The Ringer NBA Show - Rising Stars at All-Star Weekend, Jalen Suggs, and Cade Cunningham vs. Franz Wagner | Upside High

Episode Date: February 22, 2022

J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks begin the pod by sharing their reactions to some of the events of All-Star Weekend and the Juwan Howard incident. They then discuss Jalen Suggs's transition to the NBA from Gonzaga and what steps he can take to move forward in his development. (11:49) Finally, they wrap things up by talking about the viability of Cade Cunningham and Franz Wagner as future All-Stars and debate the upsides and comps for both players. (24:41) Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks Production Assistance: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? I'm JJ John D. Stramski. And I'm Jason Gough, and if you haven't heard, the ringer has gone local. I'm bringing the fire. I'm bringing the rain from the Big Apple with my show, New York, New York. And I'm reping Shy Town with my new show The Full Go on All Things Chicago. We've got episodes three nights a week with all the reaction to the local teams and guests. Plus bonus episodes around all the big games and storylines.

So whether you're uptown, downtown, downtown, in the burbs, or a transplant. Make sure you follow New York, New York, and the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Folks, basketball is so, so very good. Incredible, actually. I can't really get over how great it is. And it's a rainy day here in Louisville, Kentucky. My name is Jaycom, man. This is Upside High. And on Upside High, I'm joined by one of the thought leaders, I think, in the sport, Jonathan Charks. John, how you doing, bud? Thought leaders. I lead no thoughts. I just have them. People can free, freely, not listen to this. Yeah, everybody has free will. I was going to say thought leader is just like one of those funny kind of corporate speak words that you've seen kind of pop up here and there. Anyway, we're in a little bit of a lull here, you know, where a much needed break for the players in the league. Games are going to start back.

We're recording this on Tuesday, but games are going to start back up on Thursday, I believe. So everything's kind of coming back to form there. This weekend, you know, we had the All-Star break. We had the All-Star game, all the different events. there was a young player presence all over the place in that, whether it was like in the skills challenge or the dunk, the dunk contest, which was one of the worst ever, I would say. But on Thursday or Friday night, I'm losing track of time, the Rising Stars game took place. Did you get to check that out, Charks?

So I watched the Rising Stars game because I knew we'd be talking about it on the pod. But I didn't, I'm never been a big All-Star weekend guy. And I wanted to ask you, so I get these emails for the Washington. Post. Shout out my guy Ben Gulliver. He has a weekly newsletter about the NBA. Yeah, Ben's awesome. In the newsletter, he's talking about how the dunk contest really sucked this year and people were complaining about how boring it was and all the stuff. And I'm reading his newsletter and there's all these tweets about how like boring it was. And all I could think was, why would you tweet about how boring something is and not just change

the channel? I don't understand. Well, it was probably like NBA Twitter, right? It was probably like the media sort of Twitter echo chamber of people who are just watching because they have to or was it like just take an average Joe. I wasn't sure, but either way, it's like, why not just change a channel if you find it so boring? Like, what's the point of complaining about it? That's true. There's never a lot of point to complaining. You had an interesting point I wanted to ask you about, you know, quickly here in like the wrap-up survey that we did. Everybody should check out. We had a lot of different voices chiming in on that on the ringer.com.

You had a point about like the way the All-Star game is set up and how it's kind of. set up to fail just by design in the modern day? What was the point you made about that? I wanted to rehash that. Well, I was just saying, all-star games in general, from what I understand, I'm not that all, but from my understanding is they were created in the world of network television where most teams weren't on TV. There was no real way to watch them.

So this might be the only time all year you can watch all the best players in the league in one setting outside of like the playoffs. So it was like a big deal. I remember for sure. I remember in baseball. It was, okay, we're in an American League city. They don't play inner league games back then. So you would never see a National League player unless it's in the All-Star game.

So that makes it a big deal. Now, obviously, we live in a different world. You can watch anyone pretty much anywhere, anytime you want. So to me, the very idea of the All-Star game, it's just not going to be as compelling as it was 40 or 50 years ago when it was created. And it's fine. And there's just no way around that in my moment. mind. Yeah, I think the availability of information has sort of devalued a lot of different things. I was

thinking about when I was growing up, I used to VHS tape every single All-Star game and obsessively watch it because I remember like Mitch Richmond. I never got to watch Mitch Richmond play ever, ever, ever. And just seeing him in the All-Star game, I was like, oh, okay, there he is. There's that. Okay, I got to say, Kyle, you are really showing your hipster cred now. I'm really impressed. You were taping games to watch Mitch Richmond, The Rock. That's awesome. That wasn't why I was taping them. I'm just saying like the value of information was like a lot higher and a lot more scarce. I remember my dad like works in construction and he had a buddy who had like the 1988 All-Star game.

That might have well been like a historical obelisk. Like I'd never seen any of these people. But I'm just saying today it's not as big a deal. So and you think I used to tape like Midnight Madness because I wanted to see the recruits play or the McDonald's All-American game because I wanted to see this high school player play. And you can hop on YouTube and watch any high school player today. play full games and fully scout them before they get to the NBA. And it was like you didn't get that in the past.

