The Ringer NBA Show - Should Every NBA Team Have a Draymond Green? | The Answer

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

Seerat and Kyle get together to share their reactions and examine the cognitive dissonance around the Draymond Green punch. They discuss the ramifications it may have on the Warriors, and the misconceptions fans have about aggressive incidents between professional athletes, while also touching on the importance of having an emotional instigator on your squad. They then talk about other players who exhibit Draymond-esque characteristics and name some teams, including the Nuggets and the Jazz, who could use that type of spicy energy.(19:12) Finally, they share some personal anecdotes involving heated emotions on the basketball court.(46:20) Hosts: Seerat Sohi and J. Kyle Mann Production Supervision: Conor Nevins Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The time has come to get ready for the 2022 World Cup. And what better way to prepare than by revisiting the World Cup's most amazing goals? I'm Brian Phillips. I'm making a podcast about the history of the men's World Cup, told through the stories of 22 iconic goals. The show's called 22 Goals. It's out now on the Ringer Podcast Network, and we're having so much fun. Welcome to another season of The Answer.

Today we have Kyle Mann, friend of the show. Loki Instigator, y'all might not know it. I can see him in front of me. He is just wearing what looks like the comfiest hoodie of all time. It's got these soft, friendly eyes, and this nice beard. And, like, you know, you guys all hear his voice. Emphasis on soft, very soft, friendly. Eh, you know, the beard is.

Nariating all your favorite basketball videos. And I'm sure he seems like the nicest guy. in the world but you don't want to test it so we're just jumping right into this right so we're just has anyone tested you today no one has like stepped to me today um i mean should should we say up front i mean i don't i don't want to like jump into this as if there's no precedent for why you know right or no reason because we we're going to talk about like aggression today right so like so right away i think that i should say this about you know seyrit and i met for the first time in l.a it's been like a month ago now, right?

Yeah, exactly a month. So we meet and we're talking, and one of the conversation things that I told over dinner was, people I think generally, and this is people that are meeting me in my 30s, are kind of like, Kyle's really mellow. Like, that's generally what I get from.

They're like, even keeled dude, you know, just laid back, whatever. I'm wearing a drug rug for God's sakes, right? Is that what that's called? You know, some people call them drug rugs. Baha's joking name. Anyway, so, yeah, I was telling you guys stories about, you know, we're talking about playing basketball because that's still a big part of my life, always has been, never really stopped.

Like, I still, you know, I'm always playing. I love to play. Love it, love it, love it. But the thing about me that people never expect is that I am an aggressive person on the court, very aggressive. I have had times in my life where I have been very confrontational. uh i like to win if i feel like people are screwing up i might you know say something uh i like to pick people to battle with like to like say i'm going to set out to like compete with you but the first thing that i told them was a story about somebody um saying that i was some guy

like switched on to me like basically implying like oh you're older i'm going to take a break this dude who was like a younger guy and i took that really personally and just went after him he called me poppy and i got really mad he called me he said what's up poppy he said what's up poppy and i was like i'm about to bury this motherfucker and i went wild so anyway that's why we have you on today i'm not a great player but i'm an okay player but we yeah do you want me to launch into the russian mike story no not yet no yeah we'll save that for a little bit later um right now i just you know i think this this uh you set it up great because we're going to be talking about draymond green today. I don't think that there's anybody at the ringer who's better suited to to get into

the psyche of Lundraemon Green. And the general sort of the relationship between sports, the NBA, and aggression and physicality, and when that line is overstepped than you. And this is, this has been an interesting story for, it's been developing for the last week or so. And we're not going to spend too much time on it because, you know, I think everyone has kind of talked about at this point. But one of the things that really stood out to me is just like, this is a hard one for us lay people to try to calibrate in our own minds. You know, every once in a while, there's a story that happens in sports that kind of comes up against our real life morality. Like the morality of sports comes up against a way that we actually do things on a day-to-day

basis. And that there's definitely the situation with Draymond Green. I think when we all saw the video, it kind of up the cognitive dissonance there. I was at dinner a few nights ago. I was talking to a Warriors fan, and she asked me this really good question. And it was basically just, why can't we seem to collectively decide whether or not this is a big deal? Like you have heard every single thing on the spectrum. This has been a very enlightening week for me personally, just as somebody who has never been in these types of situations, and probably actively, actively runs from them.

You're a trash talker. You kind of, that was something we kind of bonded over a little bit. Yeah, I save it for the court, you know, I save it for the court. But in real life,

you know, as we're talking before the pod, like I'm, I'm a five, six girl. If I try to, if I try to talk shit, it's still just like,

people think it's adorable. They think it's like, cool. It's like, oh, like, what, what an interesting surprise? I didn't think you were spicy.

I was like, oh, it's like, okay. Like, I'm never, I'm never going to get punched in the face for talking shit. You know what I mean? Have you ever come close, though? How close have you come? I've been nearly punched many times. Like, I've had several that, like, I've had several situations, like, and this goes into kind of the reaction, I think, that we both have kind of comically observed from different

walks of life, different people who have been in these types of situations. I've been close to what to the situation pool was in many times and gotten out of it. But I was curious if you had. Probably not after junior high, you know. I definitely, I got into some fights when I was a kid. And then I smartened up a little bit. You know, it's, it is, you're right. It's one where it totally depends on your experience, how you feel about it.

