The Ringer NBA Show - Should We Be Worried About the Warriors? | Group Chat (Ep. 212)

Episode Date: February 15, 2018

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier are joined by Haley O'Shaughnessy to discuss the state of the NBA as we approach All-Star Weekend. They examine what sort of adjustments the Celtics can make (3:30), the Warriors' recent stretch of games (9:10), and the red-hot Utah Jazz (17:20). Then they talk about the Raptors and the Rockets (28:00), who are on top of the East and West, respectively. Finally, they revisit the Cavs' trade-deadline moves (39:40) and speculate on Isaiah Thomas's NBA future (44:45). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hey guys, while I have you here with the Ringer MBA show group chat, I wanted to tell you about a couple other Ringer podcast network shows that I'm into. One is One Shining Podcast. with Mark Titus and Tate Frazier. They cover everything from good guys to bad guys in the college basketball world. And on the flip side of that, you get college basketball there. We have a new show called Draft Class, which is on the ringer NBA show Feed,

and features Jonathan Charks, Kevin O'Connor and Danny Chow talking about the upcoming NBA draft, prospects, et cetera. And if you're in the mood to just keep reading about NBA prospects, read Danny Chow writing about the 2023 All-Stars because he talks about what we're going to see five years from now in the NBA All-Star game. Who's coming? Who's going to be evolving? Who's peaking? And who might be riding off into the sunset? So Danny Chow on the future of the All-Star game,

Mark Titus and Tate Fraser's One Shining podcast, and Kevin, Danny, and Jonathan Charks on draft class. Basketball is very good. The Raptors are the best team in the East. Phil Jackson actually saved the Knicks. Mark L. Fultz will be an all-star next year. Basketball is very good. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show.

It's group chat. Justin Varyer. Hi, friends. Haley O'Shaughnessy. Great quote-unquote team victory. Guys, I have an all-staritis. Haley, did you have senioritis like 30 weeks ago when you graduated? I did not.

I was ready to leave. Oh, you were. Okay. Because Louisville basketball is no longer good. That's it. It's what your entire college experience was tied up in was the quality of your basketball team? Well, my freshman year, we won the title. So yes, absolutely. You got up before the feds came. Rough, but I'll take it.

You know, when I graduated high school, especially, I remember, like, on one hand, I was really psyched for high school to be over. But on the other, it was like the best time because the camaraderie was great. Everybody was chill. Nobody was, most people either gotten into college or decided that, you know, they were going to take a year off. And I just thought, you know, this is it. This is the best. You don't have any of the pressure. And that's what seems to be happening across the NBA,

both in a good way and a bad way. So we got some teams who seem like they can't get to the All-Star break fast enough. And then we got some teams that seem to be thriving in these last days before everybody comes to L.A. and goes to sneaker activations. So let's talk about some of the teams that are struggling. and it brings me no end of delight to start with the Boston Celtics. Perfect. In my life, in the last couple of years,

Haral Bob Volgaris has been right about a few things. He was right about Trump being elected on the day of the election. He was like, oh, the pesos being sold off. We should check out. I think Trump's going to win. And I was like, damn, that was like 4.30 p.m. I didn't know that even happened. Yeah.

And then, like, I think hours before, but perhaps even a day before, he was like congratulations to the Warriors they're going to win the next three titles and it was like Kevin Durant signing with the Warriors. Right. So now last night he tweeted out that the Celtics have been outperforming their wind

like their point differential which really alarmed Bill and I was like does this mean it's the end of the Celtics exceptionalism? And they have been struggling down the stretch here right? They look a little bit tired. All the

incredible three-point shooting that we were getting from our 19-year-old Prince who was promised. Jason Tatum seems to have dried up. Is this a blip? Is this just a we're tired? We want to get to the All-Star break? Or are the Celtics regressing? I think it's most concerning that the people closest to the team, so Bill and KOC are the ones with their hair on fire right now.

Because if you go into our slack, it's a lot of just gallows and gallows humor. And I wonder if it's like kind of just spin-off. from the Super Bowl. Maybe they're just in a bad state of mind. They just can't like wrap their head around with like one of the good things that they have. But it's kind of, I look at this team. It's kind of Occam's razor to a certain extent.

They built their team around a strong defense. The defense is still there, but not just like elite enough to really carry them throughout the entire season. And they're relying heavily on, as you mentioned, a 19 year old to provide a lot of offense and Jalen Brown not that much older. And a lot of role players. They didn't make a lot of big swings at the deadline.

And so you look at this team, you're like, how are they going to compete with the team like the new look calves in the playoffs when it's all about your front line offensive players? If Brad Stevens is so good at maximizing talent, there still is a ceiling to that talent that needs to be maximized, right? I do think that he'll be able to adjust with this break as much as he can. But like you said, they're relying on a rookie that's super inconsistent. Not he's super inconsistent, but rookies are super inconsistent.

