The Ringer NBA Show - Sophomore Surge or Sophomore Slump? | The Corner 3 (Ep. 339)

Episode Date: November 16, 2018

Jimmy Butler’s tight fit in Philadelphia (1:07), a sophomore focus in this week’s The Kids Are Alright (23:26), and a look ahead at the weekend’s best games (37:36). Hosts: Kevin O'Connor, Danny Chau, Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly. We just launched a brand new podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, hosted by our very own staff writer, Shea Serrano, called Villains. In the premiere episode, Shea is joined by Jason Concepcion and Sean Fennessee to dissect the iconic villain Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs. You can check out the first episode and subscribe right now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I'm Kevin O'Connor, and we are the Corner 3, joining me here in beautiful

Los Angeles is Ringer Associate Editor, Danny Chow. It really is beautiful. About 76 degrees outside, it's wonderful. You're not disgusting. We're in a beautiful flowered shirt as well. Yeah, it's a nice little floral print. It feels like a Thanksgiving like tablecloth. Yeah, maybe I'll try it on later.

I don't know if it would look as good on me as it would with you, though. Anyway, from Dallas, Texas, cold Dallas, Texas. It's from your staff writer, Jonathan Sharx. What's up, guys? We're recording this at 2.10 p.m. on Thursday, November 15th, and you're hearing it on Friday. Let's start off with the biggest news of the week. And that's Jimmy Butler, who is, of course, traded to Philadelphia 76ers. Danny, you wrote an article on the ringer,

breaking down Butler's debut, a loss to the Orlando Magic, a game around Kevin Clark actually attended. Oh, yeah. What was your big takeaway from that game, and what do you want to see moving forward? This is something that we've kind of touched on, even before, you know, the first game. It was mainly what is Jimmy Butler going to look like

alongside Ben Simmons, to guys who are very much of the same vein. Power guards who love to have the ball in their hands and are probably most effective with the ball in their hands. And what we saw in the game was... Not probably, definitely. Yeah, what we saw in the game was, you know, a bit of a mixed bag there.

It was certainly clunky with those guys. I think it looked at the NBA.com slash stats, data with touches, time of possession, and dribbles per touch. All of that was close to identical for Ben Simmons and Joel Lambede, but it was drastically different for Jimmy Butler. his front court touches were similar, but his time of possession was drastically different. In Minnesota, Butler possessed the ball for 4.3 minutes per game, and in his debut with the Sixers, it was only 1.7 minutes.

And that number is obviously going to rise for him as he gets integrated into the offense, learns all the play. They only ran really one type of set for him the entire game. And with that said, those touches and those minutes that possessed the ball are going to have to come from somewhere. Jonathan, how does their offense need to evolve as those touches are given to Jim Butler, and they're probably going to be milked from someone like Ben Simmons. You know what's weird to me was that it seemed like Simmons and Butler always played together. Yeah, 31 minutes in their debut together. Yeah, and Embed was like always the one playing by himself.

And I think that's like the first big question that Brett Brown has to figure out is like, how do I split up these three guys? Do you always have two of three in? Who gets that and who gets that time by himself to dominate the ball? I think that's the first question. If you look at it in Minnesota, Tibbs never split up his guys at all, which is crazy. I think Brown's not, he can at least split up somewhat, but Mbid's playing so well, I can tell you well how the ball by himself.

So in other words, you don't agree with what he did on, in their debut, with Mbid playing alone and with Butler and Simmons playing 31 men together. See, it's weird because I get it because Mbid's been so good. But I just wonder, for Simmons especially, I feel like he could be the odd man out if you're going to play him with Boller the whole time. Yeah. Because what does Simmons do off the ball, really? When I was watching the game, I was just like, man, the spacing is so cramming.

when you have basically Brett Brown running these really weird jumbo lineups where he had... Like, that's got to stop for sure. Simmons, Butler on the court who could honestly play four or five if they wanted to. And they did that a little bit. But they were also on the court with Mike Mascala, with Amir Johnson. There are a lot of guys who can't shoot in these lineups. And suddenly you're looking at negative spacing on this team.

There were times where somebody would drive to the basket, you'd have Simmons or Markle Fultz just sitting in the dunker spot, not moving the entire possession. And the lane's clogged. I think that's something where it's just going to be a problem that they have to deal with with both those guys. But to your point, John, with the lineups and the combinations that Brett Brown puts on the floor, regardless of the most frequently used one, I think there's going to be times where all three of those guys are on the floor, where Butler and Simmons are going to be on the floor.

And that's why when it comes to the touches, to me, that's what's most interesting. You mentioned that Simmons isn't going to be an off-ball guy. But he needs to be, doesn't he? I think he has to be, as Jimmy Butler starts getting the ball in his hands more often. If you're Ben Simmons, though, why do you have to be? Right? Like, I'm a second-in-your player. I was rookie of the year.

I'm the guy. Like, why have I got to... Why? Because Jimmy Butler is a better go-to score. Ben Simmons is pretty much a zero in the half court. Right now, the way he's... He's pretty much a zero in the half court. But see, that's my question for this whole thing,

is like, I'm sure it didn't escape Ben and Joel's notice that Towns and Wiggins looked at as punks by the time Jimmy left Philadelphia. Are they cool with taking it back to Jimmy Butler? Like, how is this going to work? I'm just wondering like the personalities, even before the basketball. I don't really know if Simmons taking a backseat is really it. It's more like, okay, once he sets these screens for Butler, he's not really doing anything with that.

