The Ringer NBA Show - Summer League Standouts and More NBA Free Agency (Ep. 133)

Episode Date: July 18, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss the ire toward Lonzo Ball (5:00), Donovan Mitchell's shooting (12:30), Josh Jackson's jumper (20:30), the young Phoenix Suns (30:10), and the best free agents on the market (44:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's Ringer NBA show, part of the Ringer podcast network, brought to you by Talk the Thrones. Make sure to watch the Ringer's new live reaction show. Talk the Thrones each week, Andy Greenwald, Mother of Dragons, Mallory Rubin, Chris Ryan, and our very own Jason Kitsapseon, are coming to you live after the East Coast airings of Game of Thrones season seven. Talk the Thrones will stream exclusively on Twitter and Periscope right after each episode ends and can be found on the ringer's Twitter handle at Ringer. They'll be reacting at the same time as you, contextualizing the events and explaining everything that just unfolded. Again, the show is called Talk the Thrones, and you can stream it live after the East Coast airings of Game of Thrones Season 7 on our Twitter and Periscope at Ringer. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every week from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin Obama, aka most like, like, faintly.

Americans under 40 or like I just saw this big leader you and Tate Frazier who is the producer of the NBA show both made like it was like 40 best Americans under 40 years old or something oh man I don't know I I'm just happy that me and two of my co-workers Tate Frazier and Kevin Clark were on the list that was cool oh the humble one Kevin Obama okay it was a big lead 40 media personalities under 40. A big congratulations to you, Kevin. Thank you, Chris. And we met for the first time last week. We did meet for the Yeah, and a lot of people, when I put that up on Twitter, it's very flattering for many people that listened to the show. They were stunned that we had never met before,

given the chemistry we have on the show. So I was very proud of that. I really was. But that is a true story, folks. We had never, we did the, we did the entire season, we did all through the playoffs, we have done the off season. And last week in Las Vegas was the first time I had ever met Kevin O'Connor in person. I also, after, I think you were gone already, I met Charks, Jonathan Charks, and why did nobody tell me that he is a giant? He is huge. He is tall. How tall is Charks? Like six foot three, six foot four? Oh, no, he's a taller. He is taller. He is taller than that. I don't know if he's a lot. I don't know if he's tall. taller than that. Oh, yes. I'm going to have to send him a message like during this

podcast and ask him how tall he is and I'll let you know if I hear it back. And now I'm short, but he's really, really tall and I thought he was the tallest guy. And then I met the guy Nate Duncan who does the- Oh, Nate's huge. He is really, like he's got to be like six, eight. He is huge. He's bigger than half the basketball players. I think he might be around that size. me 6-6, something like that. He's a tall-ass dude. Yeah, the only people that made me feel good about myself were I tried to stand around Yogi Farrell as much as possible.

Yogi Farrell. Yeah, yeah. Didn't see Isaiah Thomas or Nate Robinson strolling through, though. Oh, no. In fact, Isaiah Thomas was there and was with Floyd Mayweather. Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't think I was there that day. Very shocking.

to see both of them. You realize how tiny Floyd really is. He is tiny. And it's, it's, he is. Very jarring. Because you're used to, you know, boxing, and they don't, obviously, he doesn't look tiny in the ring. He's fighting guys of like size and everything's so up close. But when you see him up, like, close, he is, he is a tiny person.

And it's, it's odd to think this is one of the great pugilists of all times. I also, I will tell you, when I saw him, I thought to myself, that guy is not going to, that guy's punches are not going to hurt Connor McGregor in a major way. I don't want to get into the boxing and that fight and everything, but I will tell you, if you're ever, if you ever see him and you see how small he really is, to think that he's punching you and hurting you when you're a much bigger guy would be, I don't know, he's great. And he might, maybe you just dot his face up completely and it leaves him totally. bloody but he's small man he's small he is small so I I'm compact though man he's built him and IT a lot of those small guys are just compact pound for pound with the strongest guys in the league or whatever sport they play that's for sure so the Summer League finally wrapped up we did get to meet in person last week and we cut a show from

summer league and we gave some of our thoughts from there while we were there it all wrapped up last night championship game which unfortunately did not feature Lonzo Ball, but he was, you wrote an article on the Ringer about takeaways from Summer League, and some of them were specifically about the Summer League. Some of them were things that you had talked to different people about while you were at Summer League. But Lonzo was the first thing that you mentioned, and we did not get to see him in the championship

game last night, but I got the sense that after, this was my experience, the Lonzo experience during Summer League. I felt like even amongst the media, there was a lot of hate and going on and resentment going on. And game number one made people, they took some kind of perverse joy in it that he struggled so much and missed so many shots and looked kind of wide-eyed and they were interviewing the dad, whatever. And then by the end of the week, I got the sense that it was, oh, no, he figured it

out and this kid does things that nobody else does and he is as advertised and he is going to be a fantastic NBA player. I think he after game one, he totally flipped the narrative. What about you? Yeah, I agree with everything you said, Chris, especially the part on like there's just a lot of hate, a lot of hate, you know, against Lonzo Ball. And I thought Kevin Pelton said it best. I forget you know, his exact words, but he tweeted it out last week, you know, can you imagine like just watching lawns a ball and just hating watching him play. I mean, I just think there's so much joy in the way he plays the game, the way he passes the ball.

