The Ringer NBA Show - Ringing in NBA Xmas With a Question for Every Game | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 22, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos begin by discussing all the replacement players that teams have signed and pick out their favorites so far (1:00). Then, they run through the Christmas Day slate and ask one question about each game, including whether Kyrie playing part time is a good idea (4:00), the best team in the West (26:00), and whether Trae Young has ascended to be the best guard in the East (46:00).  Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Mike Wargon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everybody, this is Warren Sharp, NFL analyst over at Sharp Football Analysis. I want to welcome you to the ringer gambling show. Join me on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays each week during the NFL season with guests Chris Vernon, Ben Solac, and Joe House to guide you through the NFL betting landscape. We'll be talking spreads, game totals, parlays, player props, futures, and much, much more. Be sure to follow the ringer gambling show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to group chat and have yourself a merry

Amacron Christmas Big Was Rob Mahoney Justin Verrier here to walk you through the Christmas Day games on ESPN Waz are you excited for these marquee matchups on the NBA's marquee day?

Oh my God, so excited to watch Tony Rotin and I renewable hoop this Christmas is going to be fire. Yeah, I really wanted to talk about who is the goat of Omicron.

Like who's the best player ever who's ever had COVID? And whether or not Michael Jordan would have played through COVID. What do you think, Rob? Let's go cross-generational with this. You know, who is the best player

with the Spanish flu? I think we started there and then we compare across eras, you know? Now, but I did actually want to talk about some of these 10-day guys that have gotten signed

because, boy, have I gotten a lot of alerts from both Shams and Wojj. It is COVID-free agency out there, my friends. And seeing names from guys who probably haven't played in the league for multiple years at this point. Rob, who's like the favorite deep cut that you've seen crossed through the wires over the past? What is it?

Week or so now. Well, you know, Tom Ziller called this the Who He Play for Olympics, which I love. But, I mean, really, this is blogger's paradise. This is where we live, Justin. This is reaching deep into the bag of the blog posts for the Shaq Harrison's and the Mario Chalmers. Actually, I think Mario Chalmers might be my favorite, the fact that he's back from the dead. But I don't know if this is deep cut enough. But Joe Johnson on the Celtics coming full circle back to where it started.

You got to love it. That's a really good one. And we were looking up the salaries that these 10-day contracts are associated with. And apparently, according to this link that we found, the scale depends on how much service you had in the NBA. So a 15-year vet like Joe Johnson is getting paid well over 150K for 10 days of service. which is a good deal if you can get. I want that deal. Well, look, this time of year,

you're paying 30 bucks for rush shipping for your presents for your kids. Money's got to come from somewhere. My favorite thing is my normie friends texting me and saying, do you think Isaiah Thomas is a good pickup for the Lakers? And I'm just like, guys, guys, there's a reason this guy is signing

after people get Omari on COVID. Like, he would have already. been on a team, guys. Yeah, I don't even know if we can call this Bloggers Paradise because, like, bloggers Paradise suggests to me that these are deep cut guys who might maybe not have heard of, like who might have a chance and who might be able to establish himself.

You mean like Sherryd Harper? Yeah, or like Luke Hornet. Guys like that who like might be underrated. These are guys that are just, you know, I guess able bodies. This is insane. Our guy, CJ Miles is out here getting minutes or ostensibly in line to get minutes.

It's real Ghost of Christmas Pass. vibes is what it is. You're right. They're not, they're not quite, like, we need that Jared Bayliss or Anthony Randolph to really get into it. But as it stands, who the hell is Matt Mooney? Right. He's a guy from the other pile. Lance Stevenson is out there. There's a lot, man. There's a lot going on. Yeah. But here we are on the precipice of Christmas Day, one of the biggest days in the NBA calendar. We're going to try to muster up. a Christmas Day preview by talking about one non-COVID-related question about the teams in each matchup. Because we want to put a positive spin on things.

And if this is dated by the end of the week, well, that's how content works, my friends. Let's start with the Brooklyn Nets. I guess this is non-COVID related, though it's semi-COVID related at the very best. We didn't get a chance to talk about Kyrie Irving coming back from the dead, although maybe poor truce of words here. But Kyrie is now a part-time player when he is able to take the floor because he is also in protocols

like everybody else on the Brooklyn Nets. Waz, good idea, bad idea? What do you think? I don't know how we could go from saying born ready, just got a call up and asking ourselves if having Kyrie Irving part-time is a good or bad idea.

Like part of me wants to go. go sort of holistic with it and be like, look, you guys put your foot down. This sets a bad precedent as far as the team culture and who are you, who's being held accountable and who has different rules and X, Y, and Z. But like when your team is in this level of dire straits, bringing in a freaking all-star point guard is a good thing, basically no matter how you slice it at this point. Well, didn't they bring Kyrie in to play by different rules? Like, that's kind of the point of being a star.

I feel like they cater to that from the start. They knew what they were signing up for when they brought in Kyrie and Katie. And then eventually when they trade for James Harden, being a modern NBA team means catering to your stars in a lot of ways. And so, I mean, I don't like this in terms of the headspace for a team playing with a guy part of the time. I don't like this as a leverage play and a leverage win for a pretty over-the-top anti-vax player. But we're in the fuck-it stage of the NBA season. where, you know, clearly these games are going to go on.

