The Ringer NBA Show - Tatum Sends Philly Into an Uncertain Future. Plus, Monty Williams Fired, Ja Morant Suspended (Again), and More. | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos start the pod by reacting to the Celtics’ dominant Game 7 victory over the 76ers (03:30). They discuss Jayson Tatum’s historic 51-point performance, the lackluster outings from James Harden and Joel Embiid, and shake-ups that may be looming in Philly. Then, they talk about Ja Morant’s suspension of team activities from the Grizzlies after another IG Live in which he flashed a gun (32:56). After, they go over the firing of Monty Williams in Phoenix and a big offseason of questions for the Warriors (40:48). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Support: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Ariel Hawani, and I wanted to let you know that each and every week, I'm part of a great program called The Ringer MMA Show. I hosted alongside two absolutely brilliant minds. Their names, Chuck Mindenhall and Pizzie Carroll, and every Thursday, a new episode drops where we preview the weekend in mixed martial arts and react to all the biggest news. Plus, after every UFC pay-per-view, we give you a post-fight show. So this is what you have to do. Just follow the Ringer M-M-M-A show on your Spotify app.

So you don't miss an episode. We'll talk to you then. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier and joining me a couple of guys who leaked some bogus officiating stats just before game seven. Rob Mahoney, Big Was, what's up, boys? Look, the proof is in the tape. I don't think we even need to justify it here.

I think if you look at the evidence, you'll come around to our way of thinking, Justin. What loser behavior is what I have to say? Like, as the game didn't even need to play after that, I think it was over. That was what did it? I missed this officiating thing. What happened? Can you bring me up the speed? This podcast is just going to be just aggregating Twitter for you guys.

Basically, Woge had a report, I think about two hours before today's game seven between the Celtics and the Sixers, basically stating that there were some missed calls in game six that the Sixers were upset about. Coincidentally, Doc Rivers then did his pregame press conference shortly after and then addressed that report. So one might believe that maybe this was put into the ether in order for the refs to be aware of some of these miscalls in game seven. I would say, look, if you're going to play that game, if you're going to do a little

leak about the officiating, if you want to get that out there, I don't know that two hours is enough. You got to put it in their heads the night before, make them sleep on it, make them really, really agonized with what they've done. Because clearly, you know,

the officiating did not swing Philly's way, as intended. Although I don't know that they did a lot of help, the Sixers. They didn't really do themselves a lot of help in trying to draw those calls in the first place in Game 7. Yeah, I think that one bricked

like a Joe L&B to air ball. It's tough. It's tough for the Sixers. Watching them implode today in exactly the way that anybody who's been watching this team for years would have predicted was so satisfying. Joe L. Embeded was horrific.

He was below his MVP standard. This is about as embarrassing as dirt going out in the first round against we believe. He should pack it up, mail it to Yolkich crib, immediately because one guy has been kicking everybody's ass in the playoffs. and the other guy is Joelle freaking Embedde. This was horrific.

Three air balls today, guys. Five of 18. Boston going to the lane with impunity. Just horrible. So Embed, 5 for 18. Hardin 3, 4, 11. I'm surprised, like, I know we could ding Joel, and I'm sure we'll get to that.

But I thought Hardin was the more egregious performance in this one. Celtics 1, 12, 6, or 11. 88, by the way. I mean, at a certain point, and I told Wazz this before he got on here, Rob, like Embed was being guarded by three, sometimes four guys on pretty much every possession

if he wasn't already being stonewalled by Al Horford. But don't we expect some of this of James Hardin in this moment? And I think what we are hoping for, at least what I was hoping for, you know, unlike you, Waz, I take no joy in the Sixers' failings. I would have loved to see,

I would have loved to see Embed climb this particular mountain and have a statement moment for his playoff career. And it not only did it not turn out to be that, look, I think the Celtics did smart things defensively as you're alluding to, Justin, to throw and beat off his game.

