The Ringer NBA Show - Rockets in Retrograde: Lakers Punish Houston in Game 4 | The Mismatch

Episode Date: September 11, 2020

Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor discuss the Rockets’ abysmal showing against the Lakers in Game 4 and what potential moves the team might make in the likely event they lose the series (1:53). They then discuss the down-to-the-wire Game 6 between the Celtics and Raptors (26:31), Kawhi’s dominance in the playoffs versus the regular season (41:59), and the age-old question of whether Giannis will stay or go (58:07). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Heineken original logger is made with pure malt and their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season all-the-time kind of beer. It's game seven tonight, Celtics Raptors, and I'll be enjoying that game with a nice Heineken. Pick up a pack or have it delivered today and drink responsibly. Now to the mismatch. Hey guys, this is Chris Vernon. Before the show gets started today, I do want to fall on the sword.

I screwed up the audio. The first 15 minutes of the podcast is all my fault. Therefore, you have to promise me you're going to listen to it no matter what. The audio is good enough to listen to and the conversation is brilliant. Anyway, I'm sorry. Welcome to The Ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Friday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor,

a. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Candell, Kevin O'Candell, Kevin O'Candell, Kevin O'Clyland, Kevin O'Clymouth. Burdell, I've been waiting all day for tonight's show. I'm excited to do this. Well, we were going to be doing this show a little bit earlier. We were recording this on Thursday night. We contacted each other and we said, this is not going to be very competitive.

The Lakers were up by almost 25 points on the Houston Rockets. And in the interest of full disclosure, we have delayed the recording of this because the rocket, decided to start playing there at the end and went on this ridiculous 17 to 2 run. Next thing we know, it went from a 23-point game

to an 8-point game to like a 5-point game. And it got competitive there at the end. It did. It got competitive, but who cares? It was an abysmal defensive effort from this Houston team from the jump. What does it matter that when the Lakers are like, this is over, we're going to take it easy,

that Houston suddenly started trying their last gasp for air, their last chance. So what? They blew an opportunity in this series by playing what I think is really one of their worst defensive games of their entire postseason. And you can't, of course, underrate the loss of Daniel House with him being out for whatever weird reasons there are for having the person in their hotel room. But bottom line is for the Rockets. This is a bad defensive effort.

Then on the offensive end of the floor, James Hardin getting double teamed. Russell Westbrook not able to make the defense pay. Nobody else able to make plays off the dribble because all they can do is shoot spot up threes. And Hardin never moves off ball, which is maybe his fault or Dantone's fault or both their faults. I don't know.

I don't care. The fact is is that Houston has so many freaking problems that need to be solved when you have this guy, like James Harden, this all-time level offensive player. And this happens, two of 11 in this game, and you can't get them working off ball at all. You can't change what you do. It's so freaking frustrating to watch this team. Okay.

Let me say this. I do think that there is a massive portion of it that the Lakers took their foot off the gas. They were up by 23. We've talked about this so many times over the years. The way you blow a team out is by getting stops. and all of the things that they were doing defensively to make life hell for the Rockets, those ceased. That 17 to 2 run was easy pickings for the Rockets.

You know, they're getting looks at the basket. They hadn't gotten all game. They're getting over in threes. Yeah, they're not under duress. That being said, I do wonder if, just hear me out, it's a 23-point game or whatever it was. And then there's this 17 to 2 run. And you cannot help but notice what adjustment is made there. And is it just the Lakers took their foot off the gas?

Or did the rockets kind of stumble into something here? Because they did not play P.J. Tucker. They did not play Robert Covington. They did not. That was, that ship has sailed. You know, between the second half of the lake, stymying them in game three. And then what we saw tonight, especially in that first half,

and really three quarters of this game, you know, that that's just not going to work. And so what do they do? They go crazy small. They say, okay, we're getting demolished on the boards. We can't score any points in the paint. We're getting killed in that. So instead of trying to match up like,

this anymore at all. We're getting killed doing this. We might as well just play five wide. And so they put in, you know, they got Ben McLemore in there for a little bit, but then they really end up with, they stumble into Austin Rivers and Jeff Green. Is this five wide or is like the wildcat?

I mean, I don't know. That small? I mean, it's five guards. I mean, Jeff Green's the biggest guy on the team that's playing for him down the stretch. And it's like, okay, is this, is this the type of, adjustment. They have to make weirdly, they look at it and they say, all right, we're finally

being punished for being small. So what is the answer? Go smaller. And so that's what they did. They just end up playing like five guards basically in this game down the stretch. And so is that something that actually did the Lakers problems? No. No. No. The game was over. It was three. We see this all the time. There's like five minutes left. I know. You have a huge lead. Teams take their foot off the gas all the freaking time. Right. Got it down to five. Then the Lakers start really turning it back on and they get it back

up to 10. Of course, it's just a couple minutes left. But still, I'm not reading too much into that. You need PJ Tucker. You need PJ Tucker to win the series. You need Robert Covington to win the series. There's no solution here for Houston. They're not winning a series anyway. I know, but I'm just saying. I'm just saying competitive. It hasn't been competitive until. You need PJ Tucker, you need Robert Covington to be competitive over the duration of a game. But for what? I mean, that's what I'm saying.

I'm shocked. I am utterly shocked. You didn't take the opportunity when I was just hating on James Hardin to be like, I told yourself. This is who he is. I mean, this is not new. So you're the guy saying now old news, old news, I told you. I told you. I mean, look, it's two for 11.

I mean. Yeah, but what? No, no, I just want to point this out. And watching the Bronches hit layups past him, like the whole game. This week for the restart, we made our video about Russell Westbrook. And one of the sections in that video was about how with Ross this year in Houston, he, 21% of his assists have come out of the pick and roll. It was double last year with OKC.