Clearly, the league is shifting from pandemic mode to endemic mode. And this is the kind of thing that results from that. Yeah, I mean, I do think they've gotten a lot of cover because everything has just gone to shit like you guys have mentioned. Like, like, these are desperate times and just calling upon your superstar to actually just check into work for a couple of days. Like, is a pretty good option to have here. I guess the problem is once we get through this, this like era of the. NBA when we get to the new year and maybe some of these issues start to clear up, does it become more of an issue? Does it get more focus? I guess like those things that you're

talking about, Rob, did they become more of a big deal? I mean, all I know is that every player who plays alongside like an often injured guy, a guy who's constantly in and out of the lineup, they will tell you about how distracting and challenging it is to game plan with and with that. You're basically having to learn two game plans when you play with a guy like that. The Kyrie's situation is different because it's going to be very predictable. He literally cannot play in home games. So you know he's out for those. But are you really going to change what you do, Road versus Home, him in the lineup

versus him without? Because he's the kind of player who makes you want to change what you do. He's that talented. He's that skilled. You know, you can't just plug and play. Even a guy like Patty Mills for Kyrie Irving. They're just functionally not in the same universe. Yeah, I guess my issue is more just how much of a big deal people made out of the

that's taking a stand against Kyrie to begin with. Like, it was like, win one for the ownership. And like, because Kyrie wasn't following the rules. And this is a stand for like, you know, doing the right thing, et cetera, et cetera. But as soon as they needed him, they called him up and was like, hey, can you do this? I don't know. I think there were a lot of bad takes that I think needed to get deleted as a result of this. Just by definition, exceptions get made for people who are exceptional.

So, like, if Kyrie were not the level of player, he is, people wouldn't be bending over backwards to accommodate him. And the bottom line is, like, last season was probably Kyrie's best season as a pro. So, like, he's squarely in the prime of his career. He's a guy who's proven himself in the playoffs when he's played. And, you know, like, this is what they have to do. I don't know. Like, I was, I myself was just happy to see them be like, bro, like, what are you?

you doing? You know, somebody stand up to just the absurdity of it all. But like, you know, they got to do what they got to do. They're running a business and that business is trying to win basketball games. And so, you know, Kyrie's

back. I'm sure it'll probably be in L.A. No? For Christmas? Yeah. We'll see because I think there's still some gray area in terms of what the protocols are for guys. Like, it's typically 10 days and because we know he isn't vaccinated, he's probably going to have to do at least 10 days.

Well, it's 10 days assuming you can test negative. Some guys will stretch longer. And some guys may have conditioning issues. And he's working his way back from not playing at all. So maybe there's a longer runway for him. We'll have to see. I mean, I think the nets are, they've been uniquely hit by COVID. Like, they have eight guys out right now, including all their stars.

And we saw what that did to, you know, when Kevin Durant was playing, he's playing, you know, 45 minutes a game to accommodate that. And so one way or another, they were. we're going to reach some kind of breaking point. And clearly this is what they decided to do with it, you know, whether we love it or not. Yeah,

I mean, a second round pick, I believe played like 39 minutes in their last game. That's the infamous David Duke Jr. Like goes off game was the last game they played because right before we recorded this, they postponed another game. So they might not actually have another game until Christmas. And if we really want to put on the tinfoil hat,

I do wonder if like for guys like Kevin Durant, who we know had COVID and like has built antibodies and whatever. And like, I do wonder if like, we start to see some of those guys on Christmas days. There's enough, like, fogginess to the protocols. And Adam Silver talked about this recently, where he's like, yeah, it's still 10 days or two negative PCR tests.

I do wonder if we start to see some of the more marquey names, but Kyrie seems unlikely. Just given what we know? I don't know. It's kind of a mess here. But I do want to talk briefly about the other team that they're matched up against Los Angeles Lakers because, as well, as mentioned, IT is back. Does anyone feel the warm and fuzzies for the little guy being back on the big stage? Again, it took a global pandemic rearing its ugly head again for this dude to get a call up, right?

And to me, the craziest part about it is we think about the stuff that ails the Lakers as far as like perimeter defense and rebounding and all things that IT has never done in the best of times. post hip surgery. He's probably doing it a worst clip. But yeah, it's a nice story. I mean, the guy was begging to be back in the league. He was begging people

for sneakers on the internet. He was down bad for a minute. So it's cool to see him back and back with the Lakers, you know. So, yeah, it's a nice story. But I'm like, how heartfelt can it be when like, you know,

bodies are literally dropping for the Lakers to call this dude. And that's with, you know, doing whatever they had to do to get Russell Westbrook to test negative to get back in the lineup too. Like there's been some weirdness going on with whatever the Lakers testing regimen is. But the only reason Isaiah Thomas is on the Lakers is because like Kendrick Nunn has a knee injury and Avery Bradley is out with COVID. And like there's this chain reaction of stuff that's going on there that has led to this.

But, you know, no one is going to disparage that guy. He's clearly been working and trying to get back here and more actively engaged. and campaigning for his spot in the NBA, which I respect it. Yeah, the clip of him that circulated over the summer about him sobbing after dropping a bunch of points in like a summer league, like warm up game was legitimately heartbreaking.