I looked at the last four games and last five games, sorry, where they went one and four. And he shot 20% from the three and is averaging 10 points, right? But the four game went streak before that, he was shooting 42% from the three and was averaging 20 points. Yes. That's just how it goes. It was a really hot start. That's great. They're a very even team.

You know, that's how they play. So I think that that definitely helped him out a little bit. but they're also missing Marcus Smart. And something else that I hope is adjusted, and I don't know if this is a popular opinion, but it's kind of like, okay, look at your top three scores, right? Two super young guys and Kyrie. Yep.

We know this from the Cavs tenure. Kyrie can't be relied on to go off every night, just because it's exhausting, not because he can't do it. Yeah, because he's also doing so much ball handling and so much playmaking and orchestration, sure. Right. So why isn't Al Horford more involved? But what's this, what's, if you run an offense and expect, so you're saying like, can Al Forfer give you 10 more points a game?

Not 10 more. He's averaging slightly lower than last year. But give him more looks. Give him a chance more because he has the experience. Yeah. It makes sense. I think you're asking Al to do something maybe he's not comfortable with what he's never done before in his career. Obviously, the big thing to point to is they don't have Gordon Hayward.

he would step into that role fantastically. But I also wonder, like, why they didn't do anything at the deadline. I mean, they kind of hope that Craig Monroe would be a boon to their offense to the second unit would kind of give them that push. I don't know what deals they had on the table. It seemed like teams were very reluctant to give up a first round pick for Tyreek Evans, but I look at this team, I'm like, you know, he would help a little bit. And considering they're just, like, over full coffer of draft picks, like, maybe just get rid

of one of those and take advantage of the window. We talked about that a lot going into the deadline. Yeah, I mean, it does seem like they probably have an on-court awareness that they have a team that could, depending on what happens with the Cavs and what happens with the Raptors, eke into the finals. But on the other hand, the real team is going to be the team next year with Gordon back with whatever happens with the pick that they got from the Sixers that they got from the Lakers, you know, and whether it's a package of those picks for a trade for just for an Anthony Davis, for a disgruntled superstar somewhere or whatever. or it's actually yet, you know, the progression for Jalen and Jason getting to that next level, not having a hitting a rookie wall, and they'll take a run at it like that. I think that they actually have too many wings, though, once Gordon's back now. Yeah.

I do wonder if they looked at their team at the deadline and maybe this was a sign that they thought that like they were bound to bottom out a little bit. Maybe they looked at the big picture. This is what a lot of teams do at the deadline. They say, where are we, where can we get to? And they realize, like, giving up an asset to make a run with a team like this, just wasn't worth it. Right.

Ainge was like wanting a first round pick in return, which is kind of ridiculous. So I think that there's no problem with them waiting for next year. I actually think that's kind of smart. And not saying, okay, quit this year, everything's over, but there's nothing wrong with expecting to be better next year. Another team struggling down the stretch run here is the Golden State Warriors. Golden State last night

lost 123, 117 to Portland. KD had 50. They are 6 and 4 in their last 10, in their last 10 games, and they head into the break in second place to the Houston Rockets in the Western Conference. Sean, you!

I was surprised by this by this Blazers game because, you know, Anthony Slater pointed out on Twitter that it was the best game, the best defensive game he's seen from Draymon Sean's still going. It was the best defensive game

he's seen from Draymond since a Pistons game a couple months ago and KD scores 50 and they still lose to the Blazers. One of the big things that's happening with Golden State right now is that they are basically spotting teams leads, right? Like they are, that is a sign of a team that's not mentally all there every night.

And it does seem like, you know, coming off of the sort of storm in a teacup that was Steve Kerr letting those guys call plays, it does seem like on a nightly basis they need to be like woken up in a way that they didn't before, that the motivation that maybe was there a couple seasons ago where they're like, well, we're going to go for the regular season win record or like we have KD now, so we're integrating him.

Now it's just like, let's just get to, now they've been open, transparent about like, let's get to the All-Star break. We're so tired. We just want to get to the All-Star break. We're fried. Is this something that can go back and forth? for them or are we looking at maybe some some like some flaws in this dynasty?

I think it's a little both. I'm always hesitant to just like just sound the alarms on the warriors because you're always going to look stupid as a result of it. But they fuck around a little bit too much that I'm comfortable with. We've talked about this for the past couple of weeks. The clipboard. Yeah, the clipboard thing. Like I get it. But it did have kind of a vibe of we need like senioritis where we need to get these guys involved here. Let's go outside on the lawn and and and talk about literature. You're teaching class today. Yeah, exactly.

Their third worst and turnover, or they were going into last night's game, and all the other teams around them in the bottom five are basically young or young and bad. Right. And it's just, it's not a good sign for a team that kind of thrives off of, for the most part,

just being better than everyone and the belief that they're better than everyone, and it seems like they take that for granted. And the one thing I had been, like, bringing up lately, was, and the reason why I'm now, I guess, on record is saying that the Rockets are going to win the title, put that one in archives. Wow, this is Sean Yu's birthday.

