The Ringer NBA Show - Six Big Questions as the NBA Season Enters 2025 | Group Chat

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos turn the page and welcome the new year with six questions to monitor at the start of 2025. They discuss contenders in the east (7:03) and west (29:15). They talk about which L.A. team can go farther in the playoffs (38:37), a refresh to their League Pass rankings (50:35), if a star will get moved at the trade deadline (59:48), and MVP favorites (1:12:34). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get your. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media. That's at Ringer NBA and check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of podcasting

right on the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. Oh, and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me back again, big waz, but fresh off of committing to the University of Arizona, it's Rob Maximus Mahoney. Congrats on your decision, young lad. I literally, I've literally, no idea what you're talking about. So can you please catch me up as I'm coming out of basically a coma? Can you tell me what I've missed? LeBron's kid committed to the U of A, man. He's an Arizona Wildcat. Yeah. And it's so crazy yesterday Instagram algorithm serves me a mixtape of Mustafa Shakur. Hell yeah.

That's crazy. I haven't thought about this guy in a decade plus. And Instagram, knowing how watched I am, and I watched the whole thing. It was like two minutes and 30 seconds. I watched the entire thing. It's fantastic. That team, those cat seams were definitely formative for any millennial person. Like, if you look at your personality, there's like definitely parts of like the backy shorts, the RJ Jefferson kind of swagger. Like, yeah, those teams ruled.

Always had super dope sneakers too. And congrats, Rob. Thank you. Yeah. I am willing to accept all NIL money that anyone. wants to throw our way. So get at us. What conferences Arizona in?

Are they in the Big 12? Big 12. Okay, Big 12. I mean, they're in the short flight from L.A. conference, which I think is probably what's material here. That's a big one. Happy New Year to my friends, both at home and on this podcast, 2025. Any like goals we're setting, gentlemen, any like New Year's resolutions?

Was, are you a New Year's Resolutions guy? I'm generally not. but I am this year, and I'm going to put it out there. I'm trying to lose 20 pounds, y'all. I'm going to keep myself accountable. You know, it comes down to, like, I'm just in front of the camera too much. You know what I mean?

And I'd like to see a jawline one day again. And so I'm putting it out there. Hold wise accountable. Keep my damn exercise and watching what I eat in check. That's what we're doing, 2025, to start the year. We'll see how it goes. It's a noble goal. I have to say, when I come to town, Waz,

I don't know that I will be holding you accountable. Every time I come to visit, we're going out to eat. Well, that'll be a cheat day. We're still going to have cheat days now. We're not going to be like complete Tom Brady sickles every single day. But yeah, we're trying to move in a different direction. I dig it. I set this goal like every year and I get maybe a 20th of the way into it.

So we'll see. But you're right, though. Being on camera, it does fuck with you. Even though we're on, like, YouTube and like 20 people watch it, like, every time my mom mentions that she watches these ridiculous broadcasts, I'm like, God damn, should I get in better shape? Sorry, Mom. I'm doing my best. Y'all are some vain motherfuckers out here. 100%.

Justin moves out of L.A., but you can't take the L.A. out of Justin Barrier, truly. I've been in L.A. 7 and a half years damn there now. Come on now. I had to rub off somehow. You know, I certainly could stand to lose a couple LBs myself, but for me, better sleep in 2025, is what we're after. Sleep habits, sleep hygiene, protecting my sleeping hours in order to, I think, have better waking ones. You know, we're trying to go onward and upward in every way in 2025, guys. I think, you know, as a podcast, what, live from Madison Square Garden for group chat in 2025? Is that a thing we can do? It's a goal. If Rosillo could do Oxford, Mississippi, we can

Definitely do Madison Square Garden. Come on now. I love it. Yeah, I think I'm setting my goals a little higher this year. I think it's time for me to date a celebrity. Wow. You've had this on the board for a while. Yes, he really has. We've discussed it before. Now I want to make it a goal and I'm going to achieve it. You know? So I want you guys to hold me accountable, perhaps even getting your celebrity friends or friends of a friend to, you know, slide into my DMs, perhaps, we'll see. Okay. What's the celebrity scene up in Portland like?

Like, who do you have your eye on? What kind of scene are you kind of circling? That's one of the tough ones. So far, the only celebrity I've seen outside of like maybe an NBA player is, you know the guy from the wire who is the Greek in the second season? Yes. Sure. Yeah.

I think I saw him dropping his dog off at daycare. I've seen him in seven. Santa Monica before. Really? Yeah. One of my first LA celebrities, well, celebrity, if we're calling it, that sightings was that dude on like Santa Monica and sixth. It was like kind of surreal.

And the person that I was with had never watched The Wire and couldn't understand why I was freaking out. But whatever, it is what it is. Yeah. So maybe he could like hook me up with Snoop. And then it's just like, I'm at an event with Snoop. It's like, Snoop is here with friend. And you're like, that's, that's JV.

This is quite a chain of events that you've concocted, but I think it's a noble goal trying to be a celebrity plus one to a premiere or something. That's where you want to be ultimately. I think my brand is ready for it, you know? I think it fits with what I'm going for here. I completely agree. All right. So, in honor of the new year, we have, as we typically do around these times, and just like every couple weeks or so, we have a survey of this time six questions to assess kind of where the NBA is as we turn the page to 2025. These are six big questions. These aren't just like small questions. They aren't medium size. There's no sh medium. These are big. These are big old honking questions, Rob. I feel overwhelmed. This is, this is a lot that you have put on us today. But what are we to do here on group chat,

if not to wrestle with the biggest questions? If not to wrestle with really the questions of our NBA I think that's what we're trying to unveil and trying to dig into here. That's right. And so we're going to start with the Eastern Conference, the top of which is becoming more and more compelling by the week, frankly. So here's the question I have down here. Assuming Boston is still the favorite. And now, if that is not the case, please hold your hand up and just try to engage with that as well. Who are teams two to four and in what order?

And so just straight out the gate here, I don't want to disrespect what the cabs have done. Clearly the best team in the NBA by record. They have four losses as we turn the page on the calendar, which is kind of crazy. But I think we would probably all agree if we're talking title race or if we're talking playoffs, Celtics probably number one. And then this kind of comes down to two questions, Rob. It's kind of how do you organize probably Cavs and Knicks? And then who is the fourth team?

So with that first question, are you Cavs or are you Knicks? I'm Cavs. And I think we might just have to do a full-fledged Cavs podcast at some point, because as you said, they are playing incredible basketball. They're on a 72-win pace. They're challenging for the best offensive rating of all time with last year Celtics. They're doing everything that they're supposed to do to prove themselves in the regular season down to having a completely rock-solid rotation right now. So I have a really hard time not putting the Cavs, number two, given the kind of year that they put together so far. Yeah, just the empirical data is there, not just win-loss, but like point differential.

It's not that they beat teams, they kick teams asses. Completely. Like, they're smoking people. And to me, like, the Knicks, as good as they've been, they're just not as well-rounded. They're not as balanced a team as the Cavs are in terms of what they bring to the four on defense and while having the league's best offense. And so, you know, I think the Cavs are definitely that number two spot. they've earned it.

In terms of the Celtics, you know, I just went on a mismatch with Jacoby and he asked, like, are we not giving, you know, should we start, not, are we not giving the Cavs enough respect? Should we start worrying about the Celtics because they're like five and five in their last 10? I'm just like, look, man,

I've been doing this long enough to know that when you've played in so many important games, not just individually, but as a group, as a collective, they've played in so many big games. games, December basketball just doesn't titillate. I'm sorry. Like, I understand why they're not like, you know, balls to the wall, gung-ho trying to kill themselves, trying to beat everybody

right now. I just think when they play the best teams and they're taking it seriously, they have a gear. They've shown that they have a gear, particularly on defense, that they could just lock people up in a way that I don't think many teams can command on that end of the floor. And so just to get the Boston thing out the way. I think Boston is still the team to beat. But yeah, the Cavs have proven that they are, you know, they're knocking on that door. Yeah, I mean, the Warriors signed to Marcus Cousins at one point

in order to get them through the malaise of the season. And now it ultimately, like, probably didn't help them down the road because they needed one more wing player in that season. But that's the type of thing that happens with title contending teams, teams that have won it, have proven things. They're just waiting to get to the big stage. So I agree with you. But I think the Knicks are more in the mix.

here. The Cavs have been the better regular season team. I'm looking more ahead to the playoffs. And I think one of the big things the Knicks have in their cap right now, which they've won nine in a row as we're recording this show. The starting unit looks electric has been just probably one of the best starting units I've seen in a very long time. Kat has been playing on another level. And I do wonder, if you get into playoff basketball, you're not as worried about the bench. Tibbs just, you know, just look at his shop, just waiting to play these guys more minutes. Does that become more of a factor? that point. Got a nice little stat here for you. Nick's starters right now have played 561 minutes together. Last season, there were nine lineups that bested that mark. We are what, 30 games, 30 plus games into the season, and they

are right now this season, 145 minutes ahead of the next most used lineup in the NBA. That's literally three games worth that this starting has played together. And so not only good, they also are building the muscle memory in order to be on a big

stage pretty quickly. But is that a good thing? I mean, if you look at last year's playoffs, maybe not, because Tips did wear these guys down to the point where the injury started to mount and they could barely feel the lineup in that second round series against the Pacers toward the end there. But I believe in what they have, and if

they keep using that more and more, obviously that's going to pay dividends. And I think the defense overall is starting to show some things. It's coming together and they're becoming the sort of team. We thought they could be when they treated for CAD in the first place. It's like they're finding the balance of what their roster can be. No one really looks twice at a team beating the jazz, for example.