And so for that reason, it's like, it's nice to see that it actually paid off for him. On the other hand, when he goes one for 11 with the opportunity, like he did last night against the suns, it's just like, maybe that's why you weren't in the last.

league, my friend. Yeah, I mean, what is he going to do against good NBA teams and a team like the sons in particular? Like, there's just, there's nothing for him in a game like that. Yeah. So who's worse? IT or THHT? This isn't a real question. This is not a real question. The problem for the Lakers is that that's semi-legitimate. No. Obviously, THT is better, but he sucked this year, dude. He's not been good. He really has. Like, they gave him all that money in the off-season. season hoping that basically, you know, he would transform into a peak Lou Will type of guy, right? Like a bench guy who comes in, spark plug could get you close to 20 on any night.

And he has been none of that. When to kind of look at what this Christmas Day game could have been if everyone was healthy, you could see a world in which the Lakers come into this thing ready to show the world, like, okay, we started slow, but we're going to beat this marquee team in front of everybody. in the country. And maybe they ride something off that. Maybe they can build something off that. Instead, Anthony Davis is out for the foreseeable future with a knee injury.

They have all these guys out with COVID. Like, LeBron is doing what he can, but it's kind of bleak to watch their games at the moment. I don't know what to say about this group. Like, they're kind of a disaster. When the Nets get all their guys back, we know they're going to be good. Yep. When the Lakers, if the Lakers get all their guys back, like, what's been the proof that they're any good this year? There is none.

It's LeBron at a press conference saying, there could be something here, I guess. That's about as strong a confirmation as we've gotten. Are you saying the three-guard lineup of Tht, IT, and Russell Westbrook isn't going to put fear in the heart of the Utah Jazz and some of their other first-round opponents? Thth, 1 for 13. I believe he set a record for amount of misses,

given the volume of threes he took, O for 8. IT 1 for 11 0 for 6 for 3 this is like one of the worst performances of a of a potential back core partnership that I think I've ever seen in my entire life like this is going to give

if there's a warm and fuzzy feeling it's from Laker fans remembering the good old days when it was like Kobe and Wayne Ellington the first time around just throwing up bricks in the marquee game against like the Miami Heat or whoever is the dominant team of that era. Shouts to Queens native Smush Parker

there you go. All right we can move along here. Number two on our list for the game between the Celtics and the Bucks. This is an interesting one because, Rob, I feel like you were on the precipice of saying like, oh, bucks are looking frisky. Bucks are back. We should talk more about the Bucks.

Unfortunately, lately, they've lost two straight in pretty ugly fashion, but they're also another team hit by COVID-Yonnas. Dante Divencenzhenzo didn't even get to make his triumphant comeback because he got put into protocols. But overall, what tier do you think the Bucks are in at this? point. I think there's still a first-tier team, and it's mostly just because there's as good as anybody

in the east. So, like, the West, there's going to be a slug fest between, you know, depending on whatever you make of Utah, I think they're probably in that category, and then Phoenix and Golden State. I think the bucks are as good as the Nets. I think they've shown more than the Nets. The reality is when Janus, Chris and Drew Holiday have played, they're 12 and 2. Are we doing Chris now? Is that a first name only guy? He's not a first. Yeah. If you've been around, look, once you're a champion, you get to be a first name only guy. Okay. But so they're 12 and two when those three guys are healthy.

Chris Middleton's the only one with like an actually worrisome long, like we need to kind of see what happens with his knee. And then Brooke Lopez is out with his back for the foreseeable future. I think we probably should wait and see, like believe it when we see it that he's going to be a relevant factor for them later this season. So they need to figure out their center position. But when their stars play, they win. When their stars are on the floor, they blow teams out by double digit margins.

This doesn't seem that complicated to me. They just need to kind of get guys back. Yeah, and I'm somebody who thinks they figured a lot of things out about themselves, basically from like the last game and a half of the Hawks series through that Sun series. And with those three guys on the floor, like what they showed defensively last year in the playoffs, like they understand the gear and the level of execution they have to be at to be, that to be championship worthy, they've done it. So they have the institutional knowledge.

To me, like, they're right there with anybody. And when you have somebody like Janus again in the play, people don't remember how, like, it's easy to forget how insanely good he was in the playoffs last year. He was the best player in the NBA, in the NBA playoffs. A playoffs that included LeBron, included KD, included, you know, well, Shen Goon didn't play in the playoffs yesterday.

I mean last year, but, you know, but I'm just saying the best players in the league, Janish, his star, shine the brightest. And so to me, it's hard to forget what these guys did last year. And as Rob said, 12 and 2 when the big three are in the lineup together,

I think they're at the top of the NBA as far as championship contenders are concerned. Yeah, I guess the question is how much do they need Brooke Lopez to feel completely? because on the one hand, their defense was near historic levels when Brooke was out there in years past. On the other hand, Yannis is going to be more at center than you're a little bit more flexible, maybe leaning into lineups that were more successful for them later on in last year's playoffs with Bobby Portis and Yannis in the front court. I forgot to mention Bobby Portis also in protocols.