Is it actually your birthday? It's just like, it seems like when they get into a little bit of a tailspin, you can throw them off their game. Draymond is excitable. He's obviously going to be prone to technicals. And then it's just like, there's just something that like this cloud

that goes over them and it's just like, they try to shoot their way out of it. Even when Katie had 50 points, like he took two heat check shots at the end of the game and basically lost the game because he just ignored everyone else in the court. Right. Right. Well, one of those did go in.

The third one did. The third one did and his foot was out of bounds. So yes. But at the same time, he just basically looked off everyone else and just went for it because he was hot. Well, so this is exclusive to last night's game and not the whole six and four. Six and four in their last ten games. But Steph Curry was off. Sure.

Right? Yeah. Clay only contributed 17 points, which most likely has to do with, okay, Katie's hot. Let's give him the ball. Also, Portland's defense is good. I don't know if people recognize that because of... And Dame went not. Dame had like 44 last.

And also CJ McCollum went off and he had 29. Yeah. That's not going to happen three times in the series. No, but every time this happens, whether it's the Blazers, whether it's the thunder beating them twice, I think that the air of the air of indestructibility goes away a little bit. There's a couple of things.

I think they're going to win the title. So let me just say that straight up. I could also see them winning the title going like, like not 16 and O in the playoffs, but I think they could just completely be like an absolute in flames by the time the playoffs start. Sure.

But I think Iguodala looks a little old. Like Iguodala looks washed. I think that the Nick Young thing is fine, but I'm not sure what, like, is he a Warriors player? There seems to be like a theme of this season is we're challenging ourselves. We're challenging ourselves to bring somebody like Nick Young in and have him be a contributor on a NBA finals team. We like, we need the players have to coach on any given night. Guys are like a little bit mentally beaten down by the world. Dremond has been like really up and down this season and he's sort of the heartbeat of the team and the brain of the team. And I think that

there is something too, especially for Western Conference teams and Western Conference coaches like Donovan or Stotz, is that for as much as, you know, look, if they're hot, you can't beat them because there's just too many shooters for too few defenders. But they've seen this team 20 times now in person, you know, this team. And they've got not only tape, but experience with like, Steph's going to make some bad passes. And you can capitalize on those, like the turnovers you're saying, like one of the worst turnovers teams in the league. And you can kind of take advantage of them. And if they don't get those key contributions from bench spots like Aguadala,

you know, Livingston's been playing well, but, you know, McCaw's been out. I think that this is a beatable team. I just don't think they're going to get beat this year. They're the most beatable that they've been. But I still don't know if in the playoffs they are beatable. Yeah. And that's the best point you can make about them. A lot of the issues we're bringing up seem to be regular season concerns.

It's like, oh, their bench isn't deep enough. and like, oh, David West kind of bails them out a little more often than he should. But I look at Jordan Bell not being there, and he's been just a huge key to the success. Right. Like Nick Young, maybe he doesn't play as many minutes in the playoffs. Right. But there is the concern that we keep bringing up that the death lineup also is looking a little rigoury to see.

And so I would say overall the regular season issues, but, you know, it's something to keep in mind just going forward. Yeah. I mean, I think that let's see them the first. first week after the all-star break. I don't, I don't, I think the concern is that Kerr also seems a little fried, you know, and, and they obviously have shown their ability to be very successful, regardless of whether he is literally on the bench or not. But when you've got a coach, and I really admire him because he comes out and he's just like,

we didn't have our, we got our asses kicked tonight or we weren't there tonight or whatever. And I think we are basically expecting professional. from this basketball team. But it is, I think you can see a little bit of wear and tear on him, too. And there's always the back thing. But even just emotionally, like every night kind of trying to convince these guys to go out and do things in a certain way. And it's obviously wearing him down a little bit.

We don't want to just talk about the teams that are struggling. Wait, hold on. I just want to bring up one thing. Sure. I wrote this last night in ICYMI am I. And I'm kind of terrified. I was kind of terrified that people would be like, what are you talking about?

but it seems so weird to me that Kevin Durant watching him last night has only had five 50-point games in his career. I'm dead serious. Ever? Well, think about who he played with. Okay. But he's only had one with the Warriors.

That was his first with the Warriors. Oh, my God. And that's like, that's a compliment to him because you watch him last night and he's so, he's such a complete score. It's amazing. Like, he's so amazing to watch. It's so casual with him.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I wonder how many 50-point games Steph has had since KD arrived? I don't know. Maybe I'll check. I don't feel like a lot. Maybe I'll ESPN stats and info it.

Yeah, I don't feel like a lot. Let's talk about the jazz. The hottest team in the league. Well, I guess the Rockets are the hottest team in the league, but we'll get to why the Rockets and the Raptors keep getting disrespected a little bit later. We have to talk about Utah. Rodney Hood-Ewing theory is in full effect.