And in the NBA world, there's this sort of thing right now where this is a, the biggest deal in the world. Steve Kerr called it the biggest crisis the Warriors have faced, but also like simultaneously in different moments, has tried to act like it wasn't a big deal, and that if the video never came out, they would have handled it internally. Like the company line from the Warriors essentially is just like, this is unacceptable, but also we kind of accept it. Like this is we're forced to accept it. We're going to have to re-earn our trust, but we're not going to suspend him at the same time. So it's a weird one. Obviously, Steve Kerr has been in this situation, too, like his practice scuffle with Michael Jordan, which obviously was not, you know, it didn't

get leaked, but it's one that we have all, you know, talked about a lot. And it was also interesting to me that there's also the subsect of the NBA and also the Warriors and Kerr, actually, to bring it back to him and Draymond that seemed, I don't want to see equally as offended by the fact that the video leaked, but pretty offended at the video leaked. And it was, it was hard to tell. Like, Kerr had a moment where he said, he said no comment about something and he was, he was really angry. And then he had to kind of walk it back. And he knew right away that people would interpret his anger as being towards Draymond, but his anger was actually about the fact that the video leaked. And I think it just comes down to the fact that, like, there are different rules in sports because

different things win in sports, right? And that's ultimately. what this like comes down to for for the for the players and the coaches right like having things leak out of a practice is bad for the teams like the word trust has been has been used in both both the both these scenarios but it seems like the leak um is a bigger breach of trust than draymond's you know fist connecting with uh with pool's jaw there right like those are that's something that we see happen in sports or that people who work in professional sports see happen in sports, but that type of thing leaking is pretty unprecedented. So like there seems to be way more surprised about that than there is about, you know, the punch itself, right? Yeah,

and it's, and it seems, I was thinking back about you've made the comment about Kerr and the, in the Jordan fight. And it's funny, he said that it didn't leak, but I'm, I mean, I'm a little older than you. And I remember that story came out, if I'm not mistaken, pretty quickly after it happened. Like, I mean, I feel like we can, and it just speaks to how. Sorry, I mean a video. Sure, sure, sure. If there was video of it, that would be different. But we knew it happened.

Nobody denied it happened. And it's interesting how the world has kind of changed since then. You know, I mean, that was 1997, 1996. And we have moved towards this world of trying to be more vigilant about policing, you know, these types of wrongs that kind of slid by in the past. And we would say, do the boys will be boys thing and just kind of laugh it off and move along. Within basketball, it does seem like a little bit of tension is permissible. Right. Like, and we know that, like, Draymond is a specific case. And I think that you spoke to it. I think the reason why this is,

the reason why it's unacceptable, but still acceptable is that Draymond just has leverage. Yeah, he has a history with them. He's somebody that gets. He's somebody that gets. He's, it's away with more even on the court in his aggressiveness in the way that he talks to people and the way that he talks to officials and the way that he talks back to Steve Kerr. And Kerr has the right temperament for that a lot of the time. But yeah, I think that he's able to have that kind of leverage. And I think that's true just across all walks of life. Like your leverage really dictates your value to society. And this is like cruelly unfair in a lot of situations. Like people do terrible things in some situations and we all, their value.

you to us they have leverage because we're like well we kind of like what they do like prince apparently was horrible i've heard stories from people who like new people that worked from him for him behind the scenes and they were like prince was a monster to the people that he worked that worked for him and we all just kind of like man i love uh i love little red corvette man i want to hear it live you know we kind of overlook things depending on your societal leverage right yeah i don't I can't hear about that. This actually reminds me of a story that I, you know, somebody who's working for for the reps association was talking to me a couple

years ago about the different players that referees like and different players that referees don't like. And I also think that there is, in sports, a respect for aggression over passive aggressiveness as well. Like passive aggressiveness, naturally it pisses most people off, but it really pisses people off in the sports world, like where there's a need for directness and also just there are so many cameras being pointed in all directions. But what this person was essentially telling me was that people, like, reps and people who

like work in the referees association actually love Dremont. I'm sure this isn't a blanket perspective. This is maybe just his perspective and, you know, some of the people who talk to him. But they love Dremont because. When he's on TV and he's yelling at you, like, he is very clear that, like, that's what's happening, right? Like, he doesn't necessarily come out of that situation looking good. You might actually have some sympathy for the refs and you're going to look at that situation. Most fans are going to look at that situation and say, you know, unless you're a Warriors fan,

like, he needs to stop yapping at the referees. One of the players they really don't like is Chris Paul. because they feel like Chris Paul is always trying to show them up. Like, you remember that video that went viral a few years ago of Paul, like, fake laughing and then, like, just turning the other way. It's a meme. It's a legendary meme now. Yeah, yeah, that meme, yeah. That's the type of thing that they really don't like because it's like,

you're just trying to pull one over on us and look smarter than us on national television, and that's just not really cool. Yeah. Propose of nothing. It just reminded me of, you just reminded me of that. Yeah, it's like, it's an interesting. thing because like there's a there's a level of directness that draymond operates with like i think i was listening to logan and raja and and logan basically called it like the uh the draymond initiation

right like everyone kind of goes through it where he might say something that you might not necessarily like that's just kind of who he is and at the end of the day like you know the warriors they love him they say he has a heart of gold so they also give him the benefit of the doubt for that reason but also they really really need draymorf In a basketball sense, they do. In basketball sense, yes. Yes. I don't know, I don't know that that's not why they suspended him.

