The Ringer NBA Show - Ringer NBA Lore: The 1999-2000 Champion Los Angeles Lakers

Episode Date: August 13, 2026

Welcome to a Real Ones special edition series we’re calling Ringer NBA Lore, where we remember iconic teams and moments in NBA history. Today, Logan Murdock is joined by Howard Beck and Tim Kawakami to dive deep into the first championship run of the Lakers' 2000s three-peat. Howard and Tim both covered the team that season, so they share their stories and behind-the-scenes insights on the friction between Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O’Neal, Phil Jackson’s mind games, Jerry West’s influence, and how this team defined the NBA at the turn of the century. (00:00) Intro (7:56) Lakers trade for Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O’Neal (18:56) Phil Jackson arrives (28:44) Regular season (38:56) Media wars (50:44) Playoffs and Shaq wins MVP (54:46) Lakers-Blazers playoff series (1:11:28) Finals (1:24:03) Covering the championship (1:30:26) Biggest what-ifs Hosts: Logan Murdock and Howard Beck Guest: Tim Kawakami Producers: Logan Murdock, Conor Nevins, and Ben Cruz Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Audio Producer: Clifford Augustin Social: Abou Kamara Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping? Real Ones homies. Logan Murdoch here. Just here to have an announcement before this pod, we are starting a new series within the Real Ones universe called NBA lore where we talk about teams. We talk about moments. We talk about series in NBA history. And we get some of the experts on the sport to talk us through. And the first edition of this is going to be the 1999, 2000 Los Angeles Lakers, the beginning of the dynastic run between Kobe and Shaq. and we got some legends of the sport and legends of the writing game. We have Tim Kawakami who covered the team for the Los Angeles Times. And we have Howard Mother Effing Beck who covered the team for the LA Daily News. We get into a number of discussion points. I really, really hope you like this series because we're going to continue to grow it. Thanks so much. NBA lore Los Angeles Lakers, 1999, 2000.

Up next. What's good? What's popping? How y'all doing? Welcome to a new series that we are debuting on the Real On the Rear NBA feed. A thing we like to call NBA lore where we do a deep dive into a specific team moment or series of NBA history. And it's basically a way for real ones and myself in particular to talk to legends of the sport and talk to them about specific teams. So I got two legends here.

We are going to be talking about the 1999, 2000. Los Angeles Lakers. I have Howard Beck, who covered the Los Angeles Lakers starting the 1997 season for the Los Angeles Daily News up until the 2004 season. And I have Tim Kawakami, who also covered the team in 1999, 2000, before he went on to do great things up in the Bay Area, where I met him and was simultaneously scared in wanting to get his respect at all times. So I'm really, really excited to have both of you guys how you're working on that logan you're still working on that part there but i'm still here we're figuring it out it's really dope to have you guys in here and i'm excited to have you guys in the ruins fold what was it like for y'all too before we get to covey and shack

and the finals and the start of a dynasty and all that what was it like for you two on the beat together how was that what was that dynamic like i'm very fast i'm still scared of tim kalakami so mortal enemies death glares anger I think maybe Howard would speak differently, but when you cover something as intense as that, you either go absolutely separate ways or you kind of fuse together just going through us stuff and we were competitors. We were, I think we, you know, was that iron sharpens iron. We both got better because of the other one. But you get yelled up by Jerry West at any point in your career. You kind of share that moment together. You kind of go through it together and that's, that's, that's,

to kill, O'Neal, you got Kobe, probably whatever or LL. So I think Howard and I did not know each other before we started on this beat. I had, you know, we'd both been in the area. I'd bounce, I'd covered various different beats. I think this Howard was your first sports beat, which was always interesting. You throw your first sports beat is the friggin' Lakers of Shaq and Kobe. But it was great because Howard became one of my closest friends, certainly in the business. We got along.

Great. We had more than a few dinners together. We know it with each other orders all the time. We make fun of each other for that. But it was all good. And yeah, I think we're still pretty good friends, Hoback, that's my understanding of it. I think that's accurate.

I think that's accurate, all of it, including the iron sharpening iron part of it. It wasn't my first sports beat. It was my first pro sports beat, which is might as well be the same thing, right? If you've covered, like, you know, high school football and lacrosse, it's not quite the same thing as covering Shaq and Kobe and the NBA. So fair. Tim was definitely much more experienced than I was. And he was the second beat writer. He was at the LA Times, the second beat writer from the LA Times that I competed against after Scott Howard Cooper. And the thing I like to say just from a professional standpoint, journalism standpoint, is that the thing that was most critical for me in those early years was Scott Howard Cooper and some others really were kind in showing me the ropes in how to navigate the Lakers and the NBA in general, including travel and stuff. And then Kawakami comes on.

And Tim and Scott very, very different, both incredible reporters, but very different. And, you know, I always felt I had to raise my level. I'm going to open the LA Times. It's going to be on my doorstep every morning. And it's like, did Kawakami kick my ass today or not, right? And if he didn't, cool. Did I win a couple of battles along the way? Then I feel okay about myself.

My self-esteem is intact. But I think the main thing that I think about on the beat, Tim, for you and me, was we were both pretty newsy in the way we covered the league. So we were both going to be pretty aggressive in our questioning. When the shit was going down, it's not to say that anybody else didn't ask questions, but Tim and I might, you know, kind of tag team it sometimes where it's like he's asking the question of Shaq about Kobe or whatever. And then I'm following up.

Like we were never letting anybody off the hook. I think we both had that same mindset. Like we have an obligation here to cover the news of the Lakers in addition to all the spectacular basketball of the Lakers. And so that was a really fun. Exactly. And I was telling. Yeah, it was really, there was a.

ton of news, absolutely. And I think that kind of spirit was met by the players, like not all the time. But Jerry's shirt accepted tough questions. Sometimes he'd yell back at you, but he'd accept it. And I think that kind of was throughout the team. And I've always thought this. Like, I was coming from the UCLA beat and the boxing beat, some big stuff, National Championship, Delaware, whatever. But first time I ever heard the words sign and trade was Howard Beck asking a question to Jerry, and I went, holy shit, I got to learn what that means. Like, I mean, I had known a little bit of it, but like this, or you're the sign and trade. It's like, it just, that was a moment for me on the NBA beat. Again, you're around the UCLA team.

Like, I knew Arne. I kind of knew Kobe a little bit just because they work out at UCLA. Like, you're kind of already in it. I covered Bob Myers, by the way, when he was a walk-on for the UCLA and that shit. Like, you're kind of in it already, but the terminology, the pace of it. When Howard's asking questions, I had to go, I got to figure out what these things are. And it made me get to speed. And I do appreciate that.

But yeah, like we'd ask questions. And I know, maybe famously, I was asking a lot of questions. That's what. Shaquille always would point that out to me. But I believe that. I believe in that. I believe that this is how you figure out stuff. This is how you bounce off of people.

This is how they get to know who you are. and Howard was certainly right there in it. And there were a few others, but big picture, if you want to connect this anyway, I know it's not about other teams, but this absolutely was my guide to how to cover the Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Warriors. It was very similar for me. It was the circus. Everyone's going to look at them as this thing over here.

There's this other thing over here, but let's go down the middle. Exactly. Let's do a part of the cartoon elements. Let's do also part of the historical elements. but also keep our eye on the ball of what this really is. And it was much simpler for me because I'd gone through it. Because the Lakers thing was unbelievable. Like, we'll talk about it.

But like, you're throwing into it and stuff's getting thrown up in every other website all over the place. And if it had to do with Shaquille O'Neal or Kobe Bryant, it was massive and we had to react to it. The story of the 1999-2000 Lakers actually begins in the summer of 1996. where Jerry West engineers a trade to get Bladee DeVox. And I know that people will see it on the face value and say, oh, easy deal to do. But it was hard to maneuver that deal because on one hand, you're trying to get an unproven player in Kobe Bryant who's coming out of high school. It was unproven at the professional ranks or the college ranks.

And then also you have Vladay DeVox who is threatening to retire. And then on the other end, after that deal gets done, he's, Jerry West is back and forth with Shaq's representatives trying to get Shaq and pry him away from Orlando as the architect of this this championship team. What was Jerry trying to build in 1996? How did he go about it in that summer? How important was that summer for him? And what was it like in Los Angeles during that time? Yeah, I mean, so those maneuvers come before either of us were on the beat.

But this is, you know, just a little bit from memory and from lore to use a, a word that's relevant to this episode. I was living in Ventura then doing a much different job. And I mean, it couldn't have been bigger. Getting Shaq free. It's funny because going back in context, people just, Kobe was a curiosity. The 13th pick of the draft, right? 13th.

Like, so he was a curiosity. This was the preps to pros era was barely underway. Garnett. hadn't become dominant yet. And so I don't think most people outside of basketball, and maybe clearly even a lot of people inside basketball, really understood the significance of drafting Kobe or trading for his draft rights, I should say, when it happened.

But Shaq? Shaq was another matter. Shaq had been to the finals. Shaq was already one of the biggest athletes, personalities, celebrities in all of sports. And prying him from Orlando was a huge freaking deal. And it had been, you know, whatever, not quite a decade since the Lakers' last championship or last finals run and since Showtime dissolved. Shaq put them back on the map.

And Kobe was, at least on day one, more of a curiosity. There was a hope and a belief, but not an absolute confidence that he was going to become the superstar that he did. But Jerry knew. That's the thing. Nobody else was quite certain of it. But Jerry Freaking West was absolutely certain what Kobe Bryant either would be or certainly could be. And there's the famous private workout that they had where as the tale goes, Kobe busted Michael Cooper's ass. Michael Cooper in later years, I think, has tried to downplay that and say it really wasn't all it was said to be.

But I've talked to people who were in that workout and they say Kobe busted his ass. So sorry, Michael Cooper. But that's, that was. By the way, by the way, can I put some. on Michael Cooper real quick. It was 1990. It was 1996. He was at the end there.

He wasn't, it wasn't 1986 Michael Cooper. He was older. But still. But the man's got pride and he was, you know, a great defender in his time. And this is a 17-year-old coming in. So that workout, I think I wrote a whole piece about just that workout one time. One of those years, I haven't looked at that clip in a very long time. But it was everybody who was in the room then basically was like, yeah, you knew.

You could see it. And so what Jerry West pulled off in the span of whatever it was 10 days, 14 days is absolutely incredible. I mean, we've seen other halls, right? Pat Riley signing LeBron and Bosch and resigning Dwayne, that's going to be one of those days where it's not just the one acquisition. It is creating an entire championship team in a matter of hours. You know, the Warriors landing Kevin Durant. I know it doesn't look as good in today's light, but the net signing, Rant and Kyrie was a big deal at the time.