But like the Knicks beating the jazz without Jalen Brunson and Deuce McBride is actually a thing that kind of pops up on my radar a little bit that makes my ears perk up because they are so shallow. And so, yes, I agree with you. Top End, they have one of the best lineups in basketball. No one is doubting their starters, especially with McHale Bridges kind of finally finding his groove in the season. Yeah. But that they're able to kind of make some things. happen in suboptimal circumstances, that's what I'm watching is when those five guys aren't on the floor together, what are they capable of? What can they do? Because the calves are winning

with damn near everybody. Guys in and out of the lineup, does it really matter against superstar opponents? They're running them off the floor. They have such a defined style of play and identity and such a smoothness. It's incredibly ethical basketball. And just like a clarity of purpose that I think the Knicks are finding for sure. But I just think the calves are on a different level with kind of stuff. And the way that their pace and their flow and their execution can impact a game is just one of the most potent things happening in the NBA right now. Yeah, the Cavs are running beautiful offense. The Knicks are out-talenting people with their offense. It starts with what they're doing with Carl Towns in the pick and roll. It's just hard to guard. Like straight up,

If you don't just do an automatic switch, of which, like, I guess you don't want to switch a big onto Brunson at this point. And even last night, like, you don't want to switch it big onto Josh Hart. It was like they are just finding so much found money. And then, you know, OG and Bridges are just picking their spots. Like, there's just points where OG just sees a guy who's not as big as him. And he's just beating him up. just bullying his way to the basket.

His three-point shot is, like, reliable. He shoots him with confidence. What I've noticed now with the Knicks is, like, guys are sticking to OG at the three-point line. Yeah. It's not even like, oh, we have to give a contest. Like, we can't let him get a three-pointer off, which is a completely new development in terms of his career.

I think, like, towards the end of the Toronto thing, the jump shot was better than I had realized. By the time he gets to New York, like, it's a bona fide weapon. but this year I'm noticing that he's a genuine spacer. Like he's not just a guy that makes three that a decent clip. Teams are scared of him getting it off. And then McHale Bridges in the mid-range,

you know, I guess we were scared about what he was doing from three not realizing he was going to become some kind of freaking 90s, mid-range, 80s, Bernard King Assassin. It's kind of crazy. But I do want to give the credit to Carl Towns, man. Yeah. What he's doing, his stretchiness at the,

at the five, and teams just being deathly afraid of leaving him on picking rolls has just opened up so much for these guys. And finally, you know, the defense is getting to where it needs to be. But I do just want to give a hat tip to Josh Hart, who, you know, I guess he's like five straight triple doubles. He's got like nine or something this year. Has had none his whole career. He's got 10. It's just kind of crazy. and his just sort of Swiss Army knife nature

in the Knicks offense and defense. It's just beautiful to watch, man. Well, especially when you're talking about all those factors combined, was where Towns is pulling people so hard in the pick and pop. They are sticking to OG, and I think increasingly to Mikhail in the corners too and on the wings too, the guy that's going to be open is going to be Josh Hart,

and he's either going to let it rip from three and hit like we've seen him doing the playoffs before, which is always kind of an up and down endeavor. But when he puts the ball on the floor, Or that's when he's wheeling and dealing. That's when he's making things happen. He's such a good cutter already if he's moving before he gets the ball or attacking the offensive glass.

Guys like that in this sort of lineup are just invaluable. You have everyone you have to pay attention to, and that means you're not paying attention to Josh Hart. And that's how you lose. He's playing point guard and power forward on defense. What is he, LeBron James? And that's where I worry about the matchup specifically in the playoffs, because what are we doing?

Alan is probably going to guard heart to start with because you want mobily on cat in order to follow him around the perimeter. But as we've seen time and time again, that might not work. And then so what do you do from there? What's your your next kind of counter move? I do wonder if like that's ultimately how this will play out because as you guys have mentioned, cat has just been absolutely electric. Like this is the best cat we've ever seen. And I look back to like the Rudy Gober trade. And I've just been thinking about that. And like I almost feel like that trade bringing him into Minnesota was the best trade for. Minnesota, but not necessarily for Kat, whereas the Knicks are clearly Jalen Brunson's team. That's his operation, who will always be on the marquee. But this feels like the best cat team, team suited to his preference that you can come up with because he just feels mobile and special in a way that he did earlier to the season when everything was oriented around him. And so I almost wonder if that's the Trump card in this sort of series.

But one thing we should mention is that we're getting to the trade deadline. Both of these teams have moves in them. The Knicks don't have assets. but they will presumably get Mitchell Robinson back soon. The Cavs, the fact that they, I believe they have a faraway pick at this point plus swaps. I do wonder if they're in the position in order to go and make something happen. And on our previous podcast, Kirk Goldberry brought up Cam Johnson as an option. If they do get more of like a lock solid 3&D guy, even as good as a Coral has been,

even as Struse has been working his way into the mix. I wonder if that ultimately helps down the road too. But if we're talking about the teams right now on paper, kind of like the Knicks and a playoff series, but I respect the ethical basketball and what it's done this regular season because they've been a buzzsaw. Also, please respect Dean Wade. Let's get an obligatory mention for our guy who literally never

loses, at least little calves never lose when he plays. True D. Wade just never losing. We're dying with the Dean Wade's ship on this podcast. I'm just saying look, the facts are the facts. One thing I will say is we talk about like consistency and like how good the Knicks starting five is there is a certain muscle

memory and just like learned advantage that the Cavs show. Like I was watching the game against the Lakers the other day and there's just his play. They're in crunch time and Garland like tries to get a step back three. Can't get it because he's guarded. Alan's right there at the fall line extended. He passed it to him. Then he like darts ahead, gets the pass.

And then ultimately the defense collapses. He passes back to him. There's just like a certain advantage to consistency that we tend to overlook probably because it's corny and like it's hard to quantify, frankly. But like this team in addition to playing the right style, I think is. has the right guys to play it because it just seems like they're comfortable playing off with each other in a way that frankly like last year's next year's next team looked like there's just like there's something about like learned behavior that I think like helps the flow and

what the next the calves have more than anyone is flow yeah I think you're seeing some of that in terms of the continuity as you mentioned just the experience of these guys being together now for as long as they have been but also individual growth I think in particular Evan Mowley's decision making with the basketball I think Donovan Mitchell making not the highest possible level reads a superstar can make, but maybe a half step or a step higher than he was even last season. Some of it is just getting off the ball too, right? Like, letting other people do stuff.

That's a nice read. Completely. But a lot of that is the trust in the system to do that and to facilitate that. And when you do establish that flow, you're going to get the ball off a little easier. You're going to be more confident in the next guy making the next play. And they do have such a good rhythm with that right now. That's the kind of thing that, like, as we're talking about the Celtics as a counterpoint,

the Celtics don't need to prove anything, least of all to themselves. And I think the Cavs aren't just trying to convince people like us and trying to convince the NBA at large. They're trying to prove to themselves, this is a thing that can work for us. We are a serious team. We know how to play with each other. We know how to set each other up in a way that's going to be sustainable in a playoff setting. They're doing that at a really high level right now. And in ways that I think, I think go above and beyond the sort of great regular season

showings we've seen from Cleveland teams pass. This feels like a substantively different sort of threshold that they've crossed. Well, that's a good way to contextualize the debate at number four then. Like, who is the most serious of the teams that come after these three teams? Waz, if you're looking at the board, who do you like is like number four? We're at the end of the season. This is a team that's going to have home court advantage. It's easy for me.

It's the Bucks. I do not rate the Sixers. It's easy. Yeah, it's easy for me. It's the box. They're the ones that have Yonauts. They're the ones that have dame. Do you guys want to apologize to Chris Middleton now or later?

When do you want to do that? We can do that now. Yeah, look, he's been, he's been much better. It's nice that he's getting his seed legs under him. He has been much better. Sorry, Chris Middleton to you and your family. I'm sorry. Chris, please.

Please, Chris. I just, I mean, I don't know how you rate any of these other teams. in terms of a playoff, atmosphere, and setting, like the, even the indie, who we were super high on coming into this season,

like, they've shown that, like, Nemhard is, like, a key cock. Like, they don't play as well without Nemhard. Like, that's just strange to me that, like,

their toughness is derived from some of these guys who we see as ancillary figures or I thought were coming into the season. And so I just think the bucks are much better than those guys or anybody else. I don't know who you guys would throw into the fourth that's like, deserves some

crazy consideration here. So I would pick the bucks as well and we can get into the why of that. They are a very hard team to fully believe in or bank on, I think mostly just because of their health. Guys is just in and out of that damn lineup. They're always in and out.

