The Ringer NBA Show - Take That for Data! With Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 99)

Episode Date: April 18, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss David Fizdale's postgame rant (3:00), Kawhi's historic efficiency (14:00), Kevin Love's lack of shots (18:00), Raptors déjà vu (23:00), the Bucks defense (29:00), Bulls-Celtics (33:00), the loss of Rudy Gobert (40:00), Hawks-Wizards (44:00), Thunder-Rockets (48:00), and Warriors-Blazers (54:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor. Kevin. Hey, Chris. What's going on, man? Well, we wake up this morning, and it seems like the biggest story that came out of last night's game is Memphis Grizzly's coach David Fisdale. And it is not so often that we get an epic basketball rant, but it feels like David Fisdales is one that will not be forgotten soon. Let's play it and then get into it.

You know, it's unfortunate that I got a guy like Mike Connolly who in his whole career has got zero technical files and just cannot seem to get the proper respect from the officials that he deserves. It was a very poorly officiated basketball game. Zach Randolph, the most rugged guy in the game, had zero free throws, but somehow Kauai Leonard had 19 free throws. First half, we shot 19 shots in the paint and we had six free throws. They shot 11 times in the painting. They had 23 free throws. I'm not a numbers guy, but that doesn't seem to add up.

Overall, 35 times we shot the ball in the paint. We had 15 free throws for the game. They shot 18 times in the paint and had 32 free throws. Kauai shot more free throws than our whole team. Explain it to me. We don't get the respect that these guys deserve because Mike Connolly doesn't go crazy. He asks class, and he just plays the game.

But I'm not going to let them treat us that way. You know, I know Pop's got pedigree and I'm a young rookie, but they're not going to rook us. That's unacceptable. That was unprofessional. My guy's dug in that game and earned the right to be in that game and they did not even give us a chance. Take that for that. All right. So first things first, which is the better line?

They're not going to rook us or take that for data. Look, I think take that for data just with the pound of the table, it like the better overall moment but I have to say they're not going to work us with the better line if we're talking strictly about script yeah take that for data feels like it's going to live for a long time that that's going to be the yep you play to win the game you know take that for data yep chase errone especially when it comes to film versus data articles or arguments it's got that's the argument people are going to use take that for data Well, listen, you wake up this morning and on the ringer,

Shea Serrano has already immortalized the quote by giving, I believe it was like 20 something reasons to use take that for data. So people can go check that out in different circumstances in life in which you say it. So obviously the lines and the epic post-game performance is going to get a lot of talk. And it's going to probably overshadowed the message, which is that he thinks. the Grizzlies got cheated last night. What say you?

So, okay, I don't know about every call. I don't know about every situation. But I found an interesting that he pointed out, Zach Randolph, the most rugged guy in the NBA, as he said, didn't get any foul calls, which he didn't. But the thing is, I watched all 18 shots he took last night, and only on the last shot that he took with the Marcus Alder's defending, he was hit on the forearm, and there definitely should have been a whistle.

Other than that, I don't think there was any shots that he took where there should have been a whistle. There was one where Pao Gasol was crowding him and there arguably was contact on lower body, but his hand, but Gasol's hands were straight up. And I don't think there would have been a whistle there. Whereas on the other end, he mentioned Kauai Leonard, classless Kauai Leonard. I think he was clearly followed on all of them except for the last one when Mark Gasol had his hand straight up and looked like he blocked a shot and they blew the whistle.

That one definitely should not have been a whistle in my opinion. But other than that, it looked like for those two guys specifically, it was pretty well officiated. I don't know about every call though. And that's where he's going to look back and watch the film because as he said himself, he's not a data guy. So I think he'll look back and see that Randolph probably didn't get many whistles last night, at least on the shots that he took. I don't know about every other possession. Yeah, that was a standing up for our guys. You just figure there's no way he took that many shots without getting hit. Conley got hit a bunch. And then there was a couple big ones where Marcusal caught an elbow to the face.

Jamichael Green caught an elbow to the face and like none of these things got called, right? And many of them happened right in front of them. And I will tell you, just for a backstory for everybody out there, because I know this didn't get a lot of attention. But about, you know, right going into about the last week of the season, the Grizzlies played a game on the road at San Antonio, a game that went to overtime. And in the fourth quarter of that game, with about three minutes and 30 seconds left in the game, they had moved Kauai Leonard onto Mike Connoll. they ran into each other, like butted heads, right? And Conley laid on the ground bleeding profusely. He had to go straight to the locker room and get a bunch of stitches.

And so your point guards laying on the ground bleeding, and they called an offensive foul on Conley. So there's a backstory to this, right? Fisdale was already furious still about that, right? this idea that these two guys can run into each other and my guy can be laying on the ground with a bloody head and they still give the call to Kauai Leonard, right? Like they still, the guy is on the ground bleeding and he got called for an offensive foul. And so if you go with that, if you know that backstory going in, then it's going to be very difficult for him to view things through the prism of,

of we're getting a fair shake because, hell, he's seen his point guard laying in the ground in a pool of blood and get a foul called on him. And so he's, you know, he's already, he's already honorary about that stuff, right? And about Kauai getting every call. Now, you say you watched everything back. You didn't think that Kauai got favorable calls. I think I read this morning it was like the third most free throw attempts of playoff history or some crap.

I mean, it is a huge number. It's a huge number. Look, I think, you know, you're right with that back story. On that Conley play that you're mentioning from a week or two ago, I don't think it should have been a call. I hate seeing offensive calls called on situations like that because both guys pushed, right? I think that's really just a no call, in my opinion. I hate when officials blow the whistle on one end or when they call double technicals. I wish those were the types of calls that they got out of the game.

And that play, look, I get it, right? And I'm sure at the end of that game, like the two plays I mentioned, right? the last shot Randolph took I thought there should have been a whistle and the last one Kauai took when Grasol was called for a file shouldn't have been I think those last calls probably were in David Fiziel's mind when he went up to the podium

last night when all those guys went back in the locker room when they were making a push and those were the two miss calls of those guys obviously we're just talking strictly about them that's got to be really frustrating especially when they cut it to I think seven last night was it seven or was it six they cut it to five

Five. Okay. That game got fun, didn't it? Hey, and here's the thing. They're going to get a more favorable whistle in game three. You better believe they're going to get a more favorable whistle. They just will. Perhaps.

