The Ringer NBA Show - Rookie Review: Are the Mavs Already Wasting Flagg? Plus, the Young Pels Show Spunk, Konnnnn!, and More. | Group Chat

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are here to check in on some of the top rookies across the league. They start with the top pick, Cooper Flagg, and how he’s been doing in a dysfunctional Mavs offense. Then they talk about the exciting flashes from Pelicans rookies Jeremiah Fears and Derik Queen. Next, they talk about the three Hornets rookies, V.J. Edgecombe, and Ace Bailey’s slow start. They wrap up with their thoughts on a handful of other rookies who have stuck out to them. Intro (0:00:00) FanDuel ad break (3:21) Cooper Flagg (6:55) FanDuel ad break (23:59) Pels rookies (25:29) Hornets rookies (44:12) V.J. Edgecombe (59:22) Ace Bailey (1:03:12) The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, and Victoria Valencia Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From the group chat, I am Justin Varyer and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle, man. Kyle, did you prepare any grievances or any documents you want to share? I just want to make sure you have the time here. One week ago today, I was terrified in the darkness by a feral cat, let the record show. And therefore could not podcast famously. I've tried to avoid all wild animals out. So it's been a much calmer night, you know, so yeah. We're happy to hear it, Rob.

Absolutely. Do you have any documents, any any airing of grievances? Not a single one. I'm feeling great. I love both of you. I love NBA basketball. I'm ready to participate in our podcast today. One important thing, though, is Reit Shepard. I don't want to like overreact, but first team all NBA. It's in the air, I think. You're not ready to rule it out is what you're saying. We couldn't. It would be bad science, I think, at this point to rule it out. Yeah. Yeah, I think since we question the Rocket's offense in Reed Shepard in particular, and by we, I mean mostly me, but you guys by proxy, they've been pretty fantastic. Yeah. So that's been cool. I think we'll have to return to them at some point.

But while we're on our relative hobby horses, Justin, I was wondering if you had any feelings about basketball reference has the very handy MVP tracker over the course of the season. Who's in the mix based on their statistical performances? Who's playing well? who should actually be in the MVP conversation. Josh Giddy had been surprisingly hanging around. Let's go. The fake MVP odds,

but I regret to inform you, has slipped all the way out. You know, the Jalen Durenz, the Isaiah Hartnerstein's, have supplanted him. What can you do? I just wanted to know if you had a comment about that at this time.

He didn't even make it to our like one month awards. He's not even going to be on the ballot. He could be back. Yeah. Oh, is DeAngelo Russell? on there right now. I can assure you not. Who crossed him over?

Who was it? Was it Donovan that crossed him over? Oh, he fell over. Yes. No, he got crossed. The propaganda has begun. He got crossed out of that MVP tracking. That's what happened. I'm trying to remember who it was. I think it was. Yeah. Listen, this is just the ebbs and flows of the NBA season, right? You know, you're going to have some down nights where you fall flat on your face. You're going to have other nights where you look like the MVP of the league.

I'm just used to this. Maybe you're not because you're new to the, the giddy experience, but, you know, overall, still on the positive side, which is probably better than we had hoped at this point in the season. I mean, unquestionably still on the positive side. I mean, he ultimately could be in all, certainly All-Star. I think All-NBA might be a bit much at this point. But you know what? When you're right, you're right, Justin. I think we're going to have to back off and respect both you and Josh Giddy for once. We need that as the drop after the Portland changed one. We need you just telling me I'm right over. over again. I'll send you as a voice note so you can play it for yourself whenever you need.

It was DeAndre Hunter, by the way, for the record. I want to make sure DeAndi Hunter gets his, cred. I'm known for that. So, Isaiah cleared that up. Thanks, Isaiah. You're listening to The Ringer NBA show presented by Fandul. Fandul now displays your bet directly on your phone's lock screen. And with the latest updates to the live events and player pages, it's never been easier to be part of the game. And Missouri, get excited because Fandul's coming your way December 1st. Download the Fandall Sportsbook app now and play your game.

21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming, gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Helph.com. Call 188-789-777-7-7 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Well, glad we got all this league-wide talk out of the way early because on today's podcast,

we're going to be entirely. We cover it all in four minutes of totally cool banter. But we're doing all rookies today. We have the foremost young player expert. Kyle, what would you say? Young player fetishist, perhaps.

That doesn't sound good. That word didn't really. No. No, I didn't really have that board at the top of them. Okay. All right. Justin,

I mean, I don't even have words for you. Your pre-show discussion was inappropriate. Now you're talking about fetishes and things. Yep. I think you need to rain. in and get control of yourself. I like to watch players develop.

I mean, if you want to pervert that in some way, I'm sure you'll find a way. See, Kyle and I stand on the side of progress. You know, we like to see the times marching forward, Justin, whereas, you know, you're not as interested in these things. You in Portland over there, you guys. We're very progressive about many, many things. Perhaps not the rookie class is one of them.

There's just too many to get through. But we're going to talk about a lot of rookies. if you've already done so thus far over the first couple pods of the season, because the rookies have been so prominent this year, I was actually trying to think about this. This is probably the most intriguing rookie class, I would say, in a very long time. The only one I can really think of, Kyle, is like maybe 2021, because that class is ending up being just stocked with contributors, but I don't remember it being immediately like appointment viewing. Like Mowgli was like, fine, Cade was like figuring himself out. Now we have like, flag was awesome.

some Harper before he got hurt was awesome. There's just like a lot to watch even on a given night. Yeah, a lot of that, there was a lot of shakeup in that draft. A lot of guys that kind of moved up. Obviously, Shingoon, you know, it's funny that O'KC originally drafted him and traded him, but, you know, Giddy moving up, Barnes moving up. He obviously has his fans and befuddled detractors. Trey Murphy was one that I really underestimated and whiffed hard on that one. And then Cade and Jalen Johnson, another one who kind of came out of the woodwork and became a serious player. So definitely not chalk on that one, but this one at the top, I mean, if you're just kind of looking at the early returns, there's one worrisome guy that I think we'll get to that that is, but I don't even know if it's even like bonafide worry. I think of the top 10 guys, there's nobody that I'm watching and I'm just, I'm just thinking, oof, like this is, there's trouble here. Like there are still paths, I think, for even the guys who are not having a great start to get to a serviceable place. Well, and because you had multiple teams jumping in the lottery order.

Some of these rookies are just playing massively important teams for teams that actually do matter. And sometimes that's for better and worse. I'm sure we're going to get to it very soon with Cooper, for example, and everything he's being asked to do. But the rookies are in the spotlight right now. They're relevant NBA contributors from this class in a way that I know I certainly didn't anticipate, Justin. Yeah. Well, let's start with Cooper right off the top here because their Mavs are unfortunately probably the story of the NBA right now for all negative. reasons. Rob, I think people expected, especially after the start that they got off to, that

the Mavs might struggle this year. I think the thing that's been most jarring is that they just aren't fun at all. Like the flag experience, he has moments, but it just feels like a bit of a slug, even like, there is no like fun young rookie situation. I was thinking back to Zion, for instance. The Pellas were awful, but he would have these moments that just felt like like earthquake ripples, that you just had to like pay attention to. Flax had moments, but he hasn't really had that. And as a result, like the Mavs just feel like just like a catastrophe. All the bad things start to go to the foreground as opposed to some of the exciting young players.

Remember when Zion hit four threes in a row? That's exactly what I was thinking about. That was incredible. I mean, they could use some of that from Cooper right now. Anyone who could hit a three at any point in time would be nice for the Mavericks. But it's like, it's hard to have those sort of breakout moments, even as a young player, when your team is this sludgy, this stuck in the mud, this absolutely desperate for anyone who can handle the ball, anyone who can make space whatsoever, like right now,

I would like for the two of you to guess for me, how many Dallas Mavericks are shooting better than 30% from three? 30%? Oh, boy. You know, Kyle could walk on a basketball court right now. 30? And shoot 30% from three. Not me?

No. Absolutely. Rob seen my thumb and jumper. Yeah, I can get 30. Yeah, it's ugly as hell. Underhand or something. I'm going to guess two. It is exactly two.

Max Christie, Jaden Hardy. Those are the only players. I'm not even talking about league average. 30% from three. Cooper is among them. And sometimes, like, he's just being asked to take a lot of jump shots that even he doesn't really want to take

because there's no plausible way to get to the rim within this offense right now. And that, my friends, is why the Dallas Mavericks the single worst offense in the entire NBA already this far into the season. And even when you get Anthony Davis back full time and all your Derek lively, everyone back and healthy,

I just don't see the route to them being even a moderately successful offense. Here's a stat. Ding, ding, ding. I'm going to jump in. This season, Cooper Flagg has taken 19 catch and shoot jump shots. He has taken 41 dribble jump shots. That's way off.

I just don't think that that can be, I think it speaks to the burden that he is carrying of facilitating. He's just not getting the easy money that he is really good at cashing in on. Now the ones that he's getting, whenever he gets spot-up threes, let's see. Well, the spot-up isn't as great either. He's not hitting those. He's not hitting anything. Well, he's not getting good shots.