They don't need him for the regular season. I frankly don't understand why they didn't suspend him. But in a playoff setting, if you look at the Warriors roster right now, they are much better situated to be able to replace, you know, Steph Curry with Jordan Poole than they are, you know, anybody who could back up Draymond. That's a take, right? There you think that you.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Like, let's let's not. No, no. Hey, no, I like it. I like it. Let's let's let's litigate this a little. No, I think it's, I was going to ask you, which, which into the floor do you think he is like more like irreplaceable? Like which, which into the floor you think is way more important for them? Because he's important on both. People underestimate that. Both sides of the ball. He's really important. Yeah. When he was injured in the regular season last year, like that, that offense did not look good. It was, it was disjointed. But at the same time, I think that a team with Steph Curry. and Jordan Poole and Clay Thompson and Andrew Wiggins is going to figure it out on offense. It would be a different configuration. It wouldn't be quite as beautiful.

Other people would have to go into more playmaking positions. And I don't want to underrate Draymond's playmaking ability by any means. This is all just to say that on the defensive end, they badly need somebody like Draymond. Like he is a source of all of their fuel, you know. Not to say that the rest of those guys aren't competitors, but at the same time, like they don't have enough. other guy like him who is going to fire people up, right?

Like this is, this is also the thing that is like really beautiful about the Warriors and, and what has up until this point made them one of the best stories in sports and one of the most important teams, the most important team, actual team, you know, of the past decade is that like they have this,

when it works, they have this really incredibly beautiful yin and yang, not just on the court, but personality-wise, in that locker room where you have guy like Steph who is like outside of Yokic probably the nicest most affable superstar in the league you have Clay who is just like incredibly Zen like at all times right all these guys are really super competitive though but you're right they manifest it differently and I think Draymond is is the driving force absolutely it's

kind of like you did you ever watch inside out the kids movie yeah the Pixar movie yes yes I'm a parent of course there are certain elements and there's certain personalities that are not as respected, not as liked. But I think the point of that movie at the end was that you kind of, in order to like optimize as a human being and also and as a team, you need to have every single element and you need to see the value in every single element. Right. And that's what the Warriors have kind of always done at their best.

Like they don't really sweat the small stuff when it comes to this is a thing that makes a guy who he is. Like Clay Thompson is ever going to hear something about how there's a shot that he shouldn't be taking. And there's like for Curry, there's no such thing as a bad shot. And he has this like, he has this game that, like, that can go from like laissez-faire to, to reckless. But it also makes the warriors part of who they are. And then with Draymond, you have this, this incredible fire that also can devolve into recklessness as well. But they all care deeply and they all kind of understand each other's humanity in a way, right? Yeah.

And that's allowed them to be an actual team for a really long time. Now, I don't know where this goes from here, but that's just to say they need him. And this sort of this aggression, like just the physicality is a really fundamental part of sports. It's just a matter of like finding where the line is. You really hit on it. And I think you're like description of like the dynamics of an organization. I mean, part of the point of inside out was like that like they come to realize that like,

oh, sadness doesn't need to like run the show. But sadness is an important balance or anger is okay in certain situations. And I think you're really hitting on something here that maybe I'm realizing in the moment is a really good point that like the warriors do balance those things really well. And the fact that they do play close to the fire. You're absolutely right about like Steph. does walk a tight rope between chaos and, like, discipline and, like, profound discipline and skill. And then you think about, and the comparison that I made to you earlier when we were talking was just that, like, I've had this thought about, like, great teams in the past. And maybe they

are just, like, the latest great iteration of this. We've seen teams in the past that I was running down historically, like championship teams in the past. You know, Draymond's already been on a few. Like, Bobby Portis was a guy that I pointed to who's seen. seemed like a always seemed a little teetering on the verge of out of control. Ron Artecest, I think Kevin Garnett could walk the line a lot. He's probably personality-wise the most similar to Draymond. But the comparison I made was just like in a house, you have a pilot light in a furnace. You have this little light that like you want, it needs to be in that spot and it's okay for that to burn. And it can heat the whole house. But if the pilot light is too big or it's

not inside the furnace, it could very well burn the house down. So it's like, It's important to have it. But I think you can have one guy like Draymond. I don't know if you can have more than that. That's something that I guess you could organizationally kind of ask a coach. But yeah, I think that that's a really good point about like the way the balance of the way that organization runs. Right. I love that analogy because if you think about the other end of it, a house without a furnace at all, right?

Like that's, you're going to freeze. You're going to freeze. And we're going to talk about some of these teams that could use a little bit more fire after the break. Tip off the NBA season with Van Duel, America's number one sportsbook. New customers get $150 in free bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet.

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or visit www.1-800-gambler.net, West Virginia. So, Kyle, I was just, I just got to spend a little bit of time in Ontario, L.A., or Ontario, California, which actually, one of the Nuggets players, confused for, area of Canada, which makes perfect sense. It is genuinely a confusing thing. No, it was Ishma. I was like, yeah, I thought we were going to Canada for a sec. But I got to spend some time with Denver.

And one thing that they realized about their team last season is that they just completely, like, they didn't have enough physicality. They didn't have enough toughness. They didn't have enough size. Now, the Denver season last year was not really about making a championship run. It was about trying to find a silver lining in the, Jamal injury that then turned into a season that was completely about survival. And they ended up signing the Marcus Cousins who, you know, was nice and that he fit seamlessly

into the offense, but didn't really provide a lot on defense. Perfect player. Perfect player. He was a great player for the situation they were in. No, I mean, without flaw. Oh, yeah. No, yeah. Yeah, I think he's being blackballed unfairly by the NBA, the most skilled big in the world.