42% of his assists came out of the pick and roll. And I made the point how, you know, maybe that's one reason it feels like his passing is worse because what he was best at was pick and roll playmaking you got rid of clinskapella your only big man who could set screens roll hard of the heart of the rim like stephen adams did for years in okay c and then you also have james hardin the way you use him is you have him stand there half court like you have hated on him before before like many people have houston does that danton's own words he says it's like to create a four and four for everybody else and to rest harden you don't want hardin moving off ball and getting tired i guess i guess

that over the duration of the regular season. I don't understand it on a night like this when the Lakers are pressuring you trying to get the ball out of your hands, trying to make others make plays off the dribble. When Hardin was a guy, in OKC was one of the league's best, most efficient, most lethal scores off of screens, off of handoffs, off of cuts, just like he was his first two years in Houston before he's turned into an all-time great offensive player. It took taking that away from him to make him an all-timer in the regular season. It took that for him to be great in the postseason. But there's these situations like tonight where I'm like, boy, it would be really nice to see a screen action for James Hardin to get him the ball easy. Boy, it would be nice to see

him spotting up in the corner when Ross is running a high pick and roll and you have Hardin cutting to the lane. Boy, it would have been nice to see that. And if you're Darrell Mori, you've got to be looking at this team like, you know what? We need more variety to take advantage of this player we have and Harden and Westbrook assuming you keep him moving forward. It's got to change because, you know, you have your points about Hardin. Some of them, like I agree with, some of them I don't. But one thing I think we do definitely agree on is the fact he can't continue being the same guy that we've seen over the years.

It needs to be more variety from him for them to reach the level that they can and probably should. Well, here's one of the big issues. and especially when we're watching all these other really good basketball. There's a lot of good teams right now, which are, you see Kauai Leonard average in 29 points a game, and he is doing that within a team concept, right? That whole Houston team is built around that guy. So he has to be great.

There is no choice. The whole thing is him. Like those guys can't do anything on their own. That's the whole basis of it. And so what happened? Just to interject there. it's amazing seeing these Houston players that are so used to catching the ball and shooting it getting run off the line and having to make a decision this is not something that they're used to

doing or comfortable doing at all no he creates everything and so what happens when when he's not scoring i mean he averaged you know he's a lead leading scorer and and if he's not scoring he's setting everybody else up and it's like okay when your whole system is based on that what happens when that guy, when he's going to, when the team, and we talked about this throughout the year, I said, in these one-off games, they're going to be devastating. But when somebody gets to plan for them for seven games, they're going to figure out, okay, here's what we need to do in order to exploit this. And, you know, Oklahoma City, I thought did a good job with it, honestly. Like it wasn't, he did not kill them, especially in those last couple of games. But with the Lakers, you have seen because, you know, look, and you've chronicled this,

and this is on the coach and this is on Hardin, whoever we want to put it on. It's on everybody. He's useless if he doesn't have the ball. He has to have the ball or else what, nobody throws it to him and he makes a basket. He never cuts to the basket to go get a layup. He never grabs an offensive rebound. I mean, like, it's a misuse of his talents. Like I said, he was one of the league's best, one of the best off screens, handoffs and cuts,

whether it's statistically, which is true if you look at Synergy's numbers, or just watching the film. He's a guy off ball who is so good at using his body to create space at slightly bumping defenders to generate room, using pivots and fakes to get to the basket. One of the best off ball, just like he is on. ball with the ball on his hands. We see it with his footwork and his ability to create space with the ball. How do you not utilize that off the ball in the freaking playoffs? How do you let your best player become a zero as soon as he gives the ball up? That to me is really unforgivable.

I can't stand it at this point. I've enjoyed watching Houston. I've never been a person who hates watching the Rockets. I love seeing their innovative style. But there needs to be an evolutionary. here after you're seeing what's not working. There just has to be. Blending what works well for other star players, you see like a guy like, he's not going to be Stefan Curry. There is no Stefan Curry besides Steph.

But can't you take a little bit of what he does with the off ball movement? Steph gives up the ball and he is immediately a threat. Immediately a threat. He relocates for threes. He's constantly moving. It may be hard and can't do it to that extent. That's unfair to ask of anybody. But take a little bit of that to make him more than a one-dimensional.

on-ball score when he has that in his game. We've seen it before. That, that to me is the number one thing I'm looking, looking at Houston this off season, assuming they lose the series down 3-1, they might as well have lost already. They're not coming back and winning three in a row versus the Lakers, not against LeBron James and Anthony Davis. Houston, this off season, they got to be thinking, how can we unleash Harden off ball to make him a more dynamic threat in the biggest games of the season? Not just the regular season, the biggest games of the season in the playoffs. That's the number one. thing and whether that's making big moves in a trade dealing Westbrook or whether it's keeping Westbrook and finding more guys who can carry off the dribble or whether it's finding a cheaper center who can set on ball screens for you a guy who's cheaper than Cliff Capella making around $17 million a year or whether it's changing the coach Mike danton's contract is up and there's belief around the league he won't be back hey you haven't you haven't you haven't there's only one thing you haven't mentioned darrell hardin I am talking about hardin changing. He needs to play off ball. No, I'm saying you talked about trading Westbrook,

getting rid of the coach or whatever else. What if they just say, all right, we've had our hard and run. I mean, if you're talking to blow it up, are you talking blow it up? We've had our hard and run. So, so what are we going to do? The guy led the league in scoring. We've gotten, we've gotten to the very, you know, precipice of this. We've got to a game seven against the Warriors, whatever. And so we've had a hard and run. I, I, wrote, I wrote this last week that if Houston doesn't figure it out, they're the next team to blow it up. I totally buy that. I mean, James Hardin and the Rockets, you know, a handful more years in their contract. It's not the time yet, though, to detonate what you have here. You don't,

you don't trade an all-time level player who's really at the peak of his career right now. That That would be pure stupidity. But in a year or a year and a half, then you're getting to the point where, you know, the contract is closer and closer to coming up and you're thinking to yourself, well, Hardin and Westbrook can both enter free agency in 2022. The both of them have player options for the 22, 23 season. Westbrook at 46.6 million. Harden at 46.9 million.

We'll see what the cap looks like at that point. But they can be free agents in 22 or 23. getting closer to that point, then if you're Daryl Morey or whoever is in control of the team at that point, that's when you do really have to think about it. But not right now. It's too soon. There's still time here to figure it out. You do wonder if they get what, is there any difference in your mind if, let's say they won two games in a row.

They forced a game seven, right? Is there any difference between that than if they come out in two days and get waxed and they lost four one? And so in terms of the decisions that would be made. And I think we all thought it's a lame duck year for Mike Dantone. And whether he goes and, you know, gets a Pelican's job or whether he ends up somewhere else, who knows what's going to happen with Daryl? Who knows what's going to happen with that goofy owner? I mean, you just don't know.

