The Ringer NBA Show - Rockets Hit a Wall and More Trade Rumors. Plus: Predraft Spectacular. | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 18, 2020

Justin, Tjarks, and Rob are joined by J. Kyle Mann to talk about the latest trade scuttlebutt circulating on the internet about a potential Russell Westbrook for John Wall trade and Atlanta’s bid for Gordon Hayward, as well as the recently released schedule for the first half of the upcoming season (1:55). Then we go back in time to Tuesday afternoon for Group Chat’s predraft spectacular (35:15). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Jonathan Tjarks Guest: J. Kyle Mann Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat, the ringer's weekly MBA group discussion where we, like the Houston Rockets, are always willing to get uncomfortable. I am Justin Verrier and joining me today, Jonathan Charks. That was your best intro yet, I think. That was really timely. What a compliment. I appreciate that. Rob. Justin, there's no easy way for us to tell you this, but Justin, you've been traded to the Brooklyn Nets. I feel like I would do well there. I don't need the ball. You know, I'm a real team. chemistry guy, as you guys know. Another team chemistry guy who we have on today's episode, he is a man amongst bloggers, especially on this podcast, Jake Howl Mann. What's up, man? What's going on? A lot of layers to that. You did a pun. Also, you know, not much of a team player. I'm kind of more of a clear-out guy, to be honest. So there's some irony there. But, yeah, listen,

I feel like 730 in the morning is really where we shine on the NBA talk. But we have a lot to talk about here. So perhaps that has something to do with it, too. So the first half of the podcast, we're in talk about some trade rumors and stuff going on right before the draft, some weird trade talk between the Rockets and the Wizards, Gordon Hayward's future, et cetera. And then in the second half of the episode, we recorded this actually yesterday on Tuesday afternoon. That's going to be our final draft preview. So we'll be back first with some trade rumors after this. I got to say, Charks, you seem ready for draft night. It seems like you just stepped out of a Tom Landry huddle here.

Real Texas Forever vibes, and I got to say, I appreciate it. Why are you eating grisket? Yeah, that's the morning snack here. Let's start here, guys. So I remember probably a decade ago now, you have this conversation constantly in the NBA. Like, who is the contract you just cannot trade, right? And for a while, it was Gilbert Arena.

He literally brought guns into the locker room in Washington, D.C., which becomes more wild by the year, by the day. He also had gone through major knee surgery. I believe he had been robbed of like two seasons before the gun incident robbed him of pretty much the second half of another season. And he was due $60 million. And yet, the Orlando Magic still traded for him. after that, I will never believe that no one can be traded, which brings me to today's top rumor, which is Russell Westbrook, according to Shamish Tarania,

for John Wall, his specific verbiage, which is really important during this time of years. They have discussed deal of these two teams. No traction yet. Rockets are seeking more assets, which, sure. Kyle, what the fuck? This is where we should start. Well, I was joking with Rob last night.

I was like this at surface level feels like spinning tires. I said, or maybe pop tires. And then Rob said, actually, this sounds like total tire recall back to the factory. Yeah, I mean, money-wise, yeah, Wall just started his deal. I mean, he's going to be made. He's, Wall's 30, just turned 30, I think, and set to make 38 this year, 40 next year, 43.8, 46.8 and 22, 20. and Westbrook, arguably worse, but I think more of the character of the players,

I think, is why you could argue maybe that you'd want to keep wall around as opposed to Westbrook, but I just kind of have a rule with Westbrook. I don't know if you guys watch The Simpsons. Did you guys watch the Simpsons growing up? Homer had this thing where he would reach into his jacket pocket,

and he had this card in his pocket that said, don't do anything the boy says. Now, he's talking about Bart. If I was a GM, I would keep a card in my pocket that says don't trade for Russell Westbrook. under any circumstances. I just, I don't know. I don't really see how this even makes much of a difference in the short term because like,

you know, KOC made a big point about this the other day with Charlotte. It's like, Russell is a guy who's going to be, you know, he's exciting, yada, yada, yada. He could help you, you know, maybe squeak into the A spot in the East, possibly. But I don't know. I just don't really see much of an advantage or a reason to do this, maybe then to keep Bradley Biel happy, but would it, really? Yeah, my question, Charks, to you is, who would lose this trade the most?

Maybe they'd both win. Like, why not look at the upside here? Wow. What both teams are doing isn't working, right? I think it's pretty clear Bradley, Bradley, Biel, and John Wall have kind of run their course. And my first thought was, I know, like, I'll go back to, like,

Mavs history for this one. There was a point when it was like, Dirk Nevitsky and Michael Finley, and it became Dirk's team. And Finley had to go somewhere else, because it's hard to take a step back on your own team, right? So not as Bradley Beale's team, John Wall probably makes more sense somewhere else to make that transition.

And if you're Houston, John Wall is more of a pass-first guy than Westbrook, if you're rebuilding. So Wall makes more sense moving the ball. If you're Washington, this is a last, that last ditch attempt to go with Bradley Beale. Presumably, Bill says yes to doing this deal. I don't know if it makes that much of a difference, but Beale and Westbrook should win some games in the regular season, right? Like, it's more exciting.

They've done Beal and Wall, million times, not's ever gone anywhere. Well, I mean, we've been batting around Russell Westbrook rumors about the Knicks, about the hornets, where could he possibly go, the magic. Is John Wall the best, the theoretically best player that you could get in a Russell Westbrook trade? Like, can you get a better concept of a player in return if you're Houston? I mean, maybe Blake Griffin was the only other guy who came to mind.

But again, both of those guys have significant issues in terms of injury, in terms of their histories that you're dealing with. I could see how you're talking yourself into it from Houston's perspective a little bit, but mostly this trade makes me feel numb and I want to go home. Yeah. My question is, do you want to take the ball out of Bradley Beale's hands? Because for Houston, I get the motivation maybe to just shake things up. But for the same reasons you would maybe prefer wall next to Beal or the same reasons why I might

prefer wall next to Hardle. just because like if you have Hardin and Beal to handle the ball and do some stuff, Wall in theory could maybe hit a three sometimes at the very least he's been talking about it while he's like been hobbling around on crutches like, oh, I could shoot threes now. And KOC did a big feature a couple months ago where like they seem committed to figuring that out. And Wall at the very least said the right things that be like, you know, it's Beal's show. I'm going to try to learn how to play off and yada yada. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I might prefer Wall.

with a caveat that I don't know how healthy is, but Wall in theory with this mindset, than Russell Westbrook, which seems bleak for all parties involved? I don't know. What do you guys think? Well, it's one of those things where Westbrook is a better player than John Wall. Like, that is objectively true. And yet so many teams, I think, would be in the position that you just laid out,

Justin, which is I'd still kind of rather have Wall in this situation or that situation to account, you know, because we want Brad Beal to have the ball on his hands, because we want to grow these other young players, whatever it is, Russ just is a complication unto himself. And how you balance that with what Charks was saying in terms of changing the internal dynamics of a team that already had a previously middlingly successful natural order in terms of this kind of being Walls deal before.

And now Brad has just become a totally different player in terms of the stratosphere he's been able to reach. I don't know how you juggle those things if you're the Wizards. I'm not envious to be in their position. It does, like, it feels like a very, very high, or maybe not even a high class version of the trade, where they, it was like, was it, um, Bejombo for Mosgov? They both had these really ridiculous contracts. They'll just trade them. Why not? Right. Like these, the deals expire at the same time. There's no financial hit. What's working now is it, what's doing now isn't working.

So to quote the great Russell Westbrook, hashtag why not? It is wild that Russ, like he did have at the very least a good. second half of the regular season before the break. And it seems like we were resigned, given all the discussions that we had. Like, I mean, I guess if you're at the point where the Charlotte Hornets might not want you, that it gets pretty dire,

but we're at the point where we're pretty much saying, like, where could he ever go? Like, could he ever play for another situation? Like, I think this is, like, signaling, like, some pretty bad stuff for Russell Well, I do wonder what the second half of this contract, I think it's actually even more than that, will look like for him. I mean, he's healthier than Wall, right? That week can, because Wall's coming off in Achilles. So like at the very least, you're trading for a guy you know is going to play and play at a pretty high level, whereas Wall's a complete wild card because he has not played in a year and a half now. Yeah, it's a big, it's a big question, Mark, because I mean, a lot of what Wall has built his game on is that sort of explosiveness, that kind of incendiary transition presence.

but I and for a guy who's torn his Achilles that depends a lot on speed and you know his shooting has never been something that that you really want to just bet the farm on it's his evolution as a player is in the next few years um I don't know I just feel like I wouldn't do it because also another thing to consider is that every time that we put Russell Westbrook in a situation where we're like hey water these plants of these you know he's he's really just he's never demonstrated that he's willing to play another way. And, you know, like, stubbornness is sort of one of the masked head words that kind of come along with Russell Westbrook. And I think we'd kind of be naive to expect anything different, honestly. Meanwhile, Tim McMahon also has a report that the rockets are willing to get uncomfortable rather than trade Russ or Hardin. I feel like that's like the typical sports movie moment where someone bursts in the locker room and, like, happens and they say this is going to get uncomfortable and then coach Charks turns around

he adjusts his Texas Forever Hat and he goes we're willing to get uncomfortable is this the movie about multiple superstar players trying to force their way off the team via trade? Yeah that real Disney uplifting movie Are the Rockets actually a Sasha

Barron Cohen movie? Is that what's going on? They're just willing to for the bit they're willing to get uncomfortable and that's kind of what they just revealed that to us. I don't know I'm just saying Yeah, they also traded Robert Covington in the midst of all of this. So it seems like there's some weird dissonance going on where they're projecting strength and they're going to hold the line and yet they traded away.

