The Ringer NBA Show - Second-Guessing The Ringer’s Top 100 Rankings | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos take a look The Ringer’s newest top 100 players rankings. They discuss how the top 10 got ranked, results that stuck out to Wos, and how they ranked some of the top rookies (6:03). Send your questions to [e-mail]! The F2P game went live today! It can be found at fanduel.com/ringerallstar The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did Don Draper really buy the world of Coke? Did Tony Soprano really die? Or just order more onion rings? The finales of our favorite shows can make us argue, make us cry, and make us crazy. From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Andy Greenwald, and this is Stick the Landing, a new podcast where we'll be telling the story of modern TV backwards, one fade out at a time. Find Stick the Landing on Wednesdays on the prestige TV feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. What's up?

I'm Wozney Lambray, aka Big Wasz, senior staff writer and podcaster here at The Ringer.com. Before we get into today's show, I wanted to share a message and support of the Ringer Union. Nearly everything you listen to, read, and watch from the Ringer is created with union labor. I'm a proud member of the union myself, and there are so many of us, both public-facing and behind-the-scenes who work very hard to create the content that you guys all love. and enjoy all up and down the network. Our contract expires at the end of February, and we are collectively fighting for a new contract that addresses issues like fair pay,

like strong severance in a media world racked by constant layoffs and protections against artificial intelligence creeping into our everyday work. For more information and ways you can show support to our union, it's at Ringer Union on Twitter, also known as X. Thank you guys for your patroness.

Enjoy the rest of the show. Welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me as always. Rob Mahoney, big Waz. Wise, how you feeling after, what did you call it? A scheduled rest day? What was it? A scheduled, it was a scheduled absence.

Uh-huh. Feeling great, man. I'm feeling refreshed. I'm happy this past weekend is over. I'll say that. And yeah, I'm feeling happy to be back on the saddle. Well, Justin, you and I are not feeling refreshed

because while Waz was undergoing his scheduled rest, you and I were out here ranking players. We were in the minds creating content, creating not only the weekends podcasts, but also trying to orient all top 100 players in the NBA as we are ought to do.

It's true. But before we get to today's segment, even though Rob set us up so nicely there, We do have some business out the top. I want to get to some house cleaning. So first of all, live show on Saturday already sold out. But you, the people who aren't going could still be participants. We'll be doing one segment up front. But also, if you want to send in some questions, we'll be doing a mailbag toward the back end. We might have it set up so you can ask some questions at the show if you're there. But send them into ring your group chat at gmail.com. They could be anything. They can. could be All-Star-related. They could be about the pod. They could be about our pronunciation of

players' names, in fact, which I have to say, Rob, as I was scrolling through the email, there's one at the top here from our friend Bjorn in Germany. Sure. Can I read this to you? Please do. Okay. As a dedicated listener from Germany, I couldn't help but laugh at Justin being slammed by Rob for allegedly mispronouncing Claibor. When, in fact, he got a lot closer to the real thing. Listen here, provides a wickshenary link. Let's go, Bjorn. Here's the thing.

I don't care about the wickshenary link because these are names. I understand there's an official German pronunciation of any German name, but I'm repeating simply what Maxi Kleba has told us his name is. How he pronounces his name. My Das homie Bjorn says otherwise.

He's going to resource in this string. from the farm to table for pronunciations. Now I'm the one getting slammed. But Justin, I think you left out, you left out a crucial method of submitting questions, which is if you see Justin Varyer on the street in Indianapolis, I give you permission to accost him, to yell questions at him across the street,

whatever you want to do. Now, me and Waz, respectfully, you can come have a conversation with us. We're going to be about town. We are of the people. But I encourage you to yell at Justin specifically. do it. Shouts to the Deutsche Land. Shouts to Justin Verier. Shouts to the correct pronunciations worldwide, man.

We're right and wrongs here. And yeah, if you want to see me in Indy and just yell things at me, hopefully positive comments, you do it. This weekend is for you guys, all right? All right. Other other note here. We're off next Wednesday. We're going to get well for wellness week. So live show, off Wednesday, back the following Sunday is the schedule going forward here. Just want to get that off the top. I think that's everything, right? You guys have any more business to attend to here? Absolutely not.

Oh, it's Valentine's Day. It's Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day to those celebrating today. We are all celebrating. What are we doing here, if not celebrating our love and admiration for each other by me asking people to yell at Justin on the street? Yeah, did you get me anything to, to mess? these fences? I showed up for this podcast.

Is my presence not enough for you? No, it's not. You know what? I think I'm enough. You may not think that, but I do. And, and, Was, I think you're enough too. Justin, it remains to be seen. We'll see it. We'll see how you do today. All right. All right. So, let's get to the matter at hand here. So as Rob was alluding to, we ranked some players, a hundred of them, in fact. Rob and I are knee deep in this process, along with Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Michael Pina, Zach Kramer of the Ringer. We do this about once a month.

And I remember recently was, I Instagram storied one of the rankings, and you're like, this guy, I think it was Shea you thought would have been higher. So this whole concept is born out of a true-to-life situation here, which is Waz is going to critique our rankings. He's going to audit our rankings for us. And so what do you want to do here?

Do you have any like things that jump out at first? Do you want to go through the list and you just comment on them? I just want to make sure what are we holding as the ultimate sort of ranking factor, right? Is it reputation, past performance, what this person is doing up to date right now? What do you think is the most unifying sort of theme to rank these things? This is a great question. That's something that we wrestle with a lot honestly in ranking. Because I think every voter balances those things a little bit differently.