I think Horford, in particular, guards and bead, as well as any human being on the planet. I didn't see a single thing that they threw his way that he shouldn't have been able to overcome. And I know he's hurt, but this was as big a moment

as Joella's had in his playoff career. And I think he absolutely blew it. Just completely did not look like himself whatsoever on either end of the court. And in particular, let's even take away the offense. Defensively, Jason Tatum was going right at him in the

first half, driving to the rim, challenging him on his own turf, beating him there. And then in the second half, bring him out to the perimeter where the Sixers were so toast, they had to start switching and beat out on Tatum. And my God, how many threes did Tatum hit with Embed right in his face in this game?

just got absolutely wrecked to the point that there's no defending Joel's performance. I think with Hardin, at least we can say the long memory of history will tell you this is kind of who James Harden is in some of these games.

I think a lot of people expected better of Joel. So because the bar is so absolutely low for James Harden, not only in general, and in particular this season, but just in the playoffs, in a big game moment,

that is why we're dinging Joel more because we expect James Harden to be absolutely atrocious, which he was in this game. Justin, Justin, this is the show that coined the Redeemer, okay? He had the good game in game one. And I was like, don't worry, James Hardin will redeem my take. That he's a godawful playoff performer. And he always does this.

He just never is there in big moments for his team. I mean, I know we got to get to Boston at some point, but you got to give it up to Jason Tatum. One of his worst games ever, okay, he follows it up by breaking a freaking game seven record, okay? We're not asking James Harden to come out and drop 50. We're not saying that. But my goodness, man, be an all-star performer.

Be a max contract guy. Be better than freaking Tyrese Maxie. It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's unfauched. that Philly could just flame out this way and get 30 piece in a deciding game, man. I mean, forget Maxie, like be better than Malcolm Brogden, right? Like, be better than the eighth best Celtic in this game. I think for as great as Tatum was, they got some like across-the-board contributions on the Boston side. They were impactful.

And on Philly's side, obviously we start with the stars first and foremost, but you just get like kind of a no-show game for DeAnthony Melton in a lot of ways. Like some of these guys who have been really important for them in the play. playoffs really didn't quite have it. PJ Tucker's been a really important player. He hit some shots. I think he did kind of enough at the start of this game to challenge at least the way that Boston was trying to defend him. But if you're going to get this level of performance from Embed and this level of performance from Hardin, and basically no one else on the roster steps up, guess what? You lose by almost 30 points.

And worst of all, worst of all, Rob and Justin can't blame this on a white man like you did the MVP. Jesus Christ. I'm going to sidestep that one like a Jason Tatum attack on NB to the rim. But Rob, I mean, I see your point here. And Hardin was, to his credit, making the right plays early on in that first quarter, hitting PJ Tucker. Wide the fuck open. He had an ocean of space in front of him.

And to Tucker's credit, he hit those shots. I joked on Twitter. This was starting to look like a Grant Williams game seven performance from last year for PJ Tucker. Unfortunately, Hardin not. even looking at the rim most of the time, just ultimately made this just completely non-starter for Philly. I mean, the one memory I have of him attacking the rim is when he flailed so dramatically that he nailed Jaylin Brown in the face in order to get a flagrant. And just, I mean, it's on one hand, it is easy just to blame this on Hardin because he has been the punching back for this

team for an entire season and before that even, even last year's postseason. But a lot of it just started from there, you could just see the Celtics just assuming that Hardin wasn't going to get to the rim or do much else, and thus it just made them so much easier to guard. Yeah, that's where even the stuff you're alluding to at the beginning of the game, where he's technically making

the right play, passing to PJ Tucker. James Hardin's the kind of player who in those moments makes you wonder, is this a guy who was playing chess and thinking, oh, I have to set up PJ Tucker so we can play the Celtics out of this defensive alignment? Or is it a guy who just doesn't want to or

can't believe that he can actually get to the rim against this team. And both things can kind of be true, right? I think he, in some cases, is looking to play a more three-dimensional game in terms of his playmaking, but also just doesn't really trust where he is as a shooter at this point or a score at this point in ways that really drag the Sixers down. And to be fair to him, I think you could say the same of him be. Like, I know that he was facing a lot of pressure, but show me a couple of possessions in the second half where he even got into the paint, got into the post, got anywhere near the vicinity

of the basket. Some of that is a bigger structural playmaking problem with what was happening with Philly at that point in time. But look, like if you're the MVP, you have to be able to pull this stuff off. You have to be able to pull out these kinds of moments and these kinds of performances, or at the bare minimum, not be a reason your team lost. Yeah, I thought honestly in the first half, the Celtics were doing them a favor by playing just a conventional pick and roll coverage where you just expect Marcus Smart to sort of recover off of the screen. And then they were sending help at James Harden late. And the guy's one of the best passes we've ever seen.