They may have the best non-pop curve. I guess Brad coach in the league. Okay. So we're just ignoring Spolster now? Yes. Like he doesn't have a superstar in his team. Right. I'm not saying, I'm not like ignoring Spolster, but they're also like, they are, the heat have way more talent than the jazz, don't you think? It's kind of close.

I guess it is kind of close. I guess I said that without actually thinking. I mean, Goron's technically an all-star, even though it took like three injuries to get to me. Yeah, you'd probably take, you obviously take Gobert over White Side. Gobeer over White Side. Yes. I mean, Mitchell long term over Goran. I like a lot of their wings that they have. Rousseau Neal, it's looking nice.

Royce O'Neill, wow. Yeah. I'm impressed. I would love, you know, it's a shame if they did straight seating, I would love a Utah Miami playoff series. Would you? Well, just as a clash of sensibilities between the two cities would be fun anyway. That would be fun.

I'd love to see some Miami Vice uniforms against Utah. I love the Utah's sunburst uniforms or whatever those things are. It's weird that Utah has the best son's uniform in the NBA. Yeah, I know. And I just think those are two really well-coached teams. So, yes, let's put Spolstra in this mix. Except I also will say Miami's been blowing so many late games lately. Yeah, you've been very closely following the Miami Cardiac Kids thing.

I have because it was two nights in a row. Yeah. Last night and the night before. It's worth pointing out that Haley has often mentioned that close, exciting games. have a direct, like especially when she's doing I see why am I. If there's too many exciting games late at night, she can't sleep later. So you probably have like a love-hate thing with Miami because they're at once make your job interesting and then they ruin your circadian rhythms.

I'm hyped up like I'm about to go to the gym. Yeah. That's true. Back to the jazz. See, we're already not talking about the jazz. Since January 16th, they have the magic numbers, which are top five offense, top five defense. that's the title-winning

pedigree that you want. They were not going to win the title. 538 does think that they have a very good chance of making the playoffs, though. Zach Lowe just wrote a really good assessment of how they've sort of managed this 11-game streak, and they have the easiest remaining schedule

of that group of teams that are all sort of competing for those final Western Conference playoff spots. They've beaten the Spurs twice, the raps, and dubs and blazers over the course of this streak. Who could have predicted this? I don't know.

I mean, the thing about group chat that's tough is that we don't have people who stand by their takes. And we don't have people who are like, if they've said something a couple weeks ago, they'll bring it back up. No dying on this hill. Just like laying down

and taking a nice nap on it. I have loved Terry Rozier from the start. I want to say that. That's true. That's true. And Donovan Mitchell. I'm clearing out for you. Go ahead. So as you might have seen,

scene on the Twitters.com. I wrote something kind of, you know, just off the seat of my pants or whatever the saying is around the new year, just saying that the team that we were sleeping on is the Utah Jazz. We talked about them going into December, just what a tough stretch

that they had. And they kind of came out with that looking decent. They beat like a Cavs team, which in retrospect doesn't look too great considering what happened with the Cavs. But there were other teams that they beat in that stretch where it was just like, okay, I can kind of see it. And their defense was always good.

Donovan Mitchell had shown enough. You're a little worried that a lot of it was going to be based around a rookie, but, I mean, he's kind of acquitted himself here. He's pretty much been the engine for this entire team. And around him, there are just enough guys that kind of make it all work. There's, I think that people were rightfully concerned after losing Hayward and then losing Hood, who is, I think, having a career scoring year, at least in Utah. Well, they were putting him off the bench.

Yeah. But he was, he was filling it up on. given night. I think he had like that 20, there was like a 35 point night, like right before he got traded, something like that. But what's wild about Donovan is even at his height, I felt like Gordon Hayward played within a system. Donovan is like Iversonian. You know, I mean, Donovan is such, even though I don't even know his usage numbers are, he feels like you can, there's, there's, there's something about him taking 27 shots a night, which is like that in and of itself is a useful thing for the team because he's like, I can do it. I can come down the court.

And when the offense breaks down, Quinn Snyder has this really nice, I think it's called advantage basketball or whatever the terminology is for it, this really cool ball movement cutting. But if you need Donovan Mitchell to do a jab step and a nine foot fade away, he can do that, you know? And that's like a big deal, especially his defenses get tighter. He's basically Alvin Kamara for basketball. Yes. He kind of just like comes out of nowhere. And even if you have a system in place, he kind of breaks through.

Yeah. He is kind of shape like a bowling ball. And I mean that in like the nicest possible way. He just has a low center of gravity, and is able to kind of keep a tight dribble, but also like kind of power his way to the rim. The thing that I've been most encouraged by is just the development of some of their wing guys.

We talked about Royce O'Neill. Everyone in this league is looking for a three-n-d-wing. And they kind of just manufactured a guy who came overseas similar to Brandon Paul earlier in the season with the Spurs. He kind of just had enough of those traits. and has really popped in place of Ricky Rubio. And before Ricky Rubio went out for these past three games, he was even looking good.

