The Ringer NBA Show - Rising Teams in the East, Setting Teams in the West (Ep. 177)

Episode Date: December 12, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor react to Victor Oladipo’s transformation into a star (4:15), debate why the Oklahoma City Thunder superteam hasn't worked (17:54), and analyze the Toronto Raptors’ surprising success (29:09). Then, they gauge whether the dominant Rockets will contend with the Warriors (43:34), speculate around LeBron’s future (51:22), and consider which Western Conference teams will rise to playoff contention (56:20). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Conent. K.A. Kevin O. Backtrack? Kevin! You know, Bruno, I look forward to that every Tuesday morning. I just find it's too funny. It's good. It's good.

How are you doing this morning? How's things? I'm doing well. Let's get that out of the way because I goofed about the Backtrack thing. Last week on our Ringer NBA show, you were fired up about Tom Tibido. Now, maybe, listen, you were on the West Coast, probably didn't get a lot of sleep, not at home, right? Sleeping in a hotel for a week. And then you wake up and you're surly and you're mad about. Jimmy Butler playing 40 minutes on a back-to-back and you say, you know what? Blow it up.

Get rid of Tom Tibido. And then the ringer puts out a tweet quoting you saying I would fire Tom Timido tomorrow. And immediately I see you respond to the tweet and you're like, well, actually, I said that in haste. And to, hey, to your credit, you got some love for taking it back for saying, hey, that was an in the moment. And so in this age of the hot take, you, I don't know how this works for you, but somehow you come out on top on this. All right. Okay. With that, with that Tibido comment, I support everything I said except for the first part.

I think everything was fair, like ripping Tibido for the rotation for kind of disregarding, you know, every study when, comes to minutes health and recovery. But the part about firing him was wrong, right? That part was wrong. And that part, I shouldn't have said it should be more like really any other coach we might be talking about him being on the hot seat. The conversation would be a little bit different. But I think with Tibbs, it's really different because people kind of joke about it. They're like, oh, he plays a starters into the ground. But really, it's like, yeah, he does play starters into the ground. And how can we make it better? So I think that's really what the conversation should be. And hopefully, you know, within the Wolf's organization, they're able to really effectively get to Tibbs to tweak his rotations.

That's really, I think, what it should be because Tibbs is a good coach. He's a great basketball mind. And he's super invested in his teams. And that's more than what I think every coach in all of sports can give. Like, Tibbs is all in, right? And maybe sometimes, like, that puts him into positions where he feels like he's going to play his best guys for 40 minutes. But you really don't. So hopefully he's able to evolve in the same way like a player can.

It's never too late to evolve. When the ringer put your quote out there for the world to see, did it make you have second thoughts about running around with the backpack of dynamite that you have on your back at all times? No. No, I only usually say what I mean. But that was really just kind of an in-the-moment thing. I always say what I mean.

But that was something where it was just a little too far. And even like during the podcast after I said it, I was like, I was thinking to myself, I probably should have said that. I should have said that a different way while we're recording. But it is what it is. You know, I hope the turmoil is able to reach their potential because Carl Towns is too good. Wiggins can be too good. And Jimmy Butler is the man.

That's for sure. All right. So let's get to what has happened since we last spoke. I've seen a couple of teams since we last spoke. But let's start with the Eastern Conference and what has gone on there. The first of which is over the course of the last week and then yesterday with the announcement of the Eastern Conference player of the week being Victor Oladipo, it now puts the Paul George trade back in the forefront because at the time that was roundly criticized. People did not think that they got near enough value for Paul George. And now we look and it appears I think they are exceeding people's expectations.

I think that's fair to say. Certainly, Oladipo is exceeding everybody's expectation by a pretty wide margin. And it is going to be no surprise if he is on the Eastern Conference All-Star team. Meanwhile, Oklahoma City has really struggled to find any level of consistency so far. And so, oh, and by the way, and Sabonis has been very good too, right? A big change in his game as he was for sure miscast in what. they were trying to, how they were trying to use him in Oklahoma City. So now I ask you,

and I know you're going to be writing something about Ola Depot for this week, is it too soon to revisit the return that Indiana got, given what Victor has done so far? I think that trade, you know, at the time I said something along the lines, like this is a no risk trade for Oklahoma City. And I also said that Victor Ola Depot was a kind of essentially a salary dump. One of those statements was like dead ass wrong. And that was the second one. Oladipa wasn't a salary dump. He has turned into a very good player. But I still think that deal was the right deal for Oklahoma City to make, given their circumstances. I still think Indiana probably should have gotten a draft pick out of that, given the situation. But with that said, players can

change, players can evolve. Paul George could leave in the summertime, you know, Victor Oladipal could turn into a star, which he has. So in that sense, I don't know if it's fair to question exactly what they gave up, maybe, as much as questioning, you know, I'm questioning myself. I'm questioning, you know, some of the reaction to that deal. And I'm questioning, like, the way we think about these deals. Because with Ola Depot, you know, tomorrow, like on the article I have coming out, it's really about how he transformed himself as a player through, you know, changing his diet. through changing his game and working differently this summer than he has in the past. And it's like, this is a guy I had ranked number one in 2013.