The Clippers getting Paul George and Kauai Leonard. You have these sometimes these one-day halls. And what Jerry did in getting Shaq and Kobe in the span of a couple weeks of one summer, that might be top of the list for all time. And certainly, I think, of the modern era off the top of my head. And then we'll get to it. But I think it is almost just as important what they did after that to put the right guys around them. Yeah, I was going to say, just from what we know, the pressure,

that had been building leading up to 99, 2000 was immense. Because they had, they got these two players together. Shaquille, obviously, the lead one. And then we all could see what kind of Kobe is a rookie. We know that, you know, I covered those playoffs, the air ball in Utah. And then the second season, they were not blowing up the league, though. Like they were good. They weren't great.

Utah was better. And this pressure had been building, Del Harris. you know, then Kurt Rambus. We could talk about the crazy year that the lockout shortened year that led up to the 99,000, which was my first year, and which was insane, absolutely insane because it was Del Harris, Del Harris fired, Dennis Rodman signed, Bill Burka is the interim coach, Kurt Rambus is the next interim coach, all sorts of insanity, all this pressure. People were just going, just like, you know, Rambis.

was just going crazy with the pressure on them. And this was the thing because it started in the summer of 96. Like you're going to win championship, not just one. You are built up to be the next mega franchise and it hadn't happened yet. That's really important to remember. At least like if you're trying to discuss what 99,000 meant, it was not inevitable. Absolutely was not inevitable. Now, Phil Jackson hiring certainly makes you think it was much more.

possible. But it was like, who knows if this is going to happen? They trade Eddie Jones. That opens up the full really rotation spot for Kobe. Like there's all these things that had to be kind of manipulated to get them to where they were in 99, 2000. And it was not at all a sure thing. In fact, it was like, what if this doesn't work? And Jerry was going crazy. And how it remembers the story? That was, I think, the 98, 99, the lockout short in season. and I wanted to talk to Jerry, things were not working out. The Rodman thing, which Jerry did not want to do. That was a Jerry bus thing.

I want to talk to Jerry. Jerry wasn't talking. John Black was a PR director, which, you know, very close to Jerry. And he was like, then for something, he took us to lunch, right? Me and Howard and maybe one of the person at the forum club, which is where people go to lunch. And then Jerry's there. And I'm like, looking at John. I go, am I talking to him here?

He's like, kind of nods his head. So I said, how are you doing Jerry? he's like something like, oh, you can just blame me. That's what you do. You blame me. Like, okay. Like that he said, he walks away. And then I call black back later. I go, was that on a record? He goes, you talk to him. You want to talk to him. There he was. That's what he said. So I put it in the freaking story.

I remember Howard even goes, was that on the record? I think that was the headline in your paper. I think it was quote. Blame me in like a hundred and twenty eight point time. What was the preemptism of the story? Why? What was the blame? I think it was during the Robbman had joined the team, then left the team, you know, things were getting offline. There was a Shaq and Kobe. The tension had begun

for sure with those two that season. Remember in the practices leading up after the lockout, you know, Shaq slapped Kobe. That was from Olden Polyne. Like this is when I really knew this was getting, like this was getting huge because that became a national story that Olden Paulinez, who wasn't even on the team, had told someone that Shaq had slapped Kobe, which was true. And it just things had been building and building and building again. That's why I just want to emphasize the tension, not just between Shack and Kobe, but between the Lakers not succeeding and everyone assuming that they had to. So it was in that period. I don't remember exactly, but it definitely was, remember, they traded Eddie Jones and Alda Campbell for Glenn Rice. That was a huge move.

That was a gigantic move. Eddie Jones, people don't, may not remember, but a really important player, really good player, really popular player. By the way, the closest person to Kobe, because Philadelphia ties. This was all happening in that mix of that era. Jerry was kind of going crazy. I think Jerry would tell you he was going crazy. So the blame me was in that thing. Like, they weren't a terrible team. They just weren't a good team, a good enough team. And so at the forum club, as he's walking by or however that happened, blame me became a very famous quote. and Howard and I will continue to say to each other all the time. But it was one of those like, John, this is really, that's what I'm going to use.

You want to talk to him. That's the quote. Okay. That's the quote. And Jerry, Jerry wasn't mad. He wasn't mad. I used that quote at all. It was just a perfect encapsulation, I think, of just the pressures that were set up.

It's always full of pressure when you're the Lakers, right? It's every day, that's what they are. They're expected to win championships. But this one was building and building and building two. an explosive point because of all the talent they had. So 1996, Lakers trade for Kobe shortly after the 1996 draft. They also draft Derek Fisher and they signed Shaquille O'Neal. They pair them with guys like Nick Van Exel and like you said, Eddie Jones, both of

which are traded. Nick Van Exel was traded for Tony Bette and Tyron Lou. Remember that name. And then in 1999, the Lakers traded Eddie Jones and Eldon Campbell for Glenn Rice, who will talk about him in a few. But this all sets up, right? There's also the hubris that is involved with this, right? There's the incident at L.A. Southwest College when, as you guys said, Kobe gets slapped by

Shaquille O'Neal, and Odin Polonies, by the way, who was just trying to get a tryout. He wants to be a Laker. That is his favorite team. And he ends up at this run at L.A. Southwest at this random day. And he winds up being in the middle of it. And not only does this mess up the relationship between Kobe and Shaq going into the lockout year, it messes up Olden Paulinez's chance to become a Laker. And so you're having all that.

Then you go into the lockout year where Dennis Robman for no reason, I don't even know if he's in basketball shape, gets a pro-rated deal to become a Laker. And I think it was a pro-rated veteran's minimum deal. And he has to play his way in his shape. It's like a whole two-week fiasco of him even actually. Well, they won. They won games, by the way.

Yeah. He didn't show up half the time. Exactly. But they won. And then you go on. to that season and it's basically the the the the lakers seem like they have crapped out on every single thing except for the coach and you have bill jackson who is who is who's won six titles with the chicago bulls won a few titles with the nix as a player and he's taking a year off

he's in montana but he's you know he's kind of flirting with the idea of getting back into coaching right he's flirting with the nicks a little bit he's showing up to lakers games and it seems like the Lakers are kind of circling each other, and it culminates at a press conference at the Beverly Hilton, where a lot of things are going on. Kobe Bryant actually goes up to Phil Jackson's room in the suite and tries to, you know, just say how excited he is to play with them. Shaq is obviously excited to play with them. Tim, what did this dawn and this press conference mean in terms of the transition from what the Lakers were as a family-run organization? into what they were becoming as Phil Jackson is becoming the coach at this point. Very different. Obviously, it's been a very Jerry West front office kind of directed team.

I mean, you know, clashing with Pat Riley in years before. But that was part of like Jerry West won that one when he and Riley kind of headbutted. Even Riley was the figure that he was. I think Jerry said it maybe off the record or I can't remember now. But it was like, okay, he's going to hire someone who Shaq and Kobe can't get fired. That's what we need. That's when he can convince that Phil was the guy. I don't think he was convinced about the triangle. He was convinced about exactly what Phil's strategies were going to be.

But he wanted to hire a guy that was going to be the coach if they go, you know, 60 and 22 or if they go 22 and 60. Now, literally not 22 and 60, but like, yeah, they could not. undermine this guy. This guy was the coach. They paid him way more money than any other coach in Laker history. He comes in with this Bulls background. He comes in with the, you know, the whole philosophies and the mindset. And you have to do it. Now, obviously, was Shaq going to get trading? No. I mean, it just was much more a normal situation where it wasn't going to be, okay, you guys are unhappy. This guy's not working. He's fired. Like Phil Jackson was not that. I think there was a fear that Kurt Rambos was going to be another line of that.

Maybe more influence than Del Harris or whatever, but it just was a kind of redirecting of the power center, away from the players and Jerry to at least partially. And knowing the way Phil operated, maybe they didn't even know how much he was going to take control of the way they were going to play, the way they were going to organize the locker room, the way they were going to organize the entire set up. And Phil did that. And Phil had every intent to do that. And I think Shaq and Kobe needed somebody that they understood had outside authority, not just because he was a coach Lakers, just because he was who he was. And there aren't many people like that. Chuck Daly was the only other one that I could think of who had that Pat Riley at the time. Obviously, Pat wasn't

going to come back. That's it. And I think they hadn't really gone through that. They hadn't and they realized they needed that. Didn't mean it was absolutely going to work. But with Phil and knowing Phil, as we know now, that personality, he does not bend. He does not look around. He was going to figure out how he wanted to do this and they were going to do it. And it might not have won the way they won, but that's the way he was going to. Again, I connect this to the warriors, it's Steve Kerr.

Like, it just, if you're going to different personalities, but obviously in an interesting connection of philosophies, you're not firing these guys. You're not. Figure it out because this is not just another coach. This is a special coach who is going to do it the way he's going to want to do it. Now, obviously, there's moderation and there's, you know, compromises, whatever. But just the general knowledge that this wasn't a guy that you can just figure out. This wasn't Brian Hill, former shack coach. This wasn't, you know, somebody that just was disposable. Phil Jackson, not disposable. And, I think that was the thunderbolt through the whole organization, that people cared what Phil had to say. People showed up for the press conference. Victor Brick showed up for that press conference and dominated it. And it just was a signpost that this was going to be different. And I think that was really important. The thing about Phil Jackson going into this season was Phil, he's obviously a master of mind games in all way, shapes and forms, right? And then the players also on their end really felt like they wanted to find time to respect him or figure out a way to get on his good side at least early on, right?

Howard, how did you experience at least during that training camp, I think was at UC Santa Barbara? How did you see Phil trying to make those mind games happen between these two stars in particular? Just the backdrop of this, I think, is a note we haven't really hit necessarily, which is Phil, to Kobe and Shaqville represented different things. To Kobe, he represented Michael's coach. And so Kobe wanting to be like Mike. And in that time, you know, the triangle offense meant something, right? It's kind of denigrated now.

But at the time, it meant something. And it certainly meant something to Kobe who had studied it and who I think had reached out to Tex winner even before Tex ever came to the Lakers, if I'm remembering correctly. And so Kobe was like just intellectually curious, basketball, curious about the triangle offense. And he admired Phil from afar and Phil was Michael's coach. For Shaq, Shaq always talked about he basically needed an authoritarian. He needed somebody who was as big in their walk of life as a coach as he was as a player.

So Shaq was always saying, like, I need a Chuck Daly type. I need Pat Riley, who he eventually seeks out in place for in Miami. Shaq needed somebody who could command his respect because I'm sorry, if it was Kurt Rambis, if it was Brian Hill, if it was certain other people, like Shaq was not going to, he wasn't going to listen the same way. You know, Shaq always, he was raised by the Sarge, right? His stepfather and Phil Harrison. And that's what Shaq, I mean, there's a complicated relationship there, too.

