The Ringer NBA Show - Six Big Questions a Quarter(-ish) of the Way Into the NBA Season | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos answer six questions after a quarter of the NBA season. They talk about the Bucks and Sixers (4:53), the Nuggets (20:00), Trae Young and the Hawks (31:40), the Lakers (41:30), and Anthony Edwards vs. Ja Morant (57:05). They wrap up with a brief 2021 redraft (1:07:50). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer, and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have new shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from John Crackauer to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us.

on the press box. The group chat, I am Justin Verrier, and joining me, two other guys not followed by Timothy Shalameh on Twitter, Rob Mahoney, Figuay, Big Waz, welcome my fellow non-ball knowers. What do we have to do to get on the list? Like, what is the threshold here?

I don't know, but I definitely qualified in the words of Isaiah Thomas. I don't know what the criteria was, but I was definitely qualified, and somehow Shalemay has not found, at Big Waz yet, but he will eventually. I have said a lot of disparaging things about Wonka, if I'm being honest with you guys.

So it's maybe explainable why I'm not being followed by Timothy Shalame. But look, I've been out in these ladybird streets for a long time. I've been preaching the good word of Shalamee. And he's just a selective, he's a selective Twitter user, apparently. You're the big bird of Lady Bird. That's what they said. I like to live in a world where Salamee was such a group chat fan that he was poised to follow all of us, but then heard your takes on Wonka and was just so burned to a

core that he just could not. He could not bring himself to follow us on Twitter a platform he seemingly does not even really use. I'm sorry for ruining it for all of us guys, but maybe maybe there's hope. Life is long. People forget things over time. I think we can get back in Timmy's good graces. Bridges are built. Wounds are mended. I have something to say though. Like I think his whole schick on game day while delightful kind of fraudulent, you know? He clearly didn't know the things he was talking about but I see so many people being hoodwinked

and I'm like, my friends, open your eyes. He does not know about the SMU mustings actually. He's just reading off a paper and he memorizes it because he's an actor. I mean, it was a good bit. It was a good bit. It was a very good bit. So we got to give him that. All right. Shall we

get into the matter at hand here? We have a weird schedule. this week. Like, because of the NBA cup action over the weekend, uh, we're getting just like dribbles of games throughout this week. It's just like one game tonight. It's Knicks and Raptors. There's two the next night. So I think it's a good time to reset going into this kind of like little detente we have, uh, in the NBA season, this little Paxromana, perhaps that we have in order to chew on some stuff that we've gotten to the first quarter of what is wrong with you today? I don't know. I'm really, I'm really going on.

I'm wearing a Portland. Do you become a history buff all of a sudden? Like, I don't know what's just going on with your life. I'm wearing a more vibrantly colored flannel than, as per usual. And I just feel like I'm more vibrant as a result. But I have to say yesterday, the big old slate of games that pre-leuded this kind of weird, like, life schedule. I love that. I love that when there's just a whole chunk of games, when something good is happening,

you're like, oh, what's going on over there? It reminds me more of college football. I need more of that in the NBA season kind of as a coda to the conversation we had last week I just want more of stuff that feels organic to the product Yeah, I wonder if we can get some of that in like a black Friday type balance You know, we're going to have our selective like these are the marquee games on the big NBA Cup days on the big holidays And then I want like the everything else must go like if you're not playing in those games you get lumped on the same

frenetic day where we can just bounce around between the games all day. That that sounds wonderful to me So we need like an NBA red zone is what you're saying? I mean, I think we got that already, no. But nobody tunes in, unfortunately, to our guy, Jared Greenberg. Yeah, instead of focusing on like the holidays, can we just take over the random days? Like it's actually, it's Tuesday, November 14th. Yeah. We're going to take this is the NBA's day now.

I'm glad we spent a whole episode trying to solve the NBA's problems, but we delayed it one up because we just did. pick a random day, make it important. And own it. Lumping a bunch of NBA games on it. Why not at this point? All right. So I have down here six big old questions as we're around the quarter mark of the NBA season. Quartermark was probably last week or even before that.

But we're thereabouts of a quarter way into this season. Starting with number one, big day for returns. Joel Embed, all of a sudden back. I wasn't aware that he was even on the verge of coming back. He's back. They beat the Bulls. The Sixers do. Chris Middleton also comes back over.

the weekend, plays against off the bench, against the Nets. Here's my question to you, Rob. Who will win more games going forward from this point? So not including the records before this. Who will win more of the Sixers or the Bucks? So I want to give the Sixers credit for playing like something more closely resembling an actual basketball team lately. I do think they're clearly going to be better. As much as their guys are healthy, they're going to be far and away a different team than the one they've seen. But I will still take the Bucks, winners of eight of their last 10, finally getting something going between Dame and Janice. And now Chris Middleton's back in the fold.

Can he shoot yet? No. Is he looking and moving better than I thought he would, given the extent of his injuries and the long run time to get him ready? Honestly, I think he looks like pretty good, pretty mobile for what you would expect Chris Middleton to be. The bucks are a little bit more of an offense first team than I would like, but I have been heartened by their trajectory. I just see like more building blocks here with Trent and Portis starting to play better.

AJ, AJ Green and Andre Jackson, like really giving them something over the course of their integration into the lineup. And I don't know what the balance of all this is necessarily, but I like the way, I like where the bucks are headed was. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's got to be the bucks because if you look at Joelle and Bede and Paul George's medical history, you know, it's freaking longer than a CBS receipt at this point, right? And so I don't know how you can count on those guys to be available as the season progresses. And even if it's just knick-knacks, which, you know, inevitably happened throughout the course of the season, just for that reason alone, I think the bucks are going to be a more consistent and better group. But, yeah, like, when they have all of their guys, they can be, like, what we thought, a Eastern Conference championship-threatening kind of team. This just hasn't happened so far this season. You know, Joelle dropped 31 last night.

He looked relatively good. You know, somebody coming off of, you know, the knee problems that he's been having. But, yeah, I definitely go with the bucks. Well, Justin, you mentioned you didn't even know that Embed was kind of on the precipice of coming back. From what you hear, some Sixers might not know when Joel is or is not going to be ready to play. Like, I think there's a lot of confusion as to what his state is day to day. And the fact that that is overall where Joel is coming from, in addition to the version of the player that we've seen on the floor,

by and large the season, which is not full speed, Joel, with all due respect to the Bulls, you know, he can still drop 31 on those guys. It's just so hard to, it's hard to bet on that team when you don't know how available he's going to be and even how good he's going to be when he is available. The bucks with Middleton back in there need to prune a rotation. With the Sixers, they need to figure out their rotation,

who is playing and what their goddamn, team actually is. Like it's a complete change of worldview when Joel goes in and out of the lineup to that point. Yeah, Bisselli had been largely starting at center, sometimes starting next to Andre Drummond in these weird big lineups. He starts at Power Forward next to Embed, but only plays, I believe, like 14 minutes in that game the other day against the Bulls just seemed, and to be honest, I think that's what they should do. I think they look a little bit better with Jared McCain starting the second half in that game. Obviously, Caleb Martin is in the mixer. There's just so many pieces to figure out.

And so while I like what they have, I think if all of those guys, we knew that they were going to be playing throughout the rest of this season, I would like them more. You also don't know when Joel's going to go in and out from this point forward. You don't know when Paul is going to go in and out

from this point forward. It's just like it's constantly trying to find consistency while things are just going all around them. I think a lot about the community meme that we see where Troy is like waving the sweater or whatever and the fire is going on all around them. that's the Sixer season from this point forward. And so I think they're more talented,

but I don't know if I believe in them more. Well, yeah, the role of the dice on this sixth, this Sixer season has led to a lot of weird timelines and we're seeing one of them play out right in front of us. I do wonder along those lines if they are going to be one of those teams or at least should be one of those teams where they don't have a defined starting lineup, where it is a, oh, this matchup McCain makes sense, this matchup Yabuselli makes sense.

I think overall we can say Caleb Martin is not really making sense. because I don't think I've seen him hit a damn thing all year. So until he starts making a shot, he's going to be a little bit more marginalized in the lineup. But I will say this, it's good just to see the Sixers playing actual basketball. It's good to see a version of their rotation and their lineup where at least most of their guys are reasonably healthy right now.