I love them as a prospect. This is a guy that went second in the draft. You know, this is a guy through four years of his career, I had four different head coaches and four different systems. It's like there was so little focus on his situation this summer. It's almost like a lesson. next time a deal like this happens, there's so much more to look at when assessing these deals at the time that they happen

more than just the individual player. Because when you look at Oladipa, you see a guy that was plateaued, you know, across four seasons. But if you look at everything else, it's like, well, why did he plateau? So it's kind of, his development has kind of made me think a little bit differently

when it comes to these trades that happen or these free agent signings that happen. Any decision, because there's so much more that goes into a player success or failure than just themselves. I don't know if that's more deeper than you were looking for, but that's the way I'm feeling about it. No, and there was something that we've talked about over the course of the last couple of years

on this show, which is sometimes with guys, like it is very, very difficult to make your, sometimes it could be four or five years into their career. And that's not, I think in the past, especially when kids were in college more,

and prep basketball was a different situation than it is now, that after about three years, generally you could get a pretty good read on what a guy was going to become in the NBA, or certainly after five years in. Your opinion was rather solid on what he was going to be or what he is in the NBA. And that has changed dramatically. It used to be that Chauncey Billups was an outlier. He was a guy that was highly drafted, and then it might be six, seven, eight years into the career before he becomes, you know, an all-star caliber player, a guy leading teams to a regular Eastern Conference finals appearances, a guy that, you know, is considered one of the better players in the league.

I was watching last night very late. I had on the Raptors Clippers game, and I believe at one point towards the end of the game, Kyle Lowry went to the free throw line and the announcers were talking. talking about him. They're like, this is a guy that did not make his first all-star appearance until, I believe they said, nine years into his career. Yep, real late bloomer. Yeah, and we talked about Tobias Harris, right, earlier this year when he was playing so well for Detroit. And I think it's just another example of, and I think that's what, you know, if there's anything that's going to be able to change maybe the way we think in the future, it is that, hey, and especially, I mean, it was even worse with Sabonis, right?

decision on what Subonis was or was going to be as an NBA player was foolishness, right? Because you just, we don't know. Absolutely. Right? We just don't know. And so what happened with him is, you know, a third of his shots were threes last year. And now 6% of them are threes. And guess what?

He's a guy with great footwork, awesome post moves, and he's finishing everything within three feet of the basket at an insane clip. Which is exactly what he should be doing, right? Like there are times where he's going to be unplayable or not useful, but he's still an extremely useful player that they figured out how to use his skill set in Indiana. And the other thing on Oladipo is this. He is also a different player this year, of which I know you're going to be touching on. Kevin Pelton wrote about it.

I guess it was about a week ago. And I recall reading that he was talking about his off-the-due. dribble like pull up threes right a guy um and that how that can affect an offense and how much uh how much better oladipo has gotten at it um obviously his usage has gone way up but anyway the in in the course of the article he said he has already hit up hit more pull up threes off the dribble than he had all of last year in okoma city and this was like 20 games into the season which is rather incredible And he clearly got much, much, much better at doing that. And so, I don't know, man.

I mean, he is having a outstanding season. And I think when people saw across the bottom line that he scored 47, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Even if we thought he was going to be really good, a guy that drops 47, you know. I think, you know, with Oladipo, I mean, the big part of it is certainly his three-point shooting off the dribble. That's a significant part of it. Some of the other stuff, you know, I don't want to go into everything, like, with the article, but really, I would say a lot of it has to do with his body. He's changed his body. Really, I think, took a different approach to attacking drills, working with different trainers, working with different gyms. There was a lot that went into his summer.

And it's funny because, like, three years ago, we were talking about the 2013 draft class as one of the worst draft classes in history. Michael Carter Williams winning rookie of the year, but that's like, it's the perfect example. of why you can't judge a class. You can't judge a player, like you said, with Sabonis, after one season. You look back at that class now. You get Janice Antenacompo, C.J. McCollum, Rudy Gobert, Otto Porter,

Stephen Adams, Dennis Schrooter. You got some really good players. Then you guys, get guys like Alan Crabb, Cody Zeller, Nerlands-O-L, Contavius Callowulf Pope, Kelly Olenic, Gorgi, Zhang, Tim Hardaway. You got a lot of good talent. It's not a great draft, but it's got some, you know, really good talent.

Now you have Oladipo, potentially. rising to the top five of a redraft for that class. It's just, it's fascinating because I think with Oladipo, so much of it had to do with his own game taking a different approach this summer, but also had to do with a situation. I mean, Indiana is the first team that's really put him into a situation for him for him to be himself. In Orlando, he kind of transitioned between being a point guard and a shooting guard, and then they drafted Delford Payton, and they had, and they invested in Evan Fornier, and then in Oklahoma City, he's playing next to Russell Westbrook, the highest usage player ever. And that's, in putting Oladipo off ball, it's kind of the opposite

of what you want to do. You want to be integrating him as a lead ball handler. And he wasn't able to do that in Oklahoma City. He didn't have many transition opportunities. He didn't have those chances to really attack the rim because of Westbrook. And that's not a fault of Oladipo. It's not a fault of Westbrook. It's just what the situation was. And now he's in a spot really at the perfect time of his career when he did have the best summer that he's ever had in terms of working and improving getting into the best shape of his life. It's not a cliche. It's the truth. And he's finally got the opportunity. And what's happening? He's dropping 47 on the nuggets in overtime. Dude's beasting. And I think it's for real. I mean, I know there's

probably like a lot of doubt that it might be for real. But the thing is, man, everything he put into the summer and everything he's shown, I think it's sustainable. And I think this is a new player. Also great head on his shoulders. I was a huge fan of his in college, much like you were. And I actually had an opportunity to meet him before he was going into the NBA draft because Victor signed with Raymond Brothers, who at the time, two of Raymond's biggest clients were Tony Allen and Zach Randolph. So he was around here a lot. And I recall him bringing in Victor once upon a time here. Because I think people thought that maybe it's weird to look back when a guy is scoring 47. But at the time it was, okay, the floor on this guy is that he has a chance to be like Tony Allen, which has a decade-long career as just an elite defender. That was going to be like, even if he's not some kind of great offensive player, he can be that. And now, of course, he's known as this, at least for this last week, this offensive juggernaut. But he is a great, great kid, great kid, for sure.

