The Ringer NBA Show - Russell Westbrook and the Lakers at a Crossroads | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 20, 2022

We’re halfway through the season and the Lakers are the gift that keeps on giving. Logan and Raja talk about the rumors that Frank Vogel’s job is in jeopardy, the Russell Westbrook experiment, and much more. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Juliet Littman. And I am Joe House. Welcome to Ringer Food, the ringer's new hub for all your food-related content. You may have known this feed as House of Carbs, and don't worry, that's not totally going away. We will be launching two new shows on the feed, and the first is food news with me and David Chacobi. You may remember us from our days at Grantland while Jacoby and I are back to go over the news, sample snacks, share some personal tales of food news, some global tales of food news. knows what else is to come. And House, what are you going to be doing? Oh, my taste buds, my hungry homies, my culinary comrades. We are back. We've done it here to tell you that we are

reigniting House of Carms with a whole new slate of tasty episodes throughout the year. We are starting with a football fracas, a gridiron gobble fest. We're doing NFL playoff potluck featuring taste tests of the iconic food item or items of every playoff city to determine which city reigns supreme. Ringer Food is starting up this Wednesday, January 12th. That's so soon. So be sure to subscribe on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Roger, listen, man, you know, this is one of those pods where I didn't know.

you don't know what we're going to talk about. You try to plan a couple days in advance, you know, what the agenda is. And then, you know, something, the gift just keeps on giving. So you know what we're going to do today, Roger? We're going to skip the small talk. Might save that for later.

We'll get right to the shit. Let's get to the Los Angeles Lakers, man. Let's just get right to it. There's no, there's nothing else in the NBA that's as important as what we need to talk about right now, which is the Lakers who fumble bags, fumble leads, might be fumbling coaches.

You know, they might, they, they, they fumble rosters. Here we are, man. After they lose to the Indiana Pacers, a game they were winning, by the way, by double digits in the second, in the second quarter, they bench Russ. Frank Vogel is probably, I don't know, he's probably out of a job at some point.

LeBron is, is playing center. We don't know what's going to, what the hell do you make of this situation, Roger? Like, what's, what's going on? Talk to me, man. Talk to the people. It's a mess. The Lakers are a mess. I always have to just be careful with having the knee jerk to the mess because they are missing Anthony Davis,

and I want to be fair to them. So a big part, or at least a size, yeah, a big part of their mess is missing, you know, their second best player. That's going to happen to a lot of teams. So offensively, you know, there might be a lack of, fluidity. You know, I would even give you to a degree some defensive slippage, you know, because he's such a great defender, but it's not going to change what's going on there to the point where I could

tell you it would win a championship or even be a threat in the playoffs. There's just too much going wrong. The defensive slippage is one thing. Like if you don't have that Swiss Army knife of a defender, that rim presence, like, you know, those things. But it's not that. It's lack of effort. it's lack of execution game plan wise.

It's general lack of interest on the defense event. Anthony Davis doesn't make all that up. That's not an Anthony Davis problem. Offensively and generally around their team, there seems to be a funk. We talk about they were winning the game last night and they just have this inevitable funk that they're going to run into at some point in the game

that puts either them in jeopardy of losing to bad teams or they wind up eking one out or losing the game, right? Like it's never like, you know, the Lakers just handle their business. It's always like, oh, shit, they're about to lose. They're going to lose the Sacramento. You know, it's always like that. There's a funk around them. You could feel it.

It pops off the screen at you. Anthony Davis is not going to help with that. No. So while on one hand, I'm telling you AD missing, you know, is part of the issue. It isn't the overall issue. The overall issue is they got a problem in-house. There are some chemistry issues there, whether it be played. to player, coach to player, management to player, management to coach.

There are bigger things going on with the Lakers. That is a mess. Now, one of the things that I've seen with the Lakers over the years, I'd say like the last three years when they've been good again, you know, ever since they got LeBron and Anthony Davis, it always seems like this with LeBron teams. And we can point to the buddy healed, Guida Cuda and coulda Shida and the Russell Westbrook trade. We can point to, you know, not get, you know, the turnover on the roster.

We could point to a lot of different things. But one thing that I always see with LeBron-led teams is the first year is a feeling-out year between the coaching staff, you know. Second year is, you know, they might get it done, maybe two, three years, right? This is, this is, I'm setting this up because you've been a part of one of those years in Cleveland, but it always seems like there's a gradual effect. whenever a LeBron is on a team. And I don't want to blame too much of LeBron because he has such a big ecosystem. And every time he's on a roster, you want to win a title.