But Shaq needed somebody to basically like metaphorically smack him upside the head and tell him when he was doing stuff wrong and to get with the program. Phil Jackson represented that. So Phil had the gravitas, the authority, the track record, not for nothing, the rings to be able to get both of the these guys to pay attention and to get in their lanes and to at least try to work together, which, as we know, sometimes went well and sometimes didn't. So to me, that's the significance of Phil arriving is that he's the one guy probably in the league at that time who could command the respect of both of these guys for somewhat different reasons. The mind games part of it is hard to, like the first thing I think about actually is Robert Orie because in in Chicago,

Phil would single out Horace Grant and criticize him publicly for stuff that Horace wasn't doing as representative of things that the team wasn't doing because he thought Horace could handle it and it was the same with Robert Ory where it was like, there are times I can't just like call out Kobe

for being selfish or Shaq for being obstinate or whatever. I'm just, I'm going to make an example of Robert Ori. I'm going to call him out. And I think Rob even joked about this at times in real time and certainly since. So it was things like that. But it's hard.

to remember anything concrete. I do remember going to Santa Barbara for that training camp. I don't recall where, like, I do, there was definitely something, Tim. Do you remember? Like, Phil, I did think, yeah. Well, the first practice, they didn't have ball, like, they didn't put basketballs out. The theoretic, I think there was some, but the idea was, we're going to start this, and you're just going to be movement without the ball. It's going to be non-basketball. And, you know, that took on a metaphorical thing. I don't think it was a huge deal, but it hit the players that this is going to be, you know, and Phil has this whole metaphysical thing and this whole, you know, you know, piece pipe and we're going to, you know, we're going to, I think there was some,

wasn't there some yoga or meditation, right? There's a meditation room. And I just think those ideas were floating around to kind of reset some of the ways that, you know, this wasn't just going to be basketball, but, you know, your agent says this and your, you know, your rival over here and your contract means it was going to be a little different than that. And I think that was like the big part that I got out of the training camp. And then training camps are short in the NBA. We know, they're not like bunk down and everyone sings kumbaya. That's not an NBA training camp. They're short and you have games. But the other thing I remember, didn't Kobe break his hand in preseason? Yeah. Kobe breaks his hand in preseason. Yeah. So that that was really interesting because

it kind of like reset some things knowing Kobe's. coming back, also, Kobe started shooting left-handed. It's like, all of a sudden, Kobe's like, I am now going to be able to shoot left-handed, which he took for the rest of his career. It was amazing. That was one of my first, like, this guy's special. This guy, like, he was telling me, like, those are the times that we could chat in the locker room, especially when Kobe's hurt. We just chat, well, yeah, I'm going to start shooting left-handed now. And I could shoot pretty good Frito's left-handed. I might even start shooting Frito. Like, it was one of those things. It's like, okay. And then he starts being able to shoot left-handed, he's at least finish.

left-handed was one sign to me that this guy is just a different kind of cat. This guy is going to do some ridiculous things in this world, and he wants to do it. And beyond whatever, you know, theoretical things and emotional things, they just started freaking winning. Like, they were just winning from the get-go. And nothing proves everything is correct more than winning basketball games. nothing makes everyone feel like this is the right direction, like winning basketball games. Maybe if they were 20 and, you know, 12, they still felt that, but I don't think they were. I think they were, they started off very well. They were winning big road games.

They were winning showcase games. It just felt right. The offense was working well. And I just think, you know, whatever you can say about how things started in camp, they had to win games. and the winning games was a huge part of it. Kobe was playing real well. Shaquille obviously starts. It was just this dominant, incredible role.

We'll talk about winning almost unanimous MVP. He's the only player still to this point that I've covered where I could watch the first three series and go, they're going to win because this team can't stop Shaquil. Like that was just right in, 38 and 17. Like that's going to happen. You couldn't do that for every game. You certainly couldn't do it against Portland.

which we can talk about later. But again, including Indiana and their frigging vinals. Like there were just some games that Shikil was not to lose because of who he was because Rick Smith wasn't going to stop him because whoever else down the line, Chris Dudley wasn't going to stop him.

And you knew it. Period. End of story. I don't know that I don't know. Howard, Logan, you cover anyone like you three possessions down, three buckets, three, you know, three jump hooks, that's over, one miss. He rebounds.

throws it back down for putback. Game is over. I've covered football players like that. Reggie White was like that. Maybe Bo Jackson in this short period. Like, you can just look at five plays and that's it. I don't know that I've ever covered another NBA player. And it was just that season, I think, for Jack.

So the thing that's so interesting about this MVP season from Shaquille O'Neal was he always had the numbers, right? He didn't always have the drive during the regular season to, work on his craft or, you know, stay in tip top shape, especially in the off season. That was much to Kobe's chagrin. And that's going to get to the divide that we're going to talk about in this series. But what was different about this particular Shaquille O'Neal during this particular season, right? And I think the answer lies in the fact that Phil was in his head. He told him to lose, he had to lose, I think, 30 pounds over the summer, right? He didn't go out as much. Which I don't. Which I

I don't think he did, which I don't think he did, by the way. Okay. But he had to do that. And then there's another thing that's going into that season. You mentioned the 11 and 4 start the Lakers had to start this season while Kobe was out with a broken hand. It kind of eased this Lakers team in a lot of ways, right, where they don't have to deal with the pressure of the Kobe and Shaq thing. Kobe can kind of learn the team dynamics around the triangle. He came into the season already knowing what the triangle was, right? There's a famous anecdote in the biography called Showboat, Kobe Bryant biography, where he goes and he says in preseason, he says, how do you guys not know the triangle?

How did you not watch T&T all last season? The Bulls were on TV all season, so he knew the triangle. But there was a, you know, there was the Kobe hubris that came along with him, his arrogance and all of these things. So you have that smooth sailing approach going into 11 and 4. They play Golden State. They beat Golden State on December 1st, and they're kind of just off to the wrong. races from there. But there is a bit of a dynamic during the MVP season of Shaq just being

everywhere. Howard, what was the biggest difference that you saw from Shaquille O'Neal from when you first started on the beat in 1997 to what this particular version was in the 99, 2000 season? So the first thing that happens, of course, is because Kobe's not playing to start the season or misses that full month, the Lakers were able to think to settle into the triangle and the pecking order sooner. There was a lot of talk that in that first month or so that Kobe's benefiting from getting to watch and see how well they play off of Shaq

and operate off of Shaq. Shack had also been hurt. Really important part of this. Like Shaq's first couple of years in L.A., he had the knee the first year. He had the abdominal strain that had dogged him, I think, during that lockout season in 99. That's when Alex McKekney comes along. So Shaq's finally, it's not

just that he's in shape. He's healthy. So the things that we saw him do that MVP season were the things you always saw in Shaq. Biggest, baddest, strongest MFer on the court and nobody can guard him one-on-one. Just ask him on the nights that he would struggle if he did or be less efficient. He would immediately point out to us how many guys were guarding me. He was being double-team, triple-teamed. No one was holding him up one-on-one. There were some guys who were strong enough to, but he put those guys in the basket too. So I just think that it was a culmination of Shaq being healthy,

uh, Shaq being super motivated, being in shape, for sure, and also being established within the triangle offense, which, you know, Phil Jackson wanted that ball to go inside out.

That was his view or his vision of basketball. Um, spacing, offense starts inside. And if Shaq's doubled, he'll kick it out. And then, you know, you pull the defenders off of him and you kick it right back to him. You reset or you go to the, you know,

it around to the weak side and then put them on the other on the other block. So it was just, it was everything. And I do think the triangle offense and Phil Jackson believing in going inside first and in feeding Shaq and believing in Shaq as the clear number one option, the most effective option, all fit into him becoming MVP that season. And he's also talked about the pecking order of Phil Jackson in that training camp says the ball is going into Shaq. there was a particular pecking order of what this was going to be.

Tim, how was Kobe dealing with that part of it, right? Because he's having to both bring his game down at 21 years old to accommodate Shaq. And there's one thing to say that when Kurt Rambas is your coach, one thing to say that when Dale Harris is your coach. But now the Phil is your coach, there's no firing Phil. How is he dealing with this coming back where he's trying to get his own shot but also has to cater to Shaq? because there is a very clear pecking order at this particular point. Yeah, we've got to remember put this in context. He's not Kobe quite yet.

He's getting there. And again, we can talk about like what happened in the finals. But it wasn't like, oh, my God, Kobe has throttle back. Like he was throttling up, right, coming up, you know, in his third season at that point. But it wasn't like he was scoring 30 a game. It wasn't like he was an MVP. It wasn't like he was, like, even his All-Star burst, people are like, you know, this guy's not even starting.

And he makes the All-Star team. Yeah, he had to make some concessions. I think the broken hands certainly was a, you know, call it a accidental fortuitous moment. Again, it started the season. Look, we're going to succeed like this. But I think he got it. I think Phil was, I think Phil one point that season told me that, you know,

Kobe's a wild horse. I just got to figure out how, you know, not to rain him in too much, but rain him in a little bit. She kills the guy who needs to feed. He's the guy who needs, he's much more, you know, know, I guess needy would be a weird word to say, but a little, like he needs to feel necessary. Like that's Shaquille. And he was certainly set up to do that, to be the center of everything. And Kobe could be, you know, I think at the time, Phil kind of envisioned Kobe to be like Michael at the end of shocklock.

If it's not there early, it doesn't work, we get it. And that's when the triangle goes out the window, because sometimes Michael did that too. Just get it to me, five seconds. of the shot clock, I'll figure out something. And I think that was sort of Kobe's role. I think it developed into more than that. But I think, because Phil could say, this is kind of like a Michael role. I think that's how, you know, like every time I think producer used to say, if I wanted Kirk Cobain to do something he didn't want to do, I said, this is what John Lennon used to do. Well, Kobe, this is what Phil. Phil would tell him, this is what Michael used to do. Okay, that makes sense. It's what Michael used to do with the understanding that into the future that was going to be a large

role. And that became the greater tension in seasons into the future. One in that season, they had not won it yet. Nobody's got a ring they can point you except for one guy, Phil Jackson. So I just think it was easier. Again, it's not Kobe to Kobe, the one MVP or led the league and score. That's not who this was. This was 21 year old, 22 year old, whatever his age at that point was, I think it's 21 year old Kobe, where things were still uncertain, right? Nothing had been filled out about his career. Shaquille was the larger figure. Shaquille in the near future would break down and not work hard and all the things that pissed off Kobe.

But that hadn't really happened yet. So I don't think it was a big pressure. I think it kind of topped out later in that season. But as it was happening, it was Shaquille. It was going to be Shaquil. He was scoring with such efficiency. He was in such a good mood. He was passing the ball.

That was a big deal. He wasn't afraid to shoot free throws. I was another thing that was a big deal for him. It was all just happening for him. And I don't think Kobe was at the point of his career and logically wasn't getting the way with that. He had Phil telling him, you're going to be there, right? You're going to be, this is, don't worry about it.

At this point, I think Michael was probably, you know, still North Carolina, you know, and so like this is still your future is still there for you. This ain't going to prevent it. Winning is just going to. help you. All right. And up next, we are going to talk about the competition on the beat in Los Angeles covering the Los Angeles Lakers during the 1999-2000 season. I want to talk about something that I found fascinating about the Lakers beat from a media standpoint, the competition part, right? And there's a famous picture. I will use this picture to illustrate it on the screen. You can put it right there,

Victoria of you, Tim Howard Beck, Bill Plasky, J.A. Adon Day, and Brad Turner the legend. And you have so many different types of beat writers, right? You got Brad Turner, who is coming from, I believe he was in Riverside at that point, right, covering the Lakers. And you have Tim Calacami, Scott Howard Cooper, you have Tim Brown, you have Mark Hessler, right? And that's a that's the institution of the Times, right? And then you have the Daily News, Howard Beck, who is trying, who's probably, at least in terms of circulation, is probably like number two on that list, right? But they're still trying to, everybody's trying to compete with the establishment of the Times.