No doubt. That was one of the most appealing parts of him, right? I talked to Tom Crean at Oladipo's head coach in Indiana, and he just, everybody raved about Oladipo's character, but Tom Crean especially, it's understandable why Oladipo is turned into the player he is, and that's because the work he puts in in the mindset that he has. Well, you know, and you know what one thing that is because it's all about Oklahoma City and the deal that they made, which we're going to touch on that here in a moment. But you know what, but it's been forgotten in all of this?

Think about the way he was first discarded. Orlando. which was for basically a disastrous Serge Abaka tenure in Orlando, right? Like that was a, that was terrible. Forgettable. Yeah, for sure. And it made them no better. And it was just a, that was a catastrophe for sure.

And it's one of those things where we talk about the team that bottoms out. Like they're the fan base that should be most despondent, I believe. Because it's like we've said many times, okay, they've been bad and bad and bad and bad. bad and what do they have to show for it. When you look and you go, all right, what do we build around here? It's pretty clear that the choice should have been him, right? Like, that's who they should have built with in mind, at least, or be part of a core going forward.

And so, who knows? Maybe Jonathan Isaac will turn out to be really good. Aaron Gordon has certainly taken a big leap this year in individual production. But I think that in the case of take a few, you know, take. a couple steps back and say, all right, who should we identify as our young core going forward in order to build around? Oladipo should be there. Like, that's a mistake.

It just is. And maybe he would not have fulfilled his potential there. I don't know. But they certainly, in retrospect, got very, very little to show for what turns out to be a really good player. That was a bad deal in the beginning, kind of almost an inverse of the Oklahoma City deal, where the OKC deal, I feel like everybody raved about it. But that Orlando trade was kind of like, well, what exactly are they doing?

The question, I mean, it seemed like they're a rebuilding team, and then they suddenly were trying to push for the playoffs. And sometimes when you do that is when you get yourself into trouble, and that's what happened with them. Let's say Tobias Harris does make the All-Star game. He certainly for a long time there's when their record was much better before they went on this recent swoon. He had a shot at it, given the numbers he was being put up.

And just imagine that. I mean, you're a friggin' magic fan and you're watching Victorola Depot and Tobias Harris make the All-Star team. And both of them were on your team at one point. Like, what? It's crazy. They got new management now. And hopefully the guy who once upon a time built up Milwaukee will be able to do it for magic fans going forward.

We talk about the other side. And I have been one of those, you know, from the very beginning that was high on the opportunity that Oklahoma City had, that it's going to take time. Chemistry doesn't come overnight, but when they figure it out that that team has the opportunity to be very, very dangerous. I saw them in person

over the weekend, Kevin, and obviously I've seen them on TV several times this year. I really don't know if it's going to come together. They were without Paul George in the game that I saw. I've seen them with Paul George also.

I really don't know if it's going to come together like I once viewed and it feels like that we're not far off from the real blame game happening with them. I mean, you're already starting to see some of the articles come out. I did wonder if Billy Donovan will be the one that is to blame for this. But it's a little bit different because sometimes when we have seen these guys be put together to form one of these trios, they're typically not like coming up on decisions. time right but we know that they got like a year to make this work and now you're a quarter of the

way through said year but you watch them and they're just not good they're just not and their depth is just atrocious so those three guys they those three guys like those three guys together they don't have to be good they have to be amazing because there's nothing Nothing else. Nothing. You might get something from Adams. You might get something from Abrams. But other than that, they've got very, very little.

And so those three guys have to simultaneously all be great. And it might just be the wrong mix. It's the first time that I had serious doubts because I have been one that said, ah, it's just going to work out. And maybe in the end, you could have a bull scenario, right? Which is last year we looked at it and we said, we knew this was going to be a bad fit. It has been a bad fit.

And then when they got to the playoffs, they looked like a radically different team, at least until Rondo went down. And I suppose, you know, I'll always leave that door open a little bit. But in terms of like them putting it together in this regular season and me looking up and they've won 10 of 12, I don't think that's going to happen. I really don't. I think they're going to have a bad seat by the time. It's all said and done.

Well, maybe not just because of the West, right? If you win six in a row now, like, you'd probably be the friggin four seed. So I don't want to, I don't want to say that. But they're certainly not going to be in contention for one of the highest seeds. That's for certain. I was thinking last night about an article I wrote in late November, the thunder have a Russell Westbrook problem where it's like kind of evergreen contents, where, you know, Oklahoma City, I think it still comes down to him.

He played fairly well statistically last night. I just think ultimately it comes down to his willingness to change, right? I think it's you can, you can fairly blame Billy Donovan for not effectively integrating the system. You can fairly blame Sam Presti for not putting together the right bench pieces. You can't, you can look at Carmelo and Anthony and blame him for not willing to adapt. You can blame maybe Paul George for having some of the really bottom level games on offense, but also he's had some highs too. You can blame everywhere.

I still think ultimately the tone setter in the organization is Russell Westbrook. Coach Nick from Bewell Breakdown put together a great video the other day that looked at Westbrook off ball. That's something I mentioned in my article as well where it's like when Westbrook gives the ball up, he doesn't do anything. Like he falls off the screens sometimes when you're watching games. And it's just indicative of really his uselessness when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. for Oklahoma City to be what they can. And this is something an NBA executive said to me before the season. And he thought they were going to be really good, right?

But his kind of qualifier was the team needs to be good off ball, right? They need their guys to move and to set screens of purpose, to run through screens of purpose, to just move and make reads, you know, effectively. And that hasn't happened at all. It's like they just take turns playing isolation. It's very rare that you see them run a really nice set in the half-privile. court. And maybe that's something they do develop over the course of the season. Maybe the team needs to fail in order to succeed later. And perhaps by April, when they are on the verge of making the

playoffs as a six seed or the seven seed, maybe at that point, you're thinking to yourself, they could be a really, really tough out. They could be really hard to get out for whoever that three seed is. Because I'm not willing to give up on them. I'm not willing to give up on them. I'm just saying they're going to be up against it. They're going to have to be much better come playoff time. Oh, no doubt. Because this is, for sure. It's a weird mix for sure. Okay, so you remember when they tried to throw together the Kobe thing with Dwighton and Nash?