It was like little glimpses and you kind of had to piece it together. The Rising Stars game itself, I thought was entertaining. The first game was like to steal something from our buddies over at the press box, fantastic media pod commentary pod. The overworked Twitter joke was that it's sponsored by Clorox and most people were saying that they wanted to pour Clorox into their eyes because it was so terrible. but after that they had a team that would have made us happy i feel like rick barry i don't know if he like directly picked the players on his team but he had mowgli kade jaden mcdaniels he had uh franz

vagner a guy that we'll be talking about a little bit later but they ended up taking an approach that was sort of a non-all-star game approach where they were like playing actual basketball and talking about picking roll coverages and things like that i thought it was pretty pretty interesting to watch what made different this year to what they've done is they added the G League Ignite guys to the all. Instead of making it two teams, there was four teams and they had a little tournament. And each team had, I believe, one Ignite guy. So that kind of added a little extra layer for people like us.

To see these guys in a very different setting against the kind of players, they'll be competing against the next couple over the course of their careers. So that was kind of fun. So you had Scoot Henderson, who is kind of the star of G. ignite, but he's a guy who won't be until two drafts from now. So he would be a high school senior this year. He was there competing against these guys. Then you had three players who will be in this year's draft who are getting first

round talk. It's still kind of in there where they're going. Dyson Daniels, a 6-6 combo guard from Australia, Jaden Hardy, a 6-4 kind of microwave scorer type, and Marjohn-Bochamp, a 6-7, 3-D wing potentially. He's a little older, yeah. They didn't do a ton of stuff, but it was fun to see them in that setting. One thing that you and I were talking about over text was just that physically they, especially,

I mean, it was especially remarkable, and this is something we talked about when we were out at the G League Showcase was just that the athleticism that Scoot has is just so advanced. You know, a lot of times you'll see guys that are that advanced and you hope that they can continue staying challenged and staying adaptable, but he looks comfortable out there. He looked like he belonged. For sure. It definitely seems when you watch them in that setting is that the ignite people, who I believe it's your boy, Rod Strickland is the one kind of running it from behind the scenes.

My boy. Well, you're from Kentucky, so close enough. And then they're definitely looking for athletic ability. They're definitely looking for guys who have the physical tools and thinking through our program, we can improve their skill sets. Because I would say, especially for Daniels and Beauchamp, I guess for Hardy too, is dating to, there's clearly things they have. to work on before they get to the league.

And we'll see if that you're in the ignite will help them. Yeah, these guys are going to sort of bubble up in the conversation as we get near the draft. I was telling you, I'd seen some people talk about how Dyson, his, the chatter around him has kind of slowly come along because, like you said, he has great size. You were making the point that you think he needs to shoot it. I mean, yeah, for his position, I think that's universally, it's true for him specifically, and that is a pertinent point for him. but I think that it's become a sort of a cost of entry thing for guys that are going to handle the ball in the league.

Otherwise, you're going to be like a heavy conditional player. So another thing that happened that was pretty funny over the weekend that, I mean, it's funny on one level. It's kind of disappointing on another. Obviously, you don't like to see things happen in the handshake line. Joanne Howard, big story was that he and Greg Gard, Joanne's the coach of Michigan for people who don't know. And Greg Gard is the coach for Wisconsin. And Joanne, Juan, Jouan's like an outspoken guy.

He likes to chatter and things like that. I mean, I've heard people maybe say he's a little, little passionate, a little hot-headed potentially. Did you get to see what happened with him and Greg Gard at the end of that game on Saturday? I mean, for sure, smack the hell out of the Wisconsin coach. There was contact, dude. It wasn't like, when you watch it in slow motion,

the dude's head, like, really. My favorite was somebody, like, looped it backwards and made it look like he was petting him like a dog no i mean he hit him i was curious to ask you though i mean it's kind of come back franford shill our guy was uh your guy we're talking about people's guys um framfichilla was talking about how you know the reset rule that was maybe what he was thinking michigan was pressing at the end of the game down 16 or whatever it was there were reasons on both sides obviously you shouldn't that this is like numerous incidents for joan and like losing it at the end of the handshake line i was curious

Charks, what's your experience you personally? Are you, are you sort of a fiery? You seem like a mellow type. Were you a fiery? Do you ever get into it in games? Ever have any kind of interactions like that? Any fights? Well, I wouldn't say fights, but I played a lot of posts. And there is the dark arts of the posts, right? Like there's a lot of stuff. The dark arts. There's a lot of stuff you can do down there that necessarily, uh, refs aren't always going to pick up on. The one thing I always did, especially when you bigger players. I remember guarding a guy was like six foot 11. I can't guard this guy So I would pick him up at like half court And just start hitting him

Right Just like doing this You just do stuff like that It's just part of being a big man You just learn how to wrestle down there I mean Joanne Howard's perfect example He's not afraid to smack somebody Across their head

He was a tough dude I know what you're talking about There's a dude that I play against That's pretty big and I always pick him up early Like I just don't let him run Like if he goes to because he's really fast And can get up near the rim and stuff And if what's you got to do

I just annoy the piss out of him Like anytime he tries to take a step i'm just in his way and eventually i've learned that by the end of the game he just kind of gives up but i was also going to say um i can kind of sympathize for howard like i started to tweet something like it would be disappointing if this became a thing that overshadow what he's done because i think developmentally at to tie back to our show like at michigan he's been pretty good i think that he's had pretty you know he's had solid success i'm not quick to judge people because i am sort of notorious for being a psychotic competitor that aside getting into

it with people becoming a different person. But I just, I don't know, it was an interesting story. I wanted to move on and talk about a guy that we haven't really gotten to talk a ton about. He was in the Rising Star competition this weekend. Jalen Suggs, Jalen Suggs, went to the Orlando Magic. I think a lot of people thought that the Toronto Raptors were going to take him there at like four, I believe. Over time, I always forget the slot. I used to really be on top of it, like the numbers. I could tell you like every single one. Well, it's just part of getting old, Kyle. just kind of start slipping. It's okay. Were you one of those, like nerdy, I memorize everything, kids?

