the north side of town that I actually knew a black dude that hung out with white people.

Like, I was like, wow, for real? That's what we're going to do tonight? Cool. Let's go to Peter's Wild Life then. That's all right. But, yeah, so it's a very segregated city. But, like, in those parts, like, those sports teams meant a lot to us. And the music, like, Bo, you talk about the ghetto boys, man.

When the ghetto boys got on in 91, bro, that was such a big moment. That was, that might have been as big as the Rockets won in the championship, dog. Just like to hear mine playing tricks on me at the top of video. So week after week, you know how big a deal that was for people to hear people say, put their Fifth War bees on them and people know what Fifth War was around the country? So let's get it to the season. This is a very, at least for the first part of the season going into the All-Star, This is a very up and down year for the Rockets.

They go 9 and 0 to start the season, lose the next nine in our sixth place by the time they get to the All-Star break. And then they engineer a trade for Clyde Drexler. And that affects the season in so many different ways, right? Where, you know, the biggest, and you guys are talking about just the rocket's presence in the city, nobody exemplifies that more than. and won Vernon Maxwell, right? And he is a key contributor through the 93-94 championship run, has the big game against Phoenix in the 94 playoffs. But by this time, he is about to be on the outs and about to quit the team.

And he is the definition of when keeping it real goes wrong. I've had him on our, we've had him on the Real Ones podcast. We know that Beaumonti has had some legendary interviews with Mr. Vernon Maxwell, and it's always a treat when you talk to him. but there is the other side of that. But can you talk about all of the characteristics of Vernon Maxwell and how they fit within Houston

during those playoff rounds? Well, I mean, you left out a very important thing that happened that season with Bill Maxwell. Oh, he went into the stands. The trade with the Trailblazers to get Clyde Drexler

was the second biggest news to come out of Portland involving the Rockets that year with number one being Vernon Maxwell. going into stands and busting a fan in the face and then coming back. Yeah, that happened. He sat back down on the bench after he hit him too. I didn't see the video for that punch until like recently actually.

It was in the last few years. I had never seen him until the last few years. Yeah, it was crazy how he just walks up, nobody stops him, hits the dude, Robert Ory and then pull him back to the bench. He goes to sit back down on the bench, dog. You have to, the best part of the clip is, that he starts going into the crowd and it becomes clear that it was Robert Orie's job to keep an eye on him. And he realized, uh-oh, he has gotten past me. He broke and he broke

contained. And yes, Verne did it and then just sat back down as if he was just going to get in the game. Yeah, man. That was going to be, that thing. Vern, Verne was interesting. Verne also, I want to say it was the year before that or maybe a year before that when, as he talked about on my show. He went and had Luby's cafeteria for lunch before going to the arena because back in the day you would go to Luby's cafeteria and eat before engaging at high level athletic competition.

And something happened and he was driving his Porsche that had a license plate that said VM 11 on it. And I forget what happened. I think they got cut off. Anyway, Vern pulled up on him and flashed to which, I mean, I don't know how much for Houston it gets than that would right there. But now, Verbs, the dude

that gave us some edge. Verbe was also Verne was out there. Verr was living the Houston life. My brother would talk about seeing Verde at the clubs and everything else roll around in Houston. Like he was, as I think about it on that team, especially before they got Mario Ellie.

He was the one guy that he was like, oh, we got a dude with some real edge on this squad. And it was a roller coaster with Vernon Maxwell. There'd be no telling what might happen. Good or bad. And that's in a basketball sense, too. Yeah.

I mean, he was the one dude that was, I mean, again, we don't have to get into this early now, but he was the one dude did was like not afraid of Michael Jordan. Like this video of him like going up talking like, hey man, don't put your hands on me. And it's like, so it was just like he brought a level of like street and toughness that I as a kid, a teenager, I enjoyed the hell out of. He was probably my second favorite rocket to root for all things be considered because he

just like, yeah, you just, they called him Mad Max, man. And everybody knew what it was. Like we didn't know exactly what Max was doing at the time his fans. But like the suggestion was that boy got out got after it off the floor. floor just as much as he did on the floor. And they got him for free because Larry Brown was like, take them. Just take them. I don't care.

And true Larry Brown frass fashion, he takes him back after that run. He signs him back to the, I think we believe it's the Sixers. So when Vernon is one thing, right? And we kind of, you know, race to the end of it. And we'll get to the end when Vernon, you know, quits the team in Salt Lake City, which is pushes the narrative a lot that Vernon Maxwell hates Salt Lake City, which he does. But let's talk about the addition of Clyde Drexler to the fold, right? Because from a Houston standpoint, it seems to be, man, we got our guy back.

This is Fy Slama Jamma. He's reunited with Hakeem. But the people in the locker room are not exactly excited to see Clyde Drexter in the locker room. They see this guy that has got the Yee-Y-Y-Y-ass haircut and he's reading the Wall Street Journal and he seems to be uppity, right? That's what, that's what, you know, Kitty Smith has said. That is what people in the locker room.

Plus, they missed Odest Thorpe. And, you know, they get off to a rocky start. What was it like, Joel, for you to see, you know, Clyde coming back? Was it weird? Because you guys, you make this big trade. And then it doesn't seem like anything is, has changed necessarily. I'll be it also, Akeem is out for an extended period of time down the stretch of that season. But what was the ups and downs like after that trade where you think, oh, this is going to, you

boost us, and then, you know, it's, it doesn't end up that way. Well, I think the thing was is that you're always wary of breaking up a championship team. We grew very, we grew very fond of Otis Thorpe because he wasn't as a flashy, productive, hugely productive player, but he was tough as shit, man. And he had to guard all those power forwards in the West, you know, Charles Barkley, Carl Malone, all those dudes. He had to stand up against those guys and he did a pretty, he held his own. Like, he was an all-star.

at one point in this like three or four year run building up to the championship. So you lose Otis Thorpe and you're like, damn, I guess we're not going to work out. But the only thing that makes it feel a little bit better if you're a fan is, oh, Clyde's coming home. We don't know nothing about them locker room dynamics. All we know is that Clyde is still a very good all-star level NBA player. If you're a Houstonian, you have like, oh, man, Dream got his boy back, right? And like, you, it's like. He went to Sterling.

Like, he's really from here. He's really from. His family owns a barbecue joint. A barbecue joint that was one of the most famous in the town, the Drexler's barbecue, right? And so for him to come back home, it was like, well, yeah, we, why does well try? Because for all the fondness we had for OT, the thought was, man, the team still didn't look good. Like, it just didn't look like it was sputtered.

It didn't look like it was going to do much. But it's not like it looked better after that. And that was kind of the scary thing. But the rockets were hurt, man. Like, as we see now with championship runs in the NBA, one title run is really hard on the body. And teams really suffer a lot of injuries. It's hard to build it back up. And so the Rockets were kind of going through that cycle unbeknownst us at the time.

And yet, like, to your point, Logan, like Drexler comes in, dream is hurt and not playing well. You know, he's in and out of the lineup a little bit. And so Drexler has to take all these shots, bro. But like, we're fine with that. That's an all-star, dog. But I don't, you know, if you're in the locker room, I can imagine this new guy comes in and it's like with dreams out, so shots up for me.

And, you know, it probably took a little bit of time for them to get together for sure. It's funny you mentioned that because I wonder how that would go over now is a much more AAU-U-conditioned basketball scene and the idea of loading up your squad. Like, it's different. Because look, in retrospect, at the time, I was kind of like, really?

Is that what you're going to do? Because it wasn't just that you moved off from over the store. you completely changed the way you play basketball. Like, this now became a small ball team. It just so happened that Robert Ory was a big guy who did small. Robert Ory was a small forward before they made that trade. And then he wound up being a face-up four power forward after, by the way, he played center in college.