There's so much beauty in the way he, he's just so unselfish on the floor. And I love watching him play. And that was kind of like part of the topic of the conversation that I wrote about in the article you mentioned, where it's just like, this is one of those guys where he just makes everybody better on the floor. We see it in Summer League with his ability just to push the ball up the floor. Like someone tweeted me the other day, who was a lot. better passer in the summer league. Ben Simmons or Lonzo Ball. And my response, my initial response

was Lonzo Ball easily. The reason for that is just because of the fact that, like, he doesn't need to pound the ball to make guys better. Like, we saw that punch pass he had, you know, when he kind of punched ahead to one of his teammates. Just the way he gets the ball, he taps out rebounds, little things like that where he doesn't need the ball on his hands for a long period of time because he knows what happens. Like, he's always surveying the floor, even when the ball's not in his hands. with that said, like Simmons is a better playmaker and a better ball handler, so he might be better able to take advantage of those skills. But Lonzo, just talking specifically about his pure passion vision, I don't know what there is to hate. Like ignore Levar, ignore all, you know, the noise

around him with how like how Lakers fans are going to be loud about it. Just talk about the player and like just enjoy that because Lonsa ball is going to make the NBA better and he's a lot of fun to watch. And the other thing is when you were talking about surveying the floor, some guys in the NBA, point guard, and some of them are even starters on teams, when they're even in the half court, they don't see everything that's going on, this whole feel for the game thing. That kid will get rebounds, defensive rebounds, and the second he turns his head around to go the other way, he sees everything. Some of those full court passes that he threw were just outrageous.

He sees everything, like he sees 90 feet of the court and where everybody is and where everybody is running. He is a rare, rare talent, man. I'm in on him. I would be shocked if he does not end up being extremely good. It's like he's playing 2K, where he has the camera above the court and he can see everything that's actually happening. That's what it's like watching Loneso Ball. Yeah. And then last night, of course, they have to play that championship game without him, but they end up winning the title last night. And then after the game, the celebration. I mean, come on.

Come on. Can we come on with the celebration? Summer League champs, baby. I mean, okay. So we have this moment last night where Magic Johnson says the Lakers are back, which is a bit strong. We are going to make that our Captain Morgan's moment of the week. the Lakers are back says last night Magic Johnson and it appears they were like popping champagne

or whatever else and for a moment I must be honest with you Kevin I had forgotten it was Summer League given the excitement of last night's win and Kyle Kuzma with the 30 points and Magic saying the Lakers are back I thought let me just say I thought that was a bit strong yes it's very strong We're not quite there yet. They're coming back, but they're not back. So magic, I respect magic and his positivity, Chris. You know, I think it's totally cool, but they're not quite back yet. They're getting closer, though.

What do you like about the outside of Lanzo? Was there anything else about the Lakers that you were, that you cared deeply about? Yeah, a couple things. One, Kuzma, I mean, he looks terrific. He's going to be like a big topic of conversation in my article tomorrow on the Ringer, I just think Kuzma, his intensity, his hustle on the defensive end of the floor was really, really, really encouraging the sea. Obviously, he's not going to shoot 48% from three for the rest of his career. But the fact is that he has good fundamentals and good mechanics and he looked damn good in Summer League, very confident.

Also, just the fact that the Lakers played good unselfish basketball. I think, like a lot of times in Summer League, like you see players, especially a guy like Vanderbillow in the past, he just takes every shot he can take at every opportunity he'll take a shot. But this year, Vanderbluen in Summer League was willing as a passer. And I think he kind of, as an individual, stood as an example of how, I think, I don't want to use the word selfish, but how a kind of a score-first mentality guard can even, can really evolve and change his game in a system that preaches ball movement and kind of unselfish play. So it was cool to see Blue evolve within that system. because the Lakers were moving the ball, man.

Like, they played good basketball. It wasn't just lawns a ball. It was a lot of the guys in that team. So that was fun to watch. They did have a good Summer League team. But Magic Johnson, after the game, saying the Lakers are back is the, that's our Captain Morgan's moment of the week. You've got to pump the brakes magic on this one.

Captain Morgan's moment of the week, no matter how you live like a captain, Captain Morgan reminds you to please drink responsibly captain's orders. You wrote about a couple of other guys. And we touched on them last week. week after I had seen a couple of them in person. And I was glad that two of your takeaways included other players that everybody started buzzing about. It's not the end-all be-all by any means to be great in Summer League, but this was a very highly touted rookie class and many of them lived up to or exceeded expectation. One of them you mentioned was Donovan Mitchell.

I raved about him last week. I saw him play in person no less than two. I might have seen him three times. I know for sure I saw him twice. And I also had watched him in that Utah Summer League on NBA TV, where he was going back and forth with Tatum. And this kid, he's the one, he and Dennis Smith Jr., two that you chronicled in the article, I thought made the biggest impressions on me by far. And I thought both, I know that it's just Summer League. I know the basketball is crap. But when you watch those two kids, if either of them becomes busts, I will be absolutely stunned. I foresee no circumstance where both of them are not extremely good NBA players and both of them could very possibly be stars. And so you chronicled them. Is there anybody else?

I mean, is there anybody when you were writing this that you're thinking, who are the players I really want to mention? Or was it just totally clear cut? Obviously, you got to talk about Lonzo. But those other two, Mitchell and Smith are the ones. Just two quick thoughts on Mitchell and Smith. Like for, you know, if anybody does think, oh, Smith, what he does won't translate. You know, maybe he's not going to score 35 points like he did in the summer league. But his defense will translate.

His intensity will translate. just his rebounding at the guard position and the little hustle plays he makes, that will translate. His spot-up shooting will translate. So Mitchell, the reason why I liked him so much in the draft and why me and Charks and Danny Chow all did, is just those abilities are a good foundation for him to build on. And like what we saw in Summer League is just the long-term potential. And then with Dennis Smith, I think there's a chance he ends up the best player in this draft, but I feel like he's getting a little bit overhyped in some ways after Summer League.

and I forget who tweeted this, so I apologize for stealing a very smart line, but someone said how, like, Summer League is like a pickup game, right, in some ways. And Dennis Smith is the ultimate pickup game player. And that's very true in the sense that Smith's game is perfect for the style of play. So granted, he looked incredible. I mean, in the pick and roll, like I wrote about, just fantastic. And then you imagine him with Nerlens Doel and Dirk Nevitsky, you know, on the floor with him. he's going to be really, really good in the pick and roll.