Yeah. He was kind of carrying the offensive times. The one thing I've been most encouraged about in this streak is that they've made the Favors go bare pair and work. They're starting that pair. They're playing them. Favors plays a little back up center too now, right? Yeah, they're staggering them.

I looked it up before this. They're pretty much playing half of their minutes together. And I don't know if that's a long-term solution. I don't know even if next year you want to bring favors back even just to maintain the asset. But the fact that they're making that work in today's MBA, I think it's a good sign that they can kind of mix and match and have enough just collectively in order to make this work. Are they fun to watch? Yeah, they are fun to watch.

And I thank you. I've been saying that for a while. Not only because they're slowing teams down on defense. And also it's very fun to watch Donovan Mitchell be so casual on defense, but so effective. If that makes sense. Yeah. He is somebody that just absolutely pops when you watch him on defense. It was like that.

I saw him play against Portland in Summer League. And he was guarding four positions. And even though it, and like you said, it is literally like a fire hydrant, like an animated fire hydrant running around after people. It just seems terrifying to have to go up against him. Right. And it's interesting to say that his athleticism is almost as entertaining on defense as it is offense. Because, oh, my.

my God, the way he gets to the rim is incredible. And to be honest, like, yeah, I watched him in college very closely, but I had no idea. Yeah. I had no idea that it was going to be this much in the NBA. And to your point about just Snyder kind of coaching toward his personnel. Yeah. And like what makes a good coach, essentially, is that they've managed you. And this is something Zach Lowe first mentioned, but they've slowly up the pace.

Traditionally, one of the slowest teams in the league. There's, I think, 25th in the league right now. and during the stretch, they're 12th. So it's looking at your personnel saying, well, maybe we need to play more toward Donovan Mitchell's strength, some of these backcourt guys who are playing well. They've given in the keys. I mean, that's been, you know,

Hayward walked, that was unfortunate. They didn't know what they had in Donovan Mitchell before Hayward walked. But when you let Rodney, when you trade Rodney Hood for Jay Crowder, you're specifically saying, like, we think we can get 15 points a game out of Jay Crowder and that he can be a lockdown perimeter defender. And now that they have, they have one of the thing, another thing that you want in the play,

playoffs is multiple elite perimeter defenders. And Jay Crowder, I don't know if he's still an elite defender, but on any given possession, I think, can be really effective. They have all the makings of a really good playoff team. So here's what I want to know. Could they give the Rockets or the Warriors any trouble? I think they could win a home game. I think they might.

They could take a game, but they feel like Portland of years past. Rockets and Warriors are tough, but for instance, 538 projects them to have the fifth best point differential in the league by the end of the season. So they're actually closer to a Thunder sort of team. I wonder if they just keep rattling off wins. We talk about them in like this 3-6 series, 4-5 series more. And then all of a sudden we're talking about first round upset. Thunder or wolves, yeah. Yeah.

I think they can upset one of those teams. They would upset the wolves more likely. Yeah. You think they match up well with them? Well, the wolves can be very careless. Yes. They dissolve into isolation a lot. Yeah, I think that their defense would give them a lot of trouble.

And also, Wolves' front court defense is atrocious. It is awful. So they would have a good time. Okay. We're going to talk a little bit about the Rockets and the Raptors and some other stuff when we come back. But first, a quick word from our sponsors. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by State Farm

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Hey, guys, let's talk about the two top teams in each conference, which we just, I feel like we don't talk about the Toronto Raptors enough. But while Boston has sort of shaken a lot. little bit here and the calves are surging. The Raptors have quietly won seven in a row. They're nine and one in their last 10. They have better, they're five points better than the next, like almost, almost five points, better than the next closest in point differential in the Eastern Conference.

They are far and away, the best team in the Eastern Conference right now. They have completely figured out who they are. They rely on two players but get contributions from all over the floor. is this a finals team? You know what I'm going to say? Just let's see it in the playoffs. I know this is become a running gag at this point. But this team is way better than the team from last year.

This isn't like their really good regular season team, tomorrow, Kyle, all that, la, la, it's like this is a real NBA team right here. I think the biggest, their biggest disadvantage right now is that the Cavs figured their shit out. Like that they have a bunch of young bodies and all of a sudden LeBron, it's LeBron James and LeBron James team versus the world. And unless you have the horses to go at him, I don't know. I'm still dubious. I don't think.