He just kind of roams back to, you know, a spot, download down near the paint where he can be a really dynamic player off the ball and like flush incredible dunks on people if he just kind of got into the right spots. But he didn't really get into any spot. And that was kind of the weird, frustrating part of watching that dynamic in the first game. So you think it's more about getting those jumbo on us off the floor? Like getting in more space?

I think so. And I kind of think that if we're talking about someone who should be playing maybe by themselves as the solo star of the team, I think it should be Simmons. Have him run with like four, you know, floor spacers.

And suddenly the Sixers are probably, you know, a devastating offensive team. I disagree with you guys because I think it's more, it's about more than just the lineups. I think you can't play Simmons by himself because I think you're still going to have

Markle Fultz on the floor at some point. Your floor space is still going to be suffocating. Are you though? Yeah, I think for Brett Brown, you have to play Markle Foltz. I think it's really hard to put Ben Simmons in a Yannas into Dekumpo style atmosphere on this team.

They just don't have enough shooters. You have to play those guys together and they're going to play together because they're the best players in the team. So you need to figure it out with all of them on the floor or just two of them. And I think to your point, Danny,

with Ben Simmons screen, there were times in that game where Ben Simmons would look like he was going to go set of the screen and just slipped. He would slip to the dunker spot near the baseline and hover there. It really isn't a pick and roll.

It's just not. Like at the end of that game in the fourth quarter, was there a single time where the Sixers ran a pick and roll to get a mismatch for Butler or Simmons against a smaller player?

I don't think so. Was there a time where Joe Alambed was matched up on a smaller guy in the post? No, he was playing like a guard in the perimeter the entire fourth quarter. This isn't to overreact to one game because it's really not one game. This has been a thing

the entire season for the Sixers. They don't run a lot of pick and rolls. They don't run a lot of isolations. But I really, really hope they do more of that more often. And I think that starts with Ben Simmons. You need to make him an impact player in the half court

by taking the ball out of his hands and making him a Blake Griffin, a Draymond Green screener on ball for a guy like Jimmy Butler. But does he want to do that? I don't know. I don't know. If he doesn't,

then that's a bigger problem. a bigger issue that needs to be resolved by talking to that guy. It might be the issue. Because we've been saying it for two years now it hasn't happened. I'm sure Brett Brown can see it too. But this is the first year though. Last year is a rookie, you know, it's him and T.J. McConnell. You know, those guys were both the point guards.

They were both the ball handlers on the team. This year it's Ben Simmons. It's Jimmy Butler. It's Markle Fultz trying to get developmental minutes when he's an absolute zero without the ball in his hands too. Even T.J. McConnell has a deep bench option. Like right now, the fact is, when Ben Simmons doesn't have the ball in the half-court, he can't be a zero, but he is right now.

And that might be his fault to your point, John, but I just can't imagine that it's all his fault. I think it's from the players and the coaching to make him an impact player, show him what he can be when he's screening for somebody. Like, Draymond Green, think about what he has been for the Warriors. When he's on the short role and he can pick apart defenses and he can either drive, finish at the rim, or he can just throw a kickout pass to the corner shooter

with J.J. Reddick and Landry Shamit, those are their two best shooters on the team. They don't have a lot of great shooters. But I think there's enough for Ben Senazan's like an impact. Yeah, I think. He's got to get in there. I mean, they have no choice. So one thing that they did in the game that I saw a couple times, and it was pretty

promising, you know, you got Jimmy Butler pretty much taking the ball into the front court, and then you had Embedon Simmons setting double screens. Oh, that was a great play. Suddenly you're just like, oh, okay, well, this is exactly how it starts. This is exactly what you want to see out of your three best players. Everyone kind of working in tandem. Embed, popping, Simmons, rolling, or rather, you know, getting to the dunker spot, but more so than a role. It can totally be one of their pet plays.

Yep. And they just kind of need to develop more of that, more of that chemistry. And it's going to come. But those plays and those kind of schemes were kind of few and far in between. And that's why it's not overreacting here, right? Like, Butler's going to start getting integrated more into the office. You're going to see more than just that specific play, which I think they ran four or five, maybe even six times over the course of the game. they're going to get more sets going for Jimmy Butler.

I think he showed some nice cuts off ball as well. So if Ben Simmons does continue dominating the ball and Butler's more the guy who takes that backseat role with the ball handling, Butler's still going to get spot up opportunities. If you remember in Minnesota, when he first got there, he took a backseat to Wiggins and Towns. He did. Remember like a month and a half?

Then he was like, forget this. I'm Jimmy Butler. Give me the ball. And that's what could happen here, right? And I think that gets back to your point about Ben Simmons, John, where maybe he's the guy who doesn't want to come to that off-ball role because he's so good as a playmaker. And I think with this season with Ben Simmons, he's been a little bit more passive, I want to say.

I feel like I've seen more LSU Ben Simmons this season on the offensive and the floor. I mean, he's had some great moments. Don't get me wrong. He's just as good as he was last year, but he's not better. You know, in that game, his usage percentage was only 11, which tied a career low over the course of his career. Yeah, and he took a career low amount of shots in the game, right,

outside of one game where he was in foul trouble. Incredibly passive game, not a lot of movement off ball when the ball wasn't in his hands. That's the thing really to watch moving forward is how does Ben Simmons change if Jamie Butler takes control of the ball like he did in Minnesota, John?

I have a question for you. Do you think they're making a trade by the deadline? I think they're definitely going to try. I think they need shooting. Yeah. Right? A Kyle Corver type, a contiguous Caldwell Pope,

someone like that who could... Let's rescue KCP. I'm still on this island. I'm slowly drowning, but I'm still here. And then the other question I have for you, do you think in two years all these guys are still here in Philadelphia?