And you have a chance to win a title. But this seems like the natural evolution every single time he gets onto a roster because the pressure is so packed. And when you have pressure like a LeBron provides, that's when you start making these trades that don't necessarily make sense on paper. when you start making these signings that don't necessarily jive what's your greater goal is, which is to stay in success long after LeBron is gone, right? And you see this how when he leaves, you have to pick up those pieces because there's so

much pressure that you have to just put everything out on the line. Now, my question to you is, how do the Lakers do this when LeBron is in his 19th season, right? Because it's one thing to do this when he's in his eighth or ninth season. But how do you make sure that he's on board and make sure not only is he on board, but the rest of the team is on board without making such drastic changes that we're feeling like we're going to have to make right now with the Lakers? I don't have the answer to that, Logan. That's why I'm not sitting in someone's front office right now getting paid a couple million dollars to do the job. It's an impossible position for a general manager.

it is the gift and the curse. The gift is LeBron. I mean, he's as admittedly, I'm as a big a fan as they're out there, as there is out there. I've watched him do things and flip switches and drag teams to places from the time he was, you know, a rookie to now. He's doing it right now. Like he's willing that team to the wins that they have.

He's willing, like what he did last night, man. You see the donkey had coming from the right corner on the lobby, he like froze midair and then threw it down backwards? He shouldn't be doing that in the year that he's in the league. So he's the gift, but you just alluded to the pressure that comes with the people making the decisions when you have him. Because it's all in right now. You have got him for his window. And then the team and the franchise's window is right now.

And most GMs when put, when their feet are put to the fire and you have to gamble on the future and protecting it or trying to win that. chip right now because it's that tangible. And the Lakers did do it. Like they won one. You know what I mean? Like they got a chip. That's what it's all about. Most general managers. You don't forget that, right? You do. But you're going to take that swing. And in years past, the window was open, you know, it was a larger opening of a window because he had more tread on the tire than he does now. And so you say, hey, man, I'm going to push David Griffin. We're pushing chips in for a four year run. You know what I mean? Like we got four good years of LeBron left in the tail end of his prime. And, and that's what we're to do. But the Lakers caught him on the tail end of it. While he's still great, I mean,

look, Father Time is undefeated. Like, it's coming. And the ability for him singularly to will you, you know, to a championship, those days, I think, are, are done. Now, he needs, he could win the chip with a, with, you know, the baton being semi-passed to like the ADs. And we talk about this all the time. Like, LeBron's still able. But he just can't. You ain't just going to strap it on, you know, to his back every night and say, drag us, you know, to a, to a finals. Like the league is younger. Players are better. He's older.

He's still brilliant. But you need that supporting cast around him now in a way that is, that is more, you know, important than it was. And so I don't have the answer as to how you navigate this if you're the Lakers. Moving on from from some of the pieces that you have outside of Russ, you know, I'm namely AD or LeBron. push came to shove, and I'm not saying that's now when I'm saying, if push came to shove, having to do that is an impossible thing to do. Yeah. So I don't know.

I don't know. But I do know this. Without major shakeups and major roster overhauls, they're in a bad spot. A.D. LeBron, yes. Everything else around that, no. All right. Well, I was going to, I had this on the notes to save this to the last, but you said rosters.

So I have to bring up, I have to bring up some slander here. I don't want you to hang up on I don't want you to hang up on the call right now please do not hang up on the call I know you are looking at it that leads me to one Russell Westbrook right when you talk about roster turnover when you think about it

when you look at the overall roster fair or not Russell Westbrook and his shooting woes have been a catalyst for this for this I wouldn't say losing streak but this season in general where

it's funny how Russ because we love him so much. He's so polarizing. Even on a team with LeBron and on a team with Anthony Davis, he is seemingly the focal point. And I don't mean by on the offense, I don't mean by on defense.

