The Ringer NBA Show - Sweeps, Hacks, and Kawhi's Iso Game (Ep. 102)

Episode Date: April 25, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss sweeps by the Warriors and Cavs (5:00), Raptors-Bucks (11:00), the Wizards' lacking bench (18:00), Taurean Prince's improvement (22:00), Hack-a-Shaq situations (30:30), Gasol and Conley (38:00), Kawhi's iso offense (44:00), and the Bulls without Rondo (55:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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To get your $20 rebate, download the Seatgeek app. the settings tab and click add promo code enter the promo code ringer nbae seek equal send you $20 once you've made your first ticket purchase download the seek geek app and enter the promo code ringer nbaa today welcome to the ringer nbae show i'm chris varned joining me as he does every tuesday from the ringer dot com is kevin o'connor kevin kris kris what's going on man what's going on is i pulled up the ringer dot com this morning and there's still not a blow up the spurs article Kevin O'Connor. I am very disappointed. Well, not today, Chris. Maybe someday, but not today. We do have Kobe's, we do have

Kauai's Kobe reincarnated by Jason Concepcion, though. That's a good read. Of course. I've got to read about how awesome Kauai Leonard is. I'm waiting for the Kevin O'Connor. Obviously, I'm kidding. But for real, when is the article coming? I don't know, man. Maybe if the Grizzlies win the next two games by 50, then we might get it. Otherwise, it might be a Grizzlies should blow it up article. I've been reading those all season. I'll get back to the Grizzlies. I'll get back to the Grizzly Spurs series.

But let's talk about some of these series that are already over. First, Cavaliers Pacers is over. And it was an odd series because it was a rather competitive sweep. You've got the whole Paul George stuff that's clearly looming over the future of the Indiana Pacers. You have the Cavaliers who now, despite everybody saying, you know, should the Cavaliers lose, are there chinks in the armor of the Cavaliers? Is their defense going to be good enough? They still didn't lose a game in the end.

And so what do we make of the result of Cavs Pacers? And did you see anything that would make you believe that an Eastern Conference team could be more competitive than what you would have previously thought against the Cavs? in a possible East Finals. Or next round for that matter. I have two thoughts. Just to, you know, first kind of get the paces out of the way. I guess this is kind of what you, what some people in the NBA expected when they replaced George Hill with Jeff Teague and replaced Ian Mahoney with L. Jefferson.

Like they've replaced all defense for all offense. And they just had probably the worst defense out of any team in the playoffs. And they couldn't get stops at all in the Cavaliers. as bad as Cleveland's defense was, and as much as they do need to flip the switch, as you alluded to, Indiana's defense was even worse. They could not get stops. There's nothing that they could really do to contain Cleveland. As for the cavaliers, yeah, I mean, obviously, they need to improve defensively. It's going to be a lot harder for them the next two rounds, regardless of the opponent that they face. So they do need to flip that switch in a sense. I think, you know, we did see signs of them being able to do it. I think a big part of it is going to have to start with LeBron James. I think LeBron obviously is the guy in that team who sets the tone. Once he starts defending at a high level consistently, then maybe everybody else on the team falls in line. I think that's always a possibility that with him, it's just been little moments.

He had that chase down block. He turns it on occasionally in the half court. But for the most part, he still really lacks on that end of the floor. And that needs to change. I think once he really sets the tone, maybe everybody else follows. And that's what needs to happen for them. Okay, going into the finals last year, Cleveland lost two games, right?

They swept Detroit for Zip. They swept Atlanta for Zib, and then they dropped two games to Toronto. If I now put it, and you're already through one round, so you only got two rounds up. You got the conference semifinals and then the conference finals. If I put the over under on two, the amount of games that Cleveland will lose the rest of the way before the finals, would you take the over under or do you think it's right on the number? Over. I'd take the over. I think they could lose three or even four this year. I could see them go in six games in both the semis and the East Finals. I definitely could. Well, because it looks now like they're going to face Toronto. Yeah. And then, you know, whoever it is on the other side of the bracket, I could see it definitely losing three. I think two is two would almost be kind of surprising to me. What about you, Chris? Yeah, I think so too, especially because Toronto's the one team that beat them twice last year. And you want to talk.

Let's get into that. Well, first, let's get to the Warriors Portland. That was one of those where you could go to bed early because it's one of those that keeps you up late. But after the beginning of that game and you're seeing them in the 20s and Portland still stuck on three points, you're like, all right, we're done here. Like there's nothing that's going to happen in this thing that's going to be all that interesting. And so I was struck, though, watching that. you know, Portland was like 14 and 4, and the numbers were great with Nurkich starting. And I do think, I don't know, I don't know how many games they would have won, but I felt like that would have been so much more competitive.

And certainly if we, and I know the sample size was not huge, but if we are to say that their numbers with Nurkich were even somewhat sustainable, they were a lot better than your typical eight seed. but that injury, it feels like, and especially with the drop-off, because we're having to play Von Lay there at the beginning, like that injury just destroyed any chance of a competitive series. And then, of course, it ends last night with Golden State just burying them. Yeah, I mean, the Nurkich injury is, you know, really disappointing, obviously, I think. I wrote about this today on the ringer. I'm not convinced that, you know, Nurkich was this, you know, savior to their defense. I think he absolutely helped.

Their defensive rebounding numbers were way better. You know, he's great, good interior defender when he's hustling like he was for Portland. But at the same time, I mean, you look at the numbers. One of the big reasons why their defensive rating jumped so much with NERC, which is simply just for the fact that teams weren't hitting threes. And, you know, there's tons of studies. The guys at Nylon Calculus have done a lot on that on three point, opponent three point percentage. Seth Part now, who is now works in the analytics.

Department for the Milwaukee Bucks, you know, basically all the evidence points to the fact that opponent three point percentage is random. And if you look at the numbers, that's what dropped against Portland when, after they acquired NERCCH. Is that because of NERCCH? Maybe, maybe that they were forcing teams into less advantageous shots. Maybe that's possible. But perhaps teams are just missing more open shots or hitting more open shots when they had the opportunity. It's just random. And I think that was a big part of it for them. Their back court defense isn't good enough. And I think they really, really, really, really need to hit one of their three draft picks this year. They really need one of these guys to turn into their Jimmy Butler, their steel. They

need that extra guy to really compliment McCollum and Lillard, because there's not really another way for them to get it. Well, the other thing that's odd, and it kind of shows up in the playoffs, as you see these guys coming out. It's like, boy, you sure did spend a whole lot of money on Evan Turner and Alan Crabb. And what is the use? Yeah, I mean, that's a tough part, Chris, that, you know, that they're locked in. They're locked into their cap right now. They're over the cap.