It's just, it's like my toe. it's my token thing I have to do. Sorry, go ahead. Continue with your thought. Oh, are you a big DeMarcus cousins fan? Do you, is that a serious question? I got, is he being, is he being blackball? I mean, like, he's got, he's got some stuff. He's dealing with some criminal charges or I think maybe that's over.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I should back off of supporting him. So I don't know. We'll have to reevaluate that. You back me off of the Steph Curry thing. I might back you off because maybe I should reevaluate. I don't know. Great player, though.

My dog's name's boogie. Anyway, I've derailed you. please continue with your thought there. Your dog's name is boogie? Boogie, not boogie, but boogie, yeah. Boogie cousins, right, right, right. Boogie cousins. And one day I'll learn how to pronounce Louisville as well.

We'll work on it. We'll work on it. Yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there. But I was in Denver, and this is a team that then, you know, re-evaluated in this offseason, tried to kind of recalibrate. And this is what they've always been trying to do.

Find the right balance around Yokic and just the incredible offense that he can take. This is an offense that's never really going to have. issues, but they're, they're kind of similar to the Warriors and that they need a counterbalance for that. So they signed Bruce Brown, they signed Contavia's called Will Pope. They signed DeAndre Jordan. Jamal, when, you know, as he works, his way back from the ACL is definitely one of their more fiery players. And they look to me like a team that has now sort of found, or it will be maybe on their way to finding that balance. They have the ingredients. They're not quite there yet.

We haven't seen too much of them in the preseason. But they're a team that I'm going to be paying close attention to and close attention to that aspect of it. But one of the things that I found interesting was that it seems like while they want to get tougher, they are still trying to strike a balance and maintain that identity of sort of niceness that they have developed over the last few years. Denver has become a play set. I think NBA players look at it and they're like, well, this is actually pretty pleasant. There are 3,300 days of sun a year. I can golf all the time. everyone in the city is just incredibly friendly and the team is friendly and yokech is like one of the best superstars that you could play alongside and there's just a good vibe there everybody wants to live in

Denver right i mean it's like you visit you don't want to leave i i think that goes beyond NBA players it's just like it's a just a chill place and uh once you get there you don't want to go it's awesome that's it incredible food and drink out there and uh party supplies et cetera you know we'll leave it at that. But yeah, everybody wants to live in Denver. Yeah, who doesn't want to live in Denver,

right? So they have this. And one of the things that I'm going to be really curious to follow is that while they have added toughness, this is not a team with a lot of asshole energy. You know what I mean? And like you were saying,

that list that you pulled up there, like I had Bobby Fortis on it. Last year's finals were the Celtics and the Warriors. The Celtics have plenty of guys who can kind of fall into that. that category, I think, like, no, not necessarily assholes, but like just instigators, people who kind of piss off the other side, right? Like, Marcus Smart, you mentioned Bobby Portis, you know, you also, on your list, you had, you know, for 2020, you had Rondo and Marquith Morris as well.

And I'm going to be curious to watch the Nuggets and see how far they can get being a tough, trying to be a tough-minded defensive team that doesn't necessarily have that extra edge. You know what I mean? Do you think Bones Highland is kind of like he is a spicy dude? Like he's really talkative, really competitive. Like he loves to talk shit whenever I watch. He cracks me up. Like he seems like somebody,

but it almost seems like if you're going to have that type of presence on the team, it works best if it's coming from a position of influence. Like the player is kind of naturally already in a leadership position. Like I know I said Rondo, but, you know, he was, Rondo gets respect from other players in the league, but I don't know. Do you agree or disagree with that, that it probably should come from somebody?

Like, it can't just be, like, Yonis powers the bucks in his competition. Like, Janus is a huge competitor. Like, and his drive is like otherworldly. I guess it doesn't need to follow the same script every single time, right? Yeah, it doesn't necessarily, but I hear what you're saying. You almost want it to be somebody who you can't immediately discredit at, at the same time, right? Like if you're an NBA player,

like there's a level at which you could be like, who's born Thailand, you know? But at the same time, somebody like Bonn Thailand could use that to their advantage as well, because when someone that you don't know is doing that, and there's like almost this like, who does this person think they are sort of thing that can also get under your skin as well?

And I think you kind of, you kind of saw that in the early going, like the early makings of some of like the classic sort of instigators, right? Like, you know, Joaquinoa is somebody who just came to mind. He's somebody who actually, like, really pissed off his own veteran teammates in his rookie year and pissed off the entire lead because they're like, who is this dude? And why does he think he can act this way? If you don't actually listen, if you don't let that part of it get to you and you just continue to behave that way, maybe it works. Maybe it works.

I was a little skeptical of Bones like that. Bones is also, I asked, I asked something in Denver about this. And Bones was who was kind of brought up. up to me as a counter and I just don't I don't know I'm curious I'm curious to see where he was brought up as the counter to what exactly to the argument that there are no assholes on the team so they think he is kind of instigators on the team so he maybe it's a point like an issue of him proving himself like you said maybe this year he has a big breakout year and people are like okay like Patrick beverly he gets to kind of behave the way he does because he has established he keeps getting contracts

because he's somebody that has some defensive value and he's somebody that's kind of been poured it into different situations. I guess how difficult is it to import that? That's the question. Because if somebody comes in, today everybody knows everybody. It's not like as compartmentalized as it was in like the 70s, 80s, 90s, all these players know each other because they intermingle and grew up together and things like that. I guess I wonder like, is it, can you import that to a team that needs it or can it's self-destruct if you try? I mean, Patrick Beverly is a great example of that. Beverly is almost like a literal spark plug.