Pretty key player to at least what they did last season for the back end. So I'm a little confused. I mean, trading Robert Covington in my world is a cry for help or at least a kind of whimper for a team that has kind of, at least it seems, has run its course in terms of the stars interest in being there and what they were. I don't see how they just pick up the pieces and move on other than to say, you don't need to trade James Hardin right now because he has two years under contract. You're really not forced to do that. So you should play that out as long as you need to get whatever assets you need to get in return. If he is indeed pushing as hard as the report say

he is. Yeah, I mean, what else you're going to say, right? Like, oh, we don't want to, we want to train him immediately. Like, you might as well put that out there if you don't believe it. Well, no one really holds out in the NBA. And so I don't know what the repercussions really are. It's just like Stephen Silas is just going to have a bunch of bad days. Like, I don't know. It's the difference between just like someone who's going to draw eyeballs and make my franchise relevant versus just go into this rebuild where we don't really know what we're doing. We might not get much of in way of trade package, especially if like Hardin puts his foot down and says, I only want to go to Brooklyn. And Brooklyn's like, hey, he's not going anywhere else. So we're

not going to give you much. So this is looking pretty bad for Houston. So my question was with that, if he is going to Brooklyn, wouldn't you want to make the trade soon so you can flip all those guys again? If you're going to get Lavert, Dinwiddie, Allen, you could probably get a first for all those guys, right, in the market once you had them. So wouldn't you want to make the trade now and flip right away? Start flipping Dinwiddie for a first round pick, Lavert for one or two, Allen for one? You wouldn't hold on to someone like Allen or someone like Lavert? I mean, why don't get more picks for him if you're starting over anyways? Those guys in their mid-20s,

got to pay him a lot of money really soon, where they're really going with them regardless. Yeah, as a core, I don't know that I would want to keep them as like, okay, now we're moving forward. I think that thinking makes more sense. Like, I mean, Levert probably, I mean, Leverts, he's like 27, didn't he? He's older than you think he is. I feel like he's, I'd have to look.

But, yeah, I feel like that makes a lot of sense because those guys all, you know, alone could go to teams that need some extra help and be really beneficial, I think. but as a core together, I don't know that it would be something that I would want to keep and say this is what we're building around going forward. Yeah.

LaVird is 26, by the way. Swish. Yeah, it's always, it's always fun. It's always funny when these trades happen and the team getting this star is always like, here, here's this core of a crappy team. It didn't work for us,

but have fun with this. Like, the Pelicans basically have the guts of a bad Lakers team. And it is work sort of, Brandon Ingram has shown a little bit, but when they formerly had the guts of a bad clippers team with the Chris Paul trade too, so they're just

collecting toys over there. Right. Although the clippers may do with the guts of a bad Rockets team. So perhaps there is a silver lining here. I mean, that would be my problem though. If we're looking at that Brooklyn package, it's just what is the best asset there? Like, let's assume

that Brooklyn doesn't drag its feet and they pay a reasonable price. Like, the market is really just like at this point and it was exacerbated by what Milwaukee did with Drew Holiday. It's like it's a lot of stuff. And so you would think that like they're getting unprotected picks back.

Well, that's what I'm saying, right? If you get your five first round picks and you get Lavert, Dinwidding, Allen, I bet all those guys get you a first round pick. So now you have eight first round picks. That's something to start with. I'm messing around. Getting some young guys in there.

You know what it reminds me of? One of those Russell Westbrook. teams where like it was after Kevin Durant left and before he went to the rockets where it's just Russell Westbrook and some dudes and he'll maybe get some guys open maybe he'll take 40 shots that seems like the inevitable future for that franchise hey John Wall and some dudes catch up there you go all right let's um let's move on to young gordo here so uh Gordon heyward seems like something is brewing here uh Chris Haynes has a report that the Atlanta Hawks are in play in an attempt to acquire Boston Celtics for Gordon Hayward.

Sign in trade deal is possible, but Elena can simply sign Hayward. So pretty much the thing that signal that something could be happening is Hayward's deadline to either opt in or out of his player option. He and the Celtics agreed to push that back to Thursday. So to me that signals one or two things that the Celtics are saying to Gordon, like, please let us try to get something. out of this and try to rope you into a trade or maybe they get a trade exception out of this or the Hawks

which seems like the most likely destination for Hayward though we can talk about that basically want to exhaust their options on draft night. If they don't do something Wednesday then Thursday all of a sudden Gordon gets his deal. Rob, what stands out

to you just about this whole situation? I'm kind of trying to puzzle out what the Celtics are after and it's hard to separate the reports that are out there from Mark Stein about the Celtics trying to get in the top three from this Hayward stuff, knowing that the Hawks have the sixth pick. Is there a three-way deal that kind of makes sense that can serve all parties involved here? But I also don't really see what's in it for the Hawks unless they're getting significant compensation in addition to Hayward. Because as we've said, he's a guy they can just go out and sign in free agency. He can opt out of his deal, which makes me think there must be at least some other assets coming their way if they're this is going to be an actual trade. Otherwise, I just don't see what's in it for them. See, my thought for Boston, I feel like they almost have to do something.

If you just look at their roster, right? So you have Tatum and Brown on the wings. I think Marcus Smart's the point now where he has to start, right? If you're Marcus smart, I'm first team all defense, my shots gotten better on the leader of this team. Like, I'm not going back to the bench for Gordon Hayward, who's always hurt anyways. No one really likes in the team.

That's not happening. And if you're Gordon Hayward, you're about to be a free agent again. You're not really part of this team anymore. They're going to have you come off the bench. Your role's already been declined. It kind of makes sense to move on for both parties, I feel like. Yeah, I think that's true.

I mean, you think the emergence of, I mean, I guess the original vision was just in the timeline sort of shifted because Tatum was ahead of schedule a little bit there. I mean, he had a little bit of a lapse in year two, but I think we could all agree that he's where we thought he would be. and that sort of affected, you know, Gordon's role on the team. And yeah, I think in terms of their ceiling, they could conceivably get the things that they need to level up. I guess now it's kind of about like Miami competing with Miami at the top now, just figuring out how you can beat those teams at the top and be flexible enough to beat him in a series.

And I think Hayward could provide enough for teams to flip him for, you know, the things that you need to do that. it definitely seems like the Celtics are scrambling. Like there are loose rumors. I don't know how verifiable they are or just about that they want to get into the Drew Holiday mix. So if they do lose Hayward for nothing, if he just walks in free agency, that's a pretty big loss

because I don't think they could really add anything of significance just considering the way their cap is structured. And it's particularly probably deflating just considering all the other teams in the east are loading up around them. The Bucks, the Sixers just like, just got all the demons out

when they made some front office changes. So definitely going to be at a disadvantage. But for the Hawks, I mean, we talked about this when Nate Duncan and we kind of talked around it a little bit. I love that fit in Atlanta. I just think Gordon needs probably a change of scenery and he needs probably someone who is willing to give him

the sort of elevated role that maybe he isn't getting in Boston anymore and wouldn't get it in Boston anymore. And just think, like, what do you need in Atlanta? You need a secondary playmaker. You probably need someone who could swing between three and four who's a little bit more farther along than DeAndre Hunter and maybe John Collins, who I remembered who he was and not Jason Collins. See, I can't even get straight. But I don't know. I just, I love that fit. If he is Gordon Hayward in the ideal and not the guy that we've seen just on and off the past two years, that that's a home run move for the Hawks, I think. I would say

that becomes, does he want to go to Atlanta? Is probably the question then, right? Can Atlanta sell Hayward on their vision? Or does he say, ah, y'all been bad forever? Let me go somewhere that's actually good. Well, where is that? I think that's the question. If it isn't Elena, is there a natural destination for him?

Well, you know where he's from, Justin? They always like bring guys home to Indiana. That's been out there for a long time. It's not Texas. They seem excited about... He's from Indiana. Butler. I mean, for the Hawks...

Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense because you're adding a lot of wrinkles. I mean, he's a proven two-way player, you know, so long as he can stay healthy. He's giving you wrinkles, like, he can give you some ISO scoring. I think he was a really efficient ISO score this past year. And also, you know, you get the opportunity to. We talk about this a lot with a lot of these, like, high, heavy load, spread, pick and roll guys, is you give him the chance to go off ball a little bit.

Like, you give Trey some opportunity to go off ball. And, I mean, he's smaller. I'm curious to see how that. would work but I do think that it would I don't know it adds wrinkles and improves your defense it gives you another veteran I think it's I think it's good across the board I also like Kim you know not only as a guy to relieve pressure off of tray off of John Collins but as kind of training wheels for these young wings too and helping them find what I think could be more comfortable roles for them in terms of kind of

the long-term prospects of their career for Cam Reddish for DeAndre Hunter let let these guys get into slots they can fill more easily right now by letting Hayward do a little bit more of that supplementary playmaking. To be fair, though, and not that Cam and DeAndre are Jason and Jalen, but young wings don't necessarily want those. We've already seen that, right? They're not going to love it. They're not going to love it.