But this was a shift of the paradigm of how to play basketball. Like, they didn't really play with a power forward when they did this. But they did get, like, in this day and they. this is a no-brainer trade that you make. You get a dream teamer. You get a no-brainer Hall of Famer, one of the 50 greatest players in the history of the NBA, all of that as had been named.

You needed another guy. It's amazing in retrospect that they could have done it in 94 with your second best player being owed to Thorpe. Now again, they were playing against a team whose second best player was probably Anthony Mason in order to get that championship. But still, this was a no-brainer trade to make. Right?

but they didn't really get better, right? It didn't look it. But I would never forget something. Rudy Tom Jonathan said this toward the end of the year with going to the playoffs. He was like, we're the only team in this playoff with really, that truly has room to get better. Yeah.

Because everything seemed to have gone wrong in that year. You had to deal with whatever happened with Vernon Maxwell. You know, like Joel mentioned, coming back for winning a championship, that's physically demanding having to play, especially in that day and eight, having to play all those games and everything like that. No, man, you absolutely take Clyde.

But on the other hand, Clyde was playing a much different brand of basketball than he had ever played because everybody, this was the Bel Air Academy offense by and large. At least that's how it felt. Y'all passing the ball to Will. Yeah. Will wears number 34.

Right. Yeah. Get out of his way. Get out of his way. Just be standing in the corner and make your shots. And yeah, like so for somebody else to take some of the offensive load off a dream, like as a fan we only i think that makes a lot of sense man because winning with o t just doesn't seem like that's going to be doable this year like i'll because this the year before the rockets were

clearly one of the best teams in the league but it wasn't so clear going into the playoffs that next year right i feel like a lot of other teams have gotten better in the interim and then of course you know jordan comes back midseason too right but like this is the first year the shack and penny flower for real you know and and the sons are making another run so it's like you know they need a little bit more punch because they can't just win it. I mean, even then, you just couldn't win 81 to 78 every night, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so you guys obviously alluded to it. The Rockets end the season losing three straight. They come in to be the sixth seed. And then they go to play the Utah Jazz in Salt Lake City, where after game one, all hell breaks loose. Vernon Maxwell

quits the team. I'll read this from the Houston Chronicle. The prolific goal. The Prolific Guard was upset about coming off the bench, but things really came to the head to the first game of the postseason. Defending champions, who went to the playoffs as a disappointing six-seat, trailed the jazz by two with 2.4 seconds left in game one. Maxwell had played just 16 minutes the entire game compared to Drexler's 37 and hadn't seen the court at all in the fourth quarter until Rudy T inserted Maxwell for the final seconds, drawing up a play for him to get off a potential game-winning shot. Maxwell's attempt clanked off the back iron and left the court, fuming. That night in Utah, Kenny Smith tried to play a role by calling Maxwell's room to check in on him.

Instead, Maxwell's friend answered and told him that Maxwell had left. Left where? To go eat, Smith recalled saying on the phone? He's like, no, he left the team. He's going home.

He was at the airport. What was that like after game one, Bobati, where Vernon Maxwell, who was a key contributor, very beloved in Houston, I'd imagine. Is this expected? Was this boiling to a point to where, oh, this is probably what's going to happen? Or was it like, damn, this is huge.

What the hell is going on? Well, I mean, anything was possible with Byrne. But I personally had never remembered anybody just quitting the team. Like, I've seen that happen. Not at that level. Little League, right? I'd never, like, maybe you didn't pass your classes and you had to sit out for six weeks. I ain't never heard about nobody just being like, you know what?

I'm done with this. I'm gone. But I don't remember it being that big of a deal just because the same reason he left. I'm glad. And they got collided now. Like, I can see why he quit. In fact, I don't ever remember anybody missing him. Well, Bo, that's the thing.

I was just going to say, it didn't seem outrageous at the time. I don't know. Because you're right. But, Moni, I can't remember a guy just walking away from a team and being allowed to come back. And this is in the same year that Pippen, was this the year after? after Scotty uh subs you know refuses to come back in the game because of Tony Kukov's short so it's like this happens in that same kind of window and people were just like yeah I mean that's what up but we got clod like you said like it didn't seem like it really affected the team but I'm sure that like

if we if we talked to Rudy T it's like yeah man my depth and everything else but we were just like I guess that's what's going to happen Rudy T he was like man whoo that was glad we took care of that Yeah. As it happened, and I'm reading about this, the Verne says he was just upset people didn't call him and tell him anything. He didn't know anything. It was going to happen like this. And then after he got upset and left, nobody called to follow up. That's his version of events. He says at the time. So it was just like, you know, I guess people have sort of moved on. And to Bumani's point, man, he didn't, Max doesn't seem like a dude that'd be a lot of fun to be around if he's in a bad mood. You know what I'm saying?

I don't think that's going to be no fun locker room. Like, that's a dude who is twice thrown weights and teammates in the middle of fights, at least two times that I've heard of, okay? So it's like, if he's not going to be in good mood, it might be better for the team if he just decides to move on. Yeah. This is the guy that Akeem Olajuwon slapped after a playoff game. Wasn't a playoff game, I just know he slapped.

Yeah. I believe it was after the Sonics after they played the Sonics. It was a game against the Sonics, but I don't remember any of any playoff. game. I think the getting the shit slapped out of him part regardless of the stakes and it wasn't after the game. I think it was a half top.

Yeah. He spit. Witting about him spitting or something and dreamed they want him to spit. He said that when he used to get mad he was spit, which is crazy. I mean, I heard of that. Gainesville Florida, man. Before we move on, Beau, before we move on to the series of Utah, what's your favorite

Vernon Maxwell story? I mean, he went in the crowd and pushed that dude in mouth. Like that. After I saw the clip, it was just like, oh, this is amazing. Yeah.

I had been told, though, that after that happened, he was in the locker room, and they were like, oh, you know, we got his meaty outside. He's like, man, tell the motherfuckers to come in here. And they're like, we will not. You will not be anywhere near them.

Didn't he punch a cameraman, too? Didn't he already punch a cameraman at that particular point? I remember seeing some videos. type of it. I believe that happened. I don't remember that, but it's on the board. Yeah. Okay. So, Rockins win the next game. But they, you know, they're down to one to the Caram Malone, John Stockton, Utah Jazz. And this is a team that it won 60 games. But I don't know if they had had the reputation that they were perpetual bag fumblers by this point. Were you scared,

Joe, at this point? Were you scared that they were going to, the jazz are going to win this series in that the Rockets were going to be over at this point or we're like, no, we got them in the bag. Also, keep in mind, 2-1 and the best of five. We're not in the best of seven yet. It's interesting because, no. I mean, I know that series was very close, right? But at that point in my life,

I don't think the Rockets had, I couldn't remember. I know that they lost to the Jazz in like 84, 85, or something like that, like the first year that they had Ralph Samson. But after that, the Rockets mostly handled the Jazz. And they had beaten them the year before. They had beaten them year before. Yeah. So the right, so I was never really concerned about the

jazz as a rival at that time. I was like, oh, they're going to figure out a way to beat them because they're better than the jazz. Like the jazz were just a foil for the, for the Rockets on the way to their championship dreams. They were not a team like the Spurs or how the Mavs had been with Roy Tarpley and Mark Aguire, anything like that. Like, they just seemed like a team that we were destined to defeat. I was never scared, which is weird for a Houston fan, because that's all we ever do going into playoff series. We're scared because we're like, oh, how's this going to go wrong? But for whatever reason, the Jazz never threatened us in quite that way. It's funny, because I thought because the Rockets had been so iffy all year long that I thought

the Jazz were going to beat them. And yes, the Jazz had won 60 game at that point. I think if I'm not mistake, they might have even had the second best record in the West that year, but the way the playoffs went, the division part took priority. But I, I, once that game, got going though, because I wasn't old enough to truly appreciate to some people are kind of sort of losers. Like, I just hadn't really, like, come to terms with their reality. It's unfortunate. But as that game five went, it was kind of like, oh, no, the Rockets are going to beat them.