And it's like everything could be different about that franchise. The goofy owner. Oh, he is goofyered and hell. You see his interviews? Yeah, I know. Shut up and listen. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Yeah, that's the name of his book. You know somebody who names their book, shut up and listen. They're exactly the type who doesn't shut up and listen. Right. He's in charge. And, you know, the Daryl thing's hung out there since last summer. That's for sure. And the Dantone thing is going to come to head.

And so I just wonder, like, does it make any difference now? If they lose to the Lakers, you know, they're going to resign Deutony? They're going to run it back. They're going to try to augment that roster around Harden and Westbrook. Or is everything about the Rockets different if they, no matter what manner they lose in, whether it's the next game or it's two games from now? I mean, it's going to be really interesting to see what happens. happens here. I mean, of course, you know, they play Sunday. Well, assuming they lose, let's just say

they lose, we'll be talking about this again on Tuesday. But I do think it's worth talking about it now, like right after the game, after we're seeing everything when we're feeling what we just witnessed. Hey, their body language in that first half, Kiv, holy macro. I mean, it's a, it's a team that looks like it folded. Because they know that they lose this game. You're going down 3-1. Where is the heart? I know what I mean? And I can't, I can't, I can't, imagine how it affects the guys to lose Daniel House. Not a big name player, not somebody that like you're going to see like on billboards or whatever. He doesn't have a ton of followers on social media. But Daniel House is a really important player for this team. The size he provides,

he can do a little bit off the dribble for you. He's not a total liability. And he can shoot. And to lose that guy when defensive versatility and effort and hustle and heart, which is something that he does bring to the court is lost, I can't imagine what that does to, the personality of a team to the focus of a team, especially when I'm sure some of those guys internally know what really was happening. We don't know yet. There's been multiple reports about he keeps denying it, right? He keeps denying, yes. The report was that there was a person invited into a his hotel room and the NBA was investigating security cameras and there was somebody there who was not supposed to be there.

Yeah, so I read all those Daniel House stories this morning. And so it sounded like the girl said it wasn't Daniel House and then it was Tyson Chandler and somebody else. Like in the interview that she did. And Daniel House is like pleading his innocence. But then the NBA says they have one of the articles said like criminal, was it like criminal evidence that he did part day? And I was like, what in the world?

I was like, there wasn't a crime that took place here, I don't think. Anyways, my only, hey, my only hypothesis from watching all of the detective shows for so many years was, okay, how am I supposed to add this up? Either she's covering for Daniel House. She doesn't know who Daniel House is or, and this would be the most dastardly of all, Daniel House told her he's Tyson Chandler. And so when she was asked about it, she said it was Tyson Chandler. I don't know. It was also strange. Everything about the story was strange.

And it's like, all right. And I know you, look, because we talked about this sometime ago, Kevin. Well, you what do you mean you know me? I'm saying you don't understand how you could be that horny, you know. You just don't get it. Can't you just wait till the series of the Lakers is over? I mean, come on. You're in Disney World, for goodness sake.

I remember a couple of weeks ago. You were mortified at the idea of these guys being so horny. Can you imagine if you're somebody listening to this that hadn't heard that show, that episode? This guy was getting COVID tested. He's like, suck. I mean, Daniel House, this is not exactly how you want to, that is how you want to become a household name, though pun intended, because there aren't a whole lot of people that knew about Daniel House

until this story came out about why Daniel House isn't there and a guy that got in trouble at the bubble. And also, though, I mean, And yeah, you're right. I don't understand how people can't have self-control. That's a different story, different conversation, to have some self-control. Secondly, Sharmes Sharani and his report with the athletic, he had an interesting line in there that popped out to me, hidden in there. Quote, what's more, there is a growing sense among team executives that this is far from an isolated incident.

Oh. And what's interesting about that is last week. Someone texted me that he thinks there's been some shenanigans been going on at Disney. I don't know if they're referring to this. They didn't tell me today when I followed up. But they did say last week to me, similar to what Shams said, that all the rules aren't being followed here by all the players. So if it's just house or other guys, this is something that the NBA got to be careful of. could, you know, I mean, just because there's about to only be four teams left doesn't mean that

this whole thing can't just blow up, you know, because of one guy or one unfortunate incident. I mean, it's, you know, so it's something just to keep in mind that for the league and for the teams, like, got to crack down because we're almost to the finish line here. And this has been really something that we're all going to remember for a lot of reasons for, you know, the fact they accomplished this for the fact that players have used their play. platforms in different ways to send a good message to the world. For the fact we've seen some awesome basketball, this can't get screwed up now. It can't get screwed up now.

That's right. You've got to just practice self-control. I know, hey, I know that after a month down there, mini mouse is starting to look good. But you got to, Minnie Mouse has got to stay in the park. She's got to stay in the park. you think there's an NBA guy that's like a furry and that what they call them those weirdos that are like

attracted to like people wearing costumes I missed your Odell Beckham joke earlier in the week when we recorded because I hadn't seen the news that went over my head I was like what's he talking about but there might be some OBJs in the bubble as well you don't know we need to get very serious here

people people can like what they like teach their own Before we move on, Chris, let's hear a word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Mismatch is brought to you by Heineken. It's time for seasonal beers again, folks. That's right. If you thought a cold, crisp summer Heineken is really something, just wait until you taste the Heineken Fall lineup.

Is it a new product? No. Just the same great tasting logger that's perfect for any season. NFL started last night. We get Game 7 of Celtics Raptors tonight. It's a perfect time to enjoy a Heineken when you're watching. basketball and football from your home. Heineken original logger is made with pure malt and their famous Aease,

which makes Heineken an all-season all-the-time kind of beer. So pick up a pack or get it delivered, whatever your style, and drink responsibly. Today's episode is also brought to you by Square. You might know Square is that little white reader, but Square has a lot more tools that can help your business, especially now that businesses are having to figure out when and how to make things work in this new normal. but businesses are stepping up to the challenge. Weigel whiskey in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania is a family run distillery with tasting rooms,

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Square can also help you switch to taking countless payments in person like Apple Pay. Everything works together and it's all in one place. You just need a Square account to get started. See all the way Square can help your business right now by visiting square.com forward slash go forward slash ringer NBA. Now back to the mismatch. Let's get to a very serious matter. there is a game seven that is going on, Kevin.