I would say overall, this is not a ranking of, this is not a hundred place MVP ranking, for example. This is not solely contingent on what is happening this season. It's who are the best players right now. And some of that is very recent performance, right? If a guy has a 20-game, like, heater, DeAngelo Russell makes it onto our list. That has to be taken into account. But we are taking into account past performance. We are trying to wait, reputation,

and an understanding of who a guy is and has been over the course of his career. And so there is like a prove-it factor for guys who are breaking out or young players who are cracking the list for the first time and maybe a certain benefit of the doubt for veterans who are kind of clinging on to their spots. Yeah, I kind of looked at it for me when I disagree with you guys. I think about a one-game sample, a game seven, if you will. Who would I rather have

LeBrona Jason Tatum? I think you guys know the answer to that. Or even somebody less like controversial because I talk about Jason Tatum too much on the show. Would I rather have Jimmy Butler or Donovan Mitchell

in a game seven one game sample? That's how my personal power rankings go. And I want to talk about Donovan Mitchell because immediately number 14 on this list jumped out to me and I wanted to go to I wanted to go to the

Waz Golden Rule do it in the playoffs then do it in the finals then do it again in the playoffs and in the finals but Donovan Mitchell has actually been great in the playoffs plenty of times like plenty of times like I corrected myself obviously the last two times he's been in the postseason. It's been kind of embarrassing, right? What happened against

the Mavericks, his last season in Utah, what happened against the Knicks, his last, I mean, his first season now with the Cavaliers, I think he played under what we would have expected him to play as far as his individual brilliance or excellence. However, he's had previous postseason success and also what he's done this season. And it's just like it's unassailable. The guy has carried the team. And I think it speaks to something about sort of superstar or all-star tearing, if you will. I think Donovan Mitchell is one of those guys where when you get the context right, he looks amazing.

Meaning they figured out the spacing issues because some of their players were gone. So they had to start certain guys who could shoot. They gave him the ball, and essentially Donovan Mitchell can make that work, and he can look incredible in that context. Now, when you gum up the works a little bit, and you have to be a little bit more creative in how you attack, not that the spacing and the lanes aren't so clear and so clean, I think he's slightly diminished.

But I bring that up to ultimately say I took a circuitous route to ultimately agree with where you were. But initially I saw Donovan Mitchell at 4. and I was like, wait a, wait a second here. You know? I appreciate you. I know, showing restraint with the red pen. You hovered over it.

You were ready to mark it incorrect. But you let us sell you on it. And I appreciate that, Was. So here's the thing. Mitchell was one of the biggest risers, certainly among the top half of the rankings, maybe even the top 20. He was 23 last time.

He jumps nine spots to 14 in our rankings. And I think this is when you get into the recent results driving a lot of the movement from a month-to-month basis. And we should say, too, if you're following along at home, you can find the full ranking at nba rankings. Dot the Ringer.com. And you can find the top 100 there. You can find the trade value rankings,

all sorts of fun stuff. But specifically for this top 100 today, Donovan Mitchell coming in at number 14, I think a pretty nice place for him. And if anything, he's the start. I love this, like, secondary host thing you got going on here. Just trying to help the people. It's good.

This is presented by NPR. I am literally doing my job. Well, we'll see about that. All right. Okay. But he is the start of like a next tier of guys. I think for us, Justin, it was Mitchell and Brunson. And we were trying to separate him from that next group of guards and figure out like,

how do these guys orient relative to each other? Yeah. I think if you're looking at this in a vacuum, if we made a stopping point of the end of the season or even like going into this year, Mitchell probably would have been lower because of all the factors that was mentioned the history and whatnot. But jumping from month to month, and I think the last time we did this was the top of January. So it's really a month and a half since we updated this.

We waited until after the trade deadline before the All-Star break for the timing purposes. Mitchell has had just one of the best month pluses of the season from any player. The Cavs, by the way, since January 1st, have lost two games. They are 17 and 2, practically, since January 1st. So not exactly the new year, but right after. And in that span 29, 7. five, just incredible efficiency numbers. The threes are popping off.

He's getting to the line. He's pretty much everything you'd want for him. And so, like, I don't necessarily disagree with Waz that, like, maybe by the end of the playoffs, for instance, especially with Jimmy Butler, you know, he might be bolting ahead of Mitchell. But right now in the league, like, if we're saying these are the best players right now,

I think Mitchell's recent results, powers him over him. And just for context, so we can move on to some of the notes that I had, Donovan Mitchell is at 14, directly behind Halliburton at 13, LeBron at 12, AD at 11, and directly in front of Jalen Brunson at 15, Jimmy Butler at 16, and Anthony Edwards at 17. And so that's why I zero, just the company that he's sort of keeping in that range sort of drew my eye. What would you rank that? So if it's Mitchell, Brunson, Butler, Edwards, and then it gets into Fox and even Murray and Lillard, all similar types of guards? Who would be at the top of that tier for you?

To me, again, I think if we're doing this on February 14th, it's fair to put him above the people he's above directly. Jimmy Butler barely even plays. Even when he does, it feels like he's going at regular season speed. We should flag Butler out now with a death in his. family of some kind. Like there's that absence on top of the fact that he has been absent for a lot of this season.

A lot. You know, and we have the ultimate respect for Jimmy. But again, if you're basing it off of what has happened very recently, I think it's fair. You know, I think it's fair, Anthony Edwards, who, as electrifying as he can be, he's more up and down than Donovan Mitchell is, right? Again, I think in a one-game sample, I'm personally taking Anthony Edwards, who's, you know, any Edwards and what he brings to bear on defense and his hyper competitiveness, the way he can just take over a game physically.