They're, you know, barely under the luxury tax. And that's going to be the same thing next season, too. So, look, even if you were to dump one of those guys, you'd still be over the cap. And you'd still have to use your exceptions to sign guys. and the fact is is that free agency isn't an avenue for them to really add impactful talent and the trade market isn't either unless they were to put all their picks in the table and a filler contract but the same time I don't know if those picks have enough value to bring back the guy who really swings things in their favor they need that other star player so the thing

I wrote about today on the ringer is that you know Neil L. Shea L. Shea their general manager has a really strong draft record. And if I'm him, I'm doing everything in my power to either do one of the two things, consolidate two of those picks and move up into the lottery to get the guy that they perceive as a star, or keep all three of those picks in the draft and really just take three home run swings and hope to the basketball gods that one of those guys turns into a superstar or even two of them do. Because they're a guy away, you know, regardless of what you feel about the Lillard McCollum core and I don't love it defensively. I've, you know, I've written about that before and I touched on it again today.

But, you know, if you're going to maintain that, you need a star at the forward or or wing position or, you know, even a complimentary big man next to Nurkich. You need another star, so they need one of those picks to hit. You're dead on about the power forward thing. I think they, if they got a, like, really good power forward, I'm, you know, you've got Damien Lillard and you got C.J. McCallum, and I'm okay with a meanoo B. and my role player small forward and a rotation of him and Harkless or whatever. I don't think that that's the end of the world.

But you got to have something next to Nirkich. You got to have somebody because Nerkich is really the only guy that can play those front court positions for him. Yeah, you're right. I guess that's why it made it so damn important for them to get Nerkich. You know, the funny thing is, is like I just mentioned, you know, Olshe's drafting record. Acquiring Nerkich kind of falls into that.

same bucket, you know, an undervalued guy on a team, you know, where he just wasn't receiving the right opportunity. And, you know, you pounce on that chance. Maybe Nurkich was a guy that they liked in the draft, and they haven't forgot about him, despite his lack of success in Denver. And I hope, I hope Nurkich maintains his effort levels in Portland. That was really the key, you know, flaw with him prior to the draft. I had Nurkich ranked as a lottery pick in 2014. I loved him. You know, this is like Dean Damacus from Dean on draft.com used to call him the Bosnian boogie because he was so much like Demercus cousins. And we saw that with Portland. That's really who he became with some of his 20 and 20 games.

I hope it's insane. I hope it sustains. He's so fun when he's playing hard. Yeah. All right. The other outcomes from last night, Toronto walloped the bucks. That had been one of those series. and even going into last night, I remember thinking,

I really don't know what's going to happen in this. You know, you have these just extremes. You know, you and I talked about last week how you have this game where DeRosen is 0 for 8 from the field. It's the only time in NBA history that a player's average over 25 points a game and has an ofer like that. Of course, he bounces back and has the huge next game.

And then again, last night, extremely good. And this one is so hard to get a grass bomb because there have been times throughout this series where both of us, I think, have watched Toronto and gone, what the hell? And then other times, like last night, where they can look devastating at times. I think, you know, in some ways Toronto is starting to use what Milwaukee does best against them. Milwaukee plays such an aggressive scheme on defense. They were trapping or being really aggressive on DeRosen at times, even doubling at certain points. And they used that against them. It led to a lot of open shots for a guy like Norman Powell scored 25 points last night, four for four from three.

He was getting open shots early in the game, slashing opportunities, attacking closeouts. And that's what you want if you're on offense. You want open opportunities. Powell isn't a star player. He's not a big-name guy, but he can really beat you in different ways. and they got him some easy looks earlier in the game that I think kind of helped, you know, give them a lead. And they maintain that over the course of the game. So if you're Milwaukee, do you continue doing what you've done all season playing that super aggressive style on defense?

Or do you have to kind of, you know, turn down the intensity level a little bit and really just play these guys a little bit more straight up? And I kind of fall into that box where I do think that they do need to try to revise some things because Toronto looks like they figured them out. They are using what they do best against them. And if that's the case, Jason Kidd is going to have to make some adjustments. Well, because you know, they have no chance winning a game in the hundreds. You know what I mean? Like if Milwaukee's going to do this, 95's got to be enough to win the game. They scored 93 last night.

The problem is they gave up 118. They're just, they're not built for that. They don't have enough guys that can put the ball in the basket. They've got to win a slug fest. They've got to drag the game down into the mud. So I think you're right. I mean, the way Milwaukee's going to do it is by being long and trying to play half-court basketball on regular occasion against them. And then, you know, catch your Janus transition points here and there.

But generally, they're just not going to win a game in the hundreds against Toronto. It's just not going to happen. For sure. And another thing, like earlier in the series is it's becoming increasingly perplexing that Powell wasn't playing much on game one or two. Because, I mean, the way he's looked the last two games, outstanding. I mean, he looks like the same guy who was, you know, a really appealing draft prospect at UCLA. He, you know, in college, he was a streaky shooter, and I think that's a big reason why he fell in the draft. But he's still a streaky shooter now.

But he's seven for seven in the last two games from three. He's on that hot streak, and he's really doing what they need him to do offensively. And then defensively, he's playing his ass off like he always has on the defensive end. Fighting through screens. He's done a really good job, I thought, on Chris Middleton. And all those little things from your secondary players who aren't Kyle Lari or who aren't DeMarroes or even Sergei Baca for that matter, all that adds up into what was a 20 plus point victory for the Raptors.

And that's what Milwaukee needs from their other guys. It can't be all Janus. They need everybody else in that team to step up, not just offensively, but defensively, too. In regards to what I was talking about earlier, I mean, the games they have won two games in the series. they gave up 83 points in game one. They gave up 77 points in game three. Now, obviously, those are outliers. But you look at it as compared to, honestly, game five, or I'm sorry, game four would have been a really good chance because you've got that thing.

I mean, Toronto only scored 87. If you can hold Toronto to 87, you have to win that game. The problem was the buck scored 76, you know? Yeah. Shout out to the fans in that series. just a random thought. I think it's great. Bucks fans chanting Bucks and six after game four.