About three of them? I think two of them are at least. Yeah, I'm wondering. Already, I mean, I'm overreacting. I'm wondering. I mean, look, with Jimmy Butler, who knows, with his free and sad... I think he wants his money, though.

I think Jimmy's going to take that money. That's what sounds like it's really about for him. It's too early for this. But I did hear that Philadelphia and him have some sort of idea of a contract. I'm not sure if it's the full five-year max, though. So maybe there's agreement to something less than that full-five-year max. That has to have been part of the discussion in terms of acquiring him. Maybe, and this is just a guess.

There's nothing I've heard, but maybe you could do something where it's like four-year team option on the fifth year, or maybe, I'm not, if that's even legal, CBA. I don't want to be talking out of my ass here. or something that's just a little bit less than the full max. Right. I think that would be fair

because Jimmy Butler getting paid $50 million at age 35. With those knees, it's, yeah. Ultimately, though, I feel like we're all in agreement, though,

that this was worth the risk for the Philadelphia at 76ers, yeah? Ooh, John, no. I just wonder if it makes you lose Ben Simmons long term whether it was worth the risk. That, to me,

is a risk that we're not properly calibrating. It's like in a year and a half Ben Simmons decided he doesn't want to do this anymore. That to me, that's what concerns me. To your point about Ben as best alone.

Ben in a Yana system where he's the really the centerpiece. He's the guy controlling the ball surrounded by shooters. If you're Ben's people, if I was clutch sports, for sure, right? Yep, yep. You see him, you see Yonnas thriving in Milwaukee with those circumstances. You think,

hmm, plug Ben in there. Imagine what he could do. And that's kind of, yeah, but that's kind of why I want to see him in this specific lineup. Let's do Ben Simmons, J.J. Reddick, Furcon, Kerkowmots, Wilson Chandler, and Mike Miskala. and just have them run. He was doing it in the playoffs last year. It was pretty well against Miami.

With Ilyosov in there. You know what lineup I want to see? Joel Embed, the Jimmy Butler, and Markell Fultz. Interesting. I want to see a larger sample of that. I'm not sure how much we're going to get it.

I mean, we didn't really see M. Bede's Butler, no Simmons, right? That didn't really happen. No. We didn't even see a single minute of the one I just mentioned with that trio. But I would like to see that moving forward

because I've realized how silly this is going to sound. But there are times the offense feels like it runs a little bit smoother with Markell Fultz in there. It just does. Wow, that's interesting. There's just times it feels, it's like with T.J. McConnell. It's not necessarily a knock against Ben.

It's just sometimes, you know, you need your stabilizer. T.J. McConnell, offense runs smoothly. Markle Fultz, there's been some times where it feels like it runs a little bit smoother with him instead of Ben Simmons, and I would just like to see that.

I got an insane trade for you. This was never happened, but I was just thinking about this this morning. What if, like, next year, you traded Ben Simmons for Gary Harris and Jamal Murray? A lot of shooting in Philly. right? What's the deal with Markell Fultz? Like, who's your

ball handler? Probably Jimmy Butler. Then you have Murray and Harris off the ball. I don't know. That is fascinating. I wonder how Denver would feel about it. Simmons and Yokch should be crazy. I feel like Yokch fits better by Simmons than M-Bed anyways. Because Yokch just play off the ball. I mean, how would you play Simmons in

Denver? I don't see Simmons and Yokch coexisting at all. Two guys that are at their best with the ball in their hands. Yeah, because like, I feel like everything that we're saying that Simmons isn't doing and the Sixers would go double with the Nuggets where he would be forced into kind of being like this cutter off ball. I mean

Andy's a worse player than Yokic. Let me say you put Yokkish at the high screen. I mean, yeah, that would be wonderful. I would love to see that. I would love to... Because I feel like Simmons in a beat how much show is going to work either long term. That's what I wonder. I feel like Simmons is the guy. I think he's got in watched this morning butler.

It's how is Simmons going to... I think he's really the big question mark right now. Ben Simmons already a top 25, top 30 guy in the league, in my opinion. But he didn't really come back better than last season. His shot hasn't improved. He still hasn't been to shoot from outside. That needs to improve. So these questions that we're talking about now don't apply.

All they need to do is be an average threat from three. And a lot of these questions suddenly aren't a concern at all. Yeah, Kevin, like what you're saying, M.B.'s gotten better. You can see them pros in his game this season. His passing. We haven't seen it. Yeah, so much better. And that's why with Joel, I mean, it just annoyed me in that game against Orlando.

know, why did he not post up at the end of that game? Why was not picking roles to get him on a switch, on a smaller player, where he draws a double and can pick a part of defense? A lot of strange pull-ups in isolation. It was baffling. That bothers me on the other side of the trade. We can't ignore the Minnesota Timberwolves, the winners of two games in a row,

and Carl Anthony Towns, he looks so happy, doesn't he, John? They're having fun out there, man. You can't argue with that. A lot of joy in that team. I think the big difference with Towns. He's playing with effort on defense against Anthony Davis. he blocked a shot at. That blocked. That was the play.

That was crazy. The block was great. A lot of effort from Towns on that end of the floor, and we'll see how it sustains. But early on, I'm impressed. Carl Anthony Town looks like a new player right now, Danny. Yeah, I mean, you basically run the modern template for every NBA basketball team now.

