The Ringer NBA Show - Six Questions as Trade Season Begins, Plus the Jazz Hire Danny Ainge | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos open with a discussion on the current state of the league as it deals with COVID-19 (01:00). Then, they look at some of the biggest questions on their minds entering trade season, including potential Ben Simmons destinations and whether the Celtics should look into splitting up Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown (07:00). Later, they react to the Jazz hiring Danny Ainge as CEO (1:10:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Production Assistant: Jonathan Kermah Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome to the Ringer Golf podcast, Fairway Rowland. I am your starter, Joe House. Throughout the golf season, our PGA tour correspondent on the ground, Nathan Hubbard and myself are bringing you all of the very best takes having to do with the world of golf. That is Fairway Rowland, which you can find on Spotify. And welcome to group chat. I'm Justin Varyer. Joining me, as always, Rob Mahoney, big Waz. I'm glad to see you're not in health and safety protocols, man. Hey, man, I might be.

Listen, that thing is going around the entire league. Like, yesterday's business is crazy. I know. So as we're recording this on Wednesday, it seems like half the league is dealing with, I'm not sure if it's COVID outbreaks per se, but at the very least a lot of teams are putting guys into health and safety protocols. There's a little bit of vagueness, whether or not people have it, whether or not it's just about contact tracing, et cetera. But the Hornets, the Lakers, the Bulls, the Nets. I'm sure there

are more teams. Janus are best and our brightest are now off the floor here. Alvin Gentry, all of 67. I remember, like, he and Mike Dantony, there was worry about them even going to the bubble because they were so old and, like, what that could do for someone of their age. I got to say, I'm just, like, pretty numb to this all. Obviously, there are, like, grave concerns about all of this, but like we've been through this now, what, three times, probably more, where it seems like this is becoming like a huge issue in the league. And it's just like, I don't know what to say about it at this point other than like yikes again, Rob, what do you think? Well, I think just that we were probably naive to think this could be a normalish season, that this kind of thing was going

to be inevitable, especially around the winter, like as a country, we are susceptible to these waves. And so, of course, the NBA is going to as well. And now, this is really the first time I think over the last week, we've started to see the swelling cases really affect the product on the floor. Like, some of these teams are out, seven, eight guys to the point where the Bulls had game suspended, you know, the Nets. Well, I mean, let's talk about the COVID-depleted Nets for a second, because they just won an overtime game against the Raptors. They had seven players in protocols.

Just to give us a sense of where we are competitively, I want to read you guys three names. Two of them are actual members of the Nets that participated in this game. One of them is not. You tell me who is not. Brooks Barnes, Dayron Sharp, and Kessler Edwards. Which of those is not

a real member of the Brooklyn name? Brooks Barnes. Yeah, that was going to be my guess. Crushed it. He's the New York Times reporter who wrote a piece today about life growing up in the carnival.

That's good. Did David Duke, Jr. get some minutes? Well, if he did, he started. Yeah, that's just tough all around. Yeah. But you know, To me, like, this is what the vaccine is for, right?

Yeah. It's like the point of it is not that you're never going to catch COVID again. It's that your symptoms won't be as severe as other people. And, you know, it's been proven by the data that the boosters are helping as well. And, like, people are going to get this. But again, like, knock on wood, more than likely, close to 100%, not going to die from this. and we'll be able to make full recovery. So this is just part of the new normal as far as I'm concerned. So, you know, it's nice to see that the league is actually taking it serious

and, like, putting guys, making guys stay away from the team for contact tracing and all of that. But I can't say that I'm really startled by this. Like, you see it everywhere. People are still getting sick from it. It's just not, like, you know, freaking hospital beds full of people in New York City like it was back in March. in April of 2020.

And you're absolutely right. Like, we just haven't heard that many cases for all of the NBA players who have been in and out of the protocols who have come back with longer-term lasting symptoms or more serious cases. Like, there's no Jason Tatum of this season so far, at least that I know of, who's, you know, come back and having to use an inhaler, who's coming back and having these dogging problems in terms of his endurance and conditioning that he can't shed. So it does seem to be more minor expressions of COVID so far, at least.

Yeah. The more immediate concern is just what happens if they have to like cut into the actual schedule. If there are so many teams that can't participate, then like what do they do, you know, in January and February? Because as we know last year, they built in a protection into the schedule because they didn't actually schedule the second half of the season. This year, it's fully scheduled out 82 games. So we'll see. I mean, if the NBA does have to make some big calls here, it would be interesting to see whether

or not they'll hit pause on the season or they'll just kind of trudge through and just like hope for the best. I got to say, my overall reaction to COVID news these days, both in the NBA and across other sports kind of fits this familiar pattern, where it's just like, I do think the NBA has at this point handled things particularly well. Like the bubble I thought like went as successful as it could last season, went about as successful as it could. But then I say to myself, like, am I just blindly trusting like a for-profit business like an institution and that just like doesn't feel good. But then I also don't know, like, I personally don't feel informed enough to really say that, like, the NBA isn't handling these things well enough. And I often think

the people who are most full-throated about this, particularly on Twitter, like, aren't informed about, like, COVID or the NBA's, like, particular handling of the situation and the point where I just, like, I kind of just shrug, you know, like, I hope for the best, but, and it's probably going to be worse before it gets better. But, like, I think this is going as well as it could. Question mark, shrug? I don't know. Well, as for the worst before it gets better, let's not forget that the NBA in February

is about to host a massive party in a very cold weather city in Cleveland for All-Star Weekend. That's a great point. I mean, a lot of, you know, just when things might look like they're starting to die down by late January, early February,

assuming it even does that, we could see them pick right back up again, at least as far as NBA cases are concerned. All right. Let's move along here. to the topic du jour, which today is a very special day in the NBA, or at the very least, it's a special day for content creators, because I don't know if anything actually happens around December 15th, but now we've kind of dubbed this unofficial holiday or the opening

of trade season, I would say. It's not really that close to the trade deadline, but players who signed over the offseason, at least a large chunk of them, are now available to be traded yet again. And so there's just like more maneuverability. I think like conversations pick up around now. And so we wanted to mark the day on the calendar by talking about the six big questions as trade season begins. I mean, how as an NBA editor, how do you celebrate, Justin? Like, do you decorate your place? Like, how do you celebrate the holiday? It's with this podcast right here. I do like to think that Bobby Marks just shows up in Sikakis and it's like ringing a giant bell like the stock

exchange is just open. Outside Bristol with like a pot, you know, contribute to all my trade rumors, my Instagram videos. Yeah, no, I put on this fucking cardigan and I do a podcast with you guys. So, mazzletoff, happy holidays. All right, let's start here. Let's start from the beginning, the very beginning, I guess. It feels like we've been talking about this over the past couple months here, Ben Simmons. We're now, what, like three months or something into the standoff? It got particularly gruesome for a while, then it kind of went away. But we're back, baby, to the point where Woj is reporting last week that trade conversations are in quotes gathering momentum.

Not really sure what that means. Shams is saying that interested teams are starting to reconnect with the Sixers. But I do think it's interesting because you're starting to see more teams jump into the mix reportedly. Like you're starting to see teams like the Lakers and the Knicks and the Blazers

and the Blazers and the Cavs, like teams that we weren't talking about before at the very least. So my question to you is, are any of these new teams or are just like any potential suitors out there, particularly appealing to you now, knowing what you know about this entire saga, knowing about how other teams have performed and potentially might want to change the trajectory

of their season and their teams as a result? No, not really. Okay, great. Especially when you, you know, you're hearing stuff like the, the Lakers and the Knicks. And again, because if we're to take Darrell Mori at his word, the team needs to, quote, quote, get better, and also he has four years to get this done. And so if I'm supposed to take this dude at his word, why should he be excited by anything the Knicks have to offer right now?