But on a day-to-day consistency basis, it is Valentine's Day. And, you know, we do value consistency, guys. We do value stability. Showing up. Showing up, being there, I can't quibble with the ranking. Okay. I think we even had a discussion. So after we rank these, we, uh,

the Zach Cram, our human computer, spits out the numbers for us. And then we have a meeting and we discussed them. I think we even had some movement within this little tier here in order to sort this out. So, I mean, Brunson Mitchell is a really tough one. That's literally the debate that people had to undergo for East starting spot, that second guard spot next to Halliburton. So it's tough. Absolutely.

And, yeah, we take your point was that Mitchell could be a faller in the playoffs. I think there's some guys above him, too, who are great candidates to rise. Kauai right now is at number seven. I think he was top six on the majority of the ballots this time around. And you have to think if the clipper's going on a deep run, he could jump, Steph. Yeah, it's going to be because of Kauai. He could jump even Joel potentially in this kind of ranking, right? Like, I think we have incredible respect for the kind of playoff performer, someone like Kauai can be.

And some questions about the Donovan Mitchells or, you know, like Jalen Brunson proved himself pretty well. But you want to see these stars who are on the cusp. first through the ceiling of their limitations and their team's limitations. And that's kind of what we're waiting to see from Donovan. Do you have any other notes? Did you want to talk about the rest of the top 10 first or did you want to go on, Wes? No, I got some more notes.

We can get into the top 10 because I think the top 10 is pretty, like, it's, it's pretty obvious, honestly, with these guys and what they do on a night-to-night basis. I think, you know, where you can't, you can quibble with the order and the details of the order. But, you know, the idea that I just watched Devin Booker last night close up. out of game like that this guy's not a top 10 player. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a bunch of educated NBA fans who would disagree with you.

I want to stay on Jalen Brunton, though, obviously, because I thought 15 was a little spicy. Spicy high? High. It's high. It's high. And again, I love what Jalen Brunson is doing. I love the intangibles that he brings to his team. But it felt a little spicy.

And it's maybe because I am. you know, in the freaking New York Knicks fandom bubble, having so many Nick fans in my life, and people are sending me blind items where it's like, compare the stats. And it's like Jalen Brunson and Jason Tatum. And I'm just like, guys, guys, I get it. This guy is the single most wholesome,

like, just universally understood to be positive and great thing that's happened to the Knicks in so long, like a great value signing and franchise cornerstone type of guy. But we can't be sticking him next to Jason Tatum, right? But what I would argue is that you guys ranking him at 15, Hughes closer to that New York fandom fever for this dude, than the opposite direction. And I'm curious as to the thinking.

So we're lovers, not haters? Oh, my God. What? Yeah, I have to say, looking at this from a little bit removed now, 15 over an Edwards, maybe even a fox, feels a bit much. Jimmy Butler. It's just based on recent results, the fact that he's been so dominant, he's powering the Knicks to where they are in the standings, yada, yada, yada.

And not just where they are in the standings, but a top 10 offense. And it's him. Like, it's him driving that action. Yeah. it's definitely results based more than for instance with Edwards who he himself keeps bringing up the Michael Jordan comp what seems to be every other week who clearly is destined for something probably bigger than that

I could see Edwards maybe even vaulting closer to the top 10 by the end of the season is certainly by next season but Brunson's he's proven it on the floor hasn't proven in the playoffs but he's proven in the regular season see he did kind of prove in the playoffs though Like he showed up not only against the Caz, but I thought he played pretty well against the heat, especially under those circumstances.

And he's a guy who, to your premise was, about like, who would you prefer in a game seven type situation? And I know you were talking about Donovan Mitchell versus Anthony Edwards, but like, I trust Jalen Brunson's decision making over ants right now. Oh, yeah. He's a guy who also empowers lesser players really effectively. And Ant can drive and dish. And he's improved by leaps and bounds in that way over the quarter.

of his career so far. But it's still a work in progress. And when you think about what New York does, so much of it is Brunson drawing a ton of attention and a bunch of guys cutting off of him. And he finds them really effectively. And he also, he's not the most visionary passer in the world, but he doesn't try to overdo it.

Like he doesn't try to force things. If the pass isn't there, he'll just kick out to the pretty open shooter and the Knicks will get a pretty good shot. And if you're doing that and scoring 27 a game for a top 10 offense, That's a legit top 15 type player. Bet the NBA with a no sweat same game parley from Fandul every Thursday with TNT Thursdays. It doesn't matter if you're new to Fandul or already have an account.

You'll get bonus bets back if your same game parlay doesn't win on any NBA on TNT game. NBA same game parlays are the perfect way to combine your bets for a chance to score a bigger payday. So we are looking at Wednesday night's slate in the NBA, in particular, we're looking at the Warriors. That's right. They're back. And more importantly, Kauai is not playing. So I like the Warriors minus three at home against the Clippers.

Lock that one in. However you want to play, just head to Fandul.com slash Ringer MBA to bet the NBA with a no sweat, same game parlay with TNT Thursdays. That's Fandul.com slash Ringer MBA. Make every moment more with Fandual, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit the ringer.com slash RG. Minimum three-leg parlay required.