For really the first time all year, it's not just in B, but there's been so many guys in and out of action for them. So I want to see it. I think in our heart of hearts, we believe in some of the core of what they can be. certainly better than one of the worst teams in the east. But as far as betting them against the bucks,

I just, I can't quite get there. Yeah. And the thing is, like you guys said, they're still working out. It's not just rotation questions. It's like your style of play. Integrating Paul George into this was always going to be, you know, a bit challenging in year one. And the regular season was supposed to be a testing ground for this.

But if none of your main pieces are ever, you know, working on their chemistry on the floor, it just takes that much longer for them to cohere into, again, the kind of team that we all assumed they would be going into this season. Can I throw one thing at you guys as it relates to Paul George? How many games do you think Paul George has scored with 20 points or more this season?

Two? Somehow you both shot over. It's one. You had one game against the Knicks. otherwise, yeah, he's been kind of floating in and out. Granted, coming back from his own series of injuries over the course of this year, and he is going to be more of like a flex utility knife piece for them, right?

Like that is ultimately going to be his role. But I would hope on some nights he has a little more explosion than what he's shown and isn't just like a go along to get a long kind of rotation piece. Like he needs to be a star. So what would you guys say is the most likely finish for the Sixers? So discounting the whole setup to the question. of like this point forward, just in totality. Is it, A, they end up tanking because they have too many injuries and just a flag here.

Joel told Tim Bontems that there actually is no injury. It's just a bunch of swelling that they need to figure out, which is really cool. He even says outright, it's been extremely depressing, which, yes, I agree. What is swelling, if not an injury? I think he's differentiating between like a surgery, something that needs surgery or has had surgery. Or an ACL or something like that. But if your knee is swelling to the point that it impairs your mobility, my guy, that's an injury. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess we're. Tomato. Yeah. I think he's thinking I'm playing through this and it's just kind of be week to week day to day, a day sort of thing. So four options.

Tanking. They finish in the play in, which by the way, there's seven and 15 and they're a game and a half back of the play. Yeah. Fucking Eastern Conference, baby. Let's go. Uh, they finish in the second round, which is a yearly tradition for the Sixers or they make the finals.

What are the four options is small? most likely. I had to put it out there. They're going to make the plan. Yeah. Okay. That's it. The bar is so low, again, like, they're going to trip over the bulls and wind up in the play-in.

The Pacers have been so disappointing this year. The Nets, I think, have been played above and beyond expectations, and the Sixers are still probably going to end up better than them for the year, despite their disastrous start. So I just don't see a way with this east that they don't end up in that group one way or another. Yeah, playing for me as well. I'm like making the finals That is completely off of the table for this season Like it's just not going to happen

They're just not going to turn into a fully You know, realized version of themselves Before, you know, they get to a goddamn NBA finals Like I just, I can't see that Second round, I mean If they were able to somehow, you know, get into like the top six, which I guess isn't completely impossible, but seems unlikely. I guess it's not completely like off the table.

But yeah, finals, zero, zero chance. And there's just a lot of teams in front of them that are just begging to be vaulted over. Like the pistons and sixers are dying to be in the playing mix while the nets are like, please Dennis Schroeder, can you just like twist an ankle like accidentally so we could not win these fucking games anymore? But we should talk about, since we're talking about the Nets, we should talk about the Bucks just briefly here. I kind of agree with you guys overall. The Bucks kind of have something here. I think Andre Jackson jumping into the mix in the starting lineup has really buoyed them. Like he makes a clear and present

like impact defensively and Taurian Prince, excuse me, has been good in that role by and large. I still get pretty worried when Dame isn't clicking at the same time of Janus where it's like what else you got. There's a little too much narrowness to harking back to last week. We were talking about 3 and D guys and how I think 3D guys kind of have to take a next step here to in order to really like make an impact now. There's a little too much narrowness, too much three and not much else to some of the other options outside of the primary action between Damon Yannis, which as we've kind of diagnosed on and on again, isn't necessarily bulletproof at this moment. I do think if Middleton, though, can step in and be Torian Prince heavy at this point,

so be a stretch four, sort of, but do a little bit more. I think it makes a huge impact. He had six assists in that game against the Nets. But in that like additional creation, I think they're just begging for it. And so I guess what I'm saying here is like, if he's just not prime Chris Middleton, but can be like a good version of this type of player and Andre Jackson can be the perimeter wing stopper. It makes me want to believe in them a little bit more than I would otherwise. Yeah, I don't even know how much they need him to create per se. Like the offense is really good with Dame and Janice creating the bulk of it.

They just need someone who can catch on the move and facilitate, who can catch on the weak side and extend a play and extend an advantage. Like, that's where these guys, as you're saying, are so limited. They do have good shooters, but they're guys who aren't stepping out of that zone far enough. And we probably haven't mentioned enough on this podcast that by coincidence, Torian Prince is leading the league in three point percentage of the season. He's hitting everything.

And over and beyond that, over this recent stretch, all of their shooters are really hitting. Like, if you are wary about the bucks at all and you don't want to over index on their recent success, I would say two things. Them and the Sixers both have been, I think, beating up on some lesser teams

just by virtue of the way the schedule has broken. The box have a beautiful schedule. It's really laid it out nicely for them. But also, like, they are going to, look good when everyone is hitting. When Gary Trent Jr., the coin flip of his game is hitting and hitting and hitting and hitting, when Bobby Portis is knocking down shots, obviously you can expect that from Tori and Prince, but when all of these role players are cashing in at the same time, they're always going to look good. But to your point, Justin, what happens when the water gets

turned off a little bit? That is where they struggle. That is where they need Middleton most. And I think we're going to have to see over the back part of the season how much of that he's able to provide. Yeah, my favorite thing about the Middleton thing coming back is that it marginalizes Bobby Portis, who desperately needs to be marginalized. Like, sometimes there's just games where they're, like, running ISOs for this dude. And it's like, that just has to stop. And, you know, that will make it so that they have creators for all 48 minutes of the game, right? like Janice and Dame don't have to be minutes heavy. They could stagger the usage of Dame, Janice, and Middleton,

and always have competence creating on offense. And then, you know, depending on the front court mates that you put with Middleton, you can have, you know, a decent, passable defense, if not a good one. And that'll be their recipe with piecing together, you know, like a more well-relixtable. lineups throughout the regular season. But, yeah, Middleton has to stay on the floor. And that's, to me, to me, again, when I watch the box, when I'm just like, oh, God, this Bobby Portis thing again,

these, like, anchoring bench lineups, like, that's, that's not good for anybody. And I think the Middleton thing desperately helps that. And Jackson, Jr., like, plays really hard, kind of a basket case at times when it's, like making decisions, but, you know, his actual youth in athleticism next to Middleton will be greatly, sorely needed. And that's what I see for them going down a stretch. Yeah, they're kind of stuck in this coin flip corollary mode where they're just hoping that

eventually, you know, if Gary Trent isn't hitting, then Tori and Prince will be or Andre Jackson is. And obviously there are times when the record sort of scratches and you're like, well, nobody's hitting. Where do we go to? In this game against the Nets, it was Bobby Porters. He played out of his fucking gourd. But how many of those games are you going to get? And so if Millington can be a stabilizing force for eventually, I believe, the first unit,

if you could just get more reliable, as Rob said, facilitation plus some of the other things you're expecting from. I think that's like the right bar we should shoot for. We shouldn't be prime Chris Minleton. I think they can get by with like, okay, Chris Millington, like a Cam Johnson plus sort of player is what they need to maybe just round out what they have just to be good, if not electric, is what like they kind of probably expected two years ago. I think what we're talking about with a lot of these guys, maybe Poppy Portis most of all,

is what I consider sort of like the Jeff Green zone, which is guys who can do a lot, but the more you have to rely on them, the worse your team is going to be. And so if you can count on the one breakout Bobby Portis game in a series or the one or two of those games in a series, that's money. If he has to be good every game, your team is not, it's not going to go anywhere. So, Middleton can hopefully relieve some of the pressure on guys like that. Yeah.