We can talk more about the nuances throughout his game. I think if he was getting more kind of found money in transition, and things like that. He obviously looks great when he's out and running. He's looked good when he's attacking attacking mismatches. He can post and score on smaller players, which I think is an, you would think that that would be a sort of implied thing for NBA players. It is not. So he is an 18-year-old is attacking that. And I think that's a positive sign to me once there's a little oxygen in their offense that he'll be able to find those little avenues and places to be productive when he's not so burden. Yeah, I mean, it's tough because I think,

Optically, the Mavs were in a tough spot no matter what. To have them fall on their face like this was never going to work out well for the team, especially Nico Harrison and everyone involved in the Luca Dodgers train, right? They weren't going to get goodwill. They don't deserve goodwill. They're definitely not getting it right now as like while we're on. Mark Stein's already reporting like, they might move on from Nico Harrison. Like that's going to just build over the next couple weeks. But when I watch them, without AD, without Kyrie, I'm like, this is

a bad team with a rookie trying to find himself and get more opportunities than he probably should on a team that's playing with stakes. And so, like, I'm sympathetic to a certain extent because I just don't know what else you would want. Like, they're playing...

Sympathetic to whom? To Cooper or to the Mavericks more broadly? Yeah, to all the people that weren't involved in the Luca trade. I guess if you were to really like, to find some thing to poke holes. And it was that once they turned the page to Cooper, they practically brought back

the supporting cast from Luca. So there are a lot of players that typically need to be activated by someone who is a plus creator, which is why I think they're overburdening Cooper in that role. Yes. But other than that, like, this is kind of a typical rookie experience.

And so I almost wonder, maybe, like, we're to blame to a certain extent for even the hype machine, like, projecting him to be like a 25 point per game score or whatever people were expecting when really he was kind of set up to be about this, I would say. I think there's a truth to that. For one, like Cooper

Flagg's game, he was always going to be more comfortable, especially out of the gate playing in the flow, playing in transition, as Kyle mentioned. And ultimately, he has the style of game that is going to amplify other really good players, especially creators. And so when you don't have those, there's always going to be something from him, especially

this early on that's like, it leaves you a little bit wanting, that is a little bit against the grain of how he should be playing or how he best plays. That is part of it. But as far as what you were saying, Justin, about like feeling for everyone who wasn't involved in the trade, I'm with you. But there's also the part of it where Nico Harrison, the guy who is responsible for the trait, is still the present tense general manager of the team.

And most critically here is the guy who then took the team into the offseason and didn't bring in any guards whatsoever who could actually help them and help spell Cooper and put them into a kind of a normal formation of a team. And so when the past tense nightmares are still the present tense nightmares, this is where you're left. Yeah. If you're looking at this team, Rob and I were talking about this the other day where I, there's been a lot of just how I can't believe they're doing this to Cooper. My God. Like, oh, if you watch this team, this isn't some arbitrary experiment where they're just being twiddling, twirling, twirling their mustache, whatever it is.

Twirling, I don't know. And I've never done it. they're not just deviously saying like let's let's do something and get weird here this is they need him to pass the ball because obviously we know delo can do a little bit of that but and they're trying to find little ways to take the the pressure of him just being ridden like a horse up the up the court by the on ball defender I mean they'll advance it uh I mean sometimes we'll see nim hard bring it up sometimes we'll see delo bring it up and Cooper will catch it at the elbow and then they'll get into something they're trying to relieve him here and there but um Overall, I sent you all a dock where I was just taking screenshots of what the paint looks like whenever Cooper turns the corner. And it is a crowded house. It is, it is very, very jam-packed in there. And you could imagine how even a good, you know, like high-volume ball screen operator would have a hard time dealing with the space that they have. And like, you're absolutely right that, I mean, this was when you build a machine for Luca, when you build a team for him, it's a very, you know, there's a strict kind of guided template to how to do that and to assume that

would just plug into that and be efficient. Yeah, I mean, if you're saying like the hype we're responsible for the hype, yeah, I mean, I'll, I assume that he would come in and figure it out, but we still do have some time. I'm not acting like this is going to get, like, outrageous, that he's just going to figure it out to the extent that he's going to be an all-star level Luca type player or even be as good as Luca was as a pick and role player's rookie year. But I do think that it's going to get better and he'll slowly start. Because he's like the young, Is he the youngest player in the league? I think he is.

I mean, he's just wildly talented. Like, wildly self-evidently talented. It's just that every night he goes out, he is being put in a position to fail. Like, just in his role on a nightly basis. And maybe long-term, you're put through the paces of that. There's some creative additions that come from having to, like, the forcing function of working under these conditions could help him long-term. I'm open to those possibilities.

You can even see it when he does get into the paint. Like, Cooper Flagg's footwork inside is really clever. and really interesting. And you'll see him bait guys off balance. You'll see the up and unders, the step-throughs, all this stuff that I think getting used to working under these conditions could ultimately amplify things about him

that are already, or we're already going to be pretty successful. But right now it's not much fun to watch. I just, I loathe to turn on any game involving this team at this point. I don't know when or if that could possibly change. And the part of this that I think I hate the most is that all of this point guard conversation leads to a lot of Kyrie Irving conversation. and there were quotes from Jason kids saying, I guess, like, you know, we'll talk after Thanksgiving.

Well, you know, we'll talk in a couple weeks. All these hints from in and around the team, putting pressure on a guy with a massive injury history coming back from a huge, significant, in many cases, career altering injury. And now you're talking about rushing him back, not to say that they're doing back that, but there's a lot of conversation about it

in a way that makes me really uncomfortable. Same. Yeah, it's tough because you would think that Russell could have done enough in order to provide some structure to the team. But even now that he's in the starting lineup with Max Christie, so they look like a more balanced starting lineup, they've done away for the most part with, at least to start with the tall ball, like, what is it, the East version of what the Rockets are doing? Is Dallas east of Houston? Come on. This is embarrassing. What are you doing? I haven't pulled out my topography map in a little while. Where is it? I'm sorry,

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't know you're asking what the conference there is. And I was like, I think we got to cancel the show. I look out there sometimes. And yes, like the ball moves a little bit better than it did to start this season. But like who's cracking the pain a lot of the time? Because Russell just wants to float away and just like make passes to impress himself most of the time. I will say in the midst of all of this, Rob is right. Like, Cooper plays the right way.

Like to the point where in one game, he was almost overpassing to Clay Thompson just because like that's just what you do. Clay just wasn't on at that point. And probably he should have just taken it. to himself, but, like, he has those right impulses. And the one good thing actually going for the Mavs, because they literally have the worst offense in the NBA, which big yikes, the defense is starting to balance out a little bit. At the very least, they're good on one end of the floor.

And, Kyle, you're seeing, like, what Cooper can do. Like, they have good defensive personnel, first and foremost. But, like, he is just everything you would want from a guy who could guard multiple positions. I think it was, I forgot what game I was watching. I think it was the Pelicans where, like, someone tried to take a deep three. And he just, like, stayed down and it reached out. and he blocked it. It's just like, it's got the dimensions. He's very, like, savvy. It's just like, at the very least, they are bringing it on that end. You can see, like, him within that established

structure, like, starting to pop as a result. Yeah, I think once the ball pressure gets a little bit better and, like, those things are going to start to really, really elevate it and take it to another level, because obviously you've got all that link to block out the sun. And Cooper's really mature. I, like, I was watching them early in the season. I was like, I don't think that you're going to have, like, the issues that we're seeing with some of the other rookies about just getting up to the level of what is the standard for communicating, for just the pace and the speed of the actions and what your accountability looks like at the NBA level. Like I never thought that Cooper was going to struggle with that because he's just very dialed in.

You all were talking about him just making the right play. That's just the way he is. You were saying like DeAngelo doing things to amuse himself, there might be a situation in a blowout where Cooper's having a good time, but very rarely. Like, I mean, he's very much about, he's just single-minded about trying to win basketball game. So yeah, the defensive stuff is definitely going to come and it's been I mean, it's been highs and lows. I mean, the

OKC game, that was the one where he banged his shoulder, I think, though, where he had the two points. But I mean, you know, he's had some good ones to 22 points against the day before, yeah, four assists, four rebounds. So he's had some good games, but it's been very up and down like you all said. I'm cool with where he is generally. I'm just not cool with the circumstances

around him. And so like once those things start to change, you'll see his game fall into place. And again, like, once he starts to play with other stars or other creators, he's going to look like a totally different player. It's tough when a GM doesn't get the big stuff right or the small stuff right. Like you see a lot of GMs that perhaps don't have like the soft skills to deal with like superstars, which clearly I don't think worked out for the Mavs last season.

But then like perhaps they're just good at finding guys on the fringes, like working the way of a wire to pluck undrafted guys and all of a sudden you have a contributor. But they haven't gotten either part right. I mean like Brandon Williams is in the rotation. He's like, fine. But at one point, Caleb Martin checked in, barely playing at this point. But he checked in. I was like, why aren't you quitting Grimes?

You know, like, especially considering. You know the answer for that. Didn't get extended. Yeah. Like, he could easily just be playing on a make good deal, just getting shots up, being that sort of like release valve or just someone just like you could turn to to create offense. Nico Harrison's kingdom for Quinn Grimes on a qualifying offer right now. Like, are you kidding me?