You can say what you want about James Harden. This is a guy who reads the floor as well as anybody. And then in the second half, they switched it up and say, fuck that. We're just going to switch this. And when you do give it to Joel, we're going to send help on him, the guy who's the turnover machine, the guy who historically has had trouble sort of passing out of double teams and finding the right guy. And they did that.

And, you know, predictably, they crushed him with that. And I mean, I don't know what else to say about Philly, man. I thought Tobias Harris tried his heart out. He's being faced with guarding two of the best wings in the NBA, every single possession, and then trying to goose his office. They don't run anything for him. He's just sort of trying to find his offense within the flow of the game. Max, he's a really young guy, still on a rookie deal.

You can't really expect this guy to be some sort of savior. And yeah, man, you would think that the two guys that make all the all-star teams, that win the MVPs, that, you know, chirping in the media all the time about a lack of respect or appreciation for what they do, you would hope that you can lean on them in a game seven. And it just wasn't the case. Boston was just flat out way better than these dudes. Yeah, if we don't know what more to say about the Sixers, maybe we should talk more about the team that blew this game the fuck out. And in particular, the guy who, you know, humbly is one of the best basketball players in the world. So Tatum has 51. That sets a record in a game seven set, what, last week, two weeks ago?

Two weeks ago. The untouchable two-week-old record has been touched. 51, 11, and 5. Rob alluded to this earlier. The way in which Tatum attacked earlier, I think just set up Boston to really just completely monsoon the Sixers in the third quarter. he was just like so focused on attacking, attacking, attacking. He was getting around a lot of the screens and even Joelle like slender man, basically. He was like particularly Tatum-esque and also aggressive, which as we've talked about so many times over the past couple of years,

this is the big difference between a good Tatum and a bad Tatum performance. And so after he gets to the rack, then he steps back and pulls Joel out and hits all the threes in the third quarter leading to a 33 and 10 quarter for the Celtics, which was the largest margin of victory in a quarter in a game seven in history according to our friend Law Murray. I just thought it was a classic like Tatum gets to the rim which opens up his three-pointer,

which opens up everything else for the rest of the Celtics round. It's a very clear step-by-step-by-step masterpiece here that like I don't know what even a Sixers team that was clicking would have done. Yeah, completely. And this is why when Tatum doesn't dominate

or isn't excellent, people understandably get a little frustrated. There are other stars in the league who have gaps in their games, who have holes in their games, but if you can do everything, the responsibility is on you to figure out what the defense is giving you, what you can get to,

how do you set up dominating later in the game in exactly the way he did in this one? And in particular, look, part of the reason that I feel compelled to bag on Joel a little bit after a game like this is most of the time in the modern NBA, we don't get Superstar going at Superstar, level of clarity. It's just not

the way the matchups work. Teams will hide their stars on lesser players or shift them into other roles or other defensive responsibilities. This was straight up Jason Tatum going at Joel Embed. And he won inside, he won outside, he won the game. Just based off of

that one star-vers-star matchup, I hate to be that reductive, but honestly, that's what this game was. Was his ability to beat Joel in one-on-one scenarios won them the game? Yeah, he got downhill with a purpose today. And so, you know, earlier, earlier in the game when he was getting to the basket, one, he wasn't doing the flailing trying to, like, just draw a foul rather than, like, you know,

scoring a layup. He didn't do that. And then two, earlier, Joel was kind of respecting Horford's sort of gravity. And so he was a little bit further out on the floor, right? So Tatum, when he got all the way to the cup, it was a little bit less resistant. But then Tatum just started challenging this guy directly and scoring above him, getting files, getting to the line. That, to me, was the most heartening part of the game on Tatar's part. Like, whatever, like, the stepbacks are going to come and go, right? But if he's getting to the basket with purpose and force, that's what takes him to the next level of players.