And they were on the cover of Sports Illustrated. And, like, you know, it's like this famous, like, old takes exposed level cover. Yeah. Where it's, this is going to be fun. Yeah, this is going to be fun or whatever. And it was quite the opposite of fun, right? But I harken back to that. And I wonder, you know, when Kobe had it was Kobe and Chad.

obviously and then it was Kobe and Paul Gasol were probably those were the two consistent all-stars on that team and they had other good players but but they fell into roles and there was one clearly dominant player one that was the the Robin to the Batman and then there were role players around them and I do

kind of think that that's how Westbrook is best built around if that makes sense that when you have a guy like that, that he is going to be so dominant with the ball. So having one other guy is fine, but having two becomes a much greater challenge because of the way he plays.

And it worked with Kobe. Like, everybody can slander Kobe however they want to. This guy got rings, and this guy is one of the greatest players to ever step on a basketball court. And the way, it was almost like, if you put two big stars with him, that ain't going to work real good. But if you had one and we saw it work.

I don't know. We saw it work with Westbrook and Durant for a long time, man. I mean, we did. Say what you want. That worked. But was Durant around Westbrook or was Westbrook around Durant? What does that mean? Westbrook was always the robin to Durant's Batman.

That's a good point, Isaac. I don't know if that's true in terms of people fought that for a long time. I mean, usually people jumped on Westbro. for being a guy that took too many shots or took away from Duran. Because he did. Because he did. Someone put up a poll on Twitter and forgive me. I forget who did it.

But the question was something along the lines of, would Oklahoma City be better now with Chris Paul instead of Russell Westbrook? And it's like, yeah, they would. They would be better with him. Just like they would have been better with those Durant teams with Chris Paul rather than Westbrook, too. Because Chris Paul's a better point guard. And he's a better fit next to a superstar players like that.

To me, the Carmelo one feels like the mistake. I don't know. I mean, I understand what you're saying, like putting two ISO players together like that. And Carmelo does need to change. He needs to adapt. And he's shooting a lower, lower than normal three point percentage. I'd rather have the depth. The thing is, it still comes back to Westbrook for me.

Like, even if you're playing with just one other star player, are you going to make yourself a threat? Paul George is terrific running off screen, something he did super effectively in Indiana, and he's brought it to Oklahoma City. Carmelo Anthony needs to change. He's a great spot-up shooter at least. And it's with Westbrook.

When he doesn't have the ball in his hands, how does he make himself a threat to help open up the floor for his superstar teammates? And he doesn't do that. He's useless off ball. And that's something that Billy Donovan hasn't been able to get through to him. Scardie Brooks wasn't able to get it through to him. So I don't know. Is it those coaches, are they to blame?

Yeah, maybe they are. Maybe it is their fault for not effectively getting it through to him. But maybe it's Westbrook's fault. And I think it's ultimately up to him for him to elevate that team, needs to set the tone defensively, needs to take a little bit lower usage on offense, unless the game desires that from him, and then he needs to make himself more of a threat off ball.

I think those three things happening would kind of set the tone for this team to play a different style of basketball. Then maybe Carmel and Anthony follows along. Then maybe everything starts falling at the place. And then maybe you don't have to, really short your bet. Maybe then you're not thinking about making that Carmelo trade because you're happy with the kind of group you have with the depth you have instead of thinking you need

another star player. I don't know. I'm just saying I think it all comes back to Westbrook. Well, we can keep saying he's good. He needs to change. He needs to change. He needs to do this. But I look at it, like I said, much like the Kobe thing. And I think about through the prism of how do I build if this guy is my best guy, what's my best way to build around him? And to me, I pair with one other elite level player and then other good players around them rather than two i think that might be the i think that might be the trick but we'll see how plays out uh in the you know in the coming uh weeks months and and maybe even when you get to the uh when you get to the playoffs but right now they have they've not looked very good that's for certain one last stat chris this is from

zack cram from the ringer dot com he tweeted this out last night of the 33 players who were taking at least 15 shots per game. Russell Westbrook ranks 33rd in field goal percentage. Carmelo Anthony ranks 32nd and Paul George ranks 30th. I think that says all you need to know about that. That's absolutely incredible. Hey, and let me just add one more thing. To your point about the off the ball thing,

my buddy was telling me last night, I was having a conversation about Oklahoma City and Westbrook and what I had seen a few nights ago from that team. And he asked me, he said, have you heard Zach's podcast yet, our buddy, Zach Lowe? I have not gotten to hear it yet, but on his podcast, I believe, with Arniewicz, he had this stat that he mentioned. He said, how many times do you think Russell Westbrook has set a screen for Carmelo Anthony this year?

And the answer was zero. Zero. Yep. That's ridiculous. I mean, that is like, you know, it's crazy because, like, in my article I mentioned earlier, it's like he, there's a stat where it's like similar where he had. one screen assists all of last season, compared to only four so far this season. I mean, last year, Curry had over 100 screen assists.

Granted, different players, different systems. But I think it shows the complete disparity in how far removed Westbrook is from that type of player. I think he can just be so much more than he is right now. A couple other teams to touch on in the Eastern Conference. Until last night's late loss to the Clippers, Toronto had really been rocking. recently and I had the opportunity to see them also and and talked to their TV announcer extensively Matt Devlin and one of the things that I gathered from watching them is during the playoffs last year you and I talked about kind of their Achilles heel in in some cases which is they had one of their stars they played so much isolation basketball and that one of their stars in Demard de Rosen who is an outstanding individual scorer if you ran a double-t

team at him, unlike LeBron, when he's getting the ball away, it wasn't like he was setting other guys up. And now just watching him, you're talking about he's averaging over five assists a game, I believe now. And he has really transformed himself. And certainly that team has transformed themselves completely in the way that they play. just a few nights ago. I recall it was like four games in a row.