And they've shown that when Yannis in particular doesn't play, they can lose to basically anybody. So that's not great and not what you want. But to me, the most compelling alternative is the team you didn't mention was, and that's the Orlando Magic. The magic are really good. I have two kind of points of hesitation with them right now.

I think on the more granular level, obviously, offensively, they're not always the most stunning team to watch or to play or even just like compete against. On the one hand, when they get Palo and Franz back, they're going to be significantly better on that end of the floor. I still want to see all of that healthy and incorporated. Franz took some huge steps forward. Paolo is a player who's constantly growing.

This is a team that's figuring a lot out about itself and about how everything kind of comes together and fits together. So I want to see that a little bit in a way that I think we've already started to see with Milwaukee. They're starting to incorporate better and play off each other better. Their defense is starting to come together. The other thing that I think gives me some pause, maybe more so than I even thought at the time that it happened,

losing Mo Wagner for the season, I think is a pretty huge deal for Orlando. That's the one guy on their bench who can really score. And so it's not a matter of, oh, they don't have enough bigs because they do. This is a team that has a lot of good size. They just don't have a lot of scores in supply who are going to step into that role

and give them a reliable like 13 to 15 points in a game that matters. And that really worries me in this kind of conversation. And I do want to be more charitable to the magic. I think what they've put on the floor, given the circumstances of their two best players, two all-star level players this year, missing significant time, each of them, to be able to put themselves in the fourth seed right now at present moment.

Like, what they put on the floor warrants more of respect. I'm not saying that. It's just for me, when you're two best guys are under 23 years old, it's hard for me to be like, oh, these guys are going to be playoff killers. It's ageism. It's hard for me. Yes, it is ageism in the opposite. direction for sure. Yeah, I think if we had this conversation two weeks from now and Paula was back

on the court, I don't think this would be even a question. And based on reports, he's, he's backed out there in practice doing light works. And so we'll see. But the fact that they've gone close to 500, they're four and six since Franz has gone down is a minor miracle considering when you look out on the court. And it's like the Goga Bataze show like more times than you would ever imagine. Like there's a certain- I can imagine quite a bit. Goga's kind of killing people right now. really good. He's been good. He did get taken to it by by Duren yesterday. But there is just like a context and the defensive just like this seeps into the pores of everything they're doing and they've been able to get by without them. And so I think if you just add one of those guys to the mix,

this team could be very clearly the number four seed. I think if we're talking playoffs, yes, then they need those both of those guys. And yes, they need the time in order to sort things out. But I don't know. Over the course of Franz's run there, I got this like, like feeling that they're more natural like compliments than I think you'd expect because they have at times butted against each other because they're both like the same type but but nurtured differently where I think Paulo is at his best when he's passed first and has Franz to play as as a scorer first. And so like there's like a synergy there that I think will met out if they just get like a clean month at the end of the season in order to do so because then everything else fits into place.

I know Vag the other Wagner losing him does hurt. but they have like four other centers because that's the way their roster worked where they have guys to step up. And so I think there's something happening there. I would be surprised if they didn't end up with the four seed and frankly end up in the East semifinals as a result. I think it's very, yeah, it's very possible. Tatum and Brown part two, y'all.

That's what Justin is smelling over there. I think there's skill sets in terms of what they do well and the kind of gaps that they fill in each other's games might actually be more complimentary than Tatum and Brown. Like Tatum and Brown are pretty similar players in the grand scheme of things. Obviously, you can point out distinct differences between them. Like Tatum's handle is a little bit more confident. Brown can be a little more physical inside when he wants to be or a little bit more of a pressure defender when he wants to be. You can draw these fine lines.

But I think Powell having a little bit more of a bruiser's game and Franz, I think evolving this season as a playmaker, separates them a little bit in some interesting ways. They operate from slightly different places on the floor. They just naturally gear themselves to different kinds of creation in a way that I think is really, really healthy. I just want to see it. I want to see the version of Franz that was playing and punking teams and putting up 30s and really looking like a... Paolo was killing too. I mean, Paolo was looking like a clear, I don't even, like an all-N-B-A candidate really before he got hurt.

And so like all-N-B-A candidate, Paulo, improving by leaps and bounds, Franz. How do those guys coexist and how are they going to come? kind of find their balance to each other because I think one big part of Franz being so much better this season was him taking the reins, was him learning to kind of stretch his game and apply himself in ways he never really had before. And I think you don't worry about egos with those two. You don't really worry. We're about ego with the magic overall. Like, while you were talking about the limitations of leaning on young players, the killer for the magic is not Palo or Franz. It's that fucking defense. Like, they strangle you as a collective. And they

strangle you because they do have such a clear idea of who they are and how they want to play. And that's going to be true throughout the season, no matter who's out there. God bless Jalen Suggs, the patron saying of all that shit. He's unbelievable to watch right now. He is a maniac out there in all of the best ways. Like it's functional insanity out there, man. The way this guy has no regard for his body seems to never get tired. Just like takes every single matchup seriously. And then when these guys is out, he's like, fuck it, I'll be Alan Avison. If that's what

you need me to do and be, I have no problem doing that. Like, he is, he's been a revelation this year. I know we've been high on him pretty much since from the start and like he couldn't, you know, hit the ocean, basically, or as my JV coach would say, he couldn't hit the ocean

from the Titanic to start his career. But he has, his shot accuracy has so dramatically improved. And then you add that with all the intangibles. He's the intangible king as far as I'm concerned in the NBA. And I was talking to a buddy of mine who works in the league.

And he was just like, man, if we had a league full of Jalen Suggs, my God, would this thing be off the charts? I just love this guy. Yeah. Watching the magic sometimes could feel like watching a four-hour silent movie. But if you like movies, it's great. You know? That's cinema.

You got to be a sicko. Yeah, exactly. Cinema. We need letterboxed for for magic. Yeah. Defensive minded basketball. That's us. Let's get that VC money going.

All right. Number two, let's flip to the Western Conference. Now, similar deal where it seems like one team separating itself from the pack, the Thunder have won 12 games in a row. Pretty good.

We do not count the loss in the NBA Cup. Let's just, 12 games in a row. It's on paper. I'm looking at it right now. W12. So it seems like they're separate. Something seems to be happening like two years ago where it seemed like the

nuggets were far and away, the better team in the West, despite the West being overall pretty compelling. This is a little bit different because Tier B seems pretty good in its own right, but there's just clear separation between it. So my question to you guys and was, maybe you can start us off here, like if it's not the Thunder,

if they don't make the West Finals, but it's this other team. Who's the team that you believe in the most outside of OKC? I'm consistent. I'm still Dallas. Now, this Luca stuff is concerning. And I do think the problem for Luca is that he's not a conditioning monster. He does come into the season, you know, sort of like,

oh, going to play through this, going to blah, blah, blah, going to work myself into shape. And those nagging injuries, like when you're just like, oh, I'm just going to play through this nagging thing. That then becomes a more grave injury like we've seen, you know, from this past week. Like he's missing, he's going to miss like five weeks with a calf issue. Yeah. That's concerning because even in the playoffs last year where he was largely just freaking great and insane,

he didn't have his full legs under him. And I'm starting to get worried now about this. Luca thing and the conditioning thing and will he be there in May and if he's good enough June you know for the conditioning but when the Mavs have everybody

to me they're clearly right there with OKC in the West but now like I'm questioning Luca's availability issues man like I'm really starting to be worried about this thing it's tough because you're right obviously

that he's not the kind of play who takes conditioning as seriously as he should. It's been a chronic issue for his career. He's not a step curry, LeBron, James, Kevin Durant. He's not. He's not. Tying that to like, I mean, players in great shape, he get castrains too.

And players in particular who operate in the way he does with as much stop. Exactly. So much stop and go. So much side to side. Like, honestly, like, I think that's a thing. I think that's a real consideration for someone like him. But yes, all of that usually goes better if you're better. condition. All of that usually goes better if you're taking better care of your body than

Luca Donchich is. But I'm with you. Wazza, Dallas is kind of for me, the default team in this position right now, not just because they're the defending Western Conference champions. And maybe we need to get this take on paper now because it is about to age like milk with Luca out. Like the Mavs are going to lose games. They're going to lose a lot of games. Despite, I think, Kyrie putting forth his best efforts and the rest of this team making a lot of since. Veteran sage, Kyrie Irvin,

as I predicted, I've always said Kyrie would be one of the best vets and reliable players this league has to. I've probably said that. The universe has really

opened itself up to us and all of its infinite possibilities. But Dallas has, they have the stars in Luca and Kyrie. They have the depth. They have the balance. If you look at the other

Western Conference teams outside of OKC, I don't think anyone else really has all of that except maybe Memphis and if you want to make the argument for the Grizzlies, I'm here for it, but like Houston. I certainly would. I mean, I think it's a good one

with as well as the Grizzlies have played. If anything, theirs is almost more of a case like the magic where we need to see their whole team together enough to know what it is. And they win regardless, but I just want to see the complete product. I think Houston doesn't really have the star power

that they probably needed this stage to make a huge Western Conference run. I think Denver has the star, but nothing else in terms of the depth and the balance. Minnesota might have the star, might have the balance. No. But I kind of don't think so, and they certainly don't have the depth. They don't have the balance. Their offense is, no.