Are they like, oh, you're helping me grow by keeping me on the bench? That's what you're doing? Fantastic. You've got to take your medicine sometimes, Charks. Yeah, imagine leaving Boston and then just going and having the same problems just with the worst version of the two wings that you just played with. Everybody hates me. Yeah, it brings up that question of like, what is the best way to do you hurt yourself by having a lot? Because the Hawks have picked a lot in the last few years and they picked up a lot of wings. It's like, do you hurt yourself by robbing, like Charks was talking about robbing your wings of getting the chance to get game reps and grow that way? Because, you know, the Celtics, like their success, a lot of that grew up on the floor. Like we watched Tatum and Brown sort of, you know, they had their struggles. They had their times. But, you know, they had their times. But, you know, I think that's kind of the flip and Rob and I were talking about this last night was just that like yeah that that question of is it is it smart to do your wings like that basically yeah I mean it does seem like they want to jump the process in Atlanta and I think that could get pretty ugly if they don't execute it properly and this is just one of those ways and another would be just like not getting Gordon Hayward and just needing to spend all this money and then all of a sudden it's just like

Jay Crowder made 20 million years or something. I don't know. That's whatever the darkest possible timeline for spending that money would be. But so the other rumor that Burbold, which we should probably talk about surrounding the Hawks is that Frank Isola has them linked to Rajan Rondo. And while he says that Rondo has his eyes set for Los Angeles Clippers and their mid-level exception, his specific report was that it was 15 million over two years for Rajan Rondo, which seems like a lot of money for a guy who doesn't play in the regular season. This is like Rajan Rondo's trip to Disney World, essentially. He can't go for COVID reasons, but he could definitely cash in off of a couple of good games.

That would be the type of move where I think it's really scary for a team like the Hawks. Would not recommend it. Well, I guess I'll be the devil's advocate here. It does seem like young guys like Rondo, wherever he's gone. I remember back with the three alphas thing for much that was a disaster Rondo was the one guy being like y'all got to chill out, let these young guys grow

blah blah blah blah. It does seem like people like being around him. Just figure about the basketball part, right? And I don't know. And then he helps Trey maybe. Though it does feel like to me it's more Rondo wants to use the Hawks' leverage to the Clippers to get more money from the Clippers. I like this pivot to posy charks. Just all good

vibes coming from my guy. It's a new day. It's a new day, Justin. Rondo goes to Disneyland sounds like the worst Netflix show ever, by the way. But also, I think that, like, I wouldn't watch it. But I think he's just got this personality that moves into whatever room he's in and people, I think maybe people just are semi-affraid of him, you know? Like, I mean, even like DeMarcus cousins famously has, you know, graded against a lot of people. I remember him saying that he liked Rondo.

Like, he said, didn't he say, like, we're both assholes or something like that? Like, I, checks out. Maybe that, I'm not, no psychologist, but I just think that might be part of it, you know. And he is, it's the Connect Four games. That's what it is.

You start getting those Connect Four going, everyone gets involved. In the mess hall, yeah. He has so much gravity to us. I mean, he won a freaking title in 2008 with the Big Three Celtics. That must be like, like, the Bill Russell Celtics

for some of these guys coming into the league right now. He's done some stuff. He's won big games. He's gone up against LeBron James in the playoffs. offs. Like, I definitely would probably look up to Rondo, and quite frankly, I would be intimidated because he does seem like the type of person who would be on my ass as soon as I did something poorly. Well, because also, too, right, if you're a young team, I'm just saying, I'm nothing but the basketball

part of it, but Rondo's probably a better leader for young guys than Gordon Hayward, right? If we're talking about who are they going to listen to, who's going to help? Maybe. No mustache, though. Put it this way. Rajan Rondo won a title before high definition television had fully hit the country. I know this because I watch games all the time. He's old. Exactly. All right.

One more thing I did want to hit here just before we turned to the draft stuff. So the Bucks made a lot of moves. The mismatch covered this in depth. And by now you've probably listened to a lot of other podcasts and articles parse through the records there. The one thing I did want to talk about quickly is kind of the ripple effects here. So the presumption, a lot of people and a lot of people who are in the know, reporters and alike are working under is this was enough in order for Janus to sign the Super Mac extension when they could put it in front of him on Friday, if they haven't already. Let's just work under that assumption because I do think the ripple effects of that are super fascinating because you have a couple teams who are basically waiting for 2021 in order for a shot at Janice, our guy, the two-time MVP.

in particular Dallas, Toronto, Miami. And so I wonder if they're in scramble mode a little bit. And I wonder how that ripples into what they're going to do in free agency, what they might do in the draft tonight. Chargers here in Dallas, you get a sense of like what a plan B could look like if Dallas wanted to just move on from the honest dream. It seemed like they are already kind of doing that earlier in this, I guess, a week ago now or two weeks ago. because it seems like they're like, we're going to be aggressive now. We can't really, what's going to happen, 2021? And they're going after like guards who could help them,

who could guard and play off Luca. They're linked to Old Depot for a while. And I'm really liking the idea of Dinwiddie. Like we were talking earlier about the Rockets, think Dinwiddie and flipping him again. If I'm Dallas, Spencer Dinwiddie is the kind of guy I want. Big guard, can penetrate, decent enough shooter, can guard multiple positions. That's the guy I like around Luca. I think that makes a lot of sense.

Maybe for your 18th pick in this draft for Dinwiddie. I think Dinwiddie, just to supplement what you were saying, I think Denwitty's the type of guy that also on several nights a year could like shift and take a really big offensive load. Like he's that type of guy, you know, maybe not full time, but Luca needs, you know, somebody like that, definitely. There's something kind of freeing about this when you're one of these teams of knowing that Janus might be off the board and you can actually spend some money again. You can actually bring in guys on longer term contracts. You can talk about a Spencer Dinwiddie. You can kick around, oh, is there a way we could get in on Fred Van Vleet, who is a player?

I didn't really pair with the Mavs at all, but makes a lot of sense for what you would want alongside Luka. There's all of a sudden all these other options to consider. So you miss out on one of the best players in the world, but there's a lot more game theory to play with. It does seem like Van Vleet's the Domino, right? If Toronto's out on Yannis, then there's no reason lose Van Veed at all at that point, right? You might as well bring him back at whatever the price point is. Yeah, Fred Van Ventliet, Serge Abaka, you would imagine that Toronto, Toronto, if only to retain some of these guys to potentially do stuff down the road, would

try to resign those guys. And I think this also trickles down to like some of the contenders who are hoping to spend their mid-level exception in order to get a significant guy. And one thing that we talked about in past episodes was just that if no one had money on this market and if the only few teams who did have money were bad teams in markets that weren't all that attractive, does a team like the Lakers with their mid-level exception have way more spending power than they usually would simply because if all things are equal, players are probably going to want to play with LeBron James in sunny Los Angeles.

And all of a sudden, Danila Gallinari is like, well, I could take $14 million in Atlanta or I could take $9 million in L.A. for a year. That sounds pretty attractive. And so I do wonder if the market is going to tighten. If someone like Van Vleet, who is probably the best guy who is likely or could move this off season is off the board, like it gets pretty bleat. after that. Well, and if we're talking about from a free agent perspective, if Atlanta's cap space is off the board, because that's a team that every, you know, every team is talking about as a third, a third facilitator and a three team deal. Every agent is using Atlanta as leverage out there, you know, Rondo's apparently may be included. So if there's less cap space, if one of the best free agents is off the board, the market gets shaken up really quickly. And that's where, you know, I feel like, and this is just my suspicion, that Van Vliet may be easier to keep for the Raptors than Abaca would be.

just because they can make the investment long term. But if you're Sergei Baca, you're going to have lots of attractive mid-level offers. It's just the question of, for a guy who loves Toronto, do you want to stick around for another couple of years, maybe make a little more money, or do you want to go chase a ring with LeBron or whoever? And there's also the part about,

are you going to be in Toronto next season? Are I going to be in Tampa Bay or wherever they're going to be? This is fair. Right. Yeah, Miami is the last team on this list that I have marked down. Like, I don't know, maybe they get more active in trade discussions. you would assume that they would have moved on from Goran Drogic. And maybe that means he's coming back.

Maybe you sign him to a balloon payment for one-year deal. I don't know. I think it's going to get pretty fascinating pretty quickly here. One last thing just before we turned to draft. So there was a report yesterday that, yesterday being Tuesday, that the NBA schedule, like the first half of it essentially came out. So the NBA is going to release the schedule in two halves. I'm curious if you guys have any takeaways from it because there wasn't much new in there.

There's going to be this play in tournament that seems like a more exciting version of the one that we got in the bubble. My only thought there was that if you're only releasing a first half of a schedule in order to bake in a period where you could make up games because of the coronavirus,

like it already seems pretty bleak. But curious what you guys think. this is not exactly at the top of the world's problems, but this schedule is yet another reason that a COVID vaccine cannot come soon enough. I think it's smart planning to leave the second half of the schedule open. I have not been thrilled with the NBA arrangements that I've heard to date in terms of what this could actually look like

in arenas, what it could look like in terms of player travel, which the league it looks like from this first half of the schedule, didn't do a great deal to curb, at least as much as they could have, given the circumstances. So let's go, let's go as vaccine assembly lines, you know, activate, please. Well, what's, you know, what are the protocols going to look like? Because I know in college basketball right now, one of the big problems that they've had is that and there's been a lot of criticism from my guy, Rick Petino, I know, that, you know, if one player

has it, the whole team has to sit out for two weeks. Like, you know, if we're out moving around in society before, and we're supposed to spike here around when the league's supposed to start back up, I don't know, it just seems like It's going to be carnage on that level. Have they rolled out much in terms of what the protocols are going to be on that level? Have you guys heard? I haven't seen anything. Not in stone.

