The Ringer NBA Show - Shawn Marion on Why He Never Won a Championship in Phoenix | Real Ones

Episode Date: January 21, 2021

After a quick conversation about Kyrie Irving’s return to the Nets (0:01), four-time NBA All-Star and NBA champion Shawn “The Matrix” Marion joins Raja and Logan to talk about his playoff runs in Phoenix (9:00), the trade to Kobe’s Lakers that almost was and the trade to Miami for Shaq that ended the Seven Seconds or Less era in Phoenix (45:00), and being on the Cavaliers for their 2015 Finals run against the Warriors (59:00).  Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Shawn Marion Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping real ones? This is Logan Murdoch. I'm here with Rajabelle, who quite honestly just wanted to get some stuff off of his chest. So we're going to do this Topper real quick. We're talking about the Brooklyn Nets and Kyrie Irving's return playing alongside Kevin Durant and James Harden for the first time. And the dude just straight up balled out. Rajah, what did you think of Kyrie's play? That's how you're going to set this up, huh? So, okay, I got it. Well, listen, first of all, I don't know how. I said, I don't know, I don't know what I'd know what to do. This is what we were saying. Kyrie did Kyrie things, man. Kyrie did Kyrie things when he had that ball in his hand. Like he did what you expect a phenomenal, gifted ISO player to do with the ball. He got buckets.

You know, the loss, I don't, I don't, you know, you shouldn't be losing to Cleveland and giving up as many points as you get out to Cleveland, but because Colin Sexton went berserk, like late in the game. So sometimes you're going to lose a game like that when a great player just gets hot. I'm not so super concerned with the loss itself. I do think there's some interesting stuff going on there. Like, not, not, it manifests itself on the court in terms of how many shots Kyrie got versus how many shots, you know, Kevin got versus how many shots James Harding got.

But I just think the, it's really interesting, like, the psychological, like, battle that must be going on there. But you've been absent, right? Like most people, when you've been AWOL for five or six, six, games. And you see a new guy like Kevin, I mean, I'm sorry, like James Harden come into the equation and you've got Kevin Durant and they're playing this really, really good basketball. The chemistry looks great and you're not there. When you come back, like, they're most, most people are going to just try to kind of get in where they fit in. Like, I'm not going to just completely hand you like the team. That's not what I'm saying. But like there's going to be a little bit

of like, hey, man, let me work my way into this, right? Like, you guys have had it rolling. It was not that. Like, this, like, it was almost like psychologically, he was like, man, I'm here to let these motherfuckers know. Like, this, I'm not, if anyone thinks that I'm playing the third fiddle on any given night, they're wrong. Like, I'm going to get up all of these, all of these shots.

Like, I just found that kind of fascinating, right? Because he's phenomenal. But I, you know, Kevin Durant is a better player. And James Hardin, in my. opinion is a better, more dominant player, and they're all three ISO guys. So for you to come back off of that hiatus, dog, and shoot as many times as you shot, I just think it's really, really interesting. And not to mention, like, you know, the other dudes were both contributed in terms of dimes and rebounds. And it really looked like Kyrie was there just to, like, prove an offensive

point. Like, look, dog, this is what I'm going to do. Yeah, no, I'm looking at a stat line now. dude took 28 shots, played 48 minutes after not playing for two weeks. That's crazy, bro. That is crazy. It's crazy. I respect it because he's like, no, fuck that shit. I don't care. And then I think that's what people love about Kyrie because I don't know if he's

necessarily, he might not be a top 10 player. You know what I mean? Definitely a top 12 player, definitely top 15 player. Might not be a top 10 player. But in his mind, and rightfully so, he is the best player in the league and he's going to show that. I don't care of Kevin Durant's on the on the core.

I don't care of James Hart. I'm a good mind. That's there. Therein lies the problem though, Holmes. Like on any other team and with any other like superstar, one singular superstar, like there's room for you to take that mentality out there and it be okay.

But when you put three of them together, Logan, we've seen this play itself out. and all of these big threes that we've seen, people have to give up a little bit of that. And it's okay. It's what makes you, Kyrie, to feel like that, like to feel like nobody can do what I do with a ball. And you might be right.

But when you put three of them together, everyone has to be willing to give up a little bit of that dog, or it doesn't work the way it's supposed to work. I'm struggling with this big three because it's like, this is the first time where you have, like, Alphas, like three or two MVP alphas with James Hardin and Kevin. Like, you could say that with the Warriors and stuff, but the way that Steph, like, took a backseat in a way to Kevin, I just, I'm curious to see if which three of these guys takes a backseat to anyone. Because all in their mind, they're all in their mind. They are. Yeah, in their mind, they are. But like, I mean, I don't know if this is, I don't know, at least like a math.

man like if you're if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if you're like a hundred and james hardin is 99 and karee is 97 right like there and you're asking kevin durant to give up 15 then you have a lesser number than you would have if you asked kaii to give up 15 if that makes sense do you understand what i'm saying yeah right so like right if you're going to marginalize the two best players so that kaii can be. Kyrie, you wind up lesser than you would be if the third best player was willing to take a little bit off of his plate. Like, do you know what I mean? So at minimum, collectively,

let's all take a little bit off of our plate. But it doesn't seem to be what they're, what at least one of them is interested in doing. And that's a small sample size. It's one game. I look at this stat line. I look at the stat line, at least last night, it was the person. And maybe they alternate. Maybe this is the thing that just whoever has the hot hand. But last night, you look at the stat line, it was James Hardin, man, who, took out of the took um who gave up the most right who who sacrificed his game the most last night he only took 14 shots had a triple double you know what i mean sorry i got the little i got the little i got the little oop playing right now because i'm looking at the stats sheet but um

i'm curious to see if it's a revolving door of who um sacrifices their game like are we going to see one game where kevin has like 19 but he has 10 rebounds and 15 assists or something like that. You know what I mean? Like who does? Or does Kyrie say, oh, I'll just take, just have 15 tonight, but also give you 12 assists. You know what I mean? It just James has a hot hand.

I'm curious, man, because all these guys have had a mindset of like, yo, I'm going to, I'm the guy. I am the guy and never had that, that challenge. This guy's going to be, look, it's going to be really interesting. And you may have a point, like they may be good enough together as. people where they can all like just rotate that responsibility from night to night. What gets lost in the conversation a little bit is guys like Joe Harris that are there that are used to getting a certain amount of looks up.

And does that marginalize his ability to kind of contribute the way he needs to for the contract that you paid him? Like you expect, you know what I mean? Not like you just can't really get enough looks to really be of the value that you think he is to your team. And I really, Steve Nash has not asked me. I've had no conversations with him. but if I were in their camp right now,

I would say, hey, we need to get a handle on this to the point that Sean makes in the pod. We have to define this to some degree. Like, we have to define it and nip it in the bud. It can't be something that kind of festers. And, you know,

Mike D'Antoni's approach was really hands off when it came to offense. And he let kind of people do what they do. And, you know, Steve learned from Mike. And I just think this is one of those times where you can't just leave this alone and let it grow. You've got to kind of define it early

and put people where you need them and then let them grow in that space. Don't just let it grow wild. Yeah. And, you know, we'll see what happens, man. But I do want to get to tricks right now. We got Sean the Matrix Marion on the Real On's podcast, man.

Tap in. It was a really good episode. It's Bobbin Real Ones. It's Logan Murdoch here with Roger Bell. Who brought us to a special guest. Roger, you want to introduce your guest, bro? This is one of the coldest nicknames ever in the NBA. It's got to be, I don't know what, top three for me probably.

Sean Matrix, Marion, welcome to the show, bro. What's up, guys? How y'all doing this morning? Good, bro. Hey, look, I know Logan's ready to start this off, Tricks, but I'm going to go ahead and break the ice, okay? I was in the front office in Cleveland, probably two years retired, right? You were on the team, went to the finals,

was a pretty cool experience for me because I had never been. But what I want to ask you, it has nothing to do with none of that. Can you please tell our listeners how I used to cook you in one-on-ones like during my lunch break? You don't even believe that.