But it seems like the team lives or dies by whether Russ is having a good game or not having a good game, right? If he's having a great game, they can come from behind, they can pull out a game down the stretch. And they need a lot of games down the stretch just specifically,

they have a lot of close games just for the sheer roster that they have. have. They have a lot of close games. I see games like against San Antonio earlier in the season, for instance, where Russ is just a beast, man. He's dunking on dudes. He's, he's down the stretch. He's just bawling. Or the game against Utah, where he just dunked all over Rudy O'Barre. I know you love that one, Roger. That's why, that's why we watch the game. But you also see

you also see games like Indiana, where, you know, he doesn't play well enough to stay in the game. And he gets pulled by Frank Vogel. Now, that is, I don't know what you do with Russ because, you know, I'm reading David Miniman piece this morning on ESPN, where he's talking, where he's writing how, I think he talked to Carmelo Anthony. And Carmelo alluded to, you know, Russ's head having to be on straight at all times and having to, you know, Russ is a very up and down player because, you know,

I was watching his documentary. sometimes has an up and out personality because he cares so much, right? I don't know what you do with Russ. What do you do with Russ? Yeah, contractually, man, like, I don't know what you do with Russ. I don't. I haven't dug into the numbers or anything like that. I don't know where Russ could go at this point after what's unfolded with the Lakers.

I don't know who's making a move for Russ right now that would think that that's a help. Once it's an expiring deal, like becomes different, I guess. You know what I mean? But like right now, I don't know who says, hey, that can help us. Yeah. And again, anyone who listens to this, you know my affinity for Russ. Like, I allow no Russ slander on the pod until today because it's just, it's not working. It doesn't look good.

I don't even know if it's slander, though, Roger. I think it's just sad. It's just facts. It's just sad, dude. It is. Because we both. And also I'm looking at his contract. He has a player option for next season.

And he's going to take that. Like, he's going to take that. But it's just sad, man. Like, we both want it. We, we're talking about this, and it seems like a somber tone because we pick the Lakers to win the title. Here's Russ in a nutshell, like for right now. You look at Russ's numbers.

Sure, they're fractionally down. They are, right? But I'm talking about like 43% from the field and 43.3 last year he was 43.9. You know, two years ago, he was 47, but the year before that, he was at 42.8. Like, that's not that far out of the ballpark for what he normally does.

Do you understand what I'm saying? His points are down for sure, but, you know, anyone cast in a new role is going to, going to, like, struggle a little bit. It happens, it happens, you know, if you go to a new team, let's say, and it's not the same offense, and you're not getting the same amount of looks.

It's a struggle. I left Phoenix when I wasn't nearly the player like that these guys are, but I had a certain role. I was comfortable in it. I knew what I was going to do. And you go to Charlotte and that just, it changes on you, midstream.

And you're like, oh, shit, how do I figure out how to be productive in this? Everything. My whole world's changed. And so I want to give him a little bit of slack because it's not like he's like falling off the clip. He's doing what he normally does.

Oh, you know, and he's just like not a, he's not a very efficient, you know, offensive player, right? And this isn't me apologizing for him. I'm just saying what it is. So, like, it doesn't work with the Lakers. Like, the Lakers don't need that. That's a mess.

I would say, though, like, you know, I watch his demeanor out there sometimes. And I watch, you know, his general body language out there. And he doesn't look locked in defensively. He looks like he's playing with a bad. chip on his shoulder, not the chip on his shoulder that, like, propelled him to, like, you know, winning games that he had no business winning or doing anything like that, but a chip on his shoulder like, like, yeah, I know y'all think I'm the reason.

And so fuck y'all. And this is the way I'm out here. Like, you know, letting people go buy him and shit. How do you coach that like with your kids, though? Like, how do you know when you're like, I don't know how to, how do you mitigate that as a teammate? You know what I say to my kids? I say this over and over again to my children and children that play for me.

Nobody feels sorry for you. So like that funk that you're in, that look on your face, because Russ has been in a funk. Nah, you can keep it and you can keep acting like that and you could keep being, oh, woe is me and all of that. But nobody cares. So the question is when are you going to snap out of it? It's funny because I see this with Russ too

because he's had comments. Like every time someone's asked about it and, you know, we love this about Russ, but at a certain point, like he's 30-something years old, he's older in his career. He's a Hall of Fame player, bro. You're one of the top. 75 players of all time. We know.

But I see these quotes from him, and it's like, like, just very defiant. Just, yeah, I don't need, I don't need to do nothing. No, I'm good. I don't need to,

I'm fine. I'm gonna figure it out. And like, to a certain point, it's just like, are you? Because we want to see you do that, but you keep,

you keep standing out in the corner. And I don't know to hold, I don't know if that's what he's told to do or if that's what he feels like he should do. But I just see him playing the same game that he's been playing. He doesn't, you know, maybe there's an occasional cut to the basket or something like that, but he's, by and large, these threes that are clearly not going to go in.