Yeah. So do you think that's like helpful in a way? Is this an addition by subtraction sort of thing? No. And some of that is going back to what we talked about last week with that. them as a trade candidate. Like, they need another big to kind of get through the season, I think. Right.

And what Brooke Lopez would have given them 20 minutes a game or something like that, 25 minutes a game. That would be helpful. For the playoffs, I think they can get through the East with Janus, mostly at center of Bobby Portis some of the time. And then, you know, maybe a buyout guy or something like that filling in where they can.

Like, I think that's perfectly viable, given the teams that they're going to end up playing against. Like, can Blake Griffin, we've seen what he can do against Janus? Is Lamarcus Aldridge going to fare any better trying to handle him? I think this reminds me of Golden State in the sense that Kerr always understood that you couldn't just play Draymond 42 minutes at the 5. So therefore you had to let Varajal, Zaza, you know, Festusazili, you know, you name it, guys get some run. And then when it, you know, when it was nut crunching time in the 4th, Dreimam was out there at the 5 swallowing everything up. I think the bucks just need to fill in these stopgaps for Janus.

but when the, you know, when the rubber meets the road, if I could use another terrible cliche, I think Janice would be out there at the five and in the playoffs, they're going to be monsters on that end for it. Yeah, I mean, while they do have issues in the front court, their back court does seem deeper than it was at any point last year because Grayson Allen has definitely helped give them a new dimension there.

Dante DiCenzo is ostensibly. Yeah, he's been better. And then you have Pat Connoisse. So you have like three guys plus Holiday plus Middleton to really get you through like most playoff matchups there, which I think is helpful. And that's the other thing they really haven't had in addition to having, you know, Chris Middleton out for this game or that. And now Janus out in the health and safety protocols. They've also been short like one or two role players for most of these games in a way that cinches up the rotation, forces guys into, you know, overstretched roles. A fully healthy Bucks team, again, like maybe putting Brooke Lopez in a different category, a mostly healthy Bucks team.

I think it's still really formidable. Let's kind of clarify this tier here because I think we've mentioned like seven teams in the top tier. Like if we were to identify tier one, the best of the best, who's in that, according to you, Oz?

Nets, bucks, sons, warriors, jazz. I put the jazz in the top tier. That's tier one. So that's five teams. Yeah. I think those are the five best teams. There's no separation up there.

There's no separation. between the Milwaukee Bucks and the Utah Jazz and the Phoenix Suns and the Warriors? I think relative to their competition, right? Like, you have to make it out of the West. And if you're the Jazz, you might have the best point differential in the league this season

and be the third best team in your conference. Like, that might be the reality of it. So you're grading on a curve. Of course. If the Jazz played the Bucks, both teams fully healthy, yes, I'm taking the Bucks, like, without a question.

But I think in the West playoffs, matchup-wise, I think they'll do well against the Sons. I think they'll do well against the Warriors, right? Because those teams, I don't think, can beat them up inside in the way that, you know, quite

frankly, Janice can. So, and much as we love Aiton, I just don't think he's that, he's not a Rudy neutralizer that way. Like, Janus is going to go straight up at Rudy, the strength of that team. And, you know, putting files on his ass. And once Rudy's not playing in there for

defense, forget about it wait Rob what is your tier one it's the same yeah yeah I'd go with the same god you guys are so charitable so I would have the calves Justin's out here like taking money out of the charity collection for Christmas

yeah no I would have the sons warriors I would have them on a first tier of their own I would have the nets on their own tier because I think that full strength they're probably better than both of those teams and then in the next tier I would have the jazz in the box

and probably no one else oddly enough like the tier after that is like 70 teams but I do think there's a difference between the Suns, Warriors and maybe even the Nets and the Jazz and the Bucks at this point well so you're grading it based on just like who is the best team not necessarily

what that's how tiers work no no no I think I think the way we're tiering it is like who can win the championship who can get to the finals to me those are the finals worthy level teams to me. Look, Bam hasn't played in how freaking long. Watching Kyle Lowry play with a bunch of G-leaguers in a way is like the ultimate

Kyle Lowry like experience of just like this absolutely should not work at all, but for the will of Kyle Lowry and his rump. And then Gabe Vincent has 28 points and he wins. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, Casey Akpala. I want to see the heat at full strength again. And I think they'll be knocking at the door of me and Rob's five team tier. I guess I'm distinguishing between favorites and the next group of teams that have a title chance,

but I wouldn't necessarily call. Okay, so who's your title favorite right now? If you could put money right now, if you had to, the Warriors. The Warriors. I think the Suns might be better, but the Warriors. are the betting favorite. Like, I feel in my deep, like, black soul that the warriors are probably the favorites.

No? So for me, I think my favorite has to... This is actually a question we're going to get to later. So let's just flip to it now. Like, who's the favorite right now, sons are warriors? So, Was, who are you picking? The Nets.