And so much of it, too, is going to depend on what team by team decides to do in terms of letting fans into the building as well, which is going to vary a lot, depending on market, depending on market size, and depending on just how badly they need that money from the gate. Yeah. I mean, the tournament, I'll just say, for a hopeful note, for a little bit of an upswing here as we end things, it seems pretty exciting. I'm glad that they took the right takeaway from last years or, God, a couple months ago's playing tournament. It just seems like they're going to beef it up a little more. And it seems like it'll be a little exciting. And like the trickle-down effects of like, what does it mean for tanking and what does it mean for like teams trying to push at certain times of the year? I think it'll be pretty fascinating.

But I guess we'll see. So as I mentioned up top, we recorded the second. second half of this podcast yesterday around, what was it, like five central time to Pacific, six Eastern time. So I don't, we all came to the decision that not enough had happened in order to update anything. So like there have been a couple burbles since there and Yiko Kongwu is like may have an injury. The Knicks traded up like four spots at the bottom of the first round to maybe do something. So it's only like minor stuff. the good stuff is still there for you.

So on that note, we're going to take a quick break and we come back. You'll hear that conversation. All right. We're back. And today is finally here. It is draft day. The thing that we were all waiting for for weeks and weeks and weeks until 30 trades happened earlier in this week.

Charks, do you have any sort of draft day ritual? Do you have any like Texas Forever underroos that you got going on today? First off, I need to buy some Texas for that. sounds amazing. I think draft is like most days. I have a little mid-afternoon nap, you know, get myself ready for the big nights about it.

That's the key to adulthood right there, a little mid-afternoon nap. So we've been talking about the draft for a couple of weeks now here, but what happened earlier in the week kind of shuffles things up. So we got a few new possibilities out there. I want to start with what the fallout

for the Thunder and Pelicans trades will be. Obviously, the Thunder traded in a shooter and then Chris Paul. And the Pelicans just traded Drew Holiday. So each of them have, man, it's got to be in the double digits. If you're looking out into 2026 and 2027, a number of draft prospects coming to them. The question is, Charks, what do you actually do with all of these picks? Because on the one hand, it seems nice to look at this spreadsheet and see first in 2024 and swap here and this guy and whatever. but then when it comes down to it,

it's a lot of late first round picks that they're going to have to find uses for. Yeah, I mean, 2027, are we sure there's going to be a country at that point? Much less a basketball league. It's just so it's mind boggning to think about you can trade that far into the future. It's dark time.

Dark, dark comment here. They have so many picks in the future, Charks, I feel like you're going to legitimately be able to pitch your son. Like, we could pitch our kids to Presti, start sitting in tape. That is the long-term plan for sure. Yeah.

That's what LeBron is actually waiting for, not brownie, but Charksy. I think Charks is on to something, though. Like, who can get ahead of the apocalypse and trade out their draft picks beyond that point? I mean, there's a lot of money to be made in the meantime. Let's do it. The Doomsday strategy, you just don't hear about it enough in a franchise. You're like, well, we'll be dead, you know. So screw it.

Yeah, in the long run, we'll all be dead. John Keens on economics. Sam Presti on the draft. same idea. That's what the Clippers were thinking when they made the Paul George trade, actually, is that we're not going to be around to feel the repercussions of it all. No, but I think it's interesting because we've been told for so many years now that this is the right way to build a team,

and it seems like these small market teams who had big-time stars want to get out of that situation, Anthony Davis more than Drew Holiday in terms of New Orleans, like this is what you kind of target, right? you want future assets at the worst case they could turn into something else down the road but as we're seeing with a team like the Celtics for instance there's a darkest timeline where those draft picks just become

almost like Millstone's like the Celtics are at this point where they can't roster all the players that they have and they have three more draft picks coming this year. Rob, what do you think just in terms of a team building strategy is if you go into this draft with all these picks if you're the Pelicans or the Thunder are you looking to trade them to maybe move

up in the draft, or is that too soon in the process? I mean, they're both at pretty different places. And I think, you know, let's look at the Thunder, for example. I think they're in a spot where they can skip a step in a sense. They can, rather than just liquidate these veterans they have on their roster, the Stephen Adams, the, you know, now potentially Danny Green, Kelly Ubre, Ricky Rubio. They can try to spin those guys by attaching a couple picks to them and getting some young talent in return. You know, jump ahead a little bit in their process. You're not just tearing it down. You're also getting some of that young talent in the door. I think New Orleans is at a place where they almost have more young guys than they can play already. So they're going to have to consolidate as it is,

even before you start getting into their draft stuff, it's tricky. But I think both of these teams are where you want to be in the sense that, you know, whenever the next disgruntled star becomes available or starts making noise and you don't even really know who that guy is yet, but you want to get out ahead of it. You want to get into that space where, you know, there's like this famous battle plan that's attributed to Napoleon that's like show up and see what happens. Like, just kind of, you know, engage and then follow up depending on what's happening out there.

I think that's where these teams are. They're in the show up and see what happens stage in terms of a future superstar trade. It's my career just like outline right there. You could do worse. That's sort of LeBron's playoff perspective, right? Show up to what happens and then react. Like he doesn't, yeah, doesn't come in with a full-fledged plan immediately.

Well, we don't have to go process versus results on how it went for Napoleon, but let's just let's pretend it's a good plan. I do think it's important to point out, though. Sometimes you get people saying, oh, man, the Thunder are going to get like Eminie Bates or whoever, like the next great young superstar. But it's always worth remembering to get the number one pick in the draft is purely luck, right? Especially with the way the draft order has changed now, where I think the top chance is like 20% maybe even lower.

I forget what the exact odds are now, but it's much more than used to be. Yeah. So like a process type thing doesn't really work anymore. If you want to get a top three pick nowadays, it's, purely a luck thing, like Zion getting for the Pelicans. There was no grand plan for that. They just got really, really lucky. And even with all these picks,

there's no guarantee you get a true star out of them because you're no guaranteeing a top three pick out of it. Right. And I guess the Hawks would be the opposite end of this where they've tanked really hard and they haven't ended up with the right picks in order to do that. Although they also shot themselves in the foot and didn't take Luca Donchish, but that's a whole other story. That's true.

Had the right picks, just not the right players, it turns out. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the Pelicans then because they're in an interesting situation where they probably have a lot of their cornerstone players that they're going to go into this next era with Brandon Ingram's up for restricted free agency to assume he gets a max or something close to it to stick around. Zion is obviously going to be the most important player there as long as he stays healthy. So Kyle, what do you think the Pell's plan should be here? If you're going into this draft, are you comfortable staying at 13, maybe taking someone to replace a Drew Howell? or would you prefer to try to maybe aggregate some of those picks in order to take a huge swing, maybe get the ball brothers back together? Yeah, there's been talk about that. That's one too many balls to juggle, I think was the joke I made the other day. It's a winner, I know.

Yeah, I mean, they're in the middle of the draft. There are some guys that I think could turn into, you know, valuable two-way pieces in the future. I don't know. In the short term, you're just not going to replace something like holiday. I mean, you can try to aim it like we talked about last time, the pieces that could supplement Zion. I don't know. I think I'd go ahead and just stay put for now and kind of wait and see, just kind of survey the landscape like we were talking about, because there's no sort of implied move, in my opinion, right now for them.

Well, KLC has Devin Vassel, I should mention, mock to them at 13 right now. he's kind of like a three and D sort of guy from Florida State, right? Charks. Yeah, Vassel's kind of the plug and play guy in this range of the draft. He's like your McHale Bridges, Cam Johnson, just kind of a guy you know you can bring him in, play the two or the three. Remember when Cam Johnson, like, he was like the bad comp when you didn't want to be Cam Johnson, the like 30-year-old who got picked at 10?

James Jones. Catch up, Justin. James Jones is ahead of everybody. I love Cam Johnson. I didn't know about that high. but that was one, when people were really griping about it, I was like, watch this dude shoot one ball and then tell me you don't like it. Because I just remember he was a transfer, right, Charks?

I think he transferred from Pitt. Then he got hurt, and that's all it was. Why I stayed so late in the college. It's honestly impressive how we know so much about what is successful in the NBA now, and yet people still run away from the things that, like, we know are successful. Like, everyone's like, where do we find shooting? Oh, my God. where can I find a shooter,

especially someone who could swing between the forward positions, and everyone's like, oh, Cam Johnson just shoots like 40% from three. It's fine, but he's like 24, so don't worry about it. Well, I think it's in part because Anthony Morrow played for like every NBA team.

So, you know, everyone's a little shell shocked on the guy who can shoot, but what else? You know, there's some concern. There's some hurt feelings. Yeah. Well, I guess my question is with the Pelicans, Charks, is like, does this open up the possibility

for more of a ball handler? Like, are you looking at Killian Hayes a little bit more if he falls? Can you move up a couple slots for like a Tyrese Halliburton type? Yeah, to me, I look at in New Orleans' roster. Like, if I'm trying to find guys to put around Zion and Ingram, and Lonzo, I guess, if you don't put Lonzo in that discussion. Maybe Josh Hard, if we're really going to get generous.