Raptors fans chanting raps in six after game five. The trolling from Bucks game operations with the girl kicking the raptor, twirling and dunking the ball and the Barney music intros. Dude, it's so fun. I kind of hope this series goes six. I mean seven. I know I'm not supposed to have a rooting interest, but I hope it goes seven just so we can see more craziness from the fans.

It's been a lot of fun watching it. the Hawks evened it up with the Wizards. I am surprised by this, Kevin. I thought, you know, the game three, you know, not unlike what happened with the Grizzlies and the Spurs. If a team is even going to get beat up in the series, usually game three is the one they get. They're back home. The other team has no reason to have their backs against a wall because even if they lose a game three, so what. The worst thing that can happen is we're up to one.

And so it's not that surprising if any team wins a game three. But for the Hawks to come back and win again last night in a game four was really impressive. And they were like super balanced last night. There was all kinds of guys making plays. Obviously Schroeder made some huge shots. Millsap made some huge shots. Dwight Howard had the double double. I was pretty impressed with the Hawks last night.

I thought I was really, I was all in on the Wizards after the first couple of games, but the Hawks have, they showed a lot of moxie these last two, I thought. Impressed by the Hawks and disappointed by the Wizards. That's just the way I came away feeling last night. Wizard's defense was so bad, Chris. Mistrotations, lack of communications,

open shots for Atlanta. Like, in some ways, I think Atlanta scored 111 last night. It felt like they could have scored over 120 just for the amount of open shots that they were getting. Wizards got problems, man. They're having issues defensively, and having issues defensively leads to less transition opportunities, which is where I think, you know,

John Wall is clearly at his best, as we saw with his around the world, left-hand incredible dunk, which is absolutely amazing to see. But even that dunk came in a blowout. Atlanta won that game, you know, by a fair margin. They have problems defensively, and they need to figure that out entering the next game. Otherwise, I think Atlanta is going to continue picking them apart. Their bench sucks.

I mean, he's not playing anybody, Kevin, and I know he got beat, Brooks got beat up last night. And I'm sitting there screaming too about not having Wall and Beal out at the same time. But listen, I want to couch this a little bit on the Brooks criticism because I know everybody kind of felt the same way. Like, you can't do that. But damn, you go look at the box score. Wall played 41. Beal played 39. Porter played 39.

in that game. I mean, you're not asking for all that. You ain't asking for a lot of time with these guys. Jason Smith played 24 minutes. He only played three other guys. Jennings played 11. Bogdanovich played 18. And Kelly Ubre played nine.

So you only had three guys even played double-digit minutes off your bench. And they can't withstand that. They can't even withstand like three minutes of these guys not playing. or else and you look and you it's it's hard to find like the answer the truth is their bench just it ain't there and so it's it's really amazing that you know just just in two minutes or three minutes whatever it was last night at the start of the fourth quarter that the game swung like that and really just kind of you know went away from them and i think that's really you know the root of why people were complaining though is you know if you're brooks you have to know that you need to keep one of those guys on the floor so whether it's

taking one of them out at the end of the third quarter, you know, keeping the other on and then, you know, flipping it at the start of the fourth, maybe that's the solution. Maybe it's just a simple tweak like that. But taking them both off the floor, that's a no-no. And I think if you're Scott Brooks, that's something you have to keep in mind, you know, going into next game. And, you know, the irony is not to jump around series here.

But this same thing happened with Oklahoma City, you know, the other night. Victor Oladivo and Russell Westbrook were off the court for like a two-minute stretch. and Oklahoma City got blown out and it was kind of the difference in the game. So it's kind of interesting to see similar sins being committed in two different series and two different conferences. Yeah, our buddy Zach Lowe,

I saw him tweet out this morning. Not a shocker. Wizard starters are plus 18 for the series. All other lineups minus 31 combined. Hey, let me say this too regarding because we haven't spent a lot of time on the Hawks at all this year. They don't get a lot of attention.

I think Boudenhulzer is an extremely good coach. I'll say this, though, they nailed it with that draft pick. I love Tori and Prince, Kevin. I think, I mean, he does not look like a rookie out there, and I'll be totally honest. Me, probably like everybody else. Remember when they traded up in the draft, and I was like, what the hell?

I thought that was high for him. I didn't expect him to be a lottery pick. And the track record of Baylor guys has frankly been very bad over the years. But Torrine Prince, I think they nailed it with him. And he looks totally ready for the big time. He doesn't look like a guy that's in the first year in the league playing in a high-leverage situation. Yeah, I'm with you, Chris. I'm a big fan of him now at this point.

And I look back at, you know, I tweeted this out yesterday from my, a 2016 NBA draft guide, scudding report of prints. And I'm like reading through, you know, the pluses and the slashes and the minuses of his game. And I'm like, why the hell did I have him rank 25th? I mean, like, I'm trying to think back, like, what made me put him so much lower than a lot of other guys who I felt had good upside and had potential to be, you know, really quality players behind, in front of him guy that I felt was pretty safe to be a quality

NBA player. And I'm just questioning, you know, why I did that. and I'm wondering, you know, in some ways if other teams or, you know, evaluators out there might have had him ranked the same way. I mean, I don't think my ranking was any different than a lot of other teams. Like you said, Atlanta took him 12th, a lot higher than a hell of a lot of people expected Prince to go. And so they might have viewed him as the guy who, you know, could fit right in right away. He turned 23 this season. You know, he's played a lot of years at Baylor.

You know, he's won a lot of games, played a lot of different situations. He's played a lot of different roles for that team. and really like his key weakness coming out of college was shot selection. You know, will he be able to really tone down, you know, some of the wild hero ball plays he makes? That was really the key sticking point with him is like, how good is his basketball IQ? And he fell into a situation that preaches equal opportunity,

that plays great motion offense that really, you know, I think has really just extinguished that flaw in his game. And they got rid of it quickly. He does the same damn things he did at Baylor. He hustles his ass off on defense. He can switch and defend multiple positions. He can hit spot up threes. He can attack close outs.

He can beat guys on the low post on switches. He does everything just as well now as he did in college. The only weakness was something that, you know, I think was maybe a little bit overblown. I over blew it. And looking back, I'm like questioning why I had him rank so low when I could have, you know, easily had him ranked higher. Just like the Hawks did. It was an incredible pick for them. And it's really paying dividends now.