This is why that was a ridiculous trade then. And why, again, as you're saying, just like so many of these moves, even the micro ones, even the ones that aren't on a Luca level like cataclysmic event, just have not been good enough, have not been like the kinds of moves you string together to build a successful team, which is wild, considering they did all of those to build a finals team and then just punted it away. That's the craziest thing is that he did put together an insanely clever run to put together that template that we were talking about. Like he did a fantastic job getting Gafford and PJ. is the perfect 4.5 to play next to Luca. And then they go get Kyrie and it was just like, and now everything since then has just been disaster. Yeah.

He's changed the fate of the NBA because he thought Luca was a dick. That's literally what happened. He just didn't like to deal with him. And he just completely changed history on the fly. Is it even that he thought Luca was a dick or was like, I don't really know how or want to talk to this guy and therefore it's easier for my job to trade him? I'm not going to get this guy to take Shantix or Wagovi or whatever it is to get him to stop smoking or whatever it is. I don't know. Like shantics still a thing. I don't know. I had a dad. I have my dad smokes. I remember hearing a lot of these drugs back in the day. But, yeah, I mean.

That's drug report with Kyle Mann. You heard it. Hey, hit me up with the best ways to smoking cessation. My next episode, Zinn packs. Yeah. It's, yeah, I don't know. I forgot you where I was going with that. But yeah. I'll say, this. He didn't have a particularly good game against the Wizards, another game that was way too close that it should have been. But he was getting out in transition. The team overall was getting out in transition. It would be nice that the defensive success bred

more speed on the other end. So they were just playing a little bit more free because they do have a lot of athletes on this team. I do worry though when AD comes back and it seems like he might try to go sometime this week. Like then that's just another guy that's going to drag them down, especially now that he's like, it's just pumping iron in the offseason for some reason.

Yeah, drag them down in terms of speed, you're saying. Yes, yes. Better player, but just slower these days. I mean, their ideal is to play big and bulky and not run. Like, that's what they want to do. And they also can't score inside and they can't shoot. And there's, I think, maybe one and a half players on this team that can dribble. So, yeah, they've got some problems. And Cooper has some problems as a result of that that we've seen manifest in all sorts of ways.

But yeah, I think ultimately the ups and down so far feel, if not par for the course for a number one overall pick who was as highly touted as one who is dealing with these sorts of circumstances. There was a play. I think it might have been against the Wizards where Cooper made a jump shot. And they always on the broadcast cut to the close as you're going back down the court. And Cooper had this look on his face and he just goes, he like let out this big exhale. And I was like, man, I was like this is. And he said it.

I mean, he said this is the first time Tim Kato was asking me. He was like, can you think of any time when they lost in the past? I was like, even his little YBL team from Maine, they want to. lot of games. So, uh, psychologically, yeah, I'm sure it's a big, it's a big adjustment.

Also, did you see Mark Cuban say the thing about, um, if he had like redefined or established his role? He dropped a little more of a, not so subtle little thing. I don't know if that's, uh,

well, yeah, I was going to say, I don't know if that's the Danny Ains like I would have gotten the superstar, but yeah, I hadn't really heard him say, Mark Cuban.

Like he's been suggesting this for a very long time now because he realizes that like he's taking shrapnel for not doing enough to stop it, to put his body in front of it. And so he's going out of his way to be like, nope, wasn't me, wasn't me, wasn't me, which is like, I guess is fine. I would probably do the same thing to distance myself from one of the worst trades

in NBA history, but also like, you're still a minority owner here. Like, you're not really solving much of the issue and your issue was selling the team in the first place. So whatever. What a mess. Yeah. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fandul.

Get in on the NBA action at any time with live betting on Fandul. From the first whistle until the final buzzer. Fandu is your home for live betting. So we're looking at Monday's slate in the NBA. Pretty robust one, I would say. Of course, we're looking at, you guessed it. Portland at Orlando, Portland on, I believe, a five-game road trip,

but still on the front end, Magic, are on a back-to-back at home, and they just lost to the Celtics. They might be motivated, but at the same time, they might be worn down, and Portland is guarding practically full court every possession at this point. So I'm going to take Portland plus two. In Orlando, that game might be in the 80s because both of these teams might struggle to score, but I believe in the Blazers, believe it or not.

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which expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook. Fandul.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gandler or visit RG-Help.com. Call 1-888-889-77-7-7-7 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, well, let's transition then to something a little bit more cheery, which is the New Orleans Pelicans.

Believe it or not. since our last episode where we left them for dead. But at the very least, there are glimmers of hopes. You can look off into the horizon. You can see a little bit of a glimmer. Very distantly, it's gleaming.

At the very least, it's fun, which is the complete opposite of the Mavs situation, where I'm watching Derek Queen the other day. And I'm like, oh, he doesn't know what he's doing most of the time, but when he does, this is sick.

And so Kyle, former teammate of Cooper Flagg, a guy that you watched in college. What have you thought so far about Queen? We had a moment the other night where like three or four of the Montverd guys on the TV at the same time. Liam McNally, Derek Queen, Asa Newell, and Cooper Flagg were all out there. And the point guard is playing with DeBonset, BYU.

Anyway, Derek Queen, were you, wait, what was it you asked me even about the, what was the person? Just your thoughts. Oh, just in general, sorry, I had to get that out. In general, brace myself against the wall here. Queen is doing a lot of what I've been in a situation. Hold on. What are you doing? Was there an earthquake as you even just pondered Derek Queen?

I cut this, Isaiah. I was stretching. I don't know. I don't know that we are cutting that. God damn it. Queen has always been a tough one for me because when we were coming up, Justin read everything that I wrote about Queen over the course of the year, where it was a balancing act of like, holy moly, the talent that this guy has.

And this plays out in the games where he does this thing where he does this thing where, and this, this will describe what I'm talking about. He'll, he'll kind of move along at this kind of laissez-faire, like nonchalant, blah, blah, but da, but then he'll catch the ball, and he'll just lock in. Like last night in that game against the Spurs, you see him just kind of doing his saunter. He's like, yeah, it's cool, everything's cool, whatever.

I got my long-sleeve shirt on under my jersey. And then he catches it, and you're like, oh, wow, he's, like, processing the game at a high level, attacking Wimby. He, like, refused to take no for an answer against Wimby, and you can just see him being like, I'm going to figure this out in the way that, Shingun kind of goes at Wimby.

But I think that's the balancing act of him. I ended up having him at 8 just because the frustrations for me never caused the bottom to come out completely because I was just, I kept coming back to, and I think I kept coming back to those skills. And I think the interesting thing for them and one of the conversations about them that I would throw to you all is, what position does he play? Is he actually a wing that has some inside, some interior kind of skills? Or is he an interior player that is just not quite ready to stretch?

like it's hard to kind of, he's a weird player, you know, because he kind of projects as a, as a hub and we saw a lot of those things. I guess the question really is just going to come down to will he be able to, will he be able to shoot it so that they can play him in more positions? It's what it is what makes him tantalizing and potentially frustrating down the line that he's in that exact space. Like I believe in the hub stuff already, right? Like you can see the talent. You can see him already, not just processing it, Kyle, but like really mixing up the, I'm going to just be on the perimeter doing the normal dribble handoff

keep the chains moving kind of offense that everyone relies on with really exciting backdoor feeds that are hitting guys in perfect timing, perfect spacing. It's amazing how quickly just by given, once he started getting minutes from Willie Green, all of us and he's just

one of the team's most important playmakers. And that is kind of the gravity of that sort of talent. But if you can't shoot, and I would say his handle is not the most reliable and certainly not as good as he thinks it is, which can be a problem in certain scenarios as he's trying to like work through traffic or just like a little too casually against defenders who are pressing into him. It's matchup dependent, I would say. We can get more into that. Totally fair. But,

but I think I believe in him as a hub. If he's not a hub, I don't know what he is. I see a lot of modern Zibo in him, which I guess the immediate comp is baby Yokish to the point where that like that is on his literal basketball reference page. I think nine different players can claim that nickname at this point and you can tell like when a player's reached a certain level like then like he just gets other guys paid just like hoping that they could be 25% of that because we also got Young Hansen

in the draft I guess Denny Wolfe is like a little bit like this where a lot of guys are just like oh center who could be a hub and it's just like a skilled passer but can you be a baby Yokic if you like low key maybe can't score inside that much is that a thing like I just worry about Derek Queen finishing over contest

from actual bigs well a lot of what I what we saw over the past couple games was him just like trying to back dudes down. The poorly he tried against Clay Thompson at one point, didn't move him, but yet still tried to like do a fall away on him. I just, it seems like the power skill combination is going to be his bread and butter.

We'll see what comes later. But that's why I think of Zibo, not only because of like some of the like attributes, but also like this guy has like a spirit to him that is reminiscent of Zibo where he's like, I want to mall you, but like, isn't this so fun? Aren't we just like,

isn't this great? We're just like having fun on the basketball? the ball court. He is funny. I was telling you all that he does have a sort of childlikeness about him. He wears braces. Yeah. I mean, he had a play last night where he had been dealing with the physicality. I mean, so, and we'll get into this about what Rob was saying about the handle, like, where and when is it functional? When he's like, I think the biggest thing is when another team plays a modern big or play, like he had Gafford guarding him in one game. I know at one point, Gafford was just not equipped to guard a guy ruff vaguely that size who could handle the ball like that with craftiness.