They will. They will. And here's what I'll say. Regarding the series, they obviously got totally blasted in game one to the Grizzlies. In game two, the second half, once Fizzdale, and see all of the series. all of the rant stuff is going to cover up everything else that happened. But once Fisdale decided, I'm re-inserting Zach Randolph back in the starting lineup. It's the best chance I have.

I'm going to play Mike Conley, Markasol, and Zach Randolph. And then he flanked them with James Ennis and Vince Carter. So he made a big adjustment at halftime and changed the lineup. And it worked out great for him. It did. And part of that's because he's playing established NBA players as a unit together. The Grizzlies have tried to roll out there lineups with Wayne Selden, who started the game. He wasn't in the NBA a month ago.

And Andrew Harrison, who for an entire season, has shot less than 35% from the field, you know, it feels like he's going to really tighten it up and maybe at least, who knows. But I would be surprised if the next two games aren't competitive against San Antonio because it feels like at least maybe the Grizzlies figured a little something out in the second half and that that Gasol and Randolph pairing while Randolph was so bad in game one might be able to do some damage and at least keep the Grizzlies in the game and that's what you have to do against San Antonio. You got to stick around and give yourself a chance and not let their four-point lead turn into an 11-point lead turn into a 16-point lead, you know?

You can't put Wayne Seldon out there, I don't think, at least against Koward. Leonard. Kawhi just was driving past him with ease in the first half last night. It looked like at certain times Selden's feet weren't even moving by the time Leonard was past him. It was insane. And then obviously, like you said, Ennis is the guy that has to play. I mean, it's without Tony Allen out there, I think James Ennis is the guy you really have to lean on to contain Kawhi Leonard or at least try to because Wayne Selden last night, he looked totally incapable of doing it and you can't blame him. The dudes play like eight NBA games with the Grizzlies. He hasn't been with them for long. And look, that's a tough injury with Tony Allen.

I think when that injury happened, that changed everything. That changed the entire game plan for this entire series. And look, Memphis could have made this, I think, go six maybe with Tony Allen, just simply having him on the floor to really battle against Kauai Leonard. But without him, man, I don't know. I think even on their home court, it's going to be really hard because you only have so many bodies you can rely on. Because you still look around and go, who can they put on Kauai Lennon? and the answer is that player just doesn't exist.

You can look down your bench all you want. That guy's not bare. And so you just got to pray he misses a bunch of shots, right? Exactly. He's got to have an off night and he certainly didn't have one last night. He had one of the most efficient nights in the last 35 years. I wrote something on the ringer about that. 37 points on 14 shots.

So we'll see what happens after game three, which I will tell you, just in being around it, it would have felt like an absolute, like you're going to a funeral for game three. And that will not be the case anymore because of Fisdell's rant. That's the truth. It will, like, it's the big, you know,

the whole collective chip on your shoulder. You're not going to cheat us. You know, we're going to fight, blah, blah, blah, right? Like, that's the way it's going to be. And so that arena will be on fire on Thursday night where it would have been, people feel like you're just walking to a funeral. Like that, it did change, it changed that, right?

And sometimes, especially in these series, right, atmosphere matters a lot if the crowd can get on top of you and really give you a push. So we'll see what happens with that. The other game was the Cavs and the Pacers. Kind of looked like the calves were going to run off on them. And then here come the Pacers down the stretch, making a game of it. Paul George was hitting some fantastic shots. And I don't know, man.

I think the calves are having a little bigger problem with the Pacers than what I had suspected. What about you? I don't know. So like on Monday, I wrote like how, what if there's no scoreboard? Like what would be the score you would assign to these games between Cleveland and Indiana? And I just don't feel like it's that close. They beat them by one in game one. They beat them by six last night.

And I just don't feel like it was that close. I just feel like Cleveland has totally outplayed them. I feel like each game, if I didn't know the score, I feel like if I was assigning points to each team, I would assume it was like a 10 to 15 point win for Cleveland. Their defense is still horrible and they need to fix it before the next round and definitely before the Eastern Conference finals and maybe the finals. They absolutely need to fix it. It's an issue. But against Indiana, it doesn't matter because Indiana's defense is way worse than Cleveland's is. They cannot stop Cleveland in the pick and roll at all.

There's like literally nothing that they can do on that end of the floor to stop Cleveland. When Paul George on the offensive end is the only guy they can really lean on. They have solid players. Miles Turner is just too young to lean on at this point. Jeff Teague is up and down. And besides that, look, Lance Stevenson's fun, but I tweeted it this morning and I totally believe it in my heart. He's a better meme than he is a basketball player.

And if you're relying on a guy like that, you're probably not going to win games, especially against the Cleveland Cavaliers who are the best team in Eastern Conference, despite the fact that they had only the second best record. And while you mentioned Kauai Leonard in this incredibly efficient night, Kevin Love. I mean, good grief. What do you have? What a nice for him? 27 on seven.

27 points on seven shots is crazy. He had a stretch Chris in the third quarter where he was just totally dominating Lance Stevenson. And it was kind of comical in a way because on one of the plays, he just totally bullied him back underneath the room and drew a file. and on that play, Lance Stevenson kind of threw her tantrum and slammed the ball off the court. That was the play where Nate McMillan could be seen saying to Lance Stevenson, calm down. And I bet you when Paul George was talking after the game saying he needs to have, you know, better body language, you know, he needs to stay composed. That was probably the play that Paul George had running through his mind.

When Lance Stevenson got bullied three plays in a row, could not stop Kevin Love at all, and he let his frustration get the best of it and committed a careless foul on Kevin Love. It was just fascinating to see Cleveland just go to love over and over and over again. And towards the end of that third quarter to really create separation in the game. I covered Stevenson on a daily basis last year. And Paul George, I saw his stuff after the game. He's got to learn how to control himself and be in the moment. Lance in our locker room, he's looked upon as a leader.

His body language has to improve just for the team. We all know that Lance is an emotional guy, all of his heart and his competitiveness. That emotion comes out of it. He's got to channel it. that toward making effort plays on the court and doing whatever he needs for us to succeed. Good luck. No kidding. You know what I mean?