But with that said, I feel like some of the hype that's come as a response is a little bit much, people saying he should be top two, top three pick. I think there's still some flaws in his game in terms of shooting the ball, in terms of decision making, in terms of defense, that he's really going to need to iron out in order to become an elite, elite point guard. So Smith, I'm pumping the brakes a little bit on him, even though I'm in love with his game, and I think he has a chance to become one of the best. So he's one of those guys where it's like,

let's relax a little bit because we saw what happened with Chris Dunn last year, another guy whose game is really perfect for the style. So I think give Smith some time. He's going to have to iron things out in the NBA, whereas Mitchell, I feel like it's ready to come in right away and play a role, even though he might not be as dynamic as Smith. I was happy for jazz fans too, because that's something to get super and seriously excited about

after what was a crap summer, right? They just got totally good. gut punched, but there's nothing more fun than having an awesome young player that you know is going to be on your team for the foreseeable future that you can really get behind and root for. And I think they've got a possible star on their hands with him. And I say that because I gave a little background. I went around some more after we recorded that podcast last week.

And I can't recall all the things I said about Donovan Mitchell, but surely I'll be able to add a couple. So when I asked, I think I mentioned last week that I had asked somebody about Donovan Mitchell and they told me Petino loved him, which tells you everything you need to know, right? That the guy, like, Patino doesn't love anybody, right? And he's a, the kid is a, he's a bulldog out on the court. And Petino swore by the kid. Well, I went and talked to Glenn Cyprian, who actually coached the Grizzly Summer League team. The Grizzlies played against Mitchell, and it was the game he had like 30. and he had like eight steals. And I watched the game and I thought, it looks like you put a four-time NBA All-Star out on the court with the rest of these guys. Like he's just so much better than everyone.

And after the game, I talked to the coach about Donovan Mitchell, the Grizzlies coach. And he told me that now last year, he was a personnel guy and a scout for the Grizzlies. And he went to Louisville to go to one of their practices. and said that during the course of the practice, he was looking at all the players, and Patino came over to him and said, Sip, that is the best shooter I've ever had.

And he said he almost fell over. Now think about everybody that's played for Rick Patino, everybody. I mean, you're talking about NBA college, guys like Jamal, Mashburn, Paul Pierce, whatever. He said that kid is the best shooter I've had. And then he said after the practice, Donovan Mitchell walked straight up to him and said, coach, my name's Donovan Mitchell. Is there anything, any kind of tips you can give me that'll help me on the next level?

And he was like, I was just blown away. And evidently the backstory on the kid, his dad's like a AAA baseball manager. And the kid like grew up around professional athletes his whole life. And just I'm telling you every single person I talk to in Las Vegas either. and none of which were jazz-related people did nothing but rave about this kid both on and off the court. So I think I'm pretty much all in on Donovan Mitchell, Kev. Charks is 6'4, by the way. No, he's not.

No, he's not. Six foot four. And he has why. I said Vernon wanted him now. Oh, you know what? Well, hold on. Let's take a step back. He was wearing high heels.

That song. He was in drag. Forgive me, he was in drag when I saw him. Oh, God. I hope Charks isn't listening to this. Another, he doesn't listen to this. Another thing, by the way, everybody should have told me. He said you claim he's seven foot.

Yeah. Thank goodness I'm not going to ever, hopefully I won't see him in person until next summer. So I won't have to. Forget about it by that. I won't have to deal with that ogre trying to smash my head in. Yeah, you won't get caught with a haymaker from sharks. Anyway, Mitchell, Mitchell. Yeah, all in on Mitchell.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm all in too, man. Like, he has, like, we talk all the time, you know, in sports and on the internet and on Twitter about, like, intangibles. And don't, he, Mitchell has it. Like, he has those intangibles. And I think for him, like, you look at his backstory, he didn't start playing basketball full time. until the end of his sophomore year in high school because a wrist injury kind of forced him to think about quitting baseball and he did. He made the choice to commit himself to basketball. So when you think

about it, he's only been at this for four years, you know, playing exclusively basketball. There's a lot of multi-sport athletes, you know, across sports, but for Mitchell, he's been focusing in basketball just four years now. And he had an interview somewhere. I forget where it was. But, you know, when I was doing some background on him recently, you know, he basically said like, he's surprised all of this has happened as quickly as it has for him, right? Scoring 35 points in the Summer League against some of the best college competition, the best international competition. Stunning for someone like him.

And yet, you know, he's remained humble through it. And I think, you know, the example you gave with him asking about ways he can get better, those are good qualities, man. Like those are good signs that he's going to keep getting better. I really, really like that kid. And I think there's a chance he ends up becoming the steal of the draft. He's one of the 10 guys that I think has a chance, a chance, at least of becoming the best player in the draft. One of the 10.

All right. Fultz showed well, ball showed well. People love Tatum. Let's get to the fourth pick, which is Josh Jackson, who you chronicled. The biggest takeaways about Jackson. Because you wrote about his Achilles heel. Yes. Jackson, good.

He was good. I mean, he's fine. Like, I'm not going to complain over here about his game. He was good. But at the same time, like the jumper. still needs to get better. It's the same thing it was in college. There's no other way to put it. The jumper needs to get better for him to really take advantage of the rest of his skills. So spot-up shooting, shooting off the dribble, free throw shooting. It all needs to get better.