And Derek's ability to use sort of to improvise with his feet. Like he's very good and he's not like prescripted in a way. Like he can get towards the rim, take these big steps and cause problems, angular problems. But something that we saw in Summer League that was interesting was whenever we had Leonard Miller, Whenever we get these big, like four, five, like long, powerful wings in the NBA, like the Tari Easton type guys, like those players cause Derek a little bit of trouble. Like, we saw Sohan annoying him, but whenever he gets a true big on him, he causes those problems.

The other, the issue is speaking to the positional thing, Rob's just like grinning. I don't know why. I don't feel good about it. Stop grinning. I just enjoy your takes. Is there a fun guy? Is there something wrong with that? You're our good.

Queen making me paranoid here. No, always worried about what he's. What he's thinking. No, the problem is that he's not much of a rent protector. And you can't have that same, like I'm kind of,

and this was the thing I criticized him for over and over again, is just not paying attention when the ball goes up on the glass. He could be, he could just feast on the glass because his hands are so good. But just sort of locking in just a little too late on defense. Like he's not a rent protector. His hands are really good. He swipes really good.

He'll just straight up rip people. But then he just, he presents a lot of problems, I think, on that front in terms of you got to play a room protector next to him or else I think you're going to just, you're not going to be able to capitalize on the offensive stuff that he gets, the guess. That's going to be the huge uphill battle for him is can he ever become the kind of spacer and like aggressive hub on the perimeter where you can play him with another five? Or will he ever get to even like an adequate level? you know, like this is where the baby

Yokic comp is instructive. It's like, can he get to a Yokic level defensively, right? Of just kind of like being active, getting stealing with those hands, like doing other things that can offset the lack of rent protection because I mean, Kyle, I think you were very generous in saying he's not much of a rim protector. Like he's uninterested in it.

He is not paying attention to it. It is just like a part of the game that exists in a totally different dimension from him. And he's big, but he's not massive in the way that Yokic or some of these other like true. five. Very true.

With skill come in. And we've seen this time and time again, though. If you're skilled and you're a big man, you're a four who needs the perfect five to compliment you. Like, look at what's happening with Shangun who's having an awesome season. Like, they're doing less of the double big situation, but they're still doing keeping amounts of it because it's such an advantage. And partly because Shangun just isn't the shooter there.

It's just like it's a problem that isn't going to go away, but we keep getting these big men who are skilled, but you always need to handcuff them with an actual big man. It's like it's not going to change at a certain point. And so I think ultimately he'll end up as a four next to a true five. Hopefully someone who could space. We'll see if he could provide the spacing or the other guy can. But the problem overall, Kyle, is just like, that's Zion, a different type of players, certainly. But like he is a four who needs a spacing five next to him.

And so part of the concern I had with the trade overall, if like you're giving away next year's pick, is that those guys overlap a certain degree. And unfortunately, the games where Zion has been out, recently, the team has been really fun. Jordan Poole hasn't been there as well. Like, fears just seems like completely unleashed. Trey Murphy was awesome against the spurs. Like, if they just didn't show up the rest of the season,

Pool and Zion, this team would at the very least be a more attractive product. And Trey Murphy never looks more athletic than when he plays with someone like Derek Queen who's like hitting him back door for dunks. It's like all of a sudden he looks like a totally different player when you have that kind of movement out there. It's funny that they have these like facsimile versions of it's the Seinfeld Bizarro episode with Feldman and you'll see that one.

Rob thinks that shows funny. I just wanted to clarify. Probably the best sitcom of all time. So yeah, that one's pretty good. Okay, good to know that you like something widely accepted. So yeah, it is funny that they have those guys. I know that we'll get to fears. But the guy that always came to mind for me was he just, he has a lot of Boris kind of in his personality as a player where Boris would just be like, I'm not interested in what's going on right here. And then he would get in a lineup with a team of other guys who could really play.

And you'd be like, is that the most skilled player of all time? Like, that's kind of how Derek comes and goes. It's like he's like that. And I'm still holding stock that I think he's going to figure it out. And Justin, you're right that it's totally changed the viewing experience for the pelicans. And everything about the feel of the team changes when a guy like this starts getting involved. And isn't just like an abstract conversation we're having about the picks that were traded to get him. like, no, this is a real, tangible, incredibly skilled basketball player who could do all sorts

of exciting things. The fact that we even having an actual conversation about, like, can he and Zion play together in these contexts is a good conversation to have because it's happening because Derek Queen looks good and looks exciting and looks talented. Like, I don't even care that he's trying to throw lobs from like three quarters scored. Like, I don't even give a shit. Like, keep doing it. Keep pushing and pushing and see how far this thing can go. It's unfortunate that the trade is going to linger over him for so long because even if he played if he was like rookie of the year they could still easily give away a top five pick and so this is going to haunt him for a while maybe it's motivation we'll see but it is fun too because fears on the on the other side of this there is not

only being fun in his own right but also there's a nice little comparison there where you have like the slow and steady back him down sort of big man and then you have fears who is just so like quick Kyle where it's just like his ability not only to translate his speed to the NBA level immediately, but the fluidity with which he's doing it and the start and stop stuff has been pretty remarkable thus far. He's a smooth mover, man. That was the thing about like I worried. He was a guy that I pulled down that I couldn't hold, I couldn't hold steady in the same way that I did with with Queen where I was, I was just worried about the shooting and those things that we can unpack. But in terms of him as a mover, man, I mean, absolutely. He gets wherever.

he wants to. He kind of reminded me a little bit of Tray Man's start, stop, how like just hard and violent it is. Granted, I think that Jeremiah is a better pastor than Trey could ever dream of being already. But he just, they both just look really comfortable in the speed of the NBA game as like very, just sort of off speed pitches the way, you know, Queen slows you down and then kills you with the start stop. Like, Jeremiah can play that way. I guess it just kind of comes down to the question of he is small. Like they as a duo, I think, are just going to present some questions because people are going to go at him. Granted, he's not a bad athlete. It's not like

he's some groundbound, can't do anything kind of guy. But you can shoot the ball. It's just you run into a situation where even if you can add, we've seen with Tray Young, if you can add incredible amount of pluses, like if you're going to be a liability at one point that, how can you climb out of that if you're going to be a smaller guy that teams go at constantly? Yeah. I mean, He's small in terms of stature, but he's lanky. Like, I think there are ways in which he can kind of offset it potentially, but I love what you're saying about the kind of changing paces or the dueling banjos sort of effect that these two guys can have. I guess it's not dueling banjos because they're different instruments. It's a banjo in a tempany or something.

Like, there's very different things happening. Did you say banjo so I would understand it? I did. I was trying to speak your language. I just stepped right in it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get it. Is Rob not?

full southern? Do you not claim it's a different country? Yeah. It's different. Yeah. It's a different thing. A touch. A touch different. I was trying to pull up. Yeah, he I mean, yeah, he's not tiny. So about he's about six three. So yeah. But I like I want those two guys playing together as much as humanly possible so that they can figure out that dynamic. Because I mean, Jeremiah fears incredible at making plays right now.

Not, I mean, he looks like a 19 year old point guard when he comes to like trying to run the team all like the time and school. stuff, the game management stuff, that's a long-term project. For now, he's popping off the screen. And I mean that like literally, when he comes around a screen, like you can see the effect that it's having on a defense. You can feel all the possibilities starting to unlock. And so the more that he and Derek Queen are playing together, figuring out what their chemistry can look like, I think that's the most exciting version of the Pelicans future at this point. Yeah, the size thing is pretty fascinating, though, because it is in kind of a macro sense. Like if you're trying to build your

building blocks from the jump here. And it seems like that's what Joe Dumars did, just like try to get two guys he could build around and kind of turn the page on what's been happening there. It's tough because you look around the league and there are so many teams that are just huge at every position. Like, I won't say the team in the Pacific Northwest that's doing this, but also like OKC for, for instance. Like there's just like at a certain point, you're going to hit your head on the ceiling. And I do wonder, Kyle, like, how do you weigh just someone who could be electric versus long term concerns, you know? That counts as a swear jar because you did the thing where you said the F word and you refused to say the word, but you made me think of the word. So you effectively said it. So I think

that counts as I think that counts as a swear jar for I've had some I've had some people suggest that we need to get up. There we go. A Patreon going just to fund my swear jar contribution. So the people are behind me. I'm down to do it, but you have to match. Like I think whatever people donate, you have to match or vice versa. Like we got to get some system going here. I don't make that much money. You could talk about the Blazers less. That's a thing you could do. No, I'll die before I do that.

No. Yeah, I'll set my garden on fire. Oh, God, no. It's simply the last thing that any of us want. It's too wet in Portland. You wouldn't be able to set that thing. You'd just be sitting there trying to light it. You've probably never lit a fire.

I had to explain that too. Wow. No, so. Listen, I used the starter. I'm not like using rocks like you out there. soft hands doesn't barrier. That's what we call them. Oh, wow. Yeah, a call on there. No, I, uh, I mean, it is going to be an issue. I mean, if you're going to assume that

they're going to be keeping Murphy around, Missy's a big athletic guy. Yeah. I mean, you just kind of have to, I'll quote our guy charts. Once you draft one and you lean in on one smaller guard, you're out of the small guard business. I don't know what that means for Alvarado. So from henceforth, every decision they make if they believe in this, in this duo, and it, I guess, this, if they do, that might say something about how they feel about Zion long term. But everything, if you believe in it, everything after this, you just kind of have to go from from here. But I don't know, like, Rob, how do you, where do you go from there? How do, is it, is it just big, lengthy wings? Do you need a better rim protector than Eve Missy? Are they,

it's, and it's funny that we're going from what you all said last week to this, where we're like, do they have the blueprint? Like, well, that's it, of itself is a, if they had a top five pick to put on top of what they have now, they'd be in the money, my friend. They'd be really interesting. The problem before was there was no lines on the blueprint. We were just looking at a blank page as the team was like, oh and seven and being like,

what the fuck is this? And now you can at least see something coming together. Will that thing work? Like, will the queen fierce partnership 10 years from now feel like a successful one or one they got ejected or one that bought, like, you know, hit a comfortable middle but never fully succeeded? Those are obvious possibilities.

