The Ringer NBA Show - Solving the Chaotic Western Conference | Real Ones

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Logan is joined by The Ringer’s Rob Mahoney to discuss the increasingly chaotic Western Conference as the end of the regular season approaches. They break down which teams are serious contenders in the conference to make it to the NBA Finals, the potential playoff matchups, and the teams fighting for a spot in the Play-In Tournament (1:00). Finally, they close with their Real Ones of the Week (54:51). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Rob Mahoney Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league.

And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into OffGuard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here. No Roger today. He is taking his son on a recruiting visit. He's being a dad. So we, you know, we're going to welcome in the real ones, the real ones affiliate, Mr. Rob Mahoney, my homie. How you doing, Doc? Doing all right. How you doing, Logan? I'm doing good, man. So I took like a quick trip down to Los Angeles for something that I'm working on us coming on next week.

And I stopped by the office for a quick second. And I feel like that. like every conversation in the office centered around the Western Conference and who would win the Western Conference ultimately go to the finals. And it started out being a very simple conversation of, I think Denver will probably win it, right? And then another person goes, well, this team can beat Denver. And then that team goes, oh, but this team is fatally flawed in this respect. And then this team is fatally flawed in this respect. But this team can win if they get healthy, right? And this team is scary. You don't want to play them. But they are at an 11th seed somehow. in New York, but they can win five straight games and get it out of the plan,

and then you don't want to face them, right? I can see you with the yarn on the cork boards, across the walls of your hotel room as we speak. I was right at this point in the office, I was like Dennis Rodman in Last Dance. I was picking up anecdotes from right here, facilitating it to this person, taking their point, going to the other place.

It was great, man. It was a great display. But my first thing, first question to you, Rob, is if you were to construct a team to win the Western Conference in our Lord's year of 2023, if you were to construct a perfect team, how would you build it? And what team resembles that, what is it as the closest embodiment of the team that you have assembled that can win that Western Conference, Rob? Okay. So I don't think it's that different from what you would want in a typical playoff year,

right? Like, a lot of these qualities are going to be things that most playoff teams want. But I think given the chaotic atmosphere in the West, adaptability is probably the most important thing. Can you play different styles? Can you handle different matchups? Can you shape shift a little bit? And if you have that and you have the experience to keep your head on your shoulders amid those matchups and you have like a little bit of depth, at least like seven guys you can trust. And I think maybe the underrated part right now is like a coach you can trust, trust like pull the right levers. That's kind of where you're at.

But I would say the adaptability is the most important thing. And that's where it gets interesting, right? Because there's a lot of teams, as you're saying, that are theoretically adaptable. The Clippers are theoretically very adaptable. The Golden State Warriors theoretically can play big or can play small. Do we trust those things? I vary by the day. And I think what I trust more than that, more than that theoretical adaptability is,

I trust what the Denver Nuggets do on offense. And I think that's going to beat most of the teams. That's a boring answer for the number one seed. But I think they're there for a reason. I'm going to be honest with you. I don't watch very much Denver Nuggets, Denver Nuggets throughout the season. And I thought that I was terrible at my job,

which is still in play. But as more as I see or talk to people about the Denver Nuggets, I don't think their watchability undercuts the fact that they're so great. You get what I'm saying? Where people don't really watch a ton of them. Oh, sure. They are the top team for a reason. They have gotten,

they've had a great free agency. agency class over the summer. And then, you know, they have Michael Porter Jr. They have all these guys that are, you know, we forget the NBA season or the NBA season just go by so fast. You forget how like these, this young one's young team is still a young team, but have a pretty battle tested, right? Like they have, they have, they've, they've been through a lot and seen a lot.

But they're a team for me at least that at least league wide. This is the undercut. This is what I'm saying that that happened at the, at the office is right, where I just don't believe, I don't believe in their overall trajectory as a Western Conference team, only because they just haven't proven it on a year and out basis. We always see that they're a great regular season team, right?

And then they go into the postseason, and you're like, oh, no one's scared of this team at all. What makes this team different than the past Nuggets teams that we have seen that have had the flame outs or have just underperforming the post season over the last five, six years. I think the big one is just like being a little healthier than some of those teams.

And from that, you're getting the best season of Michael Porter Jr's career. You're getting Jamal Murray, who's a little bit more come and go in terms of where exactly he is with his various injuries. But then they also, like, Aaron Gordon has been such an important piece for them. There are huge questions. And like in some of these criteria that I'm listing, yes, they are very adaptable.

I think they have more experience, certainly, like teams like the Kings, in terms of like where they've been. in the playoffs. Like they've played in the Western Conference final. That's really meaningful. As far as the depth part, they're pretty spotty.

And as far as the coaching part, I think there's room for disagreement with what Michael Malone does sometimes. So what I'm saying is like even the number one team I would pick doesn't even check all these boxes. And that's how we get into this labyrinthine Western conference picture where it's like, okay,

we like the Nuggets, but what if they play this team? But do we think, they, honestly, they've barely played the Suns. in a way where we know anything about that matchup, like the first time they played, it was really close. The Sons didn't have KD then, and Devin Booker left like a couple minutes into that game.

The second time they played, no Booker, no Chris Paul, obviously no KD, the Sons get absolutely blown out. What does that mean? Probably nothing. They're going to play two more times before the end of the season,

Denver and Phoenix. I don't even know if they're going to show a lot in those games, because I'm sure they're expecting to play each other at some point in the postseason. Are they going to put any of their cards on the table? It's kind of impossible to say, like, what's going to happen in those games and what the nature of that matchup is,

those feel like the two most trustworthy contenders, and yet both are shallow, both have huge questions, both have knights, Phoenix included where their defense just like doesn't have it. It's very hard to trust anybody. It's interesting you brought up the Sons because the last time I saw you was, I believe King's Sons in Sacramento.