You can't ask a guy to change like that. No, that's who he is, man. That's just who he is. He wears everything that happens, good and bad. He wears it on his sleeve. You never have to wonder how Lance Stevenson is feeling, ever. You know, and so, and that, right, it is a great book. to a team when he's rocking.

But when it ain't going his way, and it can be draining on the others to look at him, right? And so Paul George was attempting. Especially if they consider a leader on the team. Oh, for sure. I mean, look, you could be a leader, but there's good leaders and there's bad leaders. And then there's Lance Stevenson leaders. Yeah.

It's not great. Lance should not be a leader. Okay. Let's just make that clear. If Lance Stevenson is one of your leaders, you've got a bit of a conundrum on your hands. Indiana's going to get swept, I think. You think they're going to get swept? Well, here's the thing.

This is what's interesting. Cleveland's the margin of victory has not been huge. And I don't think Cleveland has looked awesome, considering their opponent. I don't have a super high opinion of Indiana. But here's the thing. The teams that you thought. but, okay, they could give Cleveland a problem, have been so overwhelming.

Boston and Toronto being the key too, right? Washington, if we're just going, if we're going to overreact to the first games of the playoffs, Washington, to me, looks by far the best of the possible competition for Cavs. Don't you think? I don't know. I mean, if we're overreacting, yes, because they won the game. I just said I was overreacting.

I'm Kevin. I know, I know. I'm reiterating that for the listeners. If we're overreacting, definitely, you know, the Wizards, because they won the game and if it wasn't for the turnovers, I think they would have had an even more commanding win. But with that said, I mean, if we're not overreacting to the games, I still think it's going to be Boston or Toronto. I really do.

It's still going to be one of them. Or, you know, even you could go as far as saying Milwaukee, because they've given Cleveland trouble in the regular season before. and their length can present issues for Cleveland as well. If we want to go with all teams that just won their game, why not Milwaukee? All right. Well, they're going to play. Let's get to tonight's games.

We've got Milwaukee Toronto first. That's NBA TV game at 6 o'clock. Here's what I know is not going to change. There could be adjustments that can be made in this series. What is not going to change is Milwaukee is still going to be freakishly long. And that appears to give quite the problem to Toronto. and many, honestly, throughout the league. When Simmons and I did the podcast last week, one of the things we said was they are just such an awkward matchup.

They are so unlike so many things that happen in the NBA, the way they play, the way their star plays. They're not a team that takes a ton of threes. And then their matchups, they've just got these, you know, tall and long guys for the positions. that they play that seemingly can handle the ball and create their own shots in many cases. And they're just a very awkward team. And the Toronto thing about losing all these game ones over the years and then for them to get beat the way they did in that game one was, I don't know, man, that was really weird because they've had a big problem with these game ones and you would think, all right,

it ain't happening again. You know that's what they're thinking going into that, right? Not again. We're not dropping again in game number one. And it just felt like there's nothing they could do about that. The Bucks just took it to them. It's like Kyle Lari said it after the game. It's like deja vu all over again.

It really is. Four years in a row they've lost their first game of the playoffs. And that's incredible. So I think their problems are very much the same as they were before. And look, I know Demarda Rosen and Kyle Lowry are great players. There's no denying how great they are. But you can't overlook the fact that in the postseason, they have consistently not been good for over 30 games now.

You know, my point in my article on Monday was like, when do we start asking if their game just doesn't translate well to the playoffs in this modern NBA? When do we start asking that question? And I think that's legitimate because, you know, look, I have to read this stat from the article because it's kind of a long-witted stat. But look, there's been over 250 players since 1979

that have attempted at least 500 shots in the playoffs. So we're working with a pretty big sample here. Lowry and DeMarie and DeMarieuze and have two of the 16 worst effective field goal percentages of those 250 players. So we're talking about guys that take a lot of shots in the playoffs that have had a lot of opportunity to score the ball. They've been two of the 16 worst of those 250 players

in terms of scoring efficiency. That's just one metric, but you know, you can look at other numbers. They've been inefficient as well. Field goal percentage, true shooting percentage, whatever it is, whatever you want to look at, they have not been good. So when do we start asking if their game just doesn't translate? Everybody knows DeMarreauze and plays, you know, kind of a classic style, his mid-range style.

When do we start asking if that's actually going to be a translatable skill to the playoffs? I just wonder, when do we start? Is it now? Or is it after if they lose again in this series? Well, yeah, obviously, you've got to let it play out a little bit, right? because of course you know I mean as we know that is a big sample size um and I that's actually a shocking stat to me I mean 16 worst god bless both um I would not have suspected demar de rosen was third worst and when I wrote the article Laurie was 17th worst and now he's 16th well and one of the

things is they have been they have struggled and we've talked about this a lot to find the third guy and obviously they attained debaca to attempt to do that And they tried with Damari Carroll and it just didn't play out, right? I mean, I remember I talked to the Raptors announcers earlier this year when they were here and they said, you know, it's just so perimeter based. It's so dependent upon Kyle and Damar and never really been able to count on that third guy every night. It's just got to be somebody different, right? And back then it was like one night it's going to be Terrence Ross. And so then they went and they tried to get Abacca so that he could be that reliable third guy.

every night. But I will say this. One of the things, I'm just trying to come up with the reasons when you say, why doesn't it translate? One of the things you notice in the playoffs is the, you know, when you're only preparing for one team rather than preparing for somebody night in, night out, what you do is try to take away what they do best. And so everybody knows there is no mystery that if you can, if you decide, here's what we. we've got to do. We've got to slow down that back court. We can't let them combine for 70 points against us. We can't let them combine for 60 points against us. And if everybody else beats us, then so be it. But those two are not going to beat us. And that's what they do, right? That's what

they do. And you can do that in the playoffs. It's a lot easier than just a one-off game here and there. And so I would just say, you know, when teams have the opportunity to hone in, it becomes, that's what makes like what Kevin Love did and what Kauai Leonard did and what Paul George did for that matter so much more impressive because you know people are attempting to stop them, right? You know that Houston was attempting to slow down Westbrook the other night. He's the, he's the major guy that they got to worry about. And so that's what I wonder. And it becomes heightened awareness of, okay, here's what we're taking away from that team and a team can really execute it. Then that's what you get, right?

