The Ringer NBA Show - Rondo's Injury, the Bucks' Blowout, and Westbrook With Chris Mannix and Rodger Sherman (Ep. 101)

Episode Date: April 21, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon is joined by Chris Mannix of The Vertical to discuss Rajon Rondo's injury (01:00), an epic comeback by LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavs (11:00), the Raptors' loss in Milwaukee (19:30), and the Grizzlies striking back in Memphis (26:00). Then, Ringer staff writer Rodger Sherman joins the show to analyze Russell Westbrook's performance in Game 2 (39:00) and the importance of Game 3 (46:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varned. Joining me today from Yahoo's The Vertical is a surly Chris Mannix. Right as we are recording this, we have just found out that Ray John Rondo is out indefinitely. Manix was up all night writing 1,500 words about Ray John Rondo that will they see the light of day, Manix? Well, maybe he'll be back at some point during the... And I've had that happen before. You run the wrist sometimes. Guys getting hurt.

I remember Dwight Howard once I had a piece on that never ran because of injury, a few other players. Let me do the positive spin. We can do the Manix lost articles, and you can have the one about Dwight Howard and the one about Ray John Rondo. Just keep them. And then years down the road, you can release them. Yeah, you just got to, like, repurpose them at some point down the line, which is fine. Like, they'll all get out. I mean, it's the price you pay sometimes in covering sports.

Stuff like this happened. But it's the first time as, like, you know, the different publishing before. This is clearly monstrous news, Chris. Does it change? Do you think the Rondo injury now changes the course of that series completely? Well, you know, watching, and I was at the first two games in Boston, he's a motivated player.

I mean, he relishes this than he would against anybody else. However, they're going to roll out there on the glass. Rondo wasn't shooting a lot of three points in the first two games, and those are going to be consistent. If they can keep doing what they've been doing on the glass, they're going to have success once again. Well, it's always what is the drop-off to the next guy,

and that's where it could hurt the most, right? Because regardless of Rondo's performance, which he has been extremely good in the first two games, it's like, okay, what now? And I suppose they'll roll with, what, Carter Williams? It's the only choice. I mean, Jerry and Grant, I think we'll probably get the start early on. But remember, they put Rajan and Rondo back in the lineup in the March range

because those point cards weren't very effective. And they wanted to push the pad. Rondo's had a great series, but he's had a very good last month and a half with his team. I mean, he has been a big part of why they've been playing more up-tempo. He's been as facilitating like he had in Boston. He's been good, and I don't know that Grant, so it's a lot. It's a body blow for this team. We'll see if they can slow this game down to a grind,

and we'll see if Isaiah Thomas can take advantage of it. I mean, Rod is not an elite defender anymore. I can give you during the game. So it definitely changed the dynamic of the series, and it's interesting loss for them happening so soon. And you wonder how much Hoyberg will go with either of them, and maybe just end up with Dwayne Wade or one of the others just to handling the ball because in that last game, which was the big win for Chicago in game two,

I mean, Grant played six minutes and the very, very elusive. And shout out to Mark Titus, the very elusive six trillion, six minutes, literally not one stat. And a minus 14 in the six minutes. Michael Carter Williams played four minutes in the game. So those guys were not contributing at all in game number two. And in fact, well, I guess negatively contributing. So, I mean, you're moving to something radically different than what you've had going in the first couple of games after the Bulls.

Yeah, they hybrid lineup to court together, try to go big against Boston publicly. He wants to guard. So it does make things interesting, Chris, in the sense that for two games. And again, they still have the same problem. on the glass that they had with or without Rajan Rondo, but it does give them maybe a jolt of confidence going into this game three. Also, massive Isaiah Thomas relief, wouldn't you agree?

Because Thomas has been having to, you know, it's obviously been a problem. But if you're not, I guess if you're Hoyberg, I really don't know what he's going to end up doing. But, you know, Isaiah Thomas, you know, has hurt the Celtics defensively. maybe he gets a little bit of a break now, you know? Yeah, yeah, out of the series. But when the rubbermith hit the road there in the fourth quarter was Jimmy Butler and his physical play that that was really was a problem for Thomas. They like to gang up on Isaiah.

No, no, no, no, I mean on the defense event, I mean on the defense event where Thomas has had to. Oh, I mean, yeah, yeah, I mean, sure. Yeah, I think that's a part of it. You know, Rondo was great in transition. I mean, he was killing them there. You know, every time that there was a long rebound and we saw the first two games, bills were killing them on the glass. Rondo would get out, and that's where he created a lot of his assist.