But, like, how is that for you two who are Howard's on the Daily News, Tim's on the Times, like, how to being on a certain paper instruct your coverage? And then also, like, when you're seeing the Brad Turner, who ends up being a legend on that beat from Riverside trying to come up into the folder and you have Plasky, like, Like, can you, Howard, can you tell me how, from your standpoint, how are you approaching this beat and it's if you can go right after? I wonder if this dynamic still exists to the same degree. But, you know, when it was primarily a newspaper ecosystem, there's a pecking order to some extent, right? The LA Times was the big bad, right?

Like, they were the biggest kid on the block by far. They were a national paper. And if you're at the LA Daily News or the Riverside Press Enterprise or even the Orange County Register, which had a big circulation, you do. get to know each other's kind of styles in a reporting scrum in an interview scrum. The way we wrote about the team, I think, varied too, which was really interesting. But in terms of being at like the smaller paper, smaller relative to the LA Times, look, I knew that the first of all, Tim's, Tim's an incredible kick-ass reporter. So I'm already fighting up a battle at times.

But also they had Adande and Plashky and Mark Heisler and Steve Springer, who covered the Lakers back in the Showtime era who would jump in sometimes. and just this army of reporters. And I was often a one-man band. And even when we threw, you know, everybody in the mix for the finals, we would be outnumbered by probably three to one by L.A. Times staffers at the same event.

So you're feeling that a little bit, right? We're all competitive. And so you're feeling a little bit of that underdog thing, which meant that when I did beat them on a story, or if I wrote it better that day, that was something I always judged myself on too. Like, you know, did I write it better? Nope, nope, Tim's lead was better than mine today.

And then occasionally like, I get it. And I'm like, cool. I think I had the better angle today. Like you do that. And I think it's part of what makes you sharp. And it's also part of the fun of it, part of the stress of it. But definitely, I'm always, I was always cognizant for those seven years at the LA Daily News that we had fewer bodies, a much smaller budget. And, you know, that the LA Times had a lot of kick ass reporters.

And so you never forget that. I also do think. And Tim may disagree with me, but I'll just. say it. Like, I think there were times when, whether it's the Lakers or Kobe and Arne or whoever, there were times when they were definitely going to cater to the Times more because the Times was the more prestigious paper. And I bring that up to say, like, that's the reality of our business. That might be ESPN now, probably is ESPN now. It's natural for players, coaches, teams, leagues to sometimes cater, it doesn't mean it's unearned, but to cater sometimes to the biggest,

you know, biggest kid on the block. And I got the flip side of that. when I moved from L.A. to New York to work for the New York Times, and I got to, like, wield that. And I definitely think there were, and I know this for a fact, there were people who called me back much faster or called me back, period, when it was Howard Beck from the New York Times than it was Howard Beck from the LADL News. So I think that's a basic reality of it. I don't know if you would disagree with any of that, Sam. It's not wrong, but one thing I definitely had on my mind throughout my time at the L.A. Times was that, you know, I started the Philadelphia Daily News, which was a second paper in Philadelphia, but aggressive and aggressive.

You wanted that edge. You want to take on those slow poke, fat cat, inquire, not that it always was like that, but that was in your head. So when I was at the LA Times, like, I'm going to take advantage of this. Like I'm, I have an advantage. I have Bill Plashy with me too. I have whatever. And I'm going to press it.

And I'm going to keep going. And if Howard knows me, I don't lack for pressing. I don't lack for trying to take advantage of the, things trying to get the edge and then keep going with it. There's two things with that, though. Like, you have that and you absolutely know that Jerry cares about what's in the L.A. Times, and Jerry Bust absolutely did. The other advantage I had is I knew Jerry Buss from boxing.

So I have a relationship with Jerry Buss. So, you know, there's all these elements that you take into everything. But the other thing, though, is they freaking read everything you wrote. So, like, you can't get away with a little one-liner, a little stray thing. And, you know, there were certainly moments when it was uncomfortable because something that was mentioned in the L.A. Times, maybe not even something that I wrote was getting called up. And I was getting, I was hearing about it. And that was one thing about the lake. And that might not. What was the biggest call you got, Calabby? What was the call? Well, again, this is a little sensitive, but I'll say it. I mean, when Kobe got engaged and Vanessa was young, I wasn't going to put her name in the paper. wasn't. And I didn't, you know, I had not approval for that. And then Newside got the name. And my name was on the story. And they just inserted Vanessa's name in there. And Kobe went, I don't know if

remember this, Howard. Kobe went crazy about that. And I understood. But there's only so much you can say, it's like, it's my name's on it, but I didn't do it. Like, I did not do it. And an editor, I will never forgive just said, I said, you know, you got to run that past me. You can't just put her name in there. And he just said, oh, this is what we do. This is what we do. It's like, you haven't broken a freaking story in your entire life. I have. Don't tell me how to do this. And I will never speak to this person again. And Kobe was like iced in the Howard's experience. Kobe was iced to me for like two days. I didn't get a call from him. I got a call from representatives. I got a certainly got a call from John Black. It's like, you are persona non grata. You are dead to

Kobe right now. He might get over it, but he's not over it now. And that was rough. And I think that was that the first championship? It had to be because I only covered the first championship season. And I got it. I totally understood it. It was that really awkward thing where I can't kill my paper to Kobe. Because I did talk to him and he like wanted nothing to do with it. But it's like it wasn't me. It wasn't the paper though. Like I can't just completely crap on my paper, although maybe I would have been willing to, but he was, like, that was as mad as he could possibly be over something. He was 18 at the time, 19, how old he was 20, maybe he was 20, but it was like, I still feel it because it was that angry. And I felt it ripple through the entire organization. They understood it,

but they also understood how Mad Kobe was. And this was family stuff. Yeah. This wasn't basketball stuff. Uh, and that man, I will, that was, uh, that was as, angry as any player has ever been at me. And he didn't even really say a word to me. It was just how angry we all understood him to be. So, yeah, and I know, Phil I got to be pretty close with. And I had a couple sit downs with Phil. One during the finals where I asked him on the record about his relationship with Jeannie Bus. That was like, that was negotiated. Like, I am going to ask you about Jeannie Bus if we sit down and he finally agreed to do it. I remember is like Todd Musberg. He was like, say, Phil does that.

doesn't understand what the angle is for him. What, what is his angle? Like, what coach thinks about that media wise? What's my angle? What's my angle with this? They do now, but they definitely didn't do it back then. They do not then. You know, and some of them still don't. But Steve does. But it was like a negotiated, well, it's going to come out. You just put in your terms. I'm not going to be the whole. It's not going to be the whole thing. It's going to be part. It was one of those conversations. But you definitely understood that Phil is looking at things through an angle. And you can't, you know, you kind of scramble to try to keep your side through it. Wait, how wild is it?

Can we just do a quick detour? How wild is it that the head coach of the team is beginning to date the owner's daughter? And how wild was that? How did you guys get? Whose previous boyfriend was Dennis Rodman. Like that was this wild, you know, panorama of this. If you know, the Lakers, it's not as surprising. I saw it begin.

Like, I almost think I literally, like, during some practice, There's Jeannie and Phil sitting up. Like there's like this second level at Staples back then. And they were talking together. And you could tell there was a spark. I don't know if that was the absolute start of it. Well, I'm going, okay. What time of year is this?

What time of year is this? This is like before the season starting or just as the season is starting. Jerry West was very bothered by this. That Jeannie is going to start dating Phil and the Phil is going to get more and more power. And then Phil is going to want to take over the team. Like he was very, very outright about this off the record, Jerry being, you know, that's, that was my guy. Like, Jerry was my guy. Like, literally was like, I would get yelled at, but I would get information.

This was just something that happened. And he was very concerned about the, that Phil getting into the bus family. Because there was that obviously, we discussed it a little bit, the bus family attention with Jerry. Jerry never felt he got enough credit or the contract. And then he finally got the big contract. And then he left before that contract ever started, which was. was just this very Jerry West element to this. But no, the Phil Jeannie thing, I think, developed as the season was getting going.

And they became a very, you know, important, significant thing later in the season. Everybody kind of knew it. He'll also like to have an executive he could blame things on, though. Like, he very much liked that. Like, and I think, you know, would have done that at some point with Jerry, you know. This is like he liked to have that. We're rallying against the. this person and it happened to be an executive for the team, all the better. But it was a looming

thing over everything. Jeannie wasn't running the team, right? She'd be later, but not then. Everyone kind of knew she probably would end up running the team. You didn't know. So there's some context of that too. But it was happening. People knew about it. People talked about it. They weren't really hiding it. It seemed like this was making feel a very happy person. And if he's a happy person, It feels like that would bring the good vibes to the team. But there's another interesting thing that you said, Kawakami, about the Jerry West of it all, right? And their clash, which Jerry Buss was fine with it. He was all good.

It was the Laker way in Jerry Buss's mind. But Jerry West is really just kind of opens a wound again that he has with Phil Jackson. They've had a longstanding beef in, you know, going back to their playing days, right? I believe that Phil Jackson caught him with a bow. Yeah. Caught him with a bow in one of their games back in the day. And he did not want Phil Jackson, but Jerry Buss, as you alluded to earlier, just was like, no, override it.

We need Phil Jackson on this team. So let's go into the playoffs. Playoffs, the first round they play the Sacramento Kings, winning five games, which was kind of a precursor of things to come, right? The Kings push him to the brink, and Chris Weber kind of falters down the stretch of those games. And then we go into the Phoenix series, where midway through that, Shaquille O'Neal was presented with his loan regular season MVP award before the game on May 15, 2000. This is after he averaged 29 points per game, 13 rebounds and shot 57% from the field.

When did you see him for the first time after this boat happens? And like, what is he doing? Definitely was that the presser. I don't remember. Howard, do you remember? I don't think he had no response. I don't think we saw him until the presser. But, you know, that was when he first started rolling out. I think that was the first day he did

from here on. I want to be known as the big Aristotle, right? And it was that whole season he was doing big this, big that. I think you compiled the whole list for a book that you did on the LA Times imprint of all of his of all of his nicknames he invented.

But I think he was truly moved. Like, you know, whatever bitterness he had about not being unanimous, it was a huge deal for him. This meant a lot, right? Like, they didn't have the championship. yet. He'd been, you know, he was already on the NBA 50th anniversary team. He was already in every commercial on earth. He was a celebrity. He was larger than life physically,

figuratively. Been a movie. He'd been a movie. He'd done all these other things and he was, you know, definitely one of the greatest players in the NBA. But he didn't have the ring yet, and he didn't have an MVP trophy yet. And he'd been hurt for some significant portions of his of his Laker time until then. And, you know, he wins MVP. before he wins the championship. So I just think that level of, of, you know, just accomplishment was hugely important to him. And I, you know, he has, there's so much braggadocio and just, you know, the way he projects himself that it's, it's harder to know.