And you might be right. I don't know if it's as much about those individual players as it is their team concept and how much they rely upon those two players. Does that make sense? And that's what raises questions about Dwayne Casey and the system he has installed on that team. He's a great defensive coach, but you wonder about his offense, right? John Schueman from NBA.com had an amazing stat in one of his playoff preview articles that the Raptors had a 47 percent. They assisted on 47 percent of their made field goals this season. That's the lowest mark of the last 27 years.

27 years. We're talking about teams that played slow styles that didn't play modern motion offenses. They assisted on less makes than those teams. was in the 90s. It's crazy. And this is a team playing in the 2017 basketball season, and they assist on less than half their made field goals. And you wonder how much of that needs to change with Dwayne Casey. Do they need to make an adjustment there? They get a great head coach on their D-League team with Jerry Stackhouse, from what I hear, he's definitely should be a candidate for some team out there. He's had a great ear with them. Maybe he's the guy

who can really help enhance DeVrozen and Kyle Lari. I think, I mean, look, I don't want to like, you know, reiterate everything we talked about on the podcast last month. But if there's one change that they first need to make before, you know, they go to the nuclear option, press like the reset button, they need, I think they need to consider changing the head coach just to see if a new revised, altered system can enhance DeRosen as a player and enhance Lowry as a player. And maybe that translates to the playoffs. Maybe nothing changes. It's all, that's always possible. Maybe it's as a result of the players.

That's their style. And I just want to see if that changes. And I think Casey's a great defensive coach, but I don't know if his system offensively has highlighted their strengths as much as that can. I will be shocked if Toronto just flips a switch and then wipes out the bucks. It feels like that's going to be a very long, challenging series for them regardless. And I know it's easy to say now that the bucks are up one zip, but I don't think that that was just a one-off.

I don't think that that was a fluke. I think the bucks are going to be a big problem for him. I don't know about tonight because with all of these teams, the road teams, once they catch a road win, psychologically, there is a sense of accomplishment that comes with that, right? We came here to get one and we got the one. And then the other team knows we can't go down O2 and it's total backs against the wall. And so the idea that these home teams, whether it's Toronto, Boston or the Clippers, all take care of business tonight. In fact, I'd be surprised if all of them didn't take care of business. That being said, I think the Bucks are going to be a big problem for them.

If there's a game seven in that series, it would not shock me one bit. Me neither, Chris. And I think Jonathan Charks wrote an article in the ringer today about how the Bucks went small without going small. And that's the inherent problem for opponents with the Bucks, is that they are big, but they can also play versatile with guys like Thonmaker, Yonnasentine Kumpo as their front court. Those guys are not necessarily big, as in like bulky. They're not traditional big men, but they have big man height and big man length. And they also have guard quickness, the ability to switch screens and defend multiple positions. And then they're back court, guys like Tony Sell, Malcolm Brogden, Chris Middleton.

Those guys can play versatile too. Guys like Matthew Delvedova, everybody knows that he's a really good defender, great guard defender. They have the ability to shut you down in different ways on the defensive end of the floor. They held Toronto to 83 points. And we talked about how poor the Raptors were. The Bucks were great. I mean, it's not like the Raptors just had a bad game.

The Bucks were really, really good. And they looked like a team that I think could beat Toronto. I mean, you said they could go seven. That's possible. I could also see the Bucks win in the series in six, just from what we saw in game one and the problems that they presented. It's all going to come down to the adjustments, the counter adjustments that Toronto makes entering game two

and then throughout the series. Well, listen, if I took somebody that had never watched basketball in their life, I used to always say this about LeBron, right? If you just took somebody that had never watched basketball in their life and sat him in front of a TV and tried to explain to them what was going on, they would immediately be able to identify that he's the best guy out there, right? It's kind of like when I knew nothing about soccer and I'd tune in and I'd watch, you know, Argentina and he'd be like, you immediately see that Lionel Messi is the best guy out there, right? Like, I don't have to know anything about soccer.

You could just tell it. Well, I'll tell you this. If you watch that Bucks Toronto game, everybody in the first. free world would say the best guy on that court is Janice. It's not even close. You're right. You're right, Chris. That reminds me of an experience I had in New Orleans. They had basketball without borders, which is where they bring all the best, best high school basketball players in the country there. And I came in not really knowing any of the players. And then you see this kid, six foot seven, kind of, you know, strong body, long arms. You're like, I'm going to keep my eye on this

kid. And then you see him play. And you're going to. And you see him play. And you're You look down at your sheet and you're like, okay, R.J. Barrett, okay. Yeah, then you Google him on your phone. You're like, oh, okay, yeah, he's the number one player in the 2019 high school class. He's easy to spot. Like, you don't need to know who the guys are. You don't need to know anything about the sport for that matter to know that he's the best guy. And I had the same experience here the other week or two months ago, rather now, time goes by quick. Yeah, and it feels like Janus is that guy. All right, let's get to Chicago, Boston. That's going to be at 7 o'clock on TNT. Listen, he had these extenuating circumstances where Isaiah Thomas had to go through extreme tragedy right before the game. And he ended up playing and he played really well.

I got to tell you, Kevin, I was like super impressed with the Bulls. I really was. And I know that a lot of came out of it was like what's wrong with the Celtics. But I thought the Bulls looked good in that first game. and obviously Butler just took over in that second half. But I thought they looked pretty confident. I looked like I thought, you know, they got a lot of good shots. Thought they moved the ball around better than, you know, I would have suspected.

I don't know. I just, I don't know if that was just a one-off or I don't know. What do I make of what took place? And were you as impressed with what the Bulls did or did you look at that as more what the Celtics did wrong? You know, so going into the series, Chris, there's two primary thoughts I had with that. So first of all, one of them is that the Bulls have three guys that can theoretically go off. They have Jimmy Butler, who obviously is a superstar. Everybody knows how amazing he is.