And it is between the Boston Celtics and the Toronto Raptors. I could watch these teams play 200 times. No lie. Now, one of them has to win and then go face the Miami Heat in the Easter conference finals. But you had a double overtime game six since we last spoke. Norman Powell, big time hero, not in his ISO possession, but overall, he had 15 of his 23 points in the extra session. including 10 in the second overtime.

And you've got a lot of guys that played a lot of minutes turning around 48 hours after they played this epic game six. And Kyle, to that point, Kyle Lauer played 53 minutes, Siakum, 54, Van Vleet, 51, O'GN and Obie, 50. I mean, these are big, big minute totals for these guys. and you could tell that there were errors made down the stretch that you thought might have been fatigue driven. That being said, big shot after big shot, big play after big play. I wanted to see a game seven, but I'm not, you know, I'm not crazy. Campbell Walker deserved to go to the free throw line with 2.2 second.

The NBA said that today in their two minutes report that he was indeed filed and should have been at the line. Yes. And so he should have been at the line. Who knows? I mean, there's still 2.2 seconds left. We've obviously seen something even stranger than that take place. So I don't know if that would have guaranteed Celtics victory. That being said, he should have gone to the line. That game ended up being great. In the end, you have this very odd situation where the Celtics won the first two games. And the Raptors have won three out of the last four games that these teams have played. And then the one they didn't, it was like decisive Celtic victory. And so now we head into a game seven. What are you thinking heading into Celtics Raptors game seven? I mean, first of all, I mean, that game six, one for the ages, man. One for the ages. I mean, from an entertainment standpoint, from a tactical standpoint with all the wrinkles

and all the different lineups that Nick Nurse put out there with some of the adjustments Brad Stevens made just a really sensational game. Entering game seven, I'll say this. I don't feel like anything has changed for me in terms of the fact that this is sort of what we expected, that this was going to be a tactical masterpiece, you know, with some epic offensive performances and some epic defensive performances. What's changed here? We saw that in game six and we've seen it throughout.

And I will say, I do think Boston is the best. team. Boston's the better team because of the consistency from the scores that they can receive. With that said, though, Kyle Lowry showed what he's capable of as Fred Van Vleet has in other moments. And we haven't yet seen the Pascal Seacom game. He has been really bad because of Boston is putting quicker and strong wing defenders against him. Marcus Smart, Jalen Brown have been awesome against him. And Seacom hasn't been able to get him going. But everybody has their night. that's an X factor that I'm thinking about entering game seven, that we haven't seen it from Siakum yet,

but it doesn't mean that it can't come. Well, and this also, look, game sevens, they can make legacies, you know, so is it Kyle Lowry,

is it Fred Vevelete, is it Jason Tatum, is it Jalen Brown? Is it Kemba Walker, you know, whoever it might be, yeah. Yeah,

and Kemba, who really struggled in the last game because he was being boxing one, the last time he struggled, he turned around. And that's another thing, Like, number one, when do you see box and ones being run? We talked about the chess match that this would be.

And these teams are so well coached and they have such an unbelievable collection of good and smart basketball players that these coaches make these adjustments within the context of the game sometimes. And they can take a time out or they can collect their thoughts and they can say, okay, here's how we're going to attack this. and those players are absolutely able to go out there and execute it. So they see, okay, this OG and Ninobe at the five things giving us a problem. Well, now it's a Tice dunk line. You know, we saw earlier in the series, the Raptors went to his own, really flummoxed the Celtics, and then all of a sudden timeout.

Now they've got Jalen Brown and all these seams, and they're sneaking behind Mark Gassal. And it's like, okay, here's what they're throwing at us. and the team can execute what they're trying to execute defensively. But then the other coach takes a time out, gets his team together and says, okay, here's how we attack this. And the team is able to do it correctly, like on the fly. It's, I mean, that's why I said.

I could watch these teams play 200 times. I love this. Someone tweeted this yesterday after the game, and I forgot who it was. So forgive me. They're talking about the game itself. There will be a winner of this game, but I'm not sure there will be a loser. I think you can say the same about the series in the sense that both of these teams are playing

what is championship level basketball and you know, they may not win a finals either of them could lose in the finals if they make it there but the fact is that these teams have that quality of players this isn't possible with the players here. I mean, we talk a lot about what coaches decide but this is an organizational achievement what the Celtics and Raptors have done

to assemble teams like this that can react to constant changes within a game. Their ability to adapt in Excel is remarkable to watch in terms of their basketball IQ, their effort levels, their focus levels. These guys that are getting minutes on the court and able to do that is really special. And to me, stands out as an example of just the importance of finding just smart basketball players. It's a simple thing, but like it's so easy to get obsessed. with like the knockdown shooter or the athletic dunker or the raw prospect who like,

you know, has the ability to get to the rim whenever he wants but struggles to make decisions. I need guys on my team that can adjust who can adjust in a fly and excel. And almost everybody that we've seen in the Celtics and Raptors rotation can do that and credit to the entire organization and the players for being who they are. It's fun to watch, man. It's special to see this. Well, and I have to wonder if because of the extreme amount of minutes, I mean, these are extreme minutes. You're already played six games, but in the sixth one, it went to double overtime and you had to play 50 something minutes for these guys.

You do wonder if they got to go a little bit deeper. I mean, you'd love to just, in a game seven, it's like throw everything out. But can you, are you even going to want to run these guys out there for the 40 minutes that you know you would be playing all your best players in a game seven? You might be able to turn around and just say, all right, give it, give it to me one more time and then we'll try to get to the Miami series. You know, we've got to lay it all out there. Or, you know, do you have to play a few more guys in this deal? And if you do, that's where the Raptors, I mean, they've got Norma Powell, they've got Abaka, who, had some big games for them.

Once you get to six on the Celtics, it's like Wanamaker, Grant Williams. Like, it's not. Grant Williams has been good to be fair. He's been good. But are you counting on it? Another smart guy, by the way. That's a tough spot to put that kid in, you know? And by the way, what a shocker it was to see Norman Powell get that isolation play

that Nickner has called for him in the closing minutes. It was ridiculous. It was surprising. Maybe, maybe ridiculous. He nurse has done that for Paul. That was stupid. Powell has done that over the course of the season for the Toronto Raptors, but I mean, in that moment, I'm with you. Like, why?