It's not like a Kevin Durant kind of getting a little choked up or something, right? Like Shaq was not going to do this in front of us at that time. but I think it meant a lot to him. And thus they had, they had, they had, they still had to finish it off. Like they, this is just early in the playoffs. They can't be getting too out of control here. You still, they had a journey to make.

You know, then we'll get into Portland. They knew the trail players were going to be a bastard to play. Like, they knew it. They had battled with them. They knew how tough it was to play them. My line I kept using is the, you know, the Lakers play a wonderful version of the triangle offense, but the trail players was playing an almost better version of the triangle defense.

They just knew where the ball was going to go. They had Scotty Pippin. They had all, you know, Rashid Wallace, like the names of that team, that left shrimp. Like, Arvita Sabon, it's unbelievable how many players they had on that team. Damon Stottemeyer, Brian Grant, I'm missing so many others. It was something the Lakers knew was going to be a big deal. maybe they underestimated the kinks because that was a passionate series that was like that was those two games that was back of the old arco

were as close to violence i've ever been in and that was the precursor that was a precursor to oh two bell yeah exactly like the energy was coming and that was that was white chocolate that was all that of this stuff but uh they knew what was coming with the trailblazers they knew that was going to be a difficult series they've been battling with the trailblazers even in this incredible season for the top of the West to go in and to win the home court advantage, which they 100% needed to finish off that series. So the MVP was great.

Everybody was understandable what it meant, but it's just in the middle of this thing, and they still had a lot to go. Yeah. So bring up the Portland Trailways, there's a great segue going into this because it really exemplifies how much those Chicago Bulls were really, like,

over this 1999-20 season because, you know, before the season, Phil is just trying to get all of his guys, right? Now, he succeeded in getting Ron Harper and John Sally onto the roster. But he also, like, he made a call to Jordan. Like, hey, you might want to, do you want to come here? He also tried to trade for Scotty Pippen. I believe the deal was on the table is Robert Ory and Glenn Rice to Houston for Scottie Pippen. Instead, he goes to the Portland Trailblazers after the Lakers.

end up saying, nah, we actually, Phil gets overruled. And so that is all looming over this particular series. It was similar in a lot of cases to me and Tim will know this firsthand, but it was similar in a lot of ways to the Rockets and the Warriors all season long. You feel like these two teams are probably going to go neck and neck and neck to each other. And they're going to end up playing each other. And this is going to be a version of the NBA finals, right? what is Howard what is the the attitude right now of this particular

Lakers team going into this conference final so the funny thing about the 99-2000 season period is that they weren't supposed to be this good they weren't supposed to be 67 wins and going to the finals you know who said they weren't supposed to Phil Jackson from day one of training camp back in Santa Barbara was like the triangle takes time it's going to be a year or two before we're really hitting on all cylinders um I don't expect you we're going to to fix this whole thing overnight or become, you know, like he was downplaying the whole thing. Maybe for manipulative purposes, maybe the truth. But I do think the consensus before the season was they weren't the favorites.

The Spurs were the defending champs. I wrote about some of this a couple of years back for when I was at Bleacher Report. And so just to, I cut and pasted real quick, as I picked the Spurs to win the championship, to repeat. Vegas favored the Spurs. A lot of newspapers were picking the Spurs. Others were picking the Blazers, the team we're about to talk about to make the finals. The LA Times, Tim Kawakami's paper in their preseason rankings, had the Lakers fifth in the Western Conference. Wow.

That wasn't me. That wasn't me. Because the Lakers, there was questions about their maturity, about their chemistry, of course, with Shaq and Kobe. Also the supporting cast. So let's get to the Blazers here in this series that we're about to talk about. back in the day in newspapers we did this thing every newspaper did it playoff series is coming you put the starting five side by side and you put a check mark by who wins the matchup and then you do the coach and you do the bench and maybe some intangibles lakers check check check check every other position check uh bench blazers check over mike dunleavy senior sorry mike dunley maybe, intangibles, who knows. But the Lakers would always lose these on-paper battles.

Oh, yeah, they've got Shaq and Kobe, but everybody, Laker fans every year, I swear, even after they won the first championship, they were always ready to trade Robert Ori and Derek Fisher. Robert Rory's too small to guard Carl Malone and Chris Weber or Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan and all the other big boys. He can't handle it. He's a converted small forward. What are we doing with Robert Rory?

Derek Fisher's too slow to guard Damon Stoutemeyer of the Portland Trail Blazers or any other number of quick guards. The Lakers were always knocked for the supporting cast. And in fact, as we know in retrospect, one of their greatest strengths was that supporting cast. But the Blazers had two starting fives. That was the theme of their team that year. They had literally 10 guys who you could, you know, not exactly the same level, but they had their entire bench were guys who could start for another team. And so they were just super deep. And, you know, it's Scotty and it's Rashid Wallace, Steve Smith, Detliff Shramp,

a very young Germain O'Neill, Bonzie Wells, Damon Stad Amier, like just super to end, an Arvita Sabonis, who was one of the few guys in the league who could actually stand up to Shaq physically and had the height and also had a three point shot to try to pull shack away from the basket. So I didn't go to the depth of looking up how many people picked the Blazers to beat the Lakers in that series, but I'm betting you it was probably more than half, despite the fact that the Lakers had won 67 games. These teams tied throughout the season. They'd won five games each. I can't remember why they'd played 10. Oh, no, no, no. 10 games was the combination of the regular

season and the six games, excuse me, of the conference finals. So by the time they get to game seven, seven, seven, seven, seven. Yeah, by something to game seven of the conference finals, they've won five games each regular season and playoffs. Like, they were just that close. The Blazers were really freaking good. And, you know, in an alternate timeline, absolutely, in multiple alternate timelines since we now live in an age when we talk about multiverses. And a lot of those multiverses, the Blazers win that series. I'll tell the stories. It's a famous story. Howard Beck tells it too, but you know who was advising the Portland Trail Blazers who had been hired by them like in February of March. Del Harris had been named as an advisor. And it was an interesting thing.

We knew this is going to be a class. They're fighting for the number one seed. She Shaquille was mad at me, had been pouting through this wintertime, the typical Shaquille, like not talking. And then Del Harris, like we found out, so I asked Shaquille in the Lake of Logger Room before game, what do you think about Del Harris being hired as an analyst or a strategist for the Portland Trailblazers? That's when Shaquille looked at me and said, Tim asked a good question. Tim asked a good, you asked a good question.

And that's when he lowers himself, grabs me. picks me up and twirles me around the locker room like is the the most un like controlled experience of my life. I had no idea what was happening. I can't see. I can't hear. I can't breathe. Literally you can't. I wish I was there to see that man. That will never happen. I don't know what other player did that now. He put me down and I like I like I'm just stunned. Howard was there and I was like I think I said this. I know I thought this like Shaquille if that's you liking me. me, I'd rather you not like me. So going into this series, right?

The Lakers go up 3-1, seems to be dominating the series. And then they gave up a game six, and then it sets up the game seven that we all know, right? Where the Blazers go up, about 20 points going into the fourth quarter. And there's a lot of tension going on in Staples Center, right? All the ghosts and all the demons that we have been talking about, to kind of come into the fold right here, right, where guys are getting a little tight. Like, is this going to happen again? Are we doomed?

We got Phil Jackson into the fold. We got everything working. We got Shaq being an MVP season. And you kind of have these types of games whenever you go in the bowels of NBA history where it's the biggest test comes at this particular time, no matter how much playoffs you, playoff success that you get or how much regular season you get. When you are a new team to this stage, you have an overcome. come, there's jitters that come around. And then the Lakers go on a bit of a huge run. They

outscore the Blazers 31 to 13 in the fourth quarter of that game. And you have everything coming together, everything that the Lakers have been wanting to happen, right? They want Kobe to play under control. They want a defense to shut down a team. They have all, and then they want their role players to play really, really well. And you see that in this particular frame where Barnes saw hits a three that just randomly banks in, right? That's the end of the third quarter. Oh, end of the third quarter. Exactly. He banks in a three-pointer, right? And then all of a sudden, the the blazers are up 15. And then you start seeing shots start to go in. You start to see a block at one end by Kobe, right? Then you see him start to play under control. Hits a huge shot over

Scotty Pippen, who kind of had been his nemesis growing up in this league, right? He's always, you know, Scotty Pippen wasn't there to replace Kobe when he was in trade rumors. The goal wasn't to replace Kobe, but it was to kind of show Kobe the ropes. And Kobe was like, I don't need that. I do not need that. So it all culminates within 54 seconds left in the game where Scottie Pippen meets Kobe Bryant. they're going to duel

and Kobe has one of the best crossovers I have ever seen and then out of nowhere you think that Kobe's just going to go in for a dunk and then he sees Shaq coming out of nowhere and he just throws the ball as high as he can and Shaq dunks it.

That is what I remember as a child watching this on tape but you guys were there can you, I will go with, I'm going to go with Howard first because he tells the story so great I want to get Kawakami's commentary but tell me what it was like seeing the iconic play

between Kobe and Shaq, the, the alley-up of all alle-ups, and what was that like in the Staples Center? What were you at? Who was next to you? What was going on? So, you know, I wrote like many, many thousands of words about that play, about what we now call the lob and about that series and about everything that came with it for Bleach Report, like five years ago,

six years ago now, my gosh. I remembered that play. So when you see the replays, there's a couple different angles, but one of them is from behind Kobe as he's crossing over, Scotty. And it looks from that angle like Kobe's going up for a jumper. And that's the angle that we had on the baseline.

The beat riders at that time sat on the baseline, on the opposite side from the Laker bench. Right? And so I'm looking at Kobe's back. I thought he was going up for a shot. I did not see Shaq bound, you know, bounding down the baseline for what ends up being the alleyup dunk. It's almost like he came in from out of, out of, you know, off camera for me, because I was so

focused on Kobe. And years later, 20 years later, when I'm reporting for this, this feature to do an oral history of the lob, I was like, is my memory faulty on this or did I, was, was I just like blind about this? So I asked a bunch of the, the guys who played for the Blazers and a bunch of the players, for the Lakers. I'm like, guys, what did you think

what Kobe went up? And at least half of them thought he was going up more than half, I think it was, thought he was going for a jump shot also because that was Kobe,

right? Kobe's going to take it himself. And I don't know at what point Kobe made the decision. Unfortunately, you know, that's also the year that Kobe died. I don't get the chance to ask him about this for that story.

And I don't know if he's ever talked about that particular moment about whether he was going to shoot until he saw Shaq or at what point he knew he had the lob there. But it's almost like, it came out of nowhere.