Look at you. You don't even believe that. Oh, bro. How I used to come out there in my church shoes and get buckets. He used to come out on the Spary Top Siders and just washing tricks. That's what he's saying.

That's what he was saying. No, but, you know, It was great times So he ain't cooked shit But no But you know It was a great time though man Like we know we

We are kindled man Actually you know what Raja actually helped me get back in the shake My got when I got hurt a little bit too though He was just you know what I'm saying in there And it was just keeping it was keeping some sanity for us You know what I'm saying? That's for sure

Yeah So how was how was Raja as a teammate before he was a watched executive? Like was he Was he how did how did you guys meet and how was that during your time and during the Sons? How were you guys as a team, man? How was the locker room with Roger Bell in it? Oh, man, listen, you know, one of the things I think,

Ross contests this and not going to contest that. He knew what kind of player I was, and he knew when I stood up in the floor, I was all about business. And same with him, though. It's like you have a sense of, you just have a sense of, man, a direction of what guys, what kind of lane guys going to when you were teammates with And like we, it was ultimate respect because we were true competitors.

You know, I think, you know, and, and Raj didn't back down for nobody. And I loved it, you know, and what, what happened was it was just, it was just, and then we actually had a, we had, it was cool because we and Raj had a good chemistry also off the court because we love, we both love fashion the time too, though. So we used to fuck with each other about that shit and all that type of stuff. But like, but like it was, it was, it was just a great, a great, a great, a great, great, a great, a great bond because of the instincts we had

and we was able to play off each other and feed off of that. And when you were able to do certain things like that, you know, versus me going from, we was able to switch a lot of the same defenders, same size defenders on the perimeter. And it was just the communication was there. You know, it was one of those things where, especially against certain players,

he used to phone them to me. I used to block that shit. And it was just like, it was crazy how it worked out. But like, man, it was a great, it was a great, there's a great bond that we head out there for. You know what?

That's interesting that you say that, Tricks, because I talk about when we're talking about defense a lot and people are talking about individual defenders. And my stance on that is you could be a gifted individual defender, but you're only really as good as the support that you get, right? Like, and you got to have people talking to you and you have to have, you know, a shot blocker telling you which way to bring them. Like, you know, that's what ultimately makes teams great defensively.

I want to ask you a question, tricks, because like, as it pertains to the Brooklyn Nets, right? And this is kind of the way I see their team. You know, Steve, we're both close with Steve and he's coaching that team. You were always a guy that I thought had to make maybe the biggest sacrifice at times on our son's teams in terms of what you could do with the ball and how we played the game. But you did that pretty selflessly for us to win games. How do you see like the Brooklyn Nets with the three ISO guys that they have and talk about how hard that is to like want to continue to be that perennial all-star and do what you know you could do but having to maybe sacrifice a little bit for the betterment of the team you know man it gets to a

point of what do you want do you want do you want personal accolades or do you want to win you know i think um no when you when you when you sit in your mind to buy into the concept and buying to the team you you you fall into the team and um like you're you're you're you're put yourself above the team. And when it comes to that, I think, it comes to a point in career. Like, how many scoring titles do you need? How many all-stars do you need? Do you really want to win right now? Because if you win in, typically, you still get the same stuff. You might not be scoring title, but you can get the, you can get the other accolades. All the accolates come when you win it. Everybody gets rewarded when you win. So, like, I mean, I don't know.

It just depends. Some of these guys are just so selfish, they don't want to buy into a team concept at all. It's all about them, them, them, them, me, me, me, me. So at the end of the day, it's all what the mindset is. And do you truly, truly want to reach the ultimate goal and win championship? And that's what it boils down to. Was there a time, tricks where you had to have that about face moment, where you were like, you know, because every player when you grow up and wanting to be, you know, that guy, did not to say you weren't? But do you, did you have to have that face moment where like, okay, my stats might dip a little bit,

but it's for the greater good. Did you have to have that moment? You know what, man? Yes and no. I think being that I want to win, man, I could care less about all that stuff at times. But I know if we're losing, well, like, I'm going to say something. I'm going to feel a certain way because I feel like I can be doing more and I'm not getting able to get a chance to do more. And now I'm like, okay, now I'm questioning myself.

You know what I'm saying? But if we're winning, dude, like you can't really argue with it because I'm winning. You know what I'm saying? So, you may get mad sometimes. and if you don't get to shine the way you should have been able to shine some nights here and that. But it's part of it, though.

But for the most part, you're gonna shake that shit off because you got, guess what? You got another game the next night. You know what I'm saying? Or two nights away. So you can't dwell on it too long because the more you start to dwell on something,

the more it starts affecting your game. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, when you win in, man, and everything's going gravy, man. Man, I could care a lot of stuff. But when you, if you are a true competitor, though, and some people don't really understand that aspect and that mindset,

if you're a true competitor, like, like you feel like you, you, you're able to do, you want to do so much and able to do so much, but you can't. Like, it's, it's, something blocking you, something holding you back. It was like, it's a tough feeling to go through that because, you know what I'm saying, especially if you're not winning. You know what I'm saying? If you win it, everything is a lot easier to swallow, you know what I'm saying?

But then, you got some of these guys that's so self-entitled sometimes and they don't care nothing about them, but themselves. They care less if we win or losing, long as they get in their shit, you know what I'm saying? You've seen it. We've seen it now. We've seen guys, you know what I'm saying? in the last, you know, three or four years, or you've seen some guys raped around like,

oh, yeah, I had 60 points or I have 50 points, or whatever, but they lost. I'm like, what the fuck? Who cares? You know, like, it ain't the same generation it was. You know, I mean, I felt every loss, you know what I'm saying? Especially the more you out there helping trying to, trying to give it your all, and when you step on the floor and you're embedded in the team,

you're embedding the goal and you see the bigger picture. Like, when you go out there and you feel that, I felt that loss. You know what I'm saying? When you feel that loss, man, like, it's a big difference. You know what's interesting about that for me? It's not even really a question, but it is interesting, right? Because, like, Tricks, when you're just out there to score the ball, sometimes you're not as invested in the win, right?

Like, the type of player you were was all encompassing, bro. Like, you were filling a stat sheet. Like, you were out there to board, to defend the best player on the other team. Like, to run the lane, like, to do the shit that translates into wins. you're going to organically, like, have more invested and feel some kind of way when you lose, I think, because you're pouring more into it than just being out there trying to get buckets. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, of course.

That's why you got to hold people accountable. But because, like, you know, like, with somebody, with somebody, I was doing, I was doing an interview. I mean, people asked me questions last night. I was on, I was on clubhouse last night. And I was in there for, like, I was in this room for about two and a half, three hours, talking about the game. And everybody was asking me all these questions and stuff. And I was like, and about guys not playing defense.

and all of the other stuff. And I was saying, like, you know, like when you, when you, I mean, guys are getting all this kind of money right there. It's not, you're not getting, you're not getting 30 or 40 million dollars just to score. You're going out there to lead your team to victory. They want to see you win.

They want to, that translates into, they want you to help this team win and translate it to wins. It's not just about you getting money or you, just because you get to get 25 or 30 points tonight, just that's it. No, they ain't it. No, we need to do more than that. You know, we're paying you to, you know what I'm saying,

we want you to be a part of this team and help this team grow it. And we want to surround it around you. or we want you to help aid this team into what direction we're going in. It's not just for you to go out and just get 30 points and don't do shit else. You know what I'm saying? Facts.