I don't know what on the Knicks makes the Sixers better, right? Even if he gets a big haul of draft picks, et cetera, et cetera, y'all not going to be better for it this year for it. Obviously, the Lakers damn sure ain't got nothing to give up. Okay. No Russell Westbrook reunion with Daryl Morey? No, I don't see that as a possibility given that Mori's done nothing but collect shooters

since he's gotten there. And Westbrook is, you know, one of the worst He's a shooter. He's a shooter. Yeah, he is a shooter. So, yeah, I don't know why we should be excited about any of this. Again, Darryl Morris said this could take up to four years. Yeah.

I think this conversation might work as two buckets. Like, are there players that you think fit Mori's preference, like one of these top 30 guys that he thinks he can get for Ben Simmons? Is there a team that because of the recent results might be willing to give that guy up, for instance, James Hardin? Or do you think the Sixers are at the point that they've been through this enough that maybe, and like Tyrese Maxie, some of the other guys are playing well enough, that they might be actually to think more long-term,

get an asset package around picks and whatnot, and spin that into something eventually, play the long game. Well, I think no matter which way it goes, it just seems increasingly likely to me that this is going to have to be a three-team thing. Like, finding the direct suitor for Simmons is so tough. And that's why I think the teams that make most sense right now, given what we've learned about them

and their potential interest in a player like Simmons, are three teams that have kind of been there from the start in one capacity or the other. the wolves who I think have been just good enough to talk themselves into making a move, but not so good they won't lose four games in a row, which is kind of what you want for a Ben Simmons trade partner potentially. The Blazers who, I mean, are just kind of falling apart and need to do something, preferably something bigger. And then the kings who are just, you know, were born into chaos, so why not lean into it at this point? Sure. And the return there would

be what, just like a pick package? See, I think it would have to be something like Deeran Fox going to another team and then some other stuff. Whether that's like a Brad Beal-centric deal coming to the Sixers or something that makes a little more mechanical sense for them because, again, a lot of these players just don't make, they're not good fits for Philly. They're not good fits for playing with Joelle and B. The idea of putting Fox in that position, even as Fox's play has trended up a little bit over the last couple weeks,

still just stylistically doesn't really work for them. Yeah. Or even I think about the Pacers, which to me, you should be centering a deal around Malcolm Brogden and some other stuff. But even Brogden is like he's a guy who's always hurt. I think he makes the Sixers better, for sure, much better, much more formidable. But like he's not even somebody. You can count on so it's like Brogden picks, stuff. Like, again, like, and I hate to sell like a broken record here.

if Simmons were this intriguing, you know, just amazing player that people were dying to get into their building, the whole league would be lining up, right? Like, he's just not that. Like, there's this disconnect between what more he wants us to think this guy is and what the reality is, right? Like, the whole league is just like, why? Like, if I'm Charlotte, like, am I blowing up my situation to get that dude into my body? building? You know, like, ostensibly, like, he's a young guy proven all-star level, all-MDA defense. How could Charlotte not want to bring somebody like that to supercharge what they got

going on that's very exciting? They're not. Here's a question. Here's like a related question. Would you rather have today Ben Simmons or Miles Bridges? Miles Bridges. Thank you. Rob? I mean, if the Sixers could take that, could get that deal, I would, I would think they would take it, right? I think so. Mount Bridges gets buckets. Yeah, you can score. He's not the same defender, but he's not the same defender, but he's a capable defender. He's not like some sieve on the defensive end.

And he's, you know, positionally on defense, he's versatile. Like he can hold up against bigger guys. He's obviously got quick feet to guard certain type of wings. Why would I sign up for Ben Simmons non-shooting self over Miles Bridges? That don't even make no damn sense. Yeah, the question there would be, does he fit the criteria of, you know, if the Sixers really are gunning for a top 30 kind of player or a potential top 30 kind of player? Can Bridges be that? I think there's a reasonable case this season that he could be long term, but on the timeline that they need, you know, in a way that could make sense for all parties involved in terms of deal construction. And that's where this stuff just gets messy every time because there's like five teams that make sense for Ben Simmons. was you just laid out the Pacer's case and like they kind of make sense

but also to your point about Brogden they can't even trade him this season so thank goodness it's a four year project because they're going to need potentially more than one season to get this done if they want to really drag their feet on the top 25 return of it all right what do we think about the Nets possibility

I know this is like the real chaos theory option but like there has been some scuttle butt about James Hardin obviously the Kyrie consistently looms over the Nets and the entire NBA. Would you like a deal where Hardin goes to the Sixers, Simmons, and whatever, goes back to the Nets?

Yeah, I actually do like that deal in the sense that it reunites Hardin and Mori so they could fulfill their destinies together to never having done anything. But, you know, I think it makes sense in a sense that, like, look, if Kyrie's going to come back eventually, allegedly, he Instagrammed his sneakers the other day, which I guess is like, I'm back. Did he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm back in the lab. Or he was just trying to sell sneakers. Oh, who knows? Who knows? I think we know. This actually makes sense, right? Like, if Kyrie's going to be your primary ball handler, Simmons being surrounded,

being put next to KD and Kyrie guys with the ultimate level of gravity and shooting, opening stuff up for him. Obviously, he would be their best wing defender. You don't have to make KD do any of that kind of stuff. That would make sense for the Nets and the Sixers. But, you know, if I'm KD, I don't want that dude on my team. Also, like, teams that are in first place in their conference don't trade for Ben Simmons.

They're not going to bust up their team for the, you know, everything with James Harden and notwithstanding, you just don't make a swing that's that big right now. Yeah, if it is possible, it's probably, more of an off-season conversation. I would just love to see Embed, like, just get a running mate in there because it does feel really bad to watch him out there. And he has been playing well. And the Sixers overall have been playing pretty well.

Yeah. But just to, like, waste the prime of, like, one of the best centers of our generation is really good one. By the time, Showson Tobias Harris for having the greatest job in the history of all time. Be paid like a max player, like one of the best players in the entire league. And nobody mentions your name. name ever. You basically live in basketball or NBA anonymity. It's the greatest job ever. It's like all the perks of being a celebrity, but getting to go to the mall and shop without people mobbing you.

It's incredible. Congrats to him to be able to go to the Century City Mall in the off-season. I do think we've had one development on the Simmons front, which is the situation in Portland has gotten dramatic enough that I think they're going to end up shaking the trade market one way or the other. You know, depending on what happens with C.J. McCollum and his health situation, we'll have to see kind of when he gets back and what kind of shape he's in and all that. But just the fact that a player like him could be in the market in a serious way, I think either puts them in the connection with the Sixers directly on a C.J. McCollum plus a lot of other stuff deal for Ben Simmons, or their mere presence on the market, I think, might help the Sixers restore some of the leverage in their own discussions. Because now it just kind of complicates and muddles the picture enough, those other teams who might have been waiting for Simmons value to deplete, now all of a sudden have a more competitive market they have to deal with. Yeah. My question with the Blazers and the Sixers is if Dame does go on the market, because that's clearly like one of the players that

Morrie is waiting for here. I wonder if the Sixers are even at the front of that line in terms of assets packages. Like is Ben Simmons plus as many picks as you could stuff down whoever Joe Cronin or wherever the GM now there is throat? Is that best? than like what the Knicks can offer considering that the Knicks might be worse over the next couple of years than a team with Dame Lillard and Joelle Embed. I don't know. Like I think I think the real ironic like dark comedy outline of this of this whole thing would be if Dame comes on the market and he doesn't go to the Sixers because like somebody else

just trumps the Sixers offer. But it could happen. I think that's also a realistic time. The fact that it could happen with Hardin and then Lillard that they both kind of seemed earmarked for Philly and then neither ends up there. It definitely would fulfill the dark comedy part of your outline. Sure. Yeah, I don't know.

