The Ringer NBA Show - Say One Nice Thing About the East’s Bottom Five | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Justin, Rob and Wos are back to talk about the bottom the Eastern Conference in their annual exercise of finding one nice thing to say about worst five teams in the East: Wizards: (5:20) Hornets: (16:36) Sixers: (25:10) Nets: (35:24) Raptors: (45:35) Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier. And joining me, Rob Mahoney and the new majority owner of the Boston Celtics, Big Waz, Waz, congratulations on your new expensive purchase. Thank you, man. I can't wait to rip it for parts and sell off the most valuable pieces like every other private equity does to any decent American business. So I'm looking forward to it. What are we, if not capitalists on this podcast, Justin? You know, we just have the to tinker to perfect to optimize. That's what group chat's all about. Optimize.

I want it, fortunately for this private equity group, the Celtics don't own the land in which they play on. And so they can't sell that, which is what they tend to do to most assets that they purchase, you know, like loaded up with debt, strip the good stuff for themselves, and then send the employees home crying to their families because they no longer have a way to support themselves.

But shout to the new Waltz's Celtics owners, man. Private equity. What role do Rob and I have in this organization? Assuming that you're going to be the CEO, the guy at the board meetings, like, what do Rob and I do? You're going to be my C-O-O, a chief operating officer. Okay. Right? Because you're going to be in charge of operations.

Logistics and logistics. Yeah. Yeah. Rob, hmm. What do you got for me, Was? What do we got for Rob? Rob is definitely, who's the people that speak to the public? most.

Oh, you want you to be our front facing guy. You know, like, because Justin, we know he's too ornery. He can't be the one going on meet the press and freaking CNBC. We don't want that. But Rob will be the guy. We'll come up with some name for it.

But he will be the mouthpiece of the company. And I'll just be in the shadows, just sort of orchestrating. And, yeah, just being as greedy and efficient as possible. I will definitely sell your agenda was, but I do demand a Oklahoma City Thunder-esque extravagant title, like director of foresight or whatnot in the case of a, was that Rob Henigan, who was the director of foresight once upon a time? Oh, that's right. Yes. So I think we can be, we can be a little creative about the nature of that communication, you know, director of human to human interaction here at the Boston Celtics. Yeah, Rob's the, the Allison Janney of this. He's the

PR chief. He's the one, he's the face of the ownership group. Genuinely, the nicest thing you've ever said to me. So thank you. Really? Okay. We'll find a way to walk that back here as we get into today's episode. A annual tradition here as the NCAA tournament is off and running. We're going to talk about the teams that probably have more interest in those games than they do in their own NBA games. We are going to say, or at least try to say, one nice thing about every shit team, First and foremost with the Eastern Conference, the bottom five. You've already busted the premise by calling them shit teams.

We're saying nice things about these teams. We're saying nice things about this team. Things are going to turn around one day for these guys. Look at the Pistons. If anything, the Pistons should serve as a reminder that you can go from losing 40 straight games as they did, you know, a season or two ago, to being like, look, out of the plan, threatening for a fifth seed. Like, come on now. Things can turn around quickly. for these teams. I don't think they will, but they could potentially. All it took for the Pistons was

rostering credible players up and down the roster. Who would have known? Who would have thought? But congrats to them. So maybe our first team on the board can take some lessons from that because we're going to talk about the worst team in the East right now and the worst team in the NBA after losing the big old shipbowl last night with the Utah Jazz. We're talking about the Washington Wizards. Owners of the 15 win record 15 and 53 as we're recording this. But we will say it's been a real Paxramana, a real boomtown right now

because six of the past 12, Rob, they've won. So they're really on the come up. You know, the vibes are pretty incredible ever since the, like the hailed Kyle Kuzma trade, I have to say, you know,

just the energy in the room has shifted. The young guys are really singing. We're just talking about Alexar recently on the pod and before this one has had some incredible games recently. A lot of starting to click, relatively speaking, for a team that doesn't really anywhere to go. But any clicking at this point in the season is great for the Wizards.

I think we got to start with SAR then because I have to say my SAR stock is looking pretty good right now. I think we talked about him a couple episodes ago when we were redrafting all of the recent drafts. I always like the mold of a player that he's in, but recently he has been really popping. And so my one nice thing is I think was SAR is a guy who could, I don't know if he's going to be a building block per se, but I also love the fact that he could fit whatever mold this team is going to be in the future. Sarr is my nice thing, too, because I happen to be in Denver on Saturday when they played the Nuggets. I did not make it to Ball Arena. Instead, I watched it from my guy, Adam Mores's bar, the DNVR sports bar out there.

So I watched it in the presence of a bunch of Nuggets fans, which I found to be quite amusing because they were literally having a meltdown. Like, how can our team who wants to, who calls themselves an NBA championship, contender be losing to the Wizards, which they ended up doing. And Saar had the game of his life. That's the second time they lost to the Wizards, right? Yes, it is. This season. It's crazy.

What I like to say is the 72 and 10 Bulls lost to Vancouver twice in the 72 and 10 season, the expansion, the expansion Grizzlies. Sart was incredible. And I think he flashed all of the things that they drafted him for in terms of potential, his incredible elite, especially for his position, athleticism and mobility. He flashed an incredible motor, made a couple of three,

absolutely splashed one late in that game. And I'm like, oh, okay, you see the contours of what this guy could potentially be. This, like, futuristic, very mobile, big, not a guy with a lot of heft, but can move around beautifully and can show some level of skill work in terms of his shooting, a little bit of ball handling,

that kind of thing from the big man position. And so dropped 34 points against Yogy, which admittedly, like, I watched, they were not trying their absolute hardest in that game. But, you know, 34 is 34, guys, a career high, looked like a number one pick. And so that was for me the nice thing. It's like actually sitting down, not going to lie, this is the first full Wizards game I've watched in what months.

I'm not going to lie. of the people. Sitting out for a full game and watching Sard do his thing. I felt positive coming out of that. It's been nice seeing him use and leverage that athleticism. And overall, like, the agility and mobility that you're talking about was on offense as much as anything. We know he's an incredible defensive prospect. We know what he can do defending the rim, what he could eventually be as a switch defender in time.