So that was, you know, you got to hand it to the guy. Like, I don't think, I think something between record breaking and. one for 13 would have done would have been enough to win this game but the fact that he came out and did it in this big ass spot you gotta tip your hat to the guy he was incredible yeah and that's where I wonder if

the Celtics long long history of being in these types of games really comes to bear here Tatum is what 25 years old I believe Brown is 26 and as I said on the broadcast this was Brown's seventh game seven already of his career

I mean, the Celtics look like they belong there, whereas the Sixers, and in particular, Joel and Bede Sixers did not. These stats are from Ben Gulliver. Over Embed's playoff career, he is now 5 and 6 in series, so 5 series wins, 6 series losses, 0 and 4 in series against 50 win teams

and zero Eastern Conference finals. For the listeners, is wondering why I'm laughing at this. I already had Ben's tweet Q. I had my fellow. Because I will say this, Ben Gulliver shouts to him on my show was the first person to sort of debut the, isn't me to playoff fraud? He was the first guy. Before that, I'd never heard it.

It had always been Ben Simmons' fault. And Mike, not Mike Brown. What was their first coach name? What was his name? You're talking about Bruce. Bruce Brown? Who are you talking about? Brett Brown.

The coach. You're talking about Brad Brown. Brad Brown. It was Brett Brown's fault. It was Ben Simmons's fault. It was everybody else's fault, except for precious Joelle and B, the Savior, the process, the answer.

And now it's just been laid bad, man. It's like, this guy has to be way better if this team's ever going to accomplish anything. Like, not like, oh, he has to kind of, you know, taper some things here and there. No, he has to play way better than this. Well, not to completely submarine your point

and all of our analysis on Juell to this stage but I thought Mike Prada had another interesting stat that was related to this which is Doc Rivers coached teams are now 16 and 33 when they have three wins in a seven game series they have three wins and from that point

they are 16 and 33 Jesus well that's probably what we should discuss next year because Philly is in for a very long, cold summer here. So who gets the blame here and what do we do about it? Is this a clear Doc Rivers firing? We bring the band back together and hope that a new voice in the room can rally this team in the way that it couldn't for many,

many other different variations and many different coaches. Is it cutting ties-wise with James Hardin? I know he has a player option, so it's technically in his hands what he wants to do, but is there a way to wash your hands with him and maybe start a new? by trading for another superstar? Or do we even get to the nuclear option here where Embed is the one being like, actually it's your guys's fault. Get me the hell out of here.

I want to go play with like a Jimmy Butler or someone else because this clearly isn't working in Philly. To me, Philly has to. I mean, the Doc thing, I've been saying I don't think he was long for that job anyway. And so that seems like fate of conflidate that Doc would be gone. To me, it's like if James Harder can come back at a reasonable. number, I think they should bring them back. He's still a quality player, but if it's, you know, if he wants to get

paid like 40, 50 million dollars, like guys at the absolute top of the max contracts, no, I'm sorry, you can go back to Houston and go party some more if that's what you want to do. And to me, it's like you have to believe that the

man who just won MVP is capable of being better in the playoffs. You have to make that bet. Like, as critical as I have been of Joelle and B. I can't believe this is the best he can offer in the playoffs. He's definitely capable

of doing more than this. And quite frankly, you got to bet that he can be like, you know, the generational talent that he's shown himself to be at times. And so that's what it is to me. Bring James back on a reasonable number. Probably let Doc go play golf.

And, yeah, ride it out. Make roster tweaks. Get better. Obviously, that should always be the goal, but you're all in on Joelle and Bede, and you should be, quite frankly. And that's where Harden, to his credit, did take less last summer so that they could go get

PJ Tucker. But now he might have to do it again. He might have to take less again in the hopes that it can at least accentuate this roster in some way, like give them some opportunity to get somebody else. Because again, if this is the construction, even if Joel, let's say Joel Embed plays

at a Joel and Bede level, the Celtics might have won this game anyway. Like, The margin was so significant. They might have beaten even an MVP form, Joelle, Embed. So it's tough to say that just this roster as constructed is good enough. They're going to have to keep tinkering. They're going to have to keep finding solutions because some of what they're getting in kind of the breakdown of these minutes just isn't quite good enough.

Yeah, I mean, it ultimately becomes a money question at that point. So even if Hardin comes back on a lower number, you're still flirting with the luxury tax. And then as we've seen reported, being so far in the luxury tax will also limit what you can give in free agency. I believe the mid-level exception is no longer at your service. If you're above a second tax apron, also you can't sign buyout guys, which is like one of the most funny overreaches in CBA history. It's like never does a buyout guy really affect a playoff series. And yet now it's going to be limited. Go ahead.