Because there was a big late shot in that game, wasn't it? I think so. Yeah, was it, uh, Ory? I think Ory might have had a big moment again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was like, yeah, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, The Jazz had lost a first round series as a two seed against the seven already at that point. The Rockets beat them four one in the conference finals in 94.

Yeah, they were looking like the, the fact that the jazz kept it together long enough for them to make it, they would have broke that shit up in this day and age. Absolutely. Oh, that's unbelievable. They didn't get it together until Carl Malone's 12th year in the NBA. Like, you want to talk about trying to make it happen. Because the Rock is, if this was today, Carl Malone and John Stockton will be on three different teams. Wait, are you sure?

Because hold on, hold on. Because the thing about the jazz, the thing that makes it inference with the jazz is that, man, they really got to have people that want to be there too, though. Right? And they know if you have somebody great and it doesn't seem like enough, you're like, well, maybe we can work at the margins. Yeah, but keep in mind, though, by then as a franchise, even if you count New Orleans, they had Pete Marevich, they had Daryl Griffith, they had Adrian Dantley. they'd had dudes. They had dudes. And yeah, they had dudes that wanted to be there.

That's fine. But in this day and age, those guys, it wasn't just that they weren't getting there as they were coming up short. Like they were performing to a certain level and then the playoffs would come and it felt like they weren't as good, which is in part because a point guard,

that height can only be but so effective in the postseason. Like John Stockton was a much better regular season player than he was a postseason player. That was just fundamental. They probably would have broke that up. But at the same time, see John doesn't really make a good point

because they couldn't trade, they wouldn't be trading John Stockton because they tried to sell tickets. And they was only going to file one Carl Malone. Better and worse. I mean, dude played eight and two games. That has just been willingly staying in Utah since Carl Malone.

Greenfield, Louisiana, man. I mean, wherever it's from up there, I mean. Summerfield, right? Summerfield, Louisiana. Yeah, man, look, man. That probably felt, Well, it couldn't possibly feel quite the same, but he probably, he didn't need much, man.

And so, yeah, if you've got somebody that's willing to do it, you got to, if you're Utah, I still think Danny Ames probably still has to work around there. It's like, I got to make sure I get people that want to be here, you know? Yeah. So the Rockets end up, you know, sweep, getting the series out, out the way in five games. And then it sets up a great matchup against the Phoenix Suns who had lost the, who had lost, I believe, in the second round of the 94 playoffs to Houston. and it's turned Houston from Choke City to Klet City.

And then there's a rematch here. And, you know, again, the sons go up. Charles Barkley gets to talking some shit. And he says, Chuckie Brown cannot guard me. He is too small to guard me. If they don't double team, I will get 100 on Chuckie Brown. And then... I believe he said fuck Chuckie Brown right after that, too.

That's awesome. That's awesome. And then proceeds to go, I believe, one of ten the next night. And that sets up the kiss of death shot in game seven of that series. But before we get to the kiss of death shot, what was Barclay as a character at this point? And how did you guys feel about him? Let's start with Joe. How did you feel about Charles Barkley at this point?

And when he started to talk shit, was it like, oh, damn, he's going to back it up? Or we got a shot at this. How did you feel going into that series after he said what he said? I fully expected the Suns to go ahead and win that series. That was different because I felt like the year before that the Rockets got kind of lucky and they caught a wave and were just able to overwhelm the Suns and win like that. It was improbable to do what the Rockets did that scene. I was like, there's no way they're going to be able to do it again.

I just thought the Suns were better than them. Because it wasn't even that like Barkley, like Kevin Johnson used to cut our ass up, bro. Like I don't like nobody made me more mad at Kenny Smith and Sam Castell than Kevin Johnson. because I was like, bro, why can you guys not stay in front of him? Now, again, Kevin Johnson is one of the best point guards in the world, of course, right? But it was still like, we had nothing for them. And so when Chuck's talking shit to us, I'm like, yeah, I believe his reps. They're going to do what he said he's going to do.

And I will say something else. Chuck, this must have been a different time in NBA or whatever, but, like, Chuck was sort of beloved in Houston. My pops, I've only went to maybe six or seven Rockets games in my life. one of them was a game that was a promotion. It was Barclay night. Barkley, where you cut my, my pops cut his hair off, went ball, and we got to the arena,

we got to the summit and watched the game that night. So Barclay was kind of a, it was like, when Barclay came to Houston, it was kind of like people wanted to see him. And when they did that, Chuck came and hug out because Chuck is like that. Chuck came and took pictures with everybody. They ran a promotion for an opposing player in hometown,

and it worked out perfectly. Like, everybody was hype. That's how big Chuck was to us. Houston. So when he said, oh, yeah, Chuckie Brown can't guard us, I'm like, he's right. Chuckie Brown can't guard him. So we need to do something else. Yeah, it was a reasonable hypothesis. They were up three one. Now, keep in mind, the year before, you mentioned the choke city to Clutch City. The thing is important to walk people through exactly what happened there. The Rockets went down 02 in the 94 conference semifinals to Phoenix in the second game in

particular. I remember the Rockets may have blown a 20-point lead. Yeah, they did. It was something giant, right? And the headline of the soon-to-be-defunct Houston Post, he was supposed to not make it to, he was supposed to not make it to the 1995 NBA Finals. But in 1994, the headline was Choke City because they had choked that game away. And then when they won game seven, like a good Houston Fairweather fan would, it was klutsy on the headline. Well, you know, there's two

other funny parts about that, Bo. The Chronicle did Choke City headline that night too. Really? Yeah, they didn't.

So maybe it was the Chronicle and not to post. I could be wrong. No, it was both of them. They both did it that night. There's a story if it was on a cron.com

about this reliving that time, they both had the Choke City headline on the sports section that time, which is crazy. But you know what happened after that? They interviewed Max. Do you remember this, Bo?

When they interviewed Max after the game, and Max got so pissed at the fans. He was just like, see, man, we can't even sell out. We can't even sell out our games and people show up all late. And then they come boo. He's like, man, the hell with the fans. Like, he got, and you know what happened?

Fans really were kind of like, kind of got a point. Like, Vernon said some real shit. And so they showed up for the next home game. They were there early and they were loud. It was crazy. But yet at that moment when they went down too old to the sons, I mean, they felt so free that Vernon could shit on the fans. And they were like, yeah, man, like, this is, we're in pretty bad shape.

And then they won the next two. They went to Phoenix and won those next two, then wound up winning at home in game seven. So now it's turned the other way. I mean, it's happened again. Charles has some, by the way, Charles has some bad ones on the board. This one is the, this, blowing this lead for them at 3-1 with the Rockets team that seemed to be hobbled. Now, also, this is the year, this is the series. were in game two,

Darrell Garrison threw Clyde Drexler out of the game and it was such an egregious decision to throw him out of the game that Darrell Garrison did, and this back when we knew who all the refs were. Darrell Garrison did not ref another game that year because he was so out of pocket

and ejecting. Like a lot was going on in the course of this. But somebody had to guard Elijah Watt and I don't know what they was doing at first, but apparently that shit stopped working. Yeah, man. There's no way. And then you get to the kiss of death with Ellie hitting that shot.

And that's a wild play to watch too because the ball, or he has the ball on the right side of the floor about 100 feet from the basket. And it's this long skip pass all the way across that could not work if you did it in today's NBA because the old illegal defense rules made you stand much closer to your man. So I'm not sure who was supposed to be on Mario, but he's in the corner and the pass gets there. and he hits, and look, this isn't Clay Thompson, right? Like, this isn't a, the Rockets had a bunch of dudes who just made open shots, right? They just, what they did have was nobody was afraid of the shot. Not a single person on that team was afraid of the shot. Mario Ellie, who, like, played in high school with Chris Ballin, like, he's a very New York streetball sort of dude.