Well, and you see when you nail it like that, I mean, his upside is so much greater than what I thought. I thought Tarame Prince, you know, he's a guy that he's probably not going to be bad. And he's going to have a career, right? He can be, at the worst, he can be a real hustle guy because the guy plays hard all the time. And a lot of guys have careers like that. But offensively, I mean, we're talking four games in the first playoff series of the kid's life. He's shooting 64% from the field and 50% from three. And just looks, I mean, there are times where he looks as good as anybody on that court.

And the court involves Bradley Beal and John Wall. Like, I don't, this kid is really showing glimpses, man. I think we could look up in a couple of years. And if he, if he progresses, they could have gotten a really big time player on their hands. Because he's the, he's the consummate two-way guy in the league where someone, many guys are really great on one end but deficient on the other he's got a chance to be great on both think think about you know the guys that we've talked about chris norman powell drafted as a upperclassman out of ucLA two years ago tarine prince another upper classman drafted this past

year we didn't touch on malcolm brogden but he could be the rookie of the year a lot of those upperclassmen come out and they're ready to play they're ready to contribute to playoff teams and I wonder if teams look at that with their late-round draft picks and think, you know, depending on their situation, you can either take a home run swing on a high-upside guy like I think Portland should do. But if you're another team where you feel like you can just slot a guy in and fit him into your rotation right away, that's another way of looking at it too. And Prince, Brogden, Powell, those guys are really showing how valuable they can be early in their NBA careers. Obviously, you've got a lot better chance if you get the number one pick in the draft.

But, you know, once you get past that, it has gotten very, very dicey over the years. And I don't want to rehash our whole, you know, teams should blow it up so they get really high draft picks. But you do look around the league and you see guys like Paul George, Kauai Leonard, this kid that we're all impressed with, you know, in the playoffs, Taurine Prince, Brogden, who's playing well for the bucks. I mean, there's some sense that it's just, you just got to hit it, man. the draft is hard, really hard. And even though there's sometimes I swear by and I end up looking foolish about or I swear by and I end up being right about, I mean, just look, right? You spend a lot of time pouring over this stuff and they just had to nail Taurine Prince.

And I wouldn't have nailed that. When they took him 12, I was like, what? And so when you see, and I don't know if Tarring Prince, he probably not going to be Paul George or Kauai Leonard. But the idea is, regardless of your draft pick, you just got to nail it because we have seen really good players being drafted at all different positions. And being at the top, and maybe it's just because the teams at the top are Fuless franchises generally. But that hasn't guaranteed much, you know, when we're looking around and we're seeing who the great players in the league are. There's so many different, there's so many different ways they were acquired, right?

and so many different draft slots that they were required. Definitely. I mean, yeah, I think, you know, later in the draft, it's more of a crapshoot. And, you know, up top, the odds are better that you land, you know, a cornerstone. I think, you know, if you look historically those top one to two picks, you know, even to the top three, that's your best chance at landing a cornerstone. But, you know, those guys can be found later in the draft. They always are.

And you just don't know it until they do become that guy. Jimmy Butler wasn't Jimmy Butler until he became. came Jimmy Butler. Draymond Green wasn't either. You know, you can go all the way down the list that those guys drafted in the 20 to 40 range. Rudy Gobert. I mean, just go down the line and those guys never came those guys until they did.

Look at all the best players on these teams right now. I mean, the best player, Paul Millsaps is the best player on the Hawks. He's a second round guy. The best player on the jazz is Gordon Hayward. Or if you wanted to argue, Gobert. But Howard, he's a high pick, but he was not a top five pick. Right. You look at that Toronto back court.

I think DeRosen was like eight or nine or something like that. Lowry was, you know, bottom 10 of the first round. I think he went like 17th or maybe he went like 17th or something like that years ago. You look around. Put it this way. He wasn't a lottery pick. I'm sorry? He wasn't.

You know, it's like bottom line, it's like those guys, like we talk about the importance of lottery picks. A lot of these guys just weren't drafted in the lottery. They weren't those like premier draft picks. that your fans are hyped about on draft night. That's for sure. All right, we've got to take a quick break, some words from our sponsors, and then we're going to get into the games that are going on tonight, including Oklahoma City, Houston, Memphis, San Antonio, and Utah and the Clips.

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That's Uber.com slash drive now. U-B-E-R.com slash drive now. Certain restrictions apply. See site for details. All right, Kevin. So the games tonight. Oklahoma City is having to go to Houston. Houston has a chance to close it out after what,

was a total mess of an end of a game. I've never seen anything like that game four. It was just a debacle and it ends up with Houston winning it and now they've got a chance to close out Oklahoma City in a fifth game tonight. I kind of feel like they're going to they're going to take care of business and they're just going to go ahead and end the series. I thought it had a chance to go really long, maybe even the seven games, if Oklahoma City won that game four. But I feel like they kind of, they left their chance on the table. They had a chance to win that game. They certainly played very well first half through the third quarter and then it went wrong

for them. And so I'm kind of thinking Houston takes care of business and ends that one tonight. What say you? I think so too. I mean, maybe if Andre Robertson hits his free throws, it'll be a little different. but if I'm Mike Dantone, I'm not going to stop hacking him. I'm just not. And I know our boss, Bill Simmons, tweeted this last week or earlier this week, you know,

that he liked the strategy. And I do too. I love the strategic element of the hackabank, the hack-a-shack. I realize I'm probably in the minority there. I know Roger Sherman from the ringer kind of feels the same way. I think it's exciting, man. I think it's a cool little wrinkle that the NBA has that if you have a poor free-throw shooter on the floor, you can hack that guy.

and make him hit shots. I just think it's cool. And if you're Roberson, I mean, if you're an NBA team and you have a guy like Andre Robertson who, you know, undeniably is an elite level defender,

elite defender, you know, top of his class, he's like a Tony Allen level first team all defense guy for the next 10 years. But he can't hit free throws and he's not a reliable three-point shooter.

He's hitting shots from three this year, this series, but it's a small sample size for, you know, historically he's like a, sub-28% guy from three. How much can you really lean on those guys in the playoffs if they become a liability when you can hack them and put them at the line or you can just not even defend them when

they're spacing the floor. Those guys, I think they're really important, but they have serious flaws that hurt you. This is perfect because we break apart completely on this. I hate it. I absolutely hate it. And I wish the NBA would change it. It's not basketball. It is smart.