What are we doing here? That was, that felt like one moment where Nurse overthought a little bit. He's also, he's also like maybe third on my ISO list on his team. Like if I'm saying, okay, clear out and now it's like. Van Lee, Lari, that's the guys you want to see first. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I can watch. a couple of Seaccom spin moves if you want me to.

I mean, Boston's got a great job stripping the ball from him on those strips. They know what's coming. Yeah, they know what's coming. I think this is going to go down to the very end. And I think there's more guys I trust to make the big plays on Toronto. That's what I think.

Again, this is pick them to me. What's the line? I think it's lines like two. So, I mean, this is supposed to go down to the end. And you got some guys that, I mean, I just, when they have needed it, God, Ananobe's hit probably the two biggest threes of the series.

These guys have ice water legit in their, I mean, these are monster shots of Norman Powell and O'anobie. Kyle Lowry's fade away with a hand in his face. I mean, and it's like, okay, like Tatum is that dude. He is that dude for Boston, but there ain't three of him. And I kind of feel like there's four guys that can make and take those big shots for Toronto, where I kind of feel like Tatum's going to be the guy that makes it take it. Let's not underrate Kemba though. Kemba really struggled in that game, five points, two of 11. And he did have one big, big bucket.

Yes, he did. And the way in which they defended him, I mean, he wasn't able to have a great game. But Kemba's had good performances in the series two. Boston may not have three, but they have two. with Tatum and Kemba and then other guys occasionally do step up and have big nights. Marcus Smart can hit clutch shots. Jaylon Brown can make plays. They do have other guys that can do that for you.

So they may not be at the level of Toronto, but it's close. It's close. And I would take Boston's guys, especially because of Tatum, even though Tatum in that game, you know, had some key turnovers down the stretch. He had the pass where he's through the ball to Nick Nurse, who was standing in the corner for some odd reason. and he had another bad turnover too. But overall, with Tatum, he hasn't had the best scoring numbers,

but I'm really blown away by his overall progress as a playmaker. He's making some cross-court passes as if he just downloaded it into his brain. And he can suddenly do it all the time. And it's his brand new, fun, new toy he's playing with, and he does it at a high level. And some of the passes he makes are just not only unselfish. I don't think he was ever a selfish player at Duke. he was always a willing passer, but the ability is there and his vision is, is there now.

And it's just really cool to see a guy respond to defensive pressure by making positive plays when early this season and last season when he got pressured, there were times he would end up making a sloppy play. So I mean, kudos to him for that improvement. And that's huge for Boston when you look at them now and in the coming years. Well, and Kevin, this is, this year is a different deal for him because of that explosion that he had post-all Star break, he's looked at as that dude. You know, teams look at him and deal with him differently, and he's still delivering. He's averaging. Look at the numbers. This guy is still putting up. And it's a

different deal. Once you elevate to, okay, you command our attention now. When you still can deliver, that's when you know this is big time star material stuff. Sure. Definitely. I mean, when I wrote the feature article about him in early March, like I remember at that time, he was starting to get double teamed more often. And I put that in the article like, oh, this is the next step for this game. And it's like, oh, geez, just a handful of months later, you know, once the game starts that right back up. I think that article posted like on March 6th, a week, less than a week before the shutdown, you know, six months later, he already has answered that question with that skill. he has already improved that.

It's really, really impressive. Well, and you feel like, I don't know who's going to end up by Lean Toronto just because of what I said, but honestly, these teams could, if they played 20 times, I think it could be 10 to 10 with them just making different adjustments

every game, being able to execute and we look up and they play 20 games against each other and one team's won 10 of them and the other team is one 10 of them. They're perfectly evenly matched, you know, and I'll be fascinated to see, who is if you are a heat fan who do you want to win that game toronto interesting you've had

struggles against boston during the season if you're in miami you're thinking to yourself this is a bit tougher of a matchup for us and let me just say this i want to hedge a little bit here they didn't have j crowder and and andre wadala in all of those games and that those guys are major difference makers that from Miami, we only saw them once against Boston with them, and that was during the seating game, Miami 1, 112 to 106, but during the season they got smoked twice. So you do have that one good game in the seating games, but it's looking at the two games during the regular season.

If I'm Miami, I'd probably rather Toronto, but either way, these are both going to be tough matchups. And for what it's worth, Miami is 2 in 1 versus Toronto, 2 and 0 during the season, then they lost their game by four points in the season. succeeding games. Yeah. So either one, I mean, they're probably all three. They're both tough. Yeah. I mean, like, it's a long way of saying both are tough, but you know. Yeah, there's not, there's not one that you greatly prefer over the other. No, I mean, it's the type of thing where you're

probably don't want to choose, you know what I mean? You don't want to choose the opponent here. You don't want to hope for one. You probably just want to let go. At least that's what I would try to do if I were in their position. I'd just be like, I'm not going to hope for anything here. just however it works out is, you know, prepare for that team. And to, and Miami's get, you know, look, because they made quick work of Milwaukee, they're going to be well rested. And whoever comes out of this is going to be playing an inordinate amount of minutes. Oh, yeah.

50 plus on this last one. Yeah. And one, and it's game seven. This ain't a time that anybody cuts your minutes. You know what I mean? You're going to run back out there and do it again. and then you're going to have to turn around to start the Easter conference finals against a Miami team that had their feet kicked up for a couple of days.

That's no picnic. I know. I know. I mean, all you can hope for is it's the, you know, Miami is the type of team where it hurts them to have time off. Some teams it makes no difference.

Some teams it does. Some players it does. Some it doesn't. You just hope Miami it affects them. Given the events of earlier this evening with the Lakers winning in the fashion that they did and going up three to one. It looks like we could get to the Western finals rather quickly. I don't know if both of them will go ahead and dispose of their opponents,

but they're both in, and we said at the very beginning of this, anything outside of the Lakers, Clippers would surprise us. Well, now they're one game away. So it is a matter of time before they move on in these series. I think we both feel that way. and now it does get almost into a rest thing too, right? So do the Lakers just go ahead and take care of business and eliminate Houston? I think that's a little bit harder for them maybe than it would be for the Clippers to beat the Nuggets.