It was one of those games where Katie didn't play, Aidan didn't play, and it was one of those games in the first half where we're like, Oh, okay, this is, we thought we had the answers on the Phoenix. So I was like, oh, okay, this is a team that is veteran-led, has Chris Paul that could kind of just, especially against a team like the Kings, who was young and very inexperienced. Oh, okay, Chris Paul is going to lead them to a victory because he's just going to outsmart them, right? He's just going to literally just get them down the stretch. I think that at one point that the sons were up at like 12 at some point.

And then Chris Paul flops. and we think that, oh, that's just games and shit from Chris Paul. And then they get blown out of the building. Yeah, the beam was lit. The beam was lit that night for sure. The beam was lit. The beam was lit. We'll talk about the Kings in a second

because they also play a major role in this Western conference. But the Phoenix Suns are an interesting team because they've gone through so many transformations throughout the season. And you kind of even saw last night with how good they can be in spurts because, you know, they didn't play well throughout the night against the Timberwolves

and then all of a sudden you get a few shots from Kevin Durant who didn't play well but got the shots down the stretch and then you also had a good performance from Chris Paul down the stretch as well with a couple big shots. I still don't have a good read on the Phoenix Suns but I think that their ceiling is so high

that I can't quit them. How could you? How could you quit a team that Kevin Durant can have an underwhelming game and they still win against a playoff caliber opponent like the Wolves? That's what they've got. Devin Booker is that good.

Chris Paul can still contribute in those meaningful ways. I think what makes them interesting is maybe more than any of these other serious contenders we're going to be talking about. They put guys on the floor who you don't really have to guard very seriously. Like Josh Okie in the corner, Tori Craig on a lot of nights, like they're going to trot TJ Warren out there and see what he's got. Like the wolves, for example, in this game on Wednesday, they just put Carl Towns on those guys and said, you chill out. We're not too worried about it. And so in a way, the suns kind of facilitate their opponents being more adaptable, right? Like, they're giving you somewhere to hide. They're giving you somewhere to put your offense first gunner, like your big man who doesn't quite have a natural spot. They're allowing you to be yourself when you're on the floor. And what they're basically saying with the construction of their team is, we think we can beat you anyway. Like ultimately, we have Kevin Durant at the end of the day, we're going to default to him and Booker. We're going to run good action. We're going to run good action. We're going to layer stuff on top of each other and we're going to beat you. And they might be right.

No, because it's like the more, how should I say that? The sons are the team that the Nets, as previously constructed, wish they were, right? Not a lot of dysfunction, a lot of scoring. You know, like we have the three best players on the floor at all times. We are going to just beat you over the top. Like it doesn't matter what you do. We have the three best players. As long as we keep it close, we're probably going to win the game because we have three clutch players and three superstars, right?

That's basically how we're going to go out. Which is interesting to me is specifically with the KD trade is, one, his age and how that kind of plays into the bigger goals for the Phoenix Suns. Oh, yeah. And just got me thinking a lot about the Celtics and what you give up. to get what and how certain franchises are set up right because like the sons had to give up what they had to give up to get Kevin Durant yeah because if they didn't the current team probably wouldn't be the current team beyond this season and then I look at the the the Celtic situation who have you know built through their draft they have done a really great job with the two guys

that they have right there and it made me question of when do you trade for a superstar what is the perfect time to trade for a superstar. And the sons are going to feel this because no matter what they do, this is probably the year where they have to get it done. Because I just don't see, you know, Chris Paul is about to turn 38 years old. Katie is 34. Devin Booker is the young guy, but he's getting, he's, in terms of NBA miles, he's getting up there.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what is the perfect time to trade? for that star, right? Is it, I guess when it happens is when you get them is great, but we're seeing that KD is getting injured at a point, every couple. He's never just an old man injuries at this point, right? Yeah. Oh, my knee, my ankle. How do you navigate that as a franchise

when you do need, where you do want to win that title, but it's not systematically going up to try to win a title. It's going to get a guy that is aging but a superstar. Yeah, I think it's so easy for us to get caught in the trap of just like, oh, the Lakers need X, Y, Z. They need to make that happen.

And then we just get into this interminable discussion where we're talking about what the Lakers need for two years. And all of a sudden, LeBron James is two years older. And you haven't moved anywhere and you really need to make movement on those kinds of deals. Durant is an interesting part of that because you're right. Like, this is not the optimal time to trade for Kevin Durant. In terms of the stage of the season, certainly,

in terms of the stage of his career and what he's dealing with injury-wise. You can look at the Dallas Mavericks. and say maybe it's not the best time to trade for Kyrie Irving either this late in the year, but especially if you are a competitive team and you make a superstar trade in the middle of the season, you will almost never have the depth you need to make a real run. Because just like the sheer salary you have to package together to make that trade happen means you're giving up at least one or two more rotation players than you're getting back in. Some teams can make that work anyway.

Some players are good enough to make that work anyway. way. But I don't think anyone's looking at Phoenix and saying, this is perfect timing in terms of like they're going to get Durant in the door. And certainly like with the ankle injury, that's a fluke thing on top of his injury situation already. That's unfortunate. I think where it is good timing is in like the Chris Paul DeAndre Aitin part of it, which as you mentioned, if the suns had just rolled, say the suns had just rolled through the year, not traded for Kevin Durant, maybe they had some preliminary discussions and said, hey, let's circle back in the offseason, we'll make something happen,

we'll talk then, and they flame out in the playoffs, because that team, you're right, would not have been good enough. I just have my doubts as to like what happens to Chris Paul and D'Andre Aton in that scenario.

Like, are they a part of the Sun's future? Are they like a meaningful part of the core in quite the same way? Part of the value in getting Kevin Durant is he extends Chris Paul's, like, life as an elite player, right? He makes life easier for guys like Chris Paul.