I think, like, I want a penetrating point guard and a stretch big. That, to me, are like the two pieces that make the most sense. Because right now, Ingram is kind of a shooter. He's a deliberate player. Lonzo is an offball guy. I want someone to get into the lane and kick the ball to somebody else, get the ball moving, and it can spread the floor, and then a stretch big, someone who can open up the lane for Zion. So to me, I guess, like, I guess like big picture,

if I'm looking at the picks for the Pelicans, where this is valuable to me is I can say, you know what, I drafted Jackson Hayes at eight last year, but I'm going to take a stretch big. I'm not going to worry about redundancy there because I have so many draft picks. So that's where that maybe comes in the play as, like, identifying guys and not worrying about sunk costs from last draft picks. What would you think about Kyra? right there. I would love it. That's the guy I was thinking of, actually.

That's exactly the guy I'm thinking. So he's the big from Alabama, right? Kyra, Lewis. No, he's like a, he's basically, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's like, he's got like that long, he's got like that bindi, long, Shay type body, but he's not quite as big. Well, he's the fastest player in this draft by,

I think by substantially. Oh, sure. That's what I meant. Yeah, him. He is incendiary fast. I mean, like, it's insane. And he's got a good, he's got a good jump shot, too. Kira's got a good jump shot.

He's the fastest player in this draft. Yeah, I've got him at 8. He's the guy I won for a lot of these teams in the late lotteries, Cairo Lewis. He's slept on. Yeah. There's going to be a lot of those guys. I feel like that come up in this discussion because like the entire draft is slept

on. Right. It's a sleeper's draft, they say. My favorite Cairo Lewis story is he played Cole Anthony. And Cairo Lewis is a sophomore in college. And Cole Anthony is a freshman in college. And Cairo Lewis is younger than Cole. Like there's some like past present thing going on right there time wise

All right so we hit the Pelicans Is there anything more to say about the thunder? Seems like they're kind of where they are They're at 25 and 28 I think They don't have their own pick But they have Dembers and the Lakers now Any late round steals Kyle that you could think of That might be good for them to maybe take a flyer on

I guess you have the luxury to kind of swing To make like an upside swing I don't know you were talking about a basely, like a basely type that maybe is kind of in a raw or stage. I mean, I keep thinking about R.J. Hampton. He just seems like somebody they would take.

But I also was thinking about what do you think about Jay Scrub? Are you guys familiar with J. Scrubb? He's first team all name in this draft. Yeah. John A. Logan College. You know, Justin normally watches that stuff, but this one time he missed him.

Yes. So, yes, John A. Logan College, he was committed to Louisville and didn't end up coming. And anyway, that's happened to them a lot of times for some reason. But probably because nobody wants to go there. Sorry, Haley. That was a UK fan joke. Anyway, we're moving along here. So Jay Scrub is, he's like a 6-6 left-handed, really, really athletic.

Like his athleticism, he's twitchy. It pops. He's shown some competency, you know, as a slasher. I kind of like his catch-and-shoot mechanics. I think that he just seems like that type of guy that like a team that's, you know, maybe a lower level playoff team could just snag and hang on to and develop. But he seems really thundery to me. I don't know.

So it's funny with Scrubb. I was talking to a Portland Trailblazers blogger who's interviewed Scrubs college coach multiple times. That gives you any idea of how much he's been linked to a certain team. Right. It's like blogger Madlibbs right now. I've heard that. So the guy KOC has with him is a Pocyshevsky, the kind of seven-foot Serbian teenager. And KOC has in his mock that Thudderbin went to Pocyshev for a long time.

And that also fits their whole schiz is like taking a swing on an 18-year-old with a lot of physical upside. What do we need to know about him? Pocchevsky? Yeah. Well, he is an odd player. He's very tall. You keep hearing people talk about, I think I said this last time I was on here, but he's, He's legit seven feet, I'm pretty sure.

Really rail thin. Serbian, he's Serbian. Pretty positive. Serbian, plating grease, yeah. Yes. He moves like a wing. Like, he runs fluidly. The thing I always say about him is you can't tell how fast he is.

If he was just running in a gym without anyone else around, he just, he moves like that. I mean, Fram Frasilla actually came out today and said some things, like dropped an intel bomb. I have no idea why he did that or what motivated that. I thought that was kind of strange, but he's got a really tight shot pocket. His feet, his footwork for a big guy, sort of just unusual for somebody like him. He shoots it really, really quick. But he's somebody that has volatility, like upside, a lot of it. It's going to take some time, though.

I mean, his body is going to have to come around or it's going to be tough for him. So the Thunder have, as a result of that trade there, a couple guys who are veterans that they might just try to rehabilitate. Danny Green is one. Um, who else did they get there? Rookie Rubio, uh, Ubrey, much to Charks' chagrin could ultimately move on if they could find a new home for him. Um, Jalen, look to you. Yeah, that guy who no one had heard about until yesterday and someone looked up that his nickname was like Baby Westbrook. Ty Jerome, too, a guy who people know and think is good, but actually isn't good right now.

So we've got a lot of that going, but Rob, just in terms of like long-term vision, if you're looking at this season, is it all about Shea? And from that perspective, do you think, that they should draft kind of with that in mind, with trying to bring out the best in him if he is their main guy going forward? Oh, definitely. But I think the ThunderRard team that, as we saw last season, can afford to roll out a competitive group, coast it to the trade deadlines, show what these guys can do in a certain kind of setting, and then look to trade an Uber A or a Rubio or an Adams, whatever in the market

for those guys may be. So they have a lot of flexibility. They have a lot of options. And most importantly, they have a lot of time. This isn't a team that is in any kind of urgent situation to do anything. so they can really play out the market with these guys, pit teams against each other for whatever playoff contender hits the trade deadline and really needs a Kelly UberA

to put them over the top. They're in a great position to play all of this, just like Sam Presti has basically been playing half the league like a fiddle over the last year or so. Charks, briefly, what do you think about that fit, Uberay and and Shay and just Uber in general and in the Thunder? Well, I mean, he fits anywhere.

It's just an interesting player, right? It's like the brawl. Six-seven wing. I would actually love him in Dallas down the road now we're talking about it. But yeah, I mean, for Oklahoma City, the question is at what point do you start signing guys to long-term contracts?

Or is Ubrai, it's weird. Like, at what point do you say Ubra is 23, but is he too old for your future, right? I don't even know anymore with Oklahoma City. Like, how far do you want to spin this? When you're trading 23-year-olds or future assets, right? Like, what do we really do here?

Yeah. And it just becomes a Ponzi scheme. Well, the LeBron comparison brought this out in me. I want to put you guys on the spot. What is the hottest player comp you can reasonably defend on this podcast for this draft? What is the furthest limb you're willing to go out on for a player comp for this draft?

I mean, I guess my comp for Pocoshevsky and like, I don't know if this is hot or not, here's a deep cut. He reminds me a lot of Austin Day. That works out well. Yeah, I don't know. I'm into this. I'm into the niche element of this comp, for sure.

I think Day is kind of, that is his floor. But then his ceiling, I know someone in the NBA who has a number two in their big board, right? Like, he's got the widest range of outcomes of anyone in this draft, probably. Like, he'd go up from 2 to, like, 30. It's all possible. If Franfichilla doesn't come for his character tomorrow

in a tweet fleet, yeah, we'll see what happens. I mean, I think Tyrell Terry reminds me of Seth Curry a little bit, like earlier iterations of Seth Curry. I don't know. People are really hyped on him. He's a guy, I know KOC really loves him. He's like a guy who is a really fluid onto offball shooter that you could use.

I could see him becoming like a really high gravity off ball player in the league with, you know, decent size at 6-3. But I think he's a guy that is going to have to, this is me launching into my Tyrol Terry take, but I think he's a guy that's going to take a few years to really cement himself because defensively, going to have to come around and the consistency isn't quite where I would like it to be for him to justify being on the floor. But that's a comp for him. We're not on the mismatch anymore. You can sneak in Tyrell Terry Slander. KFC can't stop you. In KFC's mock, he has R.J. Hampton as taller Roddy Bougois, which I got to say,

Roddy Bubois has really had a, like a renaissance here and not necessarily a positive one where it just seems like he has now become the comp for a guy who is mildly interesting but isn't actually good. I have to say, I've been getting vague Roddy Bubois flashbacks in hearing about just how untouchable Michael Porter Jr. is in Denver. You know, just this idea of this young tantalizing player right on the cusp of something, and we're just going to shut down all trade discussion unless you're willing to throw the kitchen sink at us.

I'm not saying I'm going to bet on Michael Porter Jr. panning out like Roddy Bobois, but it would not entirely surprise me if he did. I will say if Roddy Bu Bois was 6'10, we'd be having a different conversation right now. I think they're different strategies. In his defense. Let's move on to the suns just quickly on the other side of that Thunder trade here.

So they have an interesting pick at 10 now. So they kept this pick as opposed to trading it, gave up a future one for Chris Paul. So in theory, they could add a pretty significant piece here to what is already a young, intriguing core. And then Paul obviously makes them even more intriguing. Charks, anybody stick out to you at 10 who would be a good fit there? The interesting thing is I feel like the Suns probably had the choice to either give up this

pick this year's draft or that 2022 pick. So that tells me they had someone they wanted at 10. And like if we do go by the Sun's history, to me this is where Devin Bissell ends up, most likely. The Suns have spent the last couple years drafting 3 Indie wings later in the lottery. their team that wants to win now. They've been a win now trade. And like,

what history has shown us, if you want to win now player in the draft, I mean, draft a 3-D guy, right? If a rookie can't play in the 3-and-D role, he's probably not going to help your team win at this stage of his career. For them specifically,

I think they just need to, they need to continue to add their flexibility defensively. It's what I've just kind of said over and over again with them. And if you can, you want that person to be able to shoot too. So, I mean, Vesel fits that bill. Really, really well there. I mean, there's a few of the guys.