He had 14 assist in game two, and a lot of that came out of transition opportunities. That's something that I'm not sure they grant or Carter Williams can fill the void there. And yeah, I guess in that sense, it gives Boston and Isaiah a little bit of a break. All right. Setting aside the Rondo injury, what does Boston have to do to change this series anyway? Well, I mean, it's not as simple as, okay, let's rebound. This is why people in Boston or playing Miami because of the physicality, even Detroit, if they had gotten in size, those teams could offer.

It's why you saw toward the end of the selfish regular season. Brad Stevens did a lot more experimenting than he might have with Tyler Zeller, with big lineups. And he was successful. Personnel isn't necessarily there. But I think Boston has to really supersized their lineup. if they're going to find ways to get back into the gate and hoping he can mitigate the Robin Lopez factor.

If he can't, Chris, they've got to try something radically different. I mean, maybe they go super small. I mean, we saw in the second quarter of the game in game two, when they went with that super small lineup, when they went with Terry Rozier on the floor, Marcus Smart playing on the floor, a lineup that they've gone with at various times during the regular season, it was effective.

The energy they got from those guys really gave them a boost. If Tyler Zeller turns out to be ineffective, and Amir Johnson continues to be. We know with that Brooklyn pick they're going to have a chance of getting a very high draft pick. Many of the best players in the draft, or at least the handful, are point guards. And I talked to you earlier this year about the whole Isaiah Thomas situation. Do you think if they were to get bounced in this first round, do you think that this series, do you think Isaiah Thomas's possible extension is dependent upon their success or failure in this series? I think there's, I think it's possible.

You know, Boston likes Isaiah, but Boston also knows that their future is very cloudy. And it's cloudy in a good way. I mean, they're a team that could have that, it could create some decisions they have to make. They're Indiana, they bow out in four games and that extension. We explore trading him. at the end of the year. And Boston was in the bidding for George at the trade deadline. It will be in the bidding again come this summer.

So there's just, there's a lot of stuff up in the air for Boston. But no question, if they bow out like this and Isaiah can't leave them to, you know, pass a NACC Bulls team in this series, that will reflect, I think, on him in the mind of Danny H. Did anybody even know that Rondo was injured? No. I mean, I'd let, you know, again, these details are sketchy. And I'd like to know exactly when it happened. Did it happen in a game a couple of days off?

We don't know exactly when this injury came about. But like we said, it's a blow. It's a blow for the Bulls. Yeah, because it's different. I mean, usually if it happens during the course of a game, during a course of a game. I say, what's so, Chris, like he's the kind of guy. Remember, when he tore his ACL, he played the entire game through it. You remember that Atlanta game, you know, three or four years ago, he was,

he thought he pulled a hamstring, and he played like, I think it was actually 20, 25 minutes that game with a torn ACL and didn't realize he had a torn ACL, I think until like warm-ups of the next game. So he's a different kind of cat there that he feels a certain amount of pain, but maybe doesn't describe it properly or feel the need to tell his team about it until it's really bothering it. He said he did. It says I'm reading the report here from the Bulls. It says he did it in the game. Huh. Yeah. Obviously that went.

He just plays through stuff. He plays through all of it. And it took a couple of days, I guess, for them to figure out that it was broken. All right. Let's get to what happened last night. Cleveland was down, 74 to 49 at halftime. 25 is the most any team has come away. If the halftime deficit was 25, that's the most any team has come back from in the playoffs ever.

And just this historic LeBron. game once again 41 13 and 12 for him Indiana if they were going to get one it looked like that was the one I mean that totally looked like the Cleveland's up to oh you know their their backs are you know they're they're resting easy and they just don't give a crap about this game so I was rather impressed that they came out so furiously in the second half last night and went ahead and won that game because it looked like that was just a whatever to them. And they cranked it up in that second half in Indiana. That is just a miserable loss, Mannix.

Yeah. You know, from the Cavaliers' perspective, evidence that philosophy when it comes to them offensively, it's actually accurate. I mean, this is a team that at any point in time can just decide they want to score 20, 25 points in a short period of time and do it. I mean, the weapons they have there, you get them in the half court, and they've got two guys in LeBronicourt as anybody in basketball. Throwing Kevin Love's shot making.