And then I hear, I see in the post game conference, either he's, you know, leaving the scrum before media gets there or when the media comes, he's competent towards the media. Like, I don't know. I just feel like for better or worse, the Lakers and Russ are kind of tied together. So they kind of, they should figure it out because he's. not he's not going anywhere. There's, you can't trade him for anybody.

Well, no, you can't. Like, I was, and the next point I was going to make was, I don't, I don't know.

Like, I have to go down and look at it. Like, if there's some borderline, getting into the playing game type of team that just doesn't have the juice. And they want to try to get in the playoff. But it, like,

that's just me looking for anything. But they're not trading for him. They're not. They're not. But that would, like, you know, it had to be some scenario where they're bad.

They don't have a, dude, Russ can come in and just do Russ and just try to will him to win some games. Like, it's not going to happen. It can be a ringer for a team. Well done, sir. No, but I mean, just looking at it, I think that Russ has fell into the,

the, he's fallen into like reading and listening and caring too much about the noise outside of our team. And I think he's lost at least some of what made me a huge fan of his, which was just relentlessness. You know, whenever you've heard me speak about Russ, you know, people could say he's inefficient this and that. But what I talk about is the, is the energy, like the, the teammate that he looks like, the type of dude that, you know, I can trust when I look over my shoulder every night that whatever is required, he's going to get down and do it, right? Like maybe that's not

scoring 30. Maybe it's not taking the last shot, but, bro, I need you to lock that up. And if you can do that, we win the game. And Brody looking at me and saying, yes, sir, that's a bet. I already know. And we get it and we go and we ride. And I don't see that out of him as a teammate. Now, I'm not in that locker room. I'm not saying he's a bad teammate.

But I think the noise that is the Lakers that is playing in that market that is playing with LeBron has affected him. And it's distracted him from the essence of who he is as a dude. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, hey, man, we know you're fucking inefficient. Like, or inefficient. We know, you know, we know there are going to be these periods of turnovers and all of that. Now, yeah, that's not, the Lakers aren't really built to withstand all of that right now.

But the point is we know make up for that shit. Like, and he usually in his past, make up for it. But yes, that's what we want to see. We want to see you fucking, fucking cup. I don't know, man. We want you to, we want you to, oh, I think the biggest thing is we were us to always overcome and he lets us down. You know, we kind of want him to like not be above this noise and things like that. but it's kind of disappointing when he soaks into the noise after he defiantly says he doesn't give a fuck about us.

Then don't give a fuck about us as the media. Don't give a fuck about us. Dunk on everyone. Score 50. We want to see that Russ. We don't want to see, oh, man, I'm soaking. I'm doing all these stuff. Oh, no, Russ.

We want to see you ball. That's really what we want to see. Well, we do, but it's not going to be scoring 50 on that team. Like you're going to, and here's the other point. No, no, but I hear what you're saying. And the other point about it is, in fairness to the brother. Like, that's a lot of change for him.

Yeah. That's a lot of change. He's played a certain way for an entire career. And since KD. left, you know, has basically had the ball in his hands, allowed to affect the game in the way he wants. I mean, he had to share it with Bradley a little bit, but you understand what I'm saying. And so, you know, I'm not making excuses because I just said, like, it's not working, you know, you got to do what you got to do.

But that is a hard thing to do, man. It is a really hard thing to do. Some can, some can't. Figure it out on the fly that late in your career and reinvent yourself. Shit, Carmelo, Carmelo had to be out of the league for a few years. Yeah. To figure out, oh, shit, I got to reinvent myself and become this kind of player. Like, I don't think he deserved to be out of the league,

but I think part of the problem at the time was when he'd go into places, he wasn't ready to be a different piece in the puzzle. He wanted to be the old piece in the puzzle. And it took him a minute to say, oh shit, I'm not that piece in the puzzle anymore. I'm a different piece. And that's not an easy thing to do, especially when you've been that great a player for your whole career.