I totally concede, much like Jeff Van Gundy said on the broadcast. If that's the rules, and that's the way you're allowed to play it, then play it that way. But I wish they would change it. If it's a shooting foul, then so be it. If it's in the course of playing basketball, then so be it. But what I wish would happen, because they don't allow it in the last couple of minutes, what I wish would happen is that you would have, that they, that the, that the, that the, team would be able to decline, that if you foul a guy totally away intentionally from anything

that has to do with the actual basketball game being played, that the team can decline it. And if that happens, then it would eliminate it completely. But I'd rather watch the games play out than put some guy on the free throw line to have to score free throws as his team's points. It drags the games out so long. I hate it. I find it to be, you know, it's only fun, right, when you're watching somebody die on the vine like Roberson did the other night, or Roberson did the other night. But, I mean, we've done it for years with, whether it's Dwight Howard or it's DeAndre Jordan.

And I get the theory of these guys should be able to hit free throws. I don't mind if they're getting fouled during the course of the basketball game. But to me, that's not basketball. I wish they would change it. I can't stand it. so my my issue with like you know let's let's say let's say you know the team didn't intentionally file roverson off the ball like one of the solutions you know people have said is like make it a technical or whatever how do you determine effectively if it's an intentional file or if it was

you know an accidental fall fighting off a screen or something like that off the ball i think you know in most cases you know it's obvious that it's an intentional file because they're grabbing the guy intentionally to put him at the line, but there are other instances where guys filed off the ball accidentally. And I think, you know, you would see teams starting to do that. I don't know where the line is for what referees would determine is intentionally filed or, you know, accidentally wink, wink intentional files. You know what I'm saying? And I think, you know, in some ways, maybe the best solution is just to make the whole game like it is in the last two minutes. I don't know, though. I have a problem, you know, with what all the proposed solutions,

for it and you know I'm biased here I just like the strategic element to it just you know philosophically I I would hate to see that removed just because it's such an interesting little quirk in the NBA I don't think there's that many guys where you can do it there's really not that many across the league that you're going to see playing deep into games or in big important games that are such horrible free throw shooters there's only a couple out there or it's even a viable option and I think for those guys it's just an interesting little quirk. And I understand, you know, the logic behind, you know, behind removing it. I get, you know, why it can be boring or drag games out. I just don't see it as a prominent issue at all. All right. I think that you and I are, we're different in many cases than many of our

reporter brethren. I don't think we take things nearly as seriously as some. I hope that's true. and so that's why I wanted to lead into this Russ press conference, which you don't strike me as the kind of guy that looks at that and watches it and be like, just answer the reporter's question, the guy's on deadline or whatever, right? I sit there. I was very taken aback by the criticism because in the end, all we want is interesting moments in these press conferences, right? and it was interesting. Like he, to me, it was way more fascinating for Russ to react the way that he did and way more interesting for Russ to react the way that he did than it would have been if he just gave some kind of bland nothing answer.

Like, you ain't getting some kind of great answer out of that, okay? I don't have any problem with the question. I don't have any problem with the reporter trying to stand up for himself. that guy, the back story there is Barry Trammell, there's like a long history there. Like I don't know, people may forget about this, but Barry Trammell is the guy that years ago, when the Grizzlies went up on the Oklahoma City Thunder and Tony Allen was shutting down Kevin Durant, or not shutting down, but making him super inefficient, they had a headline in the Oklahoma paper, Mr. Unreliable.

and it was a whole article by Barry Trammell just killing Durant, right? And that is so uncommon in Oklahoma City. I give Trammell credit because he's obviously, he's willing to do whatever, right? He ain't playing to the crowd necessarily. But all those guys kind of have a history with Trammell. So I do think that the guy asking the question had not a little bit, but rather a lot to do with the reaction. And that's just a little background on that. That being said, the way Russ reacted, I mean, hell, it gave us like a great moment.

And most of these press conferences, you don't get a great moment. And it is kind of funny, right? Because it is, it kind of feels like it was very symbolic, right? Russ being, I'll take this. Because it's like, that is the thunder. Russ, he's going to take it, dude. You don't get the talk. Yeah, I'd say Sean Fantasy's article on The Ringer,

called Against Russ kind of sums up a lot of how I feel about this. I think, I don't look, I mean, in terms of Russ, you know, intercepting the question, I mean, it's drama, it's sports hair. It's not like, you know, we're talking about politics where, you know,

it's a pressing question that needs to be answered, right? It's not like it's like that. But it really did represent who Russ is as a person on the court, as a player. And, you know, of all, a lot of things that we hear about him, you know, in the locker room. I know Barry Trammell was in an interview yesterday. Forgive me, I forget which station it was,

but he cited an article that he read before that, you know, interviewed a player from every locker room, like, who controls the music? And for OKC, Josh Houston responded, and he's like, you know damn well who controls the music in our locker room. And if we put something on that he doesn't like, he'll change it right away.

And so it just was symbolic of how controlling Russ on the court, in the locker room, and maybe in the bus and on the planes to traveling between games. I thought, you know, I thought Rush should have let Stephen Adams answer the question, but at the same time, it's who Russ is, for better or for worse, and that's why I think Sean's article really hit the nail on the head. Memphis, San Antonio. Well, Kevin. Chris is hyped. I kind of would rather, I think I'd rather hear your analyses on this.

Because I am hopeful. Hear me out. The Grizzlies were getting stomped through the first game and a half of this series. In the second half of Game 2, they re-inserted Zach Randolph into the starting lineup. They moved James Ennis into that lineup. And since that point, they have found themselves not only being very competitive, they cut that, they were down 19 and they cut the lead to four, I believe it was, in game two. four, it just wasn't enough. And then they, and then Fisdale went on the rant after game three.

And they came back and they won a game four at home, which I figured it was going to be, you know, Hornets Nest inside the, inside FedEx forum and that they'd be all hype. And, but it was, and then in game four, they withstood a 43-point supernova performance by Kauai. And they turned the ball over 23 times and still won. And in fact, no team in the last 20 years has turned the ball over that much against a Greg Popovich team and still won. So I think they've got a lot of confidence in being able to be super competitive against this team. And so I'm thinking if you can beat him when Kauai goes for 43 and you can beat him when you turn it over 23 times, then that tells me something. On the other hand, I wake up this morning and Las Vegas has the line at 10, so there's a little bit of reality, you know?