You want somebody to lead, bro? Like that, you're paying for leadership, not just that. Yeah, it ain't got to be vocal either, though. I mean, some people are quiet leaders, though. I play with guys that are quiet leaders. Man, at times I was quiet at times, you know what I'm saying? But for most of probably, when I need to say something, I said something, but everybody, when you got a good team,

most people, the majority of people who are actually the started, especially the starters, if you got a great group of guys, everybody say something. So you will say something. I'll say something. You know what I'm saying? Steve will say something, you know,

here and there, you know, and it goes down to a certain degree. But it's like, how can you say something if you're not doing it your damn stuff, though? You know?

Yeah. People know you as a part of the, the, the 04 to 08 Phoenix Sun's era with Steve Nass. But you actually were played with Jay Kidd before that. And, you know,

I remember, you know, I was young and seeing you at UNLV and being like, This dude is really, really good. Probably a number one pick in a 99 draft. But it just because I feel like you've said this before, like because you went to UNLV being on towards the West Coast, there was a bias there.

Do you think that was ultimately a gift for you that you did follow the Phoenix Suns, whereas, you know, going to another organization? And how was it going to the Phoenix Suns during that time? You know what, man? You know, I think things happen for a reason. It was a reason why I went number nine to Phoenix. I think it was meant for me being Phoenix.

And I've said that numerous times based off of the history and how it lined up. You know, but I got to tell you this, I'm not, I wouldn't change anything for the world, man. Everything happens for a reason. You know, I've been truly blessed. I grew as a person as a player in Phoenix, man. You know, I grew with the city. And, you know, they know that and I love them for that, you know what I'm saying? So, I mean, I can't, they understand that this is a business.

business too. And I think they don't know about a whole grudge from me for what happened and how everything unbuilt. Me not being there right now. But at the same time, it's not my fault. I didn't do anything wrong. Every day I stepped into the arena, American Airlines Arena at the time,

it's America West now, whatever it was it. No, it's chalk towel now. Yeah. Every time I step into the arena, they knew I came, I laced them up. You know, I want before, before, what did say, Roger, before I pulled in, I was shown, when I pulled in the arena, I was Matrix.

That's right. Matrix, Tim, right? Matrix, Matrix. Matrix here. Yes, he is. Yeah. Did you,

so I'm from the Bay from Oakland and J. Kidd is a legend there. You know what I mean? And we saw him, you know, grow up at Cal and then onto the league.

But what was it like playing with him, man? What was it like playing with him in the running gun style and playing with him early on? You had the blonde, J. Kid. I mean, listen,

J. Kidd is a special guy, man. And, you know, I get this question. acts all the time of comparison between him and Steve. It's not comparison, man. They're two different type of guards. And when you look at it with Jay Kid and how he played the game, man, it was totally different than Steve, the way Steve played.

You know, and Jay Kid was one of the guys I was telling him last night again. Jay Kid is one of those guys when I played with him. He was like, man, you know, I said, I ain't got to push this every time. You get it. You take it and go. I was like, okay, okay. And Jay Kid was one of those guys. I honestly say this, though. When I went, I could literally go to him like, man, we're going to win this game.

you know and like in the way i said they though like he can turn up another notch and and do things on the floor that a lot of guys can't do it for his side because you know jk it was six six six you know what's saying yeah you know he's a big guard you know what I'm saying so like you know he he's six five six six and um he he was a walking triple double dude like and like like the things he's able to do it's like it's easy for for so me like if i like it's got times where i'm like man i need you to take this guy for a minute because like i was me and roger used to switch back in the day jk kid i can switch with jk kid because jk kid can guard a big or small fort, you know what I'm saying?

So that, that communication alone was, was something that, you know what I'm saying? You, this is really rare, you know, saying for guards to do that, you know. And these days, guards ain't switching with no small fort. Yeah, it ain't trying, unless they're the same size, unless they, unless the schemes now is to switch everything, whatever. Other than that, ain't no point guard, guard, no small fort, unless he ain't doing anything.

Unless he just not, unless he just out there to slash. Unless they hide in them. Yeah, unless they hide, basically. Yep. Yeah. Tricks. So the game when we played in Phoenix for the most part was like 90% old traditional sets. And we were one of that 10% of basketball that was like getting up and down, wide open, you know, pace and space type of type of team. It's like the style now. Everyone plays that style. But it's taking it to the next degree, dog, where your offense is literally running down no passes and we're into a pull up three because analytically that's.

that's the right shot. I like to ask former players. How do you feel about the way our style has been taken over and adopted by the league and then enhanced to the point where there's very little anything going on? Well, you see the growth in the talent level of the league expand as well.

You know what I'm saying? The guys, these guys are doing things we weren't thinking about doing, you know what I'm saying? And you see the skill set is totally dope, dope. But the thing is, though, with that being said, though, it's starting to glare a lot of inconsistency when it comes to certain nights.

You know what I'm saying? Like, some, you see it. You see the nights where some guys, some teams are winning by 25 points, and next night they lose it by 25. You know what I'm saying? So that's the, that's the pros and cons of that, to say, I can agree,

because right now, then, how many teams are actually focusing in really trying to play defense right now? Like, I understand the guy, the skill set of these guys, and some of these guys is really good right now, but some of them don't even make an effort to play defense. You know what I'm saying?

It's more, it's all predicated on, like you said, it's all on legs right now. Everybody is like, man, like they get them shots up in three or four seconds. It's not a game, you know what I'm saying? So there's so many intangibles you think about when it comes to looking at the game and trying to compare apples to apples. You almost can't because the skill set is totally different. And we don't have traditional bigs no more anymore anymore now. All the bigs now are shooting threes.

Right. So the bigs now, point. guard. So all that stuff comes into part, and it just, it just, it just, it just part of it, man. How, how was the, the beginning of that era when you, because you go with, uh, when you go with Jason Kidd, um, he gets traded away. Was that, how was, was that, was that, was that, was that tough for you? How was that, um, I had, had, um, man, I mean, J.K. had a great relationship, you know what I'm saying, we was, you know, saying, we was starting to, I was starting to come into my own, you know, and he was, he was a big part of.

that, you know, and then, you know, you move him out here and you bring stuff in. So I had to, and I had another readjustment period where I had to get no stuff and get their relationship right. But, but, you know, it's part of the game, man. Things happen and you got to adjust. And, you know, it kind of suck a little bit. But, you know, like I said, things happen for a reason. So that's why we ended up back together in Dallas winning that championship. Yes, sir. How to, was it was, don't rub that. Don't rub that in nobody's face, bro. Don't do that. I was a low flex right here. That was a young little flex.

you know, it sucks because I feel like we should be able to win one in Phoenix as well. But, you know, that's what pissed me out more than anything. I wouldn't able to bring Phoenix a title. All right. So I wanted to ask you that, dog, like what in your estimation, because you wound up getting one, right? Like, and you've been on another team that went to the finals with Cavs. What stopped us from ultimately getting over that hump in Matrix's estimation in hindsight? I think adjustments, man.

I think, you know, and the last, everybody keeps speculating the year that Mariam got suspended was the year we're supposed to win a championship. I didn't feel it that year. I felt it the next year. I felt it for the next year.

I felt it in an area we lost to motherfucking Dallas when they went to the final. That was the year we wasn't going to championship. That was the year. That's what I say. It is. But the narrative that the media creates was like all the suspensions.

And I'm like, man, bullshit. I'm telling y'all know shit about basketball. Like, that's the thing, though, the narratives that the media creates, that everybody eats it up and everybody, that's the first thing that everybody comes out of everybody's fucking mouth. You know what I'm saying? They don't know everything.

They just, they just speculate and they have an assumption. They don't know shit. Most of them never played basketball. So at the end of the day, we lived this and we walked this. So we got to, we got to express this.