But seeing him put the ball on the floor, work in space, like find ways to knife to the rim that are going to be useful even when the shot isn't falling in quite that way. It was a worry-esque, dare I say. Now we're saying nice things. Now we're really getting on the record. But if he can be that kind of mobile threat, it changes a lot about what the wizards are, what his future will be in the NBA. It seems like the kind of thing

where if a guy is agile and reads the floor well on one end, he should be able to do it on the other end. It's just not often the case. And to see a player as young as saw bring it together, even relatively late in the season, I think is a great sign. So his top four scoring games this season have all come within the past,

month, 34, 22, 22, 21. I believe he had 22 in about like 23 minutes last night against the Chas because he was so good. They actually had to shut him down in order to get J.T. Thor and those guys out there in order to tank that game pretty explicitly, but nobody was actually watching that game except for me. So nobody notices. So 19, 8, 3, and 2 over his past 8 games, 41% from 3. I think if you were going to quibble about some of the results, a lot of it is dependent on the three ball going in. He does have good form, I will say. Sometimes, like, He gets the ball, like his elbow is a little too close to his body and gets a little more inward, but he does have good form.

The problem is a lot of what he's doing is just coming from three. 41% of his field goal attempts have come from three this season. And we're talking about an athletic mobile seven footer. Can you guys guess what percentage of his attempts are coming from at the basket within three feet? Oh, it's very few. Yeah. Eight, eight. Yeah.

It's close. An under 10 definitely feels right, especially the combination of someone who doesn't have a lot of physical strength right now and also doesn't play with a lot of pure point guards, a recipe for disaster as far as shots around the rim go. Okay, it wasn't that bad, 18%. 18. But we're talking about much better than I thought. Which is saying something. But if you're looking at other guys, I looked at like clinging for instance, it's like 78% all at the bass. He just doesn't have like very good feel around the Bast and not great touch.

And so I think he's going to be the type of guy who's going to be the type of guy who's going. to need to add strength in order to finish over the top of guys. I don't think he's going to be this sort of crafty sinewy finisher who's going to have like a real bag to finish around guys. So that would be my concern. I do say though, like he does have decent passing feel. Like I don't know if he has overall court vision, but you look at it like it's two, three assists like practically every night. I don't want to stereotype him, but he does have that kind of European sort of flavor where it's like he plays within the flow of the offense. He's not going to break off in order to just get his shot. Like he's actually moving.

moving. And if you're expecting him to be the number three, number four option on your team, I think that's a good side. Yeah. And to get back to the Amari point, like he's obviously not Amari Stademeyer, who at this guy's age was already physically better than every single, and nine out of 10 NBA bigs, where, you know, basically the concept was he was either too fast for every big man that tried to guard him, or if the guy was fast enough, he would just physically overpower the dude, then eventually added a jump shot to it and became virtually unstoppable. This is probably not going to be in SARS future. But I think a more pared down version of this where he does use his athletic ability, you know, on the offensive

end where this jump shot becomes respectable enough that big men have to go out on him, right? And he could use his quickness and agility to leverage that shooting that he's flashed recently. I think there's a there's a concept there that that Wizards fans can be happy about plus the pool party is back in effect man I'm putting my swim trunks on man you know I'm gonna get

a Jamaican marina what do you got there I don't do the speedos no but I will do a European cut it's going to be some short shorts now of course it just will not be speedos that we don't get to show off the power cabs yeah we don't we don't need to do that we don't need to

expose the streets to that. Okay. Was, how do you feel about a proper pool party? I have to say I'm not exactly my scene like a Vegas wall standing hip deep in the pool, but that's it kind of party? Not my thing, but is it yours? I'm with a Vegas pool party, but I'm going to be in a cabana. I'm not going to be with the riffrath in the actual pool.

Now, a person's pool party at their house, so long as they keep the guest count relatively down and respectable, I love a pool party, barbecue by the pool. Hell yeah. Hang out, some pool chairs. I love that. I just don't like a crowded pool situation. I don't like that.

I think Rob and I are more in the like Bo Burnham movie. What was that, eighth grade? Were that style, we're just trying to avoid. Trying to hide out in the house for a little while. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's probably more my scene. I will say, as far as the Alexar part of it,

to veer us back from the pool party, literal into the figurative one, Jordan pool has been very good this season. I think overall him becoming a more normal NBA player has been a wonderful development for the Wizards and a wonderful development for his career. He's just starting to fall into a slightly more responsible

pattern of recognition, of decision making. He's starting to play like an actual... I think some of that is circumstance, and I will say it's all relative. There's Jordan Poole's conscience today, and there's where it was 12 months ago, and those are very different things. That's good. That's true.

What else do you have, Rob? Well, while we're on Stockwatch. If anyone out there is selling Kishan George stock, I would like to come collect it. I'm putting out my bid now that I will take all Kishan George stock, the 24th pick in the draft last year. He's shooting 37% from the field, 32% from 3. And I will tell you he's better than that.

And you can already see it and you can see him starting to put some pieces of his game together. Ultimately, just like a good versatile wing with clear, demonstrable ball skill, that's a guy I want to invest in. I think he's going to be a good defender. I think he's going to be a good connector. He's already a pretty decent pick and roll player. I just think he's the kind of guy whose game is going to sing when his team makes sense. And right now the Wizards don't make sense. And so he is the wing guy who gets kind of lost in the shuffle. He plays 40 minutes against Denver on Saturday. They could not take him off the floor.

Producer's Day was saying that he clocked him before the season when he was doing an interview with our Tate Frazier. And he just liked that mentality. Just came in there wanting to be a role player. And so here he is, fitting that bowl. Yeah, I think he's, going to be solid. I do think the wizards are actually sneakily solid with some of these guys that could be rotation pieces down the road there, which is if you're going to tear things down to the studs, if you're not even going to try to aspire

to competent in this season, I think that's what you want. You want to stack guys who could play minutes for you down the road. I don't know if they have anybody who I would love seeing starting next to Sarr on the lower level. Like George, could he be in the starting lineup? Maybe if so. But I would say, they're actually more watchable than a lot of teams

we're going to talk about in this list. These days, there's prospect watching happening here. I mean, Vukchievich minutes are can't miss. Now and forever. I know. He's something. This is his time of year, ultimately. You know, like, that's what I love about doing this exercise now

is because when we start checking in with these teams to say one nice thing, it's just like, this is Tristan Vukchavitch's month. And it's going to be that way every time we do this exercise from now until eternity. And I am at peace. I'm not just at peace with that. I find relief in it.