It's a Dallas and Memphis conversation. I agree. I think when Dallas has had everybody ready and able to play, they looked really freaking good. Like they didn't lose a game for like about a month there and everything looked great until Luca went out. The other part of this is it seems like PJ Washington means a lot to the. team probably not to the luca extent but they are one and six without him definitely not to the lukey extent i think we can say that i think that's fair but i do think they they don't have the big shooting forward outside of pj because then it goes into the claim of minutes and then it's like

those can be dicey he does show up from time to time i think what they need at the deadline is another version of pj maybe a lesser version which is probably tougher to get like i was starting to look at other options but when he's not around you could see that like they kind of kind of lose a sense of what their identity is in the front court being that big team that can still be mobile. And so like maybe like a Kelly Olinick, I was thinking, but he's a little bit more on the softer side of the stretch for his situation. I don't know, but they need someone like that because even if you talk to Dallas people, they're like, yeah, PJ kind of unlocks us. Yeah, they could use one more guy in that position. I think some of those problems are compounded

when like if PJ is out or having a tough game and Najee Marshall is out at the same time, Like that's the kind of thing they don't really have a way to compensate for right now. They need that defense, that energy, that flexibility, that that is something that unlocks the way that they play. And it's something that I think is so central to the supporting cast and the overall ethos that has allowed them to be this good. Is having those elements locked in basically every game. That's why the Mavericks are the Mavericks. That's why they look like one of the best teams in the West. I just got an email alert from NBA.com.

my guy Nicola Yokin, she's leading the West and all-star voting. First ballot, serene. Look at that. And I put a smile on my face. Oh, the Serbians really know how to work that math. Where's PJ Washington on the ballot? I don't think he's ranking in quite yet. The Grizzly situation, though, is kind of the opposite,

where I like everything that they have, but I can't think of a single game where they've had everybody in house and everybody is clicking in a way that would portent. or would net out into a playoff series, like Jaws out again. And everybody's out for a week. Everyone's week to week. It's not day to day.

It's not game to game. This is like a new permutation that they've figured out just to fuck with people where it's like we're being more obscure than we already were, which is really just killing me right now. But guys are out. What do you want them to do? Well, you could just say like two games, not week to week. Well, they don't know.

They don't know how long they're going to be out. Week to week? that's way too long of a band. I want like three to five games. But they did beat the Sons with all the Sons big three playing without Jha Aldama, Zach Edie, Zach, uh, Jake LaRavia and Brandon Clark. It's like, it's a hostile. Guys are coming in and now.

You don't know who's showing up when. It's just, I want a consistent month where you have all your guys. Edy is starting. We're not freaking with the lineup because this guy is out or that guy's out. And I just don't know if they're going to get it because Jock. keeps getting dings what seems like every two to three weeks. Yeah, it's, it's hard to talk around them in this way because they've been so good despite those circumstances. And they deserve props for that. They 100% do. I think they're an amazing team. And the wins that they have been able to put together

with just every variety of mass unit possible is incredibly impressive. And I think positions them as a really formidable team. And if if anyone out there is screaming that this answer should be at the Grizzlies, I'm not really going to argue with you. I think, I think those are the two teams. as you kind of outline JV. Make your first NBA bet a swish with Fandul, America's number one sports book. Fandul has all your favorite bets from who will win the game

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See terms at sportsbook. Fandil.com. gambling problem call 1,800 gambler or visit RG dash help.com. All right. When we flip to the next one here, talking about two teams in the West, but these two teams are in L.A. Do you remember guys when the battle for L.A. was a thing? Like, the Clippers got Kauai.

The Lakers got A.D. It's like battle for L.A. Who's going to win? And the NBA's the biggest market. And then nobody kind of cared. The games were okay at best. because frankly nobody supports the clippers and so there really isn't much of a contrast.

There's no clash when there's only one side just overwhelming the next one, which is unfortunate. Let me tell you this. AD is still there. Kauai is about to come back. And these games are probably going to still be okay at best because these teams are just kind of okay.

Yeah. See, I don't know if I agree with that. I think both of them are squirreling in the mix at this point, which is why I asked the question. In the mix for what? Yeah, in the mix of what are they mixing? Top six seeds for sure. Okay.

I can even be convinced depending on the week. Top four. No. One of them. Yeah. No. I agree. Well, let's look at those standings right now.

It is currently Oklahoma, Memphis, Houston, Denver, Dallas, Clippers, Lakers. Houston, young team, we'll see, playing very well in the regular season. Denver. They're not top four. No. Probably not top four, even though last night's game was pretty impressive. Dallas, we just said, are going to lose a bunch. That's two.

We're right there. One's in the four seat. This isn't that hard. No. I guess. No. The Lakers. What are we?

arguing again. The Clippers have been very good this year and they're adding why. The Lakers look better. You think there's been a credible argument that either one of these teams are better than obviously not O KC, but we're talking about Dallas, Memphis, who else we got in there? Houston, Denver. I think if you're depending on what you think of Minnesota. 1,000% even as much if they struggle on no planet, would I say that the Lakers or the Clippers are better than the Denver Nuggets?

I think it's a different conversation. I'm saying they could stack enough regular season wins and be good enough as a regular season. Oh, to maybe get more wins than them? Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying like they're going to go farther in the playoffs per se, but I think both teams have more hope. In a series tomorrow, best of three. Who are you picking?

So it's who? Denver versus the Clippers. Oh, I would pick Denver. in a series, but Denver also probably needs to learn how to play some fucking D event. So yeah, there was some moments last night again. They stamped them in the third quarter, but there was some moments where

I was just like, is this an NBA basketball game? Like, it just felt like a layup line. So your point is taken. Are we sure they clamped them? I don't know that I've seen the nuggets clamp anybody all season. With all due respect, I just have not seen that. It was like a soft numbing. Yeah, it wasn't much of a clamp. It was 27

to 10 or whatever it was. So they did blow them out. Do it at what you want. Fair. But if we're sticking to this binary that I've constructed carefully for my friends here on this podcast, who don't help actually come up with the podcast format, which L.A. team goes farther this year. The Lakers, for sure. I'm still going to go with the star power. Still going to go with the firepower. That's theoretical some nights. It feels like with LeBron and A.D. and Austin Reeves.

Although, you know, Ty Lou and my man, Jeff Van Gundy, they deserve a lot of credit. They're coaching these guys up. It's crazy the degree to which these guys are playing elite defense every single night. But I think the Lakers are just, it's just a better team. You know, maybe I'm crazy for not believing in James Hardin. I think if we're going to make an argument for the Clippers, and look, I'm finding myself in alignment with you Waz today on basically all these answers. I too would pick the Lakers.

And in particular, I know Doreen, Finney Smith, and Shake Milton haven't done anything yet. But I think that trade actually swings a question like this one and makes the rotation make a little bit more sense, gives them a little more positional size, gives them some people who can actually guard a little bit. Those are meaningful things. If you're going to make the argument for the Clippers, especially as a regular season team,

if that's what we're talking about, who's going to end this season with the better record, teams that play really freaking hard can rack up wins, January to March especially, and the Clippers have already racked up wins doing exactly that. So who is to stop them from continuing to rack up those wins? Yeah, I'm like a little baffled here that there's been so much pushback because I'm not saying the Clippers or the Lakers are going to win the NBA title. But these are solid Western Conference teams.

Perfectly solid. I think we were reflexively pushing back on our interpretation of what you meant by them being in the mix. They're good. I think they're in the mix. They're good. It's just I look up, right? and in the past like two weeks, they've beaten Golden State, Memphis.

Like the names of these teams, I get it. Like, some of these teams are more diminished version of themselves. Golden State has just freaking fell off. It's like they're in the dumpster. They are not in the mix. Yeah, they're not in any kind of mix. But, like, you know, I get the alert on my phone. I'm like, they just beat Golden State by 10.

He just beat Memphis? Like, it just beat that. Like, what the, like, what is happening here? So I get it. They beat Utah. by 37 points. You know, so, like, the point that Vary is making is taking, I just, I just can't get there with this team that's, like, James Harden, you know, Varia has it on the sheet that he's,

he's back in the 30s usage. That can't be good for your team. James Harden at this point in his career, but he's somehow making it work. Norm Powell playing like a goddamn All-Star right now, just so incredibly efficient on offense. it's a nice story. I just don't buy it as something that's like real. Here's what the clippers have going for. One, they have the defense, which I think is travels.