Well, since we're talking Jeff Green, let's go to his old team now, which is begging, praying for some help at this point. What if I told you this question is, the Nuggets biggest off-season disaster wasn't letting KCP go. So, I think the,

the Nuggets are having a bit of an issue to the point where Nicola Yokic has been more forthright and more tense, I guess, I would say, than he typically is publicly. They lose in just awful fashion against the Wizards, a team that had lost, what was it, 16 in a row, I believe, going into that game despite Nicola Yokish putting up 50 plus and a triple double. They did fine against the Hawks last night. But I think one thing that's been brewing underneath all this depth consternation is, I don't know what to expect from Jamal Murray, night in and night out.

I don't know if you guys have seen the clips of him in the Cavs game where he's like, he's just kind of griping or he's just like in a mood. Like Aaron Gordon's calling him over to a huddle. He won't go. I don't know, man. We could talk at Nazim about the depth and letting KCP go. But like, I'm starting to wonder if that extension, the four year max extension that they gave to Jamal Murray after this season.

So four more after this is actually the big. issue going forward. I mean, they're still good when he's out there. Sort of. I think sort of. Most, like, their starting groups with Gordon and Watson both have been awesome. So, like, and Christian Brown, I think to circle back to the kind of the KCP part, Christian Brown has definitely gotten way better. He's been money. And he's been exactly what they need him to be to step into that starting role. My problem with all of this in letting KCP go was not that Christian Brown wasn't qualified. It's that why would you want both

of those guys. And I feel like that's kind of where we are with them still. Like, Jamal Murray is not the version that helped take the nuggets to the title. That's not the guy we're seeing on the floor on a nightly basis. It's not even close right now. They are praying that version is still in there somewhere and that over a year of, you know, nursing injuries and rehabilitation and kind of easing himself into this thing that hopefully you can get to that point. I think we're seeing more and more reasons to doubt that by the day. But ultimately, like, their starting lineup is not the reason that they're

losing. I think there are two reasons. It's the depth and it's the fact they can't guard anybody. That seems like an issue. Let me re-contextualize this then. Okay. Is the problem not that Jamal Murray needs to be great? It's that they can get by with just solid

at that position. To that point was the nuggets are five and one with Russell Westbrook starting this season. Okay. Look, I'm not going to touch that one. We should say he's been good for them. Russ has been legitimately pretty good for them. He plays with energy.

Yeah, the vision of what he was supposed to bring to the team he has basically delivered on in terms of giving them a change of pace and like, you know, like you guys said, like energy and hustle and all of that stuff. And, you know, giving them like transition buckets, which has never been like a major strength of the nuggets. And so, yeah. But how I know Jamal Murray is playing badly is the fact that Yoke has dropped 56 and 48 and back-to-back games. He does not want to do that. That's not his natural inclination. But he's like, I dropped 50 on the Wizards and lost. This is nuts.

You know, obviously, the defense is problematic. Losing KCP does not help that. No. And, you know, they've always been in the regular season. They're like, all right, we're pacing ourselves on defense because we can crush anybody. offensively. I just think that calibration has just been off this year.

Like, they need to be trying harder. And, you know, like, I get it. I think the Yokish thing that's happening is that they're not playing his more optimal style of defense. They're putting him in a drop because they want to reserve his energy because he's doing everything on offense. Like, when two years ago, when they had a competent defense, he was playing more up on that pick and roll.

And they, you know, they did a decent amount of scrambling behind the play. And, you know, he's pretty good at communications and pre-switches and all of that stuff. But this year, they're just like, look, that takes more energy, more bandwidth for him to play that way. And so let's just keep him in the drop, even though, like, obviously this guy can't jump over a freaking penny. And that's just not how you want to play a center like Yo Kitch. And so it's, you know, it's having its effect. But I do think there's something of what Justin is saying about Murray because I think the defense is downstream of Yokic having to do everything while he's out there.

And look, he's having one of the best offensive seasons ever. We get it. But I just think it's suboptimal for this team. Yeah, I almost wonder if Calvin Booth was aggressive in the wrong ways. Like letting KCP walk. and turning the keys over to young guys who have improved them themselves. Brown has acquitted himself, but there's still the Bain Watson question, the Strather question, and just on and on, right?

I wonder if the move actually was bring KCP back and turn Murray into two players, actually use Murray, turn them into depth. Because what Yokic is craving for at this point is just anybody. He just needs guys to fill out spots, and I think that they would be fine. They would probably be in the title mix if you just had league average. And I think that's what Russ is giving them. He's not just blowing the doors off. He's not prime Russ.

Like, yeah, he'll flirt with triple doubles and whatnot. But he's giving energy and he's playing within the system and giving them enough in order to do so. And so I don't know. I just, this is not a question that's going to go away. And I know Murray does this time and time again. He has, he's a slow starter historically, at least since the injury. And then just pops all of a sudden becomes the best player in the world in the playoffs. I don't see that happening again.

And so I think this isn't just that this season question. This is now the remainder of Yokic's. prime question that they're going to have to deal with, even if they get this right this season. Well, Andrew's just talking about a multi-year track record in the past with Murray, right? This is also not a one-season blip in that regard. Like, this is who he is. He is a guy who starts slow. He is a guy who deals with a lot of nagging injuries.

And we're seeing now he's at a point where those nagging injuries are starting to overtake the aggressiveness in his game and are really starting to compromise how the Nuggets need to play and the player that they need him to be. I just think that Wizards loss is going to be one of those hard look in the mirror moments. And it's either going to be the thing we talk about all year as they just like literally could not stop these guys in a way that is frankly embarrassing or as a wake up call because, you know, we saw them answer the bell with the Hawks, right? We saw they don't want to be that team that gets fucking run off the floor by the Wizards. But the overall issue in that game

is Jamal Murray related in that he can't guard anyone either. Although he, you know, he didn't play in that particular game, but that is the structure of the team. Whether you're talking about Russ, whether you're talking about Murray, talking about the vast majority of the bench. The only, like the best defensive players on the nuggets are Christian Brown, Aaron Gordon. Payton Watson, I think in skill and talent and athleticism, sure, in judgment, not always.

No, not always. And then it's like dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, Nicole Yokic question mark. Like, even in the, even in the drop, which is, as well has said, not his optimal defensive usage or the way that he is best to Florida, even probably the way he wants to play on that end, he just like has to be one of their better defenders because none of these other guys can actually keep someone in front of them. So it is a, it is a recurring and ongoing problem, whether Murray is in or out of the lineup,

regardless of who you're playing, even if it's the worst team in the league, they have to figure out a way to stop somebody. And I'm just not sure they have the personnel to do it. Look, to address what Justin said about maybe they should have traded Jamal Murray, I want to be consistent on this. I like the idea that he's who they drafted. They developed him, won the championship with him, and him being very instrumental in that,

and then wanted to reward him, even though his play in the most reason for postseason was not that of a max player. But it's like, look, you're our guy, you and Nicola have developed this thing. Internally, Jamal Murray is like he is a leader on the team. Like, he just is. And so I like the consistency.

I like the sentiment of it, of being like, yo, Murray's a nugget. We're going to make him a nugget for life. We're going to work through these injuries. But, you know, the cold-hearted businessman in me just does, yeah, I look at the Murray deal and I'm like, damn. Like, if he's, if this is the best he's going to play for the next five years, like this level, it's a bad deal. It's a horrible deal. Can I just say, I don't think it will be. I do think he's going to have recurring injury issues.

I do think he needs to find a way to get over this particular hump. I'm just hard pressed to believe that we have seen the absolute best of Jamal Murray. I think he's going to get back to a really high level. But it may take years, right? It may take an extended period of time to really get back. Years. I think the issue I have is this is not just the injury stuff and the poor play at times. It's just the burbles of like chemistry stuff.

And like frankly, like going to watch a fucking M. fight in the midst of like a team trip like that stuff just really just like burns my ass like you can't be doing that it just seems like this isn't something that we're projecting onto the team because they're playing poorly it seems like if anything it's bursting off the screen and you have to suppress the idea that this isn't an issue uh like you're trying to turn away from waz just take note you and i are not going to be popping out to go see like a boxing match or an m m m mary fight during this upcoming NBA cup trip we've got planned and we got to be locked locked in every step of the way.