One of the things I wrote about is he changed his free throw routine. Like he kind of moves his left foot backwards before he shoots. It's something I remember Paul Pierce did in the past. It's something LeBron James has done before, shifting the left foot back and then moving forward before shooting. It's not something he did in college, but at the same time, his actual form, like when he brings the ball up and releases it, that hasn't changed at all. From what I can tell, his jumper hasn't changed either. And it's little things like that where it's like, damn, I mean, somebody's going to get him in the gym and have him revise his mechanics. There's little things I've written about before in the ringer. I alluded to it in the article on Monday,

where it's like he does need to make some fundamental changes in order to become, I think, not just a good shooter but a more consistent shooter. I mean, he had his stretch during the college season where he shot like 18% from three and then he shot like 40%. I still think that was just small sample size, a hot streak. I don't think it was real. And I'm a little bit worried about his shot, especially in the early years of his career. He needs to get better.

It's really as simple as that. Maybe he will and I hope he does, but there's no denying that he needs to make massive strides as a shooter. A little reminiscent of two guys that I really, really like, and he may be a little better shooter than them, but I really, really like, they bring the tenaciousness and that dog to the fight in the games, but it's been the shooting that has, much like you have said, two guys like that. Kid Gilchrist and Justice Winslow, over the course of the past five, six years. Those are two guys that I remember, like, they're never going to be crappy, ever. It is just a matter of what is the line between them being all-star players, right?

Yeah. Because they kind of, they, they, they, I love so much of what they bring to the table, but you're right. The shot is what holds them back from being, you know, whatever their, their peak is as a player, that's what kind of holds them back. And Jackson's, that's going to befell him too. And it'll be interesting to see what happens with it. Because I will tell you, watching him in person, um, I, I loved all the other stuff, right? I'm willing to say, we'll figure the shot out because the kid does so much other stuff. He attacks all the time.

And at worst, he has all the goods to be an elite level lockdown defender. It was funny. I watched the Sons, and he stands out. He did not have that grade of a game, but he's just got so many tools, and he's so good with the ball at his size that I really, foresee great things from him. The other kid on his team, though, and I don't know what your opinion was, I'd have to go back and look, coming out of the draft, the kid they took last year, Chris, Marquise Chris, Kevin, he was awful. I mean, he looked heavy, he looked winded, like everything about it.

Like, if you would have told me that that kid was as high a draft pick as he was, and that, you know, People really, they projected him to be something very, very special. Maybe I just went to the wrong game. Maybe it was just, you know, I don't know, Summer League and it was the third. Maybe it stayed out all night before, but he didn't stay out and gain 20 pounds. I'm telling him he looked out of shape. He just, it was bad, man. Like, I'm sorry, but I just, I'm telling, I'm relaying this.

I was at these games. These are the observations you have. What we do is overreact to Summer League, but I was, I was so out. on him after watching him in person. And honestly, I did not recognize him at first. He has changed his body for the worst. Did you see him? Chris?

Yeah. Yep. Yep. You would like a guy in his second ear to look better, not the same or worse. And Chris didn't look great. And like the big problem with his Chris is like, he still files way too much. I mean, that was an issue for him in school at Washington as a freshman. And so when he was falling out of games for the Huskies, you'd say, okay, yeah, he's just 18, you know, he'll get better.

But then last year with the suns, he's still falling a lot. He's still falling a lot now in the summer league. So it's like he's still only 20, right? I believe he might have just turned 20, maybe even this month or last month, something like that. So he's still really young. But at the same time, it's like, that's something where like you need to be on the floor in order to get minutes. You need to be in order to get minutes. To get minutes, you need minutes to develop.

So it's like, for him, he needs to be available and playing consistently and playing, I think, smart. And for him, like, we haven't seen that a whole lot. Wasn't he like a mega athlete? He oozes potential, though, man. But yeah, he's an elite athlete. Yeah, he was a mega. Dude, I'm telling you. That athleticism was not there.

Maybe a little too much partying. Who knows? I mean, I didn't see many Sun's games there. I believe I might have only seen like one or maybe one and a half, something like that, but you saw him up close against the Grizzlies. So look, man, like he's an athlete. I mean, like even if he's out of shape right now, when he's in shape, I mean, that dude, that dude can really explode, really can explode.

So I want to be too worried about that unless like, unless it's the type of thing like you said with his weight and his conditioning, unless that just totally declines, then then there's really very little use for him. Because, like, you asked me what I thought about him prior to the draft. I had a lot of mixed thoughts. I mean, like we're talking about right now, I kind of feel exactly the same now as I did then, where it's, like, explosive athlete, you know, theoretically could be a versatile defender.

You know, he can shoot a little bit. But, you know, the fact is, like, his feel for the game is really bad. His effort isn't great. You know, he doesn't always stay in his stance defensively. You know, body language isn't great. I mean, there's a long list of issues with Chris. it's like he oozes potential. At number eight, with a son's got him, I like the value there,

but there's absolutely an element of risk. And like Bender, like I texted you about Bender last week. I had an NBA writer tell me, I forget who it was, and I wouldn't say their name anyway, but like an NBA writer said to me like a lot of people were, like really down on Dragon Bender at Summer League thinking he's like a bust, and it's like, dude, he's only 19 right now. he's only 19

granted like he has some really bad moments out on the floor like he's still only 19 and like he's he's someone that when the suns drafted him fourth last year they knew he was going to take time they knew there was going to be moments like he was going to look like garbage early in his career and he's had a lot of those moments

where he looks like trash but he's also had moments where he looks pretty good and you saw one of those times last week Chris where he had a great second half against the Grizzlies yeah well he did here's the here's the Here's the problem with him. Now, I was glad that was one of those moments where the first half I thought he was so bad and I almost tweeted something about it. And then I was glad he didn't because then he got an and one and then he got a three

and then he showed a little hustle, whatever. You know what I think hurts him is, and this is maybe a mistake for people to do it. But Porzingis was so awesome, right? Like we saw it. Yeah, that's a mistake. If that's what people are hoping. No, but I'm just saying when you draft a guy in the top five, it's like we could tell with Porzingis immediately, right?