And I don't think that's going to get disrupted by working Kauai back into the mix there. Two, they also have the muscle memory of having played with these two guys before. And so it's not like we're like developing something new. Like for instance, we're talking Franz and Powell. They need to like figure out a chemistry that's wholly new probably. The two guys being hearted in Kauai. in Haranin in Kauai. And so I almost feel like we don't give hard enough credit because he is an easy punching

bag. And frankly, he's provided a lot of fodder for that. But, like, he kind of stepped up into the role that the Clippers need him to. And in recent years, he's taken a step back in order to work his way into the Paul George Kauai setup, also with Embed in Philadelphia. And so, like, he has vacillated in order to fit what the team needs. And so I don't think, like, adding Kauai to the mix is ever going to be taking something away. I think they're going to be better as a result.

I don't know what they'll be as a playoff team because then that's when I start to get concerned because I don't really trust Harden as a playoff guy. As the regular season team, I think the Clippers could be very good. And frankly, I think the Lakers, just one game of sample with Dore and Finney Smith, they look way more creative offensively already than they have at any point in the season. There's like a modified elevator doors play that they ran in order to get Reeves a look. Like, I think like just having more shooting because, God forbid, they take more than like 23s a game.

the 29th and three-pointers attempted this year. Not only will help them just work the math in a way that they desperately need, but I think AD is going to be much better as a result. And so maybe I'm sipping the Kool-A because this is like new exciting stuff coming into my brain. And I'm just like, oh, I can't wait to check this out. But like, I think these are the type of edges that are going to make a difference in a regular season when we talked about all the issues with some of the teams that we just listed. Justin praising JJ Reddick's play calling.

It just truly is a new year. It's a new day. I'm here for it. I do think the Lakers are going to be better. Like that's why they're my answer. The Clippers, I am both very impressed by, and I think I'm maybe a little bit more worried about the Kauai thing than you are. I'm not just like throwing it out as a point of fact that Kauai Leonard coming in and who

knows what physical state is just going to be like an impact defender for them, because frankly, he hasn't been the highest level defender for the last couple of years when he's been healthy and out there. I think he's regressed pretty significantly from the peak guy. our expectation of what Quy Leonard is on that end of the floor. And even at his best on offense, he's a player who kind of operates siloed from everything else you're doing. He's not an in-the-flow offensive threat.

And granted, the clippers do know how to play that way a little bit, but so much of the vibe and the energy they've been able to cultivate is from this collective spirit and from this collective energy. And yeah, James Harden has the ball in his hands a lot of the time. But there is an understanding of how that works and how that operates. And what that means for Chris Dunn and Norm Pound. and Avita Zupouts, like, these guys know how to play in this format. Kauai is a wrench in the works, and he's an incredibly talented wrench in the works,

and he's not one you turn down if you're the clippers. Like, you literally just cannot afford to turn down that level of shot creation. Am I positive that the clippers are going to win more games and have a better point differential and be overall more impressive with Kauai Ler on the floor? I'm just not. As long as he gets the hell out of Norm Powell's way, things will be fine. The thing is, Norm Powell will. in his last 10 games is shooting like 35% from 3.

It has brought his percentage down to 45 on the season. What a slum. Insane what this guy is doing out there. And it's like 10th year in the NBA. It's just nuts. This is just unprecedented for a guy to be playing his best basketball ever this deep into his career. And so as long as Norm is still allowed to cook

and Kauai respects what this guy is building this season. I think it should be good. I'll be honest, Norm can get his ass to the bench. Like, he can be a six man again. Like, I think it's actually additive. If you put Kauai in the starting lineups to plant Norm and let Norm do that again second units. I think that's totally fine.

I appreciate what Norm Powell has done. Doesn't play a look at defense and is largely just a shoot. That is a hundred percent true. That is a hundred percent true. That's what we got here, guys. Doesn't play a lick of defenses. I think Norm does he does his job

I don't know about that but here's the other thing they're 19 and 14 and they're 6 in the West they don't actually have to like be a rocket ship when quiet they just actually need to stay around this competitive range

going forward so it's not that much different one thing I want to flag with them and you saw this even a little bit when they just got it was at the Spurs that they got absolutely punked by the other night these teams that can it was on New Year's Eve, like Harden, like, come on.

Fluky game, admittedly. That part I'm not too concerned about. What you do notice with them sometimes because of where their offense is right now is when they play, when they play against good offensive teams, they give them a really good fight and sometimes beat those teams. When they play against other really good defensive teams, they just can't score for anything. And it becomes a big problem when you start to look at what's remaining on their schedule. And they've got multiple games left against OKC.

They've got multiple games left against Memphis. this. They have multiple games less against Dallas at the end of the year when Dallas might finally be healthy and back in shape. Those sorts of things do worry me if we're talking about projecting out for the rest of the way. So who are you picking here? You've just shit on everything the entire time. I don't consider either of these teams to be all that impressive. I think they're both perfectly good and sometimes quite impressive on the right night. Ultimately, I would pick the Lakers, but I don't I don't see either of these teams as threatening for all that much. And if we're arguing who's going to go farther, I think they're probably

going to go about as far as each other, which is to say maybe a first round exit, maybe a play and loss. I could see either one of those outcomes for these teams. Thanks. Okay. Well, we're talking about teams that we actually like to watch because clearly these guys don't like- I like- the Clippers for the record. I really do. I really do. I don't know negative Nancy today. Wow. If we're re-ranking the league pass teams, two months into this. So we've had two months of data. We've watched some teams. We fell in love with some teams.

We've gotten out of relationships with certain teams, except for the Hawks because all of us love them and probably have them on our top five. Who's one through five was, if you're going through your league pass re-rankings as of today going forward? And this is, you know, relatively healthy. My number one is probably Memphis right now.

Just because they got a bunch of guys that I'm like, I'm not used to watching. So again, I always feel like it's revelatory to watch these guys, to watch Jake La Raveen, Huff, and all these other guys play. It's like, it's cool to learn about these guys on a night-to-night basis. And then again, I would submit that John Morant, what he does when he's on the floor is the single most unique player in the league. Nobody produces these jokes of excitement as consistently as John Morant.

And so they're number one. And it's not like, you know, that's the clear, distinct number one. But I got them, I got OKC, obviously. It's just fun to watch these guys. Denver has shot up the rankings recently because I do want to talk about what Yo Kitch and Russell Westbrook.

Yeah, they shot up the rankings. From five to three. Yeah, shut up. I mean, look, there's been some bleak moments in the Nugget season. Yeah, 100%. If we're all being honest about it. But there's something that, Yo Kitchen Russ are doing right now that is just kind of just melting my brain that these guys

have developed a genuine chemistry. Like, they're genuinely setting each other up for easy baskets on a, it's just a two-man game that just feels like it just appeared out of the thin blue sky because I did not have this on my NBA bingo card to start the season that these dudes would be like stocking him alone. You know, at some point during the regular season. So that's been a lot of fun. I was about to say, I think Yokic is Stockton? Facts, exactly.

And so, yeah, them, I still got the Hawks and I still have Houston. And the Cavs are my honorable mention because they're just playing so well. I do want to keep up with what they're doing. You know, I don't want to be dismissive. I want to be, like, you know, sort of intimate with how they're killing these guys. And so, yeah, that's my teams right there. Justin, how many of those teams did you have on your list? Two.

Hawks and Cavs. I have the Hawks and Cavs. Well, I actually gave an honorable, like, spot to Hawks and the Bulls as one team because they're kindred spirits in my mind, who I think of is similar, just like, follies for me. Are you buying into the Josh Giddy can defend now, narrative in Renaissance that's been happening? No. he, man, he'll have a triple double one game, then he'll have like six points and like four rebounds the next game. He's, he's maddening. It's tough. Uh, so I have, I have the spurs at number one

because watching Webbenyama develop in real time is just outrageous. The fact that he's like, has like a mid-range jumper like he's fucking Kobe is, it's just like a demigorgon Kobe is, is such a weird thing to watch. And so that's been my most fun experience. And I can't wait to see him figure things out over the course of that. this season still in the play and mix just an f way i to you guys uh the calves i have at number two because of the ethical basketball being played i have to say like jared allen fucking just the best like i feel like if that guy wasn't seven feet he would be like a a columnist at like nintendo power or something and he would be like my favorite twitter he is i love that guy uh i have the hawks

and bulls at three i have the lakers at four in part because like they just added a new guy and i just like watching new teams add new layers he's love watching Dorey and Finney Smith fly his trade. I love that lunch fail mentality. This really gets me going. And number five, and this is an unfortunate one, I had the pistons because at that point, there's just so much new stuff going on with this team. I feel like they'd burn me so much in the past, but I was starting to come around to what

they developed. Cade looks like a clerk cut all-star, if not like, I don't know, top 30, top 25 sort of guy. Ivy just looked awesome. His shot looked beautiful. He was five or six in that game last night from three before he went out. And unfortunately, we got the news today. They broke his fibula. Fibia.