Dwayne Wade could still have those flashback nights where, you know, he goes off and has amazing games, just like he did last year in the playoffs. And Rondo, I mean, look, he's not the player he once was, but he can still have dynamic performances. They have three guys that can have big, big, big, big, big scoring nights or big, big, playmaking nights. Whereas the Celtics, their team is really Isaiah Thomas, and he's the guy that they have to lean on for basically all of their half-court offense. All of their playmaking comes from Isaiah. They have other guys who can create. Marcus Smart is a better pick and roll playmaker than anybody gives him credit for. He's really good in that role. But besides that, look, Al Horford,

great player, but you can't lean on him to really be your playmaking presence. Isaiah Thomas is the guy on that team. And so the Bulls have more guys who can do that. And the second part, This is what really happened in that game one, was that the Bulls are just a great offensive rebounding the team. And the Celtics are a horrific defensive rebounding team. And they just completely pummeled them on the boards. Kelly Olenick had no chance against Robin Lopez. Al Horford is not a good defensive rebounders and has never been one. Look, that's going to be the problem for the Celtics is.

How do you fix something that can only be a Band-Aid fix against this team? Look, you need to box out, you need to gang rebound. You cannot let Robin Lopez just pressure the rim so easily like he was the other night. There's this one swim move he had on Kelly Alenic where it looked like Dwight Freeney, not to make an NFL reference, but it looked like Dwight Freeney spinning around a left tackle. Like Kelly Alenic had no chance. They need to just not allow the Bulls to get these second chance opportunities. Then they have a chance because I think they still have enough weapons to really have.

They still have the better overall team. But you can't allow the Bulls to get all these chances. That comes down to you more than anything. And we talk about, right, it's one thing if Butler and Wade and the guy, or Rondo, or whoever, guys that you would count on could feasibly have big games. But it's always those periphery guys that you're not necessarily counting on because you are paying so much attention to the others that can really kill you. And Bobby Portis was fantastic in that guy. I mean, he was great.

Yeah. He was great. Really? No Bobby. And by the way, Mark is smarter you mentioned. How many why? How many threes? Like corner threes did he take?

Like he's going for, I don't know, I guess Nick Young would be the title holder, but the whole hold the follow through brick, right? You know, like, yeah, you hold the follow through like, oh, that's money, right? Instead of just like bounce off the back of the rim. Marcus Smart, he had at least three of those, right? Where it was like, okay, this is a bucket. and he gets the shot. And he's obviously not scared to take any shot,

but he just, he couldn't get one to drop. And they got to have, they got to have smart giving them, they got to have smart giving them something, you know? I mean, well, Marcus, well, okay, before I touch on Marcus, let me just say this about Bobby Portis. He gets a lot of hate, like on Twitter.

Like, I know both fans are frustrated with him, but look, he's only in his second year, and he's only 22 years old, and he's had moments. He's had moments in both his rookie season and now in his sophomore season and now in game one of the playoffs, where he looks like a guy who's going to be in the league for 10 to 12 to maybe even 15 years. And I think he will be.

I loved Bobby Portis in the draft. I just think guys like him who play hard, who can stretch the floor, who I think he wants to be a really good player. And he improves so much from his freshman to sophomore season in college that I just think it's going to come in time. We just need to be patient with Bobby Portis and understand that these flashes like we saw on Sunday are just glimpses of the future with him. And then as for Marcus Smart, look, I mean, he's been a 30% 29, 30% three-point shooter ever since high school. And that's kind of who he is as a player in that department. But he is so good everywhere else, man. I remember last year,

I wrote an article about Marcus Smart. Like when he's getting a lot of heat in the Boston media about, oh, Marcus can't shoot, Marcus flops too much. It's like, yeah, you can't focus on just the two negatives of him because he is such an incredible defender. His ability to defend bigger guys, to defend every, I mean, look, he can't defend every type of player, but he can defend every position on the floor if that makes any sense. His ability to defend in that, a great remounted for a guard, a really good pick and roll playmaker. He's just not a great shooter, but yet he was three for seven in game one. It's not like he had a bad night. The question with him is finding the consistency on that end of the floor. And I, look, that's the last hurdle for Marcus

smart. If he can develop into a 38% three-point shooter instead of a 30% guy, I'm not saying he's an all-star, but he's a whole lot closer to that level than people think because he's so damn good everywhere else besides shooting. I'd be surprised if Stevens doesn't

have something up his sleeve and that Boston doesn't bounce back tonight. Boston's going to win tonight. I'd be very shocked if they didn't. I think so, too. I would be really surprised if they don't come out guns blazing tonight. Yeah, Utah and the Clippers.

I feel so terrible for jazz fans. I really do. The Gobert thing feels like a death blow to me. I mean, he is so amazing. He felt like it when it happened. He is so amazing, though. And I know, but like now it's going to settle in, right? And you got to play it.

And I get it, right? And you can't trust the Clippers to do anything right. But that being said, it just feels like that's going to be. That's going to be a bridge too far, man, losing him. Maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Quinn Snyder's going to be able to concoct something, but it just feels like, you know, once you can game plan for, okay, they don't have this guy in the lineup anymore,

he just affects things so much. I would love to see them still be super duper competitive and be able to just go ahead and be good without him. But I hate seeing guys get injured. And he seems like an extremely important piece to them. It just sucks. It happened on the first possession of the game. I know.

The first possession that happened. Like you said, Chris, it felt like it was over at that point. The fact that they pulled out the game was remarkable. I thought, I think it was really embodied what they were the entire season. We've talked about this before. Maybe, I don't know how many podcasts I've mentioned how much I like Quinn Snyder as a coach. And I think, I think, you know, like with Brad Stevens in the Eastern Conference, he's kind of the Stevens of the West in the sense that he gets the most out of his guys.