Refund issued as non-mletrable bonus best, which expires seven days after receipt. Max refund $5 unless otherwise specified restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. So before we move too far down the list here, why don't we go over the top of the list? If only because that tends to be where we draw the most ire. So That's interesting So Yokic number one with the bullet

I don't think he's moved all season Right Rob? I don't think so I don't think so No Embed was too You like most defenders Justin Varyer cannot move

Nicola Yokic I would never dare I actually don't think I have Embed was two last time Janice Luca both jump Obviously Luca's on an absolute tear

here. Embedde was threatening all-time historic scoring records. Luke is now kind of taking the mantle from him. I think it's 34.3 points per game. It would be 16th all-time if that held. I could seem scoring more with the type of guys they brought in at the deadline. Rob, how did you rank that tier? Did you have Yana's second? So this is a great question you bring up, Justin, because as you know from our meeting, we had six voters on the panel this time where we usually have five, because we assumed quite wrongly that our pal Michael Pina who is on leave right now, on paternity leave right now,

we might want to give him this ranking off. So we had Zach Cramm step in as an alternate to fill out a ballot. And yet there was Pina, baby nestled in one arm, laptop nestled in the other arm, banging out a ranking purely for the love of the game. And so all of which is to say

we had six voters, which is unusual for us. And I mentioned that because we had a pure split at number two was. Two votes for Embed, two votes for Janice, two votes for Luca. I voted Embed somewhat out of respect for the season he's had. This is the last time he's going to be this high because of his injury, I suspect. But he's been a dominant force this season. He's been incredibly.

He probably would have been the MVP, if not for this injury. And so I kind of wanted to give him that before we start reshuffling things around. But I'm curious, how do you feel about those three and who would you have at number two between Embed, Janice, Luca? I got Luca at number two to me, just because he's just such an innings eating, possessions, eating monster. And the perfect outcome is essentially going to come out of every single Luca Donchage possession. And by perfect, I mean, a pretty freaking good Luca shot or a damn good shot by somebody else. Like, to me, like, you can't say that about Janus or Embed. in the way that Luca's able to dominate possession, dictate outcomes, and the right outcomes,

the perfect outcomes vis-a-vis the defenses, the coverages that he's facing. So whatever coverage you throw at Luca, the worst outcome of that coverage is going to be found, right? And I think Luca, and I think Steph still does this too, he's the guy that. rips up your game plan more than Janice does, more than I think even Joel does, even as insane as he's been off scoring wise this season. So to me, it's not that he's way better than these guys, but to me, he's clearly, to me, clearly the number two guy on a possession by possession basis because of the talent he's able to elevate and his ability to dominate possession. So I had Janice 2, look at 3 and Embed 4.

With Embed, obviously want to give credence to what he's done over the course of this season, but the injuries are obviously a factor. Injuries are a big topic of discussion here. Do you really move guys down just because they get injured? But with Embed at this point, it's not necessarily chronic because this is new with the knee, at least in the past few seasons. But I wouldn't be surprised if he is a completely different player, not completely different player, but a different player when he comes out of the

these injuries. Maybe the Sixers have to manage him more than they ever had before. The Sixers are still being pretty hush-hush about what exact procedure he went through on his knee. It does suggest, based on the timeline that they're giving it, that he went through, I believe, a replacement, which means that there might be longer-term concerns. That's what the injury experts will tell you. So like, these things could be more of a concern going forward, not less. And so for that sort of big picture reason, I bumped him down. Rob, let's be honest, you tend to be someone who is reticent to move things very aggressively. I mean, that's true. That is true. I will say when guys do move around because of injury, it happens for a couple reasons. Sometimes, honestly,

it's just other players proving things and the attrition of the ranking is kind of pushing them down a little bit. There's some of that in this case, Yonis has been unbelievable. I am baffled, the direction of the MVP conversation that is somehow leaving Janus behind. He's been unreal this year. Is it, though? Because here's the ESPN just, I think it's a good transition though,

because ESPN put out their straw poll, which comes out every couple months or two months, something like that. Tim Pontems does it for ESPN, where he polls all of the voters in the awards races. And it was Yokis, SGA, Janus was three. And I was actually surprised by that. But it just feel like he's getting some love.

It feels like he's getting some love. It feels like he's getting some love, but I've seen him left off certain ballots. And to me, if I'm thinking about the MVP right now, it's pretty even between those three. I might lean in the direction of Shay, to be honest with you, based on the season he's had. I think he's put together a pretty impressive body of work. I mean, Yokic is clearly a better player, as our ranking will tell you. I heard it, but I mean, I tend to agree, though. I think what's being put on the floor right now, you can make the argument.

for Shea. I don't think anybody's like, oh, when the Thunder play the nuggets in the playoffs, Shea's going to be the best player in that series. I don't think anybody would make that argument. But what's being put on the floor in the regular season, I'm sorry, the hours clocked in, the work actually put in, you can say that he's been there. And to the Janus point, I don't know. I get a vague sense that a lot of his numbers, he's being the beneficiary of this space balls era that we're currently in. Is it everybody's space balls? And a lot of to me,

Janice's numbers feel like empty calories. To be honest with you. I'm just being honest, it doesn't feel like, this is ridiculous. It doesn't feel like the kind of thing that will be replicated against the best teams playing their hardest and trying their hardest to stop

what Janice likes to do. That's just my sense of what is happening with Janus right now. If you want to ding Janus for the Bucks's overall results, I can certainly see that. And like team results is actually a nebulous part of this whole thing where it's like, I do want to reward guys who are driving winning. I mean, Brunson prime example of that, Mitchell,

the gold shining example of that. And so it does weigh on you when the Bucks are just sludgeon along, even with Doc Rivers in there, even with the great campaign no longer playing there, him just rising above not having him to just hang out on the bench. But, you know, Janus is still incredible. He's playing incredible.