They don't have all those lights for being that wrong. So I'm interested to hear what you think about the way you think this could play out in the game five. So I think, you know, everybody would agree that the Spurs have the best player in the series in Kauai Leonard. But kind of what I'm starting to realize is that the Grizzlies clearly have the second and third best players of Mike Conley and Marcus Sol. and they have perhaps the fourth best player too if you'd take Zach Randolph over Lamarcus Aldridge and I know our guy resident Spurs fan, Shea Serrano probably would,

and I think a lot of people would probably take Randolph over Aldridge as well because of the rebounding and the toughness that he provides compared to Aldridge who is more just a peribbiter, you know, scorer who doesn't, he only grabs two rebounds and 42 minutes. So I think, you know, you could make an argument that the Spurs have the best player, but the Grizzlies have the next best three. And I think that's kind of where the difference has been made, because the Spurs aren't getting anything from anybody other than Kauai Leonard.

Nobody else is doing anything in the series for them. In Game 4 that you alluded to, two for 20 from three. Everybody else on the Spurs, except for Kauai. Two for 20 from three, and they have good shooters on their team. And if you look throughout the whole series, Danny Green is only four for 17 from three. Genoblee is 0 for 10. Tony Parker is 5 for 9, but that's kind of a little bit misleading

because the Grizzlies are really playing. off him and not defending him much, which is, you know, hurting spacing for the rest of their team. And I just, I just wonder when other Spurs are going to get more from their guys other than Kauai? And can they even get more at this point? Because Genoblee does not look like the men of Genobley that we've seen for years. He looks like he's kind of hit a wall in many respects. And these guys have looked like this before and then they've turned it on. But there's got to come a time where maybe these guys really just are finished.

And the other part of this is Chris that Dwayne Deadman out for game four, you know, he hasn't been quite, you know, as good in the second half of the season, and Popovich has kind of weaned off his playing time. But I think they need that guy. They need Dwayne Dedman because of the room protection he provides, and he's kind of a rim runner on offense. David Lee, you know, he can pass the ball. He can do some things for you.

But Powell Gasol has looked horrible on defense. I think Deadman's the guy that they really, really need to elevate his game going forward in this series. They need him to step up and I need other people to start hitting shots. Two things. If I did not have ultimate respect for and there is in the back of, in the deep recesses of my mind a little fear, I was so close to sending out to our buddy Shea, who I've had a war with throughout this series, then because we are such nice folks in the South, we weren't going to bury Genobley's body here,

but rather we are going to send it back to San Antonio. Joe. Kevin, he hasn't made a shot. He has not made it. They've played four games. He hasn't made a shot. It's the damnedest thing I've ever seen in my life. Like, he's not a dead body.

You know what I mean? Like, and that's what I'm scared. Like, there's going to be some progression to the mean, right? Like now watch him go like 10 for 10, right? So then you, isn't that the most spurs thing ever? And then you look up at the end and he's shooting 50% for the series. You're like, wait, what? And so that one scares me a little bit.

The other thing is the spurs, what the Grizzlies have made them do is not play team basketball. They are always the extra pass team. That's how they kill you. And you saw anybody that watched the end of that game, the 16 straight points from Kauai, when you said it's Kauai and nobody else, that was like Westbrook. That was like Hardin. That was one guy taking over. Kobe. Yeah.

And nobody else doing anything. It was bizarre. But being in the arena for that, I've never seen anything like it, Kevin. He was totally unstoppable. And it's one thing to be, you know, I think everybody has noticed how great Kauai has gotten offensively. but he's still, it's kind of within the Spurs context in people's minds, right? That was not a Spurs context. That was a, give me the ball, I'm scoring every, like something, like freaking Jordan or something.

It was bananas. I think, so I'm pulling up synergy sports stats right here, just out of curiosity. And in the regular season, like this is a small sample, but, you know, it's just, you know, it alludes to your point that In the regular season, the Spurs used an isolation. They ended their possession with an isolation. So like a one-on-one, you know, only 6% of the time on possessions that ended in a shot, a free throw, or a turnover. In the playoffs, that's nearly doubled to 10%.

So they're doing more isolations. They're seeing more isolation opportunities, especially with Kauai Leonard. And as you said, the Grizzlies are limiting their ball movement. I'd be curious to dive into their passing stats if they have fewer passes per possession or whatever. But I do think that's a little bit indicative of how their offense has changed in this playoff series. It seems like Kawhi Leonard is isolating a whole lot more than he did during the regular season. I just wonder if that's partially the spurs getting away from kind of what got them there. I think, you know, Kauai looking at his numbers too, he's seeing an uptick in isolation since obvious watching them.

I wonder, but that's kind of the inherent problem is like other guys aren't playing well. So I think, you know, if nobody else on the floor is a threat, that suddenly turns all the focus onto Kauai Leonard. Well, and I think this is what Vegas sees. The Spurs need to find ways to get other guys going. I think this is what Vegas is counting on and probably a lot of people, which is San Antonio, in the end, there are a 60 win team who over the years have been very good at figuring out, okay, here's, here are the issues we are having. and here's how we are going to fix said issues, and we have seen it over and over again. And sometimes it hasn't been able to get figured out, right?

It didn't get figured out last year in the playoffs. They just realized they were in a bad matchup, and they didn't have the horses, and so they got ousted. That being said, they're, to your point about nobody doing anything else in the shooting on the road, they only, they, every other player but Kauai Leonard, in the two games that were played in Memphis, hit nine three-pointers. In the two games that were played in San Antonio,

they hit 18. So there is a, it is, all right, like everybody says, there's an old cliche, and I don't even think it's a cliche, it's a truth, that role players, complimentary players, play better at home.

And they do. Likewise, the Grizzlies wing players were very good in Memphis while being atrocious in San Antonio. And so I do think you're going to be able to look at, you know, those guys, the wing players for San Antonio, the wing players for Memphis, and it's going to decide, you know, what happens. Because you go back to the regular season, neither of these two teams have won on the other's

home court. And a lot of it is the other guys and what they've been able to do. And usually, I think in the past, San Antonio has been immune to that. Like they're pretty well awesome everywhere. But this year, they're kind of like everybody else in the sense that they've been much more comfortable at home. And part of it's that they're winning, right, at home. And everybody that's here with San Antonio, Kev, has told me that they are a team that you just have to, that you've got to punch them in the mouth. It's not the easiest thing to do.