Like, you actually just plug him in and you see if it gets the engine going, right? I don't know anything about ours. I think that's how it's SparkClure. But I think, I think like the Clippers run and the, and the Wolves run are both really instructive. With the Clippers, he was an instrumental piece in getting a team that probably shouldn't have had any business being close to playoffs and getting them to be competitive, getting them to be prideful, getting them to care about playing defense.

Like he was a really good piece in that regard. But then when Kauai and Paul George get in there, first of all, it kind of undermines his leadership position as well. And he's asking these questions that, you know, are fair questions, but you're not necessarily supposed to ask a superstar. It's like, hey, why do you get to do all these things differently? And we don't, right? That's it.

Back to the leverage thing there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not necessarily fair, but it's how sports works. And you got to, you know, when Paul George and Cole Leonard arrived, the entire shape of the organization is going to change, right? And Patrick Beverly is somebody who is able to, who, who, it feels like kind of channeled that frustration and created, not necessarily created. It's like these things aren't necessarily intentional, which is kind of how, you know,

personalities drive together. There was a fact, it created the sense of, you know, there were factions in the Clippers locker room because they had a spokesman and a guy like Beverly. And that can be really important. I think a guy like Rondo has done that well with young players in certain instances. And then there's also the case of when he was with the Chicago Bulls and he became like sort of the shepherd of the young guys that were just kind of pissed at Butler and Wade for calling out their lack of defensive effort, which by the way, totally was real.

it's interesting. Actually, Minnesota was just here a little while ago, too, and they didn't bring Patrick Beverly back last season. Now, Beverly was very, very important to the Wolves culture last year. They couldn't stop raving about how important he was. It seemed like Anthony Edwards basically just like, he just followed mostly like what Patrick Beverly was saying. And he and Pat also was just a guy who was willing to defend the young players.

on the team and he, you know, he's standing up for a team that is essentially like, if you look at Kat, like, and, and Russell, too, on some extent, to some extent, like players who have been criticized for being soft in the past, right? I think, I think he, and I think there's truth to that. I think he was really good for them and sort of just holding them accountable on defense. And Aunt needed that. And, Ann, has struggled with that at lower levels that, like, he was a little, you know, lackadaisical about defensive effort. He would check in and check out, just consistently learning how to play hard. That's huge for somebody like him.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think, like, as a rookie, probably like just any rookie, but, you know, especially, especially somebody like him, that's a great point. But they didn't bring it back. They didn't bring it back. And I kind of, like, part of me sort of wonders if there was an intentionality to that, too. Or just that, like, that maybe we are seeing him as more or less expendable maybe than they are, you know, that we're thinking maybe they don't see it the exact.

that same way. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well, they obviously did. Like, it was like on the court, right?

Like, just like what he brings just defensively in general. Sure. I mean, I'm in the course of us from the outside talking about this, maybe we're overrating a little bit his impact on them. But like you said, yeah,

maybe maybe they or maybe they thought that like the lesson was learned and it was fine to move on. I think I think that's kind of, that's kind of where it is. I think they, they overrated his impact all by themselves. Like they, they loved overrating him,

his impact all season, right? And it's like after the lesson has learned, where does a guy like Patrick Beverly necessarily go? It's kind of like some of these coaches that where out they're welcome, right? Like a Tom Thibodeau type of coach is kind of historically, you kind of know like it's going to be great for two or three years. And then after a while, the players just start kind of tuning him out. I don't know if that was necessarily the case in Minnesota, but that's kind of like the sense I got of like, you know, how long can you necessarily keep a guy like him around? especially they have this defensive infusion coming in with Rudy Gobert, who I think will be a very interesting replacement.

He is apparently just like he was kind of described to me as somebody who has been doing a good job of holding the team accountable on defense, while also just having a manner of speaking that was still much more affable. Now, I don't know. If you're if you played for the Utah Jazz in the last few years, you might disagree with that characterization of things. but that just kind of goes back to what essentially this whole conversation is about is like this, this push and pull. The other thing with defensive anchors also, especially when there are young players on the team, when it's not necessarily a full, like a totally veteran group that will kind of always, you know, take it upon themselves to be prideful on defense is that they can't just be the guy

on the court that's, that's talking and, you know, cleaning things up. It also, the onus kind of, in some situations, I think, this is the situation with Draymond. I think it became the situation with Gobert, where the onus is also on them to become almost like an impromptu defensive coordinator for the team as well, where it's also their job to call out things in film sessions, to make sure that, you know, those are the perimeter players aren't taking too many plays off. And that's where it seemed like there was tension in the jazz locker room with Gobert, but also kind of attention that is necessary for winning.