You didn't really want no problems with him. His nickname was Junkyard Dog. Yes, hit the shot and hit him with those. like that guy where is young joel when this is happening set the scene where are you or where are you at the tv are you screaming or real tears coming tell me about the night of kiss of death for you this is really crazy that i actually remember this sunday afternoon right it was a sunday afternoon i was at my nana's house on the east side of town so that's clinton park which is feeds into north shore high school so that's where my father lived at the time he lived with my nana so i'm

standing in my nana's living room on her little tv that she used to sit right next to her. She was sitting the corner and there was a little TV next to her and usually it was like on CBS or something. And I'm watching this shot, man. I watch, you can't barely see it. It's such a small screen and I see

Mario Ellie in the corner going up with this shot and I'm like, oh shit, what happened? Like, why is Mario Mario Ellie shooting this shot? The nerve, right? The nerve, yeah. I'm like, what? But again, like, it was just like, wow, he's the one that got the shot. But it's not

like we were afraid of him because the Rockets at that point, like, this is just a collection of dudes. So we, you got to ride and die with Mario Ellie. And when it went in, man, I mean, I just, I know I scared my Nana because I'm crazy about the Rockets and I definitely was then. And yeah, man, I just couldn't, I couldn't believe it. Like, I mean, I didn't think, even then, I don't think I thought that they were going to repeat.

But I thought, man, that's something special about this team. And so after this is all done, Rudy T. says that these boys had the heart of a champion. And it's like moments like that, did you like, oh, yeah. Like they, even if, even, even at that point in the year when they beat, when they, when they, when they beat the Suns and then the Western Conference semis, I'm still like, well, I don't know if they're going to be able to be San Antonio. I don't know if they're going to be Chicago or Orlando or whoever they meet up in the finals. But they're still really, really good, man. And this is, this is what a championship defense looks like. And so, yeah, so I was hype.

Like, I was proud of them that they were able to beat the Suns again. I mean, not that I would have been happy if they had lost, I still would have been happy, but I was just like, they've done enough to, like, they've earned, you know, my undying gratitude and fandom and whatever for the rest of my life. Like, I just, that was one of those moments, man, for real. You know, it was one thing I remember about that time in terms of, like, measuring the magnitude and sometimes you need somebody else to be the true proxy. Because, again, like, part of, it's weird when you grow up in the city when you don't root for the teams,

but I didn't even, Joel will acknowledge this. Houston some timing about these teams. Like when your team is losing, you're just not there. Yeah. Like it's not like people are mad and watching the game. Like here in New York, people will be mad, but they still watching all the games, right? Right.

No, man, you start slipping for Houston, man, they just get out of there. But then I remember in 94 watching like what the vibes were when they started winning. And this is obviously my first exposure to like a championship type of situation, right? And you just see the effect that it has, on everybody, including people. You were like, I know damn well, you weren't rooting for this.

You didn't care about this team just a couple of minutes ago, right? But the proxy that I had that was interesting was that my brother had been in grad school in Iowa and then packed up on that and came to Houston and was looking for a job. Okay? So he is 27 when this is going on. So that means I'm watching him root for the right. Rockets, even though he's a big Barclay fan, right? But I remember I was watching him root for the Rockets, and I don't think he had any investment

in the Rockets or any animus toward the Suns. It dawned on me what it was. Because when the Rockets won, it was cracking at the club day. Like something that I don't think that people, and Joel touched on this a little earlier talking about like the black ecosystem. Houston is so full of places to kick it. Right? They are not, and not only places to kick it, places to kick it where people aren't bothering you. Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying, but they're not elaborate, right?

Like, it's not about the lights, everything else. It's like, Houston is an eat and drink city. There's some of those. Baltimore is a smaller example, but like, what do you do to, when you go hang out in Baltimore for the weekend, what do you do? You go eat and you go drink, right? Houston is an eat and drink and go to the club, go to the lounge, go to happy hour, whatever it was.

And I remember if the Rockets would, my brother was getting his shit right, and he was headed out. My mama, like, when are you going to get a job? You got out here. kicking it in those streets. And I never, I'm not old enough to appreciate the idea that just because the team is winning, everything is cracking. I think one other thing that I do want to ask you guys, like when did Houston become the city?

Not only like, I know Houstonians knew this, right? But when did Houston become the city that like players, oh, this is a desk, this is actually a destination for us. This is where we actually want to go because we like the city. The secret is kind of out. Well, no, it had kind of always been that. Like, once they play here, they didn't necessarily want to go play for the Rockets. But all those cats, if they play for the Rockets, that's where they got their crib.

Most blown, that's where the crib was at. Well, even in the 90s, Shack had a house in Houston. Like, he had a house out in Sugar Land. So it's like if you, because, you know, Shaq is from San Antonio. He went to high school in San Antonio, so presumably he knew about Houston that way. But yeah, even growing up in Houston, in particular, if you played sports or whatever, you'd run often into like professional athletes and their kids that just happened to live in Houston. You know what I'm saying? Like Moses Malone Jr.

Like his, Moses Malone made his home in Houston, even though Moses Malone played all over the NBA, but Houston was a place that he decided to settle. So it was really about the late, the mid, the late 90s that I felt like, oh, okay, like this is where every, the secret is out. Like you don't have to pay income tax here. The housing is cheap. You can get a lot of land. And all you got to do as a ball play is pull up. Bro, bro. You are identifying characteristics are taking care of all the rest. Max's, Roxie, you know what I'm saying, whatever.

Strip-up City. I mean, bro, look, man. Like, that's his way, I saw Terrell Suggs talking about this with Kendrick Perkins the other day, this clip. And it was just like, he said, Suggs said he was talking with Jacoby Jones. He was like, yo, man, for the break, we're going to go to Houston. He's like, we're not going to go to Atlanta? We don't go to the beach. He's like, nah, Houston.

And this is like 2014. And Sugg says it gets down there, and he said, I ain't left since. You know what I'm saying? And what they want to say, and they're afraid to say it is that, dog, Houston got the women, dog. We got the guy. We got the governor, man. I was just, I told you I was just in Houston a couple weeks ago. And I was like, man, I almost forgot.

You think other cities are ugly when you live in Houston, but you just don't realize there's just not a lot of cities like Houston, bro. Houston got them. Like, I was glad I went from Houston to Atlanta. So it was a reasonable transition. But I can't imagine if I had gone from Houston to some of the other places. I'd have just been walking around surly. Bro, I went from Houston to Fort Worth and I was like, dog.

Oh, yeah. This is what you're doing for real? Tough right. Yeah, yeah. Every city can't rock like that. So, yeah. Houston got them. For real.

For real. It is so amazing how some cities got them and some cities don't for whatever reason, right? Yeah. Houston got them. Houston got it by me. Look, man. Destiny's Child, Doc. I mean, look, man, when Jay Z got his woman, he went, got one from the H, dog, you know?

Because Beyonce is totally different, but anyway, you know what I'm saying? So a few days after the Kiss of Death shot, David Robinson gets his MVP trophy in front of Akeem Olajuwon. But, Moni, can you proceed to tell us what Hakeem proceeded to do to David Robinson for the next few games? Well, there's an important detail here, which is that it's not simply that they gave him the trophy in front of Olajouad, is that David Robinson is one of the nicest men who has ever lived, a great guy by all accounts. He gave thanks to all the great big men that came before him and did not mention the previous year's MVP, the previous year's finals MVP, the previous

year, he was two-time defensive player of the year, Kim Olajuwon. He did not mention him. And the difference between Elijah Watt and David Robinson, is not surly. watched one's very very sir and he woe his ass out of that like he just and i i think that david robinson's reputation has been permanently injured by what happened in that series he is one of the greatest players of all time he was a dude that was sent from the future as my daddy says about her from college he almost got navy to the final four and by the way them teams he was on in san antonio felt a lot like Navy. He had been out there by himself for the longest time too.

