The Ringer NBA Show - Staying Busy in Retirement, Managing Team USA, and Investing in Women’s Sports With Grant Hill | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

Howard and Raja are joined by NBA Hall of Famer Grant Hill to discuss a multitude of things, beginning with his investment in women’s sports (5:30). They talk about him staying busy in retirement, handling Team USA controversies (31:40), the young core of the Atlanta Hawks, and more. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Howard Beck and Raja Bell Guest: Grant Hill Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get your. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media. That's at Ringer NBA. And check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history

of podcasting read on the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. It's the Real Ones Friday edition. Now we're back senior writer at The Ringer. He is Raja Bell. We are thrilled, honored, pleased to be joined by a basketball hall of famer, Olympic gold medalist, NBA team. TV analysts. Stick with me, folks. This resume is really long. Partner in the Atlanta Hawks ownership, investor in the Baltimore Orioles, managing director of USA Basketball. He was once in a nickelback video. I'm obligated to bring this up every time I talk to him. People sometimes

mistaken for Steve Smith. He is not Steve Smith. He is also a part owner of the Orlando Pride, which is playing for the championship of the National Women's Soccer League on Saturday. Good morning, Grand Hill. How are you, sir? Hey, good morning, guys. I'm honored to be here and tired from that introduction. I'm tired for the introduction. I need a nap now. No, I knew he was accomplished.

I mean, I got to, it was one of the highlights in my career, Howard. Like, I got to play with Grant. I'd been a fan forever. I had no idea that you were into that much shit, Grant. God, dog, bro. Like, that's a lot, dog. And two stud athletes in the family to keep up with as well. Man, that's a lot, man.

Good for you. He's making us look lazy. I know. Clearly, I can't say no. I didn't even get to like the, like, you know, Duke of board of directors or something and like 50 other boards of directors. And like, you must be in a lot of Zoom meetings, Grant. You know what? Thankfully, if there's any good that came out of COVID, it's the use of Zoom now.

And so that certainly helps. It helps that I've learned as I'm middle age. now to try to have some balance and be a little bit more disciplined with my calendar. So that certainly helps. But, you know, I kind of like my life now. I mean, I think I've been able to curate an interesting sort of post-playing career where, you know, sort of this cross-section between sports, business, and leadership and kind of playing in that sandbox and everything, for the most part, that I'm doing,

kind of falls into those categories. And so it's fun, it's challenging, it's stimulating, you know, all of it. And sometimes it's overwhelmed. I'll be honest, but I certainly enjoy this phase of my life. And, of course, as Rajas, the most important thing, being a frustrated little league parent, which might be the most challenging of them all. Not even a question. You're not the guy, like, right in, like, the 17-year-old umpire out.

there and stuff. Are you great? You're not like crazy little league guy. Well, um, you know, I have evolved as a as a little league parent and, uh, I had a bad moment a few years ago. And, uh, I, I, I went out onto the field, just a few steps and, and yelled at the official. And, uh, and my daughter said, don't ever do that again. So, um, so I have, you know, and this is the three time NBA sportsmanship award winner. Um, So that, but my thing with, at least with soccer, it's just about protecting the kids from getting hurt. I don't care if you miss a call, if it went off on the other team or an handball that you didn't call. I just worry when you let things escalate and potentially someone could get hurt.

That's my only issue. That's when I get frustrated. That's fair. No doubt. So a lot of things we could talk to you about, including our pre-show. pre-taping discussion of how Raj and I could get rid of bags under our middle-aged eyes. He has, but look, he has none. Look, I know it's possible.

It's not fair. You didn't come straight from, like, makeup at the studio or something. Did you, Greg? It's like, you're looking way better on camera than Rajah and I are on this morning. No, I actually came from the dentist. So maybe that's the trick. We have it. So, but I want to start.

here this weekend Saturday, Saturday night, 8 o'clock on CBS and I think Paramount Plus, your Orlando Pride of the NWSL are playing the Washington Spirit for the championship. I think you and Tamia just joined this ownership group like a year ago. And here we are. Year later, instantly, you're in a championship game. Clearly, you guys are doing something right as an ownership group. What was the magic touch? And what's it like, what's it going to be like, you think, being able to be involved from your vantage point in this big game Saturday night? Well, of course, Tamia and I would like to take all the credit for our success this year. But I'll say this.

At first, it started off. We were fans. And we have our youngest daughter who was playing soccer. She was nine, 10 years old. And, you know, as a parent, you want them to see women at the highest level to inspire them. Not thinking that they would ever, you know, play at that level. but just to be able to see women at the highest level. And so we started going to games.

And we would kind of hang out there, you know, at the after games and look for autographs. And my daughter has pictures with, you know, Marta and Alex Morgan who played with the team, Ali Krieger, you know, all these legends that were on the team, you know, six, seven years ago. And then all of a sudden you start getting hooked. You become a fame. And you really are into it. You're watching it.

You're following it. And then there was an ownership change. and the Wilf family led by Mark Wilf, who also they own the Minnesota Vikings. You know, they came in as owners. And as you're starting to see a trend, I think, in the NWF, South, in the WNBA, where, you know, professional owners, as I call them, owners who've been operators of some of the traditional major sports franchises now are jumping in and seeing the opportunity in women's sports. And so it just brings, it elevates everything. And so there's been new leadership with our CEO, Jared Dillon, obviously Haley Carter, our general manager, and then Seb Hines, who was just named NWSL Coach of the Year.

They came in and really in a short period of time in two years, you know, sort of built the culture, created an environment where, you know, the players enjoyed playing for and with one another. Marta, who's 38 years old, I think she got re-energized, she got healthy too. and then we kind of swung for the fences this offseason. We brought in Barbara Banda, who may end up being the MVP of the league this year from Zambia and just had a magical season and have a team that, you know, like when Raja and I, when I was fortunate to join Raja and that team in Phoenix,

there was just a great spirit in that locker room. And I think there were championship expectations. unfortunately, not everyone can win a championship, but it was a championship environment. And I think part of what made those teams so endearing was you saw that. You saw the way they play, we play, they play. You saw how we care for each other.