I find comfort in that fact. Anthony Gill still getting minutes on this team. Let's go. That guy's going to be in the front office before we know, just because he's such a legacy on this team. Let's go to the Hornets now, the next team up on the standings. And I'll be honest, this is the team I really had to work for.

Like, there are the obvious ones, obviously the Mell-Ball, Brandon Miller, then Miles Bridges. They have talent on this roster. But if you were to watch the product as it stands right now with all those guys out, it's pretty bleak. They're very bad.

Just a very bad team. And they've had moments of the season where Charles Lee had them playing like pretty competent defense. And it's just everything has fallen to shit. And they've played so many guys because they've had injuries. They've had, you know, prospects in and out of the lineup, trying just like trying guys on for size. None of it has really worked.

And none of it really works, particularly when Lamello is off the floor. So what can you do at this point if you're the Hornets? I think my ray of light for them are the Lamello ball trade. rumors. I think it shows a departure from the Jordan, Michael Jordan, sort of school of thinking of let's chase their version, the Hornets version of some respectability at all cost. Where's this new regime is like, look, this is not the makings or the bones of some dope future going forward. We've already paid the guy. Let him go figure out his, you know, his future somewhere else. and let's like try to actually start from scratch as a regime

and get this thing going in the right direction. And that to me is a positive indication. Look, people might say like, look, they're going to stink. Fans shouldn't have to watch stinky products all the time. I agree with that. But you stink with lamello ball too. That's true.

And so why not stink without him? It's not like these guys are playing, you know, 500 ball, a 48-win ball. And I'm like, yo, tear this down. the studs because this sucks. I actually would like disagree with that, especially for a team that's had no success at all, right, in the entire Jordan tenure. They were the laughing stock. He was the worst owner in the league. Let's face it. And so to be like, you know what, let's start a fresh slate and try to do something new, a new foundation to build upon. That's what I am heartened by

for the Charlotte Hornets. Yeah, mine kind of goes with Waz's. I think they're doing the work right now. They are eating their bowl of shit in order to have a better future down the road, which they haven't been doing for a very long time. Like, just the fact that they have interesting guys on this team is like a credit to them that they're not just bringing in retreads, bringing in veterans just to stabilize a 500 team just to get into the first round of the play. And not even like the second game. They're just out in the first one. And so I do think that the long term vision for that team is there, even though right now seeing Dayquan Jeffries all 27 years old, suiting up in the starting lineup, a guy named Deacon. Damien Baugh, who I had never heard of because he's a 24-year-old rookie in the starting lineup, is pretty ugly right now. But it seems like they just have a worldview, as opposed to being myopically centered on what is right in front of them that season.

It's true. I think ultimately, like, I'm probably a little more bought in on Lamello, certainly than Waz's, on the Lamello experience on what he can be as a player, on the trajectory of his career. But even I have to admit, there comes a point at which you have to ask yourself as an organization, are we the place that can curb his worst instincts as a player? Are we the place that can rein in the parts of him that are maybe like a little too wild and productively channel all the creativity in his game, all of his ability to set up teammates and even get to the basket. I thought a little bit more effectively this year.

I like Lamello a lot. But there's liking Lamello and there's liking him as a future Hornet. And I think there's fair reason to kind of split the difference on those things sometimes. Yeah, I don't understand really why they're so ready to do so. I guess maybe the day-to-day experience just might be so tough to deal with just because he is so loosey-goosey about everything that like trying to get him and be a professional is probably taxing on an organization which is all fucking Luca Donches get traded for the exact same reasons. And that went so well. But I just see, unless like they draft somebody that is going to step on Lamello's specific role on the team, I don't see why he can't be as much a part of this future as Miller or even Bridges or whoever you bring in. So I don't think we're going to talk about the Miami Heat today, right?

No. Not right now. But honestly, they're on pace for it. They've really been sliding. We're not going to talk about them, too. But like, I think because it's funny how the league works and politics work, right? Like the heat went out of their way to be like the real heat culture guy that represents us is bam out of bio, not Jimmy. Like, which was implicitly saying not Jimmy Butler.

And I think if Lamello Ball had the sort of. professional aura and reputation that Bam had, they'd be loath to move on from him. He doesn't have that feel to his approach. And so I'm not mad at a Hornetor organization and a GM that came in just last year. Okay, he got hired in 2024, being like, you know what? I don't think I want to stake the future

of my employment here on this kid. I'm not sold. I'd probably like to move on. I don't blame the guy for that. Yeah. Kick the tires. See what's out there. Yeah.

I don't think Lamello is the kind of player who's so good. You have to be overly precious about the idea of even talking about it. So like see what, see what's there to investigate. Yeah. Rob, did you have anything nice you want to say about the Hornets? Of course I do.

I mean, you guys are living in the future in Lamello Ball trade rumors and the possibility of what could be. I'm here in the present. I am living and dying with movement. Dio Bate, just trying shit. Let's go. Just doing stuff out there. This is the expansion draft guy, right?

Did we talk about him in the expansion draft? I can't even remember. I think we didn't pick him. In fact, he was on the short list to be picked. Yes. I mean, I've had a whole journey with him. And these are the kinds of players I find myself gravitating towards where you see them at certain stages of their career.

I was monitoring him with the Clippers. Nothing he did really jumped out to me per se, was watching him earlier this season with the Hornets. I'm like, why is this guy? getting as many minutes as he is, even with all their injury, like their injury trouble specifically in the front court. He's 23, Rob. The clock is ticking on this kid.