You know, the Sixers, again, like, if they really wanted to get funky, they could do the Maxie thing. They could do Ben Simmons. They could do a myriad of stuff. But then it's like, all right, like, I'm getting rid of Matisse. I'm getting rid of Maxie. I'm getting rid of Simmons. And I bring in Dame Lillard, like, I don't know.

And especially, oh, my God, don't talk to Sixers fans. on Twitter about this freaking Maxie kid, like he is the second coming, you know, or at least freaking John the Baptist is, you know, one of them. Sure. All right, let's move along here to probably a more contentious question here. Number two is do the Celtics need to split up Jane Brown and Jason Tatum, which seems particularly spicy of a question.

And I admit it is. But, I mean, I think it's particularly relevant considering coming off the Sixers because a couple of years ago, there was a pretty full-throated debate over like whether or not Simmons and Embed could fit together. And I was very vocal at the time saying, like, no, it doesn't seem like they're a good fit. You should try to break them up as much as possible. And here we are. Seems to have gotten to Ackham's Razor, I guess. I wonder if we're in store for a similar thing, Rob, like, what do you think? Do you think, like, I guess the better question is, do you think the Celtics situation needs a complete overhaul? Do they need to split up

their two best players, or is this different than the Sixthor situation because of, like, the type of games that they have? And if anything, they actually just need to surround them with better players and maybe that is the move at the deadline. I have been radicalized by this podcast. I love it. Yes, we did it. Finally. You know, my default position with this stuff is don't break up young wing of players who are this good. Yeah. My evolving position is, should it really be this hard for two guys of this caliber to have a pretty good team. And the fact that it seems pretty hard, I think sends some red flags

up for me. So I am kind of moving more toward at least exploring options, at least kicking the tires, at least hearing people out versus, you know, slamming the phone down whenever anyone calls to ask about Jalen Brown or whatever. Like I think we are at the point where you have to start asking some pretty serious questions about the long-term viability of that. For all the reasons we've circled around for months and years and seasons of the playmaking and their compatibility and what kinds of shots they create when they do create shots. It just doesn't, something about this doesn't smell quite right to me at this stage. Welcome to Q, baby. You know, man, like Rob, just in a pure basketball dork way to look at it, there's no way you could tell me that

of quality team cannot be you know freaking built from having these two guys as a foundation like they're both plus wing defenders they're both able to get pretty good looks on their own one on one they're both pretty credible

playmakers if not good they're credible they both shoot it so they spread the floor so I'm like you can't tell me these combinations of skills cannot be paired with some other, you know, competent NBA guys to do a quality team. But I wonder if the stuff that isn't quite basketball,

as far as culture setting, is, you know, we're kind of past the point of no return here, right? Like, maybe these guys, if they're both going to take up 70, 80, damn their percent of your cap, and neither one of them is going to be like a leader of men, culture setter type of guy, then maybe that's when you run into some sort of problems and you might need to break up the monotony at some point, right?

But I think that's beyond just a basketball fit. To me, and, you know, I think it's the same as Phillies. Like, they need a grown-up table-setter type of guy on offense. Like, they just do. Like, freaking Tatum and Brown just aren't elite playmakers. They aren't guys that open up positions for you, like some of the guys that we see around the league that are ball dominant in the way.

that they are. So yeah, I mean, but to, you know, and again, to what end? Like,

what are you going to get in here if you trade? Because you know, they're never going to trade Tatum. It's going to be brown. Because everybody, you know, I think Tatum's moves

is just so much prettier. So people think that he's just way better, but he's not. Guess what? He's younger. And I think he's under contract for longer. I mean, he's 19,

he's 19 years old, right? Right, right. Yeah. I think that joke is 19 years old. I forgot about that joke. But yeah, like, it's going to be brown,

but it's like, again, what are you going to do? You're going to trade them to, like, say, again, Indiana for, don't want to step on our next segment, but maybe one of their centers, a few more. Well, how about this? How about our previous segment? How about Philly? Would you trade Brown for Simmons plus stuff?

How does that sit? Like, let it wash around. your mouth a little bit, like chew on it. I just think Jalen Brown is so much fucking better than Benson. Like, I just don't even think they're comparable players. If you tell me Philly's going to throw

in picks for the right to do so, give me a bunch of picks and some young guys and some this. Like, because to me, now, I'm the blockbuster maker if I'm Boston. It's not you. You're not the blockbuster maker here. You're freaking trying to poach

one of the best wings in the league for a role player. No, I'm going to need a shit ton of stuff to make that. But of course, if you're Philly, that's a no-brainer. And that's another reason to consider making a trade if you're Boston is the position you would be in in these deals. You have the most coveted type of player in the entire league, these big wings who can create a guy like Jalen Brown,

who, I mean, really, as we're talking about, the reason you would trade him is not because he has some glaring flaw in his game. it's because of this kind of extracurricular fit and culture type stuff. It's the fact that the last time Boston was good, Jalen Brown was at a completely different level of standing in a way that it just kind of made sense for him to be a role player. Now that he's grown beyond that, it makes sense that you would want to at least investigate

what that means in a potential trade, what he could mean to another team because all he means to us is kind of being okay, pretty good, aiming for middle seed at best kind of club, which I think the South Dakota, have higher aspirations than that. And also, and also, like, again, at the bang the Simmons point home,

Jalen Brown is the antithesis. It's not impossible to imagine how he fits on any team. He shows up and his role, what he brings to the table is defined. It's not context dependent. It's not like, oh, I need to pair him with a stretch big and a one who could take pull-up threes. And, you know, it's like, no, no,

it doesn't matter what my roster construction is. Jalen Brown shows up. He fits. He starts. He contributes. He's a good damn player. So, yeah. Well, to that point, like, would you not rather Jalen Brown if you're the Nets than Ben Simmons

in this theoretical James Hardin scenario? Like, what do we think about a Celtics team with Hardin? Ah, Celtics. Heated him. Rob Williams, the Time Lord. And the Nets with Jalen Brown. Kyrie Irving, his good buddy, presumably. I have no idea.

Celtics have proven that they're never trading for a star who has the option to leave their organization because they have no faith that anybody ever wants to be there. Yeah, I guess this scenario would assume like sign and trade over the offseason. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. The emotional baggage with all this stuff is hilarious.

Like, would any of these guys want to play with Kyrie again? Do the Sixers have it in them to do another big trade with the Celtics after what happened with Tatum? Fultz. Like, there's a lot going on in the background here. Yeah. I don't know. And also, to my earlier point, I do think, like, if Brown is on the market, I wonder if that just appreciates the Simmons market that much more to all the reasons that you guys pointed out, like he can defend. He's an easy fit on a lot of teams. He's the type of player you want. For the record, guys, I'd be trading Tatum if I was them and not Brown.