We shared the ball. We had fun, and we enjoyed and applauded each other and each other's success. And I feel like this team has done that this season. So, you know, we'll take all the credit for it, my wife and I, but certainly we understand as fans. and maybe as glorified fans in the ownership level now, it's really been a great thrill to be a part of and watch.

And, you know, we just need one more game Saturday night. And, you know, we can bring the first professional sports championship to the city of Orlando. Man, that's awesome, Grant. You touched on a lot of the things that I was going to kind of encompass in this next question. So bear with me as I kind of parse through it. Like, you touched on, you know, culture, obviously, you know, talent in terms of overall health from your better players and an infusion of more talent.

You touched on kind of the culture when you have ownership coming from different levels in terms of your major sporting leagues and investing in women's sports and all of that contributes to it. What do you think was brought from the higher level of sports? You know, playing in the CBA, the USBL leagues like that, right, which were smaller not invested in leagues at the time. While the NWSL is not that, it's certainly not the NBA. What type of things do you think were brought from those ownership groups and yourself and Tamia that might have helped just kickstart the rest of that? You know, that's a great

observation and a great question. And I kind of liken, when you think of sort of the traditional big professional sports, you know, the NBA, the NFL, Major League Baseball, NHL, first and foremost, they've been around for, you know, for quite a long time. The NBA recently, like a few years ago, celebrated a 75-year anniversary. You know, we know the NFL, baseball, all of that. So it's kind of grown, and I think it's become a part sort of of our society and part of, we build an emotional connection with fans, with audience, you know, we're accustomed to watching football on Sundays. Like, it's just a part of our routine, a part of our way of life. And so I look at those leagues, almost like a major Fortune 500 company that's established,

that's been around, that's proven value over time. And then I look at some of these women's franchise women's leagues, in particular the WNBA, which just over 25 years, you look at the NWSL, a shorter time frame. They're like startups in a way, you know, and so, and I think what's happened is both And I think we're going through a moment and hopefully a movement where, you know, it's starting to resonate. It's starting to catch on. You know, Roger, you've been around basketball, obviously, and soccer, you know, for quite a long time. But the WNBA, like, there's been some incredible players in the WNBA. I think of Cynthia Cooper and the incredible feast that, you know, accomplishment she had with the comments in the late 90s, you know, Lisa Leslie, you know, Candace.

But now people are really paying attention to the WMBA and not taking anything away from today's players or players of the past. It just takes time, I think. And I think what happens is you bring in leadership. You bring in a commissioner like Jessica Berman and the NWSL who was a part of the NHL. And so has worked and learned and studied and understands how to take the league to the next level. You look at the Will family. You know, they can come in and provide the resources. the vision. They can challenge our organization.

You know, they can hire the right kind of people who are going to be able to execute on their vision. And so just sort of professionalize these startups in a way. And you're seeing that not just with the Orlando Pride or the Orlando City, but you're seeing it, you know, across the board in NSL. And so, you know, I say there's a moment, but it's really a movement. And sort of the the comparison or what have you between a startup and a major corporation. So we're on, we're on that on upward trajectory as in women's sports and in the NWSL in particular. And so it's an exciting time.

I'll just say this. One last thing on this, we're not one last, but when we bought the hawks in 2015, I tried to buy in 2017 the Atlanta Dream. And, you know, I just,

My daughter at the time was playing basketball. I felt like, wow, you know, I can get, and doing this separate from the Hawks, it would be a separate sort of investment. And so, you know, I felt like there was still room for growth. And I felt like there was a tremendous upside. And I probably could have bought the team for $3, $4 million at the time. You know, now you can't get into the WNBA unless you're, you know, you're writing a nine. figure check. And so the intention was right. They just didn't want to sell it at the time. And so it's just interesting where we are. We've passed that inflection point, I think, when women's sports. And it's

exciting. And it's, you know what? It's long overdue. It is long overdue, Grant. And I was curious, when you see the way that women's basketball has broken through, not just at the WMBA level, but the women's at the NCAA in the tournament. It is part of the zeitgeist. It's part of the discussion. It is just part of the fabric of our sports conversation now the last couple of years. And it's not that there weren't other moments, but it feels like this is the moment now where it's really broken through.

What do you think it's going to take, whether it's for the NWSL or other women's leagues? And maybe speak to soccer first since you're involved. But like, is it about a singular? figure or a few singular figures as athletes who break through commercially and whether it's the personality, whether it's the aesthetics of their game. I don't know if there's any real answer here. I think if we brought on like the smartest branding specialist in the world, they might not have an answer for this. But I'm curious what you think from an up close view. Like what does it take to have the NWSL kind of enter that level now that we're seeing the WMBA?

Yeah, you know, it's a good point. First of all, the WNBA's been around longer. So there's familiarity, even if you were just in a casual observer through the years. There's familiarity, I think, with the brand, with the association, with basketball, with the NBA. You know, I don't know if there's a moment. I mean, I don't know if there's a, you can attribute some of the success. I mean, some may say it's more or less, but Caitlin Clark. I mean, certainly what she did in college and how that's careful.

carried over. I think it's her and I think it's others, other players and just, you know, momentum that's occurred on the, on the WMBA side. But, you know, I think like a lot of business, it's just kind of sowing wood. It's just making good decisions. It's putting out there a good product. It's marketing and selling and promoting the league. You know, one of the things that used to frustrate Tamia and I when we would go is, you know, we'd go to our games and you had Alex Morgan, who's, you know, one of the great players of her time, and Marta, who is probably the greatest woman's soccer player ever. And, you know, they're on this team, and it's less than half full in the stadium. But then when the national team comes to town and has an exhibition

game, you sell out. And, okay, so clearly there's an appetite for the game. Clearly, people in our market are following the game. There's more young people at the grassroots level who are playing soccer in our country than basketball, football, and baseball combined. So something hasn't translated. Now, maybe one could say that, you know, American sports, we like the scoring, we like the numbers, we like touchdowns and points, and, you know, a soccer game, it might be a two-old game. And so it doesn't necessarily translate or resonate. But I will say, if you take the time to really watch and really dive in, it is really truly a beautiful game. And I'll joke.