Frank Vogel. I think that's the biggest conundrum right now based in the Lakers because I don't think that Frank Vogel has done a bad job on the Lakers. I feel like I don't think he's done a bad job considering the circumstances, man. I just, I'm sorry. I just don't. I just feel like this is just the general cycle on a look and that goes back to my first point of a lebron led team where he doesn't fully commit to a coach or anyone for that matter anyone can get traded anyone can get fired you even saw in the beginning before bogel got hired the reason why he got hired is because they wouldn't fully commit to tie lou past a certain amount of years and then after um after frank vogel wins a title with this roster they give him a one year extension like here

you go. Thank you. You know? Yeah. So when you're coaching for your job after winning a title, there is no way that you can be at the best of your abilities when you're not settled. I don't know what to do here, though. Well, I mean, I imagine Franco Vogel gets fired soon. Do I think he deserves to be fired soon? Not necessarily. I'm not saying that at all.

This isn't a, this isn't a solely player in Russ A.D. LeBron problem. This isn't solely a front office issue and this isn't solely a Frank Vogel issue, right? To get this type of funk that I'm talking about, all parties have some culpability in that. Everyone's responsible in some way or another and they chip in to this funkiness, right? So Vogel was handed a roster this year that just wasn't going to jive with the way he liked the hoop. I mean, he's a defensive-minded coach. And you gave him a bunch of pieces. You know, at least, yeah, older pieces that don't really strap up. They're one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Now, some of that is on the pieces. Like, that's not Frank Vogel's far. But he's got to have some responsibility for that, right? Like, they're really bad defensively. Getting guys to buy in and keeping them, like, fighting for you is a really important trait as a coach. And if you've lost the ability to do that, then whether it's your fault, you know, completely or not, you're probably going to have to go. But he wasn't handed, you know, a team that at least from a roster standpoint

fit with what he wanted to do in the way they wanted to play. I had no problem like, this goes back to Russ with him doing what he did last night and saying to the media, hey man, I played who gave us the best chance to win. Because if I'm going to go down and if I see the writing on the wall and I'm reading you know, the press and listening. I'm going down, giving myself the best chance. And with the pieces that I think can help me, I'm not worried about the pieces that you brought in here

that you may think as a general manager need to play, like, I'm going to try to win it with what I think can win it. And if you fire me at that point, then you're just going to, you know, you fire me, but I'm trying to win it. See, I think this goes back to the overall point about being in a, it's funny because LeBron is a one-man market, right? You know, like wherever he goes, it's like an L.A. It's like a New York because that's how good he is.

That's how transcendent of a talent he is. But what kind of coach do you need and what kind of organization do you need to make sure all the pieces of line and make sure that it's, I wouldn't say smooth sailing, but as smooth as sailing as you're going to get. Because I look at a situation like Miami where, you know, LeBron starts to do this stuff that he does, he's doing right now. And you got a Pat Riley that's like, hey, bro, chill out. That's your coach. Like, that's what it's going to be. And I think that if I think if there was ever a time for LeBron to have that or need that, it's right now.

Because I juxtaposed that in Milwaukee with a guy like Boudinthoser and Janus. So obviously different circumstances because Milwaukee is a way smaller market. You know, we don't pay much attention to this. them as good as they are. And I see a guy like Budenhouser who we've been, not we, but, you know, they've been putting his feet to the fire for a long time saying he should be fired. He should be gone. Why are they need a better coach for him? But the buck stuck it out and got a title out of it. You know, that that's what ended up happening. Why can't that ever happen with a LeBron team? Why can't there be continuity? Why can't there be these things? Why? I'm asking you because you were in

the front office when that, why can't that be that way for LeBron? Again, I want to be, I want to be measured with my words because I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this, but I don't know that that's ultimately what he desires. Because there is continuity in Miami. There's expectations. There are rules in place. There are things we will and we will not do. They're not in the habit of capitulating to like players demands and so on and so forth. And I wasn't in Miami, but I heard, you know, some of the beefs were that some of those demands weren't being met by the organization.