And I will tell you, with Bender, you cannot tell him, listen, I was not watching Porzingas, I was not watching Durk, I was not, I know what those guys look like and have always looked like. He ain't them, but the book is, no, God, no, for goodness sakes, no. I'm not going to look up one day, and he's one of the great players in the NBA. No way. Absolutely not. Now, is he a bust or am I out on him?

No, I'm not that. Could he be a good player? Could he be a guy that ends up making a boatload of money one day? Like even Braniani made a boatload of money, right? And I hate to just compare them all to guys that have come from overseas. But in fairness, it's the first time we see them is when, unless you're like watching on YouTube or you're a international basketball fan, our awareness of them is. is not until they come. So I didn't have some kind of strong prior opinion

about what Dragon Bender would be on the next level or what Porzingis would be or what Hazonia would be or whoever. But I would tell you, much in the same way that I've told you with some of these guys, I would be shocked if they don't turn out to be really good. If that kid turns out to be one of the great players in the NBA and was totally worthy of his draft position, I will be surprised. even though he was not terrible. I still, I didn't feel like I was watching anything special.

I think Bender, if he does become great, he'll become one of those, I guess, non-traditional superstars, where he's a superversal to defender at seven feet can defend the rim a little bit, can switch pick and rolls and defend on the perimeter, who can run a little offense for you, kind of like, and I really hate to compare him to this guy, but a little bit like the dream. Draymond type of player. He's not going to be Draymond because nobody's

has Draymond's intangibles. But that mold of a player, that's where I could see him developing into that type of mold. And like in my draft guide last year, I called him a super glue guy. And that's kind of the way I think of Bender.

And those guys are important. I think that's the value, a co-worker at the Ringer, Jonathan Charks saw in Jonathan Isaac. Just those like super high-end role players, they're important in the league. And for Bender, like for him to ever.

become that, his shot's going to have to improve. He shot like eight threes a game for the suns this summer and he only hit like 28%. Small sample size and whatnot, but that's kind of a continuation of what he's done in almost every level. So he needs to get better as a shooter, and obviously his body needs to develop all the things everybody, you know, every player has to do when they're young, but his shot more than anything else needs to improve for him to make a significant, consistent impact. Yeah, I'm not ready to make some kind of grand statement about him but they need that one to hit because I would be I'd be very worried if I was a son I'd feel great if I was a son's fan obviously about Booker Ulyss excites me Booker excites me Jackson excites me

um bender I'm a wait and see but Chris would be the one I'd be really worried about of their like young accumulated talent okay I just want to tell a really quick Tyler Ulys story yeah when I was in Phoenix uh writing the story in the suns after a game one time like I introduced myself to Tyler Ullis and like after I shook his hand. Like I realized his nose was like dripping. Like he had like the worst cold like ever. Like he looked like he looked so awful. And I was like, oh, can I ask you a couple questions?

And like I realized that as I was saying it. And he's like, yeah, man, give me one second. I was like, no, actually like I realize you're sick. It's all good, man. Like forget it. It's all good. He's like no, dude. It's all good.

I want to chat. It's cool. And like two minutes later he came up from the bathroom. Like his face cleared up a little bit. He probably like put like a face cloth on his face to clear his nose a little bit. And like he was so kind and we chatted for like five, ten minutes or something like that just about basketball and about the sons and about his teammates. And so like I really really appreciated him when he was feeling like he looked really bad, like really sick. And he took the time out to chat about hoops.

It was really cool. He's a good kid. And like that's, it was really an example firsthand for me for everything you hear about him as a leader. It's just as a high character guy to have in your locker room. And granted he's only 21. He's so young. he is somebody that I think improves your locker room, especially on a young team like that. You'll list as someone who could be important for the sons moving forward, regardless of how the guys we already mentioned develop as players.

He's a really good guy and a really good player. And he and all these little guys owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to Isaiah. No, they do. They owe so much to Isaiah Thomas. Isaiah Thomas changed. He really changed the perception. Those old school guys just, you know, there ain't anybody that looks like him. And obviously the bar of being Isaiah Thomas and one of the top two or three scores in the NBA is too high.

But they were discriminated against for better or worse, right? For many, many years. And now is not the wrong time to be a guy under six foot. They will give you a chance now where very few got that opportunity for so long. He's one of the most significant short people of our time, Isaiah Thomas, Kevin, is what I'm trying to. to say. Right behind you, Chris. Right behind you.

You're number one. I can't wait to the big leads list comes out of a short. I think it is. I got a big competition. The tall media members are the ones that stand out. Short media members, I'm going to have like mad competition. Big time. There's a lot of tall people out there, man.