I mean, you know, Roger's here, and I remember our time together in Phoenix. And we were really on some incredible teams and teams that were fun to watch as fans. And, you know, there might be a moment in a game when we were playing at home. And, you know, Roger hits a three. And Amari gets a dunk and, you know, Matrix does something and we go on a 9-0 run and everybody's going crazy in the stadium. And we're going back to the bench. And I look up at my wife who the family section is behind the bench and she looks bored out of her mind. And she's like, I'm only here because I have to be here.

Like that was like the energy she gave. And now I see her as soccer games. And she's like crazy. She's screaming at the official wanting a yellow card. She knows and understands the game. She is a fan. And so I always say, if it can convert to Mia Hill, then it can definitely convert the casual sports observer.

And so you just have to really give it a chance. But I don't know if I answered your question. I just think it takes work, marketing, promoting, you know, getting the media rights partners on board. You know, the game will be on national television Saturday night. And hopefully we look up over time and we see that we're moving. in the right direction and creating value and also resonating with the audience at home. Well, I think you certainly will.

You know, it's interesting, right, because you touched on time, right? And with time, a couple of things that I thought were really interesting. Our appreciation for soccer just as our appetite for it, our understanding of it, our viewership, just by the country at large, like I think we're behind in that regard. So the true appreciation for a one-nill game and what's going on within that game without all of the goals and touchdowns and buckets, like I think is lost on some people. But I do think over time, like my daughter, Kaya is seven now. No one told me what a seven-year-old travel soccer was going to entail in terms of time and commitment. But I digress with that. But like she's going to games. And, you know, she knows these stars in the league.

And she's tapped in in a way that when, you know, she matures and is coming through high school and has an opportunity to go to games. Like, you know, that generation, you know, is going to be way more exposed and have a much greater appreciation for pro leagues here in the U.S. as far as, you know, women's soccer are concerned, right? And, and I would say, like, you know, Cindy, my wife, who had an opportunity to play pro soccer in Japan when she came out of college and didn't want to do that because she was like, I'm not going to Japan. Like, this didn't exist. You know, there was no opportunity for her. her here. So she goes into the teaching force into the workforce in a way that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that women who are stars in their

respective leagues won't have to do now. And then the last lead, because I'm fortunate to be around a lot of, you know, great athletes in South Florida, one of our family friends plays in one of these premier soccer programs. Um, she's at University of Miami playing now, but a lot of her teammates that I watched come up. They are with NWSL teams right now. Like in, in, in, in that, at that club level. So these women have real opportunities, and you're already seeing the fruits of it. It's just going to take the time, like you said, right, for Kyah's generation to come up. And then the next generation where this is what they know they've been able to consume it since the time they were little girls and boys. You know, you're spot on. One, it's inspiring that next generation of young girls, but also boys.

I mean, I've seen, you know, Marta, she had a goal last weekend. It was sick. I mean, first of all, she's 38 years old. It's crazy. It's still playing at this incredible level. I had an ACL injury, too, a few years ago and still back and doing it. And like the boys that were sitting, like, just like, oh, my God, did you see that? Like that. So that's great for young girls. There's also that, you know, great for young boys to see that.

But one of the things, as you look at this young generation and you look at our consumer, you look at our customers, first of all, the price point is, you know, is cheaper. It's cheaper to go to a game than go to an NBA. game. And you're bringing in a younger audience. There's a different energy. You know, it's, it's, as you have this Gen Z and millennial audience, you know, the thought is as they get old and as they, you know, now the next, you know, 20, 30 years, you get them when they're young. And then, okay, now as they get older, they continue to support. And now they go from the cheap seats to the suites, you know, they have the wherewithal. And so it's a long-term.

play, a long-term approach, but I feel like even in the last five years, as it relates to women's soccer, it's just incredible momentum. And so it's fun to be a part of. And watch out and good luck with girls travel soccer. It's a full-time job. Great. Hey, great. No, all jokes aside, man, this was, we weren't seven at the time she was six. And I said that my wife, as we're juggling these schedules and we're sitting down, we're like, all right, well, someone's got to be here and someone's to be there. And I'm like, Cindy, how is it possible that she has the busiest, most demanding schedule of all of these jokers, man? And two of them are in high school. It's crazy, but they get it in. And their skill level, I mean, Grant, I mean, this transcends soccer. I mean, basketball the

same way. But it's an incredible. You sit down and watch the game at that age. And some of these kids' skill level is just incredible. It is off the charts. I mean, it's incredible. But once again, it's being inspired. It's seeing, you know, I was, believe it or not, I was a soccer player growing up, and I realized that I had a better chance of being Dr. J than Pele. But part of it was you couldn't see it anywhere. You couldn't really consume it. I mean, once the NASL folded in the early 80s,

you know, I remember I would, there was a station growing up in the DMV area where you could, you know, find this cable station. And like in the morning, they'd show German soccer on Sunday mornings. That was the only opportunity to really watch it. And so now to be able to see it, to be able to have players from your children's program eventually move on and play professionally. And there's a number of women's professional leagues.

It's not just the NWSL, the USL. I know Canada is coming out with a professional team. I'm sure Mr. Nash will own a team. And, of course, a lot of the English Premier League teams overseas have women's professional teams now. So it's not just the NWSL, but to have those options, which Cindy didn't have,

I just think it's really, really important and really powerful. No doubt. Sometimes in basketball, 30 points could be worth more than 30 points. And now you can get a 30% profit boost from the ringer with Van Duel's 30 on 30 during Friday's NBA Cup action.

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present in D.C. Opt-in required bonus issued as non-witrable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.Fandul.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or visit rg dash help.com. Great. So I'd be curious about this, right? So you're, obviously you've been a partner in the Atlanta Hawks for a long time here, more recently, you know, for the Orlando Pride.