I'm here in New York City right now. I'm here in New York City right now, and by the time the playoffs come, our new black right wing mayor will have lifted COVID protocols and sotted the way for Kyrie Irvin to be a full-time worker again. And yeah, the Nets, I think at full strength,

are a better team than the Warriors, especially in a playoff setting. I just think the game grinds down to a straight-up half-court offense. And my half-court offense is Kyrie Irving, and Kevin Durant slicing dudes up yours is a bunch of fucking screens praying that you get an open three

give me the Nets as the title favorite thanks to our new mayor here in New York you used a phrase there I thought was interesting which is full strength and like are we going to see full strength James Harden this season we may not at all I don't know what if this is his new full strength

that's getting that's getting that's getting that's getting very real for for this time in the morning it's more girth than strength i would say oh lord have mercy um rob where do you fall on that divide sons warriors and i guess that's as well well well i'm going to stick to sons and warriors i'm going to stick to the parameters of the christmas day matchup between those two for the west i think it's the warriors i think it's close enough to call that it's like one of these teams is getting Clay Thompson back, and so that will probably put them over the top. But otherwise, it really does seem like the sons are more stable, but the warriors are more explosive. And it's like wherever you fall on that divide is probably going to determine how you answer that question.

And you are an explosive guy. As we all know. Right. Wise, if you had to just pick between the two, where do you fall? It's warriors. I've just watched this group do too many amazing things for seven years now. So I'm like You give me Clay, Steph and Draymond Against the Sons I'm sorry I have to take them Like I have to

And I know the Sons fans They're obsessed with Perceived slights And all of this shit on Twitter They're still mad that I thought that the Lakers The best team in the NBA last year Would beat them at full strength In the playoffs last year

I don't you know And then they're screaming at me like Oh what about the Lakers now? I'm like well they traded away All of their best defense and players and the roster is not even close to the same. But whatever, I digress. I'm picking

the Warriors against the sons in a playoff matchup for sure. Well, and meanwhile, there's some jazz fans fuming in the corner that they're not considered, you know, co-favorers with this group. Okay, here's the thing about jazz fans. Why they got to shut the fuck up. Y'all lost.

They didn't even say, I just made up that they were mad and now was just given what I'm talking to. The fucking Clippers without Kauai Leonard, bro. Y'all didn't lose one game. Like one game you can say, oh my God, they had the home crowd behind them, and it was just, you know, really fluky, and, you know, guys went crazy from three and this and that.

Bro, y'all lost two games to a Kawhis Clippers with your season on the line last year. Y'all got to stop crying. It was tough. But at some point we're going to have to figure out if there's anything different going on. Because we've seen this, we've seen the regular season jazz many times. Is there anything to believe that this,

situation could be different. That's probably a subject for a later pod. Well, let's talk about it now because I do think that's relevant. I almost put that in to the doc as the question for that matchup with the jazz. They are a little bit different. Like they're all of a sudden an offensive juggernaut with a very good defense, not the other way around.

That's weird. But I do think what we had been saying since the playoff is like, what do we think about their perimeter defense? They have been trying a little bit more with Rudy Gay at the 5. I believe the sample sizes are pretty minuscule. And I think their big question is like, what do they do at the

deadline? Now they have Danny Aange in there. And I think like a pretty fair question is does Aange do what he didn't do with the Celtics and put up some of those draft assets, some of those future assets in a trade in order to take advantage of a window? Like we talked about Jeremy Grant last year. Like do you give up multiple picks for a guy like Grant and say this year and maybe next year is it? and we'll deal with the repercussions when they come. Like, what do you guys think about that? I think that's an incredible deal to do for the jazz. You guys know I'm super high on Jeremy Grant.

However, I think that has to happen in concert with Rudy has to get the Brock. Like, the best teams are going to downsize against these guys, and Rudy has to make them pay down low. And I'm not talking about post-ups, like straight up picking rolls, get his ass down. And people, and the other part is, here's the thing, like, I've given Rudy a lot of grief over the years because, like, some of his stuff gets on my nerves, but what you can't take away from this dude is his effort level on a play-by-play basis. Like, he's setting an incredible screen and booking it to the basket every single possession. And there's literally one person on the team who ever looks in his direction, and it's Mike Conley.

like they have to give him the ball and I think that will solve a lot of their problems against these downsizing teams like Rudy has to get the ball and if the jazz get it in their heads that like no not we're going to turn him into Hakeem Olajuwon or shack where it's going to be three dribbles

on a post up and turn around and do whatever like y'all got to look for him within the flow of what y'all already do which is a heavily pick and roll offense and I think that's what we'll take them to the next level is actually letting the dude you're paying $50 trillion to be a threat on offense in your most important games. And even now, they're a little spotty with that. Like, you could tell there are games where it was item 1A in the pregame meeting and they come out

and they're looking for Rudy and it's right there. And there are times where it's the same stuff. Donovan Mitchell just not seeing him when he's open. You know, Boyabang Donovic, like just not his disposition as a passer to like find a guy like Rudy Gobert. And Justin, you nailed it. Like the construction of this team is to be a very good offense and a pretty good defense. And that pretty good defenses hinges entirely on Rudy Gober. It is the, it's the reverse Alan Iverson model. Like we have one good defender and we have good offensive players. And so if Rudy's not getting the ball, if he's not going all out on defense, you're cooked. You don't have a chance in the playoffs. And so if that's the way to engage him and if that's the way to involve him on offense and get him

going even harder on defense and being plugged in, that's what you got to do. That's your only real shot. See, but I'm not even talking about, like, I don't think of this as like some sort of participation trophy to ensure that Rudy gives it is all on defense. I legitimately think when it's a six, five guy switched on to him and he's four feet from the basket, y'all got to find a way to give that man the ball, period. I just, I just mean like if you're the jazz, you cannot afford for Rudy Gobert to be frustrated. Yeah. Because your guys are going to get cooked. Like, I don't one A, again, not in a participation trophy way, because Brudy Goberra is shown.