The clock is ticking, but he's growing on me. And he's really growing on me this year in a couple of different ways. One, he's just the kind of energy big who can come into a game and just like change a run with rebounding and effort alone. Those guys are always going to have a place in the league. But what's great about a team like the Hornets is they have very little to play for. And guys like Musa Diabate can let their freak flag fly. and all of a sudden he's just throwing passes

he shouldn't throw, he's putting up hook shots from like a little bit of an irresponsible range frankly, he's like trying things that are exciting to me as someone who's watching his future. If he is just energy big who can pull down some boards, that player has a very clear ceiling, a very clear cap on what he can be

to a good NBA team. If Musa Diabate has anything in him that's a little bit more audacious than that and I kind of think that he might, then all of a sudden you're getting somewhere. And so shout to Musa Diabate who got converted from a two-way into an actual contract this season, who's played overall quite good basketball for a team that doesn't give him much reason to do it. I have been impressed.

Rob, I'm not too proud to admit that I clocked your Musa Diabate skepticism earlier this season. And I thought to myself, that's a little disappointing because I saw the vision with Diabate. He just plays so fucking hard. He does. And that, especially if you're going to be a bench player, is such a skill. He plays so hard that he makes an impact on the game. You can't miss him. Because he's just going everywhere and he does have good feel and he just makes things happen. That's the exact type of guy a team like the Hornets or any team, frankly, just needs in the course of a trudging through a regular season that is way too long. He makes an impact in that regard. Now, did he get a new contract because Mark Williams was supposed to be traded and he was supposed to maybe play a little bit more than he has right now?

Maybe. Why is he still playing behind Yusuf Nurkich who was actively trying to fight their opponent the other day and was just like starting shit for no other reason that I think. think he just has a lot of pent up anger to get out. I have no idea. But I like Diabate. I think he plays a clear role. And I think he's going to be the type of guy that has like a seven year career because he keeps doing this for a bunch of different teams. He really does. I mean, the good news is that Yusuf Nurkich is not always ahead of him anymore. So we're going to take what we can get, you know. And as far as Mark Williams goes, look, the reason the trade was vetoed was because he's not very reliably healthy, which makes that someone like Musa Diabate all the more valuable to

have. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Basketball fans know that great assists can change the game. And there's no greater assists than one from State Farm. State Farm is here to help you navigate the right coverage for your home, car, and more. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. State Farm, Bloomington, Illinois, coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. All right.

Let's move along to the Philadelphia 76ers. Can I guess that the Sixers might be the one team on this list in which we all have the same thing? Queen Grimes? See, I also have Quentin Grimes. Justin, do you have Quentin Grimes? I do as part of a broader point, but yes. Okay. Yes, it's Quentin Grimes, man.

Finally, our devotion to this guy's two years summer league dominance is paying off. Look, this guy got ran out of town in New York. Word on the street is he had issues with a couple of guys in that locker room. You know, whatever. We won't get into that. Jason kid ran him out of town Detroit ran him out of town it's like bro like three straight teams

just like yeah I'm good on this kid and he ends up in Philadelphia and lo and behold he's showing himself to be a player and we get it it's March basketball like we've seen a lot of Hall of Famers in March turn into never was his the rest of it careers like this

this is notorious time of the NBA calendar for wacky, goofy stuff to happen. But, man, I'm proud to see, like, in a position where the Sixers have basically made it that we don't have anything else to play for, that Quentin Grimes is playing with some damn pride. I love that. And I know people at home are going to be like, oh, he's a professional who gets paid millions of dollars.

Man, are you watching the rest of these teams in March? Some of the craziness that these coaches and GMs are pulling lineup-wise and all of that, like, they're sending a message that, yo. Yes. our season has been cooked. There's nothing to do or see here anymore. Quentin Grimes is not treating it that way, and I'm happy, fam. I would say the Sixers especially,

which Grimes aside, have built kind of a perfect tank machine here to the point that they played this game against the Thunder on Wednesday. Shea did not play. Jalen Williams did not play. Isaiah Hardenstein did not play. Lou Dord, Kason Walsh, all did not play. And you may note that if the Sixers do have to give up their pick because they win too many games, it goes to the Oklahoma City Thunder.

Guess what happened? the Thunder beat the Sixers by 33 points because this team cannot win games. The Sixers are 3 and 17 in their last 20. But in the process of losing, look, Quinn Grimes has been undeniable. He's been awesome. And he's been awesome.

Not to Tudor on Horn too much, but I would say the group chat podcast has been on the forefront of saying Quinn Grimes has a little shake to his game, has a little juice out the dribble, has more to contribute in a way that... Than just 3&D stuff. That sounds like, look, Haywood Highsmith could never, you know?

Quinn and Grimes. can step in and get buckets and create things for a team that right now doesn't have a lot of creation going for it. 17 games with the Philadelphia 76ers averaging 21.4 points per game. Over the past 10 games, so all in March, 29, 6 and 5 with 54, 417 shooting splits. You're right. We have been on this very early. And maybe he is like something of a guard version of Christian Wood because it sounds like

he's just not a cool hang. Don't say that. Well, at the very least, I don't think he's getting invited to a lot of postgame parties with whatever team he's on. But if he's going to shoot this well, I don't think it really matters. There's just that was the difference between him and Caleb Martin when they made the trade with the Mavericks. It's just the shot talent is there. And frankly, if you're the Mavs, you get rid of Luca, you want to distribute some of the ball handling duties or maybe hope that like guys can unearth a little bit more of that from your supplemental guys. Grimes was the perfect candidate to do that because we had clocked that early on.

I remember seeing him in the game in Portland. And I was like, this guy could run just like, you know, end of the shot clock, just run a little self-creation sort of stuff. And he's the type of guy that, like, I think he could do that a little bit more with the Sixers, especially if Ball George is going to be so limited. He's been great for them. I think he's a really good fine. And he's a type of guy that could move forward with that team. He can play with a bunch of Jared Butler's or he could play next to him and Bede and Tyrese Maxie just as easily. Totally.

And shout out to him. He's going to be restricted for agent this summer is in line to make even a little bit more money than he might have otherwise. And that was really the sole reason that the Mavs would trade him for Caleb Martin is that Caleb Martin was under contract. Otherwise, I cannot tell you a single thing that Caleb Martin does better on a basketball court than Quentin Grimes does. And that seems like a problem for Dallas, but Philly is making hay with it. Quinn Grimes might be in line for some full mid-level activity here. I mean, he could be fishing around with some good winning teams. Absolutely.