You put as many playmakers on the floor. You have three and D guys, and suddenly everything clicks, right? Like, it really doesn't have to be that much more difficult when you have an offensive talent like Carl Anthony Towns. And that's what I'm excited about here, right? With Carl Anthony Towns at the end of the season before Butler came, he was averaging like 28 points and 13 rebounds over his last 41 games. He had a jump at the end of his rookie year and then a jump at the end of his sophomore season.

And we haven't seen that since then because of Butler's presence. And again, that's not Butler's fault. He's a great player. It's just the circumstances. But now Towns is in a situation where I think he's going to be able to put up those numbers if he's fed the opportunity consistently. I think we're going to see that. More importantly, though, he needs to sustain the defensive effort. As for the new guys, Robert Carvington adds a defensive presence.

41 minutes for Tibbs. I like it. Exactly. And then Dario Sarat's only 20 minutes in his debut with the Minnesota Tim Rulves. But I'm incredibly intrigued by how Tibido will use him. How do you think he'll be used in that situation? And do you think we'll see more playmaking one from Sarich like we did see overseas with him? I think that's the hope is long-term pairing him with pounds.

and kind of doing four or five pick and rolls and stuff. I don't know if Tibbs would be the guy to do that. But I think that is like the ultimate. That would be the way to maximize Dario. I think Dario really took a backseat in Philadelphia because I'm beating Simmons really couldn't shoot it. So he kind of forced to be a spot-up shooter. And he was born of those games in that.

Yeah, and he did solid. He did incredibly well last year. He shot 39% from three. Still made clutch timely plays, whether it was with a pass or whether it was on the defensive end of the floor, whether it was a clutch rebound. Sarich always has a knack for those. moments. But the one thing we really just haven't seen from him in the NBA consistently is the

passing. And like you said, John, we might not see this in Minnesota, but I'm hopeful we do. I really am. I think with that four or five front court with Towns and Sarich, it would be interesting to see that. You look beyond the fact that Covington and Sarge are these very, you know, modern NBA type players, blah, blah, blah. But you look at the core of who they are as players and it's like, oh, these are totally Tibido guys. Like, they work extremely hard. They're grinders.

They can basically do everything and they're tough dudes. And so I don't see an issue with Tibbs maybe not trusting them, you know, down the stretch or whatever like that. I would love to see more of Sarge and with, you know, the rest of the starters.

But... It's going to have to play Covington for less than 41 minutes to see what happens. Yeah, absolutely. We're basically looking. at Sarich being a better, tougher version of Nemanya Bialita who just didn't really catch on with Tibbs last year. Especially with Sarge, right? I think with Wiggins, his defense obviously needs

become more consistent as well for the mess of the Timberwolves. There's a handful of those guys on our team, but they do have a lot of tough players, right? You know, Josh Okie. Oh, yeah. He's playing well. He's been a good rookie year for sure. He's quite well.

And, you know, Tibido's a guy who doesn't play a lot of rookies, but he does seem to trust him early on so far this season. I, Okoge could end up a steal in this draft. And one of the random observation, Andrew Wiggins, off to another hot start shooting the ball this season. He's shooting threes, man. He's stroking it.

41.7% from three this season. I'm still skeptical. He started last year incredibly hot as well, and then he fizzled out. Yeah, Charks and I had kind of had side conversations about Wiggins, and I think we came to the consensus that, like, has he improved

since coming into the league? I mean, unless this shooting thing is real, other than that he hasn't at all. I'm not sure he really hasn't improved. No. I mean, still inconsistent defensively. Still a streaky score who doesn't do much besides pull up from mid-range. Yeah, pulling up from mid-range.

Still hasn't expanded his dribbling moves besides that spin move. Yeah. Not a lot of improvement. He loves that spin. Yeah, the circle button, right? Yeah. One of the things that really stuck out to me in the past when it was the core of Carl Anthony Towns, Wiggins, and Zach Levine, was that everything I'd heard from, you know,

the locker rooms and everything and report. orders talking about this, but it was Zach Levine was the maniacally hard worker. Andrew Wiggins was just like never really mentioned in that vein. And that really stuck out to me. It's like, Zach Levine has improved over his past three years. Much better.

Yeah. It's a much better player. Whereas with Wiggins, we're still kind of looking at, you know, this broad template of this hyper-athlete two-three win. Can I click for him? I mean, or I mean, look, for Victorola Depot to conceal year five. You know, Wiggins now is in year five. I don't think Wiggins will ever

have that sort of role, but I'm sure it can click for him because really, you're really just asking them to do two things. You're asking him to be a much more committed defender, and you're asking him to hit threes. If you can get those two things down, everything else can kind of open up organically, but we're still waiting on those two key elements of his game. And I think two of worth pointing out, like, if you look at this team the last two years, like Wiggins and towns, they were kind of force into roles, and they're like, okay, we're a contender. You've got to do X, Y, Z things to make the team better. You gotta buy into this role, do this, do that.

When they're like, we're 22, we should do whatever you feel like it kind of grow our game, kind of expand and flourish. And it's kind of flipping with Simmons and Embed in Philadelphia, right? Right, before it's like, okay, Simmons and Bede, shoot whatever you feel like, do whatever you want, who cares, or growing. Now it's okay, now you're with Butler,

now you've got to kind of confine your game and fit him. Now I think with like towns and Wiggins, you have a bunch of tough guys around them, and they can just jack shots now, right? So this team makes more sense for those two guys to do what the best they can do. And maybe when they're like 25, 26, they're ready to win. But right now it's like, let him just jackshot see what happens.