There's no doubt about it. It's just I don't think anybody watches this and thinks that Janus is going to be, can be dominant in this way no matter the context. I just don't like when when I watch what lucas doing it's like this is going to be the case no matter what okay however when Janice is doing the

battering ram stuff and all of that it's like yo when they build that wall in the playoffs a lot of this stuff when people when everybody gets back in transition and Janice just has to score against a set defense in the half court I don't believe in Janice's ability to do that as in as dominant a fashion as he's doing right now. People can disagree with me. That's fine.

You're making a playoff argument, which applies to Top 100, right? This is, when we're talking, that's why I'm applying. When we're talking Top 100, totally agree with you. You have to think about that with Janus. As far as MVP goes, is it? Yeah, put them into MVP. Give him another MVP. Go ahead.

Give it to him. Look, go ahead. God knows he wants it. We're not giving it to a guy who's putting up. 31, 11, and 6 on the best shooting of his career. I think if he wins it, he's going to have damn well earned it. And my only argument as far as Janus for MVP is, I think he's much closer to one on that ballot than the back end of it.

For me, it's the top three guys are deadlocked right now. I would probably put Luca above him in the MVP voting. Interesting. But I think Janus, also because Luca's issues, for instance, playing a certain type of way. And let's be honest, like, I didn't particularly love how much the Mavs are selling out in order to surround him with so many guys because it does seem like the pressures on Rob. You probably know better than all of us. But like that also like plays in the part of value, for instance. It's like how much you're warping the team to do certain things because you potentially might be asking out. Like I factor stuff like that in all the time. And so for that reason, I have Yonis above Luca in the rankings. But for MVP, for instance, I might be more inclined. to put Luca probably three on the ballot over Yannis. Interesting.

I mean, there's a lot of pressure that comes with guys like Luca to play a certain style, to find players who fit it, to accommodate the timeline of a young star who hasn't had, basically had one deep playoff run with the Mavs so far. All those things are really complicated team dynamics to sort out. But I'm taking any of these problems any day of the week. If you have Luke on your team, if you have Yonis on your team, even Joel, who I think, you know, The reason he's moving in our ranking, to be honest with you,

is not that he's not available right now. It's that we're having to slightly shift the way we think about Joelle Embed. Right. The injuries are mounting to a degree where he hasn't had a ton of playoff success. The regular season is what he hangs his hat on. And increasingly, it's always been clear that he's an injury risk. But now if he can't even be putting together these extended MVP-type regular seasons, he just may not be on the same level

as some of these other top players and that's an okay thing to be like when he shows up he's elite but the fact that he can't always show up you have to take into account. Yeah. So Embed is at four. Steph is at five.

People get upset that we have Steph so high but I feel like this podcast is very pro-staff. One of the best players of all time. I don't know. I'm sorry. This is, Steph would be probably three on my shit. Right.

I mean, if we're being real, like, to me, the panic that this man still, still gives every single defense every single night is just scary to me. And the consistency, the diversity of how he can kill you, because you can't just load up on him. You can't just allow him to drive. Because if you load up on him, he's going to find an open man. and if you press up on him too much, he's going to take your ass to the rack and finish.

Yeah. I, I, Steph is still unreal to me. If anyone, if anyone has any questions, I refer you to the shot from Saturday to win that game, functionally.

Yeah, that's, I think that was a pretty clear one for us. Six, Shea Gilder's Alexander. Seven, Kauai jumps a good amount, unfortunately, as we're recording this pod.

It seems like he's not going to be playing tonight on Wednesday. Hopefully that's just like pre-all-Star maintenance and not anything big there, but you never know with Kauai. Eight Tatum, Duran at 9, Booker at 10, Davis at 11, LeBron at 12. I wanted to ask you a question, something that we talked about when we were doing the rankings. So we have Durant over Booker and AD over LeBron. How would you sort out those pairings of teammates? I think, again, on a night-to-night braces, LeBron is 46.

AD's better than him night-to-night because LeBron can't summon his peak as often as AD can. So I think that's a negotiation you make, right? Where it's like, when LeBron is right, he's better than AD, in my opinion. What, you know, what he was doing against Jalen Brunson at the end of the game, like guarding this guy, one-on-one and do it. It's like there are moments where this guy can just summon pure greatness. But because of his age, I think it's fair to say he belongs at this 12 range. Again, if in a one-game sample, like, who would I rather have K.D., Devin Booker, Anthony

Davis, or LeBron? LeBron James? LeBron James. I'm doing that. But if you want to talk about getting through an 82 game. season and schedule, I'm probably taking those three guys over him at this point. And so I think when you balance all of those considerations, it's completely fine to say the younger of both of those pairings of teammates is probably the better, in my opinion.

I think that's how we sorted out too, Rob, right? Yeah. Well, if anything, the argument that I was making, and this did not make it out of committee for top 100. It was rejected. I was pushing for AD over Booker. And I think that's the season AD is put together, particularly on defense,

but even in terms of how consistent he's been on offense, the passing he's been bringing to the table this season, I think he's hit a bit of a different level. And Devin Booker's a guy who I have all the respect for in the world. Incredible creator, incredible score, taking on a different playmaking role for the Sons this season, or at least kind of flashing back to the one he played earlier in his career. Really impressive stuff.