And the Sixers, you got to, you know, their guard rotation. Maxie Grimes, McCain. This is something that's nice. It's something to be cheery about. Also, last but not least, a little birdie told me podcast P is coming back. Oh, they're no longer vying for a championship. His season is over.

And so the podcast will be back. So another thing for Sixth's fans to be happy about, y'all. He's no longer dedicated to his chase for a championship this season, which I believe is explicitly. what he said when he decided to shut down the podcast. And then like what happened? It was like two weeks went by and he's like, oh, I got a hang nail.

I got to go. Because he wasn't too dedicated to his craft. But I have to say after he was shut down for the season, the Sixers really rolled out the tank in that game against the Houston Rockets. And I have to say this is my one nice thing. In addition to Grimes looking like a legitimate part of this team going forward, is that they were fun and watchable in a way. that they haven't been since last season, honestly, maybe even early on last season when

Embed was healthy and playing, because they rolled out Grimes, Jared Butler, counsel, Edwards, and Berset. I think Bressett was functionally the center of this lineup. Okay. And they just played with just like this mad energy. And they actually blew the doors off off the Rocks at the point where they were leading that game healthily for a long amount of time. But then they still came back, lost in overtime, and still got the loss of the tank is still going out.

I think that's the perfect what you want. If you're a Philly fan, you just want these young guys to play hard, give us something to watch and still lose so we can get a draft pick. So honestly, I think this is the best part of the Sixers season. If you're a Sixers fan, now is the time to really plug it. Well, the expectations are gone. You're not living and dying with every Joelle and Beat health update. You're not even having to be like hypercritical of whether Tyrese Maxi can carry the load without this or that guy out of the lineup. It's just like, hey, we have Chumow Kiki now.

Let's enjoy the ride while we can. Let's see guys playing hard. let's see the Quentin Grimes types pop. Let's regress our season to a point of finding hope versus diminishing it. And that's always a better thing as a fan experience. Also, Darrell Mori is using AI to figure out when and when and where to play Paul George and Joelle and Bede on their bum knees. So, you know, the Sixers, they're at the forefront and cutting edge of AI technology in sports,

guys. So another thing for Sixers fans to, you know, hang their hat on. Did you guys listen to that, like, full interview? you. He did. I believe it was at Sloan. It was feeling very CCTV police state, because although like the information will help teams make decisions, it was also like, we're going to watch guys as they shoot free throws and try to determine whether or not, like, they might have like something in their functional movements that might lead to injuries down the road. Like, we're getting to minority report in basketball, like pretty quickly. It was kind of scary. Teams have been on that stuff.

Like the wearable tech, you know, optical tracking. fight that efforts. Oh, for sure. For good reason. I think when you're talking about like... About the privacy of your medical information. Yes. Like,

do you use it preemptively? DNA type of thing? It's ugly. It's one thing if you're using it for to establish like treatment or rehab methods after an injury when you're minority reporting this shit and saying we're not going to pay you because we think based on your physical makeup you're going to get hurt. And here's and here's why it's nonsense and bleak.

They're never going to see a positive indicator. your meds and be like your medical write-up and be like, you know, we should pay you more because you got this dope genetic thing happening. Let's pay. Never would they do that. Ever. It would only ever be used to stiff you for money. You can't tell the clutch gene from AI is what you're saying. Honestly, the AI might be the one way you can tell the clutch gene. Yeah. I think this is the whole advantage to tanking though. Like they're cycling through the Sixers are just a bunch of young guys. Let's see if they could play. If not,

no big deal. Rob, are you a, are you Jared Butler guy? I am a Jared Butler guy. I'm certainly more of a Jared Butler guy than I am like a Jalen Hood Schafino guy for, if we're picking favorites.

He stinks. But Butler, I've been a little bit more mixed on. Can you give me like the elevator pitch on Butler? Well, what have you, what have you been down on or conflicted about? He reminds me a little too much of like a Tyrese Martin where it's just like

he's not much of an athlete and I think he's just like a guy that is enough of a ball handler in order to get you by some of these terrible March games. But I just don't know how he scales to like high level basketball. I don't know that he will. I think he's always going to be one of these guys whose equity in the league depends on him being a bit of a tryhard. Like he has to get

after it and has to work pretty hard to create everything that he gets. But he has one of, like enough of a funky tweener sort of game where I find myself believing in it. I find myself believing in kind of the intensity of his defense at times. I don't think he's ever going to be like a great lead

ball handler even for a second unit. He's always going to rely on secondary playmakers on the wing or his bigs. But as far as a guy who can come in and stop up minutes and give you good effort, like a commitment to running actual stuff and reliable defense, that's not bad for a backup guard. Yeah, almost like a Dennis Schroeder light, light. That would be a great trajectory for someone like him. Yeah.

All right. Let's move along to the next team on the list. The Brooklyn Nets, who despite themselves, they'll keep finding themselves in these freaking games. I was watching them against the Boston Celtics, who I don't think had Tatum or Brown the other day, but they were still feisty. They should have probably won that game unless Baylor Shireman just shot above his head

like he was in the NCAA tournament again. That's kind of my one nice thing. It just seems pretty clearly that Jodie Fernandez is a guy. Are we all Jordy Fernandez? Yeah, Jordy Fernandez. He's a guy. Group chat in full alignment today. It reminds me of the Will Hardy thing very early on.

in Utah where these teams just shouldn't have been competing. I mean, the freaking Wembe draft where these guys just, like, had every incentive to tank and Will Hardy, because he's a freaking competitive maniac, was just like over my dead body. And they basically won their way into being completely out of the Wemby sweepstakes.

But I think Jordie Fernandez, similarly, is just like, he's just a good coach. And he gets these guys to play hard. Yes. Every single game. You know, I've had a lot of praise for JJ Redick this year, right? Like that he's gotten to Lakers specifically on defense. These guys are trying at a level that they just didn't for Darvinham.