Fibula, I believe it's Fibula. It's such a bummer. Everyone noticed as soon as it happened. Yeah, on the core, everyone was crying. I think in part because nobody likes to see that happen, but just to seem like those guys really loved him and what he'd been able to put together this season. And so that's a bummer.

I still have him on the list, but obviously they'll probably be won't be as exciting going forward without him. He's a hooper's hooper. You know, I think those moments are always hard, as you're saying, when it's any player in the heat of, in the heat of competition having, like, a really traumatic injury. But Jaden Ivy is someone that clearly other players respect, and they respect his talent,

and they respect the way he plays. It's really tough to see. And I feel like he's been a big part of the Renaissance. I guess we could call, what's their record here, 15 and 18 in Renaissance for the Pistons. But, like, they look like a real team. Like, no. It beats the magic, which isn't easy.

For the playing or whatever, like maybe even beyond somehow if they keep improving upon this, that's what makes this, you know, sucky because they've been so snake-bitten or just playing bad realistically the prior few seasons. And that, like, some level of competence has started to get rolling and to have this kind of setback sucks. And I think Ivy was just such a big part of just like he is an overwhelming athlete on the ball. Like, you just have to account for this guy in a way that like not many other players on their team, you know, can garner a defense's respect in both transition.

And he's been better in the half court, man. Like, you know, it just sucks that his season has come to a close this quickly. Completely. And as far as the league past rankings have it all here, true to form, I think in our three wave and diagram that we're building, the Hawks being the only team that all three of us have on our lists rings true. they are the number four to me. I am as shocked as anybody that they're still here and that they're still this fun to watch. I don't know that they always have it.

There are nights you see the Hawks play and it's like, oh, this is rough, this is brutal. They're missing the wrong guy. They just don't have the right energy against like a bad team in particular. But I'm always kind of locked in and I'm always kind of interested in what they're doing. The one team that I haven't heard come up yet

and I'm kind of shocked is the New York Knicks. How are they not on your top fives? It's not a league. That's like a personal requirement for me. It's not, I don't count this as like league pass. It's just part of your daily diet. I'm obligated to keep up with these people when I'm, you know, I'm at a buddy's house watching the Knicks yesterday.

He's trying to talk me into Josh Hart as an all-star. I'm like, all right. Like, these are the kind of conversations I'm having with people. So I have to keep up with like every single freaking detail of his team, man. I think that's entirely fair. They're my number one league pass team right now. Oh, I love that. I love watching them play.

Justin, as you illuminated. Oh, completely. The energy at home is so great. And that starting five in particular is just the most fun that I have watching basketball right now. So I'm thankful that the Knicks in my life. I mean, Breen, come on. He's getting spicy. He was like going at Jordan Clarkson last game.

He's always been spicy. He had that line about Zion and tree clothes. On MSG's popping. I like it. It's almost like getting. him at like the small club before like you get the touring act at the arena it is a little bit like that but yeah so i have the nicks i have the hawks uh waz you and i have the grizzlies and rockets in common just and you and i have the spurs in common i will say this about the spurs who are not just

like legit good but legit fun good and they're one of these you know as we're talking about these defensive teams that can be a little bit of a slog to watch if you're not into that sort of thing i don't ever have that feeling watching the spurs i think what wemby's doing defensively is so exciting. Overall, the level of pressure that they're able to apply is really fun to watch. They're one of these teams that does, I think, primarily win with defense, but is really energizing to just like throw on your TV on a random weeknight. So shout out to the Spurs for the work they're doing. Yeah, I have the Grizzlies and also the Clippers on my short list. I don't know if it's because I'm away from L.A. finally, but there's a certain like appeal to the Clippers and maybe even

the Lakers that I didn't have being in the mix constantly where it's like there's a, like, it's foreign and new to me. It's like, oh, I could turn on a Clippers game. It's not just like, something in my background of my life like every couple of days. Now he's just the dyed and wool Portlander. This is a la. This is just hilarious. Look how brightly colored my flannels are. It's like a melding of the two.

It really is. Yeah. All right. Number five trade deadline approaching about a month. It's earlier this year, February 6th, I believe. So here's the question I have to you guys. It's 1201 PMPT. We don't fuck with ET on this podcast.

On February 6th, who's the biggest player, Rob Mahoney, that has gotten dealt? It's Jimmy Butler. I don't want to get too cute with it. I think it's Jimmy. Pat Riley does a lot of tough talking, but he's also a very shrewd operator,

and he's not dumb, even when he wants to stand on principle. And this thing is, I just think it's over. I think that relationship is over. Eric's supposed to straight up bench Jimmy Butler. in the fourth quarter on Wednesday, maybe a data point to throw out there

as far as your consideration of the way things are and could be headed. So I don't know when that happens, but I feel like we're heading towards a bit of a separation between Jimmy Butler and the heat. You know, man, I put down Dennis Schrooter. I don't think the Jimmy thing...

You don't think we're seeing anything bigger than that? No, I don't think the Jimmy thing is going to happen. You don't think, like, is Cam Johnson a bigger piece than Dennis Schroeder? I don't actually think so. I think he's better. He's more meaningful to a competitive team. Sure.

They're probably in the same milieu, to be fair. That's what I'm saying. Like, the star thing, like, same mover. What's his name? Zach Levine's price has gone up. So I bet you a bunch of teams is going to be like,

they were offering him for this in the summer. Why should I have to pay blah, blah, blah. So they're going to talk themselves and they're not doing it because the price went up because he's played so freaking well. The Jimmy thing, I don't think it's that like Pat Riley is standing on principle. I think what happened is that they fielded offers and the offers are trash.

And so he said, we're not trading Jimmy Butler anymore. To me it felt more like Jim, again, we're all kind of reading the tea leaves of the way the reporting came out. It seemed to me like Jimmy was probably open to a trade and Pat Riley was saying you don't get to do that. It seemed like he was negotiating in public where he's like that's becoming. That's what it felt like to me. Yeah. Yeah. This is becoming a distraction for.

our actual team. He's not going anywhere. Let's just move along, but we're actually silent. But also, my thing is, why, why do we think the offers are going to get better? To me, it's like, if you want a guy like Jimmy Butler and your team, get serious, make the deal, get him into your building. Start the process of integrating Jimmy Butler into your operation. This idea that you're just going to be like, yeah, we can wait a month on this. On Jimmy, that seems strange to me. Or even like, you know, this trade. stuff started two weeks ago. So that would be like a team just being like, yeah, we waited six, seven weeks on Jimmy Butler.

And we should just do it at the deadline because I don't think teams are like, yo, you know, we're just going to wait until the buzzer. Miami's going to have to do it. Like, you're not going to pressure these dudes. I think these guys have an idea of what they deserve for getting Jimmy Butler. And if you don't do it at the deadline, they'll take this shit to the offseason because I bet you Jimmy Butler opting into that deal. boy. I bet you. And so they have more opportunities to trade them is what I'm saying.

There's also no no one with money outside of Brooklyn, unless he like just really wants to get paid and be in a big market. But the way Brooklyn's going, it seems like they're going down to the studs and building back up with Cooper flag or wherever they get in this next draft. And so I'd be surprised. And so you're right. I do think they're probably weighing that against that. And also if they're trading Butler, like what are they this season anyway? They're probably a middling playing team. And so like does their future really change if they, they make a more? move on Butler. I agree with Rob. I think Butler is getting traded. But I also think in the same trade, Zion Williamson is getting traded and Brandon Ingram is getting traded because we all know

three team trades always happen, especially in this CBA. And so this is what we're going to get. Here's what I have. I think I solved all three teams, the Pelicans, the Heat and the Lakers. Oh, you've got it fully outlined. Oh, yeah, yeah. I spent a lot of time on this yesterday. I have a really cool life. It was January 1st. We're off. with myself. It's just a lot of fun. Walk us through it. Show and tell. Yeah.

Okay, the Lakers get Brandon Ingram. The heat get Zion Williamson, Gabe Vincent, and because we need expirings to make this work, Jackson Hayes, expiring, they get rid of them eventually. The Pelicans get Jimmy Butler, Rhee Hachamura,

two expiring, said Chafino and Wood. And we could talk about the picks. I actually don't know what Brandon Ingram is worth on the market in terms of picks, because he's becoming a free agent. So I would say like one plum future first from the Lakers, maybe like a second or something for the heat just to like figure things out.

But we can talk about the picks, but the players are basically Pelicans or Jimmy and Rui. He or Zion and they have to take Gabe Vincent back just to make the math work and the Lakers get Ingram. I think the biggest question is with the Pelicans, right? They are basically saying we're getting rid of this brand new era that we've been selling. Yeah. Yeah, we're turning the page on the Zion Ingram.

that we've been selling for several years. I actually think it makes sense, one, because you lean into the best of times when you are a scrappy playoff team with Herb Jones, like standing toe to toe with people, and now you're Murray, Butler, Herb,

Murphy, and Missy. Plus, and this is a big thing, the lottery pick from this year, because I don't think getting Jimmy is going to really, like, upend, like a five-win team at this point. And so you're basically saying to Jimmy, It's like, we know you want this new contract. We'll give you the money.