We get to say this. We live this. We know the feeling. Like, I didn't feel we could win a championship that year. I'm just being honest. And I, in regardless of what happened or not,

we still should want that fucking series. But that wasn't, that's not my sake. You know what I'm saying? Because at the end of the day, if you go back and look at what happened in that series, what happened in that series? So Amari,

Mari and Mari got suspended Mari and Boris, right? Was Mario and Boris got suspended again? The next game, we had it home, right? We was up, well, we was up, 15, 20 points at hal time. I had like 25 first half. I don't get but one shot

the fucking second half. So like, and that wasn't nothing they did. That was something we stopped doing. So like, like when you were a team, everybody talking about about the adjustments or what somebody's doing and not doing, hey, you're a coach.

You got to make a fucking adjustments, man. Like, it's your duty to go out there and see what they're doing. what the team is not doing, not doing. Yeah, don't get me wrong. The players can see it too, but at the same time, the players are only going to do

what you're telling them to do to a certain degree. Especially if you ain't, in the position we played and we didn't have no say so and what was going on, really. All we had to do is go out and do our job,

but we were we totally do. So, I mean, because everything predicated on Steve doing everything for us. So, like, that's the difference. You know what I'm saying, when you got one guy who got the ball

and he gets to dictate what's going on, who gets it and all that stuff, don't wonder everybody said we was predictable. San Antonio was the first thing they come up their mouth. When you go back and look at the stuff, you know, a lot of the coaches and everybody would be like,

oh, we knew we were going to be in the playoff series. Y'all are predictable. All y'all did was do pour out one end. Marry's going to screen and roll with Steve and he's going to probe until he finds something. And all we're going to do is space guard, y'all. We ain't have no movement on the perimeter. We ain't cut back to another that stuff.

So, like, we can have no other thing going on besides sitting around and looking for three-point shots. That's all we did. If we weren't in picking a row with Steve, you wasn't getting it while. He was like, shit, we're going to let these two guys beat us.

These two guys ain't going to be five. Two on five is not going to be, beat us. It's just what it is. And that's the game. It's just so simple. Like, you've got to make adjustments.

You've got to see it and take advantage of it. And we act like, we act like, people act like boo-boo the fool and don't want to say it. Like, stop it. Like, I ain't got,

I ain't got play ball and see that shit. Yeah. 100. Listen, I took confirm, just to double down or even, you know, not that you need to hear this,

but Tim Duncan was on three weeks ago and talked about that. And I asked him real pointedly about was their strategy to let Amari and Steve eat and make sure that no one else ate by like staying home with us. And he confirmed that. Yes, he confirmed that. It's not a lie. Listen, I know the game. I'm like, dude, we got to do all this stuff.

Like I went to him. And this is the part I hate more because I know the game, dude. Like my, it's the reason why I'm able to do certain things on the floor. You know, my instincts, you can't coach instincts. I'm sorry. It is what it is. And you know that wrong. You know, you can put players in their purpose positions as you want,

and you can tell them to do this and that. You cannot coach instincts. Either you got it or you don't got it. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to try to put you in the best position as possible, but you can't coach instincts. So naturally, I was always naturally gifted to have instincts to steal, to get steals, blocks, and all his anticipation was one of my best, you know,

saying best things. And I was able to do a lot of things out there. That's what prevailed me to have such a longevity career. But at the same time, though, I actually learned a game too, though. I knew I saw things happening before they happened. I anticipate, my anticipation was real. Like, I mean, like, I can actually, I was one of those things.

I did some of the stuff that Kobe used to do. I ain't never did a sit down and talk about it, but like I actually can watch film and see myself playing the, playing that, playing exactly how it played out and what I could, what I could do differently when I'm watching film and trying to, trying to help myself, help my teammates. But guess what, though, some of the stuff I didn't have to do because guess what, we had, we had, I was, I was,

my role in the team was to go out here and do everything everybody was wasn't going to do. So at the same time, but I need to score at me. Of course, I need the score at times. But if I ain't had to score 35 then I wouldn't go. I wouldn't leave the opportunity to score 35 at night. It just wasn't in my cars that night. Sometimes it was, sometimes it was. But that's how it unfolds sometimes.

And when you want to win, you don't care. You know, you're going to buy into whatever the schemes are and how it is. And that's how you got to play the game. Did it frustrates you that? Because, you know, the pundits. during those years were like, you know, the sons are predictable, the sons are that. There is one, you know, the adjustments and the defense and things like that.

Did it frustrates you that there was confirmation that y'all went out that way? I mean, this is a question for both you, tricks and Roger. Yeah, look, man, yes, there were, it's frustrating anytime you lose when you think you have a chance to win a championship. Like, when you've invested the type of blood, sweat, and tears that you invest across the, you know, the course of a season, You're going to be frustrated when you lose anytime. But, yeah, I would, I would say what tricks is, what tricks is saying.

Look, and it's, it's tough, like, it's tougher for Sean than it is for me. Because, like, I didn't have the anticipatory skills that Matrix did. I would second what he's saying. Like, Tricks actually saw the game at a different level. It's why he's able to create all of that havoc. And it's why you get the nickname Matrix. I was a spot of shooter. You know what I'm saying?

So, like, my role was going to be different. regardless. But it is tough to watch a series kind of play out when we're doing, you know, the same thing, you know, all the time. And you feel like, to Sean's point, like, damn, like if we're winning, I'm cool with this shit. But if we're losing, just run a little something different and let us help you. You know what I mean? Like, if you just call a quick action for like, I don't know, for me, it would be like some kind of pin down action. Like we had elbow two down and we had quick and stuff like that where you could just bring somebody for a quick shot or you might get the big on the slip after you come off of it,

just to get a little movement and get me involved or Sean involved or anyone else involved to try to help supplement the offense. Yeah, that could be frustrating. I mean, yeah, I mean, I, when you sit there and you listen to that at times, I'm like, yeah, I mean, listen, it is what it is, you know, it happens because everybody, like I said before, the media will create the narrative and we're going to soak it up. So, all of us of that, you know, I never really bought into that.

I tried to to own up to whatever whatever is we did do or what we did do as a team. You know, and one of the things I hate it, though, like, you know, for me, you know, so for me and my position I was in, you know, like, you know, as much as I heard, Raj, I heard you know, saying, give me my kudos on somewhere. I heard you talking about it on something because it got shot to me. And, and like you said basically what we didn't finish, don't work without me. And most people who know basketball know that. That's not a brain. Because, you know, and people, like, this is one of the things people don't really know. Like, so it was, it was brought to me in the way it was.

I wouldn't really crazy about going from the, from the small forward to guard and power force. Because at the time, Power Force is the most dominant position in the league. Them guys are 30, 40 pounds heavier than me, man. I'm like, dude, I'm only 6, 7, 220, 22, the 3rd to 3rd. Dude, like, do y'all realize that don't even sound right? You know what I'm saying? Just think about that, though. And these, I'm saying, this is the most dominant position in the league at the time.

Positioning the league at the time. So now you having me do this, but I was like, fuck it, can we win at this? I wasn't, because Roger came in on the second year, you know what I'm saying? After we, because with first year, it was, it was Q Rich and Joe, you know what I'm saying, and me and Marry and Steve. So, but what happened was, you know, I was like, fuck it. Let's, let's go for it. Let's see what happens.

You know what I'm saying? I was like, you know, because I'm a competitor, though. I'm like, as soon as I might tell me something I can't do, I'm definitely going to prove you wrong. I can do it. You know, you give me an opportunity. I'm going to prove your ass wrong. You know what I'm saying?

So it's just that simple. And a lot of people don't know this. I played point guard in junior college, though. So, like, I had ball handles. I just didn't get an opportunity to do that stuff because our team wasn't cared for that. You know what I'm saying? And you know, you don't even going to get comfortable when you get

the opportunity to do this stuff on a consistent basis, though. You know what I'm saying? So you got to get a steady diet or something in order, in order for they died to work. So when we, when we send me, that thing about all the intangibles that went on with the team and how everybody gets to speculate and all this stuff. Like, I was like, fuck it.