Whatever the hell it is that JJ has, he's inspiring it from his team. And it feels like Jordy Fernandez is doing that same thing. He's got that same quality to get these guys to believe in the, sort of relevance of what they're doing on a day-to-day for a team that's going nowhere fast. And I think that's quite impressive, man. Like, it's bigger than the X's and O's or what minutes, the rotations and who's he staggering and what's his ATOs and blah, blah, blah. All that stuff matters too and it has its place.

But getting people to buy in and believe that you know what you're doing and going out and executing for a coach, I'm blown away by that, man. So shout's to Jordy Hernandez for that. Yeah, Jordi has done a great job. I think they are the perfect amount of competitive. They were so good that at a certain point in the season, we had to stop and ask. Hernandez, sorry, I said Hernandez. I didn't want to check you, Was, but sometimes we got to look, you circled back.

You made it, right? Yeah. They reached the point in the season where we had to stop and ask, are they winning too many games? And then since then, they've lost a bunch of games because they simply do not have the one thing that you cannot fake in the NBA, which is shot creation. They don't have it. They imported DeLo to just like kind of get by. And otherwise, it's a bunch of players who are not quite equipped for the roles that they're playing offensively, doing their damnedest on a nightly basis to make it work, to move the ball, to keep things fluid,

to find other ways to score. But ultimately, they're just like an overachieving defense that is playing above its head. And can hang, even in games as you're saying, Justin, where, yeah, opposing stars might be out, but good veteran teams that should be able to put them away easily, just can't. And that's where you want to be at this point in the curve. they had to abandon ship on just useful veterans like Dorian Finney Smith for a bunch of the second round picks, Dennis Schroeder, just because they were winning too much in part because Fernandez had established enough of a culture, enough of like a try hard attitude that these guys were legitimately like threatening for the succeed at a certain point.

And so that's a credit to him. I just think like you'll hear this a lot as we talk about some of these teams. If you're in this position, if you're playing for the future, what you want is organizational stability, not just in the front office, but also in the coaching staff. because it's one of the few places. A lot of these small markets, I know Brooklyn isn't one of them, but sometimes they act like it

just because historically, they haven't been on the same par as their friends in MSG. I think you want to have an advantage on the coaches have for guys who want to play for that guy, but also be able to coach them up and find guys and bring things out of guys

that they hadn't really found otherwise. I think if you were to knock the nets, I think at this point, a lot of some of the projects they have on their roster, some of the bets that they've made, they've been fine. Like I was ready for the Zaire Williams like revival tour.

It's kind of happening. He's like fine. I'm not going to be the one to say it because I am out. I've abandoned that particular ship. But Zari Williams is having the best basketball season of his career. That's just a fact that we're putting it out there.

There are levels to this for sure. Could he be an NBA player? Yes. He doesn't look like a complete catastrophe at this point. Is he going to be a high level starting caliber wing who's going to be three and D type? I don't think so. He's just like, he's so toolsy, though.

You're right. Like, he's so long and athletic. You're like, God damn, if he just clicks into place, this guy is someone we're going to want around for a while. But like, Keon Johnson, Dyer Williams, they're fine. They're fine. And so they don't, they haven't gotten to the Jared Allen's. They haven't found their future DeAngelo Rustes. Yes.

There's Spencer Dinwiddies at this point. So they're probably on an earlier step of the process. But I think you have to like what they have at the very least in the organizational, institutional side of things. Well, that's the differentiating point from the like, Kenny Atkinson era, for example, is those exact prospects, right? Like, they're finding guys who are not quite diamonds in the rough, but enough of a precious stone that you can dust them off a little bit and throw them out there and they're worth

something. Like, they're finding actual NBA talent from picks and castoffs and second draft guys that other teams didn't really want anymore. And they're using them to play good competitive minutes. Are those prospects so good, you're going to bank the future of the nets on them? Overall, probably not. They're waiting for those guys. This is one of those areas where the Nets really did kind of have to be bad this year.

Like these next two drafts are going to be really important for them to have some kind of decent pick to import real potential star talent. And so they are equipped and they're well positioned to take a swing on somebody they think can really elevate their team. Given everything else that's working structurally in terms of coaching, in terms of preparation, I think that's a pretty good formula for a team at this stage. I still like Cam Johnson. If he's just going to stick around, he's going to fit whatever version.

in the team they are. Nick Claxton. I guess there's... Cam Thomas. Cam Thomas still plays basketball. Takes a lot of shots. Well, he plays basketball sometimes. He's not for a contract this summer. I think that's going to be interesting.

As the Nets, probably being the only team that could pay him big money, like, will they? I don't think so. I don't know what teams have the mid-level available just because the CBA is so complicated at this point. We don't have that in front of us. But, like, so if the team, like, the magic... Mid-level is like $16 million? or how much is that at this point?

Somewhere around there. I think if you're a team like the magic and you're prone or you're against like taking bigger swings for an Anthony Simons, could you import Camp Thomas just as steady like your bench units? I could see something like that happening. He's a useful player. I just think he's much more useful to a team that already has aspirations and already has your tent pulls in place rather than a team like the Nets where he's above and beyond the number of guy. Yeah. He did improve this season in the spirit of saying one nice thing.

like not my taste in player, so I'm going to mostly abstain. But I do think he improved. I do think he is of use to, as you say, Justin, someone who has like a little bit more structure already established. And he is sliding into fit a role versus helping you build the identity of what you, you know, the future of your team is going to be. That's not really what Camp Thomas is about.

That guy's going to go in and get buckets. And he can generate one on one offense as consistently as any like player of his ilk in the league. Like the sub star class, he's very good at it. other than that, I'm looking around this team and I'm seeing a lot of guys who like you could use as kind of a cornerstone of your organization, you could have slotted in as a fourth or fifth starter on the next really good Nets team. But overall, just a lot of guys who can play. You know, like I every time the Nets come up will mention Trent and Watford because I think he is actually a good player. I think he is actually hiding in plain sight here. Someone should scoop him up if not the Nets locking him into a long term deal.

You hear that Dairon Sharp? Get the fuck out of the way so Woffer can cook. That's not what I said. Darron Sharp. I also like Darren Sharp for the record. He's pretty good too. Nets also doing the work. You know, there are a lot of teams on these lists as we talk about this in the West next week that the teams that have decided we're going to be absolute shit.