But punch them in the mouth, get really physical with them because this Spurs team is more of a front. running team where once they get on top of you and they're feeling good about themselves and they're whipping the ball around. But once you punch back and land one on them, you know, they don't, they ain't got a lot of tough guys on that team, right? And there's no Tim Duncan to really settle everything down. So I don't know. I don't know what the hell is going to happen, honestly. I think it's, um, but I'll tell you this, the city of Memphis is on frigging fire right now for the team. I mean, after the Fisdale right and then winning the two games. Huh?

They should be feeling good. Yeah. I guess we'll see. I still take Spurs and Six, though, to be honest with you. You dick. All right. You Dawn and the Clippers. Two, two.

Two, two. Right now. I so Joe. With the, uh, I, I loved that. I loved that so much that a Jazz Clippers game the other night. And Joe Johnson turning back the clock a decade was just so great. You know, Gordon Hayward, he looks like death. I know he had the food poisoning and he tried to give it a go.

And then it was like, all right. And I felt like, man, the Gobert playing was a surprise to me. and then the Gordon Hayward not playing was a surprise to me. But Joe Johnson there at the end of that game and then that fourth quarter was that was one of my favorite playoff moments watching that they play out between Utah and the clips. Clips obviously since we last spoke, no, they're going to be without Blake Griffin. Chris Paul's like, he's the best guy. You're right?

He's still the best guy in the series. But what are you thinking on Clips Jazz? This is obviously a monstrous game tonight. I mean, you already mentioned Joe Jawsson. I mean, just unbelievable seeing him, you know, do what he's always done at 35 years old. You know, besides that, Joe Ingalls, that dude can play defense, man. And he makes great players on offense. 11 assists to two turnovers, ran a really tight pick and roll.

You know, I tweeted this during the game. I can't wait to see what he gets paid this summer. You know, I know he's about to be turned 30 years. years old, but that dude can play, man. It's crazy, too, right? He's a guy you can fit anywhere. He looks at, he looks like maybe a bit taller. He looks like every dad that I have to hang out with at birthday parties for my kids

on the weekend. Like, he looks nothing. Like, if that, if that guy walked in to the, to the trampoline park for some birthday party, I'll have to go to this weekend. And he was like, I'll play for the jazz. Everybody would be like, get the hell out of here. What are he talking about? You played for the Joe.

Yeah. Okay, buddy. Right? He looked nothing like a guy that would be having an awesome series in the NBA. Bananas. Hey, man. Hey, he is. And the Clippers are getting back a guy who a lot of people expected to be a great player.

Son of a coach. Austin Rivers, you know, had a solid freshman season at Duke. He was a disappointment in his career until he went to L.A. And it's kind of odd that, you know, now, you know, if you're a Clippers fan, you've got to be breathing a sight of relief that Austin Rivers is coming back. He had a great season on the defensive end of the floor. I think it's really, really important that they get him back because they need to figure out, you know, how to defend the Utah Jazz, especially when they go small with, you know, a smaller guy at the four and go with only one big on the floor. Because, you know, without Blake Griffin, I think, you know, their main issue that they had, you know, in that game four is Wesley Johnson can't play. anymore. Paul Pierce, sorry Paul, he can't play anymore either. They need Austin Rivers back. He's only a

guard. He's undersized compared to Pearson Johnson, but at least he grinds on defense. That guy fights. And I think, you know, if Rivers is healthy and he can play right away, that's going to be a big boost to L.A. But even then, I'm really not sure it's enough because, you know, Gordon Hayward, you know, assuming he's back and he's healthy tonight, I don't know, man. I still think Utah, you know, is really an edge of this series. I thought it was like a 50-50 coin flip in the first place. I still think L.A. can compete and, you know, stay close in games without Blake Griffin. But Utah with Gobert back and, you know, Hayward's healthy, that really swings things in their way.

Well, and that's the thing you see in the Gobert less games, especially the two Clipper wins. You had DeAndre with 18 and 15 and 17 and 13. He comes back and it's 12 and 10, which is still, obviously, it's. still a double double. But those six, five, eight, ten points that he might, that he would inevitably get with Gobert out of the lineup could be the difference in the games and possibly the series. Because once you, if you can take away a lot of the D'Andre Lobbs, his offense is inconsequential, right?

and that's when you really start to miss Blake. I thought that I thought they wouldn't miss Blake all that much if DeAndre's still there and Gobert can't play. But if Gobert can play, which I did not expect them to play this series. I guess I just read that wrong. But if Gobert can play, now you are totally neutralizing what would be another real offensive weapon for the Clippers. and I don't know, man. I think I'm kind of with you. With the simultaneously,

Blake going out, Gobert coming back in. I think that I would not be surprised if Utah ends up winning this. And you can't trust the clippers. Who can trust the clippers? I don't think DeAndre was as good defensively

in game four either. I don't even know how much that had to do with Gobert or anything. It just doesn't seem like he had the same life on that end of the floor. He had no blocks. I thought a game's two and three. He just wasn't as good.

He had no blocks in the game. No blocks. I mean, the guy can touch the top of the backboard. You know, they throw him in all. He has to be in all kinds of pick and rolls. Like, and even help side. It's very bizarre. It was bizarre for him to have zero blocks in the game.

And again, those are points off the board. So I just, I don't know, man. Plus the other thing is after the, they had, it felt like Utah had kind of blown it in game three, right? That was, I expected Utah to win that game three, and instead they blew that one. So anyway, that series is really, really good. And I would be surprised if any of those games are decided by over a, like, by a double-digit margin. I don't think either of those teams are really going to run away from each other.

You're probably going to get close games all the way to the end. If it went seven, it wouldn't shock me at all. Don't you think? No, same air, seven. I still view it, you know, mostly as a coin flip, but, you know, the edge is definitely, you know, in Utah's favor at this point. I'd give them like 55 to 60 percent odds. All right. Last thing, resuming tomorrow is going to be the Celtics and the Bulls.

A week ago when we spoke about this, you were done with the Celtics, and for good reason, because Rondo was dominating the series. They were just having, they were having a hell of a time dealing with the Bulls. but then it is announced that Rondo is not going to be playing anymore. They end up going with Michael Carter Williams and Grant, and Hoyberg's got like no chance with the point guards. He's trying to throw out there. And it feels like that Rondo injury, it clearly flipped the series completely.