Like, I definitely was that. Like, it was just like every single stat. I could just parrot it. But anyway, Suggs came into league. He had sort of a bumpy start. In Summer League, he like sprained his left thumb and then kind of got off, had to leave Summer League early after playing pretty decently well. Comes into the season, uh, Joel Mbede hits him with one of his, like, hard ball swipes and hurts his other thumb.

Embed's kind of notorious for doing that. Like going at the ball super hard. Hurts his thumb, misses 20 games, has been an inefficient shooter. What were your expectations for him coming into the league? Let's start there. What did you think that he was going to be coming out of Gonzaga? I think like everyone else, I was really impressed by his one year at Gonzaga. So he was at Gonzaga.

He wasn't a primary guy, but he was just like this incredible role player for this elite team. And he seemed to really supercharge them because he was. He's a very smart player, very physically gifted. Atkinsaga, he was kind of a secondary playmaker, ran pick and roll, spotted up, cut to the rim, guarded multiple positions, and of course hit that famous shot in the final four. And everyone's kind of thinking, okay, he's already excelled in a smaller role, what would happen if he gets moved to a primary role? And that was kind of the hope for Suggs.

And then it just really hasn't happened so far in Orlando. you said, the main thing is his jump shot has completely abandoned him. Though I wouldn't say it's the main thing, but it's probably a good place to start. He's shooting, what, 22% from three right now. And it's just like a good example of just how hard it is to project that jumper going forward. And when you're a 6-4 guard and you're just shooting, I looked it up. Since he came back from the injury for Embed, he's played about 15 games, and he's shooting

18% from three. And so it's just tough because in Orlando, he's sharing a back court with Cole Anthony, a very ball dominant primary guard. And then Suggs plays a lot off the ball. He does a lot of energy stuff. He defends pretty well already, which is really encouraging. But right now, he just cannot buy a jump shot to save his life. Yeah, and it's really impacting in the notebook I did. I talked about it's impacting the way teams are playing them.

I mean, he gets played in like soft coverage from the big because they, they're, like if he comes around the screen and takes that shot, that's a win. Like, they're happy about that. And that is giving him a little bit of a pad. Yeah, he definitely shot it pretty much better from everywhere in college. And it's a good point that you bring up about, like, hoping that he can transition from being this guy within a good offense because Gonzaga had a great offense. So the pressure, they had guys that could score that commanded some kind of college level gravity. Well, you know, in the NBA, he's coming around these screens and big. Bigs are, you know, bigger, faster, smarter in the NBA.

And they're giving him this kind of cushion that he's not been able to exploit. Like, he's been pretty rough in the mid-range, too, which has been odd. He used to have a pretty decent floater game in Gonzaga. And one of the big things that I've noticed is just that he is, like, way out over his skis a lot of the time. He looks, like, just sped up and really kind of uncomfortable. The parallel that I drew, you know, there are a lot of analytics out there. as I was kind of going in and diving in and looking at the different metrics that we have available to us, somebody that kind of lined up with him was Deerrin Fox in terms of like coming into the league and depending on speed.

Do you think that there's anything there that you can read into about like fast guards coming into the league? What do you think the biggest adjustment is for somebody? Because they're both like high level athletes, pretty fast, pretty explosive. what do you think the adjustment if there is any commonality between athletic guards what do you think the adjustment period is like for athletic guards when they come into the NBA I like when you use the expression like sped up and it's kind of we talked about last week with anthony simons and how he wasn't sped up and I think that's the other half of the Suggs equation right now is when you watch him a lot of times he's just going full speed all the time and then like you mentioned in your piece

sometimes he's just going so fast at the rim and then he gets to the rim and he's like surprised he's there almost and he just not under control he just takes a really faster shot and it's just learning to control that speed I think that's the primary less thing a lot of young guards struggle with

like you kind of mentioned is just okay just because I can go 95 all the time doesn't mean I need to go 95 or I even should right Like if you're on a highway, you know, think about a guy going 85 on a highway. It'd be bad, right? Sometimes you have to go forward to cross the lane to get into the exit.

You can't just be speeding through the exit all the time. That's a good metaphor. Right. Shooting the layup is kind of like getting to the exit, right? There's a window you have to take it in. And like the main thing is, it's like just because once you have the advantage, you don't have to go fast anymore. Like that's kind of the classic.

That's the Chris Paul thing, right? We always say, because Chris Paul, he puts guys in jail. He's not very fast anymore. But once he has the step, he knows I've got him beat. I can slow down. Now the game's playing at my speed, not at your speed. And I think that's the thing Suggs will have to learn in the NBA is just, okay, changing speeds, controlling the way I play.

And I think that's why I'm still encouraged for Suggs is two things. Number one, like that will happen. He is a very smart player. He's got a good, he's always been a good pastor, good. team defender. I believe he will figure that part out over time. And then number two is he's shooting 77% from the free throw line. So for me, that's the number I look at more than threes.

I feel like threes are a big believer in that one. Yeah. Yes. So to me, I see a guy who's shooting 77% from the free throw line. I believe he shot pretty well in college. It would be like 75, I think it was. I got to believe the threes will come around, right? Like I don't really think you're going to shoot.