Just like write our ship. We just want to have an identity. We're going to be scrappy. And you're going to be the godfather, Tony Allen style, to this scrappy young wing core. And we're just going to be that team. That's my pitch. I'm selling it incredibly hard. What do you think?

I love the idea of getting rid of the kids. Just because it's just been so freaking bad. the idea that the heat would try to impose their program on Zion Williamson and, you know, do the Dionne Waiters, White Side, all these reclamation projects that they've had in the past. I like that as an idea. I'm not opposed to that. The thing about the Ingram thing is that I think the best ever stretch he had with the Lakers

was the season before AD after the trade deadline. He was basically so freaking bad before because obviously it's like, when am I going to get dealt in like, it's a horrible work situation. And then after the deadline, he was just so freaking good, right? And so, but I wonder if the lack of a contract just becomes the new trade deadline in L.A. Whereas it's like, are they going to rush to be like, yeah, Brandon, we brought you in and now we're going to pay the hell out of you. then, you know, we're locked into this four man with you, Braun, AD, and Austin. I don't know. Obviously, he's way better than Rui, but will he be a better fitting player with this group?

I just, I don't know, man. I don't know. I never thought someone would make me make the argument that Rui Hachamura is a better fit for the Lakers. Although, like, to Rui's credit, he has proven to be that over time. He has found his place there. He knows what he does well. I think they've actually featured him pretty effective. and like played him to his strengths.

Brandon Ingram playing within the flow that the Lakers are attempting to play with worries me considerably. And I get from a talent perspective why you roll the dice and you're kind of betting if you are the Lakers in that scenario, can you get the like Andrew Wiggins effect

out of Brandon Ingram, right? Have an overqualified guy a little lower on the depth chart. Maybe he pops when you need him to. Maybe that influence of like star power and the threat of having him on the floor can mean something. something to you.

I do think just in the trade that you laid out, like, are the Lakers trading five for one? Yes. No, it's more than that. It's one, two, three, four, no, five. You're right. Five for one. So there may be some like roster stuff that has to happen in conjunction with that just to field an NBA team.

That's all solvable in the grand scheme of things. Not too worried about that. No one who's playing except for Rui. And the Pelicans just get a guy off the bench. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nobody who's really like, I mean, Gay Vincent is playing. sometimes I'm not worried about

I'm not worried about replacing Gabe Vincent that's not a concern out there yes I think in the who says in the who says no of this I think it might be the Lakers that's crazy to me or Jimmy Butler I think Jimmy Butler might say no but he doesn't really have a say

just yeah get a place in the French quarter just like country money that's kind of what it's for Jimmy just like finish out your career as still a guy I'm kind of surprised because if you look at, I think the good way to look at trades is like, what are you giving up to get what you have? And the Lakers, frankly, this is a pretty low price to pay for a recent All-Star.

The one thing I think with Ingram is like he tends to get warped into what we've seen of him in previous season, which I agree. I'm not the biggest Ingram fan, but I do think he had been making efforts to be more of a three-point shooter. The catch-and-shoot numbers have been particularly good this year. The volume on threes has been good. He hasn't played since December 7, so that's a kind of concern as well. But I just think, like, the talent upside is way worth the squeeze if you're just trying to work him into there. And I don't know, they're big and long.

He obviously isn't going to help you defensively, but I think bringing in Dorian Finney Smith and what Max Christie is doing as a 3-&D guy for the guard spot actually helps. Like, you're like eight deep of really quality guys at that point that I would take the risk, even if it means resigning him at a dollar amount that is probably not palatable. the other thing is like by making the Finney Smith trade, I think they're projecting to go into the second apron next year anyway. This is also kind of like get in under the wire, get the talent, and then figure it out later. I think an underrated part two of Ingram's game at this point is that he is a pretty good secondary ball handler initiator kind of guy. Like he is

much improved as, you know, like he can run an offense for possessions at a time. Obviously you don't want him being your point guard or whatever full time. But under this, construction where it's like you have him, Austin, and Braun, rotating the ball handling duties. I think that's a pretty strong threesome, you know, for a 48-minute game of having those three guys as your on-ball kind of guys all game. I like that. I hate just, what I just hate about Ingram and what I've been burned on in the past is, just how tools he is, and just how disinterested he is in unlocking them in terms of his length and his quickness and what that can mean on defense. He's never been a rebounder. Like, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's

annoying to watch a guy with that much God-given talent and gifts for this sport. And just, he just like, I'm a bucket get her. That's it. That's what I do. I get buckets. I don't do anything else. See, I can, I can hear the Andrew Wiggins conversation in my head as you're saying all this. Yeah. It's, it's a good comp, but then Wiggins fell into a defensive-minded role, whereas Inger would still be an offensive-minded playmaker type. I recognize why it would be tougher, but I don't know. I think I solved all three teams, frankly. You may have.

I'll say this. We are talking about the scenarios in which the Lakers end up in the top six this season. I think for something like this to happen, they would have to distinctly not be in that category, right? If their season starts to go sideways, if the Finney Smith trade doesn't pan out the way they thought it would, they find themselves more in like the 8 to 10 range of the West, then you start getting into like,

fuck it, let's trade for Brandon Ingram zones pretty quickly. Because why not? And the Pelicans are going to be in a position where like, if you're staring down the end of the season as a Pelicans.

D. Yeah, I think you're just taking something at that point. Brandon Ingram ending back up in L.A. playing with AD after all. Like, oh my God. Well, they already sent DELO back to Brooklyn.

Let's bring Brandon Ingram back to L.A. Everything that's old is new again. Yeah. When Russ and Harden rejoined, on the clippers. I was like, we've, we've lost track of the plot like five trades ago. So we're all just doing like putting things into like a, what is it, Yatzi shaker and just like throwing it back out there. Sure. Okay. Thank you for going along with that. Last question on the board here, MVP, you got to talk about it because it's starting to become something of a race.

I'll be honest, this question was way more interesting before last night's game before. Yokic had a at a 23 point triple double and 30 minutes and actually sat out a fourth quarter. So here's the setup. I blank, and just give your name, declare that on this date January 2nd, 2025, the MVP race is blank.

Rob, would you like to go first? Yeah, I, Rob Mahoney, declare that on this day, January 2nd, 2025, the MVP race is kind of boring to me. Hmm.

I don't disagree. Yeah, I don't. I don't disagree with that take, Rob. I think it's obvious who the MVP is. But honestly, I think Shea is making a stronger case than before I dug into, like, his numbers before coming on here.

It's like, yo, like, he's kind of catching Yokic in the sort of, you know, all-in-one impact metrics. Whereas, like, Yolkich was just smoking everybody before. And Gilges Alexander is like catching up to him. And so I think it's a Yokic and SGA convoy at this point. Whereas, you know, before Boston went five and five and all of that, I definitely thought Tatum was right there. And it was right there with both of these guys.

I think now SGA and Yokic have sort of separated themselves from the flock. And if you watch them on a day-to-day night-to-night basis, they are kind of dominating the outcomes for their teams. Like in a way that even Tatum, who again, his on-off is off the charts, you know, this year finally again, I think what he does on offense in terms of being one of the people that, like, will puncture the defense with his drives, the shooting being back, all of that stuff.

Defensively, he's clearly the best defender, you know. Like, I love what he's doing this year. But Yolkich, man, Jesus Christ. Again, I mentioned the Russ stuff just because it's so eye-popping. And it was brought to my attention. And this is not semantics. People are going to be like, well, Jamal Murray is an all-star. Nicole Yokes has never played with an NBA All-Star in his entire career.

And, like, it's crazy that, like, Russ is way better at finding him than Murray ever. This is nuts to me. Like, just playing with Russ. Russ is, like, a better distributor to Yolkich specifically. than anybody Yokos has ever played within his career. And like now he's just averaging 30. Like every rebound just sticks to the guy's freaking hands like crazy glue. And then of course the assist numbers, like you're just watching.

And it's, it's obvious. He's setting everything up from the nail. He's bombing away from three. He's just, it's crazy how well he's playing this year, man. I compared them last night on text with you guys to Elton John joining Eminem on stage. and now I can't unsee that. There's just like something there. It shouldn't work on paper,

but there's a synergy that like really clicks with these guys. Rob, you don't find this compelling. See, for me, I'm missing the juice, right? Like,

I agree that there's good candidates, really good players playing incredibly high level of basketball. If you would argue for Yokic, if you would argue for Shea, I think Janus probably deserves a bigger place in this conversation than he's been given, honestly, but even here.

and then yeah Jason Tatum of course that the Celtics continue to be that good that's kind of the field right now based on what the injury situations of the other stars look like those are good players I don't need things to get nasty for me personally like I don't need to drag

us back to the Embed Yokic wars you don't want to racialize the MVP race that's the thing I don't want to link this to the history of slavery in America the MVP race has just become a toxic waste of and so it's tough to even like this is the reason why it's six on our on our docket today it's just like you almost

grown having to go into these conversations you know like you have to get the shiv just like by your side at least like at the ready it's a little bit i think what rob is speaking to is that there's nothing existential about this race tatum is a maid man now yon has been a made man already won mp's already won defensive player the year already won a championship yokech the same thing this would be his fourth mvp you know she we already know he's already know he's He's here. He's one of the best. He's a superstar.