What, like, can you just like, what's the briefest description you could give to people, like what that means to be a part owner of these teams? Because I think, especially on the NBA side, we think, well, all right, you know, great's a basketball legend. So, like, he's not going to be just an owner. He's going to be pretty hands on. He's probably talking to the front office. If players wanted to come to you as a mentor figure, that makes a lot of sense.

But I don't know how much of that actually goes on. And I am a little curious about that. But then as I kind of extrapolate to the soccer side, all right, you were not a soccer player, but you were a pro athlete at the highest level in your sport. And I wondered like, okay, are they recognizing you as such? Does that make you a resource for them at all? Or is this just simply like, you cut a check, you sit in the owner's suite, you have some, some nice food and cheer.

Like, what's, could give me a sense of like what these two roles as owner, a part owner of these two teams means? Well, let me start by saying I do like nice food. So that there are perks. There are. You know, the role of ownership is interesting. And how do you evaluate yourself, you know,

what exactly are your responsibilities as an owner? And, you know, there's some who maybe are two hands on, you know, and wink wink, Roger. And maybe there's some who are two hands off. And so it's a delicate balance.

You want to be visible. You want to show the organization. You want to show the basketball department. You want to show the fan base that you're engaged. But you don't

want to be maybe too visible. And so it's a tricky thing there. But, you know, I think for me, I respect the work that goes in to a basketball department. And there are three sort of major events that you're preparing for throughout the season. And Roger can speak to this maybe better than I can. Obviously, you had worked in the front office for a period of time.

But it's the trade deadline. It's the draft and it's free agency. And then, of course, there's the other side, I think, where you're managing. people and you're managing ownership, you're managing your staff, coaches, players, agents, whatever. I guess I've taken the approach, particularly on the basketball side,

and with something that I really truly know, then unless I'm willing to, like, dive in 100% and say everything you listed in my resume during the introduction, I'm going to walk away from, and I'm going to jump into basketball

full time. You know, it's hard for me than to just come in at the draft, the night of the draft, and say, we should do this. I'm disrespecting the incredible amount of work that goes into a front office. And I'll say this,

since I joined the league 30 years ago, the work in front offices now is much more sophisticated, much more complicated than what it was in the mid-90s. Shoot, what it was when Rajah and I played together in the 2000s. I mean, it's much, much different.

And I just have a health healthy respect for that. So maybe I should lean in a little bit more, but I haven't kind of found that right balance maybe with Atlanta and with the Hawks and being a resource on that front. And I've probably done more with the business side and, you know, dealing with corporate sponsors and, you know, certainly we had an arena initiative and things of that nature. And so now, with the Orlando Pride, it's different. And it's interesting because our general, manager, Haley Carter, absolutely phenomenal. I mean, she was a Marine. I mean, she has this an awesome bio. And I would recommend you guys maybe one point bring her on your show. But she and I talk

often about leadership and, you know, the role of being a general manager, being managing director with USA basketball. And so those conversations about, you know, creating culture, about, you know, hiring and inspiring people, about understanding even something as simple as your presence. Sometimes your presence can cause damage. You know, sometimes you need in a position of authority to give people space. Yeah. Anyway, she was a great resource for me, and I hope I've been a great resource for her. But, you know, to be able to lean in on that.

And then, of course, some of the marketing and selling of the team locally, getting butts in the seats, doing things with our foundation. So it might be easier at times because I live in Orlando to be connected as engaged. So it's just tricky. I mean, every partnership, every investment is different. But I think sometimes on the basketball front, I just, I may offer my suggestions. question, but I've always encouraged people and the process to go through that process. And, you know, you got to hire people, you got to empower them, but you also have to allow them to succeed or to fail. And it's hard to evaluate people when you're constantly telling

them what to do. And unfortunately, sometimes in professional sports, that happens. Yes, it does, Grant. We know all too well. I can't imagine who you guys might be alluding to winking and implying without actually naming. Can't imagine. No one can figure that out. That's interesting, right? Hawks and Pride, you talk about having one role. And then obviously with Team USA, that's more hands-on role, right?

So, you know, that one's interesting. Do you enjoy one more than the other? Can you talk to maybe was there was there, or speak to? Did you have to learn how to get back hands-on when you took over Team USA in a way that you weren't really with Atlanta? Was there any hiccup there, you know, in that role? You know, it's a great question. And, you know, signing on and taking that role with USA basketball, it's interesting. And, you know, first of all, there's the planning process, you know, where you start to, first of all,

evaluate sort of what's been done over the last, you know, 10 years. And then, okay, where can we improve? You know, it's almost like pressing the refresh button in some ways. I think, you know, I learned from Coach Kay every seven to eight years, he told me, you know, he presses the refresh button. And what he, I guess what he means by that is let's evaluate the program. Let's evaluate the landscape. And let's figure out ways where we can get better. I don't know if you feel comfortable. I'm sorry, Grant. Like what I'd be interesting. to know what your value, like what did you think? Like, what was like a number one thing we got to get better at as Team USA?

Well, I think two things. One, how we prepare our coaches for what they're about to embark upon. And so can we formalize that? Can we, you know, can we really sort of embrace this idea of creating a blueprint? When you walk in and you've never been a part, of this. And look, this was my first hurrah as well. It's so hard to sort of really understand what it is until you go through it. And so can we create a process? Can we create almost like a blueprint or a manual and we can give to them to sort of help them prepare and get the team ready for what they're about

the embarkable? And what I mean is I think the casual fan thinks basketball is just basketball, Whether you play at the park, you play at the NBA, or you play in FIBA. But the FIBA game is so very different. And we are attempting to change some habits that might work in the NBA, but don't necessarily translate in FIBA competition. And so we have a short window. We have three weeks to get ready. And then you're bringing in talents. And so everything is accelerated.

So that was one thing. Another thing, and it was a little bit controversial, I think, but eliminating the tryouts for the World Cup. And so historically, we would have tryouts for the World Championship, which later became the World Cup, and then we would select the Olympic team in the Olympic years. What happened in 2019, and the feedback that I received was that, you know, guys didn't want to try out. guys wanted assurances. Some guys even left before the final cuts. And so when you really unpack that, you wonder, okay, well, why? You know, why is that the case?