77% from the free throw line and 22% from three. That just pretty much doesn't happen. Yeah, he was 75.4% from the free throw line. The three-point shooting has always been a little, a little, like you had to kind of pick aside because it wasn't a clear thing. You had to either choose to be a believer or be out on it because, you know, he shot 33.7% in college. I brought up that, like, you could go look at his stats from like summer leagues in high school,

and he was always hovering in that 30% range, the low 30%. I mean, we're way, way down. I think we're like at 22 now. But yeah, like he sat out like 20 games, came back. But I guess it kind of comes down to a question of like what kinds of threes are you taking? Like, right? Because we talked last week about Anthony Simons commands a different response from the defense because he can come off of those screens and in tight spaces take those threes.

And defenses are worried about it. It's kind of the Jamal Murray, Dame Lillard, Steph Curry. It's that skill set that teams worry about. Suggs isn't really playing like that right now. I was interested to think about, you know, his defensive upside as something. We talked a lot about like Drew Holiday Combs were thrown around when he was coming out of college. I still see him as somebody that could be like a pretty high level on ball defender because of his physicality and speed. For sure.

The story with Suggs is always that he actually has a scholarship to Ohio State to play quarterback. and if you know anything about Ohio State quarterbacks that tells you what a high-level athlete he was and I think that even going back to college he kind of played like a football player on the court sometimes he's very physical he's not afraid to get in someone throw his body around which is a good thing defensively

and yeah I think I think Drew was always kind of the ceiling for him that was the comp people had was a Drew kind of player I would say I think that's definitely still in the cards for I guess possible outcome. And I believe in Suggs. I believe in his basketball IQ. I think at this point with the jump shot being what it is,

the worry would be that if it never comes around, maybe he ends up kind of more as an Eric Bledso type would be the concern. Yeah, I think that he's probably, there's a place for like a really versatile utility defender. Like I think that as a shooter, he could get ahead of like a Marcus Smart. And that's another guy, Marcus Smart,

another kind of player he would kind of resemble to. I like that calm. Yeah, it's a guy that probably would need to play with like high level ball skills around him, you know, to kind of compensate because he gives you some things. The pace thing I think is interesting and you brought up Chris Paul about guys that come into the league ahead. And the point that I made in the piece was just about like exposure to types of problem solving. Suggs has sort of like blitzed people his whole life to use the reverse metaphor based on what he did in high school. I mean, and I think that the speed and the pace, and the things like that are going to get there. I think as a playmaker, he's probably not your primary guy. Do you think? I mean, he's probably going to need, I think the ceiling is already pretty lowered for him in terms of being a primary offensive guy.

Yeah, we'll get into that. I think it was interesting about that. It's all like to be a primary guy, you have to be given the keys to the, like you have to be putting that role. Yeah. Right. And I don't think he was necessary that much worse than Cole Anthony last year. And now Cole was being moved into a primary role.

year. So I don't know. Like I don't and then it's like he can do other things is probably the thought is we don't necessarily need him to be the primary guy and maybe as he comes along that can come back around. I think that would be the idea right now. There's there's nothing in Suggs's profile this year that says let's make him a primary but there's so many other things he can do to earn minutes that maybe as time goes on you can move him back into that role. If his jumper comes around which I believe it could. That opens up so many more possibilities for his game. The Cole Anthony thing is something that we keep circling in this conversation.

Do you think that there's much of a future for him? I mean, two smaller guards. It's kind of like, it's a little different than like the sexton garland dynamic in that you have like a pretty clear established like difference between the two. I mean, I've always been more of a garland guy, not to get on that. But, you know, what do you think about the Cole Anthony's Suggs dynamic going forward? Do they need to kind of, is one of them going to get moved? imagine what would you do if you were running the Orlando Magic? I would look at a different player.

I guess this is a good enough segue as any. But when they were draft so, Suggs was not the only lottery pick Orlando took this year. They also took Franz Wagner, a Juan Howard. It's all coming together here. Do you like that? And it all comes around. It all comes around. And I think my thought, like with most people, was I like Franz a lot, but I thought, okay, he's a very good secondary player. Jalen, they're drafting Jalen to be the primary, and Franz can be a setup guy. Well, I've seen enough now to think it might be reversed. Forget Cole and Jalen. To me, Franz is the guy, and then it's how do you fit around Franz?

And we can talk about that in a second, I guess. I think that's a perfect tease. And just for the spirit of arguing and having a good time, we're going to debate him. Franz versus the guy that I've been really high on. And so I think you kind of talk about this as you go away from NBA drafts and we shift and say, okay, did we value this guy correctly? Did we value that guy correctly? It's interesting to look at in hindsight.

Somebody we want to measure him against is Kate Cunningham, the guy who went at the top of the draft. But before we do that, we're going to take a break. So I feel like, Charks, you and I have had, and I mentioned this at the top of the piece, I felt this kind of energy towards Kate Cunningham. You tell me if I'm paranoid. I want to talk about that also.

Well, okay, you read the piece. I've been a long time kind of cade believer. I know a lot of cade believers, people who are into him. And there's been a dialogue about him, people that we've had to win over. There have been people in the middle like I'm going to wait and see. You know, I'm not sure about him. And then there have been people who have been flat out like he sucks out. You guys overrate him.

You hipsters have done it again, that kind of thing. Am I being paranoid? Do you think I'm being overly defensive here? Am I right or wrong? It's just felt like there's been an energy to kind of doubt Cade. That's what I've said. I would say one, people love to doubt. Like there's always, there's no reason to not to be paranoid.