Top five defense. Yeah, top five defense. Exactly. And against, like we said, a young team, well, a young bench now, which can, you know, like we said earlier with Jason Tatum, be inconsistent. But I do think that people are discounting the Raptors mostly because of their past. You know, they've done well during the regular season and then fall apart during the playoffs. But this new system is built because they've been.

falling apart in the playoffs. You can't solely rely on a backcourt, and if they have an off-night or two off-nights expect to win. And now with the ball movement, with Kyle Lowry handling, less responsibility up top and going out to the wing, you know, spotting up more, it's really an offense that relies more evenly

on all of its players. And that's what you need in the playoffs if one of your players is having an off-night. I also don't feel like before they've had one of the things that's really interesting about like really, really, really good competitive teams is the way that their second units take on personas and that their second units, they go 10 deep and maybe it gets shortened to 8 in the playoffs. But this emergence of the Toronto second unit as somebody who can actually feast on opposing teams second units, yeah, that might be great

for the regular season and they're going out and destroying teams that aren't built, aren't quite there yet personnel-wise. But I do feel like this Delon-Rite-led second unit is just really, really good. And they've got guys all over the floor. I mean, they're practically at a point now where Norman Powell's getting marginalized. Yeah. I don't mean to take anything away from their very good team. Which is something you say before you kind of son someone. No, I know. This is an interesting part of this conversation is like, I think that what we're going through right now is a state in the season, a stage of the season where we don't know whether to trust our eyes and we don't know whether to trust the numbers because we just

have learned these things over the year it's a lebron it's the warriors like these things and we're like is that are we going through a sea change change moment are we seeing like that if you keep a core together and smartly add to it like this that you could be competitive this way yeah and we talk about young guys with jason tatum and everyone else but i mean they're still relying a lot on ogy and an obi who like i guess you're not relying so much on offense and and for him to contribute that and but it's more of like a defensive 3-and-D sort of guy. But like, you know, there's something there. Sergei Baca, you're kind of clinging to your prime there.

I don't know. Speaking of the second unit, I just look this up. CJ Miles in 18 minutes is averaging 10 points. Love it. Yeah. Great job, Siege. I mean, also speaking of what we were saying before, Toronto versus Miami first round series would be awesome, awesome first round series.

Let's talk a little bit about the guys at the top of the Western Conference. Sean Yu's own Houston Rockets. Do you think that they are taking advantage of a down year for the Spurs and a Warriors team that is now going through the sort of the added weight of playing almost 100 games every season for three years? Or is this Chris Paul thing elevated their rockets to the absolute upper echelon of the NBA? Why do those have to be different? They don't.

Because if you think about it. I'm just hosting. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just a simple man. Talking about the rockets. Talking about the rockets. I think that those are not exclusive because every year, you know, a team is having, you know, teams have off years like the Spurs where they're just not who they were the last couple years. Every year, maybe a team who was doing well before perhaps not as solid as the Warriors. We haven't seen a team like them in quite some time. falters a little bit. So it's not necessarily taking advantage as it is, okay, look, like we have the tools to be better right now and to get the number one seed and perhaps to stay there.

So I think that those aren't necessarily exclusive. I do think that the Chris Paul experiment is working out quite well, though. Yeah, I just look at the team. It just makes sense. Everything falls into place really well into Mike Dantonie's offense and the defense has been there all year. And that's That's the one thing that's, to me, signaled that they're legit. And they match up, it seems like, well with the Warriors. I believe they beat them every time they play them this year and kind of handedly. And I just look at their... I think it's two and one.

It's two and one. Okay. Thank you, Haley. It's just, I look at that team that can go big, they can go small. And the Chris Paul, James Hardin thing just like, it seems to have mesh just right off the bat. Now, the one thing I brought up in that same article that I forecasted this jazz reign of dominance was just that. I would want to see Chris Paul and James Hardin in a playoff series together just because if we're going to knock the raptors for that, we should do the same with the rocket. It's simply because Chris Paul in the playoffs is just a different version of himself.

Yeah. It's just like him to the maximum, which is not always for the best because he will put a stranglehold on things. And it's almost like he micromanages too much. It's a slightly different offense this year. Jared Dubin has like a really good piece on the rear this week. Just talking about there's a lot more. guys running to spots. And so Eric Gordon was talking,

talked to Jared about how he is basically being harassed out of, out of his three point shot now. Like his numbers are actually down a little bit in terms of threes because he's being, there's paying so much attention to him. But you've got guys like Ryan Anderson and you've got guys like Mbamute who are, are getting more looks,

probably a little bit more open. But it's a slightly less, would you say it's a less lively offense? Would you say it's a more, more dependent because when Hardin and Paul are on the floor at the same time Jared's article talks about one of them is going to the wing when the other has the ball. So you're basically like shoving down one good three point shooter to the to the corner and the corner threes are up for such guys like Ryan Anderson. Do you feel like it's like an offense that is solvable by a Popovich

if he has a couple of minutes to think about it and that he has a defense that he can throw at it? Because they did beat them last year and they won the deciding game of that series. Why? Right. I think last year it seemed like the system was what papered over kind of some of their flaws. It's like they specifically went to that look with James Harden as the point guard and surrounding by shooters in order to kind of bridge a gap, so to speak. Whereas now they've filled it out.

It's almost like having like just like a three piece band and then just like filling it with an orchestra to a certain extent. It's just like you feel everything is more lively and it all works still. They haven't abandoned what they've done. And if anything, like one of the big things in the playoffs was, wow, James Hardin run out of gas. A lot of it's based on him. Yeah. If you just drive them into those mid-range shots, they'll kind of fall apart. But now you have James Hardin who can create for himself.