And I think that was the way the whole arena felt because there was just like this, okay, Kobe's crossing over Scotty. They're now, they're up four points, I think, at the time. They've already wiped out the whole 15 point deficit in the fourth. The ball goes up and suddenly, again, feeling like out of nowhere, Shaq comes in and just like, and it's a little bit behind him, too, the lob, not perfect. Just boom, bangs that thing through. The place fucking explodes as loud as I've ever heard in arena anywhere.

Whatever you want to say about, you know, oh, L.A. fans, Hollywood, this, that, that place freaking exploded. It was incredible. It was like a sonic boom. And then Shaq comes running back down the court with his eyes bugging out, pointing up into the stands, do his family, doing that whole thing. It was incredible. It was, it was just, it's funny because of the faultiness of memory. You think that, like, oh, that must have been the game winning basket or that must have been the one that put them finally ahead after wiping out the, no, they were already up. The Blazers were crackling, you know, just disintegrating before our eyes. And that was the, final dagger. And it was, it became the most symbolic, uh, moment of that entire run bigger than

anything that actually happens in the finals that come after it. It's, you know, really when we think about that first championship, I think the first thing we think about is not beating the Pacers. It's beating the Blazers and it's about that lob. And like, that was the moment symbolically. And I think even spiritually, if I can go that far. And again, in the story that I did six years ago, a lot of Lakers talked about it that way. Rick Fox, Robert Ory, Derek Fisher, they all talked about it as like, that's the moment. That's when we came together.

That's when we knew what was possible. And that launches the dynasty. Where were you, Tim? Where were you in the media section? Yeah, sitting next to Howard, that's the baseline thing opposite. So we're looking down, right? We're looking across the court.

And it's Kobe and Kobe's going to take a shot. And what he just looked like he just, what was he doing? Like, you didn't know why he did that. Like, he just seemed like he threw the ball in the air. Like da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-d-t's Kobe. The ball goes up in the air, and then you just see the finish of it. You see the Shaquille arm go up. Somebody's arm. Like, I just saw somebody's arm goes up. Is that Rashid? Who is that? Is Shaquille? And the ball goes down.

And as Howard said, it's detonation of staple. One thing about Staples, it's not a really loud arena. But when they're nervous, it's really loud. It's so many people in there. And even the people in the suites, maybe they were, you know, they're into it too. And that was like the floor starts bouncing. The whole thing is like, this is happening. This is happening. But I'll, I'll just talk about some of the other things going into. That was a day game. This is a weird thing. That was a day game. It wasn't a night game. So it was like this weird, like less than 48 hours after game six. You're traveling back. Everyone's worn down. You're playing a day game. Shaquille did not tend to play great in day games, if you remember correctly.

there was a real weird energy. Can they just defend themselves? The other thing I remember is thinking, Phil Jackson doesn't lose these series. Like this is in my head. I think the same thing about Steve Kerr. Now, Steve Kerr has since lost some series, but there's just certain guys you don't think they're going to lose a series.

In my head is how, what's Phil Jackson going to be like on a losing podium? I don't know what that's, I don't think that's going to happen. Shaw throws in that bang shot. You're like, okay, this, this is possible. Then they just squeeze. and they squeeze and they squeeze, you know, Trailblazers who just did not have that go-to score. They did not have that guy can go get his own.

The Lakers had two of them. And I just think that's what the lesson I've always taken from that is when it comes down to that moment, which is that's a historical moment, right? Maybe we're going to get into this later. That's an either or moment. That is a threshold moment for Shaquille and Kobe, for this Trailblazers team, which we all thought was just as good as the Lakers. Home court became the huge thing.

and when it comes down to that, who's going to dig out points and who's going to play the best defense. And the Kobe to Shaquil thing is important because it's Kobe throwing it to Shaquille. That's what's the thing, right? That's it. After all this ball hogging, I trust you. The guy who shot the Arabol to end the Utah series,

which again, I respected Kobe for that because no one else wanted to take, Shaq didn't want to take that shot. Kobe took that shot. won a great shot. I had no problem with him doing it. This is the guy, though, who wants to win every game himself, right? We know that about him. We know that, you know, the wild horse, the Phil Jackson, just trying to rein him in a little bit, making the pass when everybody thought he was going to shoot the ball and throwing it to Shaquille, who was in the right place and knew that he could run there and get the pass from Kobe. That was, other than just the points, it was the symbolism of what this

connection could possibly be and what it had to be to beat the trailblazers. So we all felt it. We 100% felt it. I wrote the next day was like, this is when the NBA finals feels like summer school. Oh, they're going to play the Pacers now? Who the fuck cares? It was a little harder than that. And we know, you know, there were some injuries, whatever. But after that, after the regular season, that ridiculous King series, which was amazing to write about and experience, the Sun series wasn't that big idea.

That was Phil Jackson after their one loss coming out and you know, happy Mother's Day to all you mothers out there. Still, still an incredible film moment. And then the Trailblazers series, like the Pacer's thing,

it felt like nothing. It felt like it was going to be, like a Mediterranean cruise because it just wasn't going to be the same. The closest thing you can get to a Mediterranean cruise in Indiana. Yeah, very close. Very good, very good. But the pent-up stuff was released by the Kobe Lobb to Shaquille.

The anxiety, the historical weight of everything because they were going to get through Indiana. They just were going to. Didn't know exactly how. But I mean, I remember the interviews. I maybe, how are you too? Like, the conversations I was having were like retrospective pieces almost. It wasn't like, oh, my God, what are you going to do against the Pacers? It was, what's going to happen? and next and that and that sit down with Phil where he like said we're going to trade Glenn Rice you can't write that until after but we're going to trade Glenn Rice this is like game four you know before game four of the NBA finals but that's the spirit of where they were they were they were just that good and they can get through the trailblazers which was fucking hard

they were going to be everybody knew that whoever won the Western Conference Finals that year was winning the championship I there was no disagreement about that we've glossed the fact that the Lakers, in addition to having been up 3-1 in that series, then losing the next two to force that game seven back at Staples Center, this is what they did. They were always playing with their food. They were dramatic beyond belief and beyond the, you know, the tolerance of a lot of their fans. Like they just, they were flirting with disaster a lot. Like, that was back when it was a best of five first round and they needed a fifth game to beat the Kings. They were up to two-oh. the Kings won the next two at home and it was suddenly a game five where like I mean they blew them out in that game but for a moment it was like oh shit are the are the Lakers going to go from 67 wins in the top seed in the west to losing to the eighth seated kings in the first round like that was on the table for a minute they go up three on the suns it ends in a gentleman sweep but to Tim's point yeah they get blown out in game four and Phil Jackson one of the rare times he didn't take questions just walks out and says you know well that that game was whatever blah blah blah blah

and so I have nothing to say except happy Mother's Day to all you mothers. And yes, he meant that both ways. No question. And we know it. That was the game where Phil didn't even talk to him at halftime, right? I think so. He just stayed outside the locker room during the half time.

He was so pissed off. But this was like they, you know, they were dominant, but they were also kind of, you know, just irresponsible, inconsistent. Lapses. Just it happened. So, you know, I always say,

they're this close to not winning it in year one of the three Pete and they were this close because it was game seven of course on the road in Sacramento in 2002. Like either of those could have gone the other way and instead of a three Pete, it's one championship and or they don't get there in the first place because if you don't win it the first time in 2000, who knows?

One of the other things we have not covered, but real quick, because we are sports writers working for newspapers in the year 2000 on deadline. We're all writing because they're down 15 with 1028 to go in the fourth quarter of game seven. and we're all writing the season obituary. We're all like, well, 67 win season goes for not kind of stuff.

And then you're just, oh, wait, oh shit. Oh, wait. Oh, oh. Oh, lob. Boom. And like, now you're writing Lakers win going to the finals for the first time with Kobe and Shaq. And, you know, everything changes in the course of about, you know, 10 minutes of real time.

Just don't forget that Brian Shaw Bank shot. Brian Shaw, Bank shot was freaking huge. It really, it just like, oh, no, oh, no. Okay. Also, they got a shot. If anybody doubts it, these are the quotes I got several years ago.

Shack said of that Blazers team, quote, they were the toughest team and they were the only team that wasn't scared of us. And Robert Orie for that story, said, it's probably the best team

I've ever faced playing basketball, period. And obviously Rob's won a lot of championships. So, like, they were that tough. That Blazers team does not get its due. So going into the NBA finals, they're playing against Reggie Miller,

they're playing against the, Reggie Miller, who had gone through so many playoff disappointments and didn't get to the final. finals throughout the 90s. And they go and they're playing against the Davis brothers and then they're also playing against Rick Smiths.

But by and large, you kind of knew what was going to happen. But it doesn't mean there isn't any drama, right? Lakers take the first game, beat the crap out of the Pacers. And then the second game, Kobe Bryant sprains his ankle when Jalen Rose steps underneath it. And then we'll get to that ankle injury in two games later. But the series is two one. and the Lakers still seem to be very firmly in control of this series.

This paints the picture and takes us into Game 4 where Kobe misses one game and he's returning in a game 4. It's a really ugly game. Yeah, they lose game. Yeah, they lose Game 3, Kobe's out. Yeah, they lose game three, Kobe's out. Kobe comes back for Game 4. Still trying to work off the rest of that ankle doesn't really get going until the fourth

quarter. And then, like you guys say, Shaq Fowles out. in the overtime, very early in the overtime series, the famous story. Kobe says, I got you, Big fella. And then he rattles off 28. But he has eight points in that final overtime. It's an incredible, just jumpers.

Everything, it was one of those things. It was similar to LeBron in game six of the 2013 finals, where it was like all of your deficiencies, I'm going to show you that I can overcome them. He hits the jumpers. He passes. He takes. over the game in a more responsible way.

Everything kind of comes together in that moment, and it leads to the embrace between him and Shaq. And what was it like, Howard, seeing that coming of age in person? And then also, what was it like to see them kind of embrace in that way? Because there was always this tension, but

within that tension, there was always some level of respect. What do you remember about that finish? The embrace I remember is the one where he jumps into his arms after the championship. I don't recall with game four. The thing with game four, was this thing's still hanging in the balance. It's a two one series.

Kobe's already missed one game. He's playing on the bum ankle. And there's no guarantee, you know, at this point, yes, we all thought it was a foregone conclusion that they were going to roll the Pacers. But once Kobe, you know, injures his ankle, everything is now up in the year, potentially. The game goes overtime. If they lose this, it's a two, two series. And yeah, they've got home court and all that.

But like, it could have slipped away from them. Kobe being able to step up at age 22 at that time and take over with Shaq having fouled out was the first real test of his basketball leadership. Forget the voice of his leadership. He wasn't ready for that yet. And he was still too young and Shaq was too big of a figure in that locker room. But Kobe making all the clutch plays, including like the big putback of the Brian Shaw miss, which I think was one of those key baskets in overtime.