I don't got private jet money, but, you know, it is what it is. Here's the thing about Murray and the chemistry stuff. He is a very proud guy. He holds himself to a very high standard. He's serious about his craft, and he has not been delivered. And I think he's just frustrated with himself for not delivering. That's what I think this is. I don't think this is some, like, bigger issue

that him and his teammates are like beefing with each other. I think Jamal Murray, who holds himself accountable in terms of what he thinks, the level of player he views himself to be and knowing that he has not produced that this year. That's what I think is happening. I mean, he's also an emotional and reactive player too. And the nuggets at their best kind of benefit from the sort of fire and ice thing he and Nicola have. But when you're not delivering as far as the saying in any of the ways you or your team expect you to do, you just get frustrated and down on yourself

and you get into that sort of like mental hole that he now has to find his way out of too. It's like when I come up with a sick analogy and then I'm like, nah. Gotta dig deeper. I like Wads being the Maggie Haberman of Jamal Murray's just like mental state. Come on, man.

Come on, man. Access journalism at its finest, boy. Charles is Jamal Murray. Yeah. With Jamal Murray. All right. I want to get back to something about stars and star trades later, but we can address that deeper in the show.

But they played the Hawks last night. I want to talk about Trey Young, who's having the weirdest season in NBA history. The question right now is this season, Trey Young has been blank. Rob, how would you fill in this point? Oh, Waz, go ahead. Evolved.

He's been evolved. It looks like a Pokemon. I think, I'm actually proud to be standing corrected by Trey Young's willingness to seed some of the gears and controls of the offense to the young guys

and empowering these guys to explore the outer limits of their capabilities. Look, Dyson Daniels, you know, nobody's going to accuse him of being Kobe, but he has the freedom them in the space to try different things, even if it isn't always working. He's just been a more offensive-minded player than he's ever been, ever in his career. And if you would have told me that before the season, that Tray Young would allow this on his

watch, I'd have been like, there's no way that's going to happen. But that hasn't been the case. Jalen Johnson's got the freaking ultimate green light. This certain times, I'm just like, whoa, like, I love you, Jalen Johnson. And we might get into that in the, you know, the 2021 draft. But like sometimes I'm like, he's bordering on chucking at times. And it's just, it's just fine. And Trey Young is, you know, he's at the helm of this renaissance that the Hawks are having with their young guys, man.

You know, their trio of light skin brothers. And I'm happy to see it, man. I love that I was wrong about that. And Trey Young had this in him. I think we all were. And this is, he's doing a lot of the. things that we and especially Quinn Snyder have been kind of asking him to do, right?

Like giving the ball up in that way, participating in a more democratic offense. I would say overall, the result, though, has been he is more confusing than ever because he is doing all those things. He has some of the highest assist numbers in the league. The offense, I've loved watching the Hawks this year.

Legitimately loved watching the Hawks. I did not expect that. And this is by far the worst shooting season of Trey Young's career. Like, by far. So what are we supposed to make of that? Because he has had an awesome season, but the kind of awesome season where he's shooting 39%. Yes. My characterization was discordant because of that split right there. Like the shooting is awful at times. There was a point middle of the third quarter in that Nuggets game where his line was one point. He was shooting 0 for five from the field, but he had eight

assists. And so he's kind of defaulted. I think it was conscious. Like, I don't think it's because he's been shooting so poorly. He's, he's defaulted to this role. But, like, he's the orchestrator making everything happens. And the fact that Jalen Johnson wasn't playing in that game left them with no options because Trey is in this mode where he's feeding everybody. He almost feels like he has to talk himself into entering the previous Trey Young edition, the Knicks, like, taking a bow version to start jacking it up in the way that he used to. And so I got to give him credit in one respect because it's working. He is a net neutral. If you look at some of the numbers and like as a result, because the Hawks by and large are quite bad. They're pretty bad on offense and pretty bad on defense. He's third in the team in

net rating. And so I think it's working to a large degree in part because like he's highlighting his best aspect, which is the playmaking. He's just one of our most creative best passers. And I think this setup at the very least almost like leans into the probably the one thing that's, makes him special. I think there's some growing pains on both sides of it. Clearly, having had the ball in his hands so much, he has probably been accustomed to a certain kind of rhythm going into his shots, a certain level of control

over the particulars of a possession, that are a little more rush now or a little more improvisational now in a way that is probably bringing down his shooting a little bit. I also think in terms of these other guys who are being leveraged in new and exciting ways, your Dyson Daniels is and your Jalen Johnsons. And really up and down the rotation, like Zachary Riesichet, who is just so young coming into this process too,

all of these guys are being stretched in a way that I think can inflate their turnover numbers a little bit. And that's where you sort of see the tray effect is when he is on the floor, this is a pretty controlled and measured team. And when he's out of the mix, you can see how almost like fly by night they are. And how haphazard their offense can look at times. Like they do have all of these guys who can do all of these things who can put the ball on the floor, who can make decisions, who can finish. and some of them can shoot.

But he is the guy who binds it all together. He's the person who makes that kind of team even makes sense to the degree it does, which granted is a degree that can compete with the best teams in the league and lose to the worst teams in the league. So if that makes sense, I guess that's news to me. But the Hawks do have a kind of internal logic to them. Yeah.

And to me, like the results on the floor matter. Like his lack of shooting efficiency matters in, you know, just the nuts. bolts of like how a team is performing, but I think on a more macro zoomed out analysis of what Trey is doing, like, it's obvious that he feels invested and is bought in on the talent of the young guy and it's like, we should be nurturing their talent. Because if he didn't, he would just monopolize everything like he always did, you know, be distrusting of his teammates' ability to orchestrate and make, you know, good decisions

and good offense happens. So to me that, like, that means more than anything that Trey Young looks at these guys, even if, you know, remember he called Risha Shay, a born role player. But he's looking at Jalen. He's looking at Dyson Daniels, Risha Shay. And he's like, look, man, these guys have something. And I want us to collectively nurture that. And I think that is a beautiful and positive spin. And, you know, I got a shout out Quintz Snyder for getting the buy-in as you guys.

guys know, that is basically 80% of an NBA coach's job. Like, yes, you can draw up all your flowery, beautiful plays and all of that and design the slickest offense ever. If these dudes don't give a damn about what you have to say, it doesn't matter. And Quinn Snyder has convinced Tray Young that like, yo, this is the best way for us to move going forward. So that's dope, too. He really strikes the balance of still being the guy on the team, despite the fact that he's getting other guys involved. He's the guy behind the other guys. And yet he's still the guy.

Exactly. And to that point, 12.2 assists from Trey Young this year, by far leads the NBA. A little fun with numbers here. There have been 17 other instances of 12 plus assists in the NBA history. So let's just say that right now. And there's five players who have contributed to those 17 instances. Can you name those five guys? Steve Nash for one.

Nope. No, he's never out of 12 assists season? Apparently. John Stockton. I mean, Stockton's got to be up there. Of course. Has Jason Kidd ever done this? No.

How about CP? CP just climbed to what, I think, third on the all-time assist list? Second on the all-time assist list. Magic? Magic is one. Man, this is tough. The other three are very tough. Is it Rajan Rondo?

No. That's a good guess, though. Westbrook. It's also a good guess, but no. Didn't guess Yokic, which I'm shocked by. Kevin Johnson, these, I think these are all one-timers.

Kevin Johnson. Johnson wants to average 12 assists? Yes. Well, these 90s box scores, we know like the 80s and 90s, like they were doing a lot of, yeah, a lot of marketing with these stats,

but go ahead. Isaiah Thomas is another one. Wow. And Kevin Porter, not Kevin Porter, junior, but a guy named Kevin Porter who played for the Pistons in 78, 79. Wow.

That's shocking. So, Trey Young is the sixth player if he continues on his path. I have a little more fun with numbers as Trey Young is concerned. Love it. So obviously he leads the league and assists. We mentioned that. In terms of assists to teammates

at the rim, so dunks, layups, all the good stuff, he has 50 more assists this season than the next guy. That is insane. And it is, look, he's one the best lob passers in the league. If Clint Capella had marginally better hands, he probably would have been an all-star by now.