You know, I mean, what's the worst can happen right now? Man, we took off. And, I mean, when I say we took off, we took off, man. And nobody could adjust to it, though. Like, because at the end of the day, you know, most of these guys, they had, they couldn't go small ball with it. Because every time they went, if they went small ball was, we really torched their ass.

So they had to put their bids to try to get some kind of, try to get the rebound in edge if they could. But shit, they weren't doing that because I was in that motherfucker. So, like, you know, it was just like, like we was just, man, we was just able to do so many things. And I hated that our defense didn't get the credit to deserve because our office was so high power. You know what I'm saying?

We were going, you know what I'm saying, runs where we score, you know what I'm saying, 15 and 0 or 20 and O real quick. And it'd be like, oh, oh, what defense was played? Like, nigga, we didn't, we ain't got five, we ain't got 10 stops in the row. What you mean? What defense is? You know what I'm saying? So they ain't, to go on a 20-0 row, to go on, I mean, a 20-0 run.

Guess what? They ain't scored until no 20-point run. You know what I'm saying? So, so somebody. So somebody's doing something right. You know what I'm saying? So all these things. Like this is the thing.

This is the common sense of the game that people don't really anticipate or no, man. Like we're just, everybody's speculating just whatever they see. I'm like, it's a different kind of mentality when you were in them trenches and you're on that court doing that stuff, man. Roger gives me shit for this all the time. I was, I grew up a, grew up a Lager fan. Right. And so, yeah. I grew up.

Oh, yeah. No, that was one of our first conversations in life was, hey, bro, why you do that to that motherfucker? Anyway, what was the, you talked about that year being the year you actually thought that you guys were going to win a title. But you guys had to come back 3-1 against the Lakers. And can you talk to me about that series and how- Listen, hold on. Oh, you know what? I don't know what I'll tell you this is crazy.

Rob, remember this. We played the Lakers one more time before the season was overwinned. So we had beat them three times that year. And for some reason, coach and everybody, like, we want to play Lakers first round. We got, we had our, we had a choice of who we want to play in first round and playoff. The motherfuckers want to pick the Lakers. So, like, we lost the, we lost the, I was like, man, we lost this, we lost the, we lost the last game against them. I think Steve set out that game.

Steve set out that game. We lost. And we should, we could have won, but they were. making sure we didn't want. I think I had like 35 or something that game, but I had about 25 as well, something like that. We should have won that fucking game. We know what I'm saying?

We could have won it, but they want to make sure we lost so we, so everybody, you know, that's, I mean, I'm being honest, though. Like, they want us to lose that game so we can play Lakers first round of the playoffs. So guess what? All that bullshit talking. So we get down three, one of these fours stuff in the series. I was like, well, I was like, we know we're totally beating this team, but like, one of the things about the NBA game,

games, you know, post seasons, you got time to make adjustments, man. And things happen, you know, injuries happen or, or something just don't fall your way. And it's no guarantee you're going to, just because you beat somebody in regular season, don't guarantee you're going to beat them in the playoffs. You know what I'm saying, the same way. You know, so, like, it's a different ballgame in the postseason. And that's what happened. And we got down three, one of those guys.

And, like, you're talking about you. When did you know y'all were in, like, when both of y'all know, like, oh, shit, like, this could be. fucking fucked up. Well, we were all on some bullshit because you're right. I have forgot about that Matrix. We actually, like, in our camp, we were talking about we wanted to play the Lakers. And, like, only me and Tricks will really feel this way because we were the ones who had

to guard that man. Like, we're like, yo, no, that's, yes, no one wants to do that. Like, we don't want that shit. But if you remember Tricks, you remember where we stayed as the Suns team whenever we went out to L.A.? Like, if you, what hotel did we stay at 90% of the time with the Suns? Rich, wasn't it? Yep, we stayed at the Ritz, Marina Del Rey.

That series, we stated the lows out on the beach. So we treated that shit like it was like a vacation. Yeah, hey, well, it was on the beach running and shit. Yeah, we were out there whaling. You ain't lying. Like, and that's where it started. Like, our focus, like, we thought that was going to be a cakewalk. Everybody probably but me and tricks, because that, you could never think it was a cakewalk,

Guard and Cove. Like that was, and I want to ask your opinion on that, but like everything else about us was suggesting to the team, we were just going to roll the Lakers.

Wait, wait, before you get to that point, is L.A. one of those cities, L.A. is one of those cities, right, where you just,

you've got to be locked in because, especially during the playoffs, because there's so many distractions, right? And then y'all on the beach and shit, when you're supposed to be

Guard, Co. Is that, is that city different? Yeah, go ahead. You can see the tone and the mentality. The mindset that quick changed. You know what I'm saying?

The mindset, that quick change. When you went from being in the same place you was because that was your focus and you know what you was out there to do versus I'm out here to hang out and have some good dinner. You know what I'm saying? Have some wine and kick my feet up and put my feet in the stand a little bit, you know? Yeah. Hey, look, so was it, was it, Logan, you probably know that series, man, better than I know. I know that series. Was game won the overtime game where Kobe, where Kobe hit the shot?

or was that game two? Game two. Oh, yeah. That was, no, no. So what happened was game, game two was when he dunked over Nash. Game four was when he hit the game winner in LA. Yeah, but I think one of the early games didn't, like, Steve get trapped on the sideline, and he comes down to his the crazy layup to send it into overtime or something like that.

That was game four. That was game four in L.A. And then, because I put them up, I put us, them up. 3-1. 3-1, us. Hey, tricks. Talk to me about guarding Kobe. Talk to me about, like, what that was like,

because you and I would share that responsibility some nights, right? Like, but they also had L.O. And I couldn't guard L.O. So you would, you know, like, that was a hard one for us to switch, but you guarded in plenty. Man, you know, it was tough, man. You know, Kobe was that guy. You know, I was like I said,

he was the closest thing to MJ by far. You know what I'm saying? So, like, you know, shoot, of course, he was a challenge. But I can say this, I, when I was able to get, a great position on him and now he's not able to drive past me. I'm able to contest his jump shot. Hey, I mean, it was, it was pretty, it was pretty tough him to get shot off on me, you know, and he hit something here and there,

but he'll shoot, I mean, when he, hey, sometimes there's better offense, you know, so it's great defense, but sometimes it's very offense. You know that, you know what I'm saying? It is true. But I just loved it, though. Like, I mean, and he loved it, too, you know what I'm saying? And he used to talk about it. He used to say it all the time.

And I got respect him for that, man, because, you know, one of the things, you know, you knew when you came to play us, And, you know, he came, because I had been playing before you, O'Raja. So, like, he had given me my kudos and stuff prior to, prior to us having the battles like that. He knew once he came to finish, he knew he had something to reckon. He knew I was going to, I was going to late. He said I was ready to play as well as he's ready to play. Anytime he played against the Suns at times.

So it was cool, man. It was a nice little rival we had. And I loved it. I loved it. I loved every bit of it. So that L.A. Staples vibe in the playoffs is. unless you've been to it, it's really hard to understand what that's like, walking out there,

Kobe on the other team, all of the beautiful people in the front row. Like, and, you know, it's a vibe. So I want to ask you, top five, top five atmospheres in the NBA for Sean Marion. Oh, garden number one, though. I got to give the garden. Apple is nothing like playing the big apple, man. You know, there's so much history when you walk in there. And, you know, I can get just playing, I played, I played a tournament in the forum.

So the forum ain't the state of the center. So it's totally different. But it's still great. It's Hollywood. I mean, you know, but like you go, you go, Apple. You go, I mean, LA is dope. I mean, you know, one of the best, craziest places to play back in the day was Arco Arena. Oh, playoffs.

Yes. Cowbells. Oh, my God. It's nuts in there. Bro, you couldn't hear nothing at halftime because they're stomping on the. Yeah, they got the cowboy. They yell. Man, it's crazy.