The Bulls looked like the better team for the first two games. And I do not think they can win that series without Rondo. There was just such a massive difference in the way that team looked. And we talked about the drop off to whoever you have to play instead of them. That drop off is just so severe that it feels like the Bulls, they were going to be this crazy story. But now I think they're probably going to find their end here. And I'd be surprised that they win another game, honestly, the Bulls.

In the series, unless he comes back with the damn cast on it. or something? Huh? What if Rondo comes back? I'd say he comes back heroically tomorrow night. Do you give him hope even with the hand injury? Yes. If you told me he was coming back, yes.

I mean, hell, I put a day... I'd rather have Rondo... I'd rather... If you told me Rondo got his arm cut off tonight, I'd rather have him out there than Michael Carter Williams or the Grant kid. I'd rather have one-arm rondo. We have one-armed rondo. I'd rather have him out there.

Forget about cutting off his arm, if his arm was just tied behind his back. Hey, I know. And then his wingspan still might be longer. He's got long-ass arms. But then, you know, like that, hey, you know what's hysterical? You know those old clips they always show, like when you're watching like NBA TV or instant classics or they're showing some kind of montage of great moments in NBA history?

And you see Bob Coozy dribbling around with one hand. hand, right, and throwing that ball up in the air. You know, he's like dribbling like in a, almost like a figure eight to like end off the NBA finals and then he just throws it up in the air. That could be Ron, though. Don't make fun of Fred Hoyberg's preferred style of play. He doesn't like traveling or palming the ball. That's how Fred Hoyberg likes the game to be played.

Fred Hoyberg, I could not believe that press conference. I'm like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? This guy just averaged like 30 points a game for the whole season. And now, like, I don't even know what the, like, there's just, like, I think that there is part of it where, like, and I liken it to the, to the Fisdale rant that the Grizzlies coach did, which was there is, A, you're sending a message to your team, B, even if it doesn't have an effect, you let it be known to the NBA and their officials that you think you're getting screwed. And who knows what kind of effect that's going to have, but at least you let it be known, right? But if you're Fred Hoyberg, what the F is the point? Like, there's just no way to come out of that unless you really think that we're going to get into game five.

And a minute into the game, some official who's never called it in his life is going to go carry on. They start calling Isaiah Thomas for carries. Like, what? I don't understand it. Like, there are so many, if you're going to like try to deliver. a message with the intent of something changing, the idea that you want to go out and bitch about Isaiah Thomas carrying the ball, and that's the reason that he is so hard to guard. It's just bizarre.

I don't know, man. What did you think? I just thought it was goofy. I thought the last question he was asked during his post-game press conference. I forget, you know, I'm paraphrasing here, but the question was basically, you know, when does that get called? And Hoyberg paused for a second, and he's like, well, it's a, it's a, the league emphasizes it before each season that this is going to be something that they're calling. And it's like, look, this isn't really something I want to, you know, get into.

And then he got up, you know, the press conference was over. The point was that he didn't have a response because it's never called. And that's the way the NBA is today. It's just, it's something that you can't complain about. It's like saying the team shoots too many threes. They need, that's the way the game is played now. That's the way it's officiated. Look, if they start blowing the whistle on Isaiah Thomas for palming the ball or discontinuing his dribble, as Horberg said, you can do the same exact thing with Dwayne Wade and Jimmy Butler and Rajan Rondo if Rondo's back.

You can do the same thing with those guys, just like you can do the same thing with any star player on any team playing in the playoffs right now. I just think it's a weird thing to complain about. And if it was to get his guys going, he missed the punchline, man. He didn't have the punchline like David Fisdale did. There was nothing from that people are going to remember. and I'm sticking that behind. They're not going to rook us, take that for data. He didn't have either punchline or emotion when he made the statement.

He missed that. You know what his punchline? He was going to complain. You know what his punchline was, which this is, in fact, here, let me give a shout out to everybody. Boston is the one that should make the T-shirt from the Fred Hoyberg slogan. Because if you go back and watch it, you know what his punchline is? He's just impossible to guard. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That would be, if I live. in Boston, I would have a shirt with Isaiah Thomas's head on it that says just impossible to guard. Did you see Isaiah after the game? He was asked about Horiburk's comments, and he's like, I'm not sure if that's why I'm impossible to guard. Yeah, right. Like, seriously, bro, I'm like five foot six, like enough already.

Oh. You know what I mean? Oh, last thing before we head out of here, Kev, you said earlier you wanted to go look up about the Spurs and the isolation plays or rather not playing as much team basketball. I just happen to have this come

across my email in preparation for the local pregame that the Grizzies are going to be doing, but that one of the things they're going to talk about. The Spurs have recorded assists on just 43% of their made field goals

this postseason. The lowest percentage of any NBA team. They have the lowest percentages for assists on field goals made so far are San Antonio 43%, Houston, 44%, Blazers 44, Cleveland 49, Clippers 51. So given their reputation, it is shocking that San Antonio, when I said earlier, your eyes tell you they're not playing team basketball like they used to, but in fact, they have assisted on less field goals than any of their peers in the postseason so far.

I am surprised to see the rockets up there, honestly. I'm surprised that rockets are second. It feels like they're moving the ball around. And obviously you've got the whole hardened driving kick stuff going on. That one's kind of shocking to me. That's like some Raptors level regular season numbers for assist percentage. I don't see Antonio being so low. I don't have their numbers in front of me for the regular season,

but I would assume it's significantly higher than that. And I'm just, I pulled up their sport view numbers just to do a little bit of math real quick. And this stat right here, this is what I was looking for. This isn't, you know, totally accurate. And it's probably just two random numbers, so it doesn't mean a lot. But in the regular season, the Spurs made passes 1.3 times per minute. And that's dropped to 1.1 in the playoffs. That might be because of a slower pace.

There's a lot of variables here. Yeah. But, you know, it's another indication that they're not passing the ball quite as much now in the playoffs as much as they were in the regular season. Well, it's going to be a great night. You've got Oklahoma City, Houston, Memphis, San Antonio, and Utah, and the Clips. Another awesome night for basketball. I will catch up with you soon.

Thanks, Kevin. Hey, man. Oh, one last thing. I'm doing an AMA on Reddit tomorrow. Thank you to Reddit for inviting me to do that. That'll be at Noontime Eastern. I'm looking forward to that. Oh, perfect.

out on Reddit NBA so check that out dig that that all right tomorrow check out Kevin O'Connor you can follow

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