He can be a really efficient finisher if you get him the damn ball. You need to engineer more of your offense. I know it's free flowing. I know it's concept driven, but you need to have more purposeful ways to get him the ball. Yeah, it seems concerned trolley to talk, like, in such dire terms about a team that's first on offense and sixth on defense. But the sixth on defense is kind of a red flag because they do,

to your guys' point, need to be elite on defense in order to combat other teams in the playoffs because if it's like their offense against the three ISO magicians, on the magical realism Brooklyn Nets, like, you know, it's probably not going to tilt in the favor of like a Mike Conley, Jordan Clarkson, ISOFest, you know what I mean? And so, I mean, just to circle back to the original question, though, like, do you think if they get a guy like Grant

or some approximation of that, do you think that's enough to push it all in? Does the team have title, talent, like, we're one move away from being on the tier of sons, warriors, et cetera, if we just do this and it doesn't matter about the future repercussions. I think ideally you want a player who can guard one through three. Yes.

And that way you have the flexibility to say at least there's one matchup we don't have to completely worry about. Like it's the compounding liabilities for the jazz that creates problems. And if you can shift those that, you know, the way those liabilities overlap a little bit, I think that could go a really long way for their defense. Yeah. I just,

to me, like, you have two great players. They have to be great. I know that's not too profound, but like Donovan Mitchell has to be dominant. And Rudy has to do more than six shots and three free throws. You know, like six field goal attempts and three free throw. Like, he has to be more than that. And if he's more than that and you already know what he's doing for you defensively,

then that's Rudy's version of greatness. So to me, like, these fringe things would help. And I don't want to say somebody like Jerry and Grant's a fringe player. He's not. Jeremy Grant. Jerry and Grant is a fringe player. Jerry and Grant, absolutely a fringe player. I'll never forgive Twitter when the Knicks had like traded him to bring Noah in.

They kept referring to him as Nick Asset, Jerry and Grant. I'm like, guys, I've watched that guy play 50 times this year. He is nobody's version of. of an asset outside of Grand Rapids, Michigan, y'all. Like, stop it. But, like, I just think the two guys have to, they have to show up in major ways, you know. Mitchell has to average 30 points pretty efficiently. And Rudy has to be a plus on offense if they're going to do the things that they said.

Like, I talked to Donovan Mitchell on our YouTube show, and he said anything that isn't the conference finals is a failure for this team. Donovan Mitchell said that out of his mouth, right? And so if they're supposed to, if they, if they're a team that wants to get to that level, those two guys have to be great players. And for the record, I think there

is a universe in which that happens. I think there's a good chance they can make the conference finals. I think there's a decent chance they make it out of the West. They are good enough to do it. They've just, they've found so many different ways over the last couple of seasons to get in their own way. You know, to bog down what they do with

bad decision making with streaky shooting, whatever it is year to year. There's always an explanation. But they got to figure something out. And they have good enough personnel to be better in the playoffs than they are to take some of this regular season dominant magic and translate it a little bit better over the course of seven games. Let's slip to their opponent on Christmas Day who is struggling to find any magic whatsoever. That is the Dallas Mavericks.

They're currently 15 and 15 with the 20th best offense in the league. Luca has been out the past five games with a nagging injury. So there's some sample size, small sample size theater going on there. But boy, howdy, Rob, broadcasting from Dallas. Like, what's the vibe there? Is there concern just circling through all the Waterbergers? Well, right now there's just like a Jalen Brunson parade going on after his strong play in Luca's absence. So spirits are high.

You know, you're here in the trenches in Dallas. This is a team, they've got real problems offensively. And it's Luca or not, like, it's a roster that was built to be very Luca-centric with a lot of role players who are not capable of handling the ball a ton of doing a lot of stuff. And yet they have an offense that's engineered to spread the ball around and take it out of Lucas' hands. You can see how there might be some problems with that. And so that manifests oftentimes in guys who are usually standstill shooters, who are now

cutting and moving and trying to shoot a little bit in more creative situations. doesn't really work. Not really hitting at the level they need to, and a lot of their offense starts there. It's not a quote-unquote, just missing open shots issue. It's a role issue. It's a structural issue.

It's based in the personnel of what they have and who they are. So I don't know how you fix that stuff. And that's not even touching, you know, some of the more frustrating parts of Luca's play or his conditioning and stuff coming into the season.

Yeah, the, you know, fat and sloppy out of shape portion of it has been done on three trillion podcasts and TV show segments. So we can ignore that here? Well, can I just make one comment, though? Like, it was weird that we got a story about, like, Luca's conditioning midway through the season. It's just like, like, where did that come from exactly?