No matter what happens to that team, no matter who's out, he has the ability to plug guys in and put that guy in the best position to succeed. They did that. They did that on Saturday night. And I think Quinn Snyder, in many ways, the last play of the game, when he didn't call a timeout with their semi-transitioned early offense opportunity, with Joe Johnson, when he hit the game-winning shot over Jamal Crawford. The decision not to call a timeout there

was an incredible call. And even if Joe Johnson clanked that ball off the side of the backboard, I still think it would have been the right decision because look, he had a poor defender and Jamal Crawford on him. Clippers had switches all over the floor. They were not in position defensively

like they would have been had a timeout been called. And you think back earlier on Saturday night when Nate McMillan called a timeout when Paul George rebounded the ball, and was about to go and transition, he called the timeout, and then the shot they ended up getting was C.J. Miles poll up, too. I think Nate McMillan made the wrong call. The second it happened, I felt that way, I know Jeff Van Gundy said it on the broadcast as well, whereas in this game, totally the right call to let him go. Because, look, it wasn't a pure transition opportunity,

but it kind of wasn't the sense that the clippers weren't set. And if you call the timeout in that play, I guarantee you, Doc Rivers is pulling Jamal Crawford out of the game, and he's not going to have the opportunity to just bully his way to the rim like he did. It was a great call like Quinn Snyder and that game showed how good he is as a coach, I think. I hope I'm, I hope I'm wrong about that because there's nothing more. I'd love for Utah to be able to pull it off. I hope I'm wrong, allow me to say, on the Gobert stuff, but the defensive metrics on him and the impact that he has had on that team, especially in the style of game that they like to play, has been so immense. And sometimes when I,

guy gets injured, especially like he did so early in that game, it can galvanize a team, right, for one night. We're going to come together, F this, right, do it for Rudy, this kind of stuff. And then it kind of set after a couple days after, it's like, okay, now we got to live without him, right? He ain't coming back. So I hope I'm wrong about that. But, I mean, listen, that's his part of his candidacy for defensive player of the year

is that you've, I mean, the numbers don't lie. His impact is just enormous on that team and is so good at even stuff that numbers can't pick up, which is you just decide not to drive when you like peek up and you see this monster standing back there, right? Like there is no, how many times does he force you into a worse shot or just prevent you from even getting close to the rim simply because you just look up and you're like, grief. I ain't driving into that. But I hope I'm wrong. The Interior defender in basketball. There's no doubt about it.

And I hope I'm wrong about that. But I would be surprised if again, I don't know if I could trust Toronto. And the Milwaukee thing is such a damn wild card. But I'd be surprised if the home teams don't even it up tonight. Like I said earlier, there's something psychologically about

the road team feeling like they have accomplished what they went there to accomplish. the home team saying this is 100% must win. We can't go down. We can't lose our first two home playoff games. Let's touch on the other series. So we covered last night's game. We'll cover the games that are going on tonight. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll talk about what games are going to resume or what series are going to resume on Wednesday after these words. Today's ringer NBA show brought to you by Seat Geek. The NBA playoffs are here and Seat Geek is the smartest, easiest way to get tickets to your favorite team's games.

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And I obviously am viewing this a little through the prism of if you would eventually have to play Cleveland. I mean, we saw that game towards the end of the year where Gortat just totally pushed around Tristan Thompson, and obviously he was pushing around. everybody in their game on Saturday. Polish hammer. We talk about the whole who's the best guy on the court.

And so we saw Janus and he looked like the best guy on the court. And Jimmy Butler certainly in the second half of that Bulls game looked like they had the best guy on the court. There was no doubt about it. John Wall was unbelievable over the weekend and clearly was the best guy on the court. I don't know, man. I kind of got high on the Wizards after watching them and what they did against the Hawks. What about you? John Wallis was taking it to the next level, man.

It feels like every year, despite all the injuries he's had over the career, especially double knee surgery last year, just keeps on getting better. This year, look, you can't defend him like he used to. You can't force him into jumpers. This was something I touched on in my article on Monday that, you know, so when he was spotting up, when he didn't have the ball in his hands, when he was spotting up, the hawks often stop short on their closeouts, giving him space to shoot the three. And you can't do that anymore.

He'll beat you. You have to really crowd him on the line now. And if you do that, the problem is that he's so friggin fast and he's so explosive that he gets to the lane with ease. And he can draw files or he can finish through contact. He can finish athletically. He really is one of the best point guards in the league, man. I think he should probably be on the third team all NBA. I know that's kind of just an arbitrary thing, but he's up there, man.

He's one of the best guards in the league. And never mind the fact he had 14 assists, only three turnovers. Yeah, he was great. And it just doesn't feel like Atlanta's got enough. Yeah, I agree. I don't think they have enough ammo to beat them. But at the same time, they've a solid team. I think they're going to win a couple of games in this series at least.

Maybe one or two, two games. I think maybe it goes six. Oh, sure. You're thinking not that far. No, no, no, no. I don't think it's going to be a, I don't think they're just going to bash them. No. I mean, none of these, I don't think that there is, they're not that much better than them,

but they certainly, the Hawks, they're not going to win that series. They're not winning the series, but could they win a couple of games and make it a little bit interesting? You know, if you get a game six in Atlanta, that makes it obviously extremely interesting, right? They need more out of Tim Hardaway, Jr. I mean, because you're not going to get 25 every night out of Schrooter. Hardaway's been really good for them the past couple months, and they can't get two for 11 for seven points out of him. He needs to really go off.

Yeah, I don't know about counting on Tim Hardaway, Jr. In a big playoff series. It's like counting on Lance Stevenson to be your leader. All right, Thunder Rockets. I mean, Hardin was just on a, he was on another planet in that game. And allow me say this. This is all the thought. I was thinking of this on the game on watching it on Saturday night.

Watching them and watching Beverly, who was totally unbelievable in that game. Of course, he got flattened by Stephen Adams, but he was knocking down threes. He was pumping up the crowd. Do you know what dawned on me? So much has been talked about with what happened with the Rockets last year. and that they had gone to the West Finals the year before, and last year was an unmitigated disaster, a team that appeared to not like each other at all.

And obviously this year, Hardin's turned into a possible MVP. Most people are going to give Dan Tony their coach of the year vote, and so many things are thought of through this idea of their drastic improvement from last year. Now, let me wrap that back around to Beverly. At the beginning of the year, I interviewed Darrell Morey on this show. And one of the things he was very, when we talked about what happened to Houston, many times he went back to the Thai Lawson thing. You know, it was just a mistake, right?