Like everyone wants to doubt everything in this modern age. But I thought this sentence you had at the start. So to give us some background, so Kyle wrote a great piece, rookie breakdown. And our original thought was, okay, let's talk about Jalen Suggs and Cade Cunningham, kind of the lead guys in this piece. So I'm like watching Phil. I'm like really breaking down Pistons and Mood. magic games. And I'm watching these games and I'm thinking, there's an elephant in the room here

and that the best player of these guys we're not even talking about is Franz Wagner. And so, Kyle, your piece, and you say here, you say, I felt that about Cade Cunningham, who I think some saw as a hipster champion, a chosen one for LARP or draft nerds who once again got excited by the idea of something rather than the reality. I thought that was really well put. Well, thank you, man. It's nice to get one compliment about my writing from John Charks for a change. Well, you know. Well, because you asked me like, oh, we're telling people? Are we telling people?

Why not? You already brought it up. I just said, I thought it was really good, but it's a very different style. So it's hard for me to really talk about how you wrote it just because there are so many personal anecdotes, which is great. It's just not the way I usually write these kind of things. So it's hard for me to get feedback. John, people know. we've established i'm you tease me all the time i'm a hipstery kind of a person i have i have

i have uh i have snobby sensibilities you've you've outed me people people know how are dynamic on that okay well i think the point is like with kade going back even to last year at oklahoma state and i i mean you said you know people who like kate everyone like kate it wasn't like kade was some out there guy there were doubters well there's always doubters and i think i was a doubter in a sense that i was never quite sure i never quite saw i never quite like why everyone was so excited about it always felt like he would make one nice pass people like okay this is amazing player and it just felt like he was being crowned without necessarily doing all that much in my mind i just never saw like i saw the potential but i never saw the production

that would indicate the potentials for sure going to happen this guy let's anoint him number one that always struck me as kind of odd as opposed to you you saw things i mean like evan mowbly had a he didn't have like a thunderous like holy shit wow this guy's this guy's an unstoppable score but he did things defensively obviously that were really incredible I mean at the college level yeah it just it always seemed to me as more open I was a mowgli guy it always seemed to me more to open than people were making it out to be and I think that's why at a certain level this like a little bit of a backlash started to brew because it was like well why are we so sure K's going to be this all-star all-MBA player like what what in the

numbers or in the way he's playing is going to be like, why is that a for sure thing? And I think we're seeing it now, not that he's not a good player, but it's not a for sure this guy is going to be like an MVP level player, which is in my mind how he was portrayed in college. Tell me if I'm wrong. Was he not put in that kind of category by a lot of people? I think some people thought that he was going to be MVP level. I always kind of had him like his ceiling to me was I thought that he and Mobley both could get in that like top 10 to 15. range, like players in the league, which is, like, I think, extremely high praise. I think, like, people, I feel like the consensus has come down a little bit from that.

Like, most people probably don't see Cade in that range or maybe potentially an All-Star. I mean, you think Mobley could be the best player in the league. I think that's a pretty good draft any year that somebody's like that. But I think that you're right about the counting stat production has never been a thing that is going to blow you away with Cade. to me like kate is much more of a like malleable can go on or off ball can you know he's a flexible kind of offensive piece and i don't know that he's necessarily like a dominant score type which i think but but i also think that the thing that people got excited about and i make this point in the

piece is that like there was a player type in that like 2018 to 2020 range that was putting up crazy stats carrying the offensive load getting a whole bunch of assist being the engine of like a heliocentric offense I think people got excited about that archetype and they saw Cade and they thought that he could fit that archetype. Yeah. And I think the first thing to start with Cade right now is just off the top, he was listed at 6-8-230 in college. And then he comes to the NBA and all of a sudden he's 6-6-220. And like that might not sound like that big a deal, but it really is when you're not a plus athlete. Like that is a – I put those two things – that to me is a big concern for Cade. I watch him at the NBA level.

I don't see a player with a lot of physical advantages over the guys he's going up against. He kind of looks like an average size two guard, a bigger point guard without an elite first step, who can't really just demolish smaller players inside or blow by slower players off the dribble. It feels like everything with Cade is really, really difficult. And he has a high skill level, so he's still able to succeed to some extent. but I watch him out there I just don't see a guy with many physical advantages and that's just going to make it harder for you

to really get into that superstar level. It is. I think that's right. But I think he does have a plus four wingspan as something we should just mention. But I think that something I brought up in the piece is just that he had a proclivity in the past. Like I remember when I saw him, I feel like he's lost weight

and I think he's like changed his body type and I brought this up on a prior episode. Whenever he bullies players and switches, And he did this summit Oklahoma State. He did a little more posting up. He did a little bit more of that kind of like fallaway game or he'd bully a switch and get to the lane and shoot like a baby hook. I think that he is trying to play in a style and in a body type that doesn't serve him.

And my kind of point that I feel about Cade right now is that his plus pluses as an offensive player, which to me are like he's a very clever like manipulator. he like in terms of like creating passing windows and things like that when he i think that he should become a more like physical guard as opposed to be in like sort of a big wing size guard who doesn't have the physical traits like you were talking about because he doesn't like eviscerate people with like speed or anything like that um i feel like he should kind of embrace that more luca hardened thing where you slow down and you play more physical i mean yes he should not try to base his game on his off his speed, no question.