I think the most likely outcome for any pairing of rookies is that they will fail, that they're not going to reach their ultimate potential, that this will not be a pairing of all stars that will carry the pelicans to a championship. But they could be fun and they could be exciting, and they have time and they have the opportunity to do it. So now that they're here,

I agree with you. It creates a whole host of other problems you now need to solve. I like Eve Missy, but you need an adult room protector, frankly. Like someone who is a little, someone who's not going to jump at literally every pump fake, right? Like if Derek Queen is going to be a little spacey and going to need time to kind of figure out defensive fundamentals, the guy you want to pair him with is somebody who's a little more responsible about when he leaves his feet. Can't have a fouling machine next to the guy who's not totally paying attention.

That doesn't work. Do we have second half of, I'm going to, here we go, devil's advocate. Do we have second half of Spurs game boner right now a little bit? Yes. You know, I'm just trying to just put that out there. Are we of our right mind at this moment? They're going to lose a shit ton of game. They're going to be one of the three worst teams in the league

no matter what they try to do. We're talking about, can these young guys be good and interesting? And I think they've both shown that they could potentially be good and interesting. A lot of that's going to depend on the shooting clicking. And I mean, that's a whole separate conversation with fears even from Queen, although I think his mid-ranges look pretty good and pretty comfortable for him.

Yeah. I mean, every single one looks like a different shot. So I don't think that's a great sign. But he's hitting enough of them that I feel okay about where that part of everything is. Pelicans are doing the bare minimum. Congrats. Let's shift now to another team

trying to figure itself out on the fly here and play through some injuries. We've got to talk about the Charlotte Hornets. And first and foremost, our guy, Khan Canipal, who whenever I say his name, I think of the British Bake Off voice saying it. He just sounds like an English pastry. A pastry you've literally never heard of

that no one in any country or on the world has ever eaten except for the Brits somehow. You need to make 12 Connobst. canipples. What do you think is in a con canipal? Jesus. Butter cream? American butter cream? Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a rough off-stage situation. I think American butter

Chris. I love that Rob dared you to continue doing that and you did. I appreciate your commitment. Your con canyples must space the floor and include gelatin. Oh, okay. Too much. Too much. We went too far. Too much. That was good.

No. I was proud of that one. Anyway. So, Connoissell had 30 there against Miami. Pretty good. He did in the absence of our boy Lamello. He's our boy, I think we could all agree. In the extended absence of our other boy, Brandon Miller. Like, they needed a lot from him. And I think he acclimated himself pretty well to a level of usage and role that he hadn't been filling this season.

Well, let's start here, Kyle, because you had floated the idea during last draft cycle that Canipal could be potentially a point guard for Duke. I doubt he would be that at this level. But can a Miller canipple plus another. guy be enough as a time share if they were to ever trade lamella has he shown enough or is he starting to show enough it's only been 10 games we should mention in order to like perhaps assume that sort of wall we just said lamello is our guy and you're trying to trade him we're gonna trade him i shook my i mean con looks that good i think right i told you i was out after the six or shot i'm i'm taking a break this is ridiculous you got if you're gonna go with lamello be be a lamella boy you got to

sign up for all but you can't be wishy-washy um Yeah, Con, this was something that during the process, yeah, in the fall, I had been watching a lot of his tape coming up to that. Like, and I think it was even before the Champions Classic. It's like their first game. I had watched him operate with the ball in his hands enough to watch him use his weight in the mid range and play, you know, take a drink, playoff two feet thing that people have said over and over and over and over again. But he was really good at bumping and getting to his own shot. I'd seen him pass. Now, I'm not going to act like he's some technician who's the most manipulative. creative pass or ever.

He has limitation in terms of things that he can get to. But he feels the flow of the game in a way I think that is pretty, there's not a lot of

latency there. Like he's up to speed. He can hit shots. He also is just really good about knowing when to, when to move on and when to dribble the ball

and like seek something out. Like because he's, one of my favorite things about Khan is when he backscreens you, you feel it. Like he is, he really leans in, to using that. So he might dribble the ball and throw a lob. He might. He's just very invested in

small parts of the game. So you don't see wastefulness from him. But to answer your question, yeah, I mean, I think in a, in a, with a smaller slice of the pie taking maybe not full ownership like he did against Miami. I think he's absolutely capable of that. It's going to be bumpy for a while. But he's shown to me that he has kind of all the aspects going for it. Yeah, I think what makes him exciting is the idea that he could play different roles for a team at different phases of the game. Right. Like he's one of these guys. who could be a primary for a stretch with a bench unit, a secondary with someone like Lamello or whoever,

like he just could fit into a lot of different circumstances. And it's because of all that stuff, Kyle just laid out, like all of the little ways in which you make yourself more than just a shooter. And some of that is the screening, which not only does he lean into that, the hornets have really leaned into that and using him in that way. Some of it is like,

I found him to be a surprisingly competitive and physical rebounder, just like pulling the ball away from bigger, stronger guys who should be boxing him out but aren't. And so if you're bringing all these other things to the table, you can live with the ebbs and flows of who you are as a shooter and score. Although at this point, there are kind of all flows. Which is the good one?

Flows are the good one. Flow. Yeah. I mean, he's pure flow right now. Like the shot is looking really silky, really good. I think there's a lot to his all around game to recommend,

even that goes above and beyond all that. Yeah, so three straight 20 or more point games on the record here. All of those happen to be without lamella ball. Let's just put. that in the old notebook. But you're right. It's just like the intuitive play that just jumps out for him to

Kyle's point. Like he's very like compact, like just like very stout. And he knows how to just like use that to get a low center of gravity. Like there was a couple of plays where he like he tipped it away on Calell Ware, who is just all athleticism and just like a freak athlete. But Khan is just like smart and knows how to play the angles and the timing. And he did it again where he tied him up and like blocked them.

And so he's just. just like he's constantly making solid plays. He's not going to give you a lot of sizzle. There aren't going to be a lot of just like highlight plays for instance, but like in conjunction, Kyle, with someone like Miller, for instance, or what will perhaps come later, it just, it makes a lot of sense. He seems like he could just do a lot of different things and that type of player is going to be effective no matter how or where you put it. I think if you're going to lean into the sort of the ball zipping around, these guys can hit crazy dribble pull up stuff. These guys can rock it off of screens and make just really creative plays. I think it makes sense to have, if you have somebody getting someone

who has a high sort of baseline of skill the way that Con does. And I think Conn and Cockburner, I was talking to somebody, a buddy this weekend about those two guys, they just have a really high slugging percentage on unremarkable plays. Like they just set, like, Cockbrenner is even more boring than Khan, which we can get to. But that, that to me just makes the most sense. And yeah, there was a play it was offensively he got by davion which we know no small feet but at his body type was just interesting he he sold him sort of a head and shoulder fake with the three which obviously he hits them so in a transition i had it pulled up from three in transition he's almost at 47 percent so he's he's knocking them down uh and then he did like a long stride and just

shot just did one of those like where you don't even really push it you just kind of tear drop it off the high glass over Colele Ware. And I was like, at his stature and stuff like that, you just don't see a lot of guys who are able to do that. Like, it's not the most creative thing in the world. But on defense, though, I was going to say, he's a little more fleet of foot, I think, than he gets credit for. He's not a big gambler.

Like, you know, and if you wall into, if you run into him, he's solid, man. Yeah. It's, and it's only, he's only going to get stronger. Well, it's all an extension of what we've been talking about as far as, like, all of these seemingly relatively minor contributions that sum up into just playing good basketball. And it is frankly alarming to see people in a Charlotte Hornets jersey who do that. Like the whiplash from Tijon Salon to this in terms of just like readiness to play NBA

basketball is striking. Yeah, they got scared straight. Kind of like just draft people who could play. You know, like it's not a remarkable concept. I understand sometimes you want to take the big swing on the project and the potential, but sometimes you just pick the guy who can play. Well, Kulk Brenner, I guess fits that. currently shooting 81.3% from the field.

Seems good. Seems pretty good. Now, he has taken 48 total shots. How many of them are outside of the restricted circle? Not just outside of the paint, but outside of the restricted circle? Two, maybe? Five. Okay.

Yeah. So, yes, but outside of the paint itself, just three. So it's all catch ball, dunk ball. Yes. when you're that tall, it's effective. He does not even think about stepping outside his role, does not even consider the possibility. It has never occurred to him to do it.