And Elijah won destroyed him, man. Just over and over and over. I'm going to pull up the stats from all these games because it's just, it's truly impossible for me to conceptualize the idea that a truly

great NBA player could have this happen to him. Right? What do you put up? Did he put up something 40 in game one? Yeah, 41. 41 and 16, by the way. And to be fair, game two, as I recall,

the day before the game, Sports Illustrated, put out a cover story with Dennis Robman that was entitled Rare Bird, where he's on the cover and like a leather boostier. Yeah, written by Michael Silver. Yeah, written by Michael Silver, like a leather boostier with a parrot and all of this stuff. It was the article where he talked about having fantasies,

about having sex with other men, and all of this stuff. A wild night, if you read it. Just read it. If you ever get to see us to read this. He's a trip to Vegas, right? Yeah. He's like, Mike, come pull up, and then he's there, and it's basically a night with Dennis Rodman.

But the log of the short was Dennis Rodman thought it was all about Dennis Rodman in game two. The Spurs never stood a chance. Dennis Rodman only played 17 minutes in that game. Yikes. Which is interesting, though, too. If you read Dennis Rocker. Hold on. Hold on.

And he put up six shots. Dennis Rodman. Dennis Robbin. Six, that's actually a lot for him, man. That's my point. He thought it was about him. He's letting it go. Yeah.

He got hype. So I read Dennis Robbins' autobiography from that time, too, because I was in an era when I read athlete biographies. And his contention is that everybody on the Spurs had realized that he was weak. You did everything, but call him a coward. I remember that. And then Avery Johnson had called him out in the locker room and everything else. And so I don't know. Pobovus hated him.

Hmm? Popovus hated Dennis Robin. Just had an utter disgust for him. Yeah, man. I mean, he really created a mess down there, bro. And so, yeah, I mean, it felt like, and it felt it poisoned the well. So it's like, not only was, you know, David Robinson, like, dealing with the inner turmoil, he had, like, a pissed off dude.

And, like, to Bumani's point, Elijah was surly, bro, when he was Akeem, and you watch video clips from the 80s of him punching people. Like, you probably got about a good 10, you probably at least a good 10 clips of him just punching people. I was not to be fucked with. Yeah, man. I told you my favorite story on that one, right? What's that?

My brother used to run with a cat who played very high-level college basketball, and he was in Houston at the time, so he'd be at a lot of the games. He said, Elijah Juan would be on the floor, and the rest made a call Elijah Juan didn't like Elijah stop, point out of him, suck my deke. Now, older Elijah Juan will point at him and say, God will judge you for this. and they would take him put out. He's still my slap you though. He's still my slap you.

Still my slap you. Yeah. No, no. Olajuwon. Elijah just gave it to Dave. At his peak of his powers, Elijah Juan, gave it to possibly the best defensive player in the NBA.

Over and over and over again. And by the way, in fairness to David Robinson, they came back and won both of the next two games at the summit. Dave Robinson in game three, 10 for 15 from the four. floor nine for nine from the line, 29 points, nine rebounds. Like, he got back up off the mat, but the Rockies just gave it to him.

Rockers was just a better team. Yeah. Yeah. And they wind up wrapping it up in six games. Akeem Olajuwon averaged 35 points, 13 rebounds, five blocks. And this is a quote from David Robinson on Akeem. I think it was the worst moment of my professional career when after game six in Houston, going back into that locker room and hearing the announcements, tickets to the NBA finals will go on sale Friday.

And I'm like, oh, man, this is horrible. And they went on to beat Orlando in the finals is what we were going to talk about now. When they go and beat, how are you feeling now? Joel, the, the Rockets are after all this are back in the NBA finals? They are going to play a young man by the name of Shaquille O'Neill and another young man by the name of Penny Hardaway. Are you scared at this point? This is, this is coming a week. after, you know, Nick Anderson steals the ball from Jordan. Jordan, you know, gives it to him after changing his number back to 23. But it just still wasn't the same, Mike. They beat the Bulls.

They do have Horace Grant. They have Nick Anderson. They have Penny Hardaway. This is a really, really explosive team, young team, but explosive nonetheless. What were you thinking? Well, I mean, the thing is, I didn't really know what to think at that time because I'm like, one of the Rockets were defending champs. Now, they were so, I felt like that whole year they were wheezing to the finish line.

Right. And so the thing that I was scared about was like, man, they're just, the magic seems so young and dynamic and fast in a way. And I was like, some of the Rockets game was to speed the game up because they didn't have big guys anymore. But I'm like, do you really want, are you going to be able to outrun Anthony Hardaway? You know, and Young Shack. Because I mean, look, back then, people see, you know, the Lakers shack or whatever. Magic, magic Shack, dog. Hey, hey, man, that was a bad, big motherfucker, bro. Like, nobody has ever been lighter on their feet at that side. Like, he had friends- Especially at that time. Hold on, nobody's ever been that size. Yeah, nobody's at that size.

Then we get to the light on the feet part. I'm going to be honest with you. I, like, I've seen Victor Wibon Yama in person. I've seen Yomeng in person. And I've seen Shaquille O'Neill in person. Shack is the most intimidating player I've ever seen in terms of, you know, just how big he is and how tall he is, and when he shakes your hand,

it disappears, all those things. Shaquille O'Neill is probably the biggest human I've ever seen in my life, and that is including the tall guys that I've seen. Oh, look, I covered the Rockets when they had Yao, and I'll never forget one time I was covering the, I guess it was the Rockets and Lakers. They played in the first round of the playoffs in, like, 2003.

2004. 2004, that's like, Jeff Van Gundy was coached still then and everything. And so, like, I go into the locker room, and I know the check is big. I've been in rooms, which I know Shack is 7 foot 1, 7 foot 2, but he looked down at me. And he, like, he had to look, like, it looked like a giant was looking at me. He looks all the way down to, oh, Joel, and I felt like a child. Like, I just never had been in the presence of another adult that made me feel like a child.

You know what I mean? So he was humongous even then. And not only that, he's the big guy that plays practical jokes. So you're always going to have to be in your feet. And then it brings a little bit of more intimidation that you, he's, always fucking with you. Yeah. It's crazy, though, because you tell me, Bo, because, again, I don't know what this was,

but the 90s was sort of different for me in terms of black culture because I saw Shaq blowing up, man, at this time, and he was rapping and doing movies. I think maybe he had done Shazam already by then, or maybe it was coming up. And people were like, oh, man, Shaq, he's not serious, he's in the rap. And I kind of felt like, I was like, why are people, like, Shaq is great at basketball? Like, why are people being so critical of him? They're like, all he can do is dunk. Well, I was like, with shit.

That's all he needs to do. It's like, all he wants to do is run go routes. Yeah. And I just, so, I had a lot of sympathy for Shaq, but also, like, I was just sort of proud to see him out there. Like, he seemed like a good, fun, bubbly dude who was also crazy athletic. And so when they went up, man, I had an Orlando magic jacket and not a Houston Rocket's jacket. Yeah, the magic, the magic were a phenomenon. Yeah.

Right? So, Shaq, for me. David Robinson sort of fits this where it's the sure thing guy in the draft, right? The draft is coming. Whoever wins is going to take that guy and we think that guy is immediately going to be very good. David Robinson had to go to do two years on the boat,

but then he showed up and nothing was the same, right? Shack in year one did not produce in the same way that Robinson did, but it was obvious immediately. He was tearing down backboards. He just had a run those first two years where he dunked on everybody. He dunked on Elijah Watt. He gave morning a bad one.

He gave youing a bad one. Everybody got their turn of Shaquille O'Neal dunking on them. And buckling goals. He did that like twice, right? Right, right. He said the one he brought down from the top, and then he had the one he brought down from the bottle. Yeah.