And, you know, you could say, look, these kids today have had different experiences than you and I, Roger. And, you know, I think some of it's the embarrassment of getting cut. Sure. And, and you can, you know, you can decide if that's good or bad. but they're in a different world. The noise is so loud. And the Twitter and the social media and all of that, you know, that can impact them. And so, okay, you know, maybe we need to pivot.

And I'm not giving you the full sort of explanation. But those were two things, I think, that, you know, from consulting with everyone who's been a part of it for a long time, maybe we can tweak it here or there. And so those were two areas. But, you know, there's the preparation part, and then there's actually being in the fire, you know, and that part was absolutely exhilarating. I mean, it was fun, it was hard. It was great to just be part of the team, like just little things like getting on the bus, going to practice, film session, you know, all of that. I didn't realize just how much I missed that part of it. But it was awful hard.

I mean, it was it was not easy. There was incredible pressure. I don't think I ever felt that kind of pressure before in my life. It's like taking a test and either you get an A or an F, which, you know, which, you know, maybe has happened a few times in my life. But, you know, it was, it was, but it was everything. Like, of all the things that I'm doing, absolutely positively, I enjoyed that the most, particularly when we won. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Winning's nice.

Gold medals are nice. And yet, Grant, like, it's funny because I'm sure people will remember the gold medal. They will remember Steph in the championship game. They'll remember all the good parts. But this was also a summer where it was always, you know, the discussion of Jalen Brown not being on the team, Jason Tate. him and Steve Kerr not playing him in certain games. You guys having to send Kauai Leonard home, which, by the way, the longer this goes on with Kauai not even playing for the Clippers right now, the more it looks like probably

the right decision. I don't think anybody questioned it at the time, but there was some grumbling. An amazing amount of controversy for a team that won the freaking gold medal. And Rajah and I talked about this over the summer. Like, I was of the opinion, and Raj and I disagreed a little bit on some of this. But like, I was like, if you win a gold medal, I don't care about the redel. rest of it. The rest of this is just bullshit. It's just stuff to put on the debate shows. I get there's some real stuff here with bruised egos and everything, and I'm not dismissing that.

But you win the gold medal. That's the point of the exercise. Having had some time to reflect on this, and I don't know if you and Jalen Brown have been able to talk and clear the air at all since, what did you come away with, aside from the glow of winning at all, in terms of just managing it, managing those controversies, having to figure out how to navigate those controversies as the head of USA basketball. Where are you on all those things? And I am curious if you and Jalen have spoken about. Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting. First of all, there were many things to manage that didn't come out. I'm making a note of that. I'll start walking around. When you write your book, we can talk. I'm joking. So, you know, it was tricky.

I think going into this because of the star power on this team that I think I was aware that there'd be a tremendous amount of scrutiny about this team. And, you know, for whatever reason, we don't have the same attention span or maybe we don't care as much here in the States about the World Cup as we do the Olympics. And so, you know, we went through the World Cup and, you know, it was almost like nobody really cared in some of. respect. But going into this with LeBron and Stefan Curry, you know, Durant, just an incredible roster. You knew, okay, there's going to be scrutiny.

You know, I think you know, if you guys were, you know, with the Jalen Brown thing, like, first of all, I'm a fan of his. Like, I've liked him. I've liked, you know, his game. I've loved his game. I don't know him that well, but all that I've ever read about him or heard

about him was really you know, positive. I like the moves he's made off the court. I like, you know, he has a tremendous intellect. He's not afraid to be who he is. I mean, a lot of things that are admirable about him on and off the court. And putting together the roster, you know, we had the process of putting 41 names together for the pool of players in January.

And then selecting from that, you wish you could put 20 guys on the team. You know, I mean, that's for, because you're a fan of all of them. them. And I think, one, people mistake that, okay, you don't have somebody in a team and you don't like them. I think that's not true. I think also there's sort of this idea that, well, it's, it's an award for what you did during the season. We should take the 12 best players and just go off and play. And this is not an all-star team or game. Like, you're trying to assemble a roster and you're trying to sort of fill holes, you're trying to provide for what you'll see in the FBA game.

You know, one of the most important players on our team, you know, one of the top three priorities going into this was Drew Holiday. And, like, you know, his game translates on the FIBA stage, his physicality, his toughness, his understanding of who he is in his role, what he does defensively. Like, his game, more than anyone at the Guard. the point guard position.

So we were lucky to have him. But here's the thing. With the Jalen Brown situation, if you guys were to ask me, hey, Grant, you know, what was it like growing up on Mars? I probably would respond with a joke because I don't think that's,

like that's not true. That's not, that's false. And so when I was asked about sort of this idea that, you know, according to what he may have said or tweeted, I kind of replied, like, no, what are you talking about? Like, you know, I'm locked in. I'm worried.

I'm not getting any sleep. I'm not paying attention to the noise. And so, you know, in hindsight, maybe I could have been a little bit more tactful and maybe a little bit more sensitive with my response on that. You know, and look, regardless of what I feel, this is how he feels. And this is what he believes. And so, yeah, I mean, I think there was a lesson learned on my part. It doesn't change the fact that that, let me be careful what I say and how I say it, that theory that was presented was false. Like, that's just not true.

But that probably should have been one-on-one in a conversation with him. You know, the Kauai Leonard thing, I mean, you know, I don't want to get too far into that because I know there's sensitivities. you know, he just wasn't right. And, you know, we don't have time to see how this plays out. Everything is accelerated in a six-week window. And I was sad that he didn't get this opportunity to be a part of something special. And then the Tatum thing was just, you know, it was... You just plain cur for that one.

That's not even on you. Yeah, that's completely... Yeah, no, I mean, but, you know, it's unfortunate. And, you know, I think what I got a taste of was the noise. I got a taste of and how it impacts everyone and how it's hard to shut off. You know, back in the day, you know, the noise was the media. And there was an editorial process, you know, there was the vetting of stories. And, you know, it was baked in some truth for the most part.