And we are going to bottom the fuck out of this season just so we could have a better chance of some of the top prospects in this draft because it's not just flag. It looks like it's going to be like the top four guys could really do something for your franchise. Tell us about it. Wasn't I know all about the draft now? Oh, yeah. We're gurus now. The American Baylor kid, I'm all in.

Next D. Rose. Yeah, we're running the McNeeley tape. We're still referring to them as the Baylor kid, the Russian guy. Like, it's a little bit of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we're getting there. Kyle's coaching us up. Okay.

I only know the one white guy on Duke, so I haven't gotten to the other white guys. So I can't wait to listen to that by. Duke white guys. Okay. What's the last time that happened? Two white guys from Duke drafted in the top 10. We got to look that up.

I don't know. You know what I was stunned about. This is a little bit of random draft. trivia while we're talking about bad teams. Who was the last all-star level player to come out of North Carolina? UNC or the state? UNC, the institution. Because I was thinking about the Duke UNC rivalry,

and of course, it's still quite fervent, still quite frothy. But let's just say that Duke has had quite a more successful recent track record in terms of NBA prospects, which you probably know, even if you haven't internalized. Rashad McCants were not all-star level. Neither was in Sean May. Williams was like the second pick. You think Sean May made an All-Star team? Marvin Williams didn't make an All-Star team.

He somehow did not. Though, shout out to Marvin Williams. Really made a career for himself. Damn. All-Star UNC. It might be Vince Carter. It was Vince Carter and Antoine Jameson. Those are the last UNC All-Stars.

Is that not nuts? Is that like what? 2001. That was the next Kobe, which is tough. That's crazy. Wow. Well, the Nets are definitely in contrast in that regard, putting themselves in position for the next Antoine Jameson,

then the team we're going to talk about next, which is like almost despite itself, stumbling into wins especially lately. We're talking about the Toronto Raptors who find themselves in 11th right now, riding the highs of their recent performance, 6 and 3 in March. Unfortunately, they just so happen to be playing the worst, easiest schedule in the league. So within that stretch, they have played Orlando twice, Utah twice, Washington twice, Philadelphia, Phoenix in the Portland Trailblazers. So they are currently in that stretch in March 5th in the NBA on defense. And so you can say one nice thing about them that the defense finally clicking.

Unfortunately, they have played some of the worst offenses in recent NBA history, I would say, considering that a lot of these teams are also midgame tanking, as we described, with the Wizards. But it's on defense. That's nice. I think it's bigger than that. I think their defense's success, and this is my one nice thing as well, is that this is a good defensive team that just because of circumstantial reasons has not been allowed to be a good

defensive team this season. Barnes-Barden quickly have barely played together. They've had guys in and out of the lineup all season. For context, those are the Raptors three best players easily. They have played about the same number of minutes together that Steph, Draymond, and Jimmy Butler have. And Jimmy Butler became a warrior six weeks ago. So so far, they just have not had a chance to be the Raptors that they're going to be. And even putting the star and their best players aside and whatever Brandon Ingram is going to be for the next year. Jakop Pertel, Scotty Barnes, quickly, that to me is three levels of quality defense

in a way that gives you something to actually build around. It gives you a real shot to compete on that nightly basis, which frankly the Raptors do even now, even though they're not actually going to challenge for the play-in, but they hang in a lot of these games that they really should not. I just think this is going to be a good defensive team next year. I'm not saying they're going to be top 10, but I think they're going to be really competent

in a way that would surprise you given their relative standing now. And Brandon Ingram's going to be cool, playing hard defense, rarely getting the ball? That's no. But I would say Scotty Barnes this year has had such a meaningful evolution in terms of his defense that he looks like he's going to be an actual difference maker. And so if you're going to rationalize the Brandon Ingram thing. First time ever, by the way, he's had this defensive reputation with none of the results for his whole career.

I totally agree with you. I think last year between the effort, between some of his instincts, it just, really wasn't quite there in terms of what he was bringing to the table defensively. But if you were going to wrap your head around Brandon Ingram as a raptor, I think it is somewhat dependent on the fact that Scotty's been much better defending wings, defending across positions, denying people. I think making better use and understanding how to use his length more effectively as a wing, right? How to deny, how to crowd scores, how to use those assets like proactively versus just reactively. He's starting to play like a more established, a more veteran

and defensive player in a way that makes it a little easier to live with that Brandon Ingram might not be doing those same things. Well, you said that they might not contend for a playing spot this year. And I agree that if you look at the standings right now, they are five games behind the Miami Heat. But as I read today on ESPN.com, according to BPI, they're like a projection system, which I don't believe uses minority report AI, or maybe it does and we just don't know. They are actually projected to finish eighth.

Are they really? Well, I think the heat have lost 10 of 11 games. They've been fucking awful. It's been really bad. Their offense is putrid. Like, watching, please don't have them go against the magic in a playing game because that is going to have the worst. Jimmy Butler because they didn't want to pay him for Andrew Wiggins and a pick in the

20s. I think it might have been because he was basically like throwing a mosh pit like in the middle of their locker room. They didn't want to pay him. That's literally what. they did. Yeah. That's incompetence,

but whatever. Jimmy. You call it incompetence? We call it culture, Was. This is just how they live. When that guy is motivated, he is very good.

I don't have anything positive to say. No, no, you have to find, we are not letting you off this podcast until you say something nice. And here's why. Here's why. They have a GM who's apparently unfirable. And therefore,

we'll do what he wants. Like literally can behave as if the Raptors have a 20-year runway because he can't get fired. And like the team, the roster construction makes no sense. Look, I love IQ. I've loved him since the days of the Knicks when Tim's was playing him like 30 minutes a game as a rookie. You know, the guy has a high motor.

really positive dude, all of that stuff. I love IQ. RJ has kind of disappointed me in his trajectory. I thought he would be a better defensive player, to be quite honest with you guys, than what he's shown is this kind of like one-sided, one-handed, offensive type of player, play make every now and again, whatever.