He takes some of the burden and some of the pressure off of guys like Aiton. in ways that I think have real team-building consequences. If Aiton went through another playoff run in which at the end he was getting benched in close-out games, he's probably just not on the team anymore.

And now, no matter... I mean, maybe that happens anyway, but no matter what happens, he has more runway in this postseason to play his way through mistakes, to try to find his path, to be a meaningful part of a team that could at least vie to win the championship.

Yeah, but it's interesting, though, right? Because I think, like, I got to wonder, and I don't have any reported on this, but I got to wonder if Kevin is just thinking, man, should I have just gone through with that trade request if I was going to end up here anyway? Because I think if, let's just go back to the summertime where Kevin, you know,

thinks about, I mean, he does, sends out a trade request. And then he pulls it back. I got to think, like, if he would have, if he would have just went through with the trade, say that they just send him to the sons anyway, the net send them to the Sons, get a big package. And Kevin's able to get a training camp, right?

And then they're able to learn how to play with each other during that stretch where teams learn how to play with each other while winning, right? How does that set up Kevin? And how does that ultimately set up the Sons where they're not a team just fighting to stay out of the play in? They're probably the number one or two team in the league. I think they're better than Denver

if they just have a full season ahead. of them, I think that's what I talk about timing, right? Like, if you're going to do it, just do it. You know, and I think that that would have been a better, better situation for all parties. If he just, if the trade request just goes through over the summertime, because everyone has a chance to get to know each other a bit better. I think that's definitely true for Phoenix, and it probably behooves Kevin Durant. The reason it didn't go through is because the Nets didn't want it to go through. And they're the other party in that trade that, look, maybe by holding out as long as they did and trying to play out,

that string as long as they did. Maybe this was even better than the offers they were getting for KD then. We heard rumors about what they are. And certainly, like, if you look at the Nets now, it's not like the absolute, like, home run of superstar return packages, but it's a pretty good one. And like getting McHale Bridges in that deal, again, like, maybe they would have gotten McKale Bridges anyway if they had done the trade in the preseason. It's really hard to say what the maneuvering points on those negotiations were.

But, yeah, like, the importance of a training camp is so critical. And you can even see it in James Harden and Philadelphia, too, just like the difference night and day between him being airdropped into that situation last season and then having just roll into the playoffs, kind of on a similar timetable to what KD is about to do, versus now he and Joel is just like perfect pick and roll chemistry. They know exactly how to play off each other. And that's not the magic necessarily of like five days at a training camp locale. It's just like time spent.

Like how much are you able to work on this stuff over four months? Well, yeah, and it's not just like, again, to your point, it's not the five games in the preseason. It's also the first few games in October and November. Absolutely. Because everyone is on that same timeline. Like, contrary to popular belief, most teams don't know their whole squad and how they're playing until probably about January. They understand how to play with each other. Yeah.

I just think that, you know, the Phoenix Suns would have had a chance to, you know, win a couple games, you know, that they probably weren't supposed to in October. just for the sheer fact that they're more talented and then just learn in that way and I think they would have been a way more a well-oiled machine. That's a good lens I think to think about this West. Like you're talking about the teams

that know how to play with each other. I think you could make arguments that some of these Western Conference teams, even ones that could theoretically win the championship still don't. I think the Clippers are still in that category. The Suns clearly, as we're talking about, there are elements where they know what to do.

There are lots of them where they don't. There are teams like the Mavericks that have basically fallen out of the entire playoff picture because they don't know how to play together at this point. Yeah. And then on the other end of that, you have the Warriors, a team we talk about a lot, who I... Who technically know each other. They know each other probably better than anybody in the Western Conference.

They definitely know each other, maybe too well in some respects. And they are so hard to trust. They are so hard to believe in who they are going to be on a nightly basis that the best thing about them is that they trust each other. the worst thing about them is just like all of these various holes they're trying to plug in the rotation at any given point in time and it just makes it

very hard to say even everything like I want to believe in the heart of a champion I certainly have a lot of respect and there's so much credibility in everything that they've built but how do you look at that team a team that's 9 and 29 on the road and say that's the one that's going to make it out of the Western Conference? I don't know I don't know but like

it's the Warriors are tricky because like every once in a while I think about the New Orleans game I think about that Dallas game on the road they show you what's in that medal right that championship medal they show you the type of team

that they could be at all times but for whatever reason that's why that punch was just so important to the season it just got the juju all bad they had to it's not the fact that they had to relearn each other they just had to navigate through all of the stuff that goes through that right

like, you know, Jordan Poole had never been through. Like, he doesn't like all of the attention on him, contrary to popular belief, right? So to have every single, you've seen him in press conferences, he's probably one of the shyer guys in the league, right? He wants to get up out of there as soon as he sits down. Exactly. So for that to happen, that messes with his psyche. You know, Draymond, there's always rumors that he's probably going to be gone by the end of the season, which are pretty much substantiated like every time he does a podcast, right?

But there's all of these types of things coming in at once with that team. But there's some games where they like, they overcome this. They're like, oh, okay, it doesn't matter. Like Bob Myers is going to slap fives with Draymond and we're on the sideline and we're going to figure it out, right? So they're just an interesting team because there's just so much variance. And like they're sixth right now. You could talk me into them getting to representing the West and the finals. You could talk me into it.

Now, I don't think they're going to win it. I don't even think they're going to win the Western Conference. But you could talk me into it. It's easy to see the vision, right? We've just seen it so many times before. We've seen the actions and the momentum and the huge runs that get them there. Like, we know what those things are. And you're right.

Like the Pelicans game in particular, just a huge statement for the Warriors and such a huge flub by the Pelicans in a way that was really painful, really hurt their chances of like solidifying even a play-in spot. But Golden State can just do that sometimes. Like they do have it in them. I think what makes them interesting, they are a fascinating if they are whole conversation, right?