They went like 126, 110, 126. I mean, they're really putting up some serious points. They are one of the few teams, I believe, along with Golden State in Houston, that are top 10 in both offense and defense. They are fun to watch. You see Lowry off the ball more. And they, I think you got to give big credit to Dwayne Casey because, he has he has transformed that team into the quote new NBA and and I think they're going to be a

very difficult out come Eastern Conference playoff time they have been a they've been a regular contributor in the Eastern Conference playoffs but I don't know man I really liked what I saw when I saw them and they they've got real depth um with a bunch of good players now what you think got to give credit to Casey but also going to give credit to those players for their willingness to change and adapt. It's kind of the opposite of the Westbrook conversation where Kyle Lowry and DeMard de Rosen, you know, I think they've sacrificed a little bit to change their games to really, I think, play the more motion modern style that they're playing. It's been beautiful to watch. They've been, they've been such a fun, fun team to watch, having young players

kind of rise up like O'GN and Obie turning into a guy that you can lean on and feel confident about for playing for 30 minutes. We mentioned Sergei Baca earlier in the context of the Orlando trade, but he's been pretty solid with Toronto. He's kind of returned a little bit to back to what he was in Oklahoma City. They have, they've put together a really good team in case he's done a good job of putting those guys in positions to succeed. And even then, I mean, like last night, Kyle Ari shot 0 for 8 from 3. I think on a normal night, they're probably winning that game and they're still rolling

on that win streak. It was just unfortunate night for them. I still think they have room to improve too, because Kyle Lari, he had a terrific end of November. Actually, the entire month was pretty great, but this month he kind of slipped back a little bit. So I think with Lowry, once he kind of finds that consistency within his new role, I think this team can be even better. I don't want to deal it too much in hyperbole, but I must tell you that I know you've been very high on OG. And so I was keenly aware of him, and I wanted to see what I thought, once you see him up close and personal. And do you know who he reminded me?

of and again don't i don't i don't want people out there being like what the hell he's not going to in the moment i can't deny my feelings i watched him and i saw iguodala and i don't think he's going to be that right i'm not saying listen iguadala is one of the is an outstanding player he was a great player with the sixers um he's won a finals MVP for god's sakes but i'm saying like the stuff that he kind of brings to the table and the frame and if he puts on a little more muscle, he is, he is a very good athlete. He runs around screens and just, I don't know. That's who flashed before me when I, when I watched him, that it reminded me of like a young Andre Iguodala. And who knows what his ceiling will end up being. But man, I liked what I saw. He

certainly got the tools to be really, really good. I don't know about Iguadala because the ball handling and playmaking factor, but defensively, I know what you mean with like that versatility, right? I think that that intensity. I mean, I know in our draft guide, we had Shane Badié as a best case scenario for him, Trevor Arisa, kind of another comp, Alfa Rukamino. I think, you know, a versatile defender who hits spot up threes as a baseline, and then we'll see how he evolves from there. I think he could be more than that, depending on how his ball handling develops, depending on how he's able to improve as a scorer, but I think what he is now, he's one of those rookies where you can say,

if he didn't get any better for what he is now, he'd still have a 10-year NBA career. I think that's one of the best compliments you can give a young player. At the very minimum, he is going to be a hellacious wing defender. No doubt. And beyond that, it stands to reason, like, I'm always super impressed when I see rookies and you can't tell their rookies, like, if you were in the stands, and unless somebody told you that that kid, is playing one of his first 30 games in the NBA, you would have no idea. None. He fits right in

immediately, which is a real credit to him. And the other thing, just real quickly on them, I recall, I had a, there was a baseball team several years ago, and I think, I want to say it was like the Padres. And they started off with this amazing record. I had a baseball analyst on my show at the time. And I was talking to him about, you know, what is the deal here? Because they didn't have a lot of big names or big stars per se, but they were really, really good. And he said, because in the age of analytics, everybody was always looking for the undervalued thing. What is undervalued at this point? And I remember him saying to me, the trick with them, and I don't know why this is stuck with me for so many years.

He said, the trick with them is nobody sucks. And I was like, what? He's like, it sounds simple. And he's like, but maybe that's the new undervalued. He's like, nobody on their team sucks. They got to sit a guy on Tuesday. Their utility infielers are great if they need to have a, like up and down the line. They don't have the biggest stars in the world.

And I don't know why that stuck with me for so long, but it ran through my mind when I'm watching the Spurs that I'm like, I don't think I've ever watched a game and gone, that guy sucks. And that's what happened to me with Toronto. Hey, I swear, it sounds so simple. But then when I was watching Toronto, I'm sitting there. I'm like, none of these guys suck. And there's so many teams. Like, I watch Oklahoma City and I was like, this lineup, like every guy in this lineup that they were rolling out there at the time. And Raymond Felton has gained the way back.

And it was like, Kyle Singler. It was like, all that. I'm like, God, this is atrocious. Right? But then, like, Toronto brings their guys in. And it's like Van Fleet and it's Pascal and it's all these guys. And I'm like, like, none of these guys suck. And so I wonder if maybe there is some infinite wisdom in that in like, just limit the amount of guys on your team that suck.

I look at it. I look at it in a similar way. It's like I was talking to one of my friends about the Celtics. This Celtics roster and with this Raptors roster and with the Spurs roster, there's like no players that you dislike, right? Yeah. There's not a player that you dislike on a team on the. team, right? You're not, you're not cringing when a certain player comes into the game because you have confidence for each player to excel. I think, I think whether it's the don't suck test or the

likeability test, that can be a good barometer for your team, for your depth, but it's harder, it's easier said than done to put those rosters together. All right. Let's touch on two teams very quickly. I will wrap up the east and at least the weekend news. And that is two teams that have fallen back. You've had the bucks that have served. We've had. the Pacers that have surged. Toronto, obviously, until last night's lost to the Clippers. But two teams that are now on the outside, or one team that is tailing off and is now at the bottom of the playoff standings in the east and one that has fallen out.