You know, this should not be surprising that they can do this, and I think they will be able to do this against anybody in the Eastern Conference playoff field. The problem that continues to be, you know, they dig these holes, and their defense is just wholly unreliable. And it's great that they can do this in the first-round series, and, you know, it makes for a good storyline against Indiana. But nothing I've seen, Chris, during this series.

makes me believe that this Cavalier team see deep into the playoffs. I mean, there's a reason they're the 21st ranked defense in the NBA. They get gashed on a consistent basis, and they're getting gashed by an Indiana team that is so unimaginative offensively. I mean, even though late-game situations happen out there. And if they're getting beat by this pacer team, what's going to happen in the second round against Toronto or Milwaukee? What's going to happen in a conference finals?

And sure is hell what's going to happen in, an NBA finals against the Golden State Warriors. I mean, it's fun and it's great highlights, and it's fun to talk about. But these defensive problems I keep seeing are very real and are very problematic for Tyrone Liu. And it feels like somebody that would be high-octane and have a little toughness on the inside would give them the biggest problem. It feels to me just through the first couple of games of these playoffs that if I was picking an opponent to attempt to knock off Cleveland, Washington would be the one so far.

Yeah, I think that's fair. Because you are going to have to score with them. Right. I would caution, though, about giving up yet on Toronto. I mean, they looked awful last night. I mean, you're watching that game, and you're thinking that they might be a house cleaning in Toronto at the end of the season. But the series, as recently as last year, if they get through Milwaukee, you find a way, that's an interesting matchup. because Toronto can defenders the one in the fourth and the four slash five with Abacca.

That's a team that I'm telling you. Even as bad as they look against Milwaukee, I don't think they'd look at a sense than they are right now from Milwaukee. Milwaukee's just an impossible matchup for everybody. Let me get back to that one in a second. One more thing on Paul George, because you had mentioned him previously in that teams will be trying to go after him and offer him trades. I do wonder if last night's, you know, you hate to deal in some. such hyperbole, but honestly, if they take care of business last night, right, and you're Paul George, you're going, all right, they're up to one in this series, okay? Or actually,

no, I'm sorry, they're down to one, but if you're Paul George, you're going, if I took that last shot in game one, we're up to one. We're not that far off, right? Whereas last night, if you're driving away from that arena, you're like, F this, you know? Right. Like, I mean, it's, it's, It's seriously that final line because I do think you would feel that way if you're George, right? Like we should be up to one. And so this team is not that far off from being able to compete with the best of the best. But then after you blow something like that last night, you would just have no confidence for the present or the future. I wouldn't think.

No. And he's kind of sounding like a guy. that is building excuses for a breakup. I mean, he's been remarkably critical of his own teammates in this series, from Miles Turner to CJ Miles to Lance Stevenson. It doesn't seem like anybody is outside of his shotgun range, if you will. That was interesting to me. Just hearing him constantly talk about his teammates and what they needed to do more,

spark-of-fire, but sizing everybody around. That was my kind of takeaway. If you're Paul George, and it's a lot of money to say no-to-esque injury. And the Pacers, Larry Byrds are very clear. He's going to make that five-year or four-year max-level extension, whatever it is, to Paul George at the end of the year. But Paul's been pretty consistent in other interviews when I've talked to him. His decision on Indiana, he's always said, it's based on his belief about their ability to build. He said if he thinks there's the piece in place to build a sustainable, you can go into this off-season.

is on that path. They certainly have some good pieces, Miles Turner being cheap among them, but is there any part of you that looks at the Pacers and sees them on the same level of a young team as Milwaukee, as Boston, as some of these other teams that are poised to become the heirs to... I just don't see it right now. Indiana, to me, is still a middle-of-the-pack type of team

that is going to need something else significant to happen for them to be a contender with Paul George. It would be totally dependent upon your opinion. on Miles Turner? And do you think he can end up being a big star or not? Because that would be the right. Like, I mean, if you think, if you think, and if Paul George thinks for that matter, the Miles Turner that we're going to look up in a couple of years and Turner is a big star in the NBA,

then at least you feel like, all right, I've got that guy, I've got another piece with me. But again, I know there are extremely differing opinions on Miles Turner, whether he's going to be a really good. player or if he's a guy that could make all-star teams? Yeah, I put him in the category of really good to kind of look at there. But again, you know, when Miles Turner kind of reaches that potential, the rest of the roster might need some overhauling. I mean, Jeff Teague, I mean, how many years does he have left playing at a high level? You know, the power forward position.