You have Chris Paul who could do the same thing. You know something I looked up yesterday out of curiosity because I think the common assumption with the team who has a lot of three-point shooters and can spread the floor is that they have great ball movement. Right? But watching them for a couple weeks, they are doing the same thing with James Hardin except twice with Chris Paul. So you have two guys who drive very often or pull up by themselves very often. And so I looked up how often relatives to the other teams in the league they're passing. And they actually pass the second fewest times per game in the league.

Interesting. Yeah, it is interesting because I think that like I said earlier, everyone would assume that They have a lot of ball movement because they have the opportunity for it. You assume the ball is zooming around the court. Right, right. And also. And maybe they don't need to pass. And maybe they don't need to.

And honestly, they really don't. Like, we, they see a lot of success with this. And their other move is like, okay, like, Clint Capella has been great. We have nay-nay. Like, we'll just throw it inside. It'll be a quick assist. So. Did you see anything?

You know, they, they beat the Timberwolves pretty handily, 126-108 the other night. But did you see the Timberwolves try anything to stymie them? because I think you would think that if somebody, aside from Popovich, could come up with a way to frustrate the rockets, it would be Tibbs. You would think that. I'm really not sure what the issue is, like I said earlier, with their front court defense. The Timberwolves, yeah. Right. Before, it was pretty clearly Carl Anthony Towns effort.

He had a good defensive run there. Now it seems like it's kind of gone again. I'm not really sure how you fix... Talk about all-staritis. Right, right. I'm not really sure how you fix effort, you know, when your strength is maybe a scheme. I don't know if he's really like a player's coach. So no, I don't think that the wolves have any chance against the rockets.

Maybe Capella could get pushed around a little bit. That's the one concern I have just because he's young and he's light. He's very much like a Tyson-Channler, Rim Runner. But the way that they're able to utilize their spacing and gravity, from the three-point line to get him open looks and get him creative looks and lobs down low. It's amazing. The only thing that stops them from going to the Western Conference finals

is the health of Hardener Paul. I mean, that's really it. I just don't think that anybody can hang with them offensively. Okay, we're going to take another quick break to hear from our sponsors and we'll be back to talk about some of the trades from the trade deadline a week later. Today's episode of the Ringer MBA show is also brought to you by Squarespace.

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We're back. Let's just do a quick review of the trade deadline and where we are a week later, because I think that we've arrived at this point where Kobe Altman is the new Jerry West. after two games. Right. And Isaiah Thomas is now a reality show, no matter, apparently it was not, the problem wasn't

Cleveland. The problem is, I guess, well, you know what? The theme that's consistent with Isaiah is that his Boston, Boston is coming back to haunt him no matter where he is. Yeah, shots to Rondo for keeping that beef just like silently and simmering in the background just until he, like, played him. What a strange, strange little weird? And also like the, just the Pelican scoring 139 also, like in the process.

That was a strange game. Let's just talk quickly about the Cavs. Very easy to get carried away. I don't even think that they have a playbook right now. But that is a testament to LeBron with athletic shooters is terrifying. And it's also. And it's also. Engaged LeBron.

Yeah, I was going to say a please LeBron, a rejuvenated LeBron is terrifying. With a hot J.R. Smith and Ronnie Hood and George Hill hitting shots. Okay. Yeah. Everything is gravy right now. It seems like a party on the sidelines. It reminds me of those teams when LeBron really came to prominence and he was like just started winning MVP's and was in that discussion where that bench just got along. Yeah.

Yeah. They were doing that thing where they pretended to take photos of each, like group photos of each other. Yeah. It reminded me of that like post first year in Miami with the same thing sort of to happen. they had that streak. Yes. Whenever he has that big smile going, it seems like it's infectious. And so it's been great to see.

The one thing that's been float around our slack and just about the calves is I look around and I see the things that are working now and I'm like, hmm, like in that game against Oklahoma City, they're going to Jordan Clarkson at times in the same way that they would Kyrie Irving. And I thought to myself, maybe. Maybe. That's going to work. Here's the thing. What if the Lakers are bad, though?

No, they are. Yeah. I think that people are obviously very skeptical about Jordan Clarkson having a sustained amount of success and being able to be a contributor in postseason. But isn't this an example of a guy being asked to do the thing that he is good at and not being asked to do the things that he's bad at and also not getting jerked around about what his role is not only on the team but in the franchise because there was like a four-month run there where people thought Jordan Clarkson was the reincarnation of Kobe? Well, I'm not so sure that the calves are asking him to do what he's good at because he's shot a lot of threes and he's been a lot better. He's not a good three-point shooter. Has he ever been this open?

Because when I was watching that Oklahoma City game, I was like, this guy has time to read a book out there. The optimism is that they got these guys who do certain things well and they're just going to enhance that because LeBron brings out the best in those qualities. Larry Nance, classic example where he's like the perfect small ball five with LeBron. You saw them running a little bit of pick and roll. And there was one point where LeBron hit him like with a pass when no one else can hit him. And Nance missed an open shooter in the corner off of that.