But 80 might be the defensive player of the year. He's the most important player on the Lakers to me. And he's bringing a ton to the table offensively. And I made the argument to put him in the top 10, but I was not heard. I was not heard on the merits, Justin. And someone must account for this. Not yet. But I typically agree with what Waz was saying.

I think the younger, I ranked both the younger players ahead of their veteran teammates because of them powering the regular season results. They're doing the day-to-day grunt work, whereas the guys who are older taking the time off coming at the end there and finishing things off. And I want to give KD the honor and the credit because this guy doesn't take nights off on either end. He plays pretty freaking hard on defense still, which is wild to me. Sometimes they got his ass out there at center like they did last night against Sacramento.

And he's just accepting the challenge. So much respect to KD in the season that he's having, I think he's even a bit underrated because the sons have pretty much, you know, underachieved relative to the expectations coming into the season. But when you watched him play, he's still such a focal point of everything

on both ends of the floor. And they need that of him because the Drew Eubanks thing, the Drew Eubanks thing is not working out great. And Thad Young is now a son. And the Bradley Bill thing is not working out great, right? I wish I had the numbers where Bradley Beal left in the middle of a game and what Katie had immediately after that. Because there's a real like picking up everyone after everyone's shit quality to Katie's season right now.

And he was very good last night when Bradley Beal once again went out with an injury that I'm sure will cost him out. Again. Games or whatever. Again. It's so disappointed. I will say Royce O'Neill looks good though. He's going to be playing a lot. Royce O'Neill looks spry.

Congratulations. Royce O'Neill looked like he drank a couple of sports shakes. And I will say Bradley Beal is getting Grace and Allen paid this summer because that guy has had to work overtime and he's looked pretty decent doing a Bradley Bill cosplay because he's gotten a lot of fun. And he still got an absurd file in him every now and again,

which is nice to see. Which like not only does he hit people on the head, but then he just makes it work trying to hold them up almost like as they're falling down, which is actually probably increasing the injury risk. It's just like, stop doing that. Well, Grayson Allen, not in our top 100, but was, what other notes do you have for us? Not yet, but he might be.

So, man, Kyrie at 37, that jumped out to me. Too low or too high? Because. As I said, with Kyri, you never know which direction people are talking about. Right. And I think I understand because, honestly, he's missed a lot of time this year. but when he's played, he's been fucking incredible. He's been really good.

He's been, you know, by Kyrie's standards, a great citizen in Dallas. And I just think, again, when you look at the guys that are directly above him, like Shengoon and Bonciero and, like, Pascal Siaco. Be careful. Be respectful of some of our great NBA players. I, it's hard for me to see Kyrie at 37 when you know what this guy is still capable of doing on a night-to-night basis. Like, he's still capable of carrying offense with little, if any, help on a night-to-night basis. He can still do some pretty heavy lifting.

And I get the durability factor. But the Kyrie thing, and I'm, you know, I'm not saying you guys are wrong or right. it just stuck out to me, you know, for Kyrie to be where he was at. I would say, yes, it is the injuries over the course of this season. He is moving up from where he was last time, in part because when he does play, he just jumps off the page. But it's also just, this is where history I also think weighs a little bit here. Like, if he were to just sit out the rest of the season, there's like a 20% chance there.

That percentage is going down as the season goes along. But, like, that still lingers, I think, in the background of her. of our placement here. Yeah, and there's, there's injuries, and there's guys who have missed time, and then there's Kyrie, where there is a complete history of that almost every year, and then him missing,

I think almost like 40% of their games this season so far. Like, that's tough. It gets really hard when you're so important to a team's construction, and you also miss a lot of time on a regular basis. Like, it becomes difficult to count on players like that, even in the way that, for example, the Rockets depend on Alper and Shangoon

or the magic depend on Palo Ban Kerr. Like those guys need those players to show up. And the Mavs need Kyrie to show up too. And I think the reason they are where they are in their standings is in part because he hasn't been available for as much as you would want him to be. So another one that stuck out to me

in that same general vicinity, a guy that gets a lot of ink on this podcast, Derek White, where he's directly about, like people like, Desmond Bain, Jaron Jackson, La Mello Ball, Darius Garland,

like all max contract players. And to me, it's like, in what scenario would Derek White ever draw a max contract? Right? And so it's tough for me, as much as we love him as a team first, ultimate glue guy,

superstar level role player. I'm like, can we credibly say this guy's better than Desmond Bain. Like, you know, or Chris Stapp's poor Zingis, who I'm told is the key that unlocks the next dynasty in Boston. Like Derek White above that guy. Again, Jaron Jackson Jr., like, look, he has his problems, but I don't think anybody who has a team or who's a fan base of a team would be like,

yeah, I'd rather have Derek White than Jaron Jackson Jr., right? as Isaiah's in the background saying, I don't know, man. Was, I just want to say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. There's nobody. Boston Celtics included.

No fan of that team would be like, this guy deserves a max contract for any reason whatsoever. And you can, and it's very easy to talk yourself into why, you know, Bamello, Jaron Jackson, Desmond Bain, guys that are in the age range, if you will.

And it's just like, nah, like, I'm not paying Derek White that for nothing. I would refer you to our panel of voters, first and foremost, for a potential answer to this question. I would say that I have white. Does it have something to do with loving baked beans and clam chowder? I'm from these guys.