Yeah. I think that like a player's social impact can obviously shift a lot from from environment to environment. You're talking about the jazz being, you know, tired of that. Or maybe they were just maybe there, I'm sure there were a lot of other things kind of baked into that. I always think about like Chris Paul, his dynamic with his teammates over the years. You would just hear these stories about him. You told the story about like them resenting him showing them up different obviously. But I always think about the way he was kind of has had a reputation for. being kind of domineering with his with his peers and it would kind of wear people out you would hear stories about the people just getting sick of it you know everybody has immense respect for his knowledge and things like that but like sometimes a guy can be at a certain point in their career and the thing that wore their peers out is actually going to work for for the for a younger group of players i think the pat-bev thing is interesting i think the cp3 and phoenix thing has been very interesting because suddenly he moves into this talking about a team that and i think we should be careful. We're talking, we're, we're sort of lauding this, this fire and this thing and we're

talking about, I don't, I want to be careful that it, that it's not like, hey, every team needs to draymond that's going to be willing to punch somebody in the face. It's like, it is like such a, like, perilous thing to, to navigate, having somebody that burns that hot. I'm sure Chris Paul's gotten in tons of arguments in practice and things like that. And like, but it is interesting how when you re contextualize him with the younger team, um, they were willing to listen. to him. They respected him. They were bought in and it really made a big profound impact on that organization.

Yeah, that's a good point. I think like what Draymond's punch is essentially like the shadow side of what is a sort of necessary characteristic for not necessarily every team needs to have a guy like

Draymond, but I think every championship team definitely needs to have a sense of accountability and an edge. And you know, like with the Chris Paul point, that's really interesting because one thing that I'm going to be really curious to see going forward with the Warriors is if Draymond is actually able to be that voice going forward. Like, you know, right now they're talking about how he has to basically just re-earn the trust of that team.

Within that period, let's say the Warriors get off to a lackadaisical defensive start, right? Like, I think in the past, what's worked really well for Draymond is just, it's essentially the same characteristic that it seems, that seems. seems like the reason that they give him the benefit of the doubt beyond his value on the court is just that this is a guy who has been able to make up for it. This is a guy who wants to do good, who genuinely does care about his teammates. He has done a lot and not like that punch basically. I think kind of tears a tears at that fabric a little bit there. And I'm, well, I guess maybe it does. I'm curious to see if it does tear at that fabric. And then if he's

able to be the guy who calls people out on defense. Yeah. Because, you just need you need to know that that guy cares about you right or you need something i i think that was that was a thing that's allowed draymond to uh to kind of persist and and continue to be that voice in in uh in the warriors locker room without really necessarily like wearing himself out too much i think like a guy like michael malone he's been the Denver coach for seven years and for seven years he has been the sort of loudest most abrasive voice uh which is really rare for for a coach, right? But he's managed to survive because I think his players know that he cares about them too.

So that'll be something that's really interesting to kind of see going forward with this warrior season. Yeah. And you would think you were talking about how sports are sort of, we always expect sports to be like an exact microcosm of how the real world is. And, you know, whether. It's kind of the opposite. Rightly or wrongly, it's just not.

And sports in a way simulate confrontation, you could go down 100 paths about why. we as human beings seek that out and get, you know, enjoyment from that or like, why, why do I enjoy, like, playing confrontation? But then it should be over as soon, you know what I mean? And, like, we should simulate this competitiveness. We walk away. We're fine. Most people, you know, are like that. But it's like, Draymond is somebody that, this isn't the first time that his, his personality has cost the warriors dearly. So if it happens again, I mean, Kevin Durant was probably going to leave either way. I wouldn't say that, yeah, I wouldn't say

that that's like the worst time but you know, him losing his cool in the finals. Like it's had dire kind of consequences. The suspension in 2016 is a big one. The 2018 one, especially with the fact that he got suspended afterwards, I kind of look back at it.

And I'm like, man, was that a little bit overblown there? Yeah. Like we can get into some of the teams right now that I think that really need some, Draymond. They don't need,

they don't need punches in the face and practice, but they need fire, right? I was just trying to be careful. They need some fire. Maybe they need some Patrick Beverly. Maybe,

you know, I don't know, who are the other guys in the league that you can kind of plug and play? Maybe they need some PJ Tucker energy. Sure, sure. And, man,

like last year's nets were the first team that came to my mind. Interesting. Interesting. So you think that their situation would have been, how do you think it would have been different if they'd had an enforcer type of player out there. Maybe a Zach Randolph.

There are 40 different reasons that the Nets were bad last year, right? But I think if we actually, let's not look at just last year. Let's look at the Nets in totality since like the, since Kevin Durant and Kari Irving have teamed up there. They're a team that has incredible offensive firepower and just like gets really, really, really lackadaisical on on the defensive end in ways that are just borderline unacceptable. Like the amount of times that a team takes the ball out of the basket.

and gets a layup on the nets is just like it is just soul crushing honestly i think they need somebody they needed somebody who would yell at them for that right like kevin might not like that draymond green was was yelling in his face and also like you know in fairness to katy i think i don't think that like if you were going to talk about their defensive problems he's probably not very high on that list especially at his big age but at the same time like they just didn't have anybody that seems like was concerned or alarmed about how lack of days ago they were on the defensive end for pretty much this entire Nets tenure, it's been like, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. And then they just don't really figure it out. Yeah. And it's, I mean, Duran can run a little

hot. Maybe that's why he and Dremont specifically clash so much because Nash is more of the Kerr hangback, Zen, quiet, sort of from the Phil Jackson School. Of course, Kerr, on the other hand, can be really fiery. We've seen that too. He's kind of both into the spectrum, but he chooses to be a little more calm and cautious most of the time, it seems like. Another one that you had written down here that I thought was interesting was the Hawks. What do you think it would do for the hawks to have like a fiery? Who's the most fiery guy they've had, honestly? I don't know that they've, have they had a, I mean. Probably Trey, but in sort of a different way. I was going to say, not in that way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say sort of the leader of the

defense is probably Clint Capella. But Clint Capella is like a very soft-spoken, patient, introspective, like guy who thinks about all sides of things, the type of guy. I think he's a good locker room leader in different facets. It's almost maybe providing the type of thing that, that Steph Curry provides to the Warriors, where he can kind of understand a lot of different perspectives

and try to sort of bring them together. He can understand why somebody like John Collins, he's been in the John Collins position. That's his career, just like catching loves. understand why somebody like that would want more shots, but also kind of understands why somebody like that kind of needs to, needs to defer. He's played around a lot of superstars.