Brought in Ty Lawson, and it was a mistake. And it messed up everything. And one of the things that he didn't really go into detail on, but then later in the year when I interviewed Corey Brewer, he did, which I never really thought of. Corey brought up about it not working last year because he was on both of those teams, the team that went to the West finals, and then going into the next year. And it's one thing to just lay everything at the feet of Ty Lawson. One of the instances that, or one of the things that Brewer said that I thought was interesting was it had a drastic effect on the team, not just because it's a bad fit with him and Hardin and both need the ball and whatever else, but because they took Beverly out of the lineup. and Beverly is so important to that locker room and he was the heart and soul of that team

and that they went out and found a replacement for him. And I couldn't help but think about that when I'm watching that game. And you see he is there, while Hardin is easily the most talented player, he is their heart, man. He is the heart of that team. And it's fascinating to go back and think that, you know, that had such a dramatic. dramatic effect in the negative way on that team last year when they chose to replace him, right? They chose to replace him.

And it obviously was terrible. But, man, Kevin, he was, he was all over Russ. And he would just, it just felt like all this energy was just coming from him in that game. Didn't you think? He was definitely like the center of the solar system for the team, Sunday night, whatever night at the game was. He was outstanding, man. I think Beverly is a great example of a player where if you're a guard and you're a hard-nosed

defender, if you can become a good shooter like Patrick Beverly, there's your foundation for a long NBA career. Beverly's going to be in the league for a long time. And it's because he's such an incredible defender and because he's become a great three-point shooter. And then you can build everything else from there, playmaking responsibility, whatever else it is. He's a great player and he's a perfect fit in that system, especially next to James Hardin. That's a perfect back court pairing.

And the one thing you mentioned, you know, him locking down Russell Westbrook, of course, you know, he was, he picked pocketed in him a couple times. But I thought the Rockets game plan was outstanding. They gave Robertson the Tony Allen treatment, just leaving him completely open on the three-point line. And Robertson hit four threes. He was four for six from three. But I would guarantee that the Rockets coaching staff isn't going to lose sleep over that. Because they should keep leaving him open because he's a liability on liability spotting up from three. If you look at his numbers from the past four years, according to Sport View,

he's shot, I think, below 30% all four seasons this year. He was like at 25% on spot-up threes, and a lot of those are open. His teams leave him open. And the effect of that is that where's the driving lanes for Russell Westbrook? He was forced to drive in a clogged lane. He was making poor passes. He was in his typical Leroy Jenkins mode. Nine turnovers, sloppy, bad passes, his handle was loose, got pickpocket by

Beverly poor shot selection, Harden intercepted two passes where it looked like something was, you know, popped up on game film, which just looked like it was premeditated where he knew it was coming, this weird jump pass that Westbrook does when Robertson cuts baseline. I just thought overall, they put Westbrook in the worst position possible, and he wasn't able to really do much of anything that night. And I think going into game two, the Thunder are going to need to find a way to effectively play with Robertson on the floor, because the rockets aren't going to change. They're not going to. to suddenly start defending Robertson from three. They're going to clog the lane and force Westbrook into making plays from the perimeter, more so than getting to the bucket and drawing files like he can, you know, at will. They need to make some type of adjustment. And I'm not exactly sure what it can be, though, based on their personnel. I can't wait to see what ends up happening with that because Donovan, there's no doubt about it.

Last year, he helped his perception quite a bit by making really good adjustments in the playoffs. He did. He was very good in the playoffs last year was Billy Donovan. And so now's where it's time. But when you say it's hard to make adjustments given their personnel, that's very shocking to me, Kevin. All I've heard from everybody over the course of the last month is how good Russ's supporting cast is. He's got, look, he's got solid players. I think they have good defensive players. I think Robertson's one of the best players. One of their best players is Enis Cantor and his coach is on the bench saying, we can't play it. I mean, stop it already.

Hey, man. Hey, basketball is a two-way game, and they do have good defensive players. And Victor Old Guadieple was horrible. One for 12, 0 for 6 from 3. Look, I mean, I just think the inherent issue is, like, you know, you know with the Grizzlies, in the past. There have been teams. I think it was the Spurs, if I remember correctly, was the first team who really just didn't cover him on offense. Golden State.

And that's what the Rockets did. How do you counter that? It's hard. It's really hard. he's your best defensive player and he has insane value for that team. But if they're not covering you on one of the floor, you're not going to get four for six from three every night from Robertson. You're not.

He could just as easily go 0 for six in game two. If he gets the same looks, the same wide open shots. I think that's a problem for Oklahoma City because the rocket's going to score a ton of points no matter what. Yeah, the only reason I'm not counting them out completely is because last year they got smashed and it just looked like, okay, they can't compete, right? And so whether you lose by one or you lose by 30, the loss is the loss, right? But I would, I'd be surprised if Oklahoma City, if there's not a couple huge rust games in there and Oklahoma City gets it to six games. I would be surprised if they got more.

I just think it goes back to what we talked about last week, though, Chris. I think the fact that Westbrook is the center of the offense and that everything comes from him, that's a problem. Like, you know, we talked about this multiple times this year. I read about it before the season. Bill Simmons touched on it again, again, when talking about the MVP race. Westbrook, you know, you look historically at guys that have that high usage. They don't go far in the playoffs. I forget the amount of guys, 17 guys, 18 guys.

I forget the number. But Alan Iverson is the only one who went as far as the finals. And everybody else usually flames out in the first or second round because you can't win with that style. And that's the problem with Oklahoma City. It's going to happen to them every single year unless they add another superstar and revise their system. It all can't come from Russ or it's not going to lead to success in the playoffs. They need to change their offense and can you do that now in the middle of the series when you've been playing that way the entire year? I don't think you can.

I think that's too sudden of a change and I think it's a change that they're going to need to look back during the summer and reevaluate and say, okay, we need to just really look at Russ and say, man, you've got to take a little bit less responsibility. and you can get different you can look i got to revise what i said he can get the same amount of opportunity it's just the type of usage needs to change you need to get him the ball when he's off ball more often he needs to be in that robberson role where he's off ball and he's the guy getting spot up threes and cutting to the room for lob dunks and layups that you need more of that from westbrook where other guys can have dynamic playmaking opportunities it can't and put him put and put christian on the ball right i mean that's what they have to do he he cannot be off the ball that's for damn sure

Yeah, and I'll say this. One of the other things is they got to just decide, you know, when you see some teams decide to do this, that they're just going to try to blow up every screen, that they are just going to decide we're not switching. I swear to God, every time they switched, every time they switched, Hardin got a frigging layup. It was the damnedest thing. Every time. He just literally like unimpeded, just drove to the basket and made a layup. So you just got to decide we ain't doing that anymore. We're just sticking with him.