He's been better than that. That's, that's, I don't agree with that characterization. I think RJ has had a nice step forward this year when he's been healthy. It's just been fits and start. Okay, cool. He's been better. Cool. What is the identity of his team? You think this is going to be a defensive juggernaut next season?

I'm not saying they're going to be a defensive juggernaut. Isn't that what they have to be, though, to be credible? I think the hope is that... Don't they have to be like a Houston Rockets type of dynamic defense because they're not going to score on people. I think, yeah, they're probably destined to wind up in the, like, 22 to 50s. range on offense next year. That might be a good outcome, given some of the personnel considerations. But defensively, I think they can be pretty good.

And so, yeah, it's not quite Houston Rockets level, but they're not coming from a Houston Rockets base of talent. Like, they have really, Scotty Barnes is a standout prospect. Other than that, it's a lot of guys that do have caveats on the roster, ultimately. And so you have some good backline defense. You have some good pressure defense on the perimeter. You have the ability to give, like, something to hang your hat on, which is not something that a lot of lottery teams have right now.

So many of these groups are searching and searching and searching, including the Raptors, and maybe they finally have something they can actually rely on. You're hanging your hat on that, huh? I am. It's a made-in-China Amazon product. The rack might be falling apart. Talking Timu now.

I also wonder if the defensive success is going to be a little compromised because right now they're getting by with a lot of role players in those spots, like the Jameson battles, our guy, Mobo, just going in there and wrecking shit. Are you not obligated to talk about Mobo after selecting him so high in the expansion draft, Justin? I don't think even our audience can withstand more Mobo talk. So I think we have to give him a pass there. But like, you're going to be importing some guys that might have less of an effect defensively.

Like, I mean, Brandon Ingram hasn't been a good defender for like time infinium. Like, you know, like Grady Dick, how is he going to apply into that team? Is Jared Barrett? are they going to trade him or are they going to stick him in there? Because then you're probably playing quickly Barrett, Ingram, Barnes, and I guess Pertil,

like that's fine. That's a good defense. I don't know if it's elite level to the point where that has to be their identity. But I will say this. My one nice thing is that I think Maasai has so much of a track record that while I don't really see the vision for this team, I have found myself still giving it the benefit of the doubt or trying to process what exactly we're missing here because it is such a departure from the way teams

typically build, then I'm like wondering, does he see something that we don't? Is the, like, is he doing money ball, but we just haven't like come to terms with it yet? I think you're right. Was I think it's no. But like I have to like at the very least entertain the prospect because it's such a departure from the way teams do things now. No, we have these examples in other forms of business. It's almost like monopoly power when, you know, there's nothing you can do to lose,

meaning there's nothing you could do for you to use for you to lose your position. within the organization to get fired. You're unfairable. So now you just do what you do. These skills trying to win on the edges, these things atrophy. Like it's over. You get fat and lazy.

Like when you literally think you're building on a 10-year trajectory, you're thinking on, like, sort of like, the Chinese government, right? Like they always tell people like, our decisions are made with 100 years of people. the future in mind.

Yep. Right? Like that's, that's the way that they think, but they actually execute on this stuff. They're thinking in eras,

you know? They're not worried about next year. Exactly. Masayu Jerry similarly is not thinking about next year. He's basically just like, I'm going to slow play this until the perfect trade comes through.

The perfect signing. Brandon Ingram, give him three years, whatever. We could probably move this if we really had to. Doesn't make a difference in anybody's life.

One way or the other. It's fine. Doesn't matter. We don't need to make huge differences. We're in no rush. We can sit and wait for the perfect move to happen. And that shit sounds cool on Reddit and on a message board. Like being a genius, you know, to, oh, my God, look at the pick swaps.

That shit sounds great. But in reality, bro, we're going to be sitting here waiting and waiting and waiting for Toronto to shit or get off the pot. Private equity was ready to scrap this thing to all. hell. The agenda is strong. Again, again, I'm not somebody who's going to look at what the Pacers are doing right now, right? And say, oh, you're not as good as the Thunder.

You don't have the Thunder trajectory. Tear that thing down. It's terrible. No, the Pacers, I'm like, all right, I could see they got to the goddamn conference finals last year doing it the way that they're doing. Right? Like, there's a big

difference between where the Pacers are, what they're doing. And you think the Raptors are about to be as good as the Pacers. I think the Pacers might wind up the third seed in the Eastern Conference this year. And I need you both to just prepare yourselves for that fact. Okay. Are the Raptors anywhere near that right now? No, no, no, no, no.

They're not. The Pacers, like, trajectory or you're saying. They're not close to the Pacers, guys. Think about that. Pacers are good. I think we should start with getting into the play-in before we start talking about the top of the East. What does China have to say about Jacoby-Walter?

Do you think he would fit into their business culture? I like Jacoby Walter. I wonder what his social score would be if he moved to China. Rob, what do you think about Jacoby Walter? I don't. Honestly, I cannot pretend to have a strongly founded opinion about Jacoby Walter. I'm mostly just disappointed in Waz. And maybe this is a statement on Grady Dick season

and the way it has kind of spiraled out of control. But you couldn't even find a nice thing to say about Grady Dick or a nice pun. It started off with a spark. I was excited about what Grady Dick was doing. But we were. were on board. Well, since, since was didn't have something nice to say, I actually asked the, asked the guest to provide one.

I asked our friend Danny Chow, current Torontonian, a representative of the Great White North on our staff. And he messaged back, they let a hometown kid go off for 32 and 28 in back-to-back games in front of his family and friends. That's the one nice thing. Yeah, AJ Lawson, 32, 28. but he seemed to be disarrayed or dismayed that they have kind of lost track of their tank

as the season has gone on. That is a shame. But as you said, the schedule positioned them that way. This was actually identified a couple months ago that the Raptors were basically going to decide the tank race for every team in the running because of the stretch of their schedule. Now that we are here,

it's not surprising that they're accidentally winning a bunch of games. They're trying to rest competent players and they're still winning some of them. So that's just what it's going to be. Yeah. All right. Let's wrap it there.

We'll get to the second half of this, the Western Conference, next week on Thursday. But we'll be back on Monday. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll talk to you next time.