But you could tell he thought about it. And when you get those like secondary assists and that stuff sort of going and they play more with them with each other, it's going to look really good. I just wonder, again, not to be super reductive, which I have been most of this podcast. but in the playoffs, when it becomes more about just like elite top-level guys, I don't know if it will affect them that much in the Eastern Conference just because there aren't that many guys to kind of push them in this respect. But like against the Warriors, against the Rockets, you're just, you're relying a lot of these kind of league average guys.

Absolutely, absolutely. Like I totally agree with you. I also think that Larry Nance is an injury waiting to happen. I think George Hill is an injury waiting to happen. I think Jara Smith is a cold strapped. streak waiting to happen. I don't know how they bring Love back in and what role he plays. They were really good for a while there when Love was the pure second option. They have like four second options now. So they basically have to institute a LeBron and everyone else kind of offense rather than a

tiered LeBron number one option. Kyrie was the number two option. Sometimes that would flip. Kevin Love was decidedly number three even though he was on the floor of the guy like J.R. who sees himself as a number one. Right now it's like the open shooter shoots and it worked out for two games. But I definitely just want to say way more into watching this Cavs team than the last team. Like watching LeBron with guys who can sprint is awesome. It is incredible. And he's so happy and to bring it back to Jordan Clarkson, he is so in love with all of his assists. Every assist. He's like, this is amazing. You're my prodigy.

Half DeAngelo Russell, Vain tap, half ACDC guitar. This thing, the little like hand circle. It's quite good. Do you want to say anything about Isaiah? I mean, is Isaiah going to get a contract next year? What a fucking baby. That's all I want to say. It's a bummer.

I mean, it is a bummer because you see his playoffs last year and you have to, and your heart breaks for him. It just sucks. It's like if he had just been like I tore my ACL, you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. It's like if you, this is how I feel about faults too. It's like if you were just torn your ACL and every, everybody would have stopped paying attention.

And Isaiah could have just rehabed and come back. And maybe he wouldn't have gotten a max, but he probably would have been fine. And somebody would have talked themselves into the idea that, hey, we need somebody to score. And now he's just a grudge factor. Yeah. And eventually it's like...

And he's going to wind up on Orlando or he's going to wind up on Atlanta. He's going to wind up in New Orleans somehow. And it's just going to be like this. To be fair, Rondo is a total bully. And apparently just went at him to the point where Isaiah was like, yeah, when I checked into the game, he was all over me. So Rono was asking him. This was about the...

Boston thing, right? Yeah, but that's the flip side. He kind of started this by being petty. Rondo is totally a bully, but like I watched the video too. Like Isaiah was trash talking like the second he checked into the game. Sure. Yeah. Well, I said this to you guys over the break, but every single I see why am I, I have done this

week, there has been a blurb about Isaiah being dramatic. Yeah. And it's just like, look, you had a really bad time in Cleveland. Now you're on a team that is in a. big market, sure, but also doesn't really get a lot of attention in terms of like expectations for being good. You know, you're with some young guys. Just like stay low for a little bit and, you know, make sure everything's good with your hip. Try to get a little speed back and then do all of this big talking. And obviously like with the Paul Pierce thing, yeah, I would have been talking

back to him too. Like they were all so ridiculous about that. But everything else is just like, don't take shots at Danyange anymore. Don't take shots of the cabs anymore. Don't take shots of LeBron or their practice schedule or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, you're not playing well. It just doesn't work out. You look grumpy. And Lonzo was not even back yet. I can't wait to Lovar and IT square off on crossfire. Any other notes on trades that happened that you wanted to shout out? I think Alfred Payton has been interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's the guy that we kind of... They still suck, but he definitely all of a sudden can shoot now. Yeah. We were, we were talking about it just the other day. I forgot who they were playing, but he had a really good

scoring game. The rest of the team did not score well as a result. So I do wonder if he's like only going to be a fantasy all-star going forward rather than an actual player. But he's a guy that, I don't know, these young guys in new places, Emmanuel Moodye is another one that we've been talking about just because they're playing him more than Frank Nillikina. Than Frank Nillikina, which I was, I tried to defend the Knicks in some of these teams like kind of doing it because it's not just binary or black and white in terms of development, but At the same time, Kornchak basically admitted last night that, like, Jared Jack had it going, so he kept him in the game.

Yeah, that's just, that's nuts. It's ridiculous. If you're doing that, it's like, no prosengis, it's like, why? What's the point? It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. And it's also just like, I guess you want to get a sense of what Moudier can do with 20 minutes a game, but this is the time to let Neil Aquina play into being a real NBA player.

Get a sense of what they can both do. Absolutely. You know, there's no problem with that. Moody is still super young. All right, we're going to wrap it up there. That's it for group chat. We'll be back now. Thursday to get you started with the last, what, 30 games of the season, 25, 30 games of the season as we come towards the playoff run.

Enjoy your All-Star weekend. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.