The Clippers have found something. They found something defensively. I mean, I think the Nuggets could just never really get it going. I think they shot 39% in this last game. And that game, I got to tell you. that Toronto Boston game. I mean, that was like edge of my seat. Go grab my son and we're watching the last, you know,

45 minutes together of that game. And I'm still like coming down from that when that, and you know, they flipped straight to that other game. That Clippers Nuggets game just sucked. And it made it so much worse because it was right after that Raptor. I'm like, this is terrible. Compared to what I just watched, it was like watching some kind of like epic, amazing movie. And then you flip on the TV and there's a, you know, crappy movie on or something.

It's like, oh, this is boring. I watched Clippers Nuggets the following morning so I didn't see that sadness live. But I'm kind of glad I got to skip through all the commercials and, you know, certain free throw moments and all that. And you said at the beginning of this, you said they got nobody for Kauai. I mean, look, he had 31, 11, 9 assists, 4 steals, and he is quietly, as he does everything, averaging 29 points of game in these playoffs so far.

I mean, again, he is like Jordan-esque for a second year in a row on a different team, playing different opponents. You know, it's like, I know he's not Mr. charisma or anything, but just that when you go and look at his numbers and his efficiency, there is, I mean, there's very little argument that he's the best guy going in the NBA, and it's two years running when it's come playoff time. And that's one thing. I'm glad you're saying that because when we talk about, you know, the best players,

so often, you know, we cite regular season statistics. It's a natural thing to do. Oh, we average X amount of points this year or 12 assists or whatever it might be. do you feel like when it comes to those conversations, playoff performance is not weighed enough. And I say that, you know, especially about Kauai because Kauai becomes like an top five level player all time in the postseason.

He's not that during the duration of the year. He's not. He's a great player during the regular season, but he becomes a legend in the playoffs. How much should that be? weighed against, you know, the guys who also do it for 70 plus games every year, sometimes all 82. Well, allow me to warn you that if we do, I, I know where you're going to take it is James

Harden, right? I obviously think much more highly of players that can deliver for me in the playoffs and that can even raise their level of play. Let me give you another one. That guy that we're going to see in the Easter conference finals for Miami, Jimmy Butler's not racking off 15.4th quarters and, you know, in everybody's face in some Tuesday night in Charlotte. You know what I mean? But when it comes game time and when the stakes get the highest and the lights get the brightest, like I want that guy. Like, I feel like he's there for it and he is

raising his level play. Kyle Lowry too. We just saw it the other night. When do you watch a Kyle Lowry scored 30-something points? Lowry was a guy people used to say can't win in the playoffs. That's right. he was a guy that people said that about right or wrong i mean clearly it was wrong at this point but at the time that was the the conversation about him that's right well he was also playing alongside demar de rosen yeah i'm with you no i'm with you i always felt caro larry sorry i always felt lorry was a winning player and in der rosen in that situation and uh is not he was just not yeah Here's what I know. I know that there are guys that do turn up.

But Kauai, look, the guy sits out every other game, it feels like. So, I mean, if you're counting on him, it's interesting. If we, I would tell you, if we drafted for the regular season versus drafting for the playoffs, it is a different list. It is. It is. Hardin Falls. uh,

Yonis falls. He has to. He has to fall. He does. A lot of these guys that we consider LeBron goes up. Kawhi goes up. I mean,

LeBron might be one already on your list. That's right. He may not be able to move up. He's one on my list. But, you know, he moves up if he's not. That's right. LeBron, Kaui.

Lowry moves up. Butler moves up. Uh, you know, Tatum now. Like, I mean, he's delivering. You know what I'm saying?

And then there are, there are players that are on these teams that, Look, Donovan Mitchell was better in the playoffs than he was during the regular season. Jamal Murray's been better in the playoffs than he was during the regular season. Jamal Murray average 18 points a game in the regular season. Like I do like guys that can take it to another level when the games matter more. I mean, that means a great deal to me. And yeah, I mean, Kauai, nobody sits around talking about it.

He's the best player in the NBA until it gets to playoff time. During the regular season, no one says Kauai, Leonard's the best. He's never even, like, was he even in the MVP, like voting? Seriously, this year. I don't believe, did he finish top five? I don't believe he did. Did he get a vote? No, we don't know yet about the. Oh, we don't.

Oh, we don't know on MVP. So we know the MVP finalists. We know it's Janice Hardin or LeBron. We don't know four and five. So we just don't know yet. Okay. All right. So maybe this week, I don't know when we're supposed to buy an MVP.

No, Anthony Davis is going to be on there. That's another. Luca will be too. And Luca will be too. So yeah, Kauai won't even. It could. It could be 80 or Kauai. Either one could make it.

But a lot of guys are going to get votes for that. You know, I think you're going to see some dame votes, maybe some Chris Paul votes. You're going to see other guys mixed in there. All I'm saying is nobody made the case for Kauai being the MVP. No, nobody. Of course not. Yep. You know what I mean?

And rightfully so. And he might be the best player of the league. Exactly. And I mean, it's just interesting to think about, though, because, you know, you mentioned certain guys would drop. then it comes up like how much do you waste situation we just talked about how Hardin does need to change himself but also the system around him does need to evolve too like what happens if you put Hardin in the ideal situation that we're talking about for his talents off ball and on ball

to be spotlighted in the way they can be and should be then does he go back up the list like Lowry Lowry goes up the list when he's without Der Rosen you know what I mean it's like it's so complicated there's so many variables at play. Flip those guys. Who we flipping? Kawhi and Hardin. Whose team's better then? I mean, I'd pick Kauai anywhere, really. But I mean, you're talking about it as Paul George on his side too, though. Yeah. I mean, what situation do you want to make? Kauai is in a very good situation. And they're deep, too. He's alongside another big star. Oh, Hardin would be better with the Clippers. Overall, as a player, yes, because he would be able to play off ball more often. But

I don't know if the Clippers would be better. No, because Kauai Leonard's a better player. but ultimately harder would be better too. All right. One other thing on the Clippers Nuggets, and that is these Michael Porter Jr. comments after the game, which drew the ire of many NBA players, Damien Lillard and others I saw on Twitter,

taking umbrage to this. For those that don't know, Michael Porter, Jr. went to the podium after the game, and he was asked about the game, and he expressed his frustration. about his coach, Coach Malone, and saying that the nuggets were too predictable. Everybody knows what's coming.