And one other note on Andrew Wiggins that's interesting. He started working this summer with Rob McClanahan, long-time NBA trainer. And he's the guy who's worked with Derek Rose this summer. And it's interesting. Rose, it's really his first healthy offseason in a while. And his shot, again, small sample, but looks improved. It looks more fluid. I think they worked out a little bit of a hitch at the top of his release.

His shot looks good, better than it has in many, many years for Derek Rose and for Andrew Wiggins and Derek Rose. Maybe there's something to that, working with a new trainer. Sometimes it's all it takes. It's like the right coach for the right team. Maybe these guys need the right trainer for them. Before we talk NBA sophomores, let's take a quick break and hear from our sponsors. Unleash the most powerful pixel ever on the network chosen by Google, Verizon. Pixel 3 has more than just any camera.

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And now, back to the corner three. We're back with the kids are all right, segment that we used to discuss the use of the NBA. I wrote an article on Tuesday on the Ringer.com about some of the rising and falling sophomores across the league, just a little bit of check-in on some of the players across the league. And we're to discuss some of those,

starting with DeAon Fox, who John, seems like he's here to save the Sacramento Kings, isn't he? I mean, they've kind of put their team around them this year. Like last year, they didn't know what they were really doing. They're playing Zibo a lot and Kufus. Now they have like a system. They have a formula.

We're getting Deeran in space. He's pushed them all whenever he feels like it. And now like they finally have a team that kind of makes sense together. And Deeran's kind of the head of the snake right now. The system is not playing old dudes. You get you get Deeran Fox who is arguably the fast. No, he is the fastest player in the NBA. And so you get this Ferrari.

And then you also get Zibo. And you're like, let's just pound it into Zibo last season. Like, I don't know what... I mean, Yeager had talked about playing fast last season and it just didn't work out. But this season, it was just a complete overhaul. It's like, yes, we got this guy at the fifth pick for a reason. Why not build around him?

It's working. He's the most improved sophomore in the season, isn't he? I would say so. I wonder, but I wonder how much of it is just his situation. I guess it's hard to find the difference, right? He's definitely a better situation than last year. It's hard to quantify that, for sure, John. You know, I'm sure a lot of it does have to do with situation.

I think some of it absolutely has to do with his own individual changes too. He's stronger this year. He clearly worked on his body this year. He's been better at drawing fouls at the rim. He's not avoiding contact quite as much. His finishing has been better. There's been some more creative finishes from him so far this season. He's drawing fouls on 16% of his half court possessions,

which is pretty similar to what DeMardo is and put up last year. And look, these are things he might not sustain over the course of the year, But early on, these are differences from just late last year with him that we didn't see before. And the thing is, the biggest change I've seen is just how confident he is stepping into these pull-up threes. And he's making them. My goodness. Yeah, he's hitting them at, what, like a 36% clip. So, like, league average, this is fine for a player who, you know, has basically been knocked on his jumper for how many years now.

And it's always looked good. It's always looked good. That's the really weird thing about five. Whenever we talk about his shot not falling or him not taking threes, it's always like, oh, but his shot looks good, he just doesn't take them. He's finally taking them now. For what it's worth, he is shooting 46.7% on 15, catch and shoot 3, so 7 and 15, and then on 28 pull-ups, he has hit 12 of them at 42.9%. There you go. Small sample that could fall off a cliff immediately. He's still not shooting well from the free throw line, but his floater looks better, his three-pointer looks better, and as you said, he looks more confident. to me he's absolutely the most improved rookie

there's been a disappointment though John who is the most disappointing sophomore so far the season gotta be our guy Josh Jackson man he is falling off hard he can barely get minutes on Phoenix and they're like the worst team in the league yeah McHale Bridges is now starting he's took his spot you know it's

it's sad really to me when guys fall off this quickly because Josh Jackson at Kansas was always a guy where you're like okay there's questions about his jumper you know there's questions about his scoring efficiency but at least he can do these things. At least he can be a solid secondary playmaker for your team, and at least he's always going to grind on defense. And he doesn't do it anymore. What happened,

Danny? To be honest, I don't know. I mean, I've been looking at the numbers as if that were going to tell me anything about this precipitous decline. But do you guys know what his PER is this season? No, what is it? It's 4.3. Whoa. That's probably the lowest PERR I've seen. from any like notable player like in the past like five years. That's a really, really low figure. I think what I'm thinking is like it's two things. Like one, like to be a secondary playmaker

means you have to start off the ball. And if Josh is off the ball, nobody cares, right? It's just not being guarded. Right. And the number two, like it's hard to grind defensively on a team like Phoenix where like they're just giving up points left right anyways. So he's like, man, to make an impact, I got to get the ball, to get the ball,

I'd take a bunch of bad shots. Like, I'm thinking, like, how many guys become good shooters in the NBA? Like, how many times do we draft a guy top seven? Oh, he's a great athlete, you know, a really athletic, big wing. He needs to work on his jumper. And I feel like that jumper doesn't get better for a lot of guys. Right. So I think the most recent example might be Jalen Brown, who isn't really a great shooter.

A solid shooter. Yeah, he's improved. He's definitely improved. Aaron Gordon, another one. Yeah, Aaron Gordon is a big one. But, yeah, other than that. And obviously just have to mention Kauai is like the best case scenario. Sure. The one everybody aspires to be.