Like that was Kobe's real coming out moment. He'd have other big games, playoffs and regular season. He was already a sensation. But what I remember most about that game was the discussion after of it, which was, oh, all those Michael Jordan comparisons, dude just validated them. He just did the thing that he was supposed to do, the thing that Michael does, come up with every big play in a game that could still go either way and on the biggest stage at the biggest time. All that Michael Jordan stuff?

yeah, Kobe's validated. That was what I was writing the next day. I think probably a lot of people were writing the next day. And I do think it helped engender that much more respect and admiration from Shaq. Because, you know, Shaq took it personally when he fouled out. No, he probably was blaming the refs for fouling him out. He probably, you know, complained about at least two of those calls or something. But Shaq fouling out, every time he found, the two things that Shaq was vulnerable on, right?

if he fouls out or if he's missing key free throws and he hates being vulnerable he hates having to ever have this be about him or that it could have been his fault that he could have let anybody down Kobe picking him up that night was absolutely critical for their relationship as well as the championship run as well as Kobe's then still kind of young and forming legacy you know what I don't want to put an incredible like negative not negative but like cynical spin on this but I do think the first time it came into my head and maybe others and maybe Kobe's, maybe not the first time at Kobe's, but it was practical that he might be better and Shaquil. Like he might be more important Shaquille. I don't think he was at that moment. But down the road, if it had to be a pick between

one or the other, I don't think it would have been anybody but Shaqail until that moment. And that moment happens. That putback, I remember, it's like, this kid is going to do whatever it takes. Like there is, this is not going to be anything except for Kobe Bryant, leading the Lakers to win this game. I did not at the time think he was better to kill. I did not at the time think like, oh, you just get rid of that. I'm not saying that. I'm saying the genesis though of what happened the next playoffs, right? When Kobe just utterly annihilates the spurs. Like that was an unbelievable performance. A year later, whatever, this is the beginning when you started to think, if there's,

got a pick between the two, if they do, whenever they do, I'm going to go with Kobe. That's the first time I really started thinking about that. Again, it's in the grander Lakers Industrial Complex Vision, right? Usually you just think about the championship, right? You win a championship. That's enough. But as you're thinking about Kobe at that age, you're thinking about how this plays out, you're thinking about the tension that's been there. Yes, I agree with Howard. Like, if this was a fusion of those two. They understood it, how great they could be. Oh, one was mostly about that, although I think you saw Kobe beginning to push at the edges of that. I'd just say at the beginning of the time I thought about it. And then I asked Kobe about it like I mentioned. I asked Kobe about it the next,

you know, beginning of the next season. He said, yeah, that's when I started thinking that this is the beginning for me. He literally said that. And I think he meant to say it to me. He meant that this was going to be an important, which is another reason why I'm pissed off that I never wrote it. Damn it, San Jose Mercury New. Strikes again. Like, yeah, write this Jameson thing again. Write another Jameson, if you could. How about Eric Dampere?

That this was the start, not that Kobe didn't think these thoughts. He always thought these, right? He had his family telling him you're the greatest player of all time. But that's when it became a practical thing to understand, acknowledge, and think about into the future.

If there's going to be a choice between these two, or if you to go alpha and not alpha, certainly was Alpha Shaquille that season as it had to be and probably was into the next season a little bit. But as this thing was going to change, as these two players were going to move in different directions, that's the first time you really thought, okay, that's fine if you go with Kobe. That's exactly what it's going to happen. And at that point, it was a big deal to think that. Shaquille is like 27, right, near unanimous MVP. Like I said, you just opened up games and you knew he was going to destroy somebody. That wasn't over,

but the thinking that this could change, I think, had really begun. It began just in those plays in that game. And not that Kobe wasn't going to push against it no matter what, but I think that was the proof to him that on that moment, Shaquille couldn't bail him out. She killed was off the floor. What was Derek Fisher going to win that game? You know, was Ron Harper? No, it had to be, had to be Kobe Bryant against a really good team. This is part of the beginning of the larger conversation of the post kind of bloom Lakers into, okay, what's the mature Lakers going to be like? And then what's the post-Shikil Lakers going to be like? Two quotes that stick out to this. One in the LA Times from Sam Perkins, ain't nothing wrong with that man's ankle.

I've been trying to tell you all that. The second one is from Kobe Bryant himself. This is the game that I've been dreaming about, to be honest with you. I dream about it every day. And then two games later, it was a little Jalen Brown energy. It was a little bit. But game six, they wrap it up in Staples Center. They are champions. What do you guys remember about the locker room and just the celebration,

the other chaos that happens? It was weird because it was the first championship in 12 years for L.A. For the Lakers, but it seemed like an eternity by their standards. What was it like? What was the sigh of relief in that locker room afterwards back? That was the first championship I ever covered. So it was the first time I'd been in that locker room. And back then, the NBA would give like a little sticker to put on the credential of a handful of people, the beat writers. And of course, you know, the network gets to go in early. But we got to go in before most of the medium masses. So we got to see the champagne celebration all three of those years that I covered.

And that was really cool to be in there where it was not that crowded yet. And it was just, and by the way, back then, ain't no goggles, ain't no like, uh, uh, whatever, tarps and stuff up. It was just, and it was no beer and there was no sponsorships and there were no signage. Now it's all very staged. But back then it was completely organic. I mean, they wheeled in the champagne. That part is not organic. Somebody had to go buy the stuff and put it on ice.

But it was just a lot of champagne and a lot of people, uh, you know, just dunking on each other and the place just going nuts. Um, I, I, I, The one thing I remember most actually was talking to Kobe. And I think this is by this time he's in the training room, Gary Viti's training room, sitting on one of those tables and a place we're never allowed. But it's post celebration. And I could just walk in there now. And he's sitting there with Vanessa next to him.

And it's the first time I met her. And the quote from Kobe was something to the effect of, I didn't know champagne stung your eyes so much. It was 21. He was 21. Also, not for nothing. You don't normally spray it in your eyes. even if you were of age.

But he's like, I didn't know it stung so much. And so, and he's just sitting there just looking bliss out. Vanessa's sitting there and she's just looking like happy as can be. It was just this really, really nice moment there. There's still those photos you see now of Shaq and Kobe with the trophies sitting. I think it's still on that same table in the training room at the temple center. And I remember that. I remember, yeah, just like there's just, you know, corks and bottles everywhere.

and it's a mess and you leave there smelling like champagne. I don't remember if that was a year where they did cigars. Cigars have become a really big thing too now. So if you cover championship celebration, you usually leave smelling like champagne and cigars. It's kind of gross. What was, Calacami, what was it like going to your car after this? Well, no, I remember writing my story and watching the TV news coverage.

And there are fires in the parking lot. And I'm looking, is that near my car? Is Mike? I'm writing the Lakers' Chief. beached gamer and wondering if my car is going to be there. I think we were advised not to leave right away. I mean, we had to... We'd also... Yeah, we stayed in. Yeah, we stayed in.

Just want to do a quick disclaimer on this one. Just want to do a quick disclaimer. There was no LA live at this point. There's nothing around Staples. This is the beginning of the downtown construction. There's a parking lot. There's a parking lot. And it's just everything going on. So guys, I just want to pick that disclaimer for the audience. Yeah, it's a weird. I always remember the feeling

of writing this very important game story. Obviously, this is the one that's going to go on posters and T-shirts, theoretically. and I might remember it. And there's such, I mean, my car is literally like 20 yards away from where the fires are. Like that's a pretty important thing. Then we're told to stay in. So we go upstairs.

We get to invited the suites. So we're just kind of hanging around the suites. And everyone's, you know, the employees are hanging around too. Like, we can't go anywhere. Now, that wasn't all night, but it was not a short time. So that was a very interesting moment. I remember having to put loud music on the headphones

to try to get back into the motor right because it's just like, this is a pretty important story here, guys. And feeling good, I remember being in the locker room, not too much, I just remember like they got in a circle. Remember this how they got in a circle? And they just kind of ran around each other.

Like you just saw this unified fusion of people. And even within that, like Shaquille and Kobe were just in that. They weren't like Just Shaq and Just Kobe. which impacted me. And I remember mostly Shaquille having this look of peace. Like you don't, he had always been anxious all season in the years before that too. It'd been like, what does he have to achieve? What can he get there?

Can he get there? In that moment, you see it in the pictures, but I remember feeling it. Like, he feels that he completed something that he did not know he could do. And this is like, you know, you want more. You want to achieve everything. you want to keep going. But I think for him being, you know, the people person that he is, right? He's like he likes people.

He likes being complimented by people. Kobe less so. Shaquille was that. And he was like, this is it. I've just done it. And that really struck me about that moment. Like he, as he called it what, the, the big picture trophy, which is the finals MVP, which he said was more important than the regular season MVP.

I was really struck by that. struck by that and also by the possibility that I might not have a car when I came back out afterwards, after the championship. And then I think Howard and I both talked to Jerry West because Jerry does not stick around for championships. Jerry doesn't do that kind of thing. We both talked to him, I think, the next day and go to the El Segundo offices, and there's Jerry in the darkness. And he's like, yeah, this is, yeah, this is, I like it. I literally said, Jerry, this is dark. He goes, yeah, I like it because it feels like a cave.

I think I miss translated it to Cage, but he did. It's a cave. I like it because it's a cave. And Jerry being Jerry, he was mostly upset. He wasn't thinking about this grand conclusion of an incredible question that he's put together. It was that there were these many riots, not riots, but there was these, you know, things burning and people over celebrating. And he was disgusted by that. And that's what he wanted to talk about. Very Jerry, very Jerry to be away from the celebration, because he is going to be nowhere near a celebration. And also, he's Jerry the next day, fuming in his dark office, that everything wasn't so good because people misbehaved the previous night. All right. Let's go into categories. Biggest what-ifs. I have a few listed right now. What if Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippen became Lakers before the season? Then Phil Jackson got his wish. Big biggest what-ifs. There was also a trade on the table, or it was a trade discussed for Kobe Bryant for Grant Hill in the middle of the season. Phil Jackson and considered it for like two seconds

and was like, nah, he loved Kobe's competitive drive, and he was six years younger than Grant Hill. There's one, what if the Lakers don't win this series? Probably both Shaq and Kobe. There's probably have one more year before they got it go. What if a smaller one, probably in consequence, but what if the Lakers miffed on Shaq's free agency?

He had the Hawks, Knicks, Pistons, Heat, and the Lakers were reportedly in the mix for his service. and the free agency that basically means that there's just Kobe on the roster and they are coached by Dale Harris and none of this actually happens those are my biggest what ifs you guys have any biggest what ifs for the audience Howard Beck well I'll just say this Jerry West was never trading Kobe Bryant ever as long as he was there of course Jerry West was only there as it turns out for a few more weeks or months after that championship but but during the season like the idea of them trading him like I don't think so um and now the biggest what if is just simply game seven

of the Western Conference Finals. Like, if the Blazers win that, they win the championship. Scotty gets a ring away from Michael. You know, Arvita Subonis, debt-liff, Shrempe, Steve Smith, Damon Stattermeyer, Bonzie Wells, Rashid Wallace, before he ever gets to Detroit,

those guys all have rings. I have no doubt in my mind. And the Lakers, if Shaq and Kobe are still together, it's not the same supporting cast. There would have been hell to pace. Somebody was going. So that Robert Rory Rick Fox,

Derek Fisher, Brian Shaw, supporting cast, something's getting broken if they don't win it. And also, I think if you don't win the first one, there's really no guarantee that you now have the confidence in the chemistry and everything that comes behind it to win the one the next year. And of course, they were absolutely dominant in 2001, the year they beat the Sixers, and they win the first 11 games of the playoffs without losing a game.