First, the Detroit Pistons, losers of six in a row at this point. Maybe, just maybe they were outperforming what they should be a little bit earlier in the year, but certainly losing six in a row is not something we would have expected. Is there cause for concern with Detroit in your mind? Yes. It's concerning in the sense that they were a team where everything that they were doing suddenly has kind of dissipated. I think with Detroit, we have a situation where they quickly have regressed to the mean, right? They have quickly become the team that we thought they were, right? And there's also, as people on Reddit will attest,

there's the Danny Chow curse, the ringer curse, where ever since we posted an article saying the Pistons are back or whatever the headline was, they have not won a game. So that is always a possibility as well. But it's disappointing because they have a lot of good talent, but it's just not clicking like it does anymore. Reggie Jackson has regressed.

Tobias Harris, you mentioned earlier this season, that he was like an all-star. He is not an all-star in recent, weeks. They're just not the same team that they were early in the season. All right. And your beloved Philadelphia 76. My beloved. Lost four in a row, four and six in their last 10 games. Out of the playoffs. Yeah, on the outside, looking in right now, are you concerned about the 76ers? I want to say no, because they're 500 team. And I mean, can anybody really have expected more than that from them? 500 roster.

Yes, maybe you could have expected that by the same time, you know, Embed missed two of the games that they lost, and he's integral to their success. So it's, you know, they're kind of where I think a lot of people thought they were going to be at 500. A little bit, I think they'll end up a little bit over 500. So, no, not too worried. They've just hit a skid, that's all. Yeah, it's really the two games that they lost to Phoenix and L.A. And obviously, the L.A. one was a massive.

I mean, that was an Ingram shot that was a, I mean, that's a huge shot. But interesting to see, they play, they play Minnesota tonight. It's actually a ESPN game. That's going to be fun. That'll be Embed in towns. Hopefully, Wolves are playing a maximum of like 36 minutes tonight. All right.

We got to take a quick break when we come back. We'll cover some of the Western Conference topics that have taken place since Kevin and I last spoke. NBA show brought to you by Stitch Fix. If you're like a lot of guys, you'd think of a million things you'd rather be doing the shopping for clothes. Between the parking and the crowds at the mall, the endless browsing.

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They've got 10 game winning street going on. They've got a point differential of plus 11. They are very highly ranked in offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency. They are 21 and 4 on the season thus far. And I read yesterday they have not lost a game that Chris Paul has performed in. Like, what are we talking about in terms of possible win total here? because this, it's juxtapose versus the Oklahoma City thing that we talked about, but damn, man, like they integrated Paul and then he went out and then he came back into the mix and it's made no difference along the way. And now I think you have to look and go, geez, you thought it might take a little time just to figure it out.

But they're 25 games. They are 21 and 4. I know you've gotten to see them in person a couple times this year and you have written about them. you were very, very high on their possibilities coming into the year. What are we thinking about this last 10-game win streak? And do you think it's logical for people to think that the warriors are going to could have a real problem with them? Because that's really the question here, right? Like, I mean, there's a lot of people that say in the end, it's stupid.

It's all, it's a foregone conclusion, no matter. Or at least what Houston has done or what the Kawhis, spurs have done so far are they at least through a quarter of the season giving you creeping doubts that it is a foregone conclusion that golden state will be there at the end it's not a foregone conclusion i think because of houston's ability to do a couple of things i mean for one they can match up they have they have a roster with versatile wings and versatile forwards that can match up defensively they have superstar players on chris paul and james hard and who are incredibly difficult to defend and pick a role or isolations. They have guys who can effectively space the

floor offensively. They can play small if they want to with PJ Tucker at the five. They can play big with Clint Cleppella at the five. Or they can put Ryan Anderson at the five if they want a shooting five. They can play different types of styles. But also, you know, with their three-point shooting, but something that Daryl Morey mentioned in an interview last year, he said something like, to beat the Warriors, you need to have higher variance with their three-point shooting. And what we've seen recently over the streak and over the whole season for that matter with Houston is they have quarters or stretches of games where they just are unstoppable because their defense is so good and because they're so lethal in transition and because they're still so hard to stop in the

half court where they just drop 40 40 on you easily in a quarter and when you have those highs it gives you an opportunity to get back in games or to build leads regardless of the opponent So I think Houston, I think they certainly are a threat to Golden State. I think obviously Golden State is still the favorite. I think anybody would still favor them in a series. But at the same time, Houston has significantly closed the gap. I mean, do you feel the same as me with that, Chris? Or is it still like, is it still a situation where Golden State still has more guys than Houston does?

So naturally, they still have a significant advantage. The latter. Because here's the thing. These guys also, fair or unfair, they got to come up huge in a big playoff series. And we have seen over the course of their careers, both of those guys have extremely puzzling elimination games, both Paul and Harden. When the stakes have been the highest in their careers, they have not delivered. That's the truth. I also want to say that I get a lot of the, you know, oh, you know, you're a Houston hater or whatever.

Let me just, I'm going to admit this, okay? So, Kevin, they're 21-4, right? Okay. Two of those losses are to the Grizzlies, okay? Oh, boy. No, but it is hard for you to see the whole, right? Like when those are the games that you most intensely paid attention to, right? Now, in the end, in retrospect, it looks hilarious, right?