Counterpoint. Yeah. Would the heat be in the second round if they didn't get a bought out Kevin Love? Hey. Sorry, going to the conference finals if they didn't get a bought-out Kevin Love. I think he was 0 for 7 in the game right before they punched their tickets.

I'm not saying he doesn't have stinkers. He's made a difference, though. He was crucial in that Milwaukee matchup for sure. Reggie Jackson's agent loves your defense of the buyouts. Yes. So on the one hand, it is going to be difficult regardless. If they do stay in their current construction and maybe get a different coach,

Monty Williams now on the market, we'll get to that later. obviously he was a doc assistant a couple years ago. He makes probably the easiest fit among the guys on the market. I think it ultimately becomes a maxi conversation. Maxi was pretty good in this game. I thought he was particularly good, getting

attacking the defense and using his speed while everyone was drawing attention to Embed and to a lesser extent Harden. I think he had 17 points in this one. But you know, Maxi's at the point of his career now where he's been kind of the interesting guy and I do wonder if he needs to

take a step forward to be the number two guy, the kind of guy who can lift Joel Embed when he isn't performing, because clearly Hardin isn't that guy. And so, Rob, I kind of wonder, like, where are you on Maxie? Is he like future All-Star or is he a step below? And if he's a step below, I wonder if that's not actually the type of guy that need at this point. I think he would need to show something a little more to be in that future All-Star conversation. I think he can get there, ultimately, but we need to see that kind of progression. And he had moments in the series where he looked like he was on the cusp of it. You know, game five and six in particular,

really essential performances for the Sixers in ways that look like, okay, maybe this is a guy stepping into that kind of responsibility, stepping into the kinds of knights one, when James Harden falters, he can pick up some of that slack. I think ultimately with where his game is right now and specifically his ability to read coverage

is much more in the capacity of a third guy than it is a first or second guy. And so if he can get better at that, at the, you know, come around a screen, when you get blitzed, are you making the right timely play? Come around a screen, you get the switch. Are you making the right decision on attacking the big versus feeding Joel?

Those are the kinds of things he has to get a little bit sharper at. And we'll see. We'll see if that's ultimately his trajectory or if he's always going to be this intriguing score who flanks other stars. Yeah, I think ultimately to echo what Rob said, his feel has to get better. He's pretty one note, right? Like he's either crashing downhill, which I love, you know, I love his ability to get all the way to the cup or, you know, his spot. His stroke on his spot-up jumpers is absolutely beautiful, right? Like, the guy's proven that he can make jump shots.

It's that in-between stuff reading defense and stuff that people do get better at, honestly. He's still a really young guy. But, yeah, as far as taking the mantle, you never know, right? Like, another example of this would be somebody like a Jalen Brunson. Like, I don't think that people could have predicted that he'd be dropping 40 in elimination games, you know, in the playoffs this year. I don't know that people would have necessarily saw that for him because he was never asked to do it.

Maybe he can get to a level if given more responsibility that would make him an all-star type of guy. Yeah, and obviously the defensive concerns of the maxi, Harden back court are always going to be there too. So that brings me to the other option, which is more of a

nuclear option, which is basically allow Hardin maybe to leave via free agency, let him just escape to Houston and then really remodel this and maybe even use Maxie as trade fodder in order to get a clear cut number

two next to InBeed. Harris becomes an expiring contract finally after 30 years and then you have Maxie and then you have whatever picks aren't nailed down and so if you get a star who wants to go specifically to Philly Rob you probably are at least in the mix

there are some other teams there out there New Orleans etc. that have a lot of picks in order to bid you, but if you have some sort of advantage or whatnot, you could see like, I don't know, a Bradley Beal, a Zach Levine, all the guys that we've talked about before. That's door number two. Do you like that more than door number one? It's definitely the more extreme route. I like, so door number one is like more or less the team as constructed. And then you're just hoping that Maxie takes a leap or you just get enough guys on the fringes in order to make this work somehow. I prefer door number one in part because the timing of the

kind of plan you're laying out is very precarious, right? Okay, we're going to play the trade market simultaneously while James Harden declines his player option and becomes an unrestricted free agent. So what if you strike out on the trade market and then James Hardin bolts anyway? And then you're left with this team just minus James Harden. And that is not a tenable situation for one, a superstar in his prime and Joel and Bede. And two, this specific superstar who like just should not.