Because as you alluded to up top, basically the number one question in the NBA world right now is, oh my God, who you got coming out of the West? What's happening? What is this situation? The number two question I get,

I don't know if you get this, is where is Andrew Wiggins and what's happening with him? Maybe that's our being rooted in the Bay Area. And I don't want to get into the situation too much so much as when they have been whole, like that lineup, their usual starting lineup,

their preferred starting lineup with Wiggins, was one of the best lineups in the NBA this season. Their lineup with Dante Divencenzzo in his place is pretty good. And that's the difference, right? Like if they are their complete team, maybe this conversation is totally different. Maybe we are contextualizing them in the West

in a totally different way. And maybe we are with the clippers of Paul George is totally healthy too, right? Like there's so many different variations of this. Maybe we are with the sons, like talking about that. differently if Devin Booker had been healthy all year and they just blew the doors off teams all throughout the season. It's just so hard to gauge where these teams are right now.

And Wiggins and the Warriors in particular, just because we don't know if and when he's going to come back, if and what condition he will be in when he gets back. This isn't like, again, I'm not trying to facilitate the like feeding of pressure for Andrew Wiggins to return so much as to say, like, one of the most important players in the Western Conference isn't playing basketball right now. And we have no idea how that will result. off itself. I tell you what, Rob, breaking news. I quietly bought some comminga stock midst like in January.

Smart purchase. Quietly. Like it was where it was after that Utah game where they lost. But he had that crazy block. I was like, I'm going to, I'm just going to, I'm going to buy some stock. No one. It's very, it's very cheap at this point. I'm going to take this. I think he might have a chance to, he definitely has a chance to make his mark on the postseason, especially with Wiggins. Because there's a thing with Wiggins, man.

I don't know what's, I don't have a, you know, we're in the, you know, in the scuttle, but I'm not going to bring that all onto the podcast. We've heard rumors of what is probably going on, but nothing substantiated enough so that I don't want to get into at this point. But the overall point is like what I don't know what we can even expect from Wiggins should he come back, right? Say if he comes back this week, is he working out at an NBA level going into the postseason? I don't really think so. He's been gone for a month. Like, it's really hard to.

to stay in NBA shape at this point of the season and also then to get into playoff shape, I'm a bit skeptical. For a guy like Andrew Wiggins specifically, not just getting into playoff shape, but getting into playoff gear, like mentally speaking. This is a guy who, it took him years and years of his NBA career

to just get to the level where he is like dialed up and competing every night. And I don't want to say like that just goes away, but that's a muscle that needs to be trained, that needs to be refreshed, that you have to be exercising, You step away from the game for a bit to deal with whatever is happening in your personal life. It's hard to just step back on a court in the middle of a playoff series in the middle of a run

and be going as hard as he did in last year's finals. That's just not a realistic expectation. He was the second best player. Yeah. It's going to be so interesting with the Warriors now transitioning. If the Warriors stay in the sixth seed, you know who they play? One of our faves. Yep.

The Sacramento Kings. Draymond's save too. Baby, like the beam, baby. Yo, so me and Rob were at the King's son's game, I think, last week. And I can't tell you how, like, giddy we got when they were about to light the beam. We were like, it was B, Rob,

and like four other people watching this thing take place. And all of our inner child came out, right? Like, if you go to a Kings game, there's nothing that can explain the euphoric feeling when you hear 20,000 people. yelling at the top of the lungs, light the beam. They really need to open it up so, like, if you have, like, a kid's birthday party,

you can come into the arena at, like, 2 p.m. on a weekday and just, like, light the beam for yourself, ceremonially speaking. I just want to mash the huge button, and I want everyone to cheer. Is that so much to ask? So what I heard about this, this beam situation is they actually, the button doesn't actually connect to the top of the room.

Well, obviously not. It's actually, so, no, what I'm saying, though, is if you were to do that, I feel like it would be a lot of money because you have to make sure people are at the roof to, like, make sure. This is true. Time it, right? There's got to be a staff. Going you, Rob, you're probably going to want to hit it a whole bunch of times to just be like, hold on. Bing!

Wait, I'm not done yet. Let me do it one more time. And everyone at the roof is like, come on, dude. I think that's what it would be. But anyway, at this very moment, the Kings would play the Warriors. And that fight, that goes right into our theory of, like, anyone can win this. Because if you tell me right now who would win in a matchup between the Kings and the Warriors

going into the first round of the playoffs, I think the Warriors won that pretty handily. And not any shade to the Kings, more because they just haven't been there before. And there's a lot to be said about being there. And I remember I was at the game, watching a lot of Kings lately. I was at the Timberwolves game.

And it was the first time a lot of media had come into Sacramento. And we've seen this a lot in Golden State just with the buzz pregame and you just see a lot of different people that you don't normally see during the regular season. And it's like, oh, they had the shirts out. They had all these things going. It seemed like a game that the Kings were supposed to win, the meet the moment type games. Right.

And the Timberwolves to systematically beat the Kings in a game that does it mean that much in the whole, you know, does it mean that much in the whole totality of the season? Not necessarily, but for as a step up. you got to win those types of games, right? Like just you win that for your home crowd. You don't come out lackadaisical and nervous, and that's what the Kings did. That gave me pause. And when I think about a team like the Kings,

who are, you know, Raja is big. If you are going to win a championship, you have to be in the top 10 of offensive and defensive efficiency. Yeah, how far are the Kings from the top 10 in defensive efficiency right now? they are 24th currently in defensive rating. They are first in offensive rating. That's going to be a problem, right?

And you put that, what do you see from currently as it stands now, and this could change in the Wanky Western Conference, but if you see a Kings Warriors matchup right at this moment, what are you thinking, and what is the outcome? I think the Kings win.

Whoa! Yeah, I think the Kings win. So this is where the Kings get interesting in the bracket, because if I were the Clippers, I would say the only chance I have making it out of the first round

is the Clippers who are kind of locked into this space in the standings now where they're either going to be the fifth seed playing the fourth seed sons or they're going to be

the sixth seed playing the third seed kings. I don't think the Clippers can beat the Sons. I think they might be able to beat the Kings. And so for them Sacramento is a favorable path.