So it's Capella, it's a congo. Jalen Johnson is obviously feasting on a lot of that. It's getting guys out in transition. It's Risha Shea, as we said, it's D'Andre Hunter having the season of his life worthy of note, despite all of my extended criticism and skepticism, but the D'Andre Hunter experience, it's Dyson Daniels, who I think has really found himself

as a slasher and a cutter within this group, too. So not only creating great looks for his teammates, but the highest possible value-grade looks. Only one game over 500, but the most fascinating, you know, just over 500 teams. I'm locked in every night that they're on. They're, if not one, then definitely, like, in the top three of my Lee pass favorites. When they played the Bucks the other night, the Bucks just completely slept, walk through that game and just didn't give a damn.

It was just, like, obvious, they didn't even try. They were just getting smoked in transition. But what I liked is that the Hawks, like, we're not the type of team you can sleep walk through. Like, you have to bring your. a game to beat us. We play hard. We play together. That's what I liked about that game, man. All right. Let's flip now to a team that they beat in dramatic fashion in OT the other night. A game that might have lasted like five hours. I was trying to catch up the next night. And I was

like, I started drinking coffee. And then by the end of the game, I was like eating lunch. It was just like, it's just a marathon experience. I'm talking about Los Angeles Lakers. This is a big old conversation about LeBron and AD, but I'll get into it this way, which is I've been perplexed by LeBron's insistent until literally last night about playing every single game. It's not just something that's happening. It seems almost like his narrative, a personal narrative for this season. I play every game. I want to play every game. And while that's commendable, he's almost 40 fucking years old.

and it doesn't seem to be in the best interest of anyone because he's just kind of dogging it defensively. He's showing signs of aging in a way that, like, is totally understandable. Again, he's about to be 40 years older than this month. But it's like starting to show more than it ever has before. And I'm just, I'm pretty perplexed. So I asked, like, why is this such a thing for him? Is he, like, so much wrapped up in, like, trying to prove something to himself at this

point of his career? Is it because the Lakers are just not ready to make a title run? Like, what's going on here? See, I find it perplexing that you would raise this, Justin, because look, I miss a pod now and again. Wazel take some personal time, but like, you are our show up for

every game podcast. Iron Man. Yeah. Calrickin. Can you not identify with just the pure love of the game that LeBron is showing and wanting to deliver every night? He's the Lou Gehrig of group chat. Perhaps that's why I bring it up.

Yeah. Like maybe I see myself in the Bron. We're both equally successful. We both have media companies that are failing miserably, I guess. I just look, I just think a lot of things that happens in and around LeBron's career at this point seem to be geared in a direction of narrative. And as you guys know, he's had cameras following him for like the last five years. He's making a movie, documentary about himself. And I wonder, I wonder, I wonder if this is part of that.

Like, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm 39, but I'm going to play every game this season and blah, blah, like, I wonder. Because, again, getting his kid on the team who is so clearly not an NBA player, but it makes for good copy and it looks great in a documentary. Well, it only makes for good documentary content if you can get the B roll. And to do that Brani is going to have to make a shot.

Did you see the one from last night? That was tough. He's not, he's not, he's not in a play. He's not good. It's fine. It's fine, but he's not. Why force that outside of the context of it's cool for branding and marketing purposes. Like, it's so obviously not related to the business of basketball.

Yep. So why shoehorn this thing in there if it's anything else? Like, he's not even close to an NBA player. Here's my theory. J.R. Smith's brother was closer to the NBA legitimacy than this. Shout out to Chris. Yeah. What was it, Jamal Cousins or something just in every summer league? here's my working theory with LeBron to armchair cycle analyze him, which we haven't done for a couple years, so I'm glad to get back into this action. We used to do this every day on blogs, so shouts to history, I guess. It seemed like for a while LeBron was intent on being the franchise, like subverting that whole idea that like he plays for a franchise. He's the franchise, and when he goes to a different team, everything gloms on to his wishes. It seems like

now it's not about building the type of team that he wants and picking the players he wants next to him. It's about picking the context with which he wants to end his career. It's more like a runner reaching a PR, like a personal record, like a weightlifter, trying to prove to himself or prove to others that he could still do something. And so the, the I play every game thing seems like a challenge to himself, perhaps in part because he just wants the narrative finish to look a certain way in a way that frankly Kobe also did. But also perhaps he's just seeing that the Lakers, like, weren't ready to be a tile contender. He just wanted to stay in L.A. That's also part of the reason why he went to L.A. to begin with.

Maybe he just wants his life to be a certain way more than he wants his team to be a certain way, which is like fine. He's earned that right. But it is weird, especially because Anthony Davis is playing the best basketball of his life. And so it's like, why are we doing this? In particular, why is Anthony Davis still doing this? That's the goal. I guess I just don't have a problem with a guy. 21 years into his career who has won everything there is to win finding things to care about even if that thing is I want to play every game

like great try it clearly I think we're running into the point of the season where we're seeing the costs of doing that and now they're starting to maybe take a more losing LeBron minutes guys they're losing LeBron minutes but at the same look I think there's a multi-layered consideration set here

one is all of the sort of personal pride narrative things we've already discussed, whether they're documentary geared, whether it's his best chance to make an all-NBA team this season, like, however you want to qualify that, or if it's just a thing that he really cares about, all that's great. I do think there is like a legit leadership thing with LeBron, where it's not only within the context of the Lakers, but setting a standard for the league, I think is something that actually matters to him. Hell yeah. Yes, they are losing his minutes. The on-off numbers with LeBron are complicated,

to say the least, but also what would you have them do? Like, do you just want to see them run Cam Reddish out for 40 minutes? Like, I don't think they have a lot of great options if he doesn't play. Yeah. Well, I think that's why it's ultimately an Anthony Davis question, which is part two of this two-part question that I'm introducing here. It's like, has Anthony Davis's unwavering commitment to LeBron? And he has been more committed to LeBron than any teammate previously,

or at the very least he's had the opportunity to do so because LeBron stayed put in L.A. in the way that he didn't for the Cavs and Kevin Love might have done the same exact thing. but has it ultimately worked out for AD's career? Because I think at first, I would say yes. AD needs LeBron in part because LeBron is amazing, but also because as we talked about before, 80's the type of player who needs to be the best player, but not the best leader.

But on the back end, these most recent seasons, it seems like he's kind of carrying LeBron. And while that subversion makes sense, like he's ready to compete for titles right now. He's one of the five to ten best players in NBA playing at the peak of his powers. It's disappointing to me for him to basically not take LeBron's cue and be like, as soon as I'm ready, I'm going to ask to be going elsewhere. In fact, he's staying put and kind of like souring the back end of his career from a team standpoint. I know they made the West finals the other year, but like that was a depressed West.

Obviously, they got completely dispatched by the Nuggets. And so I'm just like, I'm kind of disappointed that AD's like not taking the LeBron row. ultimately and going somewhere else and trying to win at the highest level. Okay. First of all, your undercutting of the Nuggets title there while subtle is noted. Not intentional, but I guess just reflex.

The depressed West. Like here's the thing. LeBron is not anywhere near the Lakers' biggest problem. And so ultimately, like this is a LeBron conversation and it is a Lakers conversation. And I take your point ultimately that if, if A.D. were a more cutthroat operator in the space, then yes,

requesting another trade. He would be leveraging his contracts in a different way. He would be a little bit more of a mercenary in the way that LeBron historically has applied pressure to teams in that way. He went to the Lakers when LeBron was there and he won a title. Like, that's why we do this, right? Five years ago. He won. He won a title.

He went to the conference finals. As you said another year, like, I don't care how depressed the field is you go to the conference finals. That's a great achievement. He's done more in his. time as a lake or by far than he did his time as a pelican. And if you want to flash back and say, what if he had become a Celtic instead at the time he requested his trade from New Orleans, like it's an interesting counterfactual that honestly unwinds all of recent NBA history, because Jalen Brown probably would have to have been involved in that deal to make it work.

So it's just a completely different future with a completely different Celtics team. I think 80 could have been wildly successful anywhere he went, basically. He's an awesome two-way player. He picked L.A. He gets to be the best player on the most known and marketable and well-established team in the NBA. He gets to be a star. And he gets to play with LeBron James

while he does. Like I know that the Lakers aren't very good right now, but I don't really see the great costs of him making this decision when again, he won a freaking title. Yeah, I think on the court it's been justified. Like, it hasn't been a slam dunk. I don't, like, I'm not one of those people that pooh-poo's the bubble championship.