It's almost like a side swipe. Listen, I would never besmirce to reporting, the shoe leather reporting of my man, Tim McMahon. Man, he's getting the goods. He let the people know the man is 265 pounds. And it is a two guard. That's a problem. I'm just, you know, because again, I'm sitting here in New York.

I remember when the Chris Stap's trade went down. And I remember it being the Knicks got fleeced. This is going to be the new Stockton Malone, meaning you can now pencil the Mavs in for 50 wins a year every single year because they have these two young studs who so perfectly compliment each other. Their primes are going to line up because basically Luca hit his prime in year two of his career. And it's just going to be roses and daisies forever down in a D. Has not been the case whatsoever.

You know, per Tim McMahon's reporting, these two homies didn't even like each other for most of their partnership. I don't know how you could see that trade as some kind of boon for the Mavericks at this point It's just I don't know what they do Like does Chris Defts have trade value What do you even bring in? I don't want to be concerned surely And be like well what kind of person works next to Luca

But like what kind of person works next to Luca You know what I'm not really sure anymore You know I think they got problems man Well some of the problem in the question of who works well next to Luca is Luca right now is a complete zero when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Doesn't move, doesn't do anything, stands way behind the three-point line in a way that, you know, it'll draw some defensive attention, but he's not helping anybody when he doesn't have the ball.

And so, again, if you're going to run an offense that's driven to engage Chris Stap's Porzingis more often and get him more touches and, you know, let's get him at the free throw line. Let's get him in the post. And Luca's standing there. It's a tough premise to start from. So is that a Luca problem? Is that a Christopps problem or is that a Jason Kidd problem?

I think it's all of the above because it's like, Christops wasn't happy with his previous role because he thought it was too simplistic. He wasn't getting the ball in like different enough positions. There's a lot of pick and pop, stay, stand on the side kind of situation. Luca's not helping it by basically only being able to play or only being willing to play one way right now. And Jason Kidd is kind of leaning into what's driving the friction in terms of play between those two by wanting to play a style that doesn't really suit either of those players right now. It may make Chris Staps Porzing as happier,

but it puts him in some weird spots, and it puts the offense in some weird spots, not just with him, but, you know, Reggie Bullock and Tim Hardaway, Jr. And all these guys, like, what they're trying to play and the way they're trying to play just doesn't really fit what they have. Yeah, and so much of the season was spent, has been spent on this psychological stuff, right? Right.

Like, the first game of the season, he's playing 15 guys, and this rah-rah get and look I like the idea that guys who work with each other happy and like working with each other like look at us you know we're a shining example of a team just clicking on all cylinders when there's love and joy and stuff in the group project right I'm just waiting for the athletic story

to come out about this podcast oh the internal the internal strife here Who would write that story? Maybe Marcus, maybe I could get Marcus Thompson to write it. I was about to say, we know who the leaker is, that's for sure. We know who's feeding the athletic.

But to Rob's point, like, at a certain point, we have to play basketball, guys. Like, you got to play the way that most optimizes the talent on the roster and this assuaging people like Chris Stap's Porzingis, like that it sounds good in theory like, you got the 7-3, you know, you know, unicorn on my team

and I need to engage him and I need to get the best out of him. But like at the end of the day, he's a guy with the center of gravity at his freaking nipples, can't freaking back anybody down, can't use his size. He is what he is. He's a fucking stretch big. That's what he is. That's how you got to use them.

Yeah. And we got to embrace reality. man. Like, I understand the, you know, the desire to, like, when you come in and you think, yo, I can get the best out of that guy. But we got to go with what the results have born, man. Yeah. I mean, there definitely was a problem just chemistry-wise on that roster. It's why they got rid of Rick Carlisle and, like, I support a free election to the leadership council. And so I don't really necessarily blame Jason Kidd for focusing on that first and foremost. But there was a certain pragmatism to Rick Carlisle's approach that I can kind of,

start to appreciate, especially when this is a bottom line business. And there keeps being stories about, like, Carlisle and Luca clashing. And maybe that was just like always going to end in tragedy for Carlisle. But he had results, man. This was like one of the best offenses of all time when he was at the controls here. And I do wonder if kid, we're getting to the point where kid maybe needs to stop seeing kumbaya and just feeding Luca the ball when he's in the lineup. Yeah, we're a long way removed from historic offense at this point.

The roster is not that different from what it was then. Yeah. Well, here's a darkest timeline question that's quickly becoming a realistic sort of thing. Like, do you think the Hawks have a better chance of winning a title first than the Dallas Mavericks? I don't think Trey Young is a better player than Luca Donchage. However, I think the people around him better suit his gifts than the people who are around Luca Donchish right now. I don't think there's any way to dispute that.

Yeah, that was the tradeoff of the. the trade, right? Like the Mavericks got the generational like top five all time player, whereas the Hawks got Trey plus a bunch of other stuff to build a context around him. And, you know, I haven't been the biggest fan of the young wings, but at the end of the day, they have two huge six fit seven wing guys, right, which is you absolutely need next to Trey Young. John Collins is an incredible pick and roll partner for Trey Young. And, you know, they got good vets. And again, look, obviously everybody knows I'm in the tank for the Hawks.