And he was on TV all the time. It felt like he was always on inside stuff. And then the next year they got Penny Hardaway. I was such a Penny Hardaway fan that I had a Penny Hardaway jersey and I was at that age where you grow fast if I got another penny hard away journey. Like it was just a matter of stepping up. Also the magic jerseys were so icy. The black ones,

the white ones. It was so fly. The colors were fly. But they were flying because they was wearing them. We wasn't saying that shit was fly before they put them on. Right? That's true. But we, I thought that year, that 95 Magic team was a bit of a phenomenon. The thing was, in retrospect,

we never would have picked them. Although I guess some of us picked the Spurs this year, but they had not won a playoff game. coming into this year. Like, if you asked me to go pick this series again, I would have picked the Rockets, like knowing what I know about sports at this point, but the magic looked to be a superior team.

They sit Michael Jordan home. Like, you know, they, the Pacers who seemed like to be the other team that was ascending in that same way, they sent them home. Shack's averaging 30 points a game. Pity Hardaway is like, a lot of 2011, 2012, Thunder in this team, right?

Where they're just winning, based off town, they're kicking the shit out of these teams, but you don't really know who they are. Except the difference. is the 2012 thunder, this is more like the 2011 thunder. Because the 2011 thunder had happened before 2012 and they had gotten to the conference finals. But even then, Kevin Durant was not Shaq, right?

The game was not in such a way. The game that then prioritized the big man was much different. Shag was so much bigger, even Elijah, Juan, as good as he was. Elijah was like six, nine and a half. He's so much smaller than Shaq was. And the Magic Hand Home Court, right? They had the best record in the East. I think they might have had the best record.

I think it's not even making the argument. They were the more talented team and you could see that in game one. They were kicking the shit of them. No question. And like Nick Anderson has never been the same since then. But the way we looked in Nick Anderson, the way we looked at Dennis Scott. Like by then, we're not that far removed from Dennis Scott being like an awesome college basketball player who was a somewhat revolutionary small forward with the way that he shot

threes and everything else. And we have been watching them. I just said, I can't explain to you how many times they played on national television. We saw them play so much. And then the Rockets hung in in that game one. They hung in that game one. And even when Nick Anderson missing those four free throws, it took an Elijah one tip in,

which again is crazy because Shaq's on the floor. Elijah made that tip in for them to win the game. And then in game two, that's when that young was the issue. They didn't show up. The magic did not show up at all. It was over. Like my old ass now could look at that and immediately been like, oh, oh, oh, this is, it's a rap here, boys.

It reminded me a lot of this year's Knicks team, Beau, like, where it's like clearly the spurs are the more talented team. But every time it got down the stretch, you knew the Knicks were just going to win if it was close enough. Even if they were always in that game. That's what it felt like looking back on this team. You only felt that, though, after at the very end, maybe, maybe somewhere in the first half of the game too. because even after game one, I thought, oh, that was a fluke. Now, I didn't realize that Nick Anderson was going to be ruined forever. Right.

You know what I'm saying? I missed a couple shots. Yeah, I just, I was like, that's tough, but he'll be back. You're like, you'll be all right. Yeah, he'll be okay. He'll come back from that. Shit up. Yeah, he's a professional.

It'll be fine. But, I mean, they still, the magic can still just kick the rocket's ass that whole game one. Like, I was just like, man, that took a lot of effort for them to get back in that game. I don't know if they can do that again. Game two showed they're like, oh, okay, Rockets got this. Like, I don't, like, I don't even really remember much of the finals after that because I was like, once they went up 2-0, I was like, they got it. This is it.

Well, the magic, as I recall, the magic came strong in game three, but then game four, it was just like, that was a one, two, three, Cancun. Yeah. Like, not totally, like the magic didn't fold up, but. It was a coordinate. It felt like a game-long coordination, man. Yeah, no, I mean, and that's why the Rudy Tomjohnovich never, to make the heart of a champion thing,

there really is something to what happens when you win a championship. Right? Like, I, I, the part of that that fully solidified things for me was in the bubble, and the Toronto Raptors were down to, like, their last game at the end,

and this is without Kawhi Leonard, and I watched them turn into a swarming machine. And I was like, these are guys that just two years ago, we said didn't have it in them. And then they won that championship, and something came out of them. Like there's something different that happens.

It's a calm. It's a calm. Yeah. Yeah, like we have done this before and we are now perfectly aware of how hard it is to do this. And when you have to dial it up what it means to dial it up. And so for this team, you talk about the call, the jazz. Carl Malone's a notorious choker. Yep. You know, you get to the next round.

Charles Barkley never got there. And the ending for Charles Barkley on their closest times, a lot of it involves Charles Barkley running late to try to block somebody shot. I mean, look, man, he brought that shit over to the Rockets a couple years later, too, by the way. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that happened in 97. He was the last guy. You know, and he was a really good player that year, right?

Like, he played really well. But having won a championship is something different. And the magic learned that the spurs are a great example of that. Like, hey, this dude's going to run the league. But for right now, that guy does. Yep. Okay, so it was a sweep. After that first game, like you said, Beau, really wasn't that energy.

obtaining. Final stats, Akeem Olajuwon, 32 points, 11 boards. Shack was a monster, too, 28 points and 13 rebounds and six assists per game. Joel, was this a cyber leave you? Like, we're going to fuck around on three Pete. How did you feel the night they won the title? Oh, I mean, that just felt, I mean, the first one, I barely remember because, well, actually, I'm going to tell you, this is a very Joel reaction to the first championship. I'm driving home after the Knicks championship from my dad's house on the east side and I'm in my car. And I've been waiting my whole life for a championship. And I was like, damn, dog, I'm not going to get no championship ring. You know? And it kind of bummed me out a little bit, a little bit.

What the fuck. I was like, I was like, I did all this shit. I was like, I did all this shit. I'm not even. Oh, whoa, wait, wait, wait. Jesus Christ. Is that weird? We got our Joel moment. Is that weird? Don't say, don't everybody, everybody. Let us not say anything. for a little while and let it settle with us what just happened. Yeah. That's crazy, man. Your turn. Your turn.

Go ahead. All right. Got it, man. But the next year, because it seems so unexpected, because I, you couldn't enjoy the first, I mean, it took game seven, and it was down to the wire in that first year. So then you get there, it's just like, oh, sort of the banality of life. The second, the repeat championship, I didn't. expect it. I didn't, that whole year, I didn't expect anything like that to happen. They beat a team

that I really think that if the magic, if it had been a best of 19 series, I think the magic would have won. You know what I mean? Like, I thought the magic were a better team. Did you think that? No, so this year, I was wondering that. This year, I'm watching game four, my cousin's house in third world. We have girls over, whatever. And then they win. And then we flood into the streets, man. We went on the Richmond strip where they knocked off a stop and go. And they were doing a run on that. We went to the club. And so that, I enjoyed that one.

Like, that championship felt like a real championship. The first one, I kind of was like, eh, but the second one, that was just like a real, oh man, like we're a championship city. You know what I'm saying? Like, and- Shout out to stop and go, by the way. Stop and go on Richmond, man. They got you, bro.

I didn't go in there. I wouldn't, I didn't do that. But it was just like, damn, we're going broke. But it just, yeah, it was just like a catharsis. It just felt really, really good. also that we just got to enjoy the finals. And it didn't have to be nerve-wracking. We were in control the whole time and we won and it just stamped us and it stamped that era. Like, you could never just say the rockets were a flute. Like, I know a lot of people try to discredit

the championship by talking about who wouldn't there or whatever. But a two championship run in the middle of that, you just can't discount my rockets, bro. Like they're going to have. And they ran through every other superstar. Yep. Everybody got a piece. Yep. Barclay got it twice. Belon got it twice. Patrick Ewing got it. Jack got it. Like, they were Robinson. For both the 94 and 95 playoffs combined, Helkema Lajoan average 28.9, 28.9 points, 11 rebounds and 4.3 assist. How many blocks?

How many blocks? I like four blocks probably. His block numbers are crazy. His block numbers went crazy in the playoffs because also he's playing like 45. No, he averaged three blocks a game in the 95 one. And then he averaged four blocks of the 94 playoffs. It's insane. It's utterly insane. One of the greatest runs of all time. I believe it is the greatest center run of all time.