But I think if somebody wants to say, like, the on-court accomplishment since he's gotten to L.A. could be like, a little disappointing. But I won't quibble with that. But I would say, you know, on balance, you could say he's done enough to justify the forcing of the trade and all of that stuff. Where I think this is a complete blowout is just the off-the-court considerations. Just the idea that, like, he gets to beat Anthony Davis on the Lakers and do none of the work of, face of franchise, yada, yada, yada, yada, like it's just not on him to do,

and he doesn't want to do it. Also, what I think is very important in considering this, being young in the physical prime of your life, being a hundred-something millionaire twice, three times over, in the city of Los Angeles, it's pretty freaking nice. You know that more than all of us. It's... It's a great life.

And so to me, the lake. I mean, the other day at the office was like, I'm going for lunch at Soho House. Like, that's just the kind of life he's living. So, yeah. Shout to my man Tyler who came with me. Right. Yeah, I just think it's like, there's no way Anthony Davis looks at this and says, I should have been in Boston.

The people of Dorchester would have loved me. That was never going to happen. His dad, in fact, was like just burning the bridges before they reached. that shit. Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't necessarily disagree with you. If Eddie just wants this for his life, and I agree, I think this is what he wanted, then that's fine to a certain extent, but I almost feel like we've been too soft on this whole issue over the past couple of years where it's like, we've almost allowed

athletes to want to prioritize something other than winning because the main impetus for LeBron jumping around was to win titles. And in fact, we've gone the opposite way where we've cleared the lane where it's like, oh, it's cool if you want to just like have fun and be like a totally normal adult. It's just like, no, you should be a fucking grinder who wants to win titles year in and year out. Well, very, also, but I was told that, you know, team hopping and all of that was bad for the game. I know. Okay.

People not being. I mean, brings this back to Yokic. People not being identified with their franchise and blah, blah, blah, it's bad. The fans need to be seeing consistency and blah, blah, blah. That's what the owners told me. This gets back to the whole Yokish conversation because I didn't want to bring it up there because I think AD is the prime example of this. like should players be asking for more trades? We've gotten to this point where nobody does it anymore,

but I actually think it's good for the sport, both because it adds drama and intrigue to the palace intrigue stuff and like the behind closed door stuff, but also we'll have better teams as a result of this. Like Yoko is like just like pulling his hair out, if he had hair, I guess his like weird like evil beard thing he has going this year. Like just trying to get like steady rotational minutes.

He should be asking for a trade. 80 should be asking for a trade. Go play with Trey Young. If they don't want to trade for Tray Young, go play with Tray Young and the Hawks. NBA editor demands blood. So like, no kid should be like forcing his way to Miami or something. Is that what we're doing right now? I don't know, but I just think you're going too far in the other direction.

In the other direction. I got you. Too much loyalty. I would like to offer one counterpoint in this conversation to Justin's credit. the byproduct of AD playing with LeBron is that he was in Space Jam a new legacy and you can never wash that off. That's just who you are for the rest of your life. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to Anthony Davis for that. Yeah. When he was in New Orleans, I remember distinctly he was in like one of the barbershop movies as like a cameo. Like I think it was like Barbershop four back to Chicago or

something. So he's definitely leveled up in that regard. But just he's playing awesome. He's missed seven total games the past two seasons, which is the big issue. And if you really want to get into the nuts and balls of it, maybe that's why he signed the extension last off season, wasn't sure if he would be able to be healthy enough in order to play this well. But he's not missing games. He's 25, 12, and basically four with two blocks. Like, he's awesome.

And it's just disappointing that he's like kind of carrying a team with Cam Reddish, with all these other guys. He can't even get a backup center on the fucking wrong. I think your problem is with Jeannie Buss and her lackey Rob Polinka more than any. thing. Oh, yeah. I mean, if you want to take a look at some of the rosters the past couple of years, I have sketched out like the Lakers' third best players over the past since they won a title. And it's like some combination of Reeves or Russell the past three seasons. It's really, and then it's Mike Monk and then it's Dennis Trigger.

Yeah. Look, the Lakers situation has been suboptimal for a while to say the least in terms of the supporting talent. I do want to say this. I think part of the responsibility of being an NBA superstar, we talk a lot about what the money is for in terms of wearing that mantle and what obligation you have to the league and what obligation you have to cultivating the NBA product. I also think part of it is dealing with suboptimal circumstances. And LeBron found ways to navigate around that, as is his right as not just a superstar,

but the NBA's er star and the best player may be of all time. Like I get why he did everything that he did. But also if you look around at the other kind of model stars, their teams had weird seasons and down seasons. Steph got hurt, went through incredible trials, and then came back and won a title, right? Like, all the great stars have these sorts of blips where they have the shoulder and weather some stuff. I think it's kind of part of the process. I think if you have a tailor-made situation for yourself all the time, you're not really carrying the responsibility in the way that you're supposed to.

Yeah. It builds character, you know? There you go. Look at Steph now, just begging, pining for Jonathan Kaminga to be his number two because they don't have a second super. Superstar. And in fact, they're on the trade market looking for a second superstar. Yeah. Anyway.

All right. Let's flip it to the next question. You're like you. Woj over here. Oh, come on. Dying for transactions. I just want good things to happen for good players. That's all.

Speaking of good players, two having different types of seasons. But I think we're in the point where we're ready for a reevaluation of John Morant. Maybe Anthony Edwards, too, considering. how the wolves have been playing of late. And so the question I was, I was noodling with as I was watching the wolves just lose that game against the Warriors the other night. Who are you taking from this point forward, Anthony Edwards or John Moran? So not just this season, but their careers from this point forward.

Was, who are you feeling these days? I mean, I think John Morant is, you know, pretty close in age to Ann. I was not like he's way older than him, but he's just a more advanced NBA freaking creator. He just is. His jump shot is way improved, shoots it with so much confidence now. When you compare it to, you know,

the level of shooter that he was when he came into the league, like he's just, you know, guys go under on him now. And I'm not saying he's, you know, some assassin, but he's just so confident with it. And you pair that with his, the way that he can see. the floor, for me, he's just a better player. He's just more well-rounded, you know, initiator.

And that's why it would be John Moran for me. I love Aunt Edwards, but he's just not there in terms of his command of the floor. When he detonates and he's getting to the basket and he's creating separation on his, you know, his jump shots from the perimeter, it looks just amazing and unstoppable. but like, you know, this past game, you got some free throw line two times. Like, he still just hasn't mastered, you know, the sort of nuances and the dark arts, if you will, of NBA shot creation for yourself and others. And that's why to me, Josh just like, he's just at an advanced level that isn't. And I don't see any reason why he won't always be, you know, just a savier operator with the ball in his hands.

I think the reason that might not always be the case is just because Ant is still so new to this. And you're right. The age difference is not so significant between them, but having the ball in your hands as the primary guy practical experience is pretty different in terms of just how much time those guys have had under their belt. I'm a believer in Ant in this comp. Both are awesome. Like we particularly getting reacquainted with the electricity of the John Morant experience has been so awesome this year. I don't want to poo-poo it at all. Jaws been terrific. I agree with your overall point that as a playmaker, he's a different level. And that's not even the best part of Jaws game,

but he's just a more evolved passer than Ant is. And we saw that last year in the playoffs, where when Edwards had to make the more advanced reads, he started to struggle a little bit. When the spacing wasn't quite as straightforward, he started to struggle a little bit. And that is one area where Jha has a little bit of a built-in advantage right now. Like if Edwards were operating with Memphis Grizzlies kind of spacing

on a nightly basis. I think his game would look a lot cleaner. I think the free throw attempts would pile up. I think the shots at the rim in the restricted area would pile up. You would see a lot less of him settling for threes in the way that he has and tried to hunt them over the course of this season for the wolves. I just think, like, operating in the context that Ant is being asked to offensively is not easy in that kind of clutter with those kinds of bigs. With Julius Randall doing all of the Julius Randall things, like that's not what any star wants to be doing. and he is making the best of it

and I think the two things that really separate them from me, I hear he was on the overall like kind of command and read of the game and Anna's going to have to grow into that the fact that he is already so far ahead of Jha as a long range shooter in particular but really as a shooter overall really I think makes his

overall trajectory that much more promising but also the defense. Jha is is backboarded historically by really good help defenders and Ant has those two but he plays up into people, particularly in really competitive games and playoff games. He can be an elite defender,

even if he isn't won every night. When the fire gets turned up on John Morant in a playoff series, he's getting put in the basket by Patrick Beverly. That is what we have been shown that he is on that end of the court. And so if you're taking aunt is what you're saying. If we're going to try to thread the needle here between two of the most exciting young stars in the league,