But I just think what surrounds Trey Young makes so much more sense. Like, the vision is there. I see how this could work. You know, Trey Young, say what you want. He's already been to a conference finals. Okay. where other guys haven't been out the first round. You know, I get it.

He'd have to play against Kaua Linder. But, you know, the bottom line is like, we've seen how this Hawks thing works out for the best. Now, there's been injuries. There's been, you know, starts and stops to guys like Hunter and Reddish. But we've seen it with the Mavs, man. I've never seen this Luca and Chris Stab's thing hitting on all, you know, gears.

But what we have seen is Luca be kind of unsolvable in a playoff setting, right? And so that's the formula you're starting from. If you're going to make the case that the Mavs are closer, it's that look, we haven't even built the optimal roster yet, and look what he was able to do. You know, like, look what he was able to do

with just slightly better shooting than we have right now. Or, you know, what would it look like if we had more of a real complimentary ball handler who could relieve some of the pressure off him? What would that look like? I think I would still lean toward Luca just for what we've seen him do against one of the more versatile defenses in the NBA and the Clippers, a team loaded with wings that can guard him and they couldn't stop him. Between that and

just the size he has, he's so tough to guard. But Tray Young has been incredible this season and is featured in one of the other Christmas Day games, which, you know, just as the schedule makers intended, the 11th and 12th place in the Eastern Conference teams are going head to head. Nixon Hawks, let's go. All right. Should we pivot to that? one then since Rob just teed us up. Of course. Last one on the docket here is Trey Young the best guard in the east? And this one comes

courtesy of our friend Kendrick Perkins who tweeted out, outside of Trey Young, that young stud, stud capitalized Darius Garland is the second best PG in the Eastern Conference and he should be an all-star reserve this year. Three exclamation points. Carry on. Dot, dot, dot.

I saw this and I thought to myself, that seems wrong. Right? Like, there's so many good players out there, but when you actually do the work of it and you realize how many people are actually out this season, I think the list gets really thin pretty quickly. And so although Young probably not going to play

on Christmas Day, he has before this recent bout with protocols really asserted himself as a top tier guy. And I think this is important, especially because last year he wasn't an All-Star. I think people were questioning whether or not he had that level in him. Yes, I agree.

That was absurd. We had some bonus in the damn All-Star game. and not trade. That is insane. That is the worst all-star snub of my whole fucking life, bro. So bonus. Over a guy who is a quality NBA offense unto himself. Literally, Tray Young steps on the court for his team,

and it's a quality NBA offense by himself. Like, it doesn't even matter who else is out there with him, and he's getting snubbed for, you know, fancy, euros with nice bounce passes. It's ridiculous. Folks at home drink Wasby and xenophobia. No, I was just going to say, we might need to put his name

on mute for this podcast, Subonis, because every time he comes up, it's the third rail issue of group chat somehow. No, like, look, I love Bradbill, right? Like, I love Cal Lowry. More than most people, I just think, Tray Young, what he's done for

the Hawks offense this year, you can't question that. Like, it's because of him. It's because of his vision, his shooting, his just understanding of how to manipulate defenses. Like, he has a, like, he's predate natural at reading defenses and putting guys in the right spots. I think it's true. I think Trey Young is, you know, as far as a league guard is concerned, man, it's him in

the Eastern Conference anyway. This is an unimpeachable season for him for what is one of the, the best offensive teams in the NBA, despite all these COVID absences, all these injuries, no continuity in terms of having the ability to build progress and momentum. Trey Young is doing some amazing things. He's been, he's been great. It's past 12 games, 31 points shooting 40% from three. That'll do. It's pretty good. Not bad. Pretty, pretty good. Where do we put them when we bring in the rest of the league, though? Like we're incorporating all the West guards. Is he still in the top tier? I think he's in the top 15 of the league. I think so.

That's my personal opinion. Just again, if we all recognize that offense is more important than defense, I'm sorry, old school fundamentalists out there that like to think that both sides of the ball are equal. It's not. There's empirical data that supports it. Offense is just harder to generate in this league. As somebody who generates office at the rate that he does, efficiently as he does, he's one of the best. I mean, I just don't see any kind of meaningful distinction or any reason really to put Damien Lillard over Trey Young.

Like, I think, which that means he is a borderline top 10 or maybe just a solidly top 10 kind of player right now. He is, you know, blowing the lid off of a lot of the advanced metrics in terms of guard play. And when you think about teams that are guard-driven who have advanced far in the playoffs, that's a very short list. That is a Steph Curry and maybe that's it kind of list.

And so the fact, or Chris Paul, you know, so the fact that he's been able to do already what they've done in the playoffs is remarkable. The way he's been able to withstand game planning, that his game is still evolving, that he's still this efficient, that he's still driving an elite offense. Young is one of the best players in the league.

There's just no way around that. And you won't see him on Christmas Day, but you will see Lance Stevenson or Wesawundu take the floor. So get excited for that. All right, let's end it there. Thank you to Mike Wargun for filling in on production. Happy holidays, everyone.

I believe we're off next week, but we'll see you in the new year. Justin, can you please stop with your war on Christmas? Wish the people of Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah and Happy Kwanza, please. Happy Kwanza, everyone. We'll see you next time.