Interesting. Why is that? Because, again, the whole, my signature move is a fade away from 20 feet away. Like, that's my signature shot in this league. I just don't believe in that. I just don't. Like, his, the whole Mamba mentality of it all is just not for me, personally, as a basketball thinker. It's just for me, like a guy whose best trait is a step-back 21-footer with a defender

draped all over him. To me, that's not. that's somebody like that has to be brick glass in case of emergency. That's like basically I have LeBron and so therefore, Kyrie, you can be the best version of yourself. We give you the ball literally explicitly to do that one thing that you're good at doing. You know, and LeBron, because he's one of the greatest that's ever done it, manages literally everything else on this team.

Everything else is managed by one guy. You get to come and do that one thing. Like you potato him in that type of situation. All right, cool, for sure. But, you know, save for that, I'm riding with Jalen Brown. I don't know that I'm fully ready to go down this road yet, but just in terms of like the framework of the deals you should make, you should make the trades with like involving the players who everyone else is higher on than you are.

Right. Like if you think the world, everyone thinks the world of Jason Tatum and you don't, I mean, there's a lot to explore there. Right. Guys, I'm going to zag here, though. Like, I'm going to hand over the cue to Rob. What? Yeah, I almost feel like this is a situation where, like,

I think the failure has been surrounding these guys with the right type of players. Like, to Waz's point earlier, like, yeah, they do need an adult in the room. They do need someone to take the reins in terms of leadership. But at the same time, like, the irony, the tragic irony of this team is that they pearl clutched all these draft picks built for the long road, like kind of- tragic for you? Oh, heaven for me. But like, you look at some of these recent picks, like Aaron Neesmith and Peyton Pritchard and

Romeo Langford. Robert Williams is the third. Our guy, Time Lord, 27th overall was kind of incredible. But, like, there's a lot of hit and misses. Then you see, like, oh, yeah, they traded Langford for Thibald. And, like, they traded away the Desmond Bain pick. And you're just like those type of guys, like, if you just get those two guys in your situation, I wonder if this team is just in competition for our top four seed in the east already. And like, that, like, it's hard to overcome that, but at the same time, it provides hope that, like, maybe if you just get a couple of these right, you could actually just build around your two pillars that everyone seems to want on their teams.

I just can't believe you would leave us like this. Like, you just made me a moderator of the Q forum and got the hell out of there. Yeah. Sorry, buddy. All right. Let's move along here to a team that we referenced earlier. The Indiana Pacers are looking to blow it up slash maybe not. there's some conflicting evidence of that.

As we were recording this, someone had a conversation with Herb Simon, who was 87 years old, longest 10-year-owner in the league. He suggested that he is not game for a rebuild, which you would probably assume just given that bioblast that just gave for him.

But there were reports earlier at the very least that they're looking for conversations, willing to talk about Caraselvert, willing to talk about Sabonis and Miles Turner. I think it does beg the question that we've been having for a while now, longer than Ben Simmons even. If you were to split up

Demontos a bonus a bonus and Miles Turner was, who would you deal and who would you keep? I mean, if I'm the Pacers, obviously I'm keeping Miles Turner. I'm keeping the huge

seven-footer who's been basically in the defensive play of the year category for about three to four years now, stretches you to three point land. Yeah, Miles Turner is who I'm going to keep because, again, his game is so scalable. Like, you put him in any context, it's going to work, right? Like, no matter what type of ball dominant players, like, look, I think what people get confused, It's because he doesn't do the DHO stuff.

He doesn't do the sort of, you know, the elbow work that Sabonis does. And it's cute, right? In a game when you watch it, it's like, oh, that's pretty. That's like basketball skill. But to what end? Like, what does making Sabonis the focal point of your team do for you? 37 wins? So while I guess it looks good and it probably takes more skill or whatever,

but functionally, when you're trying to build a team that matters, rim protection and stretchiness at the five position, you really can't ask for much more in today's NBA, except for, of course, that third level of it, which is destroying switches, which while he's not Porzingis level, terrible at it, Miles Turner, he's not at the Ait level. Obviously, he's not, you know, Yokic

or some of the best guys at killing the switches. Well, let's talk about the scalability, because although we can't ask more of Miles Turner than being a stretch big who's also a defensive player of the year candidate. I think he would ask more than that. And so that's kind of the question for me is, are you willing to expand Miles Turner's offensive role into what he wants it to be? Because he's made very clear what kind of player,

what kind of role he envisions for himself in this article with Jared Weiss of the Athletic, as bad as candid as anyone can be in the middle of a season as far as wanting more than they have. if you don't feel great about that proposition, I don't know how great you can feel about the idea that he's going to be super engaged and super thrilled about playing whatever role you actually want him to play, you know? Well, what is his next level here?

Because I almost feel like he has risen in value and risen in our estimation, in particular this conversation of Sabonis versus Turner, because he's doing less, he's playing more of a programmatic style because you want him to both protect rim and you want him to shoot threes. I don't know if I want that other stuff. And so I wonder if like you're trading for him. Maybe you're actually trading for the bad stuff. And this is actually

the role he should be playing no matter what. I think, man, I think what it comes down to is winning. When you're on a team that gets 43 wins at best and subonis is sucking up possession after possession, like it's easy to look around and be like, for what, for who, for why? What is the point of this. Like, if Sabonis was producing, you know, that, the type of office that they were doing pre-Carlow, right, with Sabonis being so heavily involved, those were producing 50 win, 55 win teams, second round of the playoffs, knocking on the door conference finals, and Miles Turner was a part of those important teams, important games.

I think it's hard to say anything about it, but when you win in 38 games a year and this is the dude who y'all threw y'all lot in and he made that fluky ass all star team so people are kissing his ass all over the place it's easy to look around and say i mean really this is the best we could do i think i could do better i like i understand that impulse that's why we get to herb simon in this because if if what he wants is a championship level team i think miles turner is more your guy than subonises i'm not even totally sold that turner is that guy but i think he has a better shot of being a big on a championship team. If your goal is being pretty good, I think it's, I think it's pretty easy to build a pretty good team around Sabonis. And frankly, I think this team is probably pretty good,

if not for being constantly injured and losing a bunch of close games. Like, I think this is a pretty solid team anchored around Sabonis. It's just, is that, is that really what you want? Toaz's point? Is this really what we're aiming for? And then I guess the question is, what team is aiming for that? Like, who is out there at like trading for Sabonis with the hope of just like aspiring to the middle. Like I can't even think of a single team that operates like the Pacers do. The Knicks wouldn't even do that. They're the typical answer for this question.

So I wonder if it's just more a question of like who's willing to pay more and you're maybe willing to pay more for Turner because like you mentioned like he seems to be the prototypical center you want on a very good team. Like I almost wondered not to keep throwing the nets in every conversation. But like the nets would be perfect for him because he wouldn't be. in a featured role, but he would do everything that they need, particularly on the defensive ends. They wanted to be particularly cruel, Brooklyn.