And, you know, ultimately LeBron and them wanted out. And but I would say this, organizationally, they've been fine. Like they're right back. They're one of the best teams in the East. Everyone knows what you're going to get when you come in there. There's a culture established and they keep playing and they keep hooping and they keep keep winning. I would say the reason is because most teams realize that when he comes in, that they have an opportunity again to win this championship because he's going to bring that

and he's going to bring the opportunity. And to keep him happy, you have to make the decision on whether or not you have the firm hand and say, hey, we have a culture in place and we're going to do it this way and you, you know, and run the risk of him saying, yeah, I'm only here for his contract and amount or kind of seed some of your your your your values um in an effort to kind of appease him and make him happy and allow things to run a certain way but then you then you wind up in a situation where you don't have the control that you that you that you need to have to be able to rein it in and say hey this is what we're doing and we're keeping this coach and we got to figure it out you don't because you know early on in that relationship you know you didn't establish

you didn't establish those parameters. Like you didn't establish what this relationship was going to be like. And so that's what happens with LeBron. And I want to be fair to him because I'm not saying he's in that. He doesn't go. I haven't seen LeBron going there and act like an Aho in somebody's office and demand this thing. And it's not like that. But like, you know, there's small things that start to, you know, I need this done.

I need that done. I need this done. And, you know, all along people are just checking to see what you do. Those are just little litmus tests to see how far, you know, can go. How far can I push? And if you continue to allow it to happen, you wind up in a situation sometimes, and not just with LeBron, this is with anyone. This is with any, any player, any person you're in a relationship with. Like if you're not going to, you know, if you don't say, hey, nope, nope, nope, not doing that. Knock, nope, that's not going to happen. This is where we're going to put the foot down. And,

you know, just so you know, this is not how I get down. If you can live with that, good. If you can't, then maybe we need a part. If you can't do that, then you wind up at a point where you got to kind of move off with some of the things you find valuable. And then you're lost as a franchise. Like you're in this weird spot of like shit. Yeah. And what do I do? We're going to fire a coach again.

I think we forget about the Lakers pre-Lebron and just how just dysfunctional of an organization that was, just in general. And I don't know about right now. I'm not there. But like just the reporting of, you know, when Magic was there and, you know, I got a lot of love for magic. Got a lot of love for all those people. and don't even want to say that, but like you see a systematic thing where you talk about openly trading young guys

in the press to get an Anthony Davis saying we need to get these young guys available. And that's where competitiveness comes in because if you're a Laker, you want the Lakers to be great. But there's no, it's not a surprise that you see Alonzo Ball flourishing in Chicago right now,

even though I think he's getting surgery. But you see a Kyle Kuzma flourishing in Washington right now. And that's not, it's, it's not a byproduct of, like, just the Lakers organization. There's also, you know, Los Angeles as a media market. The Lakers are the biggest show in town and the biggest entertainment capital of the world, right? And you, but you start to see when you put LeBron and you put all these other elements into it, that it's just, I think, I don't, this is why I don't think LeBron, it's LeBron's fault to your point.

LeBron just amplifies how good or bad of an organization you are, or how dysfunctional of an organization you are, because he's so good and there's so many eyes on him, you know. And I almost just wish that, I think part of me just wishes he could have stayed in one situation for a minute and just have that partnership with an organization in the way that a Tim Duncan would or like, you know, Alonzo Moore and these older guys, you know, it's a new school function. know, we're in this new school era, but sometimes wish, man, what if LeBron just stayed like a Reggie Miller or a Kobe or something like that?

Because you could see now, like, it's kind of hard. You see this is not just a LeBron thing, but you see how hard it is for fan bases to accept him or accept other guys, right? Like, I see this with Kevin a lot where, you know, they have these great moments in these cities. And all of a sudden it's like the breakup is kind of. kind of messy and kind of awkward. And then you're like, ah, man, like, I am a heat for life.

I am a Laker for life. But, like, you kind of played me on this one. Or it was kind of, it was kind of shaky. What do you think LeBron would have been if he would have stayed in, like, a Cleveland for the rest of his career? Do you think that he could have had the continuity and there could have been functionality or was in an organization where he did have that infrastructure of a Miami Heat for this whole career?

First of all, I think LeBron and Great, you know, they respect someone standing up and, and, you know, having some backbone when it comes to dealing with them. I think they do. You know, whether ultimately they outgrow the relationship because they're big enough stars and, you know, what they want, what they want is besides the point. But I think there's respect there. I've never seen him be disrespectful or just, you know, again, you know, completely turned off when someone tries to do that. Like, I think there's respect there from, from grades for that. I think it, I don't know what LeBron or would have been at East State in Cleveland.