I mean, you look at like Josh, Justice Winslow, Stanley Johnson. Not many. But I want to go back to something you said, John, about Jackson, where he's on a team where it's hard to put an effort because nobody is. The team is just bad. It's a bad team. The Phoenix Suns are going to be drafting high again. And that's kind of why I just don't get it with Jackson. He is somebody who your minutes are dwindling.

They are just fading away quickly. you are losing your spot to a rookie, Mikhail Bridges. And guess what? The team is going to stink and they're going to draft another guy who's pretty much at your position.

There's a lot of forwards and wings that are going to be drafted high in this draft. T.J. Warren has been better than Josh Jackson so far this season. He's been good this year. He might turn himself around and shoot threes now. He's hitting spot up threes finally. He's only 25.

I'd like T.J. a lot. That's what I mean. It's like Josh Jackson, this is adversity for you right here and you need to fight through this. You need to play hard on the defense. and set a tone for your team, like you did at Kansas, hustle for loose balls, rebound the ball.

I mean, it's just not there. It seems like there's a lack of focus with some of the little decisions he makes. Like, I had a play in the article where he's defending Russell Westbrook and he just bites on a subtle little fake. It's like there's just the effort's not there. Nothing's there. He's a zero right now. And he can't be or else he's going to lose his role.

And he might be the type of player who has his option declined and he might not get a chance with that second contract. like this is about more than just... It's gotten that bad? I mean, I'm just saying, like, if you're Josh Jackson, you're going to be thinking, damn, like, this could go sell fast for me unless I turn it around.

Time to start busting my ass on defense. It just hasn't happened. I mean, we're basically, yeah, as we've been saying, we're looking at one of the worst teams in the NBA. The fact that he hasn't been able to get even consistent low minutes is concerning. We're looking at a situation

that might be close to, you know, Michael Kid Gilchrist. Well, to be fair, though, they do have a lot of wings for as bad as they are. Like, T.J. Warren's a good player. They're a Bukker's an all-star near player. McHale Brits is a good rookie. They have Trevor Reza, too.

It's just a really weird team. So then would you consider bumping Josh Jackson to the four? He doesn't really have the body to do that right now. He can't do it. They tried it last year. I don't think he ever can. One thing to note, Josh Jackson on Wednesday night and the Sun's

win against the Spurs are a 20-point win over the San Antonio Spurs. Jackson played 22 minutes with 14 points, 4 rebounds and 3 assists. I haven't seen the game yet. Haven't had a moment to catch up on that this morning. Maybe he was better in that game. Wait. Just want to throw that out there because I haven't seen the game yet.

So his P.R was 4.3 after that game. What was it before the game? What on earth? That's a surprising stat. Danny, who is the most surprising sophomore so far this season? I think it's Monta Morris. Yes! Oh, deep cut. I like it.

I like it. Denver Nuggets. Back up point card. How come, Danny? First part is I wasn't really high on Morris entering the 2017 draft because I tend to kind of prioritize upside over production.

Right there with your, especially with an older point card like him. Right. But what we're looking at with Morris, especially in this season, is just a really solid player who literally does not make any mistakes. He currently has an 8 to 1 assist turnover ratio. It's so glorious. I mean, he has a career record holder

and CAA for sister turnovers. Yeah, that's, it's incredible. And I think there's kind of a trend here or a pattern. You really can't have too many glaring weaknesses or else these teams are going to just rip your head off. The more players who are comfortable, who know who they are and who basically can do everything

without necessarily exposing that many weaknesses, at the point guard position on the bench, the better. We're looking at guys like Fred Van Fleet, and even this year, a guy like Jalen Brunton, who is basically along the line to the same player. Even somebody like T.J. McConnell, who for a couple years, Sixers has been very important off their bench.

I mean, he's just a smart player. I think the concern with Monta is on defense in the playoffs. But, like, so there was a play in the Rockets game the other night. I'm watching it. And, like, the ball goes to Monta Morris and, like, the shot clock's winding down. He didn't take a bad shot. He gets back into the offense, gets into the lane, and then finds Jokic for an easy layup.

And I'm like, how many guards and Nuggets Rasha would have done that in that situation? I feel like he really fits a need for that team specifically. They need a guy who's to move the ball and get Jokic involved when he's not getting the ball. think that could be Morris. I think he got a big role. It's going to happen to Isaiah Thomas, though. You mentioned how he's a guy who just kind of moves the ball. I think that's what's weird about watching him.

For the article this week, Danny, we had like a Morris blurb in there that we cut because it was like way too long. But it's way too long. But like it's just funny watching Morris. Like I watched back all of his assist. And it's like there's like, whoa, what a pass. It's just like good, rock, solid, accurate passes delivered to his teammates.

Like there's nothing. Like, nothing is off target with him, but nothing is spectacular or flash either. He's just a rock-solid point card. That's what you want in a backup. And really, on that team, he's the only real traditional point card. He's basically filling in for what Jamir Nelson was two years ago, except he's, what, like four inches taller and a billion years younger. Yeah, absolutely.

I think when I say a Thomas and Will Barton come back, it's going to be very, very interesting to see what head coach Mike Malone does with that rotation. Because Yokic is your primary playmaker. at center position. But then you're going to have a glut of guards. You're going to have Jamal Murray,

who you mentioned earlier, John, with Gary Harris. And then you have Will Barton coming back, Monta Morris, who's been a stabilizer for them. And then Isaiah Thomas,

who you signed to be a spark plug score. I wonder, we talked about rotations earlier with Philadelphia, John. I can tell you, Morris is going to lose out his job,

which is too bad, but he's just going to lose his job. That's just a big reality. Unless it's a situation like with Brett Brown and T.J. McConnell,

where it's like, yeah, I just got to play him. but maybe you're going to make the sacrifice like Brown has this year with McConnell. He can shoot, though, at least. That's the thing TJ can't do is Morris can shoot it.