I am going to take Ant. Ant is currently shooting from three the exact same percentage that John Moran is shooting from the floor. To your point about just having the shooting unlocked, he's taking that at 10.5 times a game. The shooting at volume is insane. And like that's one thing that, frankly, I just don't think John Moran is ever going to get to that point. He has had like stats of shooting pretty well and he's definitely developed in that area. And it's just like not really his game, but he, it's always going to be something that you're going to ding. him for. I think what we're ultimately coming, like, circling around is there's just like a playmaking

it factor. Like if you were to like to carve out your, your superstar scoring guard, I think he would look a lot like Anthony Edwards for the defensive reasons that Rob is alluding to, the shooting. He's just like big. And also he plays all the time, something that John Moran does not obviously do. Like even in between some of the suspensions, like John will just miss games here and there. He missed one just the other day. And I think he's going to have to play. play with such reckless abandonment that he's going to continue to miss some, even if they aren't longer-term injuries. But in the moment, like when it is, dare I say, nut crunching time, like John Morant turns it on in a way that Anthony Edwards is fighting to do so. I don't know if

he won't get there down the road, but Ja has always had that aspect to his game. And I don't, I don't know, it's hard to not pick John in this instance for that reason. He just has something where he makes things work. Ant has the shooting on him, but John Moran so much better. at drawing contact when he gets downhill. He is just so good at doing that. And in the clutch, that's like generally what he'll do. He'll freaking put his head down, draw contact, get to the free throw line where he's an 85% shooter.

That's why just like, I don't know, just overall, man, and making an offense sing, Jha is just a better lubricant right now. And I feel like he's going to be throughout the course of his career. And that's why I give him the edge. Here's this question. If they switch places right now, are the wolves better? No.

I think they might be. I think they might be. I don't think so. I think what Jaws deficits are are even more of a problem when you're playing him with that much size. Like a lot of the reason why Memphis can get away with what they get away with, which we should say includes playing well when John Morant isn't out there. When he's missed games, they have won. When he sits, they mostly acclimate themselves pretty well. Like they're an incredibly deep team.

But I think his shooting deficits become a real problem when you're operating with that kind of size and that kind of clutter. He was forged in the fires of, you know, Stephen Adams and Dylan Brooks lineups. Like, these were not amazing shooting lineups. And he learned how to operate in those tight-ass spaces and got people great shots at the basket and himself great shots at the basket. So, like, I'm not too sure that I think they would be better. I think Jah has, he's operated with horrible spacing in the past, right? And so I do think that. But again, it's not like, you know, they would be the Celtics now because they had John Moran.

I don't believe that. You know, but I do think they would be, you know, that the offense would be smoother for sure. I do think there is something to, you know, we're talking about two of the most, like, purely athletic players in the league in terms of their physical gifts. And Jah, I don't know if it's because of mentality or because. because of body type, but he finds ways to kind of squeeze in between defenders and into crevices and cracks in the defense that Ant doesn't.

And again, maybe it is just because they are physically built differently, if you'll pardon the expression, but overall, like, you do get that vibe with Ant sometimes where when he sees the runway, he will detonate. But he doesn't always visualize

the kind of winding route that the runway might take. Like the sort of play we saw the other night where Jah yammed the reverse dunk on the Celtics. That is not the kind of play that Anthony Edwards makes and not because he can't make it, but because he just for whatever reason, is not quite seeing the game in quite that sort of improvisational way in those moments.

And this is a reason why Jaws such an electric teammate and a guy that people rally behind and around because he might have the five best plays in the NBA this season in terms of like pure highlight factor. Artistry. There is an absolute artistry to it. And he's a guy that guys do want to, play with and do rally behind.

And meanwhile in Minnesota, and is going in the locker room every fifth game talking about like what the fuck is up with our team. So like you can draw your own conclusions from those things, but that's the reality of the season. I'm not going to dig Ed for not being able to get some of those cats to rally.

Sure. Might not be ralliers, guys. Let's keep it a thousand. No, but I think you're right though. I think there's an innate creativity to what Jod does that I think it's easier to believe in because you think that he can get you out of any sort of situation. Like I would believe that he can get out of like a bunch of locks like he's Houdini if he was just like in a tank, right? He's like upside down. Yeah, I think that's Jaws expertise.

If anything, whereas Edwards is hitting his head because he's not problem solving. Ultimately is what we're saying. Like, yeah, it is the playmaking, but it doesn't feel like he's reading things in a natural way. If anything, he's forcing himself to do so. And again, maybe he gets to that point. He probably will get to that point, maybe even later in the season. But Jha just does that so easily. it's hard to not like it's almost like someone who could play music without reading it versus someone who has to drill themselves to learn all the notes and then be an expert at it um so maybe that's just like aesthetics at a certain point but jaws aesthetics are fucking incredible let's be honest pretty good um and just the way that he like he basically air walks he does manufacture things the

the free throws in particular but also just like angles and plays that other players cannot and i think that's like an advantage that like often gets played for the highlights like oh this is so awesome but like there's actually literally like competitive advantages yes functional advantages to doing stuff like that definitely so it's a really good question though um that i came up with so shrap last one on the docket here 20 to 21 re re re re redraft because i feel like we've gone to this question a few times over the past few years in part because it's such a really interesting draft. One through eight, I can't remember a single time in NBA history where every player is still

relevant at this point. A lot of these guys banked rookie contract extensions right before the season started. But even if you're not a Jonathan Kaminga fan, for instance, who went seventh in this draft, like he's still relevant, Josh Giddy's still relevant. One through eight, just for the listeners at home, Arcade Cunningham, Jalen Green, Evan Mowbly, Scottie Barnes, Jalen Suggs, Josh Giddy, Jonathan Kaminga, Franz Wagner. three and then you have shangoon in here you have jalen johnson it's just like a really deep if not like supremely like wambayama style like number one there's none of that uh but a lot of guys

a lot of guys in this draft so uh curious where you guys met out if we were to come out with like a one through three for instance to redraft this like who's going one for you right now franz mf wagner really number one for me right now wow yeah it's it's it's Is Franz, reluctantly for me, Franz is probably... Why reluctantly? What's holding you back? America, that's all. You have him won.

Wow. Yeah, I think so, man. In terms of, like, who do we think has been the best player this season from this class? Probably Franz Wagner. I don't think it's like a runaway or anything. crazy like that, but I think it's probably him. And then, you know, you're getting into the Mowgli, Shangoon, Cade Cunningham. Some people would say Scotty Barnes.

I personally wouldn't, but territory. And then I'm like, you know, in terms of future success. That's part of it. You know, Jalen Johnson, while not being quite as productive if some of these guys, I think his ceiling is just crazy, man. So you think there's a chance he could be the best player in this draft class, or no? I think there's a chance that he could be one. Yeah, the most, no, not the best player, probably,

but probably the most useful big man. No disrespect to Evan Mobley. But, you know, like when I watched, like, some of the stuff that Jalen Johnson is doing on the perimeter, in terms of, like, his passing and finding guys. And he's like, like, he will pass a dude. into a cut, like shit like that. I'm like, man, this guy has some advanced tools.

Like, he's a very toolsy player, if not yet, just a night-to-night killer. The way Franz, like, every night is just like when he doesn't score 25, you're surprised by it. Yeah. And he's guarding the hell out of people. But, yeah, I think it would just depend on your preference. You know what I mean? But, yeah, I would probably go Franz number one. Who's your number one, barrier?

I had Franz 3. And if anything, it's more of a 3A, 3B or a situation. I'm trying not to be prisoner in the moment. I'm also worried about his weak obliques, apparently. Just can't withstand the course of an NBA. That's a greater Orlando problem. I don't know what's going on. Apparently. Franz has been awesome, and I feel bad saying that.