I don't know what the narrative would have been or anything like that. I know that when you're trying to build teams around him, they get older really quick, right? Because that's, that was the recipe. You'll give him vets. Like young guys don't really, for the most part, they're not ready to win, right? So he's in his window. You got to get rid of the young talent and stuff and give up the assets in a lot of cases to get him and to get another star with him. And then the rest of your roster needs to get older, more mature and ready to win now.

And so your mortgage in a lot of that future to try to get him in there. Right. So now you got him in this window. You got him on this contract. You're there for three or four years. And then he looks around and he's like, well, shit, we're old. Like we don't have the flexibility anymore. No, but this is what happens.

We're old. We don't have the flexibility anymore. I don't think I can win moving forward with this. So I got to go. All right. And so that's just what he falls into with teens. It's not his fault. It's just what he brings.

He brings a window to you. And within that window, you got to give up three, four years out in the future to try to get it done in the window. And he's, you know, it's a really interesting,

like, dynamic because to do it, you're going to probably lose him on the end of the deal. Because you did everything you could in the deal. to get him the championship and get your club the championship. Yeah. No, it's just, it's so interesting.

It's such an interesting case study in stardom. And also, like, just greatness, right? Because when you're a night, when you play 19 seasons, it's hard to stay with one thing. There's no way because there's so many ebbs and flows and injuries and things like that. That's why a Tim Duncan rain is just so impressive because he was able to win for so long. And like, not a lot of guys take a back seat like that. it's funny because you see

like LeBron on paper Anthony Davis should be a number one right he should be he has a number one he has a number one you know he has maybe not the DNA with the number one game for sure look I know you're giving me the look I know you're giving me the look I already know but what I'm saying is

LeBron sees Anthony Davis on paper like oh shit he's somebody I can give the baton to and I'm sure that he's seen that with a lot of players he sought out with Kyrie for a minute you know we all know how great Kyrie is, then he sees it with Anthony Davis. And then when he sees him up close, it's one thing to see him from a farm by the,

oh, I can mold him into this and this and this. But then you realize, pro LeBron, there ain't nobody as great as you, dog. So you're just going to have to just take that backseat on your own and be cool with that. And it's just interesting just how it's never worked out. And I think that's just, is that a weird thing to show just really how great he is, that no one is just as great as him when he plays his teammates. Like, I don't know. It's just a weird dynamic

everywhere he goes. Like he's trying to give up the batonage. It just doesn't work. You ever, you ever, you ever been like trying to teach someone something that, like, you know how to do well?

It doesn't have a lot of meaning. Like, I don't know, like trying to change a bike tire or something like that. And you got a kid and you're like, hey, let me show you how to do this shit, man.

And they're like fumbling with it. They're getting through it and they're fumbling with it, but it's taken a little longer than you really got time for. And you're like, ah, let me do it.

Let me do it. I got to. I got it. I got it. Move out of the way. Let me finish it. Right. And you get it. I mean, you're just better than them at it, right? Like, you've done it more times. Except the Bron does it at center. Right. But like my point is he's just, he's still great. He's still a great player. And sometimes, you know, the passing of a baton isn't just about a skill set. It's about a look in someone's eye. Right? Like all the shit I talk about Kyrie and his decision making and some of the ones I agree with and some of the ones I don't. Like, you never.

heard me ever say that he's not a killer. Like an absolute. And so when you look in his eyes as a LeBron, I think that one hurt LeBron when that didn't work out. You know what I mean? Like because I think that was the guy where he was like, mm-hmm, yep, he's going to take that shit. He wants it. Like you could tell. He just, he wants it now. I love Kyrie's game so much, bro. Right. But I love so I think it would take somebody like that. And I, you know, I look, I love, I don't think it is that guy. So passing the baton is going to be a little harder in that situation because, you know, AD is more reserved. I want to be polite about it, a little more, you know, passive.

I don't know that he necessarily gist that look in his eye. Like, mm, like, give me that shit. I want it. Give it to me now. Yeah. You know, get out of the way. Get out of the way. I got it.

And it becomes harder to pass it, man. And that's just, you know, it's the best way I could put it, man. But LeBron has a couple years left. this was a Lakers centric pod. That roster right now has to be overhauled. Like I said it way back around the 20, what was the 20 game mark when we had to, we had to,

you asked me like, Lakers. Yeah. And I said you're going to waste, you're going to waste the last couple years of his prime, like, or whatever part of his career he's in right now because they just,

there's something funky going on out there. I'm sorry, man, with that. And I try to defend it. I really did. That rest trade was just, it was,

it was one of the worst. especially that we have the luxury of hindsight dude like at least if you had buddy healed you could at least if he was fucking up you could at least trade him mid-season you know you could trade him at the deadline he still people going to want buddy hill because they're going to want shooting in this league right but damn that was hard that's that's just a hard pill to swallow we're going to look back on that and be like shit yeah quite possibly yeah I mean not even but not not quite possibly yeah you are because that's that we're already looking at like now like shit.