Jamal and Yokic are great players, but we need a little more variation. And, you know, I don't know how you feel about this, Kev, but I will tell you that my initial reaction is there sometimes where we kill the messenger and it is, instead of dealing with the message, right? So somebody may say something, and because we like that person, we don't take great issue to it. But if it was somebody we didn't like that said the same exact thing, we might say,

ah, that's ridiculous, right? And rather than just talk about what they are talking about. And his message is not ridiculous. It is, it is, it's not a ridiculous message. It is also one that cannot be at a podium when you are a rookie. therefore the killing of the messenger is deserved to me because like who are you? You know what I mean? Like who are you?

What have you done? And this is not, you don't see this with players. You don't think all kinds of players have problems with the way their team is run or with their coach or whatever. They don't go to the media and tell them, yeah, I'm going to have to talk to them about that. You know, like, what are we talking about? And I, this may be an overreaction just because it happened last night.

I saw it today. That is the kind of stuff that gets you shipped out. I'm serious. I've seen this before where a guy, where a guy's not happy, guy's not happy, he makes it clear he's not happy, and he ends up somewhere else. And sometimes you end up getting value and sometimes you don't. Because that ain't going to play in that locker.

room. And if he's already pissed with accomplishing jack squat in the NBA so far, you know, what happens when they run it back next year at Jamal Murray and Nicola Yokin are the best players on that team, right? And he's not, he's not getting, you know, the shot attempts he wants or he's not doing being used how he thinks he should be used. It's just all crazy to me. You know, I think you nailed it. 100% nailed it. Your first point about how oftentimes we shoot the messenger, you know, instead of hearing the message,

he brings up some fairer points. You know, maybe spreading the ball around could be helpful in endgame situations. However, you're also right about the other point that if you're Michael Porter, don't do this. Like, what are you doing, man? Could you imagine Jason Tatum doing that tonight?

Could you imagine? I mean, that would be crazy. It would be crazy. I can't imagine it. Guys don't do this. But, but like, it's not, it's not a Jason Tatum. Tatum is far more accomplished. Of course.

Than Michael Porter, Jr. But I can't imagine it from Tatum. I can't imagine it from Jalen Brown. I can't imagine it from Grant Williams off the Celtics bench. Michael Porter, it's the ego. He needs to at this point. He's still a young guy who thinks he is capable of more. He's hungry.

And I appreciate that. He is hungry and he feels like he can offer more to contribute to winning. But it's also ego that can get in your way and hurt you in your career and in your life. And this is a situation where I hope, I hope Michael Porter Jr. has people around him that can be like, dude, for real and not, you know, rooting him on saying like, yeah, you're right. Like you should always get the ball. What are they giving it to Yokage for? What are they doing it to, giving it to Murray for?

He's so inconsistent. This is a point where it is so important. important that you have that to keep you down and keep you grounded. And for the nuggets, you're not going to give him Michael Porter. He's a very important piece of what they hope to become. But you better hope that he comes back next season as somebody who will never spill something like this to the media, because that is a sign of everything you just said and a sign of ego as well. This needs a change for him to maximize what he can become individually. And it age the change for whatever team he ends up playing for in his career to be what they can be

because he's got real talent but the mental aspect is critically important. Well, when you talk about the ego thing though, and this is why teams discard guys like this is because they sit there and they watch that. And I will tell you my reaction when I watch this go, that, that's, that dude is about him. That dude is about it. That's not about they didn't win this game. That's about they didn't win this game because they didn't give me the ball. Yeah, that's the way it felt.

They didn't get, we didn't win this game because they didn't give me the ball. It's not what we can do better as a collective. That's how it sounds. When he says it, it sounds like we didn't win because they didn't give me the ball. And I need to talk to the coach about me getting the ball. And maybe my dad needs to talk to the coach about me getting the ball. And it's like, bro, it's a team sport. You're in the playoffs.

It's your first run. If you care so greatly, like, do you feel like Michael Porter, does it look like he's dying inside because his team lost? Or is he dying inside because he didn't put up 30 points in the game? And it comes off like he's the type of guy that's dying inside because he didn't put up 30 points in the game. Because look, if you're so, if you're so interested in winning, how about to guard somebody for once ever? Yeah. How about that? How about to guard somebody?

There's a really good tweet today. from John Hollinger of the athletic. Yeah. He tweeted out in response to the video, how do I put this gently? Medical was by far the main reason he fell in the draft. It might not have been the only reason. Hmm.

Interesting. It's everything we just said. The brothers are grizzly. I hope he's a good dude. Jonté Porter's a good and selfish player. Yeah. You're going to like Jontay Porter as long as he's able to get on the court and get healthy. That's just how it came off, man.

It came off like we didn't win. because I didn't get the ball. Not because our offense needs to be. Our offense doesn't need to be different and getting more people involved. That was all turned back to him. It was about him. And it's like, this is a team sport

and you're in the middle of the playoffs, my man. And you're playing against the frigging clippers. You know what I mean? You don't think Mike Malone's doing everything he can to try to, you know. You think Mike Malone needs frigging Michael Porter who's got 20 games under his belt in his life. telling him how he needs to be coaching.

Like, man, shut up. And I'll just add this, though, is one last point with Michael Porter. Again, a young guy in his rookie year, 22 years old, I'm not going to hold this against him. It's just something to keep in mind for what we see from his development on and off the court. It doesn't play defense, doesn't pass the ball. Maybe if he starts doing those things, it'll show that things are changing there. I do hold it against him. He's going to have to win me back.

He's got to win us all back. Before we get out of here tonight, I've got to ask you something. So we end this show on Tuesday. And I said, Kev, it's just a matter of time before the bucks are done. And then we're going to have to live in this. Where's Yonis going to go? Where's he going to go? World.