And sometimes there were columnists like Howard would take a shot at you. But for the most part, there was truth. I'm joking when I say that. But there was true. Now the noise and something that goes viral may not be true. And I think, you know, how it applies to the Tatum thing, I just think there's so much noise out there that these guys are so guarded now and are so careful. And they don't have maybe the same rapport with the media that we had 20 years ago

because there's just a lack of trust. And so the noise was deafening around that. Um, look, you know, it was a weird set of circumstances. We had a very talented roster. Durant came back and then caught fire, you know, in that first game against Serbia. And I think, you know, Kerr wanted to ride him. Like, let's go, you know, and, you know, and they had history and it didn't necessarily end great with Durant leaving. And so, and then you kind of look up and it's the fourth quarter and it's like, man, like, I didn't play Tatum.

And so, you know, it's a tough situation. Maybe that's on me because I put too much talent on the roster and with talent comes expectations. But, you know, look, if you go back to the 2018, you had Carlos Boozer, Tashon Prince, and Michael Redd at the end of the bench. You went with a nine-man rotation. If you go to 2021, that Olympic gold medal team, you had Javelle McGee, who was a fill-in.

You had Kelton Johnson a fill-in. had Jeremy Grant. He had a nine-man rotation. You know, we had 10 Hall of Famers, you know, and it got tricky. And so, look, I mean, Joelle M.B. didn't play against South Sudan. And, you know, he was able to bounce back and play very well for us down to stretch. But there were going to be sacrifices. And so, you know, look, you got to make tough decisions as part of leadership.

But you also have to do what you feel is. best for the team and try to protect the team. And the one downside is that, and this is on me, I'm a steward of the program, and any bad news is bad as far as I'm concerned for the program. And so, you know, I have to sort of repair some things between now and the next competition. And I look forward to that. And but you can't please everybody. And that's the tough part. of this job and this responsibility. That is a very tough part. And forgive me for my ignorance about the actual Jalen Brown. Like I don't really know what happened there. You referenced like the exchange and stuff. I don't know much about that. But, you know, Howard and I on the show did talk about.

Roger, Jalen, just a refresher. Jalen had blamed this on Nike, basically. And so, and then when Grant was asked to address it, he referred to it as, I'll just say, Grant, a conspiracy theory, which then Jalen took offense to. And so that was. I got you. Yeah, okay, okay. That was the new cycle. Yeah, I got you. Well, I just speak to like Jalen. You know, Grant, what I found interesting a lot, I found interesting.

I'm going to touch on, but the momentum coming off the finals, because I was a person that was like Jalen Brown should be on that team, right? Now, you're, you know, coming off of the finals and the momentum that sweeps you up with that and how well he played in that, but didn't probably give you the benefit of the doubt of how hard it is to build an actual team. like not a collection of talent, not an all-star team, but a team that has pieces that are that are able to move around the chessboard in a way that would counter what a Serbia might do or someone, you know, and, you know, I think a lot of people probably fell into that.

Because if you said talent for talent, like we can, okay, I got it. But when you're telling me like Drew Holiday and different pieces, I see the value. I was a player that provided a certain kind of value. So if anyone could see that, like I could see that. And I didn't give the overall selection enough credit in that regard, right? But, you know, I'm swept up like a lot of people are in that. No, no, but that's fine. Like, look, look, I mean, my thing is I would have felt better if Jalen Brown or anyone, like,

was critical of my ability to assemble a roster or my judgment. Like, that's up for debate. And you know what? There's different ways to approach this. I'm not saying my way is the only way. I think the thing where it bothered me with that sort of theory, I'll say, is that, you know, like, you're questioning my integrity now. And you're saying that, like, I'm a pawn. And, like, I wouldn't take this job unless I had full autonomy.

I mean, Jerry Colangelo. I mean, he preceded me. Jerry is doing what Jerry wants to do. And no one's telling Jerry what to do. And so no one instructed me to, you know, to. And so that was the thing that was a little bit bothersome on my part. If you want to debate the rock, like, that's fine. I mean, I, you know, I, but I will just sort of walk you through real quick.

When we showed up, Tatum showed up late because he was having, you know, his significant other was having a child. So he showed up late. Durant had a calf injury. And there was a lot of PTSD because he had had a calf injury in 2019. 19. So we were very cautious with him. And then Kauai was struggling a bit. He was trying to find his way. So we ended up looking at our team a little bit differently. And we started to play Bam with Anthony Davis in practice. And we loved it. Like these guys are big. They can defend. They were playing well and had good chemistry on the offensive end. It was like, okay,

you know what? Instead of maybe one of them being insurance for Joelle and B, we might have, we might have stumbled into something that we might not have seen if everybody was there and everybody was healthy. And so that was one thing. And then because of the health situation, we thought, you know, Holiday, he gets hurt and he's 34 years old. And, you know, Steph, as great as he is and as Halliburton, they're not known for their defense. For that, right. Although Steph is a much to improve defensive player than what he was 10 years ago. So let's bring in a Derek White as a point guard who can just almost insurance and almost someone that does a lot of the same things that that Holiday does from a defensive standpoint.

And I'm also just kind of mindful, and I've used this analogy and forgive me if you've heard it before, but it's like a piano recital. And in order to put on a piano recital, you need a piano mover, you need a piano tuner, and you need a piano player. And you can't have all players. And so you have to have roles. And so that was sort of the approach. But I'm not saying that's the best.

I mean, there's other approaches, and there may be other ways to success. But that's how I kind of looked at things. And here's the thing. I mean, we had a hard time getting Tatum on the floor. Right. And so now you add another similar player who can be a three, four, maybe even a two.