That's a big difference. McConnell's gotten better. It's solid. Not great. Solid. I mean, at this point, he's like a third or fourth stringer, so it's fine.

Yeah. I mean, when you're in Philly, you kind of lose track if he was a good shooter. Like, anyone can make a shot. He's a great shooter. Oh, yeah. Exactly. The barfers kind of gets twisted.

Yeah, when we're celebrating, you know, Foltz, anything he does. A nine-foot pull-up. Yeah. Oh, wow. Home run. Yeah. It gets kind of weird

listening to the Sixers broadcast because anything Fultz does positively. They're just like, oh, I like that. You know, it didn't go in, but, you know, at least he showed the gumption. It's the same thing with Simmons

right now that's here where Sixers fans just want him to shoot the mid-range pull-ups so it's at least a threat. Because right now it's not a threat. He's only shot in 18 pull-ups this year and he's only made one of them.

You've got to do more than that. Who is the most misunderstood sophomore, John? Okay, I gotta give some love. He's gotten a lot of fan the internet, an unnamed person in our company who may or may not sign our checks. He thinks Dennis is just complete trash. I think Dennis Smith,

he's had a very tough season, but I think people are underestimating how much he's had to make, going from the primary playmaker to plan with Luca. I think we've got to give Dennis a little more time. It's only been a month.

I think he's actually shooting the ball really well this season. And I think long term, he can fit with Luca and more of a two-guards. attacking guard kind of role. And I think this was going to happen in Dallas, but it's just a big transition,

and right now people are ready to write him off too quickly, I think. Luca has gotten better already this season on defense and on offense for that matter. On defense has gotten better. With the fit, can Dennis Smith be good enough defensively for that to work? I mean, maybe like in three years. I just think right now Dennis has become like a scoring guard. Like he's moving towards that role away from being a point guard.

But you're right, the defense, that's like a five-year issue. We're talking right now with just the offense. I don't know. I'm trying to define my man Dennis here. It's like Jabari Parker said you don't get paid to play defense anyway, right? So it's okay. Who cares about defense? I think for the next two years, I'm still going to be mesmerized by his athleticism.

And by the time his rookie contract ends, that's when I'll start to really look into his long-term fit in the league. I think at this point I'm still like, he's young, he's really athletic. He can kind of, he looks like, you know, a. star point guard of old. A Steve Francis type. But I'm saying a Steve Francis type of Luca would be pretty good. If he's, also, Dennis is going to play off the ball. That's the thing, too.

Dennis is not like, I got to make this my team versus Lucas team. He's willing to take a backseat to Luca, which I think is a big step right there for a young player. It can work between those guys. So, it can work. Is Campbell Walker the best case scenario for a guy like Dennis Smith? Yeah, something like that. Francis Walker, you know, slightly smaller spark plug scoring type of point card. A T-K, kind of guy.

I mean, those are all pass for him to take. That's a happy result for Dennis Smith. I think if you're Dallas, you're satisfied with that with the ninth pick. You're not, you know, you wish he could be Kyrie Irving, but he's probably not going to be that. Yeah, Kyrie's a guy like, don't let too many young guys play Kyrie. That's just going to get in their heads. And, you know, I don't need Dennis doing that much dribbling.

That's not going to work. Right. Let's throw an out a little pass to the weekend and look ahead at some of the top games. On Friday, we have the Raptors versus the Boston Celtics. the first time since the opening week of the season, those two teams face each other. Toronto has dropped two in a row, and Boston has been better as of late. Danny, is there anything specific you're watching for in this matchup of two top Eastern conference teams?

I think for the past two games, one thing that I've noticed with the Raptors is that we're definitely at a point where we're seeing Kauai pressured a lot more. And he's kind of prone to tunnel vision. There are certain plays in the Pelicans' loss where he was, basically just dribbling in circles for like 17 seconds. And I was just like, Kobe. What are we doing here?

So we're still not seeing him very comfortable being that kind of lead playmaker. And I would love to see that improve, especially against one of the best Eastern teams in the league. With Quile Leonard, of course, we need to see him develop his playmaking more. And one thing that I wonder that could promote that for him is what Nick Nurse mentioned this week. He said at a practice that he wants to play a lineup that has no traditional

point guard in it. So something like Pascal Seacum, Danny Green, Kauai Leonard, O. G. Ninobe, and Sergei Baca. No point guard. Oh my goodness. That's what I want to see. Just a big jumbo lineup and this is what Nick Nurse said. And you'll see that lineup and say, who's bringing the ball up the floor? And I'll say,

oh, well, maybe Pascal. Or maybe Kauai, maybe OG. That's what I want to see, John. I want to see point Pascal. That's interesting. I think it makes sense versus the Celtics as well because they kind of have a versatile switchy lineup where, aside from Kyrie Irving, they don't have a small

ball handler on that team, but everybody else can handle the ball. I think that's the team you should do it against John. Yeah, I want to see also, like, no center either. They can do a five wing lineup, and they can put, like, the lawn right out there. That'd be pretty, they could push all five positions. Basically, what I was thinking was this Nick Nurse lineup, proposed

lineup is Charks's fever dream, and Charks just immediately, which is like, no, we can add another wing. There could always be another wing. There's always more room for more wings. You know this. So who are you taking off the floor? You're taking off Ibaka and putting on a wing? I don't think Abaka can switch on guards, really.