I wonder if, like, a Kyrie Irving for Miles Turner plus stuff would make a lot of sense for both sides. I suspect they would hope for more. Which side? From the net side. Like, if they're going to disrupt their start dynamic, I would think they would want more than Miles Turner. But all of this big stuff aside,

I think what's kind of quietly a problem for me with the Pacers is Carus Levert doesn't really work with any of these guys. And so whatever the outcome is, and again, maybe the outcome is they trade nobody as, you know, is kind of a Pacer's custom. Whatever the outcome is, if they're really negotiating on, you know, Turner or Sabonis or who should we deal, I would try to find a taker for Carus Leverett. I think he, you know, could help a lot of other teams, but the chemistry with those bigs doesn't really work. And I don't really see him as being like a complete pairing with Malcolm Brogden at all. Yeah, he's such a, he's such a, just a straight up one-on-one bit of a gunner type. And, you know, I'm not here to hate on gunners, but you got to be at least mildly efficient

if that's what you're going to make your only contribution. And throughout his career, he's never really shown himself to be an efficient scorer, right? So if all you do is score and you're doing it inefficiently, it's tough. Would this conversation be different last year when you had Nate Bjorken, like really leaning into Subonis as like an offensive hub. And this year, obviously, things have been completely different. Rick Carlisle's in there. And now it seems like he's going away from that Subonis offense, as was mentioned.

And no surprise here. Malcolm Brognan is playing well. And he's like the only guy you don't hear talk about like the Pacers want to get rid of. Not surprising that like Carlis would gravitate to the gritty, like, heady smart point guard on the roster. Like, do you think we would think more of Subonis? if this was last year or if they had a coach in there

that would lean into his skill set. I know I wouldn't. The realities are what they are with him. It's still hard to envision a conference finals or better team where he is your best player. That has been the case even when he was an all-star. Or not even just when he's your best player.

Like if even, like, if you put him in a role, the Vucovic role on the Bulls or, you know, put him in the, a Montrez role on the Wizards, right? Like, is it mildly better? It's kind of better, but like in the playoffs, so bonus is the opposing center,

wings, eyes light up. Throwing that fool and pick and roll, going to work, eating them up, period. He's a defensive target in the playoffs against the best wings, the best teams, the best players. So, like, yeah, no, the same. skies is the roof with Subonis

when it comes to playoff achievements. I like the Wizards as a trade partner, though. Like maybe the fit isn't like perfect, but they're the type of team that could use the talent upgrade and like worry about the fit later. They do have like a lot of stuff they can just throw out the basers.

I don't know if it's the type of stuff that they're hoping to get for a two-time All-Star and Sabonis. But like that does feel like as good of a fit as you can kind of come up with. All right. Let's move along here to a team on the opposite at end of the spectrum,

I'm a team that's expected to be competing for titles and unfortunately has not this far. I'm talking about the Lakers, of course. Number four is what the hell are the Lakers going to do? Because they are very active in the trade rumor game right now. Unfortunately, I don't know how any of it works unless you need to get rid of Russell Westberg. Just for like, just the sake of refreshing here, the only two contracts on the roster, which are not max contracts or minimum contracts are Tailing Horton Tucker and Kendrick Nunn, who I believe hasn't played a regular season game.

Is that right? And THT, of course, is in so many tweet rumors, which the veracity of which are like, who knows. But to the point where like Kyle Kuzma had a pretty juicy tweet where he's like, here we go again, quote treating THT rumor. Rob, what do we do here? Like, can I guess the better question is can you do anything here? See, that's the question. Who on this team has real trade value, even contracts aside?

Like who are the players that other teams are jumping to get? THC with trade value, like THC. THT. THHT has trade value only if you're a Lakers fan of front office person. Like if you're just an objective viewer of NBA basketball, you think this guy's like an incredible asset? Like, really? Have I been watching the same Lakers?

LeBron is trying his damnedest, though. on Twitter. THT scores 19 points. And LeBron's responses, he is so special. Three exclamation points. I am kind of a THG truther, though. Like,

I think we went through this kind of arc with Kyle Kuzma, too, where it was like he became wildly overrated because Lakers fans thought it was just like the second coming of James Worthy or whatever. I do think there is like something with THT. The problem is I just don't know what exactly

and he's already getting paid like a decent amount of money. Well, hold on. I talked to some Lakers people. people last year. And I was like optimistic people. And I was like, um, like, what's Tht's like, what's the best version of a THT? And they was like basically an elevated Lou Williams at peak Lou Will. And I was like, okay, I don't think so.

I just, I don't see that. It's like 20 point per game score and, you know, pick and roll, maestro maneuver. He hasn't shown that at all. all, in my opinion, at all. That's why, to me, it feels like the Lakers are bound to shuffle some deck chairs around, try to spruce the place up a little bit, and hope for the best with the buyout stuff. That seems like kind of where all this is headed to me. What's Mike Mascala up to these days?

Does you want a repeat bid? I do think that's the level player. To me, the Lakers basically, they got to prey on somehow getting, you know, And this is for the playoffs, like a Richard Jefferson in 2016 type, right? Like, who was like, wasn't the, he used to be an incredible wing defender, but he was like decent enough and was making enough shots, right? Like somebody was just like, okay. Malik Monk on the wing defending is that's not okay.

Like, you know, you're going to get bulldozed in the playoffs with those. with the wing rotation that they currently got. And even though those guys can shoot, which the Lakers' offense has been sputtering as of lately, like, if Russ is not going to guard people, like, I don't know what they do. Like, this is just bad. I do think one of the reasons we're probably not going to see anything super

dramatic, though, is their heads are back up above water just enough and the standings don't look quite so brutal for the Lakers where they're in 10th, 11th place in the West, where there's just enough reason to talk yourself into, oh, let's just wait till LeBron gets a full month with these guys, gets two months, give them until the deadline to figure it out. Also, didn't you see AD and Russ say there's nothing to worry? We don't take this stuff serious to the playoffs.

We're just a playoff guys. Playoffs. Like, all right, Russ, you have, like, can you remember the last time Russell Westbrook played well in the playoffs? It was the first four games in 2016. He's been awful since. Two presidential administrations ago. First four games of the Western Conference Finals, I should say, in 2016.

He was excellent. Since then, go look up the numbers. He's shooting something like 36%. He's just terrible in the playoffs since those first four games against the Warriors, which, you know, they famously went up 3-1 and, you know, the rest is history. Guys, I hate to tell you, I'm going to zag again. Have they been like that bad lately? The schedule has been

Charmin ass soft lately. I will admit that. But getting LeBron back has helped a lot. And like, I know you joke, Rob, but like having LeBron available and in gear and later in the season when he cares more is probably the difference between winning a title and not for like the entire league, right?

And the defense has perked up a little bit too. Like they're finally starting to look like a functional defense again which that might be all they need to at least be competitive. Right. Now, would it be better if they just had stuff instead of Russell Westbrook? Obviously. And I do think the question that they'll face at the deadline is one that's probably unanswerable is like, can they get anybody to take Russ? Can they click Russ into literally anything else?

Can me? No. No. That was kind of the problem, the other problem with that deal construction, other than the fit, other than the defense, other than all the Russ questions, when you trade for Russell Westbrook, it is a definitive answer. It is like, this is our guy

because once you get him, it's tough to move on from that versus if you had all those role guys. Although he has been traded the past three off seasons. But I'm saying within the season, like, I don't know if you're comparing deal constructions for Russell Westbrook versus

you know, packaging KCP and Kuzma, oh, we got buddy healed or whatever we had. just seems a little more feasible. Let me ask you this. Would you trade Russell West for John Wall? Oh, you're thinking. I love it.

I'm trying to think when the last time I saw John Wall play basketball was. Yeah, who has more years left on their deal? I think they end at the same time. Man, I'd probably have to think about it, man, because just, Russ just, man, it's the past. It's like for some people, it's the bricks. For me, it's the passing. that's just so sloppy and never like anticipatory.