We're going to try to blow up those screens because that was just instant death. Every time somebody big switched on to him, it was over. It was like, all right. Now, and poor Canter. Then if you don't switch, you've got Clint Capella running down the lane with James Hardin-Prodden for a lob dunks. It's so hard. I know. He forces you into terrible decisions, but poor Cantor almost tore both his ACLs,

on a garden on one point. Oh yeah, when he got put in the turnstile when Hardin spun him. Oh, God. That was just unbelievable. That was very, very troubling. All right. Last series that is going to resume on Wednesday. Warriors, Blazers, warriors,

obviously look devastating. Speaking of Harden Souls, when you have that Dremont, the scene from game one is all summed up with Dremond and the massive block at the rim and then him pumping his fist in the air. And I'll tell you this. If you told me you're going to get not totally unlike the Raptors, where they're so reliant on back court and back court scoring, while the Raptors didn't exactly have some kind of potent offense from their guys,

and you chronicled how this has been a big problem for many years, they got 75 points out of McCollum and Lillard, right? Wasn't it? 75, I think, was the total? It was a lot. It might have been more than that because McCollum was the leading scorer of the game ones, if I'm not mistaken, right? It was 75, you're right.

34 for Lillard, 41 for McCollum. I mean, damn, what do you want, right? You got 75 out of those guys. I mean, that's about as, if you were, if you told me you're going to get 75 out of those two guys, I feel pretty good about, you know, chances of being competitive. And yet you look up at the end and they still get beat by double digits.

Unless it's against a team that has Kevin Durant, Stefan Curry, Clay Thompson. Well, and here's the thing, right? That's the issue with that team. Well, the other thing is your, you know, the other guys are Harkless, Evan Turner. I mean, they got nine points off of their bench. I mean, Aminu, terrible.

I mean, O for five, no points. Alan Crabb, one for five, three points. I mean, they got to get something out of those guys. I don't know if you're going to get it consistently. You might get it here and there, but there's guys in the NBA that you can lean on every night that are going to get you buckets. And they're not always superstars. They're good players that have roles and they're effective every night.

But then there's guys where sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. And almost every team has those guys because you can't have all the best players on your team, unless you're the Warriors. but look, it's like, put it this way, they needed Nurkich because their defense was so poor with the personnel that they had. You look at Noah Vonle, the game he played,

he is a complete non-threat in the pick and roll. And so what happens with that? Everything needs to come from the guards, and that's why they scored 70 points, 75 points from Louis and McCollum, because they can't get it anywhere else. You can't get from Vonlai on the role like you can from Nurkish.

You can't get it from any other role players consistently either. No, and it's obviously a lot of what we talked about earlier where it is there is some of it is the individual and what they bring to the table and how good they are and how well the team functions with them the other factor of a guy getting injured is how how tragic is the drop off to the next guy and so just to wrap back around to the first series we covered the drop off from tony allen is to friggin wane selden who wasn't in the NBA and the drop off from nurkich is to know of onlay who you wouldn't

one out there at all, much less playing 21 minutes or 23 minutes. It just can't be. It's one thing to lose Nerkich. It's another that you got nothing to replace him, not even close. And the same thing goes, obviously, when the Grizzlies lost Tony Allen. And we will see. What do you think they do? Do you think he just goes small in Utah with the Gobert loss?

Or do you think he just tries to go big with? I'm kind of interested to see how Quinn Snyder plays that out. everything you're saying about like the next guy up Chris reminds me of just I guess to touch back right back around to where we were at the start of Mike Singletary former coach of the San Francisco 49ers he said cannot play with him cannot win with them cannot coach with them

can't do it you can't do it with Wayne Selden you can't do it with Noah Vonley there are placement players aren't always going to be able to do half or even 25% of what the starters can do and that loss can be devastating and going back to And going back to Utah, he doesn't really have a choice.

I mean, he'll either play, he's obviously going to be favors. You know, he's going to have to roll. He's got favors. He's got Borseau and, I mean, Trey Wiles. I mean, the only other center, the only other guy on the roster is Jeff Withy, so you ain't rocking with that. So they're just going to, they're just going to have to play small. I'm a Jeff Withy fan. Me and Ryan B from Celtics Hub.com are leaders of the Jeff Withy fan club.

Not a great player Solid can give you 10-15 minutes I think that's what he can do But besides that they need to play smaller They need to I think that's kind of what they were forced to do In game one and we'll see how the Clippers react in game two They need to play smaller

And then supplement with Ian for about 10 to 15 max And that's about it It's been a fun It's been fun so far watching these series And we've got three games tonight We've got a couple more Three more on Wednesday night Do you know what you're writing about

Do you know what you're doing next? I'm not sure what I'm writing about next, but today I had an article just about the Amazing Nights Kauai Leonard and Kevin Love has. That's on the rear. Yeah, I won't be reading that. Hey, just read the Kevin Love portion, man. Read the Kevin Love part.

Just scroll down past Kauai Leonard. Just like block the screen when you're scrolling down past Kauai. I don't want to relive that one again. I don't want to read about how awesome he was. Just scroll down until you see shape. Shay's tweet is embedded when he says, Kevin Love has 27 points on seven shots, WTF, LOL. Just scroll down until you see that, and you're good.

You're safe. All right, perfect. Thanks, Kevin. Hey, we'll catch up next week. Thanks, brother. Hey, man, enjoy the playoffs, Chris. I'm going to try. Thanks for listening to another ringer NBA show.

If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you on Thursday. Thanks to Cabbage for sponsoring today's episode. Cabbage created a simple way for businesses to get flexible access up to $100,000. Visit cabbage.com slash ringer and you'll get a $100 visa gift card when you qualify.

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