You know, they got a toll from Lance Stevenson, but how reliable can he be in the future? I mean, this team is, even with a living up to his potential Miles Turner, there's several pieces away from being a real contender. And for Paul George to believe that they're going to become one would have to put a lot of faith in Larry Bird, his ability to draft high-level players, and, you know, frankly, his ability to lure some free agents to Indiana. Let's get to that Milwaukee Raptors game. Milwaukee stomp the Raptors last night. just an unbelievable score to see flash up on the board, 104 to 77. And it feels like in all of these games, we are talking about some kind of NBA history happening, whether it was Russell Westbrook and the 51 point triple double the other night,

or it was Cleveland, down 25 at halftime and coming back to win that game. And there was some dubious history made last night. DeRosen was 0 for 8 from the field. that was the worst ever ofer for any player that scored 25 plus points per game during a regular season. I mean,

it's literally never happened before. I don't get it, man. The over ate from the field. I mean, what was going on with the Rosen? I don't know. And, you know, you can look at this series part of it

is just how badly the Raptor stars have played in these losses. I mean, Kyle Lowry, game one was awful. That was one of the worst postseason games. I've seen Kyle Lowry play. And DeMar Rosen in game three, you know, a guy that's been incredibly reliable for them.

You know, with Kyle Lowry out, it was DeRosen keeping this team afloat. You know, for him to put up that kind of clunker in a postseason game, it's just not what you expect. You know, this team is, you know, this team's built for the playoffs. I mean, they can play a variety of different styles. They've got star power, which you need in the postseason.

They can defend in a versatile way because of Abaka. They've done none of those things. You know, they haven't gotten prime performances from their stars. They haven't defended. I mean, that score in the first half was just, I mean, it was, you know, bizarre watching like a 50 to 20 number, 80 to 50 later in the game. I mean, this is the team that should be able to defend at a high level. And in the aftermath of Lowry's injury and Sergei Baca coming on board,

They did defend at a high level. So to see them completely crumbled on that end of the floor and to see a player as reliable as DeRosen has been, you know, play that poorly is just its head scratch. It really is. And I think, you know, while we're criticizing Toronto, we have to look at what Milwaukee is doing defensively. I mean, this is another team that when Jabari Parker went down,

I thought their season was over. I thought they were toast. Maybe they slipped into the playoffs as the 8th seat, but no more than a four-game sweeper. fodder for whoever was number one. They have reinvented themselves as well as a defensive-minded team. I mean, look at the numbers for them. Their defense has been ratcheted up in the aftermath of the Parker injury, and that's

carried over to the postseason. So this is one of the strangest series that I've seen in the first round with, you know, a Milwaukee team that shouldn't be controlling it in this way, having its way for a lot of the series. And they're all, I mean, they are so close. They're two minutes away from being up three. zip on a verge of sweeping. Like, that game was tied

with two minutes left to go, the game two. It wasn't like the Raptors came back in game two on their home court and stuck it to them. I mean, we're two minutes away from Milwaukee being with the chance to close it out in a game four. They posted the other night, when you're talking about how

defensively good they have been. They posted the other night during the course of the game, this graphic where it showed the wingspans of the players, the major rotation players for that team. And it was like, even with Brogden and Tony Snow, these guys had like damn near seven foot

wingspans. And then the other ones like Janice and Maker, like eight foot wingspans. I was like, good, I mean, that has got to be, when they put out some of their lineups, it's got to be as long a team as ever has been assembled.

It's bananas. It has to be. Have to be. I mean, they're, you know, especially Janice and Maker. I mean, they're in that front court, they're ridiculous. And Janice, this series, we could look back at Janice's career and look at this series as his coming out party. Because in the games that they've won, I mean, they have been really good. He has been really good in those matchups shooting.

When he's shooting a high percentage from three, he made both of his threes last night. But when he's shooting a high percentage from three, he's as unguardable as any player in the league. Because the only strategy for defending him of a four-man, is to back off and avoid getting beat up the dribble, forcing him into becoming a jump shooter. If he's making three, what else are you going to do? How are you going to defend him? This is a seven-footer with point guard skills. And I'll tell you what, I was critical of the Thonmaker drastic when it happened.