I mean, I think Sadiq Bay would be a really good fit there, too. You add even more playmaking. He's got great size. Like we said, I think he's like a 40% three-point shooter. A solid character guy can contribute immediately mature. Charks, like we were saying, he's like schematically mature. He's ready to play at the NBA level. He's plug and play as well.

I like him a lot. My comp for him is Darius Miller. I've got a lot of these random comps like that if you want to go real deep. I'm conflicted on that one because I'm like, I love Darius Miller. He's one of my guys, but I almost feel like, I feel like Bay is going to be better than Darius Miller. But so that pains me. You said Darius Miller, right? Yeah, Kentucky Greek, Darius Miller.

I think the main thing for the suns, you have an Ubra-sized chasm in your core now. So you've got to fill that one way or the other. Well, KOC has Isaac Akoro going there. How do we feel about him? in comparison to Vasil. Okay, so this is interesting. So, like, I think most of, like, the draft intelligentsia or whatever, I love Acro. Whereas I'm at the point now where I just hate drafting guys who can't shoot.

I'm just completely over it. I don't, I can't remember the last guy on the lottery who was a seen as a non-shooter who panned out. Kyle, who comes to mind is that? Like, this is a non-shooting wing with good feel who became a good NBA player. Oh, man. I think once I have a theory that just kind of once you're past 18 years old, you're, you're, your chances of becoming a good shooter are just, they just plummet.

Like it's, it depends on the person and it really depends on where they go. Like, Okoro, though, I mean, he's way more of a, to me, he fits the mold of the types of guys that like,

Nick Nurse has really gotten a lot out of in the last few years, like really just brawny wings that are like really flexible and long. Um, and, and can close out, close gaps quickly. Like, he's he's a heck of an athlete like for real uh would you who do you think is the better just top

to bottom athlete between akoro and vassel would you say okoro is easily the better athlete but to me it's like the foundation of a jumper's not there so you're drafting guy you can have to build this foundation for a jump shot and it's like man the sun's charted with josh jackson it did not work and even the success stories or shooters like erin gordon's success story as a shooter and erin gordon still can't really shoot right yeah he was terrible last year. Well, Charks, who was the non-shooter who broke your heart? Who hurt you? I'm trying to think. There's been so many. You know, I mean, you go back to like my old kid Gilchrest, Justice Winslow, you know, like Stanley Johnson.

Kid Gilchrist, as the Hornets, Draymond, is still the most shark shit I've ever heard in my life. Did you say that? And I love it. I did. I had that take out there for a while. That didn't work out. You especially just start thinking about sort of the factors that converge on a player who is trying to develop and learn how to shoot. You think about defenses get smarter, they get faster. Something that really always just kind of is impressed upon me is just how quickly you have to shoot in the NBA, and how much you have to be able to relocate quickly in the NBA, because teams are scheming and building rosters to cover the floor in this horizontal way. The NBA is very lateral these days.

You have to be fast. So if you're not a great shooter and you're trying to get better, you better have at least like a good foundation to build on like Charks was talking about because it's just incredibly cutthroat to learn in that environment. And the bar for shooting, it keeps raising and raising and raising, right? I feel like in five years, if you can't movement shoot, you might be in trouble. If you can't relocate and shoot quickly, maybe you're already in trouble now. We're already there, in my opinion.

at the highest level. Like, you know, the heat really, really hammer on this that like they, they want their guys. They have to be able to sidestep. Like, they have no interest in to take that 18, you know, 15 to 18 footer. You have to be able to move left or right or backwards and be able to shoot with efficiency from that range. And if you haven't been doing that, it's hard to do. Hard to learn.

Rob, if we're just looking in a vacuum, what do the suns really need? Because they're in an interesting situation where, depending on when they made that trade, They could have either had a bunch of cap space to go after a veteran, or they could have prioritized keeping Dario Sarich. They went the latter route. You'd assume that they're going to try to offer him something to stick around or match on anything in order to keep him to pat out their front court. If you're just looking in terms of what they need after that for Chris Paul,

Sun's team, like, what's at the top of your list? Yeah, I mean, in a post-UBRE world, they feel a little wing light to me. And maybe that's just a group chat cliche at this point. team is like two wings light of where we would like them to be. But unless you're like really into Abdu Nader, I just don't see how they have enough minutes to quite fill out those positions the way you would want. So if you can find, as they were saying, a plug and play guy who can slide in where, you know, where they are in the draft because they kind of made their bed in terms of what they're going to be able to do in free agency by the timing of this trade, that would be great. I don't know

that that player is out there necessarily, but that's kind of where I see the need for them right now. two wings away from being two wings away. Always. Well, that brings me to our next team because the Houston Rockets now have a draft pick. And I'm curious because on face value, it seems like they got kind of robbed here because Rob Covington for Trevor Areza is a bit of a steal. Like Arisa showed a little bit more in Portland that he did in Sacramento. So maybe there's still like some juice in the lemon left there.

But they need players if they intend on keeping James Hardin, which seems like, less likely by the hour. They need actual contributors. And so I'm curious, what do you look for if you're the Rockets? Is this like the opportunity, I believe they're at 16 now with this pick from Portland, to load up more on wings in order to get some value back there? Or do you just go with a big man just because, you know, you need a large human in the center of your defense sometimes?

What do you think, Charks? See, I'm normally a big believer. and I like building cores that fit well together. So when you have a young core, I'm a big believer in drafting guys who make sense and roles that fit. But the Rockets literally have no young core. Do they have one player under 30 who's any good?

In two weeks, they may have no core, period. Yeah. So to me, you're at 16. This is the first piece of a rebuilding project, right? Like, there's just nothing there right now. So whoever is good, it really doesn't matter what position they play, what their skill set is.

like it makes no difference because there's nothing there right now. Pretty much. I mean, yeah, there's just nothing to like you're, you don't, I always say this over and over again, but you look for kind of implied directions whenever you're talking about what you want to do in the draft. Like it's hard to talk about fit when you're not, you know, the whole idea of fitting implies that there's something else there and there's just not. So I mean, and for them, yeah, I guess you can kind of go for an upside play, you know, if you could get like a Pocoshefsky right there.

I know we keep talking about him. I mean, who's the other like biggest upside play in the draft, would you say? Who's second? Because I feel like Pocofsky is like hammered to death in terms of talking about him on that level. I mean, I think we've talked to them before in the pod. I think Jaden McDaniels, if you're just taking a wild swing of talent. So that's a 610 wing from Washington.

So 610 wing, right? Like something like that. Maybe if you take a point guard, because I do feel it's important. to have a point card when you rebuild, right? Without a playmaker, everyone else kind of runs around in circles. There's no real structure to your team. There'll be a lot of point cards available at 16,

a lot of bigger playmakers maybe. Maybe an RJ Hampton here. I don't know. So KOC has precious... Atchaia? Yes, there you go. And he says he's considered a top ten prospect by some scouts around the league.

Is he the type of guy who maybe fits that bill, a guy with some upside, but maybe is too raw? I don't know. I was just talking. with some Memphis people yesterday about this. I actually have a little more faith in precious than I think the average person does, because I think that he, if the parameters are like correct and the expectations for him are correct, I think that he could play in the NBA for a long time. Like, I mean, he's a long runner-jumper. Like, he's kind of, I like his motor.

Something that I'm encouraged by is that he's already shown that he's open to adapting his game and sort of schematically being malleable because if you watched him his junior year of high school he played uh or senior year of high school he played at mont verd with this guy kate cunningham which is going to be a name you're going to hear a lot about really coveted guy but he was playing as like this six nine athletic dribble jump shooter and he was really wildly inefficient about at it and it kind of lowered my stock and i know a lot of people kind of came down on him but at memphis this past year when wiseman was ruled ineligible, he had to play more five. So you saw his game sort of adjust,

and he accepted that from what I could tell on court. I think that he's the type of guy that NBA teams are going to be needing because he's like a really flexible, athletic, good-motored, guy that can guard multiple positions. I think eventually he's going to be hitting threes. I like him in the right context.

I think the idea with Precius is that he kind of has Montrez's game with a jump shot. Like that's like the hope when you draft someone like precious is that. Should we turn to the top of the draft now? Because we've been talking about this for weeks, probably even longer. So it seems like the top three guys, Lamello ball, James Wiseman and Anthony Edwards are going to shuffle through those first three picks in some position. Maybe you get an outlier here. I think what's interesting here is we keep seeing flipping between like who fits best versus who is like what teams are going to go for the whole.

home run swing. You would assume that the home run guy at the top of the draft is Lamella Ball. Anthony Edwards might be a little bit more of a better fit for the guys that they have their cat and DeAngelo Russell. Charks, if you're drafting from one, I think it'd be the interesting to discuss, like, you made all this, you've done all the prep at this point. We've gone through all the different possibilities. You can't get a trade now.

What are you prioritizing? someone who fits better around cat or maybe the bigger swing who could potentially be a superstar that you can't get anywhere else. I mean, I guess that is the question, right? With all, like the sons with Booker, the Hawks with Trey Young, because you build a team. You've got to make the playoffs. But you also have to think, at what point are these guys going to start getting unhappy? Do you have to worry about that? And do you draft someone who you like, do you draft your Michael Porter, right? Do you draft someone who can like maybe, a star in three or four years.