That shit is off the chain. Then you go. Then I would say, you look at, oh, okay C OKC OKC is loud as hell do like and like if you

you ain't played in the postseason area you don't know it is loud as hell in Oklahoma you know and I was this they got some and then

then Portland Portland got some loud fans too in there man it's loud as hell in there but uh then I would

the last one will probably be I mean Dallas is pretty dope though the fans are loud in Dallas too you know what I'm saying um you know

Phoenix is loud too when we was doing our thing but I mean I remember this now of the ones recently that I got a chance to experience and was one stick out more than another. Phoenix was loud. It's held in the postseason as well. But it's not the same kind of loudness as you've seen some of these other rings

because they're done differently. All the arenas are different done are made differently. So all of them have a different feel in them. Yep. Arco. Not Arco, but you said Arco. What's the damn? What was Golden State called?

Oracle. Oracle. for the finals was a whole different animal too. Yes, yes, it was. It was. You know, local, Toronto Toronto is wild too. Oh my goodness.

Toronto was just, wait. Hold on. Hold on. Go ahead. Go ahead. I covered the Warriors for the last, until the last title, not title run, but the last finals run. So when they played in Toronto, Toronto is the best city I've ever been from. It's the best city.

I was doing it. All right. You know what? And nothing to do with basketball, but yes. Oh, of course. Of course. So why you say that, Logan, guess it was when I played, there was 14 to one ratio. Ah, okay.

Hey, listen to you. Let's chill. We'll talk about that in a minute. Anyway. Well, I want to get back to Kobe because you were talking about, you were talking about him a little bit. One, you guys could have played on the same team at one point in time, right? Like there was, you were trying to recruit him in 2004, and I remember, because this was early YouTube days, you had said something like,

yeah, man, Col was trying to trade for me. Let's go. What's up? What's up? Tell me how, if it almost happened and like why it almost happened. So, so, um, it was a situation where, um, where, uh, basically, you know, I was looking to get extension and, and look at different opportunities, you know what I'm saying? And you get to a point where it was, certain things was basically dwindling them down,

especially in Phoenix. And it was like we couldn't, we wouldn't see an out of the time. You know, so it's just part of the business. And I felt a certain way about certain things. And, you know, that's the way I felt. And so I had me and COVID talk. And I reached out to him. He reached out to me and stuff.

And he was like, how can we make this happen? Because of the money situation and all that type of stuff, all these intangible and stuff. all these intangibles and stuff. And then he was like, it didn't come to light because it was just, it was just too many moving parts and part of it. But like, like,

if I was a pre-agent, it probably could have happened. You know what I'm saying? It was, you had to get, it was a situation where you had to get traded to the, like, yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Because, you know, you get to a point where, like, I know a lot of people, we say this, but like, when you,

in the trading process, though, sometimes you hear your names in a lot of trades. It's not saying the team is trying to trade you. But what happens is, though, like, somebody throw something out there and if something they feel like it can be

upgrade or or a movement in a different direction, they got to look at it. They got to explore it. Regardless if they want to or not, somebody calls in office for you. That's a good thing, though. No, it's not a bad thing. It's part of the business. But they wouldn't necessarily looking for trades, but it got to a point where it was so many things going on inside and like a lot of people think they know shit and some

this stuff I've heard people say, some of the people that was up in front office that's on TV now. basically full of shit, they lying, continually lying. You know, that's a thing, though. Like, people lie all the time because it fits their narrative and it fits, it makes them look good,

you know what I'm saying? But it's a lot of things that went on behind the scenes that people don't know, especially when I got traded, you know what I'm saying, from Phoenix to Miami. And people,

and the truth were never, like, people, people don't ever want to say the truth, though, like, until, until way down the line or somebody. What's the truth? Because, listen,

I'm gonna keep it a buck, tricks. I was with Leandro Barbosa, So you know that like the little movie room off of our locker room, in between the locker room and the training room in Phoenix. It was right to the right. We're watching a heat game. And Shaq is sitting up in the stands.

And L.B. says something like, hey, man, Rajah, man. He's not playing, man. And I'm, who trades for him? And I'm like, yo, LB, I don't really know. He's injured. Like, you know, I don't know who's going to trade for Shaq at this point. Like, just kind of saying it out of the blue. And then, dog, it was like a week later.

nobody said shit to any of us. Like, they executed a trade. And we were like, like, that was doing awful. I still don't know. Like, I'm like, what happened? Because I got traded. You got traded all Super Bowl night, right? So I have a bone to pick with you on that.

I want you to finish your thought because, like, I ain't get invited to that party. Like, I have my own party over in Paradise Valley, but only because I ain't get invited to Tricks's party. But any, I digress. That's fucked up, man. That's fucked up. How did you, what happened with that tricks?

Because I still don't know. So, so, so remember, that's that summer. Remember I came out and asked for a trade before the season started, remember? Okay. Remember, I was like, you know, I think bygones let be gone. It's time for this marriage to be over with, you know, as simple, we wasn't doing the things. I felt like we needed to do to win.

Like, that's the point. Some of the questions you were talking about, he was asking me, because remember, Roger, we used to be frustrated a lot about a lot of things, you know what I'm saying? And, like, we felt like we can do more or wanted to do more or didn't get an opportunity to do it. like like damn you just basically setting us up to fail we like you know what saying and I'm just like how can you how can you

maintain that and manage that but that is what it is what it is that's part of the business and stuff so like listen it wouldn't know it wouldn't know hard feelings it is what it is but what happened was I got a call about uh I got a call I mean it's actually doing Super Bowl I was having host of party in my house I mean like I got traded that rosal wasn't invited to yeah the house party So the house party I was having, you know, it was, everybody was, everybody was there, too. Who was there, Matrix?

Who was there except me, bro? Who did I miss? It was, it was crazy. But, like, it was like, my man, Dan called me. It was like, you've been traded to Miami. I was like, for real. It was like, yeah, I was like, what the fuck? I mean, it's like, it's like half time of the Super Bowl.

I'm going there. I'm like, oh, shit, you know, this is turning into a going away, a farewell party, too. I was like, what the fuck? I mean, like, it's part of it. Don't know about I want to be traded doing the fucking middle of the year, you know what I'm saying? Because now I got to pack up and get all these other shit and go get all that stuff, you know, but it is what it is.

So I got traded and they threw Marcus Banks in the deal because of the money needed to match up with Shaq. Shack was making more money than me because, you know, he got that grandfathered in a big, big time contract. So Marcus came with the deal with me. We both went to Miami. And yeah, I mean, like, I was like, really. So what made them pull a trick on that?

So I was told that it was basically like Dan Tony. I mean, I'm not Dan Tony, Colangio, and everybody was, they basically had a choice. He said, like, if you do this, you're basically are not doing a small ball anymore. Once you make this trade, it's not small balls gone now. And such and such. And there was some other things that went on. I'm like, I don't want to tell certain things,

but some of the other things went on behind the scenes. and certain people was, it was certain people in that room that had a say-so in it, and they was like pulled the trigger. Certain people, certain people. It wasn't just them, put it that way. It was more than it was at least ample guys in that motherfucking room. And that's what they pulled the trigger. And what happened?

I was like, okay. You know? Oh. Okay. Okay. Well, I was it. Listen, at the end of the day, you know this, Rob. I'm going to be candid and honest about this right now. When you, when you, that guy, and I was that guy for a majority of my time,

in Phoenix for sure. And in other places, I did have a say-so on what was going on. I knew what was going on. We all know what's going on. You know what's going on. You know what's a certain degree. You ain't just caught off blue or in the dark.

And you know this being in the front office. Rock, right know this shit. So, like, it ain't, there ain't no secret. Most of the top, the top team, you're the franchise player. They're paying you fucking money.