Not in the media. It's true what they say about tall people, you know, find a lot of success and rise up in power. It's truth, man. That's what I knew it I knew that's why Charks has his job. He's tall and he knows about basketball too. Yeah, but it's because he's tall. Yeah, anybody else lower in the draft? Since we talked about the guys that really made impressions on us while we were out at Summer League,

anybody else a little bit lower that you cared about. Mine was actually the pick after Donovan was the kid from the heat. I really liked Bam out of bio. I did. I liked him, man. He is a hustler. That Joker will block shots, rebound. You know, he's never going to be like some kind of 10-time All-Star, but he's going to help people win games for sure. I liked him a lot. I liked him a lot. I like him a lot of people's players. I'm really cool player. Really cool to see him, you know, really, I think, burst onto the scene and really catch a lot of people's eyes in Summer League. I like him a ton. I believe Danny Chow and the Ringer might have had him ranked highly as well. I'm a big BAM fan. You know, two guys I'll be writing about for tomorrow that stuck out. Besides Kuzma, he's going to be kind of the focus of the article. But Jordan Bell and Shemi O'Jaleigh,

O'Jolay drafted 37th by the Celtics and Bell drafted 38th by the Warriors after they traded $3.5 million in cash consideration to the Chicago Bulls for Bell. Both those guys look terrific. I mean, they embody all the versatile qualities you'd look for in high-end role players in today's league. O'Jolay is just, I mean, that dude looks like Herculees out there. I mean, he is so built. I haven't really seen many guys like that in the league with his body type. I just Google's Shemi-O-J-E-M-I-J-E-L-E-Y-E, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

That dude is strong, can defend Biggs, quick enough to slide on the perimeter. And he hits three. He's like, I have no doubt, like, if the South has given him opportunity, he could contribute in a minimal role this season. And then Jordan Bell, same thing, man. Like, we saw it, you know, in March Madness with his ability to switch and block shots from the weak side. Jordan Bell looks damn good, dude. Like the Warriors got another good player two years in a row with the 38th pick.

Last year, they traded $2.4 million to get Pat McCaw. This year traded $3.5 to get Jordan Bell. Like, they know where to spend their money. They know how to target players. They know how to develop players. And Jordan Bell is going to be the next guy that people see. And Jordan Bell, man, like, it wouldn't surprise me if he plays a lot this year. If they don't bring back Javale McGee, and I wouldn't bring back Javale McGee knowing they have Jordan Bell.

He looks good. Yeah, the two guys that I loved going into the draft, I mentioned this to you many times and put it up on Twitter. But there were two second round picks that I just thought this is insanity. And one of them was Jordan Bell, and the other one was Cendarius Thornwell, who actually had some really good games for the Clippers. And I think he is what I thought he was. Like both of those guys, to me, were like, what more do you need to see? One of them was the Pac-12 defensive player of the year. The other one was the SEC player of the year.

And it's like, enough already with the over-analysis. These guys amongst their peers were better than them over and over and over again. And both of those two carried teams to the final four. You know, I mean, if it weren't for Bell, and by the way, his teammate, who played for the Grizzlies, Dylan Brooks looked fantastic too. What you start to realize, that Oregon team was a great. college basketball team who ends up it's going to end up with at least four guys in the NBA off of it and then again when it when is South Carolina ever in the final four

never the answer is never by the way and the fact that they were there and he was clearly the best player on their team it's not the end-all be-all but here's what you do know when you get to the second round you can you can get way far ahead of the game just by drafting somebody that you know is not going to suck. And there was no chance either of those guys. There was a matter of how good they were going to be, but they were not going to suck. And I thought both were the victims of paralysis by analysis. You know, NBA can be very ageist when it comes to players, right?

The worst thing you can be is 21 or 22 years old. And you miss on guys because they want to take the 19-year-old that they think can be even so much better when they're 21 and many times it doesn't work out. You said you were going to write about Kuzma? I just went and looked it up because he was great last night. A lot of people were very high on him when I was at Summer League. He is part of that Lakers' new young core, but I had forgotten how they got that pick. That was actually, do you know this?

Well, you're about to write about it, so you probably do. He is part of that trade ostensibly. Brooklyn got DeAngelo Russell and Timothy Mosgoff, the Lakers got Brooke Lopez and the 27th pick. So that pick turned into Coosma, so it was really Lopez and Cozma for Russell and Mosgoff. Huh. Pretty good, man. Yeah, that could look a lot worse for Brooklyn, right, if Coosma is even a semblance of what he appeared to be. I don't know if it looks bad for Brooklyn, though.

I like Russell. I'm a Russell fan still. I am too. Give them time. Give them time. I don't understand if you're off the bandwagon, but I'm a fan. No, but they had to clear the way for Lonzo anyway. And they got off Moskopf's contract.

Again, it was a big sacrifice, but we will see next summer what that enables them to pull off, right? Because many. Yeah, I mean, when they get LeBron and Paul George and then they sign. and trade some guys for John Wall. I mean, they're going to be stacked. Yeah. I'm only half joking. Only half joking.

That's like kind of a lot. I mean, the fact that I'm a little bit serious about that, you never know. You never know. All right. I never know. All right, we got to take a quick break. When we come back, I am going to ask you about there are still free agents left out there, Kevin.

So I'm just going to run through the free agents available at the different positions. And I'm going to ask you who you want. out of the group. And I'll go point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward, center. And we'll just go through who the top available free agents are left and who Kevin O'Connor would want on the team. We'll be back right after this. Today's NBA show, part of the Ringer podcast network,

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We don't have to spend a ton of time on this, but it'll at least let our listeners know who is still out there and available for their teams. And you tell me which of the guys you want. All right, point guard. Do I have like generic average team? Am I like a generic like just smack in the middle? Yes, so we are not going to, this is not contingent upon fit. Okay.

Okay. I'm just asking you which guy you want. Derek Rose, Ty Lawson, Darren Williams, Brandon Jennings, Ramon Sessions, Brian Roberts. And again, these are not all-encompassing list. I'm just jotting down. Those are available point guards and those are at least a group. of names. Give me Darren Williams on the vet minimum.

All right. He wants Darren Williams. Shooting guard. Tony Allen, Ian Clark, K.J. McDaniels, Aaron Aflalo, Alan Anderson. Who is the second one? Ian Clark. Ian Clark.