be carrying massive regular season loads if you want him to get through the postseason in one piece. The reason why I like door number one way better, because it's like, is Bradley Beale making this way better? It's hard to say what star would be filling that slot because things change so frequently, but someone in that realm, you know? Yeah. This is shaping up to be a really unpredictable summer, right? We have these contending teams that are going to go through upheaval, the Sixers, potentially the Bucks, we're already seeing it with the Sons, another team that's going to have a lot of change

between now and the start of the season. We just have no idea, not only with coaching musical chairs who's going to end up where, but with some of the players involved, who's going to end up being shipped off, which stars are going to want out of some of these situations or other ones, I think things could get pretty noisy pretty quickly. And so maybe that's

why you at least keep the door number two option. You're at least eyeing door number two, maybe for a little while until your option deadlines comes and goes. And by the way, like, you can't possibly look up and down the Miami Heat or the L.A. Lakers roster and think to yourself, man, it's going to be so difficult to get to that level. Like, you can't possibly think that, right? And so they'd be justified in exploring different options and trying to make this thing way better. I just think, honestly, bringing these guys back, hoping for internal improvement from your young guy, and just knowing that Joelle is capable of more. is their best option. See, but I'm also kind of worried about Embed in particular, but the Sixers as a whole

constantly getting to this point and falling flat. How many times can you keep getting put through the same rinse cycle and ending up in the same place? And even though logically we could sit back and say, like, Sixers is pretty good roster. If they just roll this back, they might be in the same place next year and a couple things go their way. And Beed finally doesn't get hurt in a playoff series.

Then maybe this is the time that they break through. but I do wonder how much that wears on people. In particular, Rob, like, Embedde. Like, do you think there's a world in which Embedde is the guy actually asking out? Yeah, the answer to your question of how many times do you do this is as many times as Joelle Embedd is willing to do it. Until he says otherwise, until he says he wants to be elsewhere, you have to keep continuing to try to retool.

Like, the only question is how dramatically, like, whether we want to cut the subtle door number one route or the dramatic door number two route, so long as Joel is along for this ride and wants to prove that he can do this as a sixer, that's your only option and your only consideration. You are absolutely, like, laser-focused on that possibility. I don't see him asking for that this summer necessarily, but stars are known to catch us by surprise from time to time. You know, Stranger Things have certainly happened.

Look, I'm a bigger Zach Levine fan than most, but he's, like, how is this team supposed to perform, like, offense with Zach Levine as like their main engine on the perimeter. Like playmaking is just not his thing right? And that's the thing about Joel. He's not he's not

Nicola Yolich who can just bring the ball up and start offense. Like he needs somebody to orchestrate for him. Now if they could get in the mix for Dame Lillard, okay, now you're talking. Now you got something that I'm very interested

in. But Zach Levine, and Bradley Beal are going to make this way better? No, I mean, I wouldn't advocate for Levine, but I think you're right. I think Dame is definitely someone who probably moves to natal, or if Indeed is the one who wants out, like maybe he's like, hey, Jimmy, I've always wanted to finish this thing out with you.

Like, maybe the heat trade for Embineb. Wild things can happen. And I wouldn't put a pass Philly of all teams to be involved in that. It's going to be a great summer. What does the heat package for Embedie look like? like, bam out of bio and the great Kevin Love. Bam,

all of these like grinders that are used to be on two ways that are now overpaid. Sure. And then I think silently, as we've mentioned before, they have reacquired a lot of their, the ability to trade all of their picks. So like the heat do have the give, give you my entire future draft and have fun with it,

sort of package that we've seen a lot in recent years. Okay. You bought that one? Not really, but it's the closest we're going to get. I can see it happening, but I guess that depends on what happens in the East finals, because we once again, third time, we have Heat Celtics in the conference finals. Overall, we have the Bubbles conference finals rerun happening here. Was, just quickly before we turn to other business, any early thoughts about Heat Celtics round three?