Golden State though like these teams haven't played in a while. They got a lot of their games out really early in the season. They play next week, which is going to be, they play on the seven, which is going to be a fun matchup. One more date on the calendar. But the instructive

game for me in the matchups they've had so far, which have been tight overall, they took a 47 piece from Steph and almost won that game. And I'm thinking about, like, who are the teams that can really withstand Steph going off and still have the firepower

to beat Golden State? Sacramento's at the top of that list. There have been a lot of teams that this season that have taken a lot of big punches from Steph and have still won the game, though, Rob. I mean, two 50-point losses for the Warriors when Steph scores 50, the Warriors still lose. This is what this team does sometimes,

but that's kind of my point is like, they are flawed in that way. Defensively, Golden State is not what it used to be. Can they dial it up? Yes. Can they have explosive and dominant stretches like they did against New Orleans the other night? Of course.

Over a full series, I think the Kings are so tough to guard. And I think they are adaptive in the way they need to be, right? Like, there's just so many things you can run off of those handoffs and those pick and rolls featuring Sabonis primarily.

And Deer & Fox has been so good in ISO, like so good in crunch time situations. I just kind of trust that. I honestly, I trust Sacramento's offense more than I trust anything the Warriors do that is not named Steph Curry. That's very interesting. Now, there are a lot of layers

to this matchup, and one of those layers is Mike Brown being the long-term assistant to the golden state he is now the now the head codes of the kings yeah right so there's a there's an added motivation for golden state on that right well and he might have some state secrets you know like he knows he knows the ins and outs he knows the skill sets he knows the playbook yeah but then the warriors will say well we won without you mike and he won with you so it doesn't really matter but um there's that there is the norcal rivalry that is you know between the bay and

Sacramento. But more than anything, I think the reason why I would pick Golden State in this one is because I've seen all of the things that you were describing with the Kings.

I see that happening and I think it's brilliant. I think they've played really well this season. I think I've seen all the things that you were describing as a good basketball team. But Rob,

it goes back to my argument earlier. Like, they've never been there before. What are they going to do when they're going to do? When they are called out of their name by Draymond Green, which will happen, I guess, 12 minutes in the game one. How are they going to respond to those types of things, right? The Warriors don't have to travel very far. This is going to be seven home games no matter what.

And that was like a, at least a concern in sack for a second is like, oh, man, if we play the Warriors, like the secondary market is going to be full of Warrior fans just buying all the tickets and driving up or going. on the Amtrak to get up to Sacramento, right? Totally. And where's are, so what happens, say, if, you know, they split, the, the warriors steal one in Sacramento. Can the Kings win and chase? Which is a very hard place to play, even this season when the, when the warriors have not been good.

In fact, Chase Center has been the Warriors saving grace, right? What do they do when they have to, you know, there are a lot of questions with this Kings team that need to be answered this postseason that I can't really answer until I see it? Are they going to have the toughness? Now, I think Darren Fox is one of the toughest dudes and one of the best kept secrets right now in the league. I know he's getting his pub right now, but I don't think people realize just how tough of a dude

and strong-minded he is. But I want that to be tested against, you know, the four-time champs and the reigning champs over the year. And I can't, I can't in good conscious pick the Kings yet until I see them exhibit those qualities of a team that has aspirations to be a postseason team year in and year out with Mike. Brown. I just think that this is a test that they need to pass before I could just be like,

oh, yeah, they're going to be, they're going to beat the reigning champs and, you know, a team with four all-famers on it. I just got to see it. Look, I get it. But you know where your case went off the rails is when you said, what if the Warriors can steal one in SAC as if they've won literally any road games all season long? Okay, but here's a thing. No, the Sack is in, it's so close to the bay. It's basically a home game. You know what I'm saying? It's basically, it's basically, hey, I'm doing the thing, I'm doing the thing where we just undercut every argument.

Like, every team has a fatal flaw. The Warriors just have to be they can't play defense or can't be the same team on the road for some reason. But I think it's totally valid to want to see Sacramento prove it. And I agree with your point on Fox. Like, I think he's the guy. You know, you look across their roster. And I think it would be easy to look at Sacramento's players

and think about like, okay, when the lights are really bright, you know, like a game five. 2-2, who shows up and who doesn't, who looks like a little bit daunted by that moment. I think it's easy to look up and down the roster and say, like, you know, like, Kegan Murray's a rookie, that's a big moment. It's a lot to expect from him.

Like, De Manas Sabonis hasn't played in games that are that important that often in his career. Like Harrison Barnes, I like him on balance. He hasn't shown up in some huge games over the course of his playoff career. Like, what happens with these guys? Man, I'm not worried about Deer and Fox. Like, he is going to be.

He is going to be there cutting it, making huge baskets. Well, it goes back to that at one point. Remember, we were watching the Kings against Phoenix. The flop that I referenced on Chris Paul was against Deerian Fox. And then they go on this stupid run. And then they run them out of the building. Like, that was one of the, that's the type of energy that Fox brings. And I think Fox might have got injured in that game.

I'm not sure I got them all monkey. But that's how Kings respond to certain instances like that. against teams, the sons, you know, Chris Paul seen it all. Yeah. Devin Booker's been to the finals.

You know, Monty Williams is a very accomplished coach. It didn't matter that night. It did not. That's what you're saying. Yeah. So, like,

the Fox element, I do think could be a stabilizer for him. Like, honestly, spiritually speaking, like, as people, as emotional centers of that team,

what Subonis and Fox give them is so nice. Like, there's just like a good combination there of this very, like, chill, but also like workmanlike presence in Subonis. That gives them like tactical basketball advantages, right?