There's institutionalized. There's something admirable about that, but also constraining it that clearly. Like who he could ultimately be, I have no idea, because we've barely seen him even attempt anything. But who he is right now, this sort of like low mistake, high efficiency sort of big,

who, yes, they're all coming from, restricted area. Some of them are spoon feds. Some of them are on the roll. A lot of them are on the offensive glass, which like that's a huge addition that he can bring to the game. If he's that active on the glass for the majority of his career, that's a big thing. But like, again, this is a team that needed some of that kind of stability at the five. They'll take anything to fill out the rotation minutes. And the fact that Calkburner's been able to fill them so reliably. I mean, that's, that's manna from heaven by Hornet standards. I think something for Calkbrenner and I think he learned this. Granted, he's older. He's almost, he's pushing 24 years old. So I think

when we compare him to, not that we're going to do it on this show, but like somebody like, come on, Malawi, who's a baby or just some of these younger players. It's like, I think Colchbrunner had a long time

to kind of learn in college how to just pick, like, pick his battles wisely. He doesn't, you were talking about going for everything the way Missy does. Call Grinner knows I'm gigantic,

which I don't think people realize just how big he. He's like 7-2 and change with plus four wingspan. So gigantic hands. He's really tall. He just knows. He's listed at seven.

I was watching him out there. I was like, this guy's like 7-4. He's a big old boy. Yeah. Maybe he's just like so lean that like he just seems taller as a result because he just looks like slender man or something. The beanpole effect. Is that what they call it? I don't know.

I just made it up. It is now. That was a copyright. No, I mean, with that barefooted, he was 7-1 at the combine. So he's at least that. So I think he just knows he's a big obstacle. And I think when you watch him, he's like, no. I mean, if you come in here, I'm just going to kind of, I'm not going to, like, jump and dive at your shot,

but you see him affect shots. Really, you just see him kind of compress the court up the lane. I mean, people get him. He's not the fastest guy in the world. People go around him. But he sort of turns what would be pain attempts into contested, you know, 10 to 15 foot attempts. And you see that repeatedly. And for a team like the Hornets, that's, my question for you all was like, early in the year, I think it was Bill and I were talking about it. I was like, well, ideally, you'd have him like in your rotation on like a good team. Do we think that Kalkbrenner is capable of being a starting level? Or is he a rotation level big on a like can you imagine him battling Hart and Stein and

Chet for seven games? A little tougher on that front. He's probably, yeah, but I'll toss it to you all on that. Yeah, because he's bigger than he is necessarily physical. Like he's not a bruiser per se. He is long and he is active. And yeah, like his mobility has its limitations in a way that I think would really rear their ugly head.

if you ask him to do way too much on a team that's actually competing for something. Maybe on a good team he's like, again, like a version of Cockburner down the line on a good team maybe is like Luke Cornett, right? Like filling that sort of role, coming off the bench, maybe spot starting while some other guy is injured for 15 games in the middle of the season. But ultimately, like this is who he is, right? Like we're seeing the parameters, we're seeing some of the constraints. I would like to see him round out and add some things.

But also, I don't know how realistic that is. I don't know where to forecast growth that. would allow him to be that kind of guy. Does he have to? That's what I would ask you. He doesn't. It was basically a free agency signing. That's what we were joking at the draft. I thought the Hawks might go for him. I was like, this is a free agent big that's going to play. Like, yeah. I could see Cockburner ultimately ending up as like the fourth big, so perhaps not being like a steady three-man rotation, but he is the guy you count on when you

just need what he provides, which is just rim protection and just the big old target. Yeah. It would be nice. On the rim protection front, like he is literally, second in the NBA in blocks right now. Yes. Yes. Very like real Walker Kessler type shit right now. And so like if he has that, if he has like a defined skill, he'll find a place for it. But otherwise you're like wondering when you get

diminished into a role and when you're coming off the bench, you kind of really need to pop in a certain area. And like if he doesn't have stretch, like we can't just turn to him to provide something. But if you can continue to protect the rim at this rate, like I think there's going to be a place for him on rosters for a while. Definitely. But we should talk about the last

guy on the vaunted Charlotte Hornet's rookie class another Duke guy Sion James Cion right Cion James yeah I'm never going to get that right Tell us about Cion Look I have a lot of respect for both of the guys we've talked about

Concan up or Ryan Cockburner Oh no interesting young players You got to drop a hammer This is my guy Cion James is unequivocally one of my guys Like I love watching him play And I get the sneaking suspicion based on his like

creeping minutes total that Charles Lee is having the same relationship with watching Seon James play that I am, which is you just come to the realization that the Hornets play their best basketball with him on the floor. Like the energy, the defense, the fact that he is making every goddamn shot he takes, which I don't know if that's a thing I can expect to continue, but it's happening right now. Another guy who just makes like good adult decisions on the floor. And I am locked into the Seon James experience as a like high effort defender who's taking on difficult assignments, who's contributing to the.

the flow of the offense and hitting all these shots. Like, what's not to like about a player like that? Yeah, this won't continue, but he is. In terms of the shot or which thing? Not overall the shot on, you don't think he's going to shoot 60% from three for the season? 64.7% on his spot up looks right now. No, I mean, if he has crazy, if he's open one, too, I mean, he can,

he can hit shots. Like, there's no doubt about it. He's the, he's the body type. I think I'm outing myself as sort of a like a soft, Benesse score. He's the body type that when they show up at the gym, I'm just like, oh, man. Like, he's just, he's the type that you just can't get away from. If he's involved in a play, he just, it's that Drew, like, fire hydrant just. Yeah, even big, like, wing slash tank is his official position, I would say. So he's a ball mover too. Yeah, like, yeah. Kyle's revealing is he's

not about that, that smoke, you know? He has a finesse. He is about that action. You came close to say it's something else, but yeah. No, no, he just seems like he'd be annoying just because if he's, for guys who want to get downhill, it's just you're just going to, you're not going to bounce off of him. You're going to hit him and just die because he's, he's got that kind of, he's got that kind of frame. And it's the same thing as Cockbrenner. I think they've just added, I kept saying, I kept using the word sanity. They just keep using these guys who don't have notions about who they are that need to be disabused, which I think in and of itself is this wastefulness is something that kills a lot of NBA careers because these guys, have ambition, which is, you know, great, you know, but to hang around in this job market, you just see guys like this emerge and Will Richard, who I'm sure will mention, at least in passing, another guy like that. But these are, these are adults to use the word again. Yeah, good job Hornets. Just hitting singles. Look at you. Maybe doubles. Could be doubles. Get MJ out of there. Before we get into the kind of the grab bag section,

I want to talk briefly about BJ Edgecom, who've talked about a couple pods already at this point, but he just keeps doing stuff. I have in my notes, mostly Dothraki war cries, because that's just all that he elicits from me. Like written out, like you wrote them out. That's like,

that's where that's right. Like, let's go in different capitalizations. Like, every time's a new one. That's a lot for you. Like, not a lot of players get that kind of reaction from Justin Verrier.

So I'm, I'm impressed. I'm intrigued. Especially outside of Portland. I mean, look at that. Yeah, unless you're Danny Avdiya, come on.

he wishes let me tell you you did bring it up you're right but do you guys have any other like newer notes on stuff he's doing I just keep waiting

for the shoot like not the other shoot at job but I'm waiting for the reality check on the shooting in particular and I know he's like he's maybe kind of hitting it now in a way where the threes

are finally starting to whiff but I just don't know what to expect from him in that particular regard because the version of the Sixers that has a Tyrese and a VJ Edgecombe who is a dynamite creator and a perimeter shooter

is dramatically different from the one who is just, you know, Tyrese Maxie and this great slasher next to him or Tyrese Maxie and this, you know, compelling score and creator who has these other holes in this game. Like that's kind of the thing I'm watching and the, like, his makes were so anchored early

and have kind of tapered off late, where I'm waiting to see what the regularized version of VJ looks like. Yeah, I mean, for me, For me watching him last year, I was like, this is a guy who if he's, I didn't know how dynamic a shooter he was going to be. And I didn't know how dynamic a handle he would have. And granted, it's just really hard. And it's something that you have to kind of do every year when you watch some of these guys. Just imagine them in better space.

And I feel like the looks that he's getting, the straight line drives. I think we're just seeing the highest, the strongest strengths in his bag really pop. Like we were talking about how he caught that ball off of attacking a close out. off of a catch. And he just did one of the nastier, like, euros where his body bent like a spring into the lane. And it was very Dwayne Wade-esque. And when he's doing those types of things in space, for me, I'm like, can he be much more than, than, like, just a simple attacker whenever he's operating in a ball screen? Is he going to be somebody that can really hold court and really orchestrate for, like, a whole possession? I don't know, but I also don't know that he necessarily has to.

The shooting, I'm kind of with you, Rob. I'm like, is it going to come back? I mean, he's at about 40% on spot ups. When he was shooting the ball well in Summer League, when he shot the ball really, really well, when he was shooting those like mid-range kind of coming off curls and things like that, I immediately just said to my,

because I ended up having him at five, and I was just like, shit. Like the one thing that I, because that was the wager, whenever we were talking about him. I'm like, is he going to be able to dribble and he's going to be able to shoot? I was like, I feel like he's probably in that supportive.

but I'm moving more in the direction of like it's on the table that he could become a star like for yeah and obviously not a hot take yeah he was isolating against brandon ingram and crunch time it was just like and he looked completely comfortable he just pulled up on him and just shot it over him it was a real like winner versus loser shit going on here because then brandon ingram was on the end of the court like smashing bottles because he fucked up a play and making like the attendance pick it up which was like complete horseshit and i thought we need yeah i was going to say that Are we embarrassing? I just don't.