I think the Celtics will ultimately prevail because they are way more talented than the Heat, like way more, but because it's the Celtics, they're going to throw up all over themselves in the process, but they will eventually prevail and win in six or seven games. But they're just so much better

than Miami is. You know, I just kidding. Even with Joe Missoula, who at times, it's touch and go with that guy at times when it comes to strategy. And Spowe is as good as it gets in the NBA. Like, everybody pretty much acknowledges that.

So I think Boston will ultimately prevail. But come on, man, they lost game one. Joel and B. didn't even play. Right? We know what these guys are capable of in that sense and disappointing us. But I think you know, top the bottom they're just so much better than

Miami is. Even from the time the Heat won that first round series, it felt like a bit of a ticking clock as to when is this going to finally catch up to them, the fact that they're just stringing a rotation together with the guys that they happen to have, especially with we probably don't dwell on it enough.

Tyler Hero just continues to be out and they're still making all this work. You know, Victor Oladipo continues to be out and they're still making all this work. It's amazing. I don't know that it's amazing enough to beat the Celtics. So I'm in alignment with Waz on, it feels like a series that's probably going to go longer

because of Boston's own tendencies, but I think that probably has more to do with the Celtics than the heat. Can we talk about quickly Tyler Hero just looking like he's going to hot topic every day during like some of these series? Let me tell you, Seventh grade Rob is here for it. Let me tell you that.

Yeah, he is a proto-Gen Z for Shoski. I mean, Jesus Christ, dude. Ugh. So Jimmy versus the Bucks in the first round, 37.6 points per game, six rebounds, four point assists against the next 24.6 points, 7.2 rebounds, six assists.

We talked about it a little bit last week. It just seems like Jimmy, whether he's hobbled or people have just found out that, like, you just overload on Jimmy and make some of the other shooters beat them. I think there's like a pretty clear game plan in place in order to to slow them down. So we'll see about that. We'll take a quick break right here. And then we come back.

We'll talk about John Morant. Monty Williams being fired and some other stuff. All right. Now it's time to talk about John Morant yet again. A video, an IG live video was released over the weekend. We're not totally sure when this was published. But the grizzly suspended Morant today on Sunday from all team activities for brandishing a gun in what appears to be just a car with his friend while they're wrapping. It's really tough to see what's happening and the gun only appears for what seems to be a couple seconds.

I don't know. What is what do you think about all this? We're now like what? A couple months maybe. I think March was when he got suspended at the first. time eight games for doing a similar thing in a club in Denver and now here we are again with Jha in a similar situation. I mean, I'll say this.

I don't know what it means to be suspended for the team while it's the offseason. It's kind of like, you know, I'm not at work. So you can suspend me all you want, right? So there's that part of it that they're coming out with that sort of muscular response. I think when this happened matters, obviously. If this is an old video that's been resurfaced, you know, it's just more evidence that John Morant was out here being a knucklehead. If this was, if this actually just happened the other day after all of the quote-unquote

therapy and this and that, he might be the dumbest NBA player of all time. Seriously. Because it's not even, because this isn't just like menacing. It's just stupid. Completely dumb. Like, yo, just get off alive, stop flashing guns, be like, and this is the thing, too. This is, because this is so frustrating. A lot of people in my life, like, know what I do for work.

So they're just like, yo, does the NBA ever rule against guns, blah, blah, blah, this and this and that? Would it be okay if he was just hunting, blah, blah, blah? I'm just like, yo, there are 450 other NBA players, and none of them managed to do this. He's an outlier in how stupid he behaves, dude. Like, nobody else. It's not one of those things just like, oh, it's. kids his age and NBA guys tend to do this, blah, blah, blah, some of the stupid excuses that we come up with for people.

He is the only person doing this in the entire league. So, like I said, the timing matters, obviously. If it's an old thing being resurfaced, that's unfortunate, but he's opened himself up to this with his own behavior. But again, if this is new, this guy is just the dumbest guy in the NBA. I would be curious to see, even if it is an old video, if there's still punishment, right? Just on kind of like a repeat basis of this, like continuing to happen before the previous

suspension, if there's any punishment as it results from that. Because Woj said today that, you know, there's kind of an expectation or a thought that there could be a lengthy suspension, a significant suspension for JAA to start the season, if this turns out to be what it appears to be. We'll wait and see, but I would not be surprised if there's a lot of pressure around the league on the idea of a Joss suspension for exactly the reason you're outlining was. so many guys managed to not do exactly this thing. And when John Morant does, it draws a lot of negative attention.