But he's not your spiritual leader. He's not the guy you're looking to lead your team or guide them in that way. He's just going to get, you know, 18 and 12 and call it good, and you're going to win a lot of games. But Fox is that kind of presence who revs teams up. And the fact that he can be that while having the season he's having, a season that is maybe going to get him a spot on one of the all-NBA team. and deservingly so. It's like they've already done the breakthrough to me. And now it's a matter of like,

can you formalize it by beating a team like Golden State? Can you prove it? Can you prove it to the Logan Murdox of the world? I'm just, because they're the darlings of the league at this point, right? Like Mike Brown is going to get coach of the year. Yes. Deeran Fox has gotten his flowers and will continue to get his flowers. They just got to prove it in the postseason.

And I mean, we'll see what happens. I am very, very skeptical if they can do it, and I'm not the only one in this nationally. I'm sure there are a lot of people that are skeptical of the Kings. But it'll be fun. Also, I think that crowd is going to be insane. It's going to be.

I was skeptical of the acoustics at Golden One. There was a time during that Phoenix game where they just got to another decibel that I didn't know existed. And to consistently do that throughout a postseason series will wear on teams. And it'll just be interesting overall. The NBA season is coming down to the wire and now is the perfect time to download Fandual. America's number one sportsbook.

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versus the Denver Nuggets. And you know what I'm going to do. I'm going to take the over on point scored with Yokic. You know the vibes. We hear. So don't miss a chance to get your no sweat first bet up to $1,000 in bonus bets when you go to Fanduil.com backslash Ringer MBA. That is Fanduil.com backslash Ringer MBA. And Fandul is now live in Massachusetts. Download the app now and take advantage of their great special offers, boosts, and more. Make every moment more with Fandual, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. 21 years and older and present in select states, first online real money wager only.

$10 deposit required, refund issued as non-witzrable bonus bets that expire in 14 days. restrictions apply. See full terms at fandul.com backslash sportsbook. Fandle is offering online sports money wagering and Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. Have a gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler. Call 1877 Hope N.W. Or text Hope N. Y or 677369 in New York. Call 1-800 gambler or visit fanduel.com backslash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia. Call 1-800 next step or text next step to 533442 Arizona, 1-888-78-9-7777, or visit CCPG.org backslash chat in Connecticut.

1-8009 with it in Indiana, 1-800-522470, or visit KSgamblinghelp.com in Kansas, dial 1877-770 stop in Louisiana or visit www. Org in Maryland, 1,800 522470, Wyoming, or visit www.1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia. The team I would like to talk about that I've just had so many questions about that are in the mix once again, as the Memphis Grizzlies, who I just can't get a good gauge on what they are as a team. You talk about transformations and the iterations of different teams.

They're eight and two in their last 10. They played great defense. They're middle of the pack offensively. But more than anything, they have dealt with a lot when you talk about just the Shannon Sharp episode. Then you talk about what happens with John Morant. Does that, in your eyes, does that make them more battle tested? Or does it, is this like a sinking ship on the way down? I just, I can't get a grasp on what this team is going to do.

But also they might be the second safest bet in the West. conference behind the Nuggets at this at this very moment. I don't know about more battle tested given those circumstances, but the reality is this. They've been probably the best team in the Western Conference this month. And they played 10 of those games without John Morant. Pretty incredible stuff, what they've been able to piece together. And they have the rotation to do it, right? Like they have both like good backup point guard play and guys like Jerry Jackson Jr.

who have just been champing at the bit to do even more. And it really kind of proved what he's been able to do in some of these stretches. So, like, they have a good roster composition for it. For me, it's the offense. That's the huge question. And specifically the half-court offense. And it's what led them to be incredibly sloppy and really chaotic in last year's postseason. And you could see them running into that same problem again.

But, like, again, when you look at these Western Conference teams, who are the good defenses who are going to press them? Like, Denver is not that. Sacramento's we've covered is not that. Golden State, as constructed, is not that. There just aren't really a lot of great defenses here who are going to say, like, oh, we're going to totally shut down the Grizzlies, we're going to turn off their water, we're going to make them go to their third and fourth and fifth options on these plays.

That's just not happening for a lot of these defenses. And maybe you could argue that some of them in the playoffs, they're really going to turn it up. But I kind of need to see that out of some of these teams. And so, like, that's where Memphis gets really compelling. Well, it's pretty simple when you do that. You make Jod do everything, and you should. shut down every other safety valve. That's been that that has been the tried and true philosophy of a lot

of teams that have stopped the Memphis Grizzlies throughout the postseason, right? And I don't I don't see any change in that this season. I think that when you talk about fatal flaws, that is the Grizzlies fatal flaw. When they have, when they put so much emphasis on John Moran and they don't pass the ball around and then they get stagnant and then they start filling themselves, and start talking shit when they're about to lose, and then they make it more than what the game is on the court. So they are another team. We talked about the Kings,

but the Memphis is another team for me that is just going to have to prove it. Because also, last year was the vibes season, right? Where they could do no wrong. It didn't matter. This is the first season where if they lose early, say they flame out, they go to the second round again and lose to,

I don't know which team. We'll see what happens. There's going to be legitimate questions about their roster and also their coaching going forward. And that's going to be very interesting how they play under that type of pressure. Yeah, I mean, this is a vibe season in a very different way, I think, for the Memphis Grizzlies.

And they do need to prove something. It's weird to say for a team that has been ahead of the curve that's still so young in terms of who its core members are, who are the players on this team that really matter in terms of the trajectory of where this franchise is going. Those guys aren't Kevin Durant aged, right? So there's not a ticking clock on them in that way. But there is a ticking clock on them to prove we can do this.

Like we have enough. This is at least the core of something that can go somewhere. Like, yeah, maybe down the line you bring in a new small forward, a new center, whatever that looks like. But the gist of this can work. And they do have some stuff to prove in that regard. And tangential to our warriors on the road conversation, it's been kind of quietly under discussed because the warriors have been so bad traveling. But Memphis 15 and 22 on the road this season.