And I think we're like, okay, yes, the Luca Harden thing. I think that's ultimately why he went number one. And what I look at what that kind of stuff is, if you're going to tell me that, because people say, Luca's not an elite athlete, this is true. But if you're going to tell me your game is based on you're just so skilled that you can just wreck fools with your skill level and you don't need to be the fastest player or the biggest player on the floor, it's like that is true. There are players like that.

well then I got to see you do it you know what I mean like we the thing with Luca coming into the draft was he was the best player in Europe already at 18 so there was a track record for believing that he could overcome whatever lack of physical skills he had to make to succeed at a very very very high level with Cade we're still waiting for that to happen right like so like you compare him to Suggs so what we're talking with Suggs is okay Suggs is this elite athlete who has to learn how to use his physical tools and and slow the game down, all this kind of stuff. But he already has the physical tools. And so you believe the mental progression will come with time. There really aren't the physical tools with Cades. So it's not as easy to believe, oh, there's so many ways for him to get better because he's not an elite athlete. It isn't like he's learning how to use these incredible things. He doesn't know how to use them yet.

He only has what he has. And he's already making, in a lot of ways, he's already making the most out of what he has already. Right. So for me. So you think he's going to apply it. I'm not sure he's in a plateau, but I'm not going to believe he's going to be his skill level is that high where he doesn't need physical abilities until I can see it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that he needs to balance. He's in a similar situation to Giddy, honestly. I think Giddy is a more talented kind of colorful playmaker in terms of like the different

types of passes he can make. But the scoring balances that. If you're a great playmaker, like I've always made this point that that's like the Rubio thing. Like Rubio's this outrageously talented playmaker and he would have been like a multiple time All-Star if he could score the ball consistently, and he just has never really done that. So it's like for Cade, his challenges are different than Suggs. I think it's like Suggs needs to weaponize his physicality by getting command of his pace. I think that Cade's pace is fine. Like if you look at his pick and roll like efficiency, another thing that hurts him is that his teammates just can't hit a freaking shot and it's been tight. And he doesn't have a space or things

like that. But he has to become a consistent score. Like the shooting has been kind of up and down. I believe in the shooting, and I think that as a shooter, he's probably, honestly, ahead of where Luca was. And I think that he's in a decent spot. The question is, like, the easy offense, like the bullying people. And that's kind of why I, like, Luca gets in the middle of the floor, even grown men, and he was, like, getting easy buckets. I was going to see, yeah, Luca, to me, the number with Cade, and I think the number with any primary option is two point percentage. Can you consistently create good shots around the basket? And then also free throw attempts, right?

That's easy money. You're talking about like easy baskets. Where's your easy money coming from if you're going to be a star? That's the question. Everything is very hard for Cade. So my thought with him coming out was he could be kind of like a Chris Middleton, Paul Pierce type. But both those guys are bucket getting machines, right? He has to show he can do that.

And that's not an easy skill to acquire or develop. That's something you kind of have. Though obviously Middleton got a lot better over the course of his career. And my thought with Cade and, and like don't kill me for this. Is this your comp that you said will get you kicked off of the internet? Is this the one?

Okay. I'm just bracing myself for what you're going to say. The cockamamie king, John Charks. Let's hear it. So does he have some Malcolm Brogden in his game? I know you think that's like offensive, but I don't think.

Wasn't Brogden, didn't he make an all-star game at one point? I think he made, didn't he make one? I mean, he's a $100 million man. You know, he's 18 and 8 point guard of a, you know, decent team. But big role in a Milwaukee Bucks team, that was awesome. Well, Kade's bigger, and I think he's better, or younger. How much bigger?

So Baragdin's 6.230, Kade's 6,6, 220. They're not that much different in size. And Baragin has longer arms, long arms too. Yeah, Kade needs to get on like a 5,000 calorie diet. I think he needs to just bulk up. That's my opinion. Okay, we should talk about Franz, though. Well, I was going to say, we need to compare him to France.

So I'll pitch just to you to, so we can concisify, which isn't a word this, a word. If you were building a team, the premise of, this is that you're saying you think that Franz is a better overall prospect. Why would you pick Franz over Cade in the simplest way? We'll start from there. Well, I think Franz can do everything Cade can do, except he's three inches taller and significantly more athletic. And that's like to break it down really simply. I look at Franz as a guy, he's kind of the opposite of Cade and that he had a smaller role in college. Now he's come to the NBA and been really good in a bigger role. And to me, he's been so good and he's still like the third option in Orlando right now behind they've got

Cole Anthony they've got Suggs they've got Wendell Carter it's a pretty like franz is kind of just like finding his way there he's not been given the keys to the offense but I look at him and franz is averaging the same amount of points as cade but he's shooting like 60% higher from the four so franz is at 51% from two K's at 42 44% from two franz is six-night, two-25. He has physical advantages because he, he's not like, he's not like, obviously, like this elite super crazy, you know, Darius Miles back from the athlete, but he's fast enough and he's six foot nine. When he gets to the lane, he can just shoot over guys. That's what he has that Kay doesn't have. And to me, he's a very smart player. He can move the ball. He can defend

multiple positions. He can spread the floor. He can get his own shot. I look at Franz to me, I think he could be the second best player in this class when it's all said and done behind Mobley. Yeah, he can't get his own shot. I don't know that my counter to what you were saying and to sort of tack on the point that you made, 66.4% of Franz's attempts are in the paint and 44.1 of Cades are.

He's getting to the basket and leveraging that size. Like he's big. The problem of me is I like both of these guys, but we're just for the sake of argument going at it. The thing that I would counter you on is I don't think that he does exactly everything that Kate does well for me, and that's the crux of this. In what way does, what can he not do that Cade can do? I think that Cade is like a significantly more advanced playmaker, and I think that Cade's shooting upside is higher.