He knows what it's like when there's a, when there's a, when there's a, when there's a, when there's a, when there's a, when there's a, he's not necessarily,

like, he can try to get, get, get, get the locker room fired up, but I think that they don't necessarily, like, they can use Patrick Beverly this season. Also, obviously,

last year, I mean, last year's Lakers. Right? And some of this is like, you're not going to get. you're not going to add Patrick Beverly or somebody like him, and then all of a sudden all your bad offensive personnel becomes good. But it can just get people to care.

You can get like most of the team to care 10% more. Like the Hawks last year were just a failure to launch situation. They couldn't put together a good 48 minutes. They're incredibly talented team that was definitely more suited for the offensive end of the game, but could play defense, but just didn't because they didn't really have a lot of players who really just hung their hats on. it, you know what I mean? Yeah, and they have guys that have kind of been in and out of the lineup.

And I think guys, I actually think a Kongwu could eventually become a great defensive anchor for them, like probably even better than Clint Capella on us. If I'm being honest, I mean, I've a lot of respect for Cabella, but I'm really high on a Kongan. Yeah, and I think DeAndre Hunter's staying healthy and being and growing as a player is going to make a big, a big difference for them too. And I guess, yeah, like just influencing superstars who need it, like you said, is important. And then there's also, there's also teams that have a little too much of that energy as well, right? I think like, you know, going back to the wolves, they were a team and I don't want to put this on Pat by any means. They were a very young team.

They were a very fiery team. And they had, they had a young coach as well. And they, they were just really, really tight knit. And you get, you know, Anthony Edwards just has like this, this really interesting fuck you energy as well that I really like. And there were a team that basically just, they've lost. themselves the playoffs against the grislies. I mean, I don't know. The grizzlies and the wolves were basically just in that series being like really young and really fiery and just kind of beating, they were beating themselves and beating each other at the same time.

Like that was just an incredible series when it comes to just like mental mistakes, when it comes to turnovers. There was the Carl, Carl Towns got into a ton of foul trouble, Jaron Jackson got into a ton of foul trouble, Dylan Brooks got into a ton of foul trouble. Like they were both teams that you loved to see that level of passion. You love to see that level of passion from the Grizzlies. You know, like, and they have it all the way up and down the court, right? From starting from Jod and just going all the way down, like that's just kind of what they've scouted for in a way, like, probably accidentally. But they have a certain personality type that they like.

And it all converge and created this team that is going to be incredibly promising for the next few years to come. but they also need to find a way to balance that out. And I thought it was really fascinating that while the wolves also didn't bring back Beverly, they also took like Kyle Anderson from the Grizzlies as well. And Anderson is one of the most sort of like calm, balanced players on that roster. So I'll be, I'll be, I almost wonder. I mean, the Gobert thing just adds a. But a smart defender.

Yeah. Yeah, he sort of like brings skill set and headiness without the volatility. Yeah. It's not going to tip the volatility scales too much. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've been on this rec league team for a few years now. Well, not anymore. It was this team that I was on when I was living in Edmonton.

And we were always just kind of having fun. We wanted to do well, but like we can never really get out of like the first game of the playoffs, essentially. Right. And there was this one year where towards the end of the season, for some reason, we just started getting a little spicy. For some reason, we just started getting really spicy the way you delivered that. A couple teams talked to us and we talked to them and like it just, we found this thing that we hadn't really had before as a team. Like we just started getting chippier than we normally were.

And then in the first game of the next season, there was a full blown fist fight that I'm going to say wasn't our team's fault. it was instigated by the other team. And then there were then so one guy from our team got thrown out. It's a co-ed team. It's a co-ed team. One guy from our team got thrown out and one guy from their team got thrown out. The guy from our team who got thrown out also like had a pregnant wife on the team.

Well, she wasn't playing, but she came to watch the game. I was going to say Jesus Christ. She was like basically like, man, she came back like a trooper. But when he was. when he was getting reamed out by the other guy, she got into it too. And I can kind of sense that like the guys on the other team just weren't used to being talked to that way by a woman.

And it was like a very interesting thing. And then they, they waited outside. Are you kidding me? For him to come out. And then when he did, like they just started going at him. This is in Canada?

I didn't think they did that kind of. stuff in Canada. I thought you guys were a lot more chill than that. We're fake nights. So one of the guys in the other team pushed my teammate into the guy that he had had the issue with. So it looked like both sides were like equally at fault. But luckily this was outside and there was camera footage. And the Edmonton Sport and Social Club somehow, they weren't able to get the camera footage, but they were able to get a play by play of the camera footage, which showed that he was pushed. So we only lost him for like one game.

But it set this tone for the rest of the season, or we lost him for a little while. I don't remember, but we had him back for the playoffs. But somehow it just set this tone for the rest of the season that I think is like kind of informing how I think about this because like there is just this thing. Most of the time, I'm pretty chill. Like I'm a very level person. but if you piss me off, then like something just comes out of me.