Just have not had it in those games. And have it honestly just haven't won the right games, right? Like, we just brought up Golden State. They should have beaten Golden State in San Francisco on Christmas Day. That's just point blank. When you are a team that talked all the shit that they talked and picked fights with the champs, you go in there and you blow them the fuck out.

That's what you do. And then the Shannon Sharp game, You know what you're supposed to do on those types of games? You're supposed to, after that happens, lock in and blow them the fuck out. And then just quiet, just, that's what those teams, that's what I'm looking for out of the Grizzlies because their talent suggests is that that is what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to have those wins. And they just haven't had those types of wins, at least the signature wins that make you

scary across the Western Conference and beyond. Like, they haven't had the message wins. in my opinion. It's, it's been hard for them to cobble some of those together. I think they've had more lately. Like,

they have had some good wins over the Warriors lately. Yeah, that Dylan Brooks game was a great win for them. That was, if you talk about a signature win, that was a great win.

That was amazing. They've had some incredible moments. And they've had stretches where, like, look, we've talked a lot recently about these back-to-back losses that Dallas had to Charlotte

and how painful that was and it's, you know, the Mavericks trying to make the play-in and the playoffs. Dallas lost to Memphis like three times in in 10 days.

They just could not close the gap, got absolutely waxed in some of those games. And Memphis, this is one of those weird things about championship contenders. It's like, how much stock do you put in the big games? Like you're saying,

like the signature moments versus the taking care of business were just not going to lose to the Houston Rockets in this like third game of a road trip kind of situation. I feel like Memphis has been pretty good at those types.

Well, let me take out the road trip part. They've been pretty good at taking care of business at home. They've done enough of that on balance where a lot of the big picture indicators say, this is like a real team you need to take seriously. And the rotation says,

this is a real team you need to take seriously. And yeah, some nights they roll in and they like, you know, lose to the clippers without Kauai Leonard. Like that's just, that's just what it's going to be. And that's what it's going to be

for a lot of the teams in the West right now. All right, let's say to do one of the teams that you just referenced, which is the Dallas Mavericks, right, who have just been a dumpster fire since, since the trade deadline over

man, it's been terrible, man. It's not good vibes. At this very moment, I've asked Raj's this question, and I will tell you his answer after I hear yours, what do you do with Kyrie Irving

in this summer? After what you've seen, you know, the sample size, and this goes back to my, I guess my problem with teams like the Mavericks, where you don't systematically

just build a team, right? Where it's just, it's, the Kyrie Irving trade is a band-aid for what you should have done over the summer. You should have re-signed Jalen Brunson. You should have not disrespected him with the offer that you gave him.

And even if you would have signed Jalen Brunson, you probably still could have traded for Kyrie. Probably still could have got him on your roster, right? But instead, you're in this position where you are trying to do better with the mistakes you made. You're trying to cover up the mistakes you made months ago with the deal like this.

And it is showing how flawed, that roster is where there is no depth, right? I'm not trusting Kristen Wood to do anything in the postseason, right, if they make it. The way the roster is currently constructed, do you take, do you bring Kyrie back? And what ways do you bring him back? And what else do you do with this roster going into the summertime? Because at this point, it doesn't look like they're going to the postseason at all. It really doesn't.

I mean, look, in order to make the postseason, they would basically have to be a completely different team than what they've been. They have to show something completely different than what they have. They would have to prove that they know how to play together. They have not done that. As far as what to do with Kyrie,

look, my first option is I get Kyrie to take me down like a YouTube rabbit hole where we learn a lot about quantum physics. We build a time machine together. We go back in time. I never trade for Kyrie Irving

in the first place. That is my first option. You're using Kyrie to get Kyrie off of the team. Look, honestly, at this point, I feel like he would understand. But second option, if Kyrie Irving is going to be on our team, if quantum physics are off the table, I don't, like, I know it's a logical fallacy to think of yourself as being like pot committed in this instance. Like you've already pushed so much in, you have to see it through.

But this really is one of those situations. Like if you are, here's the thing, if Kyrie decides himself to leave, I think the Mavericks have some cover in terms of like what the future of their team is, in terms of how Luca Donchich interprets that information. in that development, you have some cover. But if you are the Mavericks and you say we're just not going to resign Kyrie Irving, I think that's basically the signal of the end of the Luca era coming.

You would be asking extraordinary patience of him to stay and continue to fight the good fight. Without evidence to suggest that the front office will actually have your back. Even though this is a front, even though this is a relatively new front office that he's bringing in

and he's inherited with Nico Harrison, If I'm Luca, and again, I'm not Tim Kato, I'm not Tim McMahon. I'm not in those locker rooms. I'm just speaking from 1,500 miles away, right? But if I am Luca and I see all of this happening, the trade for Brazingus that doesn't work out, after that I still bring us to the Western Conference Finals with the help of Jalen Brunson. And then you don't resign this guy. and then you give me this roster, and then you trade for a guy like Kyrie,

who is brilliantly, brilliant offensively, but then I see, like, the rest of the roster, and I see this is just not going to work. And then you're telling me, hey, guys, wait, this is the front office saying,

hey, wait, wait, we're going to make this work. There's no evidence to suggest that you're going to do that. There's not. Well, first of all, I want to say, you're just like plucking out of the air

about the exact mileage between you and the Dallas Mavericks locker room. I just Googled it. Shockingly accurate. You should go on the, it's like a great parlor trick. You should go on the road.

I commend you. But no, you're right. Like there is a matter of the front office needing to show Luca, we have what it takes to like move and shake, not only to get guys like Kyrie in the building, but to potentially retain them, to continue building around you,

to build a real team, to like a fully fleshed out team that contrary to, you know, the Mavericks team that made the run to the Western Conference Finals last year, that team did overachieve. That team did play over its head. It was cobbled together defensively

in a way where they needed to be clicking on all cylinders at all times to make it work. And they did. And it was an incredible run. Luca played out of his mind. Jalen Brunson played great basketball. They didn't bring him back.