He's a way more versatile shooter. He's a month younger than Fron's right now. I think that like in terms of like flexibility, the big argument for me that you didn't add in there was just that we've talked a lot on this show about like three, four switchability, which is those are the guys in the NBA that can be the toughest to stop. you start thinking about the Kauai's, the LeBrons, the Durants, the guys that have the size of forwards with the playmaking skill sets of like perimeter players, which today it's not as compartmentalized,

but to have somebody that could guard those positions and give you offensive pluses, to me, that's the biggest argument for Franz. But if I'm looking at Cade, I think that Cade is, I sent you this thing that I made up a year ago called like the Pick and Roll Pyramid, which is a player that can ideally, hypothetically, and for Cade, this is the question right now, scored all three levels and can manipulate help once it comes. I don't think that that's something you can really grow into when you come into the league. I think that Cade is way ahead of him on that front.

Okay, I've got a couple counters for you there. Okay, go ahead. Number one, which one of those players scores more out of the pick and roll as a rookie? Do you know the answer to that question? Well, it's going to be Franz because he's getting the more efficient, easy offense right now. Well, then, okay, number two, which one of those players passes more efficiently out of the pick and roll as a rookie? What is that based on, though? What are you based on? What's the passing? Just turnovers? Well, I'm looking at like his synergy numbers in terms of passing or scoring out of the pick and roll. Who's been better at it as a rookie?

I'm pretty positive Kade's carrying a bigger load than he is. And also, those efficiency metrics are based. And then I have a second point off that. So, yes, Kade is carrying a bigger load. Is that because he deserves to carry a bigger load or just because he's carrying one, right? So you, and I think Kate is a very good passer, but I think Franz is being underrated as a passer. Because if you look at their numbers, Cade actually averages a much lower ratio of assist to turnovers than Franz does. So Cade's at one point, I look at 1.5 assist to turnover.

Franz is at 1.9. So what that's saying is, Franz has been better with what he's been given than Cade has been given. The only thing Cade's proven right now is that he can take more shots than Franz, and he can pass more than Franz in terms of volume. And that's role on the team. That's not necessarily because he's better at it. Franz has been better than Cade. He has been in a smaller role, but what do you want Franz to do exactly? How could he prove that he's better if he's not becoming the opportunity?

Well, to address the turnover thing, the turnover percentage thing, it is definitely there. But if you look down at the bottom of the league in terms of, and this is something I brought up in the notebook, the efficiencies for for rookie point guards, it's pretty typical for it to be low like that. And I think that like in terms of, I think that Cade is serving more as an offensive primary. And another thing that I would say is those metrics are driven by whether or not players convert the passes that are made to them.

And I think that Cade is throwing a lot more pain on the canvas in that sense on a team that is wildly inefficient scoring the ball. Like I think that like the misoptimization of him, they're contingent things there. So my other question for that is, is Orlando some elite offensive team with dead-eye shooters around Franz that he's just like getting the ball to?

No, I think that the primary scoring that we're talking about is really swinging the efficiency metric there. Like, in fact, I readily admit that all of this is contingent on Cade growing into that guy that can get his easy offense. But I think that the game has slowed down

to the point for him. It is in the process of slowing down to the point where, I think that he is going to get there. Because he's a very smart sequential player, I think, in a way that Franz is just now starting to explore. But to me, I look at it like this. So Kate has to grow into getting easy offense

to unlock the rest of his game. Whereas to me, Franz already has the easy offense, and now that can flow into the rest of his game if he's given more opportunities. So that, to me, is a much easier jump to make. Like with Franz, the question is not, can he do X things is will his team give him the opportunity to do X things? I think they almost certainly will. Whereas with Cade, I think it's a much more open question.

Can he grow into those things? I believe in that. And I guess that's the difference. I mean, that would be, I'm not saying that you're like an outright Cade doubter. And I love Franz. Like I said, I think he's awesome. But I think that with Cade, I'm a believer that he'll figure out a way to get that easy offense because he has in the past. dead middle game. And I think that his shooting upside is, I mean, I personally believe that it's higher.

I don't know that he's going to become an elite shooter in the NBA. He's been really inconsistent on that front. But I think that his skill set will set him up to do it. I could see him being a dribble pull-up shooter, catch-and-shoot off movement. I think that he's ahead of France. When you say Kate has gotten easy offense in the past, you're not referring to Oklahoma State, right? You're talking about his high school career. He has never, like, bullied people in the way that some of these other big players have. Like he's always kind of, but I will say that like I've seen him at different levels get in the lane and score easier offense. I have. At Oklahoma State, it was a similar thing where he's playing on a team. Of course, you can easily counter and say you're falling into a trap of defending him

constantly based on his team because a good player. I mean, he must be a very unlucky player. It's going to for Kay. He's never had these teammates. His teammates just always keep failing him. It's really unfortunate. Yeah, it's true. It's a really tough way to be. No, I do believe that he'll get there. I just think that he, I believe in, like, the adjusting the play style thing. And I think that's something that'll happen. But I don't know, I like Franz. I feel, I feel bad here acting like I don't, because I do. Okay, I guess I'll say with Franz, what I'll say to like take the K part out of it, what I would do if I was Orlando is I would run a heck of a lot more of my offense to Franz going forward. I would say, this guy's six foot nine. He can get his own shot. He can get to the lane. He's a very

smart player. He's pretty unselfish too. He doesn't force a lot. And I think that's something I didn't quite realize, even going back to his college days, is we all kind of put him in this bucket of wow, this guy's a great role player. I mean, in Michigan, he wasn't their leading

scorer. He really was a guy who, like, made things happen in the crevices and just made it work for himself. Always want to make things happen in the crevices. That's a good thing. Always. Always. So with, I would say Orlando, I would say, hey, Franz, bro, you're the man. Like, I'm giving you the keys to the ship and I'm seeing

where you can do and then I'm letting Suggs play off Franz and I'm telling Cole like you're going to have to get in line because Franz is the guy unless we draft someone in this year's draft better than Franz Franz is the guy we want to see what he can do what do you think