But I have Scotty Barnes one because I think, I'm trying not to be prisoner in the moment. I think Barnes overall has the best package. And if anything, like, if I were to both start my franchise or even glom on, like, to another star. I think Barnes is actually the most versatile. Like the shooting has been atrocious this year, but the defense playmaking combination at that size plus like some of the shooting success in the past, like I actually think he has the best overall game than any of these guys.

Because honestly, they're all like, there's a lot of similarities here where it's a lot of tools he'd use was's word, but big players who are typically front court players. It's a lot of like more modern fours who could do. everything as opposed to just stretching or being a playmaker. I think Barnes like threads the needle on all of those different words in the word cloud better than anybody else in this class. Barnes is really good. I think for me it's Franz Mobley Barnes is the order that I would do.

With Barnes so talented, so versatile, also kind of an odd game that I think the Raptors are still trying to figure out like what is the best use for this guy. How do we best deploy everything that he brings to the table? Those are problems all gladly take, given the level of talent involved. I don't begrudge you at all for putting Scotty number one on this. I do want to say this. Like the version of the magic that has been on the floor for the vast majority of this season, without Paolo, with Franz as the number one guy,

is that team wildly more talented than what the Toronto Raptors trot out on a nightly basis? Like, there's a lot of good players, some very good defenders. And if you want to talk about clearly a discrepancy, in terms of like defensive competition. I get it. But like overall talent, the Raptors are, have a pretty talented base of a team.

They're not very deep. They have a lot of good young players. The magic are good young players too. They're just good young players who defend well over their head for where they are. Franz included. And I think that's one area where Scotty is still trying to figure out how to be the impact defender. He has all of the tools to be.

He's way less consistent on defense than Franz Wagner is. Completely. Straight up. I think that's the case with Franz is that one, we've seen him over the course of this year. make the jump as a primary guy because of his circumstances. Like these are the guys, these are the players who have had more 30 point games this season than Franz.

Janus Tatum, AD, Lamello, Shea, Yokic, Luca. That's it. Wow. Those are the only guys who have had more 30 point games than Franz for a team that's right now third place in the Eastern Conference. He is that consistent on offense. He is in every play participant and force on defense at basically 610. And so if that's where we're starting and we're forecasting,

the rest of these guys' careers, I'm going to take that floor over basically anybody else, because I do think he can still get better. I do think he's going to continue to grow as all of these guys are. And yet, I think the overall potential of someone like Scotty Barnes or the overall potential of someone like Evan Mobley or Kate Cunningham is pretty significant. And we have to acknowledge and you want to doff your cap to it. And if you're investing in those guys' futures, all power to you. I think they're going to be really good players. But I just, I'm super impressed by where Franz is right now. Yeah. And Cade, somebody that I've thought about um he's obviously improved this year um the circumstance like the lineups make

way more sense in detroit there's nobody's idea of a world beater but like they're less of a basket case than they used to be um his efficiency is like creeping up to like being borderline good um he's got a turnover though like he's still a little floppier than i would like the turnover is But his shooting efficiency is what I meant. Is definitely creeping up there. And again, the type of guy who's like, he's building himself into a player that you could just put the ball in his hands and have competent offense flow through it. And so, you know, like, I personally like that more than, you know, the potential that Scotty Barnes could, like, actualize his insane talent. gifts and become a constant defensive disruptor and, you know, the playmaker on offense,

beat up on little guys when they switch little guys on him, just shoot it like, you know, get me to 34 and a half percent from three. You know, I like Cade just knowing that I could just give him the rock, honestly. Cade's in Winklevoss territory for me. Like if he was a superstar, he would have shown to be a superstar by now. I hope you're ashamed of yourself. Wow. Wow.

These guys are big into crypto. That's some respect. I just like at this point, I recognize that the pistons have kind of failed him to even surround him with even credible shooters. But I still have yet to see evidence that he is the superstar of a high winning team. And if that's not the case, I think he's tougher to fit around other players because I think you need to fit players around him. And like this class is just supremely versatile, just to echo what we just said. Whereas like Franz has had now 20 plus games of looking like a all-MBA player, Cade just had never had that stretch at this point.

He's playing better, but he's not played so good that we have to stop what we're doing and address Cade Cunningham on this podcast, for instance. He also is one of the thing working against him that none of these other players do, which is he is a big time injury risk. Like, has missed a lot of games already in his career. And granted, we've seen incredibly promising young players and stars rebound from that. a couple of injured first seasons and then all of a sudden

they just have a banner record of health for the next eight years so it definitely could happen for him. I just worry. I worry about the availability. I worry about what his best role ultimately is. Is he a star in that kind of primary playmaking capacity? Is he better off as your second guy?

I don't know. And ultimately, like, this could be a draft that goes down as a bunch of really good second and third options on teams because of that versatility we've been talking about. And that's okay. I don't mean that as a demerit. I just mean overall,

it's a lot of guys who can fill a variety of roles who can augment and compliment other stars really, really well and there aren't a lot of go-to shot creators in that star mold and frankly, the guys who were expected to be that, I think Jalen Green, case in point, have been among the most up and down players of this entire draft class. And I say that he's coming off of an incredible game

against the clippers over the weekend. And he will have incredible games. He will also have ones in which... Dude, he's had a terrible stretch before that game. It's not even that he's silent in the other games. It's that you kind of wish he were more silent in terms of his contributions. Was, who did you have two to three after Franz? Yeah, Evan Mobley.

And yeah, Jalen Johnson is three for me, boy. Wow, let's go. So we all had Mobley, but we had different ones and threes. Yes. Yeah. Mowgli, who had 41 points and 10 boards the other night in probably his best performance, not probably literally his best offensive performance of his career and then followed it up. Who was it against? Yeah.

Well, that'll happen. I'd say that as one of the world's foremost Evan Moby's supporters. I think he's number two on this list of the bullet. He's already doing something at an elite level, which he is an elite level. His defense is next level, dude. All NBA caliber defender, if not defensive player,

the year ballot caliber defender. Dude, and speaking of which, in that series against Orlando last year, as soon as he got on to either Palo or Franz, it was like, get off the ball. Let the other dude do to work. Because Mowgli is just, he was destroying these kids

in terms of guarding them. Last year, in the playoffs, the biggest possessions of the game. And he's rim protecting. Like, yeah, his defense is just, it's next level. Is he going to make the All-Star team this year? Definitely.

It's the Eastern Conference. We need to at least doff the cap to Alper and Shangun, right? Yeah. In this conversation. Yeah. I think there's a... He's doing one. Not at all?

Just the budget, the diet Yokic stuff is just, there's limitations to me how good this could be. It's incredibly disrespectful for one of the best players on one of the best teams in the league. Listen, fringe all starts... He's the Kroger brand Yokage is what you're saying. Well, If you're the Kroger brand version of who was as might be one of the best players of all time and I'm inclined to agree, that's pretty good.

I'll take the Kroger brand of that. Pretty good. Yes, got to doff the cat for him. Jonathan Kaminga showing life this weekend. Welcome back to the NBA, Jonathan Kaminga. It's nice to see you storming the rim and playing defense. Imagine what happens when, or just look at what happens

when you show effort on both ends. I know for you. Trey man. Is he in this class? Santi Aldama? Let's go. There's so many of our guys in this class. Gail and Suggs, obviously.

I've been a Quentin Grounds apologists for for years now. Camp Thomas. Josh Giddy? Doesn't close games at all? That is a guy. Well, I think we know the deal.

It's a tough one. Are they going to resign him? Just has already sold the Giddy. He came in so hot this season. He's like, yeah, that's not a thing. I'm holding on, but I'm going down with the ship, I think. I'm going to zero for reasons I can't really explain to myself. I have noticed that there's a type of player, Ben Simmons, Josh Giddy,

where it's just like these guys that don't really score, but they're like good ball movers who play defense. That's what you're referring to. I do love an Aussie. Let me tell you. Something in the water down there. Great white sharks mostly On that's true

All right On that note We'll wrap it there Thank you to Isaiah Blakely On production Thank you to Ben Cruz We'll be back on Thursday For a totally cool podcast

We'll talk to you then Must be 21 plus and present In Select States for Kansas In affiliation with Kansas Star Casino Or 18 plus in present in D.C. Cambling problem call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-G-Help.com. Call 1-88-78-98-98-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org

slash chat in Connecticut or visit MDGamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline, ma.org or 800-327-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 18778 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.