I don't think I really reach for baked beans all that often, but I'll trust you on that one. I have white in this range, but I hear you. I would stop short of maybe the Lamello, Franz Wagner, and Darry's Garland Ranger. That's 46, 47, 48. Like, when we're getting into number twos on less good teams, that's probably where I would have white, because, listen, the plus minus is starting to become a running gag. It's basically the new Jason Tatum is however years old. but he's clearly one of the best role players in the league.

And this is where context gets in and muddles things. It's like if he was actually a number two or three on another team, would he be as good? I can see it nowadays. He's definitely rounded into a much more helpful player than he was in San Antonio, even though he was pretty good in San Antonio already. But I do think this is where the Celtics overwhelming success and maybe the makeup of our panel probably weighs in there.

He's also the kind of player that's different. to rank because he's more valuable, the less you rely on him for something very specific. If you give him the reins of an offense in the way that, for example, the Grizzlies have had to do with Desmond Bain, I think, I don't think Derek White would do well in that capacity at all. And you could make the argument that what's the difference in taking an absolute like basement dwelling team to slightly above basement in the way that the Grizzlies have done the season with Bain and Jackson. I hear the argument, especially relative to someone like White who's elevating a contender. But I don't know. I think White's value and really, really his,

what he gives you and what he brings you is the release of having to rely on him to do one thing because he does a little bit of everything. And the guys who you really want to build around, the stars of the league, are structural. They're guys who's like, oh, okay, we know what actions to run to get that guy the ball. We know how to shape our team because that guy does one thing that no one can stop. Derek White's valuable because he does everything, but he's not as valuable as some of these stars because he doesn't have that one thing.

So I think what people would ask is, what's more valuable, magnifying what a Jalen Brown type does, or being, to some people, a reasonable facsimile of a Jalen Brown himself. Which one is more valuable? I think the league thinks being a reasonable facsimile of that guy is more

valuable than being you know somebody who elevates what that dude brings to the table by being a beautiful complimentary piece right you know he's like a he's like a nice watch to a great outfit um but you know nice watch will make an outfit though are you fishing for sponsorships right now he's not the top forward suit guys just out here trying to get trying to get comped merch

trying to get trying to get stuff mail to you Are there any watchmakers out there? Yeah, how that is. We'll definitely hawk it for you on the Patreon. Well, in this range is a couple interesting guys. You did jump over Wembe and Holmgren right underneath Kairi Irving. How are you feeling about that one? I'm fine with it, man.

These are young guys who are having incredible seasons. Wembenyama shoveling the crow into my mouth. Game after game is fucking killing me. But he's just having an incredible season. It's just, again, to me, experience in big games and an ability to affect big games is different than having nice nights against Charlotte or Houston in the regular season. I'm sorry.

Like, I just value that a lot less. I think when, you know, the best coaches in the league are game planning, not only to stop what you do the best, but to exploit what your weakest at and pinpointing that thing and just smacking you over the head, yeah, I think those, understanding that that would be the case for every single rookie, every novice in the NBA, I take that into account. But I'm respectful of the seasons these guys are having,

respectively I don't know when I became a Rudy Gobert apologist I personally think Rudy is just going to be a better playoff player than Chet is

because of his experience because he's not 180 pound center but I understand the respect that you guys have given their immediate impact Justin you stop with this

you stop with this Rudy Gober slander this is a tough one after the wolves just completely blanketed the clippers and what, sang them off the court? What was happening in the back bowels of crypto.com? They were sing-song in some shit talk or whatever. So I recognize Gobert's value.

Unfortunately, my man just catches and dunks on offense. And like what Wembe is doing, what Chet is doing on the other end, just completely outweighs that. And so like I value Rudy. I am going to value guys who can do a little bit more than. catch a lob. I tried to make the Gobert case, as you know, Justin in our meeting over some of these younger guys.

I think exactly for the reason you outlined, was, which is just trusting what he can do as a veteran, thinking about who he can be in a playoff series. And also the fact that this isn't Victor Webbenyama's fault, but he's getting, I would say, a more relaxed effort from the opponents who are rolling through San Antonio. And there's a contextual difference between Wemby being the best thing going for a bad defense

versus say Rudy, who's been the headliner of the best defense all season long and has had to deal with the scrutiny that comes with that. The scrutiny. Yeah, the tactical scrutiny. I think people take the wolves more seriously than they do to San Antonio Spurs.

I think that's a fair thing to say. The vicious Minnesota media. Just tearing them up. No, not that. It's not that. It's not that. The tactical scrutiny. Yeah, from a game planning perspective. And Rudy has a reputation.

He's not exactly You know, for instance DeAndre Jordan has a specialized handshake With every single player On every single team in the NBA He's one of the most well-liked NBA Players of my life Rudy Gobert is that

Except the exact opposite Yeah, he's like the most universally Mocked, disrespected NBA player I've seen in quite some time Bizarro D'Andre Jordan is a tough That's a tough label Yeah He lives a hard life

Just eating Brie and standing by the battle and being tall. It's a tough one. And guiding, shepherding, anchoring, elite defenses. And being tall is hilarious. I will say, the clippers going small

and the wolves, and Rudy in particular, deserve credit for that. Just kind of standing tall and just like chewing that away like they were a fly was pretty impressive. So we'll see about that.

Anything else was on this list that jumps out to you? I got one last one, and that's Dame at 20, which, let's face it, as a Dame apologist, he is not having his best season. He's just struggled to find his form, his rhythm. Is Dame, the track record, like the idea that Dame Lillard can't make threes anymore is absurd to me.