It's like there's two different timelines of the same. Right, Justin, when you're in New Orleans, Danthe Davis problem basically, right? Like the guys who need you to playoffs right now, but they also limit your ceiling, the new draft guys who maybe can't help you right now and they're even more miserable because the team really sucks, but the growth three, four from years from now is huge, right?

That balance probably for all small markets is always intention. Well, I thought it was interesting, Justin, that you laid out, you know, how do these guys fit with Kat versus how do these guys fit with Kat and Russell? because I think there's a meaningful line there, right? Like Carl Anthony Towns, unquestionably, the talent, you take into all considerations when you make any decisions of franchise. I think the wolves want Russell to be in that category.

I don't know that his game has put him in that group just yet. Yeah, you think Kat also wants him to be in that category and it's probably what the motivation was. Kyle, what do you think? I think it's extremely tough for the wolves because, you know, for them to have the good fortune to get this pick, you know, this is a tough year for it because the fit at the top. Like I was just kind of taking a look at some of Russell's defensive and team defensive

numbers and tape earlier. And the idea of putting Kat as the anchor of a defense with lamello ball and DiAngelo Russell, you know, being asked out front to guard, you know, ball handlers and switches and things and guys coming at the rim. to put your unequivocally, like your offensive one at the backline of that is tough, in my opinion, like because ball was one of the worst on ball defenders this past year of any prospect in this class. Like he was rough. And to put him and Russell together on the court, I think, you know, Charks and I were talking about this.

Who do you put on the court with those two? I mean, Akogi and Culver, was that the other guy you said, Charks? Yeah, that's on their roster right now. Yeah. So, yeah, and in terms, I've kind of just drifted towards thinking that Edwards might be a better idea here for them fit wise, but I'm not wild about it at all, honestly, because I don't know that it really immediately gives you this core that you're just like, I love this. You know, it's not your traditional core that you would feel wonderful about moving forward. Like, I just feel uneasy about it, to be honest. you know what's interesting, right? We talk about the draft. So DiAngelo is 23.

He's been in the league four years, and we're still not totally sure on what he's going to be, right? And like, think about that. That means a guy he draft now in 2024, maybe we're still going to be unsure about him, right? By that same. DeAngelo is the number two overall pick,

and we're still kind of guessing on him a little bit. We've had so much time to watch him play in the NBA. All these guys are, though, right? Edwards is 19. Wiseman is the same thing, Lamello also. I feel like I know who Russell is at this point. The problem is who he is,

one, and how much he's getting paid to do so. Like, the Warriors pulled off just like a brilliant piece of business by turning Katie's departure into essentially just like a money hold in order to flip that

for different players, but they ultimately got this draft pick and, or not this traffic, but the wolf's draft pick coming up. Yeah, if you say that though, Justin, The Warriors got Andrew Wiggins at $30 million a year

and a mid to late lottery pick. So maybe that's a lot, maybe it's not, right? Sure, but they're at a point where they can't really add anything just because of how blow to their salaries are going to be for a while. And, like, as we saw, like, those guys matter, especially in the playoffs. And, like, they're still hunting with this trade exception to find some semblance of an Iqadala who they don't really have in their roster.

And I think, quite frankly, they need if they want to go up against, like, the Lakers of the world. So, well, I think, you know, before we move off the wolves and the topic, I think we'd be remiss not to mention, you know, James Wiseman in this conversation and to paraphrase him that in terms of talking to the wolves, he hasn't. Yeah, it doesn't seem like he's a great fit there. No. Well, I mean, I guess how about this, though? Like, the logic of Wiseman is that he's an offensive-minded center and Kat's really a four, right? Because Cat, I don't know.

I mean, it's kind of a stretch because you're asking Kat, because Kat's got to guard someone, right? I know Cat doesn't want to like guarding him with the rim is tough so guarding on the perimeter is tough too but he has to guard somebody at some point so give me a guy who can guard behind him make sense on some level right?

Let me ask you this because we're on this like who's going to be the better defender long term is it Lamello or is it going to be Anthony Edwards or is that just like such an easy question? Edwards has more tools I think

to be like a ball pressure guy I think that he's you know physically he's a bit more explosive athlete lead. I think Lamello's ceiling, I think, is, like I said in this video that I just put out, I'll plug now on the Rear's YouTube about Lamello. I think that his ceiling is like savvy team defender that's positionally kind of just holds the line. I don't really ever, he's not the kind of athlete that could be disruptive or correct mistakes. He doesn't really have the build to be somebody that could, you know, take on like a sturdier player. He's six, seven, but I don't see him taking on like a

like a four, three, like a Jimmy Butler. He's definitely not guarding like stronger wings or thwarting them. I think that Edwards has a lot more flexibility on that front. But then realistically, right, even in the best case scenario, these guys are probably two to three years away from playing defense, right? You're asking a 19-year-old ball-dominant offensive player to learn how to play defense at the NBA level. And three years from now, now you're like,

that's a long time to wait for Kat and DiAngelo. Like, it's a weird spot to be in with the draft. Like, it just takes time for these young guys. and that's where you wonder if trading back makes sense for them if they can find the trade. Yeah, this is a rare instance where at least the top two teams in the draft have expectations to be competitive next year with the wolves that seems almost impossible considering all the teams that are loading up in the Western Conference that someone's bound to not make it into the playoffs. And I would guess it's the team that can't play defense and probably is going to rely on like an 18-year-old to play significant minutes for them. but yeah it's just it's a really fast in anything because even the warriors they probably if they draft wiseman they need him to go guard a big man if not in the regular season

then definitely in the playoffs one thing i'm thinking though as you guys are talking about it so if they never made the trade for russell if the wolves were just looking at cat and just cat flotsam and i guess they would have molyth easily and a couple other minor pieces does that change the equation kyle do you think like we'd be talking more about lemel ball simply because there isn't that like duplicativeness between ball and potentially russell i think they're really similar i don't know if everybody agrees with me on that but they they they in terms of their feel the way they move the way they shoot their idea of themselves they just i don't know i just i really think of russell a lot when i when i watch ball um and i'm watching russell for a good bit them

together to me is problematic like i was saying earlier and if d'angelo is not there yeah i think i I think that Lamello is probably the implied pick, in my opinion, to put here. I'm really hoping for the best for a team like Charlotte to swoop in, whether it's with ball, whether it's with trading for up to get Wiseman, whatever the situation may be, just because, you know, not to circle back and hammer Michael Kidd Gilchrist too hard in this conversation, but they've been one of those franchises that's on the cusp of getting the elite guy all the time. And if this is the draft where they can finally land one of those players, you know, it transforms your franchise.

It changes everything. And they're a team that needs a little bit of that juice, maybe more than most. Yeah, I kind of wanted to talk about the most interesting teams going into draft night to wrap it up here and to jump the line a little bit. I was going to bring up the Hornets. They're really fascinating to me because while, as we talked about the wolves and the Warriors kind of have these fixed superstars to work around and kind of plan around and that will change who they end up drafting, I do wonder if the Hornets are such a blank canvas that they can go in any direction. They could stay at three and just pick the third guy that the first two teams didn't pick and just go from there and just plug and play them in. They can also trade up.

There's been some buzz about maybe they'll trade up to one. KOC had something in his mock draft that they want Wiseman, but he might not be there at three. And then you have this Russell Westbrook buzz. So like most years, they can do anything because they have nothing to really prevent them to doing so. And that just makes them like completely fast. And as we've seen, Michael Jordan will just jump the line and just make the wild pick of just like someone who is successful in college.

Yeah, and if you look at like, to go what Rob was saying, like look at their top three picks in their head, our top four picks. It's a Mecca O'Kee, Forre, Adam Morrison, Michael Kid Gilchrest, Cody Zeller. That's your four top four picks in 20 years. Well, and look at who was taken like one spot above those guys or one spot after. You're missing Dwight Howard. You're missing Anthony Davis. you're missing. I think like Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldridge. I can't remember who was the Adam Morrison

draft. You know, some like real legit players that could have done a lot of good for that franchise that has kind of languished. Morrison could have been a little bit better, I think. He injured his knee pretty brutally his first season, didn't he? I mean, I'm not saying he would have been a star. I always just have to jump in

when people talk about Morrison. Well, I'm not even saying these are all like catastrophic misses. They just didn't quite pan out. Totally. And this is where like taking a safe pick that high, there's the downside of it, right? When you're a franchise like that, sometimes you just got to go for the high upside pick because if you're Charlotte, either you're training for Russell Westbrook or you're getting someone 19 who might be able to be Russell Westbrook one day. No way in between. How is that disposition different from, let's say, Golden State keeps their pick? Should they have the same mentality in terms of let's find our Kauai Leonard to kind of extend the core of this team, an ex-super star, or do you play it safer? Do you play for an Nemeca Ocalfour type in this type of draft where you want somebody who can at least contribute?

That's a great question. And I think it just goes to, if you're going to do that, though, like, do you have the patience to actually draft the project there, right? But if you draft the project and you're getting blasts in the media 12 months from there, right? Like, that's the thing. Like, to have the courage of your convictions to actually do that, that requires a lot of long-term commitment. I would say make the pick. This has kind of been the conversation about them for a while. And on the one hand, I think their hand has kind of been forced by the trades earlier this week.