It draws a lot of, like, it pulls the attention away from us talking about a game seven in the NBA, like, to set up an NBA conference final into what's going on on John Morant's Instagram. That's just not where the NBA or any of the stakeholders in it want the attention to be. And again, people are going to say, what's the big deal, right? the NBA is selling a family product, all ages product. There's a difference where if he had like shot a freaking moose or a deer or whatever and hanging out on Instagram because that's what people in the country do. All right, cool. He's rapping a song in which the guy in the song is talking about murdering people

and flashing a gat. It's just a difference in kind. And who wants to be affiliated with that? Like, bro, you're not a rapper. you are an NBA player who has already put pen to paper on over $300 million in deals. Okay? Like, what are you doing? And that's why this is a big deal.

It's just like, bro, nobody wants to be affiliated with this. Yep. And the pattern, I think, is starting to reveal itself as well. So we had the suspension in March for eight games, but I think that it wasn't eight full games because he was sent to Florida to go to a sandals resort or whatever happened there where pretended like he just became a new person from that. There's also, I believe, Jha is currently still being sued for punching a teenage boy during a pickup game in which allegedly after the scuffle happened, he went inside his house and then came out with a gun in his

waistband. There was also the alleged laser pointing incident in Indiana where a car in which a job was in, an SUV pointed potentially a laser from a gun at Pacers, people. Hard to say the details there are pretty vague and whatnot. And then there was obviously the Shannon Sharp sweater off with Team Morant and the rest of the Grizzlies. So, and this is all within, I believe, a calendar year because I think the incident with the boy being punched was last summer, if I'm being, if I'm correct.

So this is one year for one player. I don't think you get this in totality from the entire league. That's the thing. If you're facing litigation for confronting a minor with a gun in your waistband, maybe don't on multiple occasions flash a gun around on social media. It just seems like a bad legal strategy, if nothing else. Yeah. And I do wonder, to rob your earlier point, like how hard the NBA comes down in it,

because the first suspension was a pretty soft on crime approach. where it seemed like the NBA worked with Morant and the Grizzlies in order to try to soften the blow by putting him in this facility or making it seem like he was just, he needed to get help for underscribed sort of issues. And he came back and did the ESPN interviews. And it was a very like, I did wrong. Let me give penance for it.

I do wonder now if that approach has already been done and you have to give more of like a Gilbert Arena style penalty for this, where it's like we have to take away lumps of game and lumps of money in order to make this look like we're really laying down the law here. Yeah. We just have to hope that, I mean, honestly, if this is a previous video that has been dredged up, that's obviously much better than if he just continues to do this, especially when after the Grizzlies were eliminated,

John Morant walked to the podium and said, quote, I've just got to be better with my decision making. That's pretty much it. Off the court issues affected us as an organization pretty much just more discipline, end quote. This certainly isn't that if this is what's happening, you know, this week or really any time since his previous suspension. So we'll see what the timing of that turns out to be,

what the punishment of that turns out to be. There's a lot of balls in the air, but this is the kind of decision that not only changes the future of team Morant and whether he's available, but the Memphis Grizzlies organization as we know it, how they invest, what their team looks like. The impacts of these things spread pretty far and wide, considering that Jaws a player that the NBA and the Grizzlies

have obviously invested a lot in putting front and center for their product. I, for one, am shocked that Dylan Brooks was not the source of all of the problems in Memphis. Turns out. All right, so Monty Williams also fired on, I believe, Saturday. Rob, you spent a lot of time in Phoenix. recently. On the one hand, this is the second straight year

in which the sons were rejected from the playoffs in kind of embarrassing fashion. But on the other hand, Moni has been quite successful over his four years in Phoenix. 63% winning percentage, went to the finals, one coach of the year just last season.

In your many hours and days being marooned in a Phoenix hotel, did this seem like something that could come as a result of that game? six, I believe, loss, or was this kind of out of nowhere? Oh, for sure. It seemed like something that could be possible.

Honestly, any time the ownership of a team changes, it's possible. And that's true for anyone in any capacity, front office, coaching, players on the roster, you don't buy teams to keep everything the same. It's just not what any billionaire is out there looking to do. But you said the past two