I want to go look back. And I think there's the tons that are comparable. I think is 67 Wilts, who they won the championship in Philly. And he went through Nate Thurman and went through Bill Russell. And then I think after that was the closest one was maybe 77. Kevin Kareem, but they lost to Bill Walton in that same that one. He didn't really have a lot of guys. 2000 Shack,

but 2000 Shack didn't have the centers or he didn't have the level of competition. And in terms of competition against centers, I think it's the greatest run that a frontboard man had ever had. Shack is probably number two just for the other dominance and I think that that overtakes the fact that he didn't have this much

competition. I would argue that 2001 Shack was better than 2000 Shack in the playoffs because he played and went up against David Robinson and Tim Duncan and then went into the finals and just put they swept them too. They swept them and they swept those and they swept them and they swept the spurs and they and they had a gentleman sweep with those Sixers teams. But that is the

the Houston Rockets Championship season. Let's go to the categories before any more tomfoolery from Joel Anderson. And we are back with categories. The biggest one, biggest what if. I have some what ifs before we get to the obvious biggest what if. There is what if Hakeem gets traded in 93. This run doesn't even happen. And, you know, Michael kind of is just the ghost that not only of this Rockets team, but of Hakeem Olajuwon and Houston Sports in general, right? Where, you know, they lose, the University of Houston loses to North Carolina in the semifinals of the 1983 final four. And then, you know, just Jordan reigns over.

But the biggest what if of this is what if Jordan plays? And what is your, what is your answer to that if Jordan is fully healthy during 95 and he's, not playing, you're not golfing, he's not playing baseball. What, what happens? What, what happens in your eyes if that is the case? What is, what is the argument that they, that the bulls continue their reign? And what is the argument that they don't? Well, I don't know what happens in 95 necessarily, but I think the Rockets beat him in 94. I think, or at least one of those. One, the Bulls had no answer for Laj Juan. Yeah. And I think we overstayed a little bit, like, how good Vernon was against Mike. He was just good to do.

in similar size. But the truth is, the people who think that the Bulls are going to win eight championships in a row, that man broke down from exhaustion after the three. Right. Yeah. You know, like, to me, that's a big part of it. They had no answer for a Lajuan. And I just don't think the Bulls had enough. I do want to push back, though, on the idea of Jordan's ghost.

And, Joe, you correct me if I'm wrong. Houston never raised the what if we had Jordan argument ever. Like, it's the greatest testament to Elycheon, even in the bad times, even in all this. There was never, there's no Sam Bui to this. There's no, even no matter what the, how their careers went by, you still take Elijah one number one. Well, yeah, the nature of that league, you do it. But, um, no, I never, ever got the feeling that people in Houston never felt like they

ever had the wrong guy. No. It was that. So like, I don't think, my brother always makes the point that the legend of Jordan from the 82 final four is retroactive. That in real time, that's not how people looked at it. It became a larger story was built, and then that part became raised up. Like, if hitting the shot is a thing, but like Keith Smart hit that shot for Indiana in

1987, there's no difference between those two shots. But no, Elijah Juan was Houston's, and that was always good enough. Yeah, I agree. Like, we never spent a lot of time fretting about not having Jordan. And if anything, I mean, we enjoyed our own championships. We didn't spend a lot of time thinking about the Bulls. I would argue that a lot of this didn't get started until social media or whatever, the argument about what would have happened if Jordan had. But we were just happy with what we had.

And, you know, we lived and died with dream. We saw what happened in the Final Fours. You know, he grew up in front of us, you know, changed. I mean, again, added the age to his name, became more devout in his Islam, married a local Houston girl, you know. So, I mean, yeah, I don't think we would have traded anything. I still wouldn't. I still like the fact that I got the root for Akeem Elijah one when I did. So, yeah, no, he's, we don't, we didn't spend a lot of time fretting about not getting MJ.

Another biggest, what if the, the Rockets attempted to trade Robert Ori and Sam Cassell to the Detroit Pistons for Sean Elliott, but the deal was nullified after Elliot failed a physical. To me, the, so you want to talk about a strong rebrand. Robert Ory pre-95 and post-95 Reviewed Robert Ory used to do the dumby shit Joe you remember that he's just be throwing the ball in the crowd and then it's out like spaced out Like when they traded him

That was almost by popular demand I was kind of like I kind of like Sean Elliott let's see what happens And this is year too right And now people weren't that Keep in mind that people Wanted the Rockets to say Harold Minor They took Robert Ory because people thought

Harold Mider was baby Jordan But even still that trade, it is wild that they put it back together, right? It was just like, all right, well, this is what it's going to be. Okay, you're here now. I think they would have been a worst team had they made that trade because I'm not a big Sean Elliott fan. The only thing is, Sean Elliott would have been great for the way they were playing.

Just a bunch of wide open threes. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, yeah, I mean, to think about Ori, and I don't know if you remember this, though, I felt like when he got drafted, there were, this is going to sound crazy, but I know I'm not making this up. That people had these comparisons to Scottie Pippen, that he was athletic and he was going to be kind of a point forward. I mean, which is crazy because as Beau said,

he played center in college. He was a center in Alabama. He played point guard. Yeah. So it's like even that kind of, but so by that comparison, everybody kept waiting for, all right,

well, if he's not going to average 25 a game, when the rest of this all around, smart defensive game would come around, and he never quite did. I mean, that's just not who Robert Orr he is. And so we were,

you know, yeah, there was a lot of dissoning. disappointment around him and we thought that Sean Elliott, we needed offense, thought that would be the thing that worked. But yeah, you know, thankfully for everybody, the trade worked out, well, maybe not Sean Elliott, but. It was the beginning of anybody got a kidney. Yeah, you know. Let me hold one. Shout out, shout out Sean Elliott. But yeah, man, you know, it didn't work out

for you. But for everybody else, we were just kind of like, yeah, I mean, like, I'm glad that Robert Orr made it back and they started to show more trust in it. Like, I I think him getting traded, I think actually helped him mentally too, right? Because he's like, well, what difference does it make? I think he even said something along those lines. It's like, I might as well go out here and beat me and shoot with confidence. Biggeste sports movement. I think we have that.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Logan, you missed the biggest what else. What's the biggest what if I apologize? If the Sonics had been able to be, if the Sonics had gotten through one of them years. That is the one because them boys was, them boys was. them boys was a problem the Rockets could not fuck with the Sonics man At all

You saw I have it in 96 Like when the Rockets beat the Sonics in 97 People were responding the same way As like the Rockets making the finals Yes Finally we broke through Not winning a championship But making the finals

Beating the Sonics man Soics were a thing If the Sonics hadn't choked man I don't know if those Rockets Runs had that was a team I was scared of more than the bulls. Yeah, but it is funny because the soddick's choking then leads into 95 where they lost in the first round and Nick Van Exel and Vladay Divot, which I don't think happens if they

win the year before. That's right. That's right. That's right. Biggesteat sports moment, Ruby Tom Jonovic, never underestimate the heart of a champion. This is an interesting one. How did this team in their win change the NBA if at all? They are the first team to truly play a, we're going to shoot a.

gang of threes. Mm-hmm. Offense. It doesn't seem that way when you look back at the raw numbers. But they, the 94 team, for example,

they led the league, I think, at three-pointers attempted at three-points made. Like, Rudy brought it in. We go get the ball to a lot of a lot. They were basically the O-9 magic before time. Very, very similar.

I think that might be the best comparison to make. But it is, it's a long process, but I do think that team was part of the beginning acceptance of the role of the three-pointer in modern basketball. And when you think about it again, when you're center six-nine, they were playing a form of small ball by the time you get to 95.

This is Apex Mountain. Which player coach executive event in the franchise orbit were at their peak when this happened? I guess you can make the argument that this was Hakeem's absolute peak as a player. Is this? Joe, correct me if I'm wrong, it's Elijah Watt and Rudy. Otherwise, nobody else can say this. Oh, yeah. I mean, Rudy really.