And it's not something that I can self-generate. And I don't think it's something that anybody on the team could self-generate. And as a year went on, like, you know, we started like losing sportsmanship points. And like, so we win all these games. We had sportsmanship. Yeah, so Canada, we had sportsmanship points. Look.

Wow. They're called spirit points. And we would, we would win these games and we were getting like no spirit points. So even though we were winning, like, we had to kind of wait out, even to make, make the playoffs, because, like, these points actually count, which, like, like, we can, we don't even have to get into any of that. But, yeah.

But they are just, like, sports really are just, like, this more sort of carnal place. Like, they're the place that we go to, like, release the tension of being civilized. Like, they're an outlet. Like, they're the place where I, like, I need asshole if you piss me off in a basketball game. A, I want to see this. But I remember you said this. And this would surprise people, I think, about Syrit is that I was telling one of the stories about getting disrespected. And I watched as our buddy Rob Mahoney just started laughing and rolled his eyes.

He was like, oh, my God, you're crazy. And then Siritt just totally serious expression. Syriot was just like, yeah, that's what I would have done. What else are you supposed to? You were telling the Poppy story. He called you Poppy. He called you Poppy. So Syrit is a mama mentality person.

So all right. We were talking about how, you know, self-generated. I am this person for this group that I've played with for like 12, 13 years now. I'm the engine for this. So we were playing one time. There's this guy. You're a dream on. Yeah, I'll try to get through this quick.

How would you self-defined actually? Which NBA aggressor are you? I'm just, I get very, I'm chill a lot of the time, but I'm always kind of looking for somebody. I'm looking for a reason to get motivated, like a, a, little slight. I'm looking like you said that. I'll repeat it back to you. You know, I'm just kind of a, I'm a little bit of a trash talker. So there's this guy playing. He's a Russian guy. We called him Russian Mike. Definitely played basketball like a soccer player. So we get down around the basket, getting through this quickly. He rams his shoulder into my mouth,

knocks my front tooth out, knocks it out, knocks it out, just clean. So I'm really pissed off. Walking around the court, you know, it hurt, you know, yada, yada, yada. He didn't seem to react. I go home. You had to leave, right? I had to leave. We come back like two weeks later, and he was not a regular player with our group, but he shows back up and we're playing again. And I made some point about, like, I had been really going at him that day, like to that, so we'd been guarding each other. And I wanted to guard him. So I was just trying to make his life hell. Like, he didn't score. Like, nothing was going to happen for him. We get to the end of it. And he was like, man, you really had it out for me today. And I was like, yeah, I was just after you knocked my tooth out a couple weeks ago. And he acted. And he actually, like he didn't remember that it happened. So he, he, he looked at me like, what are you talking about? So that made me even, did he, did he say anything? Was he just like, what? He was, yeah, he acted like he didn't know what I was talking about. He was like, I don't, what? I was just, and that just enraged me even more. So I'm just, I'm just beside myself. Kyle, you were, you were, you were gaslit. Yes, I was. You were gaslit. So I'm serious, like three or four years go by. I don't see this,

dude. He doesn't come back and play with us. And I'm still like, it's not resolved. So he shows up one day. Did you think about it at any point in those three or four years? Like, you know how sometimes like you're just like random thoughts come into your head? Like did you ever just randomly just get pissed off about that guy? It would come up in conversation and I would just, well, because my front tooth is fake. I mean, like that happened. I'm living with that for the rest of my life. And so he's like, he like he kind of left a party. He did. He took a part of me. So. So text thread. Russian Mike's coming to play with some of Sue. He's never going to hear this.

He shows up. I decide well ahead of time that today is going to be the worst day of his life. I like decide ahead of time. I'm like, he is going to have a terrible time. And also, I was going to try to score on him at every given opportunity and say something about it. So we play, not going to lie, I had like an incredible out-of-body,

great offensive day. And I'm going to add him on defense. Every time I score, I'm like, you have no chance guarding me. you're you know i'm just like talking all the kind of trash and then he finally just goes what's your problem man and i just in front of everyone i just went i don't like you i don't like the way you play i don't care if you never come back like and everybody was like that's how hot i can get in some these situations and my friends were all just like laughing but it's like i'm like the draymond

everybody's like well everybody puts up with it but you can have one person like me i guess is the moral of the story. If you have more than one, it can just become chaos. I don't know. Or maybe you win a bunch of games and lose spirit points like Syri. Did he ever come back? No, I haven't seen him since. That was like two years ago. So he didn't. And his friend

that brought him to the group didn't come back either. So maybe you could say I'm a monster. Anyway, I would love if he listened to the podcast. Yeah, maybe. Hopefully that's not too shocking for the people that think I'm a chill, nice guy. But yeah, there is like a symbiote living in me that can just become

venom and bite somebody's head off if you push me the wrong way. Anyway, yeah, all right. That's the story you goaded me to tell. That's good to know. Good to know. Good to know. Well, hopefully our energies continue to balance each other out at a lovely time talking to today. A couple mambas we found out, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. Like stay tuned, guys. Can we coexist? We'll see. We'll see. If we fight on air, we won't edit it out. We're going to keep it in. Yeah, we're going to keep it in. Programming note, we will now be publishing on Tuesdays. Looking forward to that, a little midweek action. So yeah, we'll see you guys next Tuesday. Thank you, Kyle. Thank you, Chris, for producing. Thanks for listening. See you.