I didn't think that, you know, I thought he was a decent prospect with somebody more likely to be slotted in the 20s. They were smart there, too. I mean, this guy, you know, he was a mixtape star, you know, coming up in the high school ranks. The seven-footer who shot like Kevin Garnett, I think that was what the video was when it first came out. He has become – his development has happened so much more rapidly than anyone expected. And the core of this team with Janice and Thonmaker and Jabari, that's as good a young core as you're going to find in basketball. Oh, if they had Jabari, they would be a very, very serious problem because they never really got the whole – we never got to see it come to fruition at the same time with Janice, Jabari, and Middleton. those three guys on the court at the same time.

Hopefully we get that soon back and we get to see that soon because this box team with Brogden now too, I mean, I mean, you know, second round picks get laughed at by by average fans sometimes. You know, teams that collect them, you know, you kind of mock them to some degree, but this is why you have second round pick. To get the likes of Malcolm Brogden, to get the Draymond Greens. I mean, these, if you, second round picks are only useless if you treat them like that. If you take the time to identify guys like Brogden, they obviously can be incredibly valuable.

All right. And let's talk about last night's nightcap. I was obviously there for the Grizzlies and the Spurs. A little backstory. I took my beating from you on Tony Parker after games one or two. You sent me some text wanting to talk about Tony Parker. I was very disinterested in engaging you in that conversation. Yet last night, I was giddy.

to talk about Tony Parker and his 0.0 assist game. You know what? It was weird last night. Obviously, the whole story is Zbo and the Grizzlies coming back and them responding after the Fisdale rant and whatever else. I couldn't find this, but I would be surprised to find out if there was a time in the last decade where a Spurs playoff game was played with both guys healthy

that Parker and Genobley both didn't score in the game because both of them threw up donuts in that box score and just a super odd circumstance and the forum was a Hornets Nest last night and once the Grizzlies got going in that second half, Popovich just subbed out everybody and then, you know, it felt decided for a good portion of that second, certainly by the middle of the third quarter,

it felt like the hay was in the barn. Yeah, yeah, I mean, Well, first in the last time we were on this podcast towards Tony Parker was palpable, my friend. You were scoffing at the suggestion that Tony Parker was the wild card for the Spurs with this team. And look, I think the first three games of this season have made my point. When Tony Parker plays really well, the Spurs are virtually unbeatable. The question is, can he sustain high level of play at his age? and given how many, you know, him playing poorly last night

wasn't the reason they lost. I mean, I thought Memphis was jumping. You're right, that game was over well before the foul. You know, Tony Parker kind of sets the tone for this team. You know, the way they play him in the pick and roll, the way he plays in transition, when he gets it going early, he makes this team so much more versatile offensively.

And, you know, he was, you know, look, he's not going to have to shoot 70% from three like he did in the first two games with the series. But if he's given you 14 to 16 points, and he's shooting in the 50% range from the floor, 40% from 3, the Spurs are a title contender. They are a legitimate title contender, and it's largely because of Parker. Well, and you needed last night, for the Grizzly's sake, and I said this going into the series. It was going to have to be a circumstance where it was going to be.

Kauai Leonard is clearly going to be the best player in this series, okay? the next three guys need to be Mike Conley, Marcusal, and Zach Randolph. And in the second half of game two, Fisdale started them together. He's had Zeebo coming off the bench throughout the year. But during the playoffs, you know, there's just too much attention on him. Whereas if he's playing with the other two, he can score on Aldridge, he can score on Pau, and he lights David Lee on fire. So I do wonder, you know, throughout the four games,

games the teams played against each other during the season. That front court of Marcus on Zach Randolph was a big problem for the spurs. And so you have the second half of game two. You have last night where both of those guys were simultaneously awesome. And so I don't, I'm not sure that it's not going to be a long series. I'm not sure that the Grizzlies can't get another game from them. Last night was obviously the game three, first home game, all wrapped up in the emotion. Fisdale talked shit in the post game, blah, blah, blah.

But I do think just basketball-wise, they have found something that is giving the Spurs quite a bit of problems. And it's that front court because the Spurs don't match up with it like they used to when they had a splitter or a Bobon or some kind of monster that Randolph couldn't shoot over. If Zach and Mark can both be good at the same time, the Spurs are going to have their hands full going forward. And that's the story, right? It changed this season with Fisdale and Tweaks

who made to that lineup, but they live and died by the performance of Gassau and Randolph in that front court. And you're right, I mean, this is not, and what's just like the third or fourth series in the last five years that these two teams have played against each other. I mean, they're very familiar with the way each other plays. But, I mean, I'm not going to get too far ahead of myself based on a game three performance. I mean, historically, in situations like this, game three is where that home team gets.