And just like, he's just so, it's like his only tool is a sledgehammer. Sometimes you need a scalpel. You know what I'm saying? And Russ just is like, no, I sledgehammer every single situation, every single time. And like the fact that he can't dribble past anybody anymore. If you notice, his mode of getting to the basket, I was just backing people down. Like, there's no, like, all right, I'm handling the rock, somebody who's, you know, slightly not Kawhi Leonard is on me.

And so I'm just going to dribble past him and get to the bat. Like, no, he can't dribble past nobody. He's not great at playmaking. He can't shoot. He's still decent of transition. I'll give him that. I would have to think about John Wall just because his reputation is legacy and playmaking. you know, back when he was leading the league

and assists on corner threes and shit like that. Like, he was always an elite distributor. So that's why I would think about it. But like, I mean, come on. For the record, though, on the hardware sledgehammer versus scalpel debate, I would subscribe to a channel that's just Russell Westbrook

destroying things with a sledgehammer. I would definitely watch that. Last one here. Like, do you think you could talk the kings into doing some version of the buddy healed trade for Russell Westbrook? Are the Kings desperate enough to where they're like,

well, we'll get the gate receipts and maybe put a little pep in our steps. Alvin Gentry loves Russell Westbrook. He loves those gritty veterans who know what they're doing. No. Do you think you could talk them? No, I'm seeing a lot of shaking hands.

Absolutely not. How does, like, their wing rotate, their guard rotation is already cluttered. Yeah. And the problem is that Halliburton, and Fox. These guys need the rock in their hands. So what we do is we put the ultimate can do nothing else

if they don't have the rock in their hand player in there. But he's Russell Westbrook, man. Come see him play. Come out to the Golden One Center tomorrow. Sacramento. Aggregating the contracts would also be tough as I'm looking at this. It would have to be like Buddy Heald plus Mo Harclis plus, who knows? Soutreland.

Buddy Hield and Mo Harkless would be good. fits on the Lakers, honestly. But when Mohawkless start for the Lakers at that point? I want Mohawkless truth, man. Shouts to, Shouts to Queens, St. Johns, man. Legend. It's bleak.

Well, one of the players who is getting talked about in relation to the Lakers, perhaps as like some sort of Hail Mary, I don't really know how it works, is one Jeremy Grant. And I do think this brings us to question number five on our list, which is which realistically available player could use a change of scenery. I mentioned Grant just because he's in a lot of trade rumors. He has one more year on his deal. Seems like he had the one year where he proved himself

to be able to do more than his role. And now he's being shoved right back into a role. Well, I mean, apparently dozens of teams are calling the Pistons every week, according to Shams report, asking about Jeremy Grant. Dozens of them. Which means to suggest that maybe he's better off

just playing the role he was in Denver. But I guess more credit to him for being on a shitty team last year and scoring like 20 points. I'm sure that was like a fun like vacation for him. I mean, to me, he's a homeless man's Jalen Brown, right? Like, he's not as good on the ball, but he has on the ball juice.

He's not as good as shooter, but he has to be guarded out to three. And he's probably a better wing defender than Jalen Brown is. Or he was back in the Denver days. So, you know, I think he's somebody, again, who you throw him in on any team that has postseason aspirations and want to make some real noise. I think he fits in Atlanta. I think he fits anywhere that needs post, excuse me, not post, wing defense, and, you know, not going to be a complete SIV one-way player. He's not a one-way player.

I know we throw two-way around. It's like, it's kind of lost its meaning. these days, but I think Jeremy Grant is the type of player we're talking about a role player who is you know, not a minus on either one of the ends of the court and on defense, he's clear and utter plus.

He's a star in his role. Yes, I like to say in the NBA. Coach Verrier. Exactly. What do we think about Grant? Is there like a natural landing spot for him? Do you think Detroit should try to to trade him. I should mention that he's currently hurt right now with Torin Ligman's in his thumb,

but I think the assumption is he's going to be back before the trade deadline. So he should be there for a team if you really wanted to make a push. I would be kind of waiting for the knockout offer if I was Detroit. Like I don't see any urgency on their part to trade him in part. If you're looking at that roster, there's just not a lot of like functional infrastructure for Cade Cunningham to develop into without grant there. So you're leaving a pretty big void, develop implementally speaking, if all of a sudden you're just going to pull out this guy who, as you said, has kind of scaled up his offense to absorb a lot of usage, absorb a lot of shots. Not in a way that's going to win you games, but in a way that can at least simulate a more workable NBA team.

Let me throw this out there. What do you think about the Chicago Bulls? The Bulls are clearly like an accelerated part of their trajectory, like they're better than they thought they would be, currently second in the Eastern Conference. You got a lot of veterans, you want to prove to Zach Levine to return to you over in the offseason. Maybe shore up the defense, make sure that you don't have any fall off from your good start on that end to earlier in the season.

And for Detroit, you get like Kobe White in picks. You need that money, though. You got to match the Jeremy Grant's salary is the problem. It's true. It's true. Might be tough. Yeah, you probably got to get a third team involved.

But, you know, just in a vacuum, Jeremy Grant is perfect for what the Bulls have going, right? He doesn't need to be ball dominant. He will be terrific in transition, very switchable guy. I think he would be fantastic for the Bulls, 100%. And again, like, you know, the thing about having Vouch out there is if you start, like, if you put Jeremy Grant next to Caruso, next to Lonzo, that type of defense, swarming, very switchy between those three guys.

Like, now you got something, right? Where because those guys are so switchable and so credible on defense, like the paint isn't being completely just besieged at all times, right? Like, you got credible defense in front of these ball handlers all the time. Instead of, you know, picking roll comes and it's just. Vince meat being made of your big rotation. So, yeah, he would be an incredible fit for the Bulls. I think he could be an attractive fit for a lot of teams. Like half the teams in the league could talk themselves into, as you were saying,

was big athletic, good perimeter defender. The Lakers, everybody, man, the Clippers. They all need it. The Hawks. Yeah. I think you can get there for the Bulls in terms of salary. You know, Derek Jones Jr., Kobe White, Troy Brown Jr., and Picks. I guess the question is like for the bull specifically.

Like is he just duplicating what you're hoping Patrick Williams will do for the team eventually? But he's out for the season. Yeah. It's interesting though. I think you're right though. You like you could see him on the Wizards. You could see him on the Hornets. A lot of these teams can use a player like great.

I mean, the Hornets would be the most fun option, honestly. Just put him in some sort of like small ball five kind of death lineup in the Hornets to close out games and run with Lonzo. That'd be fun. Anybody else here that you guys can think of? that could realistically make it onto the market, could use a change of scenery, a guy that's either on a languishing team like Detroit or just has fallen out of favor

on a different team. Can I ask you guys a question on that front? What happened to Mitchell Robinson? Is he still around? Back in a New Orleans, Noel, like, you know. Is he under the Brooklyn Bridge at this point? I know a lot. Nerlands looks pretty springy these days, man.

He's really, yeah. It's like, I'm, like, impressed by what he's, been doing these days. I understand. You know, Tibbs don't want to play these young cats. He don't have time for it.

I was talking about it on the Sunday show. It's like that was the ultimate death knell for John Wall. Like, you think, not John Wall, excuse me, for Kimber Walker. Like,

you think Tibbs would rather be playing quickly than a proven veteran all-star, like, no. The fact that he's playing this young guy over you shows, but I think that's the same with Mitchell Robinson. Like, tips don't want to play these young dudes.