The notion that this guy can't make shots anymore is absurd to me. But I think even the 20 is based off of resume and not what he's put on the floor this season. Now, I have the confidence that he's going to turn it around because it's Dame Lillard. And like, again, he's one year removed from the best year of his life. You know, but you got to consider the guy's age, the new surroundings, the, you know, the new system, the new teammates, the new all of that. And we take all of that into account. But I thought Dame at 20 for somebody who's just straight up, he's just not killing it right

now in ways that I quite frankly expected him to. That definitely caught my mind. Yeah, if I remember correctly, Justin, I think I actually had Dame the highest of any of our panel. I think there's clearly some pessimism and some skis. skepticism happening around his season, where he is at this point in his career. For me, Waz, I mean, I do trust that body of work. I do trust that he's going to be there when it matters.

And frankly, even this version, this like slightly depressed version of Damien Lillard where, yeah, his shooting percentages are a little bit down historically, still a freaking good player, still makes a massive impact in terms of the attention he draws, how he runs offense. And the shots he does hit. Like, he's still hitting at a good rate. Yeah, I believe in Dame's ability to bounce back. as well. My favorite clip of the season is Janus running around looking for a basketball,

like a mad child. And then it's like you cut to him yelling at Tyre's Halliburton in his face. And Dame is just over there on the side, completely undaunted by the entire situation. Like what's going on here? And I believe Janice's excuse was he was getting the ball for Dame. And yet Dame didn't really care or didn't really like show it on his face at least. Find you a teammate who will do that for you. That's all. That's all. That's all. we're looking for from each other is someone who will scream in the face of a competitor to get you a ball you don't even want. Well, since we're talking about Dame, who is going to be a participant on All-Star Saturday Night, which we will be a small part of, or at least pretending to be a part of

with our live show, being a prelude to the Saturday Night Festivities. Today's episode is brought to you by the Ringer MBA, All-Star Hoops Shuffleum, brought you by Fandul. Here's how it works. You check out your card with three random combination of props. You could stay put if you like your card. If not, shuffle for new props for up to five teams. If all your props are right, you win a share of $10,000. You could find it at fandle.com slash ringer All-Star. But guys, I want to talk, since we're talking about Saturday night,

I want to talk about your picks for All-Star Saturday night. Rob, I know you love some slam dunks. You love the skills competition in particular. Yes. Who's on your list of winners for those three events, skills, three point slam dunk contest? I feel like dunk contest is pretty chalky in that Mack McClung is going to be hard to pick against a crowd favorite, a crowd favorite in Indianapolis, I would imagine we will find out. But I love what he brings to the table as a guy who has a lot to gain from an event like this versus someone like Jalen Brown, for example, who like what is Jalen Brown trying to prove in the dunk contest? I salute him being there.

I would love to see what he pulls out. I think someone in the Mack McClung vein is going to win. And so I'm going with Mac. Three point contest-wise, I love, for contest reasons, a compact, replicable form. Jalen Brunson's my pick for the three-point contest. Not a lot of jump to Jalen Brunson's jumper. Really smooth release, really something very repeatable coming off the rack. So I love, especially given the three-point shooting season Brunson has had.

I like his chances there. Skills Challenge, my formula is always. always the same. Pick the team with the most big guys on it. Those are the guys who want to throw bounce passes with zeal. They're really enthusiastic to be there. They're excited to prove something. So give me team top picks. What a unifying theme. Palo Bancaro, Anthony Edwards, Victor Webbenyama. I think the bigs are going to show up. Yeah, I tend to agree with Rob. Matt McClung in the in the Hoosier State. That's a no-brainer to me for dunk contest. Three-point contest, I'm going with Tyrese Halliburton because I swear to God, I haven't seen that guy

miss a three that was uncontested the entire freaking season. And so to me, I think this is just a match made in heaven as far as a three point contest is concerned. And I agree with Rob with the top picks challenge because I think Anthony Edwards is the type of maniac who's going to take this extremely seriously. And he's going to convince Pablo Boncaro and Victor Webb-Binjama to do the exact same. So I'm going to zag a little bit from what you guys are going with. I'm to go with Jacob Toppin on the Knicks for the slam dunk contest. Sure. Couldn't tell you a single thing about him other than obviously he is Obie Toppins brother.

I don't see Brown or Hockes really doing much in this. Is Hakez even much of a dunker? I can't even remember a single dunk with Panash. She's really given us this regular season. Mack McClong, you know, it's tough to repeat. As we know in the NBA, in the three-point contest, give me the bigs. I just love a big trying to do the three-point contest, the skills contest. So I'm going Carl Towns, kind of a dark horse there.

And for the Skills Challenge, give me team Pacers because I love Indy. And I can't wait to see y'all out there for the live show. So those are our picks. Go to fendul.com slash ringer All-Star to play the Ringer MBA, All-Star Hoops, Shuffle. And that is it for us on this episode. next time you hear from us, we will be live in front of an audience in Indiana. We look forward to that. Thank you to Ben Cruz.

Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. We'll see you in India on Saturday. And on Sunday, you can hear that audio in your podcast, as usual. We'll see you. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit Fandul.com. slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee,

Vermont, and Virginia. Call 1-800 next step or text next step to 53342 in Arizona. 1-888-8-9-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. 1-8009 with it in Indiana. 1-8-2-2-470 or visit KSgamblinghelp.com in Kansas. stop in Louisiana. Visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Visit 1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia or call 1-800 5224-7-0 in Wyoming. Hope is here.

Visit gambling helpline, MA.org, or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 18778 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.