And I don't know. I mean, they played well, and San Antonio didn't, and San Antonio decided to punt on the game, basically. No, right. I agree with a half-time. Game four is. Game four is going to tell the story. That's where it's going to change. But, you know, just going back to Parker, I mean, you know, the reason I had so much, you know, optimism that he was going to be able to dial it up is just because I've seen so many times in the past,

where Greg Popovich has, you know, kind of kept his older stars, you know, throttling right around neutral for most of the season. And when you get to the playoffs, he kind of, you know, let them go and unleash them a little bit. And you see a different type of player. That's just what I saw. And Parker, I don't know how many years he has left doing this, and I do believe San Antonio is going to pursue other options this summer.

Maybe it's going to be a Chris Paul in free agency. but this might be the last year that he has the skill set and the energy in him to dial it up and those first two games show me he does. Yeah, I think that the Spurs, even if they can get a tough series out of the Grizzlies, I don't think they're going to be in the West Finals, Chris. I don't. I think they are just so – Well, I mean, you're giving Houston a lot of credit there, especially defensively.

It's the second guy to count on. I do not trust their second – options. I just don't. And like last night Kauai was not good. He was he had 16 in the first half and I think he had two in the second half. But they are so dependent upon his

individual brilliance. It doesn't get brought up a lot like it is with Westbrook or like it is with Hardin. But I think when it comes playoff time, during the regular season, they're extremely balanced. But during the playoffs, I do think that

who's the other guy that you really worry about going for 20 to 25 against you, and that answers Aldridge, and I've never trusted him. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but it isn't like their fates tied to Kauai Leder. Can't you make that argument for every team in the conference with one player? I mean, Houston, what are they? And I think Kauai Leonard is just as likely, if not more,

to be consistent in a game on both ends of the floors. James Harden did. I don't know. I just think if you're talking, you know, not to get too far ahead of ourselves here, but the reason I think that the Spurs will be in the conference finals and will be a halacious matchup for Golden State is because I have faith that Kauai is going to have far more good games like he had in games one and two than the bad ones he had in game three. I am a little more optimistic that Lamarcus Aldridge can be a big factor in this posties. I am more optimistic that he's going to be a consistent player. I've seen a lot of good play from him,

and I've seen a lot of good play from this kind of two-headed monster that got the center position, Dwayne Dedman and Paul Gasol. Neither one of these guys was remotely effective in game three, but they've been very good, especially in this new kind of dynamic going up against second units coming off the bench. So I'm just, I'm more of a believer, Chris, that consistency is going to come from San Antonio more than it's going to come from Houston, which is offensively completely reliant on what James Harden does in creating offense

and is nowhere near the type of team defensively the Spurs are. That's fair. Last thing. Do you think Celtics take game three? Obviously we're doing this off the cuff because we heard the Rondo injury. I kind of thought the Celtics were going to bounce back and not go down 03 anyway. But now with the Rondo injury, I would be shocked if Boston doesn't take care of them tonight. Yeah, I'm taking game.

three for a few reasons. Obviously, the Rondo injury is paramount. You know, he was a nightmare with the near triple-double in game two. I mean, he was old Celtics Rajon Rondo in game two, just orchestrating the offense brilliantly. I also don't have a lot of faith that the Bulls who have not been a very good three-point shooting team all season are going to be able to shoot close to 40 percent like they did in game two of the series.

now, Robin Lopez remains the X factor. I mean, if Robin Lopez has an 18 and 12 type of game, Boston's going to lose, you know, because he was the re-balled this game all throughout. It was his rebounds that led to those second-chance opportunities, second-chance three-point shot, and those were body blows for the Celtics, but I think they'll be able to overcome that in game three.