He has no, interest in them. Well, I have interest in them. I'm wondering if there's another spot for him somewhere in the league where he can be a starting center because I haven't forgotten him contesting threes, his ability to anchor a potential at least average or better defense, especially if we're talking about teams like the hornets who like they just need a center in the worst way who is not Mason Plumley. Right.

And also another guy to think about who I think we've talked about is Eric Gordon. Yep. Save him. Please rescue him from that. Although they've turned it around of recent Yes, Rockets fans, I know you guys went on like a 10-game winning streak after we predicted that you would never win again.

So you can think they've lost, yeah. You can thank us for the reverse jinks. But yeah, Eric Gordon, definitely. For a lot of the same reason that we said with Jeremy Grant, it's like this guy's a quality defender, hell of a shooter, can soak up possessions, ball handling is a great veteran type of locker. chemistry kind of guy.

So yeah, Eric Gordon, teams should be, you know, ringing their phones off the hook for that guy. He dropped 32 on the Hawks the other day, looked every bit prime Eric Gordon. Like, you're not going to get that every night, but if you want a veteran off your bench or a guy who can plug in as a fifth starter,

you could do a lot worse. Celtics? Hell yeah. Fit right in there as a guy who grimace and, like, maybe yell at your star. I like that. Well, speaking of the Hawks, I mean, another guy that's popping up

a trade room is his Cam Reddish for all the reasons we've talked about on 50 different podcasts about like has all this upside maybe doesn't have a clear role in the Hawks or maybe he does have a clear role he just doesn't want to play that clear role. If you're the Hawks are you looking to move him 13 and 14 right now so you could use a little bit of a Joel? I don't know. Is there is there a construction even where it's like Mitchell Robinson and stuff for Cam Reddish or is that like that's not enough probably? So like the Hawks have had so many injuries to their wing rotation this year, which I think has hurt them. But, but, you know, somehow they managed to be third in the, in the league in

offensive efficiency, which put some respect on Trey Young's name, please. Like, please, this man is clearly an all-star, clearly one of the best players in the NBA. The defense has been completely, it's just been a shit show. And I think that starts at the center position, but whatever. Cam British, like, I just, I'm selling high on Cam British if I'm them. You know, stop me. When is that?

When is selling high? I guess there would be two years from me. Right now. No, sell right now. Just right now. Because you can still talk people into, yo, he's six-fitt seven. He's shown some, you know, some stuff on the ball.

He's allegedly a shooter, even though his two-pointers at 38%. Like, listen, this guy has potential. He was, you know, he was right on the Zion level at Duke and all of that. Like, I'd be lying to teams and get a real wing in there, man. Get, like, you should be calling Detroit about Jeremy Grant. You should be calling teams about, you know, wings, man. That's interesting. Grant for Reddish as, like, the basis of a trade.

I don't mind that. I think the issue would be, you'd be kind of like punting on Gallo essentially at that point. Like, you'd have to really restructure your, I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm just saying it's a more considerable construction job. Have he seen gallo out there, bro? It's rough. He's got cement shoes these days on, man. Like, it is...

I mean, he had cement shoes before. I don't know what he's got. Right. Exactly. He's got an adamantium shoes or something dragging him down. All right, anybody else we could think of here? I mean, there's some kind of like roll guys floating around. The problem is, like, prying them from their teams.

Like, if we're blowing up the Pacers, is there another home out there for Justin Holiday, who I think could be solid for pretty much anybody? but that's also the reason they would never trade him probably. Justin Holiday is going to be playing for 20 more years in this league. Like they'll shut down the entire league for COVID. Holiday will be out there suiting up for the Pacers. Guy is a legend in his own right.

Let's move on to our last question here. Which team needs to do something notable for the deadline? We could probably mention a couple teams that we already talked about. The team I want to just put on the table here is New Orleans, who suffered yet another Zion setback. It would seem unlikely at this point not to put words into the organization's mouth that he plays this year,

considering we're already pretty deep into the season and the standings are really kind of closing in on them. They're really kind of bearing them a little bit. They're 8 and 21 right now. On the other hand, David Griffin is probably GMing for his job or at the very least needs to prove to Zion that there is something to come back to people.

of this season in long term. And so, I don't know, they're in a weird position where, like, they could trade away certain guys in order to kick the can down the road, maybe get some more picks in the asset chamber and take a big swing at someone in this off season, or they could just trade for some help right now, maybe trade for a guy like Jeremy Grant, who will just raise your ceiling, prove to ownership that you can get into the play in game and then you live to fight another day. So I think, like, in one way, they're the most depressing team at the deadline, but they're also the most interesting team because they got to do something. They wreak of

desperation, and so they have to figure something out here. If we're already trying to figure out how Zion and Jonas Valen-Tunas fit together, not to get in the way at the parlor game of trading Jeremy Grant to every team, but are we really trying to squeeze Jeremy Grant in there too? Valentunis has been good, though.

He's been one of the bright spots. Absolutely. You're worried that he and Zion don't fit together? I'm worried they need some perimeter players. Right. Herb Jones, baby. He's back and better than ever.

He could be the new Jeremy Grant if we're really going down that road. I just, to me, if Zion's not on the floor, you know, and again, I tend to be niless about some of these stuff with New Orleans. What's the point? Like, who cares? Like, make a trade at the deadline. Do whatever you want. If this kid's not playing and what you're doing isn't centered around. him and maximizing whatever it is he's going to give you.

What is the point of all of this? Like, it's just seems so dire, man. I just remember when like, shit, yeah, I remember the summer that they traded for, they traded AD and they drafted Zion. And I remember seeing, I saw, I saw a Griff at the Chicago camp, draft combine, excuse me, then I saw him at Summer League and he was the bell of the ball.

He had just, quote, quote, fleeced the Lakers for all of these picks and he got a generational talent and Zion. And it was just like, oh, Griff, you, oh, man, you fucking, you stuck it to clutch. Griff, you're fucking doing it. Like, it was just like, all of this positivity

around Griffith and, like, just the endless possibility. and New Orleans was going to make the playoffs this season. I'm talking about Zion's rookie season because they were these vets. And Zion was this and it was just going to be so great. Luca Bratsey was waiting outside to shake his hand. And then, you know, to see what it's come to now, man, just a short three years later,

where New Orleans seems as rudderless and as aimless as any team in the entire league. And Zion can't stay on the floor for the life of him. It's tough. It's crazy. It's crazy how just the circumstances change so fast in the NBA. Because I just remember Griff's being like he was like he was on a cloud. Everybody.

Media. Everybody was just like, wow, Griff fucking did it. Got all of that shit for AD. You know, he's got Zion coming in. He's putting a great roster around him. He's doing all of this shit. Griff is the man. How bleak do you want to get here?

His job, bro. Yeah. How bleak do we want to get here? Because I think there's like an actual conversation to be had. of whether or not the Pelicans should trade Zion. If we think that he's going to be difficult down the road, that he's going to ask for trades, even after he signs an extension, et cetera,

if you're worried, and I think this is another conversation that's ancillary to this, like if you're worried about just giving him the full max this off-season, considering his injury history, like, wouldn't it be better to sell high? I guess this would still be selling high? And, like, trade him for a bunch of stuff, just let the Knicks or another team handle him

and you just build around Ingram plus whatever. We went straight past Galaxy Brain into like full nihilism. Like that's the move you make if you think global warming is going to destroy the earth in 30 years. But at the same time, Rob, I don't know in the sense that I think Vary has a point. But to me it has to be a team like Orlando, right? Who's like, look, I'm not giving you my picks

but I'll give you Jalen. I'll give you the preacher man. I'll give you Greg Anthony's kid. I'll give you all of my young dudes. I can't trade my picks for a dude who never is on the floor.