Like, we've already made these decisions about these guys. It's not like the Embed and Yokish thing. It wasn't just like, yo, M.B., one of the best players. It's like, is he better than Yokic? You know, like, we were literally debating that. I wasn't, but people were, you know, like, it was literally, there was something to it. There was something existential at stake in terms of defining these guys. and there's nothing definitional about this MVP race so far.

Like these are all known quantities at this point. And, you know, for Shea, like, he's going to have to prove it in the postseason in terms of making his name there. But, like, we all accept that he's a dominant NBA player, period. I think I'm just waiting for the proxy arguments about the different kinds of contributions that these guys provide. Like, I don't really hear a lot of clearly articulated cases, is why I should value what Shea does over what Yokic does or what Yonis does.

I just hear a lot of not even yelling because I don't think it's that loud. I don't think people are that fevered about this stuff yet or maybe they never will be given this crop of players. But like, I do enjoy a spirited debate with this stuff. But I enjoy a spirited debate where we're like really drilling into the value of what Yonis provides on defense relative to the way Yonk it structures you on offense. Like that's the conversation I want to have. Or even if you want to have it on a like, Shea might be.

definitively the best player on the best team kind of angle. And like, is that a thing that we should value more? And I want to hear the case for why that's true. I think we've gotten into such a rhythm with this stuff where there are the default talking points and we hit the talking points and the people who believe that Shea is the MVP or Janus or Tatum hit their talking points. And there's no interaction and there's no actual reconciliation of any of those ideas. It's just kind of stuff in the ether.

And so I'm left watching all these players and enjoying all these players. But I can't say like I really feel. all that strongly or all that compelled to participate in a conversation for the MVP at this point. I'm just like not that moved by it. I think part of it is that Yokic's dominance has almost depressed any sort of oncoming kind of counterpoint. Because if we've already established that at the end result of these conversations, that what Yokic does is the Trump card, and I agree that it has been, like how do you mount another argument for Janus's two-way play if we're saying that Yokish not only is playing at the level he has at before, but he's actually exceeding that.

He's playing better on offense than he ever has before. And so if we valued that in the past, like, it almost shuts down the conversation before it even happens. And like, honestly, that's probably the biggest sign of dominance than ever anything else we can come up with is the fact that you can't mount an argument against Michael Jordan in an MVP conversation. It's just like, you can't have the conversation. And so that's probably more of a feather in Yokic's cap than anything else. I went and looked at the offensive rating for Yokic on court. It's gone up since we did this little exercise. It's just like, he's nuts. It's, it's ridiculous what he's doing out there. And again, like seeing Shea in person, man, and seeing how he is kind of the emotional center point of

OKC2, like he is, it's not just what he's doing on the court. Like, he's managing it. as a player, like spiritually and like emotionally too, was really impressive in person. It's like, oh, like, it's not just that he's the best player. He's clearly the leader of this team, which I'm somebody calling me old school. I care about that kind of stuff. Like, I do think it's important that you bring the group together as the best player and you lead these guys into battle.

And Shay is doing that. And that's why, again, to me, what he's doing on the court, off the court, it just means so much. And that's why I put him as number two. You know, some of what I feel like I'm missing is he hasn't been quite good enough. And he's not going to be eligible probably because as we mentioned, he's now currently week to week. And I think he's already missed 14 games. A Jaum-Mrant MVP push could have been the kind of like spice that I feel like we're missing a little bit right now because you're right.

Well, it's like, Shea's already been anointed in so many ways. If this were a meaningful return to form and also kind of elevation of the Ja-Morant project, that could be a really fun element of this conversation to have to reckon with and understand what he means to the Grizzlies, even when they're winning without him in the lineup. I would love to contextualize all that stuff within the MVP race, but he's not going to be eligible. Luca's not going to be eligible. Like, those are two big names off the board. They're not going to be in the mix.

You're having a midlife crisis with the MVP and you just want something young and new to spice things up. Logger Rob would never have this take. Lager Rob would have reached in the depths of his soul. to make this MVP interesting. But now, you know, senior writer, you know, he's going to pop culture these days. Wow.

He can't bring it. He can't bring himself. That's what's happening. I can bring myself to enjoy watching all these guys. And I think they're fucking incredible. I just can't bring myself to really get in the trenches of arguing it. Crazy. Well, you know what I did not enjoy?

This is Bob Dylan with the electric guitar. I did not enjoy watching. shit new for it. Let's go. The Nuggets play defense because I've watched a couple games, probably 20, 25 games in person this year, this season. Seeing the Nuggets play defense

was one of the worst performances I think I've seen. It was all guys, like I can't say this enough. It was mind-blowingly bad. To the point where I was convincing myself that Yokic must be saving himself for the fourth quarter because he needs to because it seems that bad because

I have Stockholm syndrome from like being around you guys so much. I just like have to come up with a reason why Yokic was just like completely taking plays off. There was one play where Scoot Henderson got into the teeth in the defense and Yokic actually like backed off and was going to give it to him because that's what he was doing at that point. And then Scoot passed out like Ben Simmons. It's just like, oh, well, this is actually worse in a different way. It's so what I have down here is that I declare that the MVP race is Calvin Booth's. It's in his hands. Because I do think at a certain point, there's just going to be diminishing returns

where it's like the defense conversation with Yokic is so tried and true. And I think it gets warped to a point where it's not even true to his actual performances. But I do think we're at a point where it might start to hinder his ability to mount an MVP case if it continues to be this bad. So they have to do something. They have to give him help to take plays off in order so he could try again on that end. That's what I would say. Yeah, I'm just not too worried about the defense.

I don't think Yolk has been best, but I've certainly seen him play worse. I actually don't think so. I think you think this is the worst defense he's ever played in his career. I mean, I can't go back 10 years ago, but like when he was like playing next to Nirkich or whatever, but I would say since he's come to four, he's been awful. And the team has had stretches where they have been, quite frankly, like dog shit. Like it's been very bad. And like last night was the flip side of that.

They could blow teams off the court with offense. But how many teams can you do that too? There are only so many hawks in the league. So in the post Yokic chugging two liter bottles of Coke era, I think famously like during halftime, if I'm remembering correctly, in the post Coke era, this is the worst defense you've seen him play. How do kids do this? Like I remember walking into the wizard's locker room where it was like the John Wall,

Nick Young era and they were just eating chinkin figures like 20 minutes before a game. I was like human body just makes wonders. Derek Rose won the MVP basically subsisting on gummy bears. So anything is possible when you're at that age. But yeah, I think it's Yokic is to lose. They just need to give them help because it's going to get dire pretty quickly. It's already, it's a mess.

It's a mess most times that they take the floor. I mean, the catch 22 of that is part of the Yokic case at this point for this particular season is how much lifting he has to do. And so, you know, there is a certain kind of voter for whom adding more help to that team would negate some of his case. I would never be so foolish. I think we all recognize how good Yokic is on this spot. But yeah, it's a convoluted thing.

It was a stretches in the first half of that Hawks thing where, you know, obviously Yokic is, he's in the center of it. So it's eye-popping to watch him, but it's not just him. Like, the team isn't playing. a team concept of defense. And then, you know, Aaron Gordon was out last night, so that's always going to make things like way worse on that end of the court. And so I'm with just, I just don't, you know,

I think there's a rational explanation as to why Yokic isn't playing as well as he did two years ago on defense. And I don't think it's because he's incapable of it. So that's why I'm not crazy worried about it. Can I ask one question about this, which is Janus at this point. point has missed six games. If he picks up any kind of injury that takes him out for like two to three weeks, he could also be off the ballot.

How close are we to Carl Towns, Donovan Mitchell? Why not? I'm not even saying that looking down at those guys in any way, but I just think they could easily get fourth or fifth on this ballot if this thing breaks the wrong way in terms of injury luck for some guys. Tatum for his part is an Ironman. So Tatum's going to be there. The Celtics are going to beat people.

Shea has not missed any time generally quite healthy. She doesn't miss games. And look, man, if we want to throw towns or Brunson or one of these guys who are, you know, Donovan Mitchell because he's at the top of them. I mean, Wendy is the whole position to win defensive player of the year. If you're playing 70 games at this point, you're probably going to be in the top 10.

That's fair. That's fair. We'll see, though. I could see Cat. Cat's probably going to be in the mix. Like, he's definitely going to have the minutes to do so. Yeah, he's been really good, and I think probably deserving of it

in terms of like an actual basketball contribution level, but then you get into that splitting of the hair with him and Brunson that could cost both of them a spot of fifth. Look at all this stuff we have to figure out in the new year. In 2025, look at what's ahead for us. Exciting times in the NBA. All right, let's wrap it there. Please, let's wrap it there.

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