Could Kenny Smith, this is a Kitty Smith apex mountain here? I mean, no, probably not. T&T. Inside the NBA is probably Apex Mountain. No, no, no, but that is a good, that's a good pull because that those two championships as a player. I think this is Apex Mounder for Kenny Smith. Yeah, but he was sitting in fourth quarters for Sam.

I know. That's right. But that championship, that game one of the 95 finals is probably why Kenny Smith is sitting where he is today. Obviously, he's been very good at his job. Like, I mean, he's lasted through magic, Chris Weber, all these other people. So he's obviously really good at his job and he has chemistry with Chuck. But that game right there gets him in.

into that and gets him into that path. And so I think that's a big deal. But yeah, to your point. But Rudy T, man, because Rudy T. gets to coach the Olympics after that. They made the Lakers made a run at him after that. He's a Hall of Famer. But those two championships, man, dream.

I mean, you know, that's as good as it ever got for Rudy Tom Johnover. Yeah, like Rudy wound up making the Hall of Fame. But people really do kind of treat Rudy like, okay, he a right, right? Except we were there. Yeah. The second he got the job. Things were different. His offense in general transforms this team.

The one center four-out, that literally transforms them into the championship. Remember, it wasn't like that in 94. It really, like, 94 was the beginning of it because he had OT. But 95, it was like, okay, Clyde Drexler became a spot-up three-point shooter. Yeah. The other thing that I think about it with Houston and the Rockets is like when you talk about, when you see the Ralph Samson and Akeem-Alajuwon years, it's, it's, it's, great because they're twin towers, but by and large, in NBA history, that doesn't work.

You know, when you have two guys that are of a big height. So when you have a guy like Akeem Olajuon, it's actually easier if you just put all these shooters around him. You didn't know that in 1986. But that was the model, I think, that we got here. That's probably the apex mountain for, you know, futuristic basketball, Joe. But if, hold on, let me say he's right fast. I'm sorry. If Samson doesn't get hurt, there's an argument that it evolves into a four out with him anyway, because don't forget he was not the center. He was the 7 foot 4. He was power 4.

That's right. That's right. And I was going to say, like, I don't, I mean, they made it to the finals. They beat the Showtime Lakers, man. Like, who's the thing? And he beat the 86 Celtics, which was the greatest Celtics team. Yeah, they got two, they got two games off the Celtics and one of them in Boston. I think Boston had lost one home game that entire year.

Yep. So, like, they were pretty special. And the reason that that doesn't work is because nobody is able to put together the combination of Akeem Elijah won and young, healthy Ralph Sampson. Now, I would argue if you could do that, then maybe the Twin Tower thing works, but that's just, you never going to get that kind of a combination, man.

Is this Apex Mountain? Is Houston as a sports city? Ooh. I mean, I don't see any counter argument to it. I mean, I guess it depends on what you think about the Astros here. But I think that's different. Yeah. I mean, I haven't lived in Houston

full time since 2005. So for the entirety of my life, that's the height, right? Like, it comes right as the oilers are falling apart and then eventually move, you know, so we don't have the Oilers for a long time and the Texans are sorry for a long time after that. The Astros win their championships,

but even then, you know, people are trying to do the Astros thing with the trash can and shit. So you can't take the championship, those Rockets championships away from us, bro. Like that? Like you, like you have 1980, the Astros go to the World Series, and then in 81, the Rockets go to the finals, but that was a 40 and 42 team. Right. That did that. You have, we talked about it before, 86, where the Rockets go to the finals and the Astros go to the World Series, and I think they lose game six. I'm not the World Series,

the National League Championship Series. I always said they lose game six on like 29 innings or something like that. Again, and both of those teams playing against two of the greatest teams of all the teams, all-time great teams in their respective sports. But yeah, I don't, they went back-to-back champion. I mean, outside of the Astros, those are the only championships. And back-to-back, back-to-back, it's hard to do, man. Yeah, man. Especially at any point, at any point, it is.

And also, let me make this point about that Jordan shit. Don't nobody say that about the 99 spurs, right? Like, what championships do and don't count? Because Michael Jordan wasn't there. You know what I think is with the argument, the reason why I think the argument, the reason why I think the argument gets legs for the rockets more than the spurs is because we saw with the bulls when they got back, right? You saw the 72 wins and that really colors it.

It's a different team. But you get those arguments towards the end when my generation, right, where we always see, I'm doing research. You guys lived it. I'm doing research on this. Like, hey, huh, they couldn't have beat them. Like, a Jordan was like a god. There's no way that they could have beat them. Right. I think as we get on and older and older, you know, you have a little bit a different perspective. But who won the year, B'amani? It's got to be Akima Lajuan. Like, that takes Akim Alajuan from high-level Hall of Famer to

indisputable all-time, great. Yeah, I got him. I got Mario Ellie. Dude, Mario Ellie, like, I feel like if Mario Ellie hadn't have gone to play for the Spurs, his Houston Legend status is a little bit different. Yeah. I mean, but you know what his-champions. Joel hates the Spurs.

You have to keep in mind. He didn't just win a championship. He went there and was like, yo, before I got here, we would say these cats was soft, and now that I'm here, I'm telling you, they soft. That's true. I mean, but, man, Mario Ellie, man, I know you say he wanted it sent, but he married a Houston TV broadcaster, Gina Gaston. Oh, I didn't know he married to Gina Gaston.

He was married to Gina. He still married to Ginna Gasson. They had two kids to play basketball at Memorial High School. So he's a Houston guy now, you know, even though he won in San Antonio. So I felt like Mario, he knew where his, you know, he knew where his bread was buttered, man. He's a legend around the kiss of death. You'll never be able to take that away from him.

And don't you think Clyde? Clyde, don't you think Clyde gets something else? I was going to say, what's your argument for Clyde? There's an argument to be made for Clyde Drexler winning this year, right? He basically brings them from the argument there, right? Like, what would you say could give him the edge, bow? That's a good question. Like, I don't know how people view Clyde's ring.

Mm-hmm. You know? He was a ringer. He was, but he wasn't. You know what I mean? by it's a little tricky. That's a great question. Because they don't win the championship without them, right?

Oh, of course not. No. We don't want to. No. That leads to this question. There's only one answer for this one. Who lost the year? Mr. Vernon Maxwell.

Right. I think we can all agree on that one, right? It has to see his team win a title. Is there anybody you think that that could take that cake, Joel? Man, that's a tough one. That probably is right. I mean, because Vern says that he, he misses that.

You know what I'm saying? That's a real hole in his career. And he was really, he was really close to the city. He was really close to that team. And I'm sure that, like, watching that at a distance probably had to hurt. He would have two.

I mean, did he still get a ring, Paul? Did he still get a ring out of that? He did get a ring out of that? Yeah. Yeah. But that's tough, man. And so, yeah, I wish he had been there in retrospect. Because that's one of, again,

he wasn't the best Houston basketball players. not even one of the top top 10 rockets of all time, but he's one of my top three favorite rockets of all time. And it just kind of sucks that he couldn't have gotten a championship ring out of it. Anti-hero. Anti-hero, man. I mean, it was a bad. Man, when I found out that Vernon Maxwell was an all-state safety in Florida,

so much as everything made more sense about his football career, you know? Ain't nothing like football players playing basketball, man. Ain't nothing like it. Nothing like it in the world, especially football players from Florida. Man, that has been another edition of NBA lore. Rockets edition, the 1994-1995 season. Joel, did you get through this okay? We're good?

You feeling good? How you're going after this? I got to remember some good times, man. You know, I would love to have, I would love to pass that onto my son someday. So yeah, hell yeah. For sure. Thank you guys.

Thanks so much, Bo, for doing this. Thanks so much, Joel, for doing this. Maybe we'll do this again sometime. NBA lore, real ones. Peace.