I was trying to find a comp for him it's just funny because I think even did it ourselves we talked about Franz earlier we've done this on this show and we were talking about Kevin Herder and Gordon Hayward like everybody else because we absolutely refused to make cross-racial comparisons. If you remember, I compared, I said he kind of reminded me of Lou Alding a little bit early in this season.

That was a good one. What do you think about Brandon Ingram? For Franz. Six-nine guy point forward, yeah. I don't know that he's the same type of like shot creator. Now like shot maker, Ingram became that later on. I had written down in my notebook, modern debt lift shrimp, but they're both German. They're both chairman.

So, I don't know. I just think that the playmaking upside. Kate is on a different floor that like he's on a different trajectory and you're weighing two different things like I believe in like the shooting the versatility and the playmaking upside and Kate is no slouch as a team defender he's pretty damn good and on that level for that player type anyway we love both of these players I guess well a couple more things about Franz so we'll close it off I got to get it in there I got to get in there slip it in I think I think number one playmaking especially when you're a bigger player is so dependent on your role on the team I think

think Franz has a lot of hidden playmaking ability. He's not gotten a chance to fully show it. I think as his role increases, the numbers said I think it was Franz is at like 48 touches a game, Cades at like 78. I'm like, man, if you give Franz those touches, I bet you good things that happen. And what I'm looking- We don't know that though, because defense has responded to you differently once you cross a certain threshold. And that's when those skill sets to start to percolate and we get a different idea. That's where with young players, it's a hypothetical,

right? It's all hypothetical. It's all projecting. We don't know for sure. All that can base off is what we've seen so far. The physical tools, the feel for the game, how that can grow with time.

I think for me with Franz, where I'm sitting right now is, I kind of like we mentioned, I think Mobley's in his own category. After Mobley, there's a lot of like 6-8, 6-7, 6-66-9 playmakers. There's Franz, there's Scotty Barnes,

there's Josh Giddy. It's a very strong class. And we'll talk about Barnes and Giddy a lot more in the coming weeks. I'm going to put that down for something to talk about. But I think with Franz, where I look at him compared to the other guys, I think Franz is the most well-rounded player of that group of four. I look at Scotty Barnes. I don't think he's a good as shooter as Franz.

No. I look at Josh Giddy and Cade, not as good as score. And I don't know if Franz probably doesn't quite have the highs of some of those guys. But I'm a big believer, especially at that side. And like if you're consistently good in every category, there's a force multiplier effect that Franz has that these other guys don't have that makes it easier to build around. Like Franz is a guy. I don't think he's getting talked about enough. Obviously, he's playing for a very small market and a smaller role on a very bad team.

This is a guy. If you're an NBA fan, this is a guy to know. He's a comer. And like I always say younger brothers. on the same team. Mo Wagner's younger brother, Franz, always believe in younger brothers, baby, always believe in him. Yeah, Franz is like that indie band that gets written about in pitchfork

and like in a couple years or now people will be like, oh, wow, yeah, he actually had a good album a while back. Anyway, that's a really nerdy comparison. He's a guy that you should check out. Like, if you like basketball, Franz, the waste, there's not a ton of wastefulness in his game because he's exploring in controlled measures, whereas Kade, like you were talking about,

they were just like, here's the full buffet, have at it, go at it. We're terrible. We're going to continue to be terrible. Anyway, so thanks for joining us every week. This is what we do. If you're, if you're listening to the show for the first time, if you're back, thanks for listening. This is upside high. We talk about young players, the youth movement. Charks, what are you working on right now? I'm actually getting started on a Jaden Ivy piece. I think we'll talk about him maybe next week. He's probably the other guy. Everyone in the drafts been talking about Jabari Smith, Ched Holmgren, Paolo Banchero. Jaden Ivy's a Purdue guard. To me, he's in that.

conversation. He's a guy people will be talking a lot more about pretty soon, if not now. Oh, the Big Ten people have been hitting me up all over the place. They're like, hey, man, Big Ten, a lot of, you know, check out Jay Navi. I'm like, I have eyes. It's been a good year for the big time. I have eyes and a pulse. I've seen Jay Navi. I'm familiar with him. We're going to hit on him soon. So all right, folks, thanks for joining us. Thanks to Chris Sutton, who's jumped in and is going to be producing us. Appreciate that. And Steve Allman is leaving us. He's my enemy for life. That's what I said. Now you leave the pod. You're my enemy for life. and I'm never, ever going to forgive you.

Well, Kyle, what are you working on? Don't let do it for me. Get your plugs in. What are you working on? I jump to projects to take a little longer, so I don't always like jumping in just being like, well, I'm working on this thing. I'm going to be on this project for a little bit.

So I'll talk more about that as we. Well, people want to know. Keep plugging it. Plug it every week. Keep your eyes peeled. It's coming. So, all right, guys. For John, it was good to see you, buddy.

Yeah, as always. Peace.