He's been way better this year, though, I think. He looks rejuvenated. It definitely been better. So you would put miles in instead of Ibaka or what? No, I say Delon, right. So you go right, green, Leonard's, Yakima, OG. Delon might be a little too close to a traditional point guard for nurses. That's true.

We're getting a little, yeah, that's true. Either way. Maybe Norman Powell, I don't know. either way, whether it's against, if it happens against Boston, I think it'll be intriguing to see how Boston would adjust to something like that. Because I think with these jumbo lineups, I also want to see Boston do the same thing where they go without Kyrie Irving and they have a lineup of like Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Morris, Horford.

I mean, imagine that jumbo versus jumbo lineup. How is a scary Terry going to feel about that? I don't know that he's going to appreciate, you know, not being in the floor at all. Probably not great. I'm sure Kyrie wouldn't be happy if that happened for an extended period of time either. But for a short stint, five, six minutes, I would love to see those two large lineups play against each other because it can work because those guys can still handle the ball.

I think what's interesting with what Nick Nurse has done this season is he's been very proactive in terms of lineup adjustments. So I think... He's played 200 lineups this year, I'm pretty sure. And he's the only coach in the league who actually flexes his center spot in the starting lineup. And so he's obviously, I think if they were to do these two jumbo lineups together, it would be Nick Nurse, who's the aggressor.

he would be the one who's trying to dictate the matchup rather than the Celtics coming in with, I don't know, like, shemmy, Tatum, Brown, and whoever. But here's the thing, like, it sounds crazy, but in the playoffs, this is going to happen. Right. Like, it's a hunt of certainty. They're going to go to these lineups

when it really comes down to it. Because it's all about finding weak spots. It's all rooming weak spots finding on the other team. Speaking about lineup changes, the Utah Jazz have a road back-to-back. They face the Sixers on Friday night and then the Celtics on Saturday night.

Man, they lost like 50 points to the Mavs, man. Come on now. Hard to believe that happened. John, before the show, you mentioned how the one lineup that they needed to make is with Derek Favors. Yeah, I mean, they've tried it for a long time, and they fought against the current. It was very, very noble of them to reward favors for his hard work and sacrifice. It doesn't work anymore. Like, it just can't do it.

So the number I jumped out to me, I was looking at the numbers on this. When Gobert is on the court with favors, net rating 1.6. When Gobert is on the court without favors, net rating 7.4. That's just free points to be gotten for a 7 and 17. They have to do it. And then favors without go bare. They're outscored by 21.6 points for 100 possessions, and that's over 154 minutes.

So it's not a large sample for this point of the season. So basically the Jazz are running the same offense and same defense. And it's just teams have figured this out. I think it's more it's just like the league has become even more the other way. Like Utah was kind of half in half out with like this two big man lineup. And there are still enough teams who played traditional lineups that have made sense. But now the league is just so small, I just can't work anymore, I don't, I think. Yeah, we can't even play favors at the five.

Like, that was the conventional wisdom is, oh, well, you just kind of have to have to stagger these two centers. You can't do the Twin Towers anymore. And yet, in the limited minutes, the Twin Towers is doing way better than favors is at the five. One point Zach Lowe made on his podcast this week. That was interesting. Wait, there are pods of the ringer. Is he on a ringer podcast? I don't know.

I'm a company man. Zach mentioned how Utah's defensive shot distribution, in other words, the shots they're forcing opponents into or that they're allowing, is pretty much identical to what it was last season. And it is. I looked at cleaning glass.com, and there's no discernible difference.

Opponents are just hitting more shots. So at some point this year, I do think if that continues, Utah should be better defensively. Right now, they're closer to the middle of the pack. but they still have the same pieces they have in the past. They should be better conceivably at one point

during the course of the season, you would think. It's really interesting because, you know, continuity has really worked for the Blazers. You know, they're one of the best teams in the West, yet again. Zach Collins, one sophomore we didn't mention having a great year. Absolutely.

Shout out Collins Hive. And so with the Jazz, I think one big thing that we're all kind of waiting on is like, when are their three-point shooters going to show up? Like, I think Ingle's is the only person shooting above average in their rotation right now. And he's only shooting six threes a game.

So that's not going to make up for everything. Like everyone is shooting in the low 30s. That can't really work when your defense isn't holding up. Besides my guy, Alec Berks, he's killing it. He's more minutes, I think. Yeah. Like Quinn's ever liked Alex Burks? Alec Burks can play ball, man.

I enjoy that on this podcast we can get excited about talking about Alec Burks. But unfortunately, that's all we have time for today, guys. next week we're actually been recording on Tuesday and having a special Wednesday edition show. We won't be back next Friday. So we'll be back. We'll be back. We'll not watch basketball, maybe.

We will be back on Wednesday, though, so we're looking forward to next week. Danny, John, looking forward to next Wednesday. Thank you guys. Yep, as always. And thank you so much for listening to the Corner 3. Please give us five-star rating on iTunes. We get a beat Shea Serrano's Villains podcast.

So please give us a five-star rating. We need to beat Shea. This is very, very important. and make us all very, very happy. You make Kevin happy. I'm a neutral party here. We're going to be Shea for sure. I'm not even worried about her.

Love you, Shea. Yeah, I love you, too, Shea. Listen to the first episode. It was very good. Give that a listen. A special shout out to Bobby Wagner for producing the podcast and to my good friend, Elon, for listening to the show. Thank you again for listening.

We'll be back next Wednesday.