Yeah. It's not getting better. I mean, I think it actually might get better. If Russ, if Russ can, you know, self-evaluate a little and,

and, you know, to some degree, stop, stop worrying about the shit and play better. But I still, they're not going to be a championship level team.

Like, it will get a little better. I don't think Russ is going to fundamentally change as a part. He would have to fundamentally change the person in order to, to be good on this roster. I just, I really believe that. because it's just so new.

Because Russ is a really good player in all of these things, but he still thinks, you can see it on the court, he still thinks he's the best player on the court. He should because he's Russell Westbrook, but also you juxtaposed that,

like you said, with Carmelo, who is like, okay, I'm just going to shoot these threes. I'm not good on defense, but I'm going to try hard. I'm going to hit these mid-rangers. I am who I am.

Russ isn't there. He's just not there. And that's tough right now. Well, Brody better get his ass there because it's going to be a miserable. It's going to be a miserable ride, dog, unless you better figure out a way to get there. All right, man.

Shit. All right, let's get to ruin of the week, bro. Let's just get to ruin the week. This is tough for me to say, Raja, just to bring this all the way, all the back to circle. My Oakland, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, the Raiders just was dealt a harsh blow.

Just a very harsh blow. So with that being said, I'm going to go across the Bay and I'm going to give my ruin of the week this is very hard. It's very hard. To one, Jimmy G. Jimmy Garapolo.

Oh. I'm going to give it to Jimmy Garapolo, who is another guy that, you know, if you, you know, around the Bay Area, you know that he's probably not going to be back next season. Okay? Probably not going to be back next season. He is,

but he's playing his ass off. Okay, within the means that he has. He's getting that trade. value up, baby. You know, he's going to get one of the. I don't know if there's a Nick Foles running him, but they beat the Cowboys. I don't know if you saw that game, but it was, it was, I got to get props to Jimmy G, man.

He's taking it like a soldier right now. He's just, you know, and now, you know, we'll see what happens from there. But I'm going to give my ruin of the week to Jimmy G of the San Francisco 49ers. It hurts because I don't want to give the Niners props for anything. But, you know, shout out to Jimmy G. Who's your ruin of the week, bro. Jimmy G's making it, man, he's increasing his value. Like he's making their, oh, man, making their job tougher because you're like,

you're seeing what he's doing. You might want to keep him and easier because he's increasing the value. They'll be able to trade it. It's like what Drew Breeze was on the Chargers, man. It's nuts. You know, a real one of the week, man, there are a lot of places I could go. But I'm going to keep it Lakercentric. My real one of the week is going to go to Frank Vogel.

And not because, I mean, he game playing greater. had his team, you know, locked in and ready to execute, but because it appears that he finally said, fuck it. And that's real to me. Like, if I'm going to go down and if you're going to fire me, I'm not playing him. I'm playing who I want to play in the minutes I want to play them. And my answer is going to be,

I played who gave us the chance to win, the best chance to win. And I, hey, bro, I can't be mad at you for that. So real one. Hold on. Let's just let that breathe for a second. because that was some cold scripture from Ra. Frank Vogel don't give a fuck.

He said, I'm going to take, I'm going to take this flight to Orlando. You can fire me. It's cool. You know where Orlando's close to? A nice little island. Might have to just go take a book of a little flight there. Just clear my mind.

Yeah. Shout to Frank. Yeah, no. Frank Vogel, real one. That was another edition of Thursday, Real ones. Make sure you check us out every Monday and Thursday. We might,

hey, Ra, we might have a little, treat for the people on Monday. Okay, I'm not going to say anything more than that. I'm not going to say anything more than that. I'm not going to say any more than that. But in the meantime, we'll see you Monday. In the meantime, make sure you check out Upside High with Jay Kyle Mann and Jonathan

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Who is it, Roger? Okay. It's Vallejo's finest. Cici to Matthew. Win a motherfucking house. Holla.