You need to have something that's more sustainable than, oh, if everything breaks exactly right for us, we can make a deep run. And sustainability comes from, honestly, not Kyrie Irving, but since that's who you have decided to bring to the dance with you,

you're kind of committed to that idea at this point. And Luca is not getting a lot of cover in terms of, you're right, team building from the front office. Like, they need to show something to him. He's not getting cover from a lot of his teammates who just aren't really good enough for the roles that they're currently cast in.

There's good players there, but they're just like one or two spots in the depth chart too high. He's certainly not getting any cover from his coach, because as we know, nothing is ever Jason Kidd's fault, according to Jason Kidd. He's just a guy watching these guys,

games like the rest of us. If enough of those things start to pile up and, like, Kyrie looks at this situation and says, like, thanks, but no thanks, I'm just going to go. I don't know. That's a really hard pill for a superstar to swallow, especially when you look at the coffers, and the MAVs don't have a lot of draft picks to trade.

Like, they do have some distant firsts. Once some of their picks convey, they can start to then trade subsequent picks, but it's just hard to imagine how they, if Kyrie doesn't work, what would? I mean, I said this last podcast, but it's big like 07 LeBron energy right now from the Mavericks, right? Where they're just everything is reactionary. Everything is what we think Luca is going to like. And it's not really team building.

It's, I'm going to trade for this person. He has a name. Maybe he'll fit. Or we're going to, it's just very reactionary trades. And I don't think that there's actually been much, much team building at all. and at some point, like how it happened with LeBron, it's just going to run its course. It is what it is, right?

There has to be great players have to have great front offices and great coaches and great things. That's what they're – I think they're owed that, right? I mean, Luca is one of the greatest players we've ever seen already. You would want that to be matched by – that performance to be matched by the front office. right and it's a shame what's going on in Dallas right now and also like I don't want to pile on Kyrie because to his credit at least the report suggests right now over this six week sample size that he's been a good teammate right like I don't want to do that but

every move has just been so reactionary and it's just been a just been a testament to how bad the front offices the multiple front offices have been have been in Dallas and it's It's a shame, Rob. They haven't done enough. And the proof of that is we're having this conversation about what can happen in the Western Conference. And look, there's nothing media members love more than to look at an underperforming team

with a superstar player on it and say, you know what? If cards just fall in their favor, you can't count Luca out of a series, no, the Mavericks are not going anywhere. Like, this team is not going anywhere. It's almost like a detriment how good Luca was last year, Because you, I mean, you should expect that because that's how great he is.

But also, man, like, he shouldn't have to do that. He should not have to, it should not have to be that way. He has to do such a heavy lift for them to be competitive. And you can see them, like, trying to figure out ways around that now. Like, okay, maybe we go to Kyrie early. Maybe we kind of, like, take some of the usage off of Luca in these situations. They're kind of starting to get to that point, but it's just too late. and they don't have

Luca for as great as he is and he's been incredible in the postseason he doesn't have that LeBron factor of you know what we've just seen this guy dismantle so many different teams where you could talk me into the Lakers upsetting a lot of potential opponents just like as a theoretical possibility

I wouldn't pick it like I'm not picking the Lakers over Denver I'm not even picking the Lakers over Memphis frankly but they have a percentage chance that registers on the meter. The Mavs aren't, they're not moving the needle. The Mavs, they do not have a shot with this team. They're too small, their defense is too bad. Their offense is too inconsistent,

even though by the numbers, it can be elite, especially when Luca and Kyrie are on the floor together. The only reason why we're having this discussion is because of them even thinking to make a run in this postseason is because Luca Dodgers is on the team. That's literally the only reason why we even think that they have a chance. Okay, man. It is Thursday.

Rau Ra is not here, but we're still going to do this segment. A little segment we like to call Ruin of the Week, where we point out a person, organization, or entity that just won the week in our eyes. I'm going to go first, and I'm going to go to our guest host of honor, Rob. I'm going to go with Lamar Jackson. And for more than anything, I just want to see what he does with all this power. I want to see how it works out.

I'm rooting for him. I hope that it all works out and what he gets what he wants. This guy is an MVP. It seems like teams are trying to. Teams are just fighting to make an example out of him because he doesn't have the traditional agents set up. He doesn't have all of these things. And we'll see how that bears fruit in the coming weeks. But I just I just respect just the ambition and the unmitigated gall that he is possessing right now.

I respect it. And we'll see what happens. with that and what comes of it. But I just respect it. So I'm going to go with Lamar Jackson's my real one of the week. Who you got, Rob? Well, we can all strive for a little ambition and unmitigated gall. But, I mean, honestly, speaking of that, my real one of the week, one Kiannu Reeves,

opened John Wick Chapter 4 this past weekend. There you go. $74 million opening weekend gross. Keanu said, I'm going to give you a three-hour, like, kind of overstuffed, way too, like, indulgent action movie. And the people of America had said, yes, please feed us more. Please, please continue to give us your Keanu brand and baseline of like beautiful action filmmaking and kind of essential like spiritualism that seems to guide him in his every interview he does. An incredible presence in our day-to-day lives. I'm glad Keanu Reeves is making movies

in the year of Our Lord 2023. He said, I'm going to make this epic and you're going to fucking like it. And you're going to pay for it. You're going to pay up. You're going to pay a lot of money for it, and God bless him. Rob, it's always a treat when we get to meet. Thanks so much for coming on, man. We'll see you soon, man. You can listen to Rob on group chat throughout the playoffs. And hopefully we'll have you again soon, man.

It's been good. Sounds good. Thanks, Logan. Talk to y'all soon. Peace.