Now, you know, this is a monster game for Al Horford, a monster game for Horford. I mean, he has to show up. I mean, I've been one of the staunchest defense. Sanders, Chris, over the last year, because, you know, when he would have one of those 15.7 rebound games and people in Boston or elsewhere would jump all over him, I kind of point to his basketball reference page and say, well, what did you think you were getting? This is what he is, a 15.7 rebound type of guy, but he was a complete no-show in game two. And you can't be the $113 million

man, the number two option on this team, and be a no-show like that in playoff games. You can't. So this is, I think, kind of, you know, the last stand in some ways for Al Horford. He's got to go out and prove himself in this one. Be physical. Be a second option. Be reliable from the perimeter. Take pressure off Isaiah Thomas. If he can do that, I think Boston's got a good chance to get back in this series.

I'm seeing where the beat riders now are reporting that Hoyberg says the Rondo injury is, quote, very difficult. Grant will start. Michael Carter Williams will back him up. Oh, yo, yo. Yeah, but like we said, I think they'll go, I think if those two guys struggle, and they did struggle in the regular season, and they haven't been all that effective in the playoffs thus far, I think we'll see some experimenting there. I mean, Dwayne Wade looks comfortable, bringing the ball up. Jimmy Butler is eager for the challenge of taking on Isaiah Thomas one-on-one. I think we'll see a lot of those two big guard backcourt in game three.

Yes, Chris Manich from Yahoo's the vertical. Chris are the man. Thanks, buddy. Tony Parker 20 points in game four calling it right now holy crap I can't wait to text you 20 points you think you must think this is 2005 well no no again you condescending barbecue eating Memphis guy this is a guy that has had

experience and he's going to get the job done I'll I'll be sure to have my phone on or off you should because your phone will be will be blowing up Obviously. If you had that. Depended upon Tony Parker's success or failure in game number four. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Mannix.

You got it, man. All right, brother. We are going to catch up with Roger Sherman from the ringer.com after these words. The NBA playoffs are here in Seat Geek is the smartest, easiest way to get tickets to your team's favorite games. With Seekek's seamless mobile experience, you can buy and sell tickets in just two taps. Seekeekeek helps you find the best seats and the best prices, fully good. guaranteed. There's nothing like being in a stadium for the biggest plays of the year, and Seat Geek will get you closer to the action for a great value. I've got Seekek

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Add promo code. Enter the promo code Ringer NBA. Seek will send you $20 once you made your first ticket purchase. Download the Seat Geek app and enter the promo code Ringer NBA today. We're joined now by Roger Sherman from the ringer.com. You can go read his article. Russell Westbrook is amazing or awful or both, a debate about his doomed and delirious game two. Of course, game three is 830 central time between the Rockets and the Thunder tonight.

What's up, Roger? Hey, man, how's it going? Thanks for having me. All right, so there have been a tremendous amount of debates about Russell Westbrook. Unbelievably, the guy puts up a 51-point triple-double, and like it's a legitimate debate whether or not. that's good for his team or not. You write about this, you write kind of about both sides of this. Where do you come down on it on Russell Westbrook and is the way he plays the best chance for the thunder?

Well, they don't have any better option, do they? It's the thing. You know, it's not just that he's their best player. It's that when he leaves the game, as he did only twice the other night, they just completely fall apart. They were minus 15 and six minutes, so that you're like, you're giving up two points a minute without Russell Westbrook. There's nothing else they can do, and yet it's not, it's not, doesn't seem like it's

quite good enough. It doesn't seem like he all by himself, you know, with a good. game, let a load of playoffs series, you know, almost every possession responsible for almost every basket by someone else is created by him. It's just this unbelievable load. And I don't think there's a better. I don't think it's a viable way to win a playoff series. Right. And I would say, like, I've been on the side of, well, like, what happened in that game, too, there's no defending that, right? Like, the guy took 18 shots. You know how hard it is to take 18 shots in 12 minutes.

There's a lot of guys that don't have 18 field goal attempts in a game this season, much less in a fourth quarter. And he took crap shot after crap shot. That being said, he's done that so many times throughout the year. And my argument was that they have had the level of success sheerly by his force of will and the fact that he's been able to pull that off, which he could many times during the regular season. But, you know, obviously heightened in the playoffs.

He even talked about three guys guarding him. And you got to – I think you wrote in your article. What is it? Like the last seven minutes, he was three of 14 from the field and had no assist. I mean, that's, like, impossible. That's like – I feel like he took – I get that he's a ball hog, but that's like impossibly ball hoggy. Yeah, I mean, he's a ball hog who Aaron is a triple double.