Just like there is no more true holiday. Like, I don't know. Some of these other guys, they couldn't get in the mix for just seems like they'd be really forcing things and maybe not meeting the value of the number two overall pick. And like, when are you ever, if you're any team going to get this opportunity? We just talked about like what a crapshoot it is just to get into the top three of the draft. You were like one of the best teams of a generation all of a sudden. you get like the opportunity to lend bias the hell out of your franchise and like actually make it work. And so I don't know. I mean, just just make the pick. And like how long,

I don't know if we talked about this on a podcast or maybe this is just sharks and I, but like how long is Draymond Green going to be viable, especially at his number? Like obviously one of the best defenders in the league definitely makes that whole defense run. But like, that guy is not going to age well. And if you have the opportunity to take a like a, a super-to-toldsy big man who could really just, like, potentially bring your existing core to another level, but also provide you a pathway out of, like, the Draymond Green era or even, like, Steph down the road?

Like, that seems, like, amazing. Like, why are we overthinking this, is my question? That's where there is buzz about lamello ball there now. Like, KOC has that in his mock. He says, like, the ownership wants Lamello. Yeah, for that exact logic, like thinking of five, ten years down the road from now. It's not crazy.

I wouldn't go that far. did work so well there. I could see why you want ball. A guy we just said was almost exactly like him to plug in instead. Yeah, I wouldn't take it that far, but I would do it for Wiseman. He fits, though, their system. Lamello's a big guard. He can play multiple positions. He can rebound. They like to move the ball

around. They like Steph and Clay to play off the ball. It's not crazy. Maybe it is, I don't know. Maybe I've watched too much this draft. This feels like the problem with this draft, though. It's easy to talk yourself into a concept of what a team should do, and then you start talking about what players that would actually involve, and you start getting real squeamish really quickly. I like it from a skills development standpoint. I mean, it would be a good place for

Lamello's specific challenges to go, but I don't know, man, can you, it's a dicey thing. Yeah, I'm just, I don't know. There's no real fit. I love Lamello. That's kind of the thing, don't just like take that as a drop. But like, I love his game, but I just have so many questions about his fit at places. He's one of the otter, like most talented players in a draft that I can remember, honestly.

Like, because when I just appraise his talent, I'm like, well, yeah, he's the best at these things, no question. But then you start looking at it, and a lot of people have said this to me,

they're like, well, if he has these challenges, when was the last time a number one pick was like, yeah, we're not sure of it of a shooting

and he can't guard anybody. The more I think about it, though, like Golden State wants high IQ players. They want really good passers. They want bigger wings who can, move multiple positions.

Lamello does have a lot of size. Like, their system is a weird system. I don't know. I'm starting to buy it. I'm starting to get on board this Lamello to go on the state train. He's used to playing fast. That's one argument, too,

is that, like, you can play fast. He's grown up. He's been conditioned to play that way. The question is just his efficiency once you get in the playoffs and you can't play fast like that all the time. And that's been something

that's revealed a lot of his wards. Well, the player, Charks just laid out. It sounds like Lamello isn't the next Steph Curry. He's the next, Andre Iguodala. He is like the weird playmaking wing for this

team somehow. Basically if Andre couldn't guard, yeah. Yeah. See, I was going to say Sean Livingston, but I guess that would require him to guard as well. Well, to me, Halliburton makes the most sense for the Warriors, but you know, would they want to pick him at two as the question? I don't know. I think he's a

perfect fit for the Warriors. He makes the most sense for the wolves, too, on skill set. It's just a matter, do you take a guy who's not going to be a star that high, right? To go back to what we were just saying about swinging for the fences at the top of the draft. Yeah, this is how Anthony Bennett ends up getting drafted. This is exactly how that happens.

Are there any other teams as we're going through here now that are super intriguing? Maybe not at the top of the draft, but maybe even the bulk of the middle of this draft. I mean, to me, Chicago at four. That's where, like, everyone says the draft starts Chicago at four because there's a top three and there's a big drop off. They have a new front office. They have a lot of young players who may not fit that well together. It's kind of unclear.

As many as before, though. Very interesting week out of Chicago. What, like, what is happening there? So they got rid of Chris Dunn, who was restricted free agent, he was. Would have been, yeah. Would have been. And then also Shaq Harrison, who, you know, a fringier player, more of a project, but, you know, certainly an interesting one.

I think John Hollinger at the Athletic Hadam is, like, his most interesting free agent on the board. So I'll tell you something. I kind of respect the balls of just being like, nah, like I didn't, I want none of this. On the other hand, it seems a bit odd to just move on without getting any sort of value in return, which leads me to wonder, like, what it means for draft night. Does it automatically mean like they're going to look at a playmaker? I mean, they need one, right? Like, they need a passer on that team.

So it makes sense from that perspective. I mean, Denny makes a lot of sense there for them. I mean, I think that they have a lot of tools that could be, I hate people say this, but unlocked. I mean, they have a lot of guys that could really be elevated by another playmaker. And, and yeah, I think, I mean, I'm a big, I'm a big pro Winnell Carter Jr. guy. And I think that he is a lot more upside than I think that we have talked about, honestly. So the other team I want to mention just before we go here, the Celtics, who we referred to earlier as the prime example of why you don't aggregate picks.

So they have three first round draft picks. and as I mentioned, like, they doesn't have the roster spots, and I think they're up against the luxury tax. There was this Zach Lowe report just before we started recording here about how Gordon Hayward and the team have agreed to push back the deadline for when he has to either opt in or opt out of his final year of his contract, which leads me to believe that, like, there's something cooking or maybe they're waiting for something to or not to happen on draft night.

I don't know, but clearly they're up to something. if only because Danny Age is always up to something and most of the time, even if he isn't up to something, he'll tell us that he was up to something and it just didn't work out. But they're definitely in a situation where they have all these guys and they need blue-trip guys rather than just like B or C-level guys. So I don't know. If they could roll something together, it'd be super interesting.

You know what's funny? Time really is a flat circle because they have three first-round picks are trying to trade up for. Maybe these were the same picks than that Justice Windle's should never happen. They don't even know anymore. But like, this to be a team, I would take those three picks and move up as high as I could go. Kyle, don't you feel this is the Akangu team? Like, this is the guy exactly they need on their roster.

Yeah, I mean, Akangu, I was talking to somebody the other day. I mean, I don't think that, yeah, I mean, he's the type of piece to, and this is something interesting, too, that I think it works in Akanglu's favor is that when people talk about, like, he used to play at Chino Hills with the ball brothers back in the day. and I was thinking about those teams, and I was like, man, they must have been really terrible, but they, like, won a lot. Like, if you go back and they would beat really good high school teams, and one of the reasons for that was Akungu was, like, at the back of that, like, rapid pace that they would play.

And that's how they would get away with it, is that he was such, even as a younger kid, he was, like, a really strong defender positionally. And he's, to me, more of, like, he kind of reminds me of Al Horford. Like, I think that he's just sort of a guy that you could shuttle in there. he's like, he's going to be ready to play earlier. Like, can you imagine the draft nerds how crazy they're going to go if, like, Grant Williams

and Akang Wu are on the floor at the same time? Well, Kyle, why would they have been a bad high school team? They had three lottery picks. I know, I know, I know, but like L.A. That doesn't make sense. Well, L.A., you know, there's a lot of good teams out there. You just would watch the way they play, be like, how does this work? But, I mean, stylistically, a Kongwu is just,

I guess I was trying to compliment him in some, way that didn't quite work there. But anyway, Jello was a team killer. You know he was. What if Jello shows up in the year, in like a couple years here as like a solid 3-indee wing and we just like totally underestimated him? It's only a matter of time,

honestly. I think my big question here with the Celtics is like, and just in general with any team that has a lot of these low round picks, it's like, who wants to move down? Like I remember when the kings moved out of the pick that ultimately became Zach Collins. I'm like, why do do you do that? Why does a team that's

building really need two bites at, it's not the apple because an apple would be too good. And Apple is like the first or second pick. This would be just like a browning plum or something like that. I don't know. But like it's just like Detroit, for instance, there are a team that I've heard or read, whatever that might consider moving down. Like, why would you move out of a top 10 pick in order to just get like just these worst lottery tickets, I guess? Well, I think the Hayward thing makes it so that doesn't have to be the only case, right? Like, you could do Hayward and one of the, one or two of these picks for a player on a longer term contract on another team.

You know, Gordon gets everything he wants. He gets his millions of dollars. He gets a situation where he gets to play more. And maybe the Celtics get a little of what they want, too, in terms of somebody who fits their core a little bit more smoothly. Not that Hayward doesn't, but clearly he isn't getting everything he wants out of that situation. And that's, we were talking about Atlanta, I think, last week.

That makes a ton of sense, Atlanta at six. But all, maybe that kind of. Sharks to see in the board. He's got the whole beautiful mind thing up here. All the pieces matter. It's a lot of Kelly Ubrae photos and wings who can't shoot. Which, by the way, they made him, they made a model that was New Jersey, and they traded him the next day.

It's a cold world out there, man, the NBA. I'm counting all that Ubrae slights. All right. On that note, I already made a bad metaphor, so I think this is time to wrap it up. Kyle, thank you for joining us. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. If you're looking for more draft content, we've got a bunch of it on the ringer on Wednesday night. So the ringer's pre-draft show is going to be live streaming on Twitter and all those sorts of platforms that the young end of like.

KOC is going to be with Ryan Rucillo before the show. And then there's going to be a post-draft show that I believe is going to happen sometime around the end of the first round. That's going to have Ryan, KOC and Bill. those will all be on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook, and then the next morning, Thursday morning, if we're keeping track here, you can catch Charks, KOC, and J. Kyle Mann, talk about the draft and everything else that falls out of Wednesday night. Until then, we will see you next time.