Give me Ian Clark. Even though I love KJ. McDaniels, I've kind of started to give up hope. If I have a team with a shooting coach, I'll take KJ. Otherwise, I'm taking Ian Clark. All right. Four words. Jamich, Nikolai Mertich, Dante Cunningham,

Shabazz Mohammed, Thomas Robinson, Terrence Jones. Yes. I mean, clearly, Michael Green. Yeah, clearly,

Jamichael Green's the best of those. I know. I know. I think, you know, I think, you know, Jim Michael Green will go back to the Grizzlies. I think he could even sign his,

his, his offer sheet to go back there. to go back there and become a restricted free agent next summer. I think that could happen because what's the market for him, man? I'm a big fan of him, but it's actually at this point it's Brooklyn or nothing. Either Brooklyn just throws their money that they have not been able to spend. And they have made life hard on a lot of people over the course of the last couple years, right? Yes.

They threw the offer sheet at Crabb. They threw the offer sheet at Tyler Johnson. They threw the offer sheet at Otto Porter. I mean, they are not scared to throw an offer sheet on somebody or make it a poison pill. So it's either Who knows? Yeah, it's either Brooklyn or nothing. I mean, that's the leverage

because everybody else is pretty well out of money. Atlanta just spent theirs. And Phoenix says they want to keep their money open. So it's really Brooklyn or the Grizzlies, I would think, for Jim Michael Green. Yeah. I think he might just end up signing that qualifying offer. We'll see what happens. That's interesting.

Yeah, the market went against him for sure. But the Grizzlies have to retain him after losing Zach Randolph. They have no other money. or power forwards. They have to. Yeah, need a starter. Center. Nerlin's so well.

Are we even going to count him? I mean, Dallas is just going to re-up on him, right? You would think, but what's taking so long? I mean, I think what Dallas is probably doing, and I guess this is smart. Maybe not, though. It's just wait for a big offer sheet to come in. And if it comes in, match it. If it doesn't, well, then maybe you have leverage to give him a little bit less

than perhaps what he was hoping for going into the summer. That's what I think. I could be totally wrong there. I'm not sure. I'm just guessing. But I think that's logically what could be happening with Noel. These other names are kind of, ma'am. Mason Plumley, Powell, Alix-Lan, Javall McGee.

I mean, these are not. What do you think that? What did Powell opt out of? I mean, is he going to make that back? Or was that a, right? Didn't remember Powell opted out of his contract? And like, he's just kind of hanging out there now. Huh?

Yeah. Yeah, like 16 million or something like that. I guess, or something along those lines, I guess reportedly, Woge reported today that they're working to finalize a deal. So we'll see what happens with that. Maybe he'll get more years instead of, who knows, instead of the $30 million over two years. I'm not sure exactly, but it was an odd thing when it happened during a busy, busy, busy week with rumors and all that stuff and trades and everything.

So we'll see what happens. I think he'll be back with the Spurs, but I'm very, very interested. see what the money he is he gets. Yeah, I just went back and pulled back the story. This was the one that the AP put out. It said, Gassau declined a $6 million option on Tuesday with the intent of signing a long-term deal with the Spurs so the franchise can gain some flexibility to hit the free agent market. Signed a two-year deal last summer worth $30 million.

And so, yeah, $16.2 million is what he opted out of. Yikes. Maybe he'll get two years, 8.1 per or something like that. I don't know. Who knows? Yeah, but I mean, then you're getting paid. Didn't you just say 8.1? Then you're getting paid.

Yeah, but then you're getting paid the same. We see players take pay cuts a lot, though. Spurs. For him, he's like, oh, yeah, look at my net worth. You know, I'm feeling pretty good. Like, maybe I can take a little bit less money to allow them to do other things. You see Spurs take pay cuts a lot. Don't.

That's who you see pay cuts. Sure. Sure. Yeah, you see Kevin Durant too. You see guys in other sports, Tom Brady. David West. The list is short. Put it that way.

Yeah. How much do you think Powell is made? I actually have it open right now, so this is like cheating. 187,449,761. Yeah, I think he can afford it. Yeah. He's only made $187.4 million. Oh.

187 million. Yeah. And that doesn't include like, you know, commercials and, you know, signings and all that. That's, uh, investments doesn't include that, the good ones and the bad ones. I mean, obviously it also doesn't include taxes being taken out, but he's made a boatload of money. That is for certain. All right. So, yeah, so, uh, of the, of those centers, I suppose Noel would be the one that you would want, right?

Yeah, and besides Noel, maybe McGee, I don't know, but Noel would absolutely be the one. Yeah, so there are a lot of names that are still out there, but I just don't know how many of them are really going to, how many are really going to move the needle for somebody, you know? James Michael McAdoo. Tate wants us to talk about James Michael McAdoo. Tate just needs James Michael to find a good team to be with so he can keep rooting for him. Taking all applicants now. And so that he can get into NBA parties. You know it, Chris.

There's a lot of players that, like, you look at their names and you think that they should be on a team right now. There's a lot of guys. I mean, they might not be good players. They might be end of bench players, but there's a lot of unsigned guys that you would think would be on a roster. It's hard gig to stay around for a long time, you know. Especially with a loaded rookie class coming in. Loaded rookie class that everybody's super high on that is now. I mean, you don't see a lot of many times in the past we don't.

see rookies the way being cleared for them, right? Like, Donovan Mitchell's going to play a ton, and Lonzo Ball is going to play a ton. He's going to start, and Dennis Smith Jr. is going to start, and Markell Fultz is going to start. I mean, you look at all, there are so many of these guys that are going to walk right into the league and play. And that has not always been so.