Because the Grizzles can't win a game. And, but of their four losses, two of them that I was at, I watched that, I watched that team in person. And clearly not their best performances or even close to their best performances, given what they have done through the rest of the league. So I got actually one of them they won, one of them they lost. Of the two times that I saw them in person so far this year, they are dynamite. But in terms of believing in them when the states are the highest, the two that I still have to believe in the most are San Antonio a golden state just because of the history of winning when it mattered most. and and I tell you this, I said this last week,

Ceph, San Antonio being 7 or 19 and 8 without Kauai Leonard and you're about to throw him into that mix. Jesus. I mean, I mean, what happened? I mean,

they're 8 and 2 in their last 10. They won four in a row. They're 19 and 8 and they don't have Kauai Leonard. And so what happens when he gets back into the mix? I mean, they are, are two and a half games back from Golden State and three back from Houston, and they haven't had one of the top five players in the NBA playing for them.

Genobley had a great tweet, you know, yesterday about that. He said one third of the season already gone, astonished emoji, proud to see the at Spurs with over 70% in the wins column without our best player, hashtag Go Spurs Go, and then clapping, two clapping emojis to end it. And it's the truth. It's like, it's amazing that this team is so great without Kauai Lederate. A guy a ton of people were picking as the MVP this season. The guy who got some MVP votes last season, a guy who is undisputedly one of the best players in our game.

It's, it's remarkable what they've done. And somehow, you know, it's so weird because Kauai being out until mid-December now has not been talked about. Like, we have barely talked about it on this show. I barely see anybody talk about it when I turn on the TV, when I look on Reddit, when I look on Twitter. There is so very little conversation about the fact that the Spurs are slaying teams that they were winning. They're 19 and 8 without Kauai. It's, it's probably, I mean, I'm thinking to myself right now. I'm like, damn, why didn't I write about that?

I'm thinking that right now. It's like the Spurs. It's like the most Spurs thing ever, though, right? Yeah. The most first thing ever is for them to be without their best guy. And nobody even gives a shit. You know? Yeah.

Like, I mean, I know. I mean, nobody ever cares. You know, it's not some kind of big topic of conversation. It's not the kind of thing that gets all kinds of clicks. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, yeah. Now, Kauai Leonard's going to be back in the back. It's like, oh, yeah.

They don't have Kauai. Oh, really. Yeah, it's all good. Yeah. They'll get them back and they'll be great again. The guy that Michael Jordan dubbed the best two-way player in the entire NBA. That's what they get back. Dude, it's wild.

It's wild. They're saying tonight. You should be back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you read Charks's article yesterday on how LeBron should go to the Rockets? Because I'm thinking, I think LeBron, like everybody's talking about rockets, but what about the Spurs, too? The Spurs feel like they would be a cool place for LeBron. Oh, good grief. He's going to Los Angeles. Isn't that what everybody's always

said? He's going to Los Angeles. Yeah, he's coming to the Clippers. That's what's happening. Yeah. In your dreams, Isaac. You know, he's big into all that production stuff and whatnot, right? Like, he fancies himself as becoming like a real mogul. And everybody knows he's already got the mansion out there. Two. He has two of them. Two mansions in L.A.

All right. Well, he's got two mansions. You know, he's like getting into, you know, television and movie production. He's already done some acting so far. And so I think that, I think most people have thought, like, that the reason beyond basketball, But the reason that maybe he ends up closing out a career there is that. He gets a couple of his buddies to go with him out there. And, like, I mean, he might be able to get Chris.

Seriously. Like, what if the Rockets don't win? What if the Rockets don't win? It's always a possibility. You can never rule anything out, right? Charks laid out a great argument, though, for LeBron to Houston. And I think, I think if I were LeBron James, I would do one of two different things. my first choice would be to go to the Lakers now, right, and to assemble my own super team.

Bring Paul George, bring to Marcus Cousins, whoever the superstars are, that that's what would be my first choice. But it's not a bad second option to, you know, try to take a pay cut to go to Houston, play with Chris Paul for a season, Dwayne Wade in the league minimum, right? Play there for two or three seasons and then go to the Lakers, because the Lakers aren't going to say no to you two to three years from now. You can go there whenever you want. You can go anywhere you want.

The most persuasive of that would be that you're joining up one of the great teams instead of going to like the Lakers, clippers, whatever you're saying. Because otherwise, just stay in the east. Like, you know what I mean? You've got to beat one team, really, that would have a crack at beating you in order to get to the NBA finals. And then once you get to the NBA finals, you never know. what can take place. But I mean, good grief. If you're going to try to do your own thing with a

couple other guys and you've already got, you know, Westbrook, George and Mello and Chris Paul and James Harden and Durant and Curry and Thompson and Kauai and his crew and Aldridge and them over there, like, why would you want to try to bust through that West? It's simple, man. The toughest challenge will bring the greatest reward. And I think if you're, if you're LeBron James, if you put yourself through that challenge for a higher risk of failure. I think the reward at the other end of that, if you win a championship with the Lakers, if you leave that team back to the top

and you dethrone the Warriors dynasty that everybody's saying they're going to win all these titles, if you do that, there is no better argument for you being the greatest player of all time, right? I think that's the reward at the end of the tunnel by going to the west, whereas in the east, it's going to be the same old argument that a lot of people use against LeBron.

Oh, he had an easy path. You know, he never had a play in the West. And you know what? That's a valid argument, I think, if you're talking about playoffs. I think that's a valid argument for people to have. Even though I still think LeBron, potentially when it's all said and done, will be the goat. I think he will be the goat when it's all said and done regardless. But right now, that's a hole in the argument that people fairly use against him.

And to beat that is to go West. And I think the better way to do it is with the Lakers, more so than what, latching on with the Rockets because like Charks even said in his article, that's the equivalent of what Durant did going to Golden State. So I think that would also be used against LeBron as well. Oh, he just joined us an existing super team. So build your own super team with the Lakers. And think about sustainability when you guys have guys like Ingram and Lonzo on that team, some young guys on that roster adding two or three veterans. I think that could be the way to do it. Bring the Lakers back to the promised land and dethroning the warriors. Could anything be better?