But I think if you lose game seven, it's so devastating. and it rocks their their foundation, I don't know that they're winning one, period, after that. You just don't know. Not saying they wouldn't have, you just don't know. So to me, that's still the biggest what if. Yeah, that's the biggest what if because it almost didn't. Like that really almost didn't happen.

And maybe we think of the Trailblazers organization in a very different way. Maybe, you know, I still think the leg is probably figure out how to win one, but it might just be won. And maybe Phil doesn't come back the second time because he's only, only one one. Maybe the Shaquille, Kobe flashpoint comes quicker. That is a,

that's the biggest one. The other one I'll say is what if they don't hire Phil Jackson? Because they were ready to hire Kurt Rambis. And what if Kurt Rambus is the head coach for this season? There's so much talent there, but there was some tension. There was some issues. I don't know if Jerry could have held it together. I think there would have been a much bigger focus,

a spotlighting of Grant Hill. I mean, I'm sorry, not Grant Hill, of Glenn Rice. Could Glenn Rice have been, like, thought of differently if he's the lead, you know, one of the lead figures instead of just kind of pushed aside by Phil Jackson. I don't think they would have won the championship. I don't think they would have got past Portland. But I think Kurt Rambus had a lot of backing in that franchise. So he wouldn't have been fired just after a year.

It would have been really interesting. It would have been very Laker, very Lakerie to have Kurt Rambas. We know that because the ties he continues to have with this team. team, his wife is Jeannie Bus's best friend. That one was really close, I think. That was close to happening. And I think we wouldn't have had sustained Lakers run, but it would have been something. And it would have been very much more in the Laker family. And Phil Jackson was the departure from that. And obviously, it was a successful departure from that. But man, it almost didn't happen. And Kurt Rambis really could have been a coach of that team.

By the way, I just want to go back to the 61 points in the LA Times article from there. Lonnie White. That's a Lonnie White game story. Let me read it. I got to read it. RIP to the Great. If the Clippers were hoping Lakers Center, Shaquille O'Neal would take it easy on them because Monday was his birthday, they surely were wrong. O'Neill, who turned 28, ripped through the Clippers' collection of Big Man as if they were wet food stamps in scoring a career high, 61 points to lead the Lakers to a 123-103 victory over the Clippers.

phenomenal. A little script to that one, the Clippers PR, led by Joe Safety, was furious because they say that Shaq got the tickets that he requested and that this was one of those Shaq embellishments and they were furious with this. Side note to the side note, I was doing some freelance stuff for Sports Illustrated at the time where they would ask a bunch of beatwriters to send it on, they'd pay me for a certain amount of notes per week. And they wanted to drill down on that one.

And I got the, the Clipper said, no, no, it's not what happened. happened. Here's what happened. S.I. ran with their version of it anyway where it's just Shaq getting revenge. And Joe Safety blew up at me all over again, but Joe safety was kind of a hothead who liked to blow up at things. So, let's go. I mean, that lead was the Apex Mountain for all-time leads. So let's go right in the Apex Mountain. Apex Mountain for Shaq, right? Apex Mountain is the all-time peak of a player's career. And I would say probably that, was it a Was it Apex Mountain for Staples Center maybe? First year?

It's just the first year of it. It's tough to say. It put Apex, it put Staple Center as not only just a venue, but as like a cathedral of sorts. A championship place. Yeah, I might want to go a little further in a Staples, but yeah, it was close. Shaquille for sure. I mean, maybe Phil had, you know, the Michael Jordan stuff, but this showed Phil could do it in another team. Phil could do it. Now, he still had superstars. He could do it without Michael.

That was a big deal, I think, for the Phil mythos. He already had a lot of mythos around it, but I think that was a big confirming moment for Phil. And peak Phil because he started dating Jeannie Bus. You know, that's not terrible for Phil. It's not a terrible moment. That's a great, honestly, great year for Phil. Amazing. You're a good year for Phil. I don't know if it's Apex Mountain for his life, but definitely Apex Mountain for Phil Jackson's time in L.A., right? Like, it was a great, great time. It was pretty good.

Andy got to hang out with me and Howard Beck. Who wouldn't consider that Apex Mountain for teams that you guys? Apex Mountain for teams that you guys cover maybe? It's tough. You cover Cubs 13. Goal and 9. I just right. I mean, I might have Shaq come after me for that,

but I'm not going anything more than the 17 Golden State Warriors. Any Apex nominees for you at Howard? I mean, just on the Beat Rider thing or just on stuff. Like, that's still, I think that Blazers, Lakers series is still probably my all-time favorite, although the King series two years later is pretty close. It's Apex Mountain for Jerry West, guys. I mean, I know Jerry West had, you know, a half century of greatness in various roles, most of them with the Lakers.

And then later, of course, his advisory roles with the Warriors and Clippers. But think about it this way. Shack and Kobe is his crowning achievement. He's, you know, Showtime is. is gone. And again, as we talked about early in the pod, he goes and gets these two guys who form one of the greatest tannums in NBA history. And there's no guarantee it's going to work. There's no guarantee about anything. And right after this championship, because Jerry's Jerry, he walks away. He retires. There were some medical issues that were part of it. There was just

the stress. There was a lot of mental health stuff that he didn't give, you know, let on about until many, many years later when he ended up talking about it publicly and then writing about it. But Jerry leaves. And then two years later, he goes and becomes, you know, the GM or president of the Memphis Grizzlies, finishes his career with the Warriors, with the Clippers. He's, you know, because of a weird, you know, divide between him and the buses or between him and Jeannie, specifically, perhaps. He's never back with the Lakers. But he did this.

Like, showtime is gone and there's no guarantee the Lakers or ever the Lakers again, the way we think about them, right? And this is, like, this is all Jerry West. and unfortunately wired the way he is, he doesn't get to enjoy it in the way that he should have or be able to consider the vindication that I was trying to say it was the next day when I saw him in that dark office

and interviewed him. And there was just no joy there, unfortunately. But I do think this is his, for everything that he has achieved in his career, I do think that was Jerry West Apex Mountain. That would be a Howard Beck question. How did this team in their win change the NBA, if at all? The way it changed the NBA is simply this. Everybody needed either a Kobe stopper, shout out Rubin Patterson, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie, all the guys that teams were now trying.

Roger Bell. Everybody wanted to get somebody who could check Kobe in addition to the fact that teams were already trying to load up on Biggs to either try to slow up or at least foul the living crap out of Shaq. So I don't know that it changed the NBA structure, but it pushed everybody to try to get somebody who could stand up to Shaq and somebody who could at least stay with Kobe. Other than that, like, it was an affirmation once more that, you know, a superstar duo was the path. This is before we get to the super team era of you got to have three with, you know, the Celtics and then the heat and then, you know, that the whole, you know, super team era. But back then it was like, if you got two, you're, you're in business. And, you know, good luck copying that. But, but that was definitely the model. I would say, I mean, this is hard to duplicate and maybe only three or four guys can do it.

but I think it really, Chuck Daly did some of it. Pat Riley did some of it, but Phil really was the coaching is 80% managing people. It's not the strategy so much. It's not the timeouts. It's some of that, but most of it, it's figuring out how to play different people off of certain situations to make sure you're getting the most out of them, to make sure this person isn't cladding with that person, to putting in a situation where the egos can.

mesh where the neurotic ones can work with the super egos. And that's the NBA, man, that is it. It had been that before. But I think this really with the Shaq and Kobe, alpha, alpha, alpha combination, you have to get got to manage the personalities in order to get yourself to be able to manage the strategies. Last question. Who won the year? I would say Shaquille O'Neal. But I think he's the one that had the most to gain from this. You can beg the argument for Phil, but this was his very best season. If the season doesn't happen in the championship, we look at Shaq a lot differently than we do.

But what are your thoughts on who won the year, Tim? 100%. Shaquille O'Neill, only MVP. I mean, Kobe only won one MVP too, but this was the Shaquille O'Neal MVP season in his prime. If it doesn't happen at this moment, When will it happen? It's one of his healthiest seasons.

It's one of his most consistent seasons. This is before it really starts splitting with Kobe. This is when everyone understands that he's the most dominant force in the game. Maybe you thought so beforehand, but this is, it's crystallized with a championship. If he doesn't do this at this moment, at this exact time at the top of the peak, we definitely think it should kill differently. I think he thinks of himself differently. I think the league considers him differently historically. This is Shaquille's victorious season.

I don't think there's a question about it. We won. The media won the year. We got Shaq and Kobe and Shaq and Kobe won, and they put on an incredible freaking show. I mean, listen, we won, the fans won. David Stern and the NBA won. Michael Jordan retires in 1998.

We don't know yet that he's going to be coming back with the Wizards. And frankly, that was irrelevant anyway when it comes right down to it for, you know, league marketing and popularity purposes. But the league was feeling pretty antsy and ratings were down. And it was definitely in the post-Jordan era, the first couple of years, it was a little bit uncertain. And, you know, Alan Iverson couldn't be the face of the league for all kinds of reasons. Tim Duncan was not going to be the face of the league.

Kevin Garnett, Chris Weber, T-Mack, Vince, Dirk, Marbury, like all the guys who were coming along at that time who, you know, Grant Hill, who you thought might be able to fill the void, none of them were up to that. Kobe was absolutely up to it and wanted it. Shaq absolutely wanted it in a much different way. Shaq always resented that we in the media and the fans would always fall in love with like the shifty guards or, you know, the six six wings and guards who could like, you know, put the ball between their legs five times and then go to the rack and dunk. they never you know was the nobody roots for goliath thing and but somebody had to seize the league and it had to be somebody compelling like the spurs were a dynasty of sorts too their their

championships are very spread out but they weren't as compelling the league needs compelling the bulls were compelling is all hell and coby and shack and phil were fucking compelling they were great theater as well as great basketball so uh the league won the year and we won this podcast that is That has been the latest edition of NBA lore. This has been a real treat. You know, I've read you guys for a very, very long time. And, like, just getting to know how we through this podcast has been a treat. And, like, also coming up under the fire of Tim Kawakami in the Bay Area, you know, to actually do a podcast with them.

And then get you guys two together to talk about the 1999-2000 Lakers. It was a treat. Thank you guys so much for doing this. Man, I really appreciate it, guys. This was awesome. You got a look. Thanks for bringing us together. I can't remember the last.

last time Kawakami and I talked this long about the year 2000 so this is fun oh man we're just going to end with this picture all right thanks so much talk to y'all soon peace