Listen, we think about bringing this guy in. We think about trading for these pieces. It's that, it's that simple. And stop, and people who act like they don't know, full of shit. You know what I'm saying? or they don't want to know or act like it, you know what I'm saying?

And that's the truth. So that shit got signed off on is what you're saying. That shit got signed off. You know it got signed off on. You know that. And you know that too. And you was like, oh, because you know, what's the patient you did make? Ooh.

Oh. Oh. What happened there? They got a little on them. So that's what happened. So y'all didn't did this really? Yeah. I thought I was a part of this too.

Why y'all didn't tell me? Why you didn't let me have a say so in this? You know what I'm saying? Lightweight, like I always felt and you just, you know, that was the end of what we were doing there. Like when that happened, taking nothing away from Shaq, but what you were doing and building, you've just committed to like pulling that apart now. That's what that's what that is. Yeah. I was playing in the finals, man.

Like, I know what is like covering a couple finals. It's a different energy. But you were going up against the big three in Miami. They said they're going to win four, five, six, seven. and eight titles. Y'all are just a blimp in the radar. You know what I mean? Like, y'all just, yeah, y'all the nice story of the playoffs.

But, man, we're not checking for the Mavs. What was it like for you going to that finals against that team? And how confident were you guys going into that finals? And listen, you know, I had to tell this down because I feel like every year everybody got expectations on teams and what they're going to do and not do, right? The media creates those narratives and we eat them up. You can believe, and everybody got to pick a favorite, basically, in each series, right?

Everybody got a favorite. So, like, oh, I think Boston will win this series. Or I think, you know, Cleveland won't win it, whatever, whatever. So throughout that run, man, we wouldn't favorite in any series we played. And we finished, I think we finished fourth to fifth in the Western Conference that year. You know what I'm saying? And the West was pretty stacked. And we beat, so you think about the journey, it took to get to the finals that year.

We'd be Portland first round. I think Portland, I think Portland was the deepest team in the playoffs that year, besides us. So, so they could have easily, if they beat, they went to the finals two as well.

So, so with that being said, though, then you go, we played them, we beat them four two. We swept the Lakers, and we beat O KC

in the Western Conference finals 401. And then we beat the Miami Heat in the finals four two. So, like, we, we control our destiny. We can care less about

what the media was speculating and saying, you know what I'm saying, like, we knew what we was capable of doing, and then we went out there and did it. And like, like, it's easy to sit there and say this and that. But we was the best team in the finals that year, I mean, the playoffs that year. Like, we showed it.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, when you sit there and you want to, you want to harp on this and harp on this and how about this and do that, it's always, I hear all these stories about, oh, this guy, oh, he didn't have a good game in Nile. He didn't do this to Nile. I'm like, why couldn't it be the other team made him not do that? Well, he took him out of everything he wanted to do. Why couldn't, why can't, why can't that narrative?

to be the narrative. Why? Oh, they wouldn't let him do that tonight. You know what I'm saying? Why I got to be like, oh, he wouldn't, oh, he wasn't his self to nod. He was this. He was, I'm like, what the fuck is that?

Did you feel disrespected? Like, when they were talking about, when they were talking about, when they were talking about, like, LeBrona's quit instead of like, no, man, we played him really good. Who said that? I don't think you just quit now. I mean, no, no, I mean, no, I'm saying that's the media.

What I'm saying, tricks, is that's the media narrative that is out there. You know what I mean? Everybody, that's, that's the media everybody, I was going to argue about all different things. Matrix, what was that game plan? Because, like, y'all had, I was at those games. Like, you remember, I was back at the crib.

Like, so I was coming down to watch the games. Like, you all had him stymied, like, at that point in his career in terms of, you know, like what he was going to do to get buckets against what you guys were doing defensively, right? Like, you're- We created walls on him, man. We know, we know. So one of the things we all do, Scott & Reports, we know what God's tennities are. And now at that time, it was so much, it was so much, it was so, it was so, it was so enlightening

so and so on whole other level now because now, with your scouting reports now, they, we could tell them, we could tell exactly how, how much he go right, how much, how he's doing when they go left, all these, this more of a thorough breakdown on guys now. And when you listen, you're paying attention, you're watching it, you're, when you get in filmed now, like, and how they were able to do it in, but on iPads and going on phone, you go home, so you can study everybody's, guys what they're doing what they don't do. Like, are you, and if you are a, a guy like me, a competitor like me, hey, you're going

lock in, you want to stop this stuff. You want to do all this stuff. You know, I know it's a little different when you have to do with yourself physically because some people physically and mentally can't do both and it just is what it is. But you got to work what you can work with. But I'm the competitor of com, the competitor I am. I'm going to lock in and do this. I'm going to stop this.

And people don't love the people to know if you know this, Roger, because you was at the games and you got to see this stuff. You know, for the first two games, you know, I was on LeBron and I, you know, people don't realize that they, like I guard LeBron the whole time. I went to D. Wade, man. D. Wade was a big matchup, big mismatchet for us because he was able to post up and he was able to post our guards up. And he was a handful down there. So I went to garden D. Wade more than I did LeBron.

You know what I saying? I started off from LeBron. But I, I migrated over to D. Wade because he was, he was, he was, you know, he was doing shit out there in that pain, you know. But like, we took the things that he wanted to do away from him. Man, listen, when he got to, when he got in. transition, man, our guy, we put those walls up. We put those arms on. He couldn't go by ass us, man.

He wasn't getting those dunks and layups like that. I always found that kind of frustrating at times. I mean, it was part of the gig matrix, but I want to ask you about it. Like, as the premier defender on your team, when you've got a LeBron in check, so to speak, right? Or like, I ain't saying you stop and stopping, stop and stopping them. But, like, you've at least got that under control. And then now D-Way's going off.

and you got to go over to go get D-Waid and put that fire out. And when you go over there, LeBron catches fire again and having to like bounce back and forth like the frustration level at times, though, because you're like, damn, I'm putting these fires out. They keep popping up. But you know what? I mean, it's crazy you say that, but he has such a deep team. I didn't have to do that too much, though.

Like, and not on that team, not on that team, not on that team, Matrix. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel what you're saying. Hell, yeah, that's hard. You know what I'm saying? It's a tough mentality to be in when you go up with one guy to another guy. Because once you get your, we get locked in on this one guy, now you got to adjust and try to lock in on this guy and get his rhythm and catch the vibe from him.

Because, like, yeah, it's tough. It's not easy for anybody do that. But who actually doing that now these days? Like, you got these guys ain't nobody defending like that no more. You know what I'm saying? So, like, they don't even take the chance. And everybody's talking about, oh, he's a great defender. Man, these guys are playing, guarding people,

one and two possessions, and that's it. You know what I'm saying? Oh. Like, yeah, I'm like, oh, are you getting, I mean, like, come on, man. Stop it. What was it like going into, you know, going to the finals again in Cleveland and, you know, going up against the first Warriors team to do that? What was that like? What you mean?

What was that like? Shit, I was over there with a with Roger. We was watching together. What was it? What was it like to have a front row seat with the homie? Who out here lying? Sandy busting your ass. Yeah.

Oh, we was getting it. Hey, my pregame, people was coming to me like, damn, Sean, your pregame workouts are ridiculous. I was like, I ain't playing. So I'm going to get my workout out here. So, you know, it just is what it is, man. You know, I was, it was a, it was a special ride, man, got to, got to witness that, you know, I think, you know,

in all fair aside, though, this is how I broke down that finals. And I think about our team and what we used to everything. I think we still got beat them. We played our bench that series at first year we go 2015. I think we went. I'm not saying that Errigna Kaki anything.

I'm telling you, we play our bench. Me, Mike Miller, we got guys on their bench. Brennan Hey, well, we got guys on their bench that can actually contribute to this series.