And I'll be damned. The next, it might have been that afternoon. Was it Tuesday afternoon or was a Wednesday morning? Kevin O'Connor from the Ringer reports. Clippers are interested and I said, say it ain't so. We're starting this already. Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's funny. I was up to, I was up early writing that to get in an ahead of time as things got pushed back. But, yeah, with that story, I mean,

all I was really saying is that the clippers are a team that multiple sources have told me, plans to make it run a Janus. Doesn't mean they're going to get them. It really doesn't mean anything because all 30 teams are going to try for Janus. But the clippers are just interesting that they are thinking big about they're still trying to think about adding other guys. That to me was the insight there that I found in that.

They're like, oh, they're not being complacent here with just Kauai and Paul George. They want more. I mean, that's the way I took that report. Just the fact that team is thinking about it, that's what. Yeah, and look, Janice has come out of these, I'm, I don't see a wall. What do you say? Some guys see a wall and they, they avoid it. Some run through it.

I'm running through the wall, right? Build around me. And I do think, I do think he might be cut from a different cloth from some others that have tried to go elsewhere in order to win. I do think he takes pride. He's Dirk. He's Tim Duncan. That's what you're saying, right?

Yeah. Yeah, it takes pride in the, you know, I'm. I'm a loyal guy. Milwaukee is where I, you know, have grown up. A lot of these guys. And the other thing is, this is true too. And I know that. So LeBron's situation was always different because he was, that was home, right? And he didn't go off to college. And so he was always at home when he was playing in the NBA. And going to Miami was like the first time he ever went anywhere. Like that was, he got to. drafted by his hometown team right down the street from where he's lived his whole life. And so going out and, you know, sewing your wild oats or whatever he was doing. You know, that is part of, I've always thought that that was part of why he had wanted to go elsewhere besides just winning, you know, just like, bro, am I just going to live and die here my whole life?

Like, I want to go live and do things. And so I think that was part of it. but I will tell you as someone who just experienced this with Mike Conley, that it is very different when these guys come into the league at 18, 19 years old, and then they're there through their first couple of contracts. And Janus is actually following this trajectory too, because you come in and you don't even know what's going on and it's your first job and you've got all this responsibility, whatever.

And then you grow up and then you got a girlfriend and then you get engaged and then you get married. and then you have kids and like all of this stuff takes place in this city right and you end up it's just such massively formidable moments throughout your life that have taken place and I do think that it does create a bond that is a little bit different now for guys that aren't you know like that aren't married don't have kids don't like haven't done the whole growing up thing, like through their 20s and 30s. There are some guys that just stay single.

And then their career is the most important thing. But once you have a family, your career is just not the most important thing. It can't be, you know, I mean, because you wake up every day. I don't wake up every day worrying about my job in the same way. I'm worried about like what's happening with my children, right? That's a number one thing. And so I do think that it changes guys. And so that's why I'm more apt to believe when guys, you know, pledge their loyalty or say I want to be here.

It's because, you know, there's bigger things to me. You know what I mean? Like I want to win here and I want to do this and I love it here. And I want to try to win here. But it's not the most important thing in my life. I'm not only fulfilled if I win that. And I do think for a lot of guys, you know, that's what's going to. fulfill them.

And if we've learned anything, Kevin Durant still ain't happy. I don't mean? That didn't fix it. Yeah. You know what I mean? He still wonders why he doesn't get the credit he deserved, that people are poking holes in it.

And look, the same thing, Davis isn't out there as much. Same thing will happen to Davis if they win it. It will. Oh, yeah, you latch down with LeBronce. You won, you know, I mean, like,

and you just got to be able to. Katie, though. Katie, a little bit different. for him. Of course it is. 73 win team that just beat him in the West of Carverett's finals. I'm with you. I'm just saying that for some guys, it's not necessarily. Of course.

I mean, sometimes you reach the mountain top and you realize there's still more. There's still more to accomplish and you never feel fulfillment, which, you know, then you really need to invest in loving that pursuit, you know, and enjoying that, knowing that the end is just something else, something else, something else. and that's what it is for a lot of these guys too and a lot of people period the other thing is you read the article and they can offer him five years 250 million dollars can you imagine i was thinking about this when i wrote the article like originally i had a section in there that was cut because it was too rambly just basically can you imagine like being offered one quarter of one billion dollars for five years and saying i'm going to wait a year to maybe sign this contract if it's still on the table you know you're banking on no major injury, you know, nothing catastrophic over one year to sign for one quarter of $1 billion. I sure as hell cannot imagine myself saying no to that.

Even if I already had $50 plus million in the bank like Janus does, I can't see myself saying no to that, especially with all the family reasons that you're talking about, though. There's just, and the fact you still have a 60 plus caliber win team around you. The bucks, let's not act like this is some garbage 09 cab squad around LeBron. They have talent on the team. This is a good team. If you're honest, it's like maybe I should just sign this and get generations of wealth and security from my family.

That's fair. I'm a bad person to ask, though, because I, you know, once the ringer and Spotify came to me about the Warren Sharp stuff, I literally just went through this. They offered me $250 million. And I was like, can we revisit it in a year? You know? can we revisit it in the year? And they said no. They said we can't.

It's take it or leave it. And I said, oh, well, this will be generational wealth for my family. For doing one extra podcast a week with Warren Sharp. Good deal, Chris. Are you feeling like you need to renegotiate? Oh, geez. I hope this also seller cap money left after that. Hey, who knows, maybe by the next time we talk,

we'll already have all of our finals set. We are certainly going to be talking about the Easter conference finals by the next time. But we'll see what happens with the Lakers and how long they take to dispose of the rockets and the clippers and how long they take to dispose of the nuggets before we finally get to a Western conference finals. But I got to be honest with you. Like, we thought that the, the, The semis were going to be amazing. They've been amazing.

And it's going to set up a great West and East finals, no matter. It's going to be awesome. I mean, this has been so freaking fun to watch this postseason. It really has. And it's going to get better too next round. That's for sure. I'm so pumped and jacked, dude. It's great.

Pumpton jack. Pumped and jacked, man. It's so good. Thank you to Sasha. She, she's made it through episode two, Kevin, without getting rid of us. At least we got two episodes. We got a second date.

Thank you, Sasha. We got more dates than Daniel House. One and then he was done. You might get kicked out of the bubble for it. All right. Kevin, I'll talk to you next Tuesday. I can't wait, man.