But if you're a team with a bunch of young guys who have shown some level of promise and you're like, look, you can have all of them and I'll sign up for the lottery ticket of Zion. but like you can't trade future picks for Zion Williamson. That's absurd. All of those young guys collectively have won three fewer games than the Zionless Pelicans have.

That we can't name. No, if you're trading Zion, you're getting everything. Like I want Mo Bamba. I want that fucking two-way G league player that I have no idea who it is on the Orlando Magic. I want everything you have plus more. Like you're getting the biggest trade package in history. you're getting like a 20-something potential generational talent. You can't construct a roster around Zion Williamson

and say I have no draft picks ever again in the future. Like that's because he doesn't play. What if you're the Knicks though? Like I do think a team like the Knicks who feels confident that he would stick around would be more willing to do that. I think this is like a much more realistic possibility than people might.

I think that's what Zion's people sure want people to think for sure. Yeah, that's definitely true. The problem is that sticking around isn't enough. Like what you're seeing with the Pelicans, like the whole conversation around them would be very different if they were like a plucky slightly overachieving team with Zion on the floor.

But the fact that he's not devastates an entire organization. It puts everyone's jobs at risk. It makes all of your players look over-exposed. It's just super dangerous when you have a player who's that good and can't play. And if you, I don't know why if you were another team, you would give up tons of stuff to walk into that. And at the same time, if you're the Pelicans, given what we know Zion can be when he does play,

I think it's too tantalizing to give it up. Yeah, Pelicans can't give him up. They're the freaking Pelicans. Like, you know, they're one of these teams that, like, there's no other way to get these kind of guys in their building, but to draft them and to re-sign them the rookie max extensions. They have to see this through. Like, sorry, Zion, we're holding your ass hostage.

It's not happening. Are any other teams on your guys' list? Like, is there any team that we haven't talked about or have talked about that, like, feels like they need to do something right now? No, I just related New Orleans note. You got, like, the report that New Orleans is filled in office for Jackson Hayes. Like, you know, you know when you're watching a game

and Stan Van Gundy or some other coach and be like, yo, you're open for a reason. That doesn't mean you should shoot it. Teams are going to hear this and say, he's on the market for a reason. why they didn't just pick Darius Garland and traded him for what was Nikola Alexander Walker and Jackson Hayes

just befuddles me to this day. Just take the better player. Like you're rebuilding, you want young guys with higher upside to grow alongside your Transformer talent. God damn, it's so stupid. It's just like, that is Galaxy Brain to me.

Anyway, any other teams? I mean, Portland to me is the big one. We've talked about them a lot. You know, last week's show especially. Otherwise, I kind of have my eye on washing. as a team where things are starting to go a little sour there. They've won one of their last six games. It was in overtime against the Pistons.

They have looked very bad. And what was an average or kind of above average team on both sides of the ball to start, now is just like kind of sputtering well below that line. And you're staring down Bradley Beals for agency. We don't have to get into that whole thing. Like the Beal conversation has been pretty exhausting. And I don't mean to be the guy pressing the big red trade Bradley Beal button every couple months. but maybe you should trade Bradley Beale if you're Washington.

On a smaller scale, I think Milwaukee needs to look at some possibilities because as much as I like Janus as a five for the playoffs, Boogie Cousins and Bobby Portis is not going to get you through the regular season. Yeah, you need somebody there. Are the Spurs complete irrelevance on purpose? Should they just like, that's purposeful, right? Like, they don't need to hit the trades. Like, they want to be this irrelevant and unnecessary.

They don't want to go mainstream. They're like 1980s indie rock band. They don't want to sell out. Where can I make the bet that they're going to jump the Blazers and the Kings for the 10th playing spot? They're just going to kind of swim in there. Nobody's going to really care or notice, but that's what's going to happen. Yeah, that's off the board. That's definitely going to happen.

All right. Just before we wrap up here, we got a little bit of breaking news that came across the wire as we were recording. Danny Aange, the guy who we were just saying left the Celtics in an unavailable position because of the bad draft picks he collected over there. He is back, baby. He's now being hired by the Utah Jazz as an alternate governor, no idea what that means, and CEO kind of have an idea what that means. The next line is probably the most important one. Aange will oversee basketball and Justin Zanick will remain as GM. So functionally, he's taking over basketball operations and will kind of be above Zanick in the hierarchy.

Was, are you happy to see your guy who built the Celtics to the point they are now back in the game? Look, Danny Age is a good NBA GM, right? I would never put him in the category of some of the all-time worst like Isaiah Thomas in New York and, you know, just some of the other guys you've seen be horrible GMs. Nobody could ever accuse him of being bad. He was good with the Celtics. He just wasn't no damn world beater, genius, savant, expert that certain media types

shot to make him out to be. I just thought that was overdone. As soon as he left the Celtics, everybody knew him and Ryan Smith for buddies, and he was probably earmarked for that job over in Utah. So this is just a fulfillment of that. He's been good, you know, as a Celtics GM. I think he'll do good in this job for a team that's already basically a contender. So, you know, shout to Danny Ains, good for his family to get to move back to Utah and, you know, retire in peace.

It's kind of an interesting trend, too, of what's been going around the league a little bit lately, which is if you have a general manager you like, but there's someone on the market you like better, just hire somebody over them to in this case be the alternate governor, which hopefully, as you mentioned, Justin, we'll get some clarity on what exactly that means. But in the meantime, I would like to submit my request to be alternate governor of this podcast, please. That has been denied. If the jazz ever gets subpoenaed to Congress, y'all, they'll send Ains instead of Ryan Smith. I do think this is a good fit for Aange. Like, the one thing that we talked about when he left the Celtics was that, like, maybe the player relationship side wasn't like, where the star game wasn't really his strong suit. And I do think he had shown a knack at the very least for certain deals,

maybe not drafting. Although the drafting thing is probably a little bit more mixed. He did draft both Tatum and Brown, who, as we say, are kind of foundational players. But I think this allows him being in a smaller market where you're probably not going to attract stars anyway. If anything, you're going to try to keep the stars you do have in-house. I think it makes sense to like,

apply that to a team like the jazz. Like those type of skills in this market seem to mix a little bit better than they did in Boston. Well, there's a little bit of like getting the team together montage going on, but just for Utah Jazz ownership at this point because you've got Ryan Smith,

who obviously is overseeing the whole thing, majority governor of that team. You've got Dwayne Wade, who's basically been like a one-man player liaison to Donovan Mitchell, it sounds like. And then now you have an established, long-tenured general manager who's going to oversee,

you know, predictably basketball operations for you, you can see how those pieces fit together. The biggest question long term for the jazz is getting Donovan Mitchell to say. So it'll be interesting to see how Aang's particular skill set applies to that. On the one hand, like, you know, hasn't had a good track record this far. Gordon Hayward and Kyrie Irving being the two prime examples of them. But on the other hand, like they can pay Donovan Mitchell a lot of money. And so like maybe that's not as much of a calculus to do there when you're signing or trading for free agents outright.

and then they could leave a couple years later. So we'll see there. But let's wrap it up there. Thank you to Jonathan Kermra production. We'll be back next week, same time, same place. We'll see it.