Like, we go into, we play our bench that series, even with Kareen and Kevin Love go down, we win that series. Because the tone that LeBron was able to carry out there and we was out there, we was out there,

we were doing, Deladope, Dele was doing this shit, you know, J.R. Bimon. Everybody was contributing, but like,

Bob's got, everybody was, but we didn't, we still, we only had like a six-man rotation, six-seven men. It was like,

it wasn't, no, we wasn't subbing nobody. So, like, we didn't play our bench at all. We're sitting there with, you got, we got,

we got all this, we got all this, we got all this pedigrees. We got all these pedigrees sitting over here on the side right now and, and just like, why wouldn't you want to,

why wouldn't you want to win a championship this year? I didn't, I didn't understand that. You know what I'm saying? So, it didn't happen. the next year they go. And see, that's the year they shouldn't have won.

You know, I think I should have flipped flop. I think Cleveland should have won 2015 and Golden State should have won in 2016. Did you foresee, like, the dynasty that was about to happen then? Or did you think, oh, they just got one off and, you know, well, they got a chip this time. And did you see something like 73? I mean, I don't know if you can foresee Kevin going there,

but, like, did you foresee this dynasty when you played him? Actually, no. It's fine. No. We couldn't have I see that. You know, saying it was, you know, it was a team that got hot in the playoffs and they made magical run, you know. And the thing about Golden State, when I look at them,

and I love watching Golden State play and the things they did was special, special. Because I look at our team in 0-4-05, and I look at what we was doing. All he did was add movement with it. And like, like, don't even go into there no deeper than that. You know what I'm saying, like, this is the thing, though. Like the game is this stuff is so simple and easily. but people got to break it down a way for people to really understand

and grassy. If you go back and just look at film and look exactly what they were doing and the same thing we were doing basically, but they put movement into it and then they made, they made up, they made the power poor position, which would probably have been me, the primary, you know, I'm saying facilitated, but, you know, I'm getting bucket stuff. You ain't been playing it being playing off of me.

I'm busting your eyes out. Would you have wanted to play on that Warriors team? Like prime, prime tricks. How would it, how would it, have been. Listen, the way they moved the ball with their team, the way, man, who wouldn't want to play with them, man? Like, they were special, man, like, come on now.

Man, when you get a team with guys who's actually like this moving the ball the way they're moving the ball. And it's just florence, you know, it makes it, it makes everybody a weapon out there in the floor. And that's what makes it some more special. That's a great little segue for me because, you're talking about ball movement. And I started with the nets. I'm going back to them because I think it ties in the,

you being like and knowing kairi uh and being in a locker room with kairi and he just like i got to know him a little bit tricks like that year i was in cleveland with you right like i'd have to take him you know and fly down to see dr andrews about his knee and stuff like that so we have private moments where i got to know him a little bit but he never really let anyone all the way in like or me all the way in you guys probably got to know it better because you were in the locker room like when i you know i've watched him for a few years and and and He still seems like he's not really willing to really step up and lead lead. And you don't have to agree with this or not, but that's my point.

That's my take on it, right? And so I'm curious now, like, if that's not what you want to do, but you're still like an alpha and you don't really want to, like, hop in line and kind of follow, like, how does that work in Brooklyn? Because they need that ball to move. And you came back from, like, six games off and you shot 28 jacks with, like, two assists. You know what I'm saying? like how does that how does that work and what type of dude is kairi man because i don't really know him

you know i said like i said we know we played i played with the guys that are are vocal i say i played with the guys that are silent and you know and some of them do both you know i'm saying some of do a little contrasts of both you know i play with carrie carrie i mean i was a great guy and great team me when i played with him cleveland you know and like we all got stuff going up the court and and and some of us deal with everybody deals with the anxieties or pressures of this basketball differently and and tangibles in life differently, everybody, everything. So with that being said, though, I think, you know, at the end of the day,

it starts with your coach, though. So, like, it's a trickle-down effect. So it's a big, big point that the coach makes sure everybody knows their roles, understand what, and know what they're supposed to do and stay with those guidelines. So, and then it trickles down to the players as well, though. So he definitely, it's players, play, I'm not playing a partner, but it starts with your coach first. Your leader, your coach sets the tone, sets the mindset, the mind,

frame, gives everybody their roles and what they post do, not do. And it's this job to make sure that everybody's doing it and follows suit with that. And then it trickles down. So, I mean, listen, they have a unique situation up there right now. They got three guys that are pretty fucking amazing. And who's a defensive coach there? They got to play some fucking defense. We know they can score.

I mean, like right now, and KV can play defense, you know what I'm saying? I mean, KD can guard. So, like, you know, even James can go. Carrie can too, all three don't can go on. So, like, it's up to them to buy into and they really want to do that. But right now, in the regular season, I mean, like, the question is, though, like, they can't, one of the things you can't do, you can't keep turning things off and turning them on and off. So either once you turn it on, you got to keep it on, and you can have a little setback.

But there's no, there's no on and all switch for a lot of these teams, no. more like that. You don't have that, you don't have that luxury no more, you know what I'm saying? Because all the teams are so close together. And sometimes, some kind of these teams turn that shit off, they turn their switch off and it can't turn back on. You know what I'm saying? So that's the truth. Yeah. I think, I think also, like, offensively, you could see teams maybe flip a switch from here, from here and, like, from time to time. Not everyone could do it. I agree with you 100% tricks. But defensively, you don't do that shit. Like, defensively, it's got to be a built-up thing so you're always on your game.

Offensively, like some nights, but defensively, you got to be solid. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it's time to get to Rerwinner the Week. Rewan of the Week is a segment where we shout out an entity, an organization, a person that was just real this week. I'll start it off, then we'll go to Roger, and then we'll go to the Man of the Hour. Tricks. My first, my real one of the week goes to Asia Wilson, who got her statue. the ACE's front court MVP at a WNBA just got her statue at her alma mater at South Carolina that's big

on MLK day it was it was fire so shout out to Asia Wilson real one of the week what you got that's dope that's dope my real one and you hit it you all say this is like really interesting is one Kyrie Irving um he's my real one dog because whoa I don't I told you all before I didn't necessarily agree with the way that that shit worked out in Brooklyn where you're not communicating with anybody. But in terms of what real ones means, right? Like, keeping it a buck, like, I do shit the way I want to do it and you're real for that. Coming back after that damn hiatus and getting up 28 jacks last night and not deferring to anyone, it's a real one shit. Is that a compliment real one? It's a compliment. Bro, you, listen, you came in that thing saying, listen, I don't

give a damn who's in this. I'm as gifted as any of you all, and here I go. Man. Killer. Hey, killer be killed. I ain't mad. You know what, man? My real one, though, I'm going to shut off my, one of my protegees right now. My little chef, I've been, you know what I'm saying? Grooming a little bit. Chef, tune, man.

He actually launched his website this week, man. And, man, like, he's putting that grind in. And I got to give him credit right now, you know what I'm saying? And that's what's the website? What's the website? ShowMe catering.com, I think. Yeah, yeah. Boom. That's the boy I saw on the grill out back at looking over the lake,

sheffing it up. Yeah, yeah. You're okay. Yeah, I'm going to shout him out, man, because he's, you know what I'm saying? He's doing the guy to do. He's staying on that grind, man. You know, it's a grind to get to you where you want to be in life, man. And a lot of people don't want to put that work in no more these days. Everybody wants to expect to be given to him. So, like, he's doing it and he's going to stay after.

He's humbled and he's hungry. Real one. Real one. That's real right there. Thank you so much, man, for coming on the podcast. man, that has been another edition of the real ones. You can check us out on Spotify, wherever else you get your podcast. You can also listen to the mismatch

with Kevin O'Connor and Chris Vernon and group chat and The Answer with Chris Ryan. Also, check out R2C2 with CCC Sabathia. Patrick's is laughing at me. Valayo legend. Valetio Legend. He out here laughing at me because I'm just trying to pay the bills.

We'll see y'all next. week.