I don't think an apology in private is acceptable in that situation. I don't want to hear that like, oh, he went to him and apologized, blah, blah, blah. You can't humiliate your team, like, you're someone, your coworker like that. Like that, like, it's over. Like, you shouldn't have done that. Like that, I was, I was really, really, really put off by that. All right. Let's go to kind of like notes and other stuff that we've been picking up here.

Should we start with Ace Bailey? Or I think, like, the fact that we haven't talked about him at this point is probably tells the tail there. Just like all the swagger from preseason just completely just disappeared. He looks lost out there. It almost feels like Kyle, they're like trying to

shoehorn him into a role perhaps and make him earn things by playing the right way and he just is like kind of stuck as a result. Yeah, I mean, that's going to be tough if you're really only about, I was watching the Algo suggested a Nick nurse clinic and I was it was not it wasn't too long I was I mean that algorithm's got you fucking

pegged let's like let me let me it was attacking switches and nick nurse just got talking about you know if you're if you're not going to do this if you're not going to do this he was basically like if you're not going to attack the rim if you're not going to be passing the ball if you're only going to be wanted to take these types of tough shots and I was like damn that sounds like he's failing and it was like from the summer where I was like oh is he just sort of revealing his inner you know monologue dialogue whatever it is about who they were going to pick. Ace is just really, he has a narrow sort of thing that he does. He's a shot maker and I thought when I was looking at this team,

I don't think that they're asking him to do more role-wise. I mean, maybe in terms of, because every time he dribbles the ball, something bad seems to happen. If anything, like Justin's saying, they're asking him to do less role-wise. Like they're kind of like all the three seasons. Yes. Like run a lot of off-ball action,

a lot of running through the curls in a way that like leans him less like shot maker and more just like average NBA shooter. Like it's weirdly leaning away from the things he was supposedly good at, which was already not the most versatile skill set. What is he not doing that we think he should be doing? I'm not even saying that. He's like, it seems like he's budding up against the structure that they're trying to instill

when it feels like he's at his best just like letting it rip. In terms of like creating for himself? Is that what we're saying? Like, because I just don't. Yeah, this is the conundrum. Like I just, Will he ever be good enough at that to justify doing it versus is it a worthy endeavor to try to slowly nudge him and mold him into being a different kind of player? I think it's worth it's worth the experiment.

Well, I mean, you could also look at this the other way where it's like, what did Utah expect when they reached in order to get him in there when they basically dragged him kicking and streaming to Utah? And also like they kind of buried him with all these guys. Like Utah is crazy where it's like some of the guys that they drafted more recently like Cody Williams and some of these. other guys probably aren't going to pan out, but they just have guys on top of guys on top of guys that at the very least need minutes in order to find themselves. And so Kessler goes down and it's a bummer, but at the same time, like, Bailey needs to play, you know? And like, so if you could find more minutes for him and allow him to butt up against the, like the fine structure of your offense, like, he needs to be able to adjust to that or plow through it and be like beyond it. And he needs

minutes to do that. And so, like, I can see it both ways, honestly. I guess it just depends on what kind of what kind of lab you want him to have because if you want him to do things where he has the ball and he's making decisions, I would just be like, all right, SLC stars is down the hall. Like it's not, it's going to be bad. I mean, unless they're, I don't, and I wouldn't want to put jazz fans do that again after what they'd lose in the lottery odds the way that they did. They got screwed this year. So granted, they're probably going to try to do it again anyway. I just, it's interesting because players. like this, even if they have the ambition to do more, I mean, we've seen with MPJ how well and how like a great, great player sort of implied a role for him that suited him best as a cutter as a, it's very, very similar. And then we, we, we see what happens whenever they do get the freedom that they're so, that they do so desperately want. MPJ got a little quieter about that over the years as the winds piled up, you know, and things like that. So did Justin's dear friend

Jeremy Grant, you know, like, it's hard out there. in the wilderness creating for yourself. And I was watching the Nets tonight, and we're getting a little taste of what MPJ with freedom looks like. And my man, yes, it's rough. So for me, he just needs to, they're going to have to try to find ways for him to create productivity. And like when he's active on the glass,

he looks amazing. Whenever he's like active as a cutter, getting easy baskets, things like that, that's where I think he needs to lean into to take some pressure off of the, are the shots going in? because I do think the shots are going to go in. He's a really talented shooter. There's lots of ways to do it.

Yeah, I mean, we were just laid out like 15 different things that Con Cniple is doing. Like, if you do three of those things as Ace Bailey, you're stabilizing your game in a really important way. But I'm glad you brought up MPJ, Kyle. Like, the visual similarity is also kind of striking just because of his size.

He's not quite as big as MPJ is, but the potential, he's huge. And the potential for a great contested three-point shooter is there. Hopefully, in a more of a spot-up, capacity, right? Like of kick and hitting tough shots against closeouts, that could be Ace Bailey. He's not hitting those shots right now.

I actually think there is something to commend him for in playing this role. And at least from the outside, doesn't seem to be making a terrible stink of any of it, like for a guy who has the ambitions that he does. Like, this situation could look and feel very differently. Right now it feels disappointing because

the shots aren't falling and his game feels limited. But it doesn't feel disappointing because he's in a, you know, active mutiny. Yeah. I just don't know what Utah expected. Like, we knew that he was as a guy who would want a starring opportunity. And if he is budding up against that, then like, that's what you're getting. And what we've seen thus far in the early returns. The minutes are minuscule relative to like what other guys are getting. It's like 20 on most nights. Sometimes he's in the teens. And so like he's not getting a full run. It's just like, I don't know what else Utah is

doing if not like allowing him opportunities to be the star, but also like focusing on the role. I think you could do both at once because the Rob's talking about like the size. Like he was up there against Nas Reed and like they look similar size like Johan Baranget. They're like pretty similar. Well that that game is the example of how you get him more burn and opportunity.

You lose to everyone by 30 like they did to the timber wolves. And then all of a sudden there's lots of shots for Ace Bailey. Yeah. All right. Who else do you guys want to hit here? We have to at least talk about Tray Johnson, right? I forget he's on. the court every time I watch the Wizards.

It's funny because I said that last season at times when he was at Texas where I'd be like, man, I'm just like, it's a similar kind of thing with Ace at times where it's like, Trey is a similar kind of talented shotmaker the same way Ace is. I would say Trey is probably a little more dynamic than Ace, but yeah, when it's the same kind of thing where if he's not, if he's not making shots or doing that you do, you can forget that he's out here. Granted, I mean, the wizards also have a lot of talented wings kind of clustered in a little group there. They really do.

I mean, the one thing that gives me reason for optimism with Trey is that when he does catch the ball, when it swings to him, his only thought is not shoot. Like, he is trying to read for the best scoring opportunity in a way that I think it leans out of shooter and into score in a way that is a little bit more all around that I think that gives you something to build on. but he's not a playmaker. He's not going to be a rebounder. He's not going to, like he doesn't show really much aptitude for defense right now. Maybe that will change down the line.

And so it's like if you aren't, if you aren't hitting, it is incredibly limiting to your game. I just hope he gets to that sort of all around score or level, even if it's in more of an off ball cutting and moving kind of capacity that gives him something to work with because right now it, it's nice when the shots fall.

It's fine enough. It's not an outright disaster. It just feels. feels a little hollow. He seems bored out there a lot of the times. And so I worry, like, if his future lies in being an offball movement guy and those guys are running just like basically marathons in a given game, like he needs to be more active about it because it just seems like he's floating out there a lot of the times. That's exactly what I was going to say is that he's got to just become one of these cardy, like he's got to become one of these Iron Man and lean into that

because I think that's the most, I think that is the simple trade that he could build his career on and then just stack things on top of that because he's shown little flourishes of getting off the ball. He started to show those things at Texas towards the end of the year. The thing is, like,

he would get really frustrated at Texas and just clap for the ball, like every time down. I don't know if, I don't know if Rob watched his Texas Longhorns. I try not to watch Longhorns basketball as much as possible. Well, he would just clap for the ball because on that team, him shooting every single time, there was a decent argument for that. With the Wizards, it's kind of like there are,

that we're starting to see, it's a fledgling sort of identity. You know, it's still a ways away. But yeah, to me, that absolutely is what he should be doing, is leaning into that lifestyle and not be like, okay, I'll eventually be like a pick and roll guy. It's like, no, I think the thing that you could really trade on is, is that because he's not a crazy, he's not a crazy,

he's not a crazy getting into the lane. and the passing and all that stuff. I just, I would lean more towards that if I were him. I love that concept of like an endurance specialist. Like there really is a lane for that kind of skill set if you are willing to put in the work to do it. Historically, lots of guys think they're about that particular life and then go work out with stuff one time and throw up in a trash can.

So we'll see what Trey wants to do with his career. And if ultimately that's a path that's interesting to him. Yeah, it's hard for him right now to clap for the ball because Cam Whitmore is too busy going one on four every single time out there. He's hilarious to watch. Damn! But it does feel like

Cam Woodmore has been told, like, if you get a rebound, you can do whatever the fuck you want with it. Who told him that? I don't know. Somebody did. It came out that Cam Whitmore had been playing with like noise cancelling earbuds or something. I was 100% believe it.