Right. We call him a ball hog, but he has 10 assists a game. He still passes sometimes. He still passes sometimes. But in the end of that game, he forgot about that aspect of his, you know, he was doing it all himself. They need him to, like, be the person who makes everything happen. And I think they are effective when he's in that, you know, triple. double-rest mindset and not the

I need to score every single point on every single possession mindset because I mean they have they have players who can score when passed two by him he didn't do that and yeah the last seven minutes he did not have an assist

even for him who is turned as a ball hog he normally does maybe it's just because he wants to get those 10 assists and once he gets those out of the way he's taken over but he gets he gets the ball to his teammates but

they there's who would you say on the thunder besides him is like the person most capable of creating a basket by the oladipo you know it's like there's

I haven't been given any opportunity to kind of develop in any way over the course of the season because it's it's just all russ and it works sometimes it works a lot it works like more than with any

player that's ever been given that level of responsibility. No, and I find it intensely, I find it intensely entertaining, but even I can concede if you are being guarded by three guys, you should throw it to one of the other guys on your team. Yeah, Doug McDermott's there just hanging out. Right. Just waiting to shoot. That's all he's, that's all he's there for.

Yeah. No, and we had, and you see at the end of that game, what was even more bizarre was that was not an entire game deal. The first three quarters, he was by far the best player on that court and was getting people involved. And then he just turned into this different human being in the fourth quarter. Yeah, I mean, they will not have been even close to in a position to win, where it's not for a superhuman effort by him, you know? Right. They, in the game in the fourth quarter, because he had a 51 point triple double. And it had to be done in 40 years before this. He was, year. Like, 50 points

of the playoffs. People it's like, that's why they were there. And yeah, it's just to watch those last seven minutes, man. It was just like what happened. It was like, you know, he'd been so good and he was it was like watching the

end of like a depressing war movie or something when everyone's dying. He just couldn't get anything. It was like everything was doomed that he was doing. It was hard to watch. All the rest of his troops, they're all behind him and they're gone, but he is now just one man flailing a sword at an entire army.

Struck down by all the arrows. And you're just like, ooh. It's, it's, you know, he looked a little tired, too, because, I mean, man, even he can't do that for 48 minutes. So you have this whole thing, and I talked about it a lot yesterday, going into the game three's last night, where the team that is up to O, their life. is not on the line at all. If they lose, it's not that big of a deal.

As long as they take care of business in game four, and then they can go and they can close out the series in game five. I think you saw some of that come out of the Spurs and Popovich last night, whereas it's just hard psychologically to have that sense of real urgency when you're up to O. Whereas on the other hand, first home game for the other team backs totally against the wall. They know that it's a death knell if they lose game three. So, much like I said yesterday, listen, I thought the Pacers were in a good spot yesterday, felt great about it at halftime, and then they suck. The Grizzlies were in a good spot yesterday.

I kind of feel that same way about the Thunder tonight. Like, even if this is a series that Houston ends up taking care of business, if the Thunder are going to get a game, it'll be tonight in the game three. Don't you agree? Yeah, you know, if it's going to be a 4-1 series, there are these two. these home games here where it happens. And, I mean, they were blown out in game one, but it's not like it's impossible for them to win. They just need Russ to be like 10% more superhuman than he regularly is.

And he's done that from times for a bit. What is the amount of speaking of, what is the amount of points I could predict Russell Westbrook would score that you would scoff at? On 51, right? Right. He's got to be higher than 51, and he's still got to, Is he still getting a triple double here?

That's the crazy thing about it. I will just assume that there's a, I will assume there's a triple double involved. But at what point if I said, I think Russell West, I think Russell Westbrook's going to score blank tonight. Would you go get the fuck out of here? It's got to be somewhere like up in year 60. Because, like, I mean, he's made the 50-point triple double possible. Like, he's made it possible. I mean, this was his fourth of the year.

like it's not like he's doing it every night but he sound ridiculous and hey if he decided to stop passing he's going near 70 he's pulling a devon booker and getting to 70 if he stops passing that's the new if you hit 70 i don't even know who covey is anymore i hope that's what happens i can't wait to watch it tonight go check out roger sherman's articles on the ringer dot com in fact wrote one today about the eight reasons to get excited about the n-s FL schedule, also covering the NBA playoffs for the ringer. Roger, you're the man. Thanks, brother.

Thanks, man. We'll talk about the NFL in like seven months. Yeah, let's do that. Thanks for listening to another dish to the NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you on Tuesday.