It just, it was a bit of a long jail, you know, and, and so that was, you know, okay, we didn't replace Kauai Leonard with the exact, you know, Jailen Brown is almost, you know, same build, the same size, you know, similar but different skill sets, but maybe a younger, healthier version of Kauai. So yeah, the natural thing is to look to Jalen. And I did. I mean, I gave it a lot of thought, but I just felt like we had too many guys there and we needed better balance and we needed something particularly what Derek White gave us. Now, I get it. You're

the MVP of the finals. You got three teammates on the team. You know, the opposite, all of that. Like, I understand the emotion and the feeling behind all that. But please, make no mistake. Like, I'm a fan of Jalen Brown and whether he chooses to be a part of our program in the future or not. I still think he's an incredible player in person. No doubt, no doubt. I just wanted to touch on this, and go back because Howard, you know, we were talking earlier, we were talking about ownership and, you know, how accessible you are and whatnot within the different organizations.

And I think, you know, this experience, as I'm listening to you talk about it with Team USA and being in the fire and understanding, you know, how many different hats you have to wear and hearing the noise and feeling the pressure and whatnot, gives you a really unique perspective to be a great owner, like because you do do understand what it is to be the guy on the front line with that and how having space to do

your job and being entrusted to do it, even if the decision is a tough one, like you just, you know, articulated like it's my vision. I'm going to do this. You've entrusted me to do it. Like I don't think every owner has that ability to say, you know, I know what that feels like because I've done it. I think that probably makes you an even better owner for having been through that. Yeah, I mean, I think I think a lot of owners, or let's say limited partners or minority partners, you know, what do they bring to the table? They bring money, you know, and certainly that's important, you know, to make the investment. But I do think there's an institutional knowledge and understanding, you know, I think, Raja, just having your experiences, as a player, as someone has been in the front office,

who's just been around the game, you can't teach that. Like, it's just, it's so invaluable and it's a perspective that, I think, brings value. And so, you know, I do think that I can lean in a little bit more on that front.

I think it's interesting when I was talking about the NWSL. I think, you know, Haley Carter, you know, I don't know anything about, I think I know everything about soccer, but I really don't know anything. Right. But I do know about team. I know about culture.

I know about managing personality. I get that. And I think she knows that and recognizes that and has used me as a resource. And so, you know, Adam Silver has talked about wanting more former players at the ownership level. You know, I think one is just, it's, you know,

it's just, you know, obviously we want to be inclusive in everything we do and we're very progressive, maybe the most progressive league in all the professional sports, at least the major sports. But I think it brings that perspective. You bring a perspective to the table, a thought. We talk about diversity.

We think gender. We think ethnicity, which is important. But it's diversity of experiences and perspective that really adds value. And so, yeah, I mean, it's a unique sort of place that I'm in. And I, you know, I could probably lean in a little bit more on the basketball side and with the hawks on that.

And, but I think I didn't realize how much I enjoyed it, how much, you know, how hard it was. But also I think, you know, in some areas, I mean, I said I had to improve in certain areas, but I also think I was pretty good in certain areas. And so it's an interesting place. And I don't know what I'm saying. I guess I'm agreeing with you. I'll need to take a step further. It's made me even consider like, do I want to do this?

Like, is this, forget about everything else. Like, do I want to run a team? Do I want to be a president of basketball operations? It has me questioning whether, you know, I've been avoiding that or running from that. And this is something that I would be fulfilled, truly fulfilled in doing. I'll tell you one thing, the pay would be better than managing director of USA Basket. Well, you'd be great at it. You'd be awesome at it.

I don't have to tell you that. But I, too, for the limited time I was there, I did not realize of the things that I didn't realize. I didn't realize how satisfying it would be to be back in the building on the bus. In whatever capacity, I wasn't part of the team, but I was part of the team, right? Like, I'm on the bus. You know, those things just took me back in a way that was really fulfilling at times. You know what I mean? And, you know, the part that I could not imagine with Team USA,

because when I was with the Cavs, it was a trio. Like, it was a pretty interesting group of personalities with LeBron and Kyrie. And we had Dion for a minute waiters. And then you had Kevin Love and stuff like. So that was interesting. But you basically had, I don't know, 15 stars to manage. Like, it was hard enough watching Griffin and trying to help him manage like four people of that, you know, kind of or three and a half, if you will.

So that had to be super different. but I think you'd be great at it, be interesting. I found myself, Grant, the more I was around it, though, wanting to be even more involved. So, like, my inner, like, professional was like, well, maybe, maybe I, like, coaching more, you know, because I was there and I was a part of it, and then I would be in the box during the game. And I'm watching the game with all of these thoughts and nowhere to really go with them other other than to like, you know, Kobe Altman who's great and Griff who are great, but like, they can't really take it anywhere. And then I was like, well, damn, maybe I need to be even closer to it.

So that was just an interesting experience for me going through it, you know? No, no. And I'm glad you said that because you're spot on. I mean, I think you're, you feel a little bit disconnected from the group. And you just, I don't know, even just being the last man on the bench, You feel like you can add value. You feel like, you know, as a coach or as an assistant coach, you can have an impact on the game during the game. And, you know, one of the things that I realized, like when we played together, we all were leaders in our own way,

but you kind of led with the group. There was, you know, through collaboration, you, let's go eat. Let's go here. Let's go to the movies. Let's whatever. You know, whatever the case may be, you know, intentional connections off the court. And maybe whatever, we have a team meeting, you know, you've got to say something, whatever the case may be.

But what I realized is that, like, it's incredibly isolating and sometimes lonely. And, you know, one of the things that I enjoyed the most from this summer was watching Steve Kerr and T. Lou and Eric Spostra and Mark Few, just some incredible basketball minds and incredible people, too. I mean, three of those guys of won championships. And so to watch them work, to watch them problem solved, to watch them game plan, to strategize all of that, like, man, like, that's just incredible. But you know what? I don't know, I don't need to be in those meetings all the time. Like, they need to be able to challenge each other. They need to be able, and I don't want, you know, let's say one of them wants to replace Kerr and is like, well, grants here, I got to be careful what I said.