Cam Whitmore has pioneered technology that allows him to wear an AirPods during a game. Yes. When we flip now to the defense of specialists. Call Murray Boyles. We got to talk about him, right? He jumps off the page in some of these games lately.

You said it like you had like wine in your mouth. When you go, Colin Murray Burr. Thank you, sir. Rob, what do you got to say about Colin Murray Boyles? I mean, I'm curious. I've said a lot. You go. I'm delighted, frankly.

I'm glad to see him out there. You know, like for everything that is starting to turn right for the Raptors, and I think there are a team that's starting to figure it out. I think their offenses coalescing a little better than their defenses at this particular point at time. Minus us calling Brandon Ingram a loser basically. I remain not a fan. I'm sorry.

I don't know what to tell you. But I really love what Colin Murray-Boy Boyles does defensively. The activity, like the hands. Again, it's just that you can tell when these guys are plugged into the instincts of how to play on one side of the ball or the other, and he just gets it. Like, he just has a natural template for how to affect the ball and affect possessions

in a way that not a lot of guys, do, certainly not a lot of young players too. Someone posed the question to me this weekend. Who is the Raptor's highest basketball IQ player? Garrett Temple. Look at us. Among the guys who are in the rotation,

I think it might be calling Burr-Boils. I really do. Granted, I was very high on his basketball IQ in general. Scotty's been really good. He's had a really good season overall, I would say. And the shots coming back. The shots coming back for sure. And yes, If we're talking about, like, defense and offense cohesively, there are times where Scotty Barnes is a great defender and there are times where he's like a little absent and bridging the gap is a huge thing for him.

Now, wait, don't take what I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm not saying it's a team of dummies. I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying C&B is, uh, also the detonator's just not taken off. I thought it was a good name. Can we just can you guys try to pilot this last year? Judge your can, I mean, can you all be the court here and be honest. Can you be a. friend to me and be honest. I mean, is it, is it bad? Because he just, it's not, he, it's not catchy. It's not bad. It just doesn't work. I think it works because he blows shit up. That was my argument. Basic argument. He blows, plays up. He's, he's a very, you know, similar to see. What you're trying to do is, you're trying to pilot a nickname, but also introduce a concept. The concept has to exist, and you need to pyramid on that with a nice, catchy punt. Yeah. Like, for instance, I suggested that his nickname should be

choncasaurus because he's a chonkis-a-boy. That's just not even, you know, you know, You should jump off a bridge. If you look at him, he's a chonker, which is fine. He's not, though. Differently, he is not a chunky guy. Established. Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute.

I say the detonator with a clear, to me, I think that sounds like an action movie, and I'm like, here's why. Justin hits me back with yours doesn't work. How about the chancosaurus? It's awful. Oh, we call this professional athlete kind of fat. One of the worst things you've ever done, Justin introduces this nickname. he's a stout boy look he is stout in a way but I wouldn't call him chunky

he's thick what is this chunky is I don't know I've never even heard people say chunky what do you like a cutey version of chunky yeah yeah Justin is nothing if not cutesy you all went to better schools than me I don't know this is that that's not they weren't teaching that one in the schools I can assure you but it's also twofold because not only the body type that we've established here but also like he's the raptor oh I know you're with that well yeah I was going Raptor, yeah. I don't think any of this works.

And Bede was like backing down someone. Like, he smelt chum in the water right after him and just kind of like ripped it from him. And I know Embed's in a different state of his career. He's barely moving at this point. But like, he's going after him. He demoralizes people.

I mean, when he, when he gets his hand on the ball, it is his. I mean, he's like one of those. He's got that, I mean, Kauai's the master, obviously the highest version of that. But it's just, he's got those just vice hands.

Some of those dudes have that when they get, when they get in, in a scrum for the ball. It's like, Cal Murray Wilson is probably coming out with it. And he's a really good pass. He's just a little undersized, like figuring out how to score and things like that.

But, man, offense is brutal. It's tough. It's going to be, like, he's got to find something in the feel, right, like just digging up random points

from being in the flow of things. But it's clear he's not, like, quite as plugged into the rhythms of the game on that. And that's okay. Like, he can, he'll make those good passes you're talking about. He will make good effort plays. It's just going to be a more natural defensive game for him.

And the good news is he feels like one of those sort of like Rosetta Stone, I can kind of guard anybody sort of defenders. Like anyone you need me to over the course of this possession, I can handle it. And that's a really exciting place for a young player to be. Yeah, he was so good defensively that they left him out there for crunch time against the Sixers. But the flip side of that is they had to go offensive defense because his offense, he's punt in at this point.

And that's the problem with the Raptors overall. There isn't like a natural fit for him to be that small ball. like Draymond type of five because the shooting just isn't there to support it. Like the Raptors offense has been good thus far, we should mention. But like I do think there is a trade off there. When you start like changing up like sort of the rotation, who goes where, then it could fall apart pretty easy. We'll see.

Anybody else you guys want to hear any sleepers? Any just like notes on other first round guys? I mean, the Nets drafted five rookies and then barely play any of them. They're not even on the big league club, most of them. At least they're going back and forth. Just living in Long Island at this point. I don't get it. I don't know.

Is, are the Zaire Williams minutes that sacred? Like, will your franchise fall apart if you don't play Jalen Wilson? Like, is that a thing that you're worried about? If you have a certain non-winning agenda, I could see how they would be sacred. But wouldn't the non-winning agenda also be served by like force-feeding Drake Powell, whatever it is, he needs to grow up and be a big, strong NBA pro? You can't risk him being good. We got to keep talking.

God forbid. Did play 23 minutes a night. Okay, that's good. That's a start. He's getting some run. My defense of the Nets was always like, what were they going to do with this season anyway? But you're right. Like, for that reason, why aren't these guys just playing against NBA competition?

They don't even have Camp Thomas anymore. Like, any, any baked in excuse to not play the rookies is gone. Yeager was averaging going into tonight's game one shot inside a game inside the arc, which is insane. I just, it's a weird team. There's also a lot of Nick Claxton happening. Like there's a lot of like, we're just going to trust Nick Claxton to make plays and bring the ball up. And look,

I understand why every big in the world wants to do that stuff. It's fun to do it. But where is it taking you when you're actually invested in the like supposed development of someone like Yegor Jomon who is one of the ball handlers, but like barely one of the ball handlers? No clowny still like three years away. Yeah. And still only like 20 years old.

I actually kind of like the Noah Clowny minutes. You know what? I'm encouraged. I'm gently encouraged by what Noah Clowny has shown us. Yeah. Yeager is a super, super talented, like creator and decision maker. The scoring pressure isn't there. And that's the sad thing you see sometimes with some of these guys who can really,

really pass it is that if you can't create that tension, we just, we never, we never get to see it. But I, his shot, the optics of it looks fine. Like, you know what I mean? I could see him getting, it's not broken to the point where, you know, I think he can be just absolutely ignored. I don't know, man. It's like, what do you do with a great decision maker on a team that won't give him the ball and doesn't have any kind of identity? It's just, it's being wasted. So it's hard to make any sense of the nets. And maybe they won it that way. I don't know. Well, I guess if a lottery pick misses a bunch of threes and there's no one there to hear it, like does it really make a sound? I don't know. what of life's great questions, Justin? I was going to say Will Richards the only other one that I think is, you know, if Will Richard is the kid in class who, you know, the teacher is like, hey, this kid is an exam, like just trying to get the other students to work harder. You know, it's just like, man, he's just got a lot of energy out there.

I mean, in transition, he's just kind of talking about carving. Granted, he's in a way different situation than ACE, but just finding a small thing and buying in and really, he's a guy who older rookie came in, came off national championship of Florida. He's just doing the things and making threes, making threes and running in transition. And I was going to say,

who do you all think that was that aimed at Moody or was that aimed at Fijimski? Who do you think that mandate from, or that warning from Kerr? Oh, I didn't even see this warning. Well, he basically used Richard as a, as sort of a fall in line kind of a thing, because no one's minutes are safe

because Richard's coming for your ass. basically. I don't know. Ben Cruz, our producer says it was Pajemski, which makes sense because Kerr is always throwing him under the bus. It's just a constant tension point within the Warriors of like what is going on between Steve Kerr and Brandon Pajum. Like you can see it on the court in terms of the way he's used and deployed. Like it never quite tracks. Uh, but Will Richard is such a Steve Kerr player and like such a natural fit for this team. And it is, it's frankly amazing that they were able to kind of dig him up and throw him in here. And it's worked out so perfectly.

I think the effort thing is what stands out, and that's not just a Pajemski issue. Like, there is a kind of more pervasive Warriors thing happening where these guys are like maybe sleepwalking a little bit more than they should, maybe resting on some of the laurels of knowing how talented and good they are and not taking every possession with the intensity and the urgency that it may require, even in the regular season. Well, Richard does not have that problem. So I understand Steve Kerr throwing him on the poster and pointing him out as the best child

in class. fun class I'm excited to keep tracking these guys we'll do this again probably in another mother tune just to check in that's it for for these chunky boys here see you can call us that

that's fine chunky it's just it's a term the kids are saying it the kids are not saying it the kids are saying what's the last time you were around the kids Justin answer don't answer that answer into this

answer into this corsage That is not a tape recorder. Yeah, when was the last time? That's it for us. Officer. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia.

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