If he came to the Clippers, that would be better. Listen to that, Isaac. Clipper Isaac just wants him going to the Clippers. Nobody wants to be at the Clippers. Nobody wants to be at the Clippers, Isaac. Come on. But what if he was the first one to break the Clippers' curse? What if he's the one who brings the Clippers

beyond the second round for the first time in history and maybe win a title? Like, wouldn't that be a big legacy too? Nobody cares about the Clippers, Isaac. There is an argument for the Clippers when Christmas. Paul was there because he could have joined up with his buddies, you know, the banana, banana boat and with the clippers. But I think that argument's gone, sadly.

I'm sorry, Isaac. Let's, yeah, come on. Come on, Isaac. Let's get serious. I'm going to ask you one last question about the Western Conference, and that is what our discussions has been. There is the three teams, and then there is a massive separation between them and everybody else, at least in our mind's eye.

Last week when we spoke, the four seed was the Portland Trailblazers. They have lost five of games in a row since, okay? The four seed now, which is the last home court advantage slot in the Western Conference is the Minnesota Timberwolves, who are winners of two in a row. And thank God didn't, I mean, you would have felt terrible if they would have fired Tibbs on Wednesday morning. So thank God they held on to their coach. They are the four seed right now. I'm never letting you live that one. That's all good.

It was funny. All right. So they're the four seed right now. In the end, after it's all said and done, I expressed my level of skepticism regarding Oklahoma City and their ability to get it together in a massive way.

But when it's all said and done, who do you believe is going to be in that four seed behind Houston, the Warriors, and Spurs, whatever order they're in. It's a tough question, you know, just to kind of give some context to that. You have the wolves, nuggets, pelicans, blazers, jazz, and thunder. That's the four through nine spots, all within three and a half games of each other. So Oklahoma City is out of the playoffs right now, but they're not far behind that four seed. They're only three and a half games back.

And I think in the east right now, we have the top. four teams that everybody expected with the you know the Celtics calves raptors bucks and with the west we have the top three we expected warriors spurs and rockets all up top that fourth seed i think it's going to end up the team that everybody expected the oklahoma city thunder when it's all said and done they're going to win enough games to really bump themselves up to that spot and the top four in each conference is going to look exactly how everybody projected that it would maybe in a different order but the same four teams everybody expected how about you yeah i think you might be right Because in the end, they've got the most talented.

The other thing is how bad this has been. I mean, because as soon as you start to think, you know, somebody's really on to something, like Portland, they lose five in a row. Like Utah, they lose three in a row. Yeah. I mean, Kevin, I mean, you know, I mean, I've got to go watch this disgusting product in Memphis recently. And in the end, after watching them get blown off the court by the Miami Heat last night, I'm getting ready for this show today. and I'm looking at the standings, I swear to God, they've won one friggin' home game in over a month. Wow.

They have lost like 15 of 16. They have fired their coach in the middle of this. They're five games out of the playoffs. Yeah. Like I don't even, there is no way to express how bad it has been. Teams just don't lose at that rate. They just don't. Like, nobody does unless it's just.

an absurd product that is attempting to lose that much. But the idea that you can lose 15 to 16 or whatever the hell it is and be five games out of the last playoff spot is patently absurd. And it speaks to once we get past those really good teams in the West, it's just a free for all of teams that just aren't very good. They're just not. You know, Verna, like, they're five games back from the eight seed, and they're also one and a half games back from the top of the lottery standings. That's incredible. Either of those doors, and I know which door I'm going through. I don't know which one you want to choose, but hopefully, you know, if it's the playoff door, hopefully Mike Conley comes back really soon and he stays healthy because he'll change things.

Well, no, I mean, that's the crazy thing, right? because you are stuck in this moment where it's like, all right, if you get Mike Conley back, hell, if you won five in a row, you might be the damn, you know, whatever seed. Could be the sixth seed overnight. Yeah. On the other end, do you just decide like, hey, no, we're just going to go. The conference is so bad that you can't just wave the white towel and call it a season. That's what's bizarre, right?

Like, we have been, we've gone through years where it took 50 wins to get to the playoffs. I don't know, like 500 might be the number. I don't know if the eight seed's going to have 41 wins. Maybe, probably. I mean, through 25 games, what? The eight seed right now has a losing record. Utah's 13 and 14. So I don't know.

I think 500 for the eight seed is relatively normal. I mean, I think it was a couple years back. I forget which year it was, the year Oklahoma City missed the playoffs to the Pelicans. I think that was the last season in the West. at least a team had over 500 for that eight seed spot. Like, I mean, you're right. Like, there's a lot of 500 teams.

It's not like it was. Okay, I just pulled up the standings. Like in 2014-15, Oklahoma City missed the playoffs with a 45 and 37 record. The season prior to that, 2013, 14, the eight-seed was 49 and 33 Mavericks. 49 and 33 was the eight-seed. The 48-win Phoenix Suns missed the playoffs that year. It's crazy. It was that long ago.

All right. Well, we got another week. What do we say? We got Kauai coming back. We got that the Sixers, Timberwolves game that we were talking about. So we got a lot of stuff that's going on tonight. If you're listening to this podcast on Tuesday, and then certainly by the next time we speak, there will be a whole other slew of things.

And we'll decide. We'll have other teams that we think are and players that are going to be awesome or that we're convinced are dead by the time we get to next week. So I can't wait for it. Kevin, I'll talk to you next week. Thanks, brother. See you, Chris. Thanks for listening to another edition of the Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you next week. Ringer MBA show brought to you today by Stitch Fix Men between the parking and crowds at the mall, the endless browsing, and lack of advice online. It's enough to make you want to rock the same t-shirt and jeans forever, but you can't.

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