Like, no, that becomes, that's where I'm talking about, your present. could actually become a hindrance. And so, you know, it was, I just used that example where at times you're by yourself. And that's hard. And, you know, you feel like, man, if I was on the coaching staff, like I'd be in the mix a little bit more. And so I understand, look, it's the same thing with Kurt. Kerr was a general manager. And it's funny, when Steve, when we were all together in Phoenix, I would, you know,

Steve looked like the boy wonder, you know, he was young. And he was, and then all of a sudden, like, it was this constant stress on his face. And I used to tell him, I said, see, like, why are you doing this, man? Like, this is a thankless job. Like, you know, you should be doing TV. Right. And he would give me some, you know, BS line. Oh, I feel like I'm alive.

And this day. And I'm like, all right, whatever. And, but he made that switch from being a GM to being a coach. And we talked about it. He was like, you know, I just felt like it was more meaningful. Like, I'm in the mix. I'm able to have an impact. It's the closest thing.

to play, you know, being on that bench as a as a coach. So your point, I mean, I felt it. I get it. And certainly, you know, it's spot on. We've had this conversation on the pod before. I feel like you guys never get this out of your system. Like, you know, Raja, Grant, all of you guys, like coaches, like it's hard to walk away. If you've played a long time, if you've coached a long time, like there's like, I've referred to it sometimes as like almost like an addiction where it's like, would you guys have lived that life? It's hard to. to divest yourself of it entirely. So I would, I would totally agree with that.

I would, you know, you find other things in your life that, that you love and you're passionate about and that take up your time. I mean, I do. And I find as long as I'm at a distance from it, I'm fine. Like, I don't, like, I don't, no regrets. There's no like, oh, my God, I want to be. But if I start getting close to it and I get too close to it, it is like an addiction. Like, I just want a little taste.

Like, just give me a little. little bit of it. But if I'm back here, like, I really don't ever feel like I wake up and I'm like, ah, I wish I was, I wish I was on a bus again. But man, when I was, when I was sitting in those, you know, in those offices and I could hear the balls bouncing and, you know, I could pop out at lunchtime and watch guys working out. Man, that was, that was really difficult. You know, you know, I'll just chime in on that real quick. I'll try to be quick. Yeah, you got a play to catch, right? We've got to get you out of here. I appreciate you sharing that.

And, you know, I have a lot that I'm doing now and a lot of really cool and neat things that I'm involved with. But there's a part of you that feels like you're just trying to chase or replace what the game gave you. And just to Raj's point, like, you know, you're looking for that thing that fulfills you like playing it. And I, you know, so you're right. I mean, I still feel like I'm still trying to figure it out.

And so, yeah, I don't say no. I take all these different jobs and roles and responsibility and whatnot. It's almost like to replace that, you know, that addiction in a weird kind of way. And so, and it's hard. Like, I mean, look, my dad played in the NFL 40 years ago, and I think he still misses. I don't think you ever get over it. It's like your first love. I mean, it's different than the love of your wife or your children, but it's a love.

Like, it's there. You have to love it to make it as far as Raja and myself made it as players. And it wasn't for the money. Like, you know, I don't know what anybody made back in the day. Like, you just love the game and you invest so much into it just to get to the level of being considered an NBA player. And then once you're there, like, you put, like, I wish I could go out and play. Like, I have a bad ankle. I can't run.

But, like, I miss being able to just go work out or play two on two or one-on-one. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know if you ever get over that. And you're right. It is sort of your first love in that sense, 100%. Well, Grant, we know you do have a plane to catch. I would be remissive. I didn't at least ask you real quick. Your Hawks are 7 to 9 as we speak, but Dyson Daniels having a breakout season.

Jalen Johnson's making strides. I'm going to, I've heard multiple. pronunciations of Risha's last name, and I've already now screwed it up probably. But your rookie's looking all right. Give us your, you know, 30-second assessment of where your hawks are right now before we let you go catch a plane. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. We're in the mix. I think that those three guys, we know Trey Young, we know what he can do.

But those three guys are young. They're, you know, I think they can, they have a lot of runway in front of them. I think they're really excelling under Quinn Snyder. And we're starting to sort of give them more responsibility. You look at Dyson Daniels. I mean, he, you know, his shooting has improved, his confidence on the offensive end. We know what he can do on defense. He gives us size.

He gives us toughness. Just gives us something we haven't had at that two-gar position. And, yeah, so it's an exciting time. I mean, I'm not, we don't have, you know, these unrealistic expectations. But I do think we expect to be in the playoff hunt and hopefully take a step forward with their development, which we hope will be long term, you know, overall. All right. Appreciate that. Thank you for letting us squeeze that in.

We've held you a lot longer than intended. So my apologies to me or anybody else you might be holding up. The media, man, I tell you, man. What are you going to do with us? You know. We're just over here making noise, man. There you go. Hey, Grant, good to see you, man.

Please tell to me, the family and the girls. Tell everybody hello for me, man. Yeah, it's great to see you, man, and get my best to Cindy and your whole crew. And has your oldest now, has he picked a school? Yeah, he's going to go to Texas. He's a year out, but, yeah. Yeah, that's awesome, man. That's awesome.

I appreciate that. We'll see him in the swamp. That's what's up. Hey, Billy Navier. All jokes aside, I'm going to be up at the swamp. We're coming to some games. So, like, we'll be there. We'll make sure that, man.

I'll just say this, man. Like, you know, I'm sure Texas is even on steroids, but the support in the SEC. Figuratively. I mean, just in terms of the resources and facilities, but like the support for women's sports at Florida, it's incredible. My sister played there.

They've always done, I mean, it's always been phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah, no. And so the SEC, I mean, it's a little different than ACC, but that's awesome, man. Well, you guys... Oh, we're going to be there. Don't worry.

Y'all going to be looking up. Yeah, we'll be there. I love it. I love it. All right. Grant, this has been awesome, man. Thanks so much for hopping on. We really appreciate it.

Good luck to the Orlando Pride Saturday night. And appreciate it. And Rajan and I will be back on Tuesday. Must be 21 plus in present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit R.G. help.com. Call 1-888-7-89-77-7-77 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit

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