But this class is so good that a lot of them, not only are they going to be on rosters, they're going to be in eight and ten-man rotations immediately. Yes. And so that makes it even harder. And even like some of them are going to play in the playoffs too. Pat McCaw playing in the finals last year. Jordan Bell could be playing in the finals next year.

If you were the GM of the team with the 38th pick in the 2018 draft and the Warriors called you saying, hey, we'll give you $3.5 million for your pick. Are you hanging up the phone? If I'm the Bulls, I would. I mean, listen, I got to, I got to, I'm sorry to the Bulls fans. I really am because God bless, they, just what a debacle of an offseason. Now you got the Wade thing hanging out there. I, you know, I was skeptical, kind of eye-rolled when they drafted Markinen with the seventh pick.

And part of that was just compounded by the fact that it was the Jimmy Butler deal, right? Like if you took somebody at seven that I could foresee becoming a big star, it's possible. So it's possible that, to me, that Malik Monk could be a big star. It's possible that Dennis Smith could be a big star. It's possible that Donovan Mitchell could be a big star or whatever, right? It is impossible to me to believe that Markan is going to be a big star. So the fact that that was the deal and with the seventh pick, that's what they, used it on and nothing at Summer League changed my mind. In fact, it confirmed it even more.

There is no chance Lori Markinen is ever going to be an NBA All-Star. None. I would say that's bold, but it's like not that bold. No. I'm totally right there with you. I think he's got to be like, I mean, look, like he could be Ryan Anderson. He could be Channing Fry and that's a quality player. But you're talking about, you know, the guy, the type of player you want with the number seven pick he ain't it channing fry he could be channing fry i think you said i think you said it all i think you said it all i i gotta say i don't want to i hate i really hate to pile on the bowls but i just want to say like one thing about marking in that an NBA executive said to me

like way back in like january or february we were talking about marketing and and this was a time where like i was really liking him um and i guess this conversation kind of of like, I guess, it gave me some clarity in terms of, you know, a different perspective with Markanin. In terms of like his rebounding, him rebounding like a guard, him defending, you know, not very well at all. And one of the things the executive said was he doesn't think Markanin is as good of a shooter as people think he is. Like he shoots 83% from the line, 42% from three in college. But his point was very interesting. And we might have started to see this a little bit in Summer League.

He thinks his release is a little bit too low, where he's going to have shots contested easily, where he could have a poor percentage when contested, only good when open. And I'm very curious to see if he does shoot at a lower rate than people think. I personally think his shot's fine, just in my assessment. But this guy I chatted with us a hell of a lot smarter with me, has been doing this a lot longer than any of us have. So I'm curious to see how his three-point percentage develops over his rookie season with the Bulls. and over the early stage of his career

because his release is a little bit low. He's got a flame throw with a three-point shot, but that's something just to watch for. Just the thought to have in your mind as the season approaches. Final thoughts. After I left Summer League, we got this downtime here for a while. Inevitably, some of these free agents are going to be added to teams

and rosters will start to take complete form. But I got very, very excited about next basketball season after seeing all of that young talent on display in Las Vegas. It was my first time there. I know it was your first time there. But I do think we, though the basketball is not great, and you can't make, maybe we'll get burned on making some sweeping judgments from what we saw there, just given the circumstances of the games and the rosters and

whatever else. But I do think that this was a very loaded group of young talent that next year is going to to be littered throughout highlight packages, etc. They are fun to watch, man. They are really, Jackson's fun, Fox is fun, ball is fun, Dennis Smith is fun, Fultz is fun. These aren't just like good basketball players. These are like super entertaining basketball players. So I think that's what my overall, I think that's like the biggest thought I had leaving there was I'm pretty excited about next year because these kids, not only do a lot of them have a chance to be great, they are, They're fun watch.

Even in those shitty summer league games, they were fun to watch. I think you nailed it, Chris. That's my big takeaway. Prior to the drafts, you know, one talent evaluator I chatted with compared the draft to 1999, a draft where in the top 10 there was only one bust. Brian Colangelo said prior to the draft that there's five or six, quote, surefire all stars. I'm with them.

And I think that's the truth. I know a lot of people are going to respond saying, oh, it's just hype. hyperbolic statements, it's just Summer League. But this draft is damn good, man. And like that top 10, the top 10 players, you know, at least in my evaluation, I think, could all have a chance of being the best in the draft. After that, it drops off a little bit. But even then, like, there's still good players that are going to be had as we saw early

in Summer League. There's going to be guys that contribute early. There's going to be guys who, I think people question immediately, why did he fall so far in the draft? We're already starting to do that with Kuzma and Ojolay and guys. guys like that. It's impressive. It's really an impressive class and I'm excited for the future of the league. My prediction would certainly be we will look back at this draft and it will be an amazing NBA draft that netted some big time like the next great wave of players was drafted this past year.

I do believe that. He is Kevin O'Connor from the ringer.com. Keep a look out for the NBA articles that are coming out throughout the week. If you dig what you're here, go give us a rating and review on iTunes. And I do want to tell you, very deeply appreciative. For all of you that reached out last week, we joked about never meeting each other before last week, but we really hadn't. And we got great response from so many people about listening to this show throughout the year, being surprised that we had never met in person. And for those of you that have gone and given us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, we are forever indebted to you and greatly appreciate it. Because that stuff does matter. And it certainly helps us with the podcast and grow the podcast.

So a big thank you. I'm never the guy that writes reviews for anything. So for those of you that have gone and done it, I thank you a lot, as does Kevin. And thanks for listening to us. We'll still be knocking stuff out. We'll still keep, I think we're still doing the pod every week. So we'll have to come up with something else to talk about.

Hell yeah. I'm excited about it, Chris. My man. Thanks, Kevin. Thanks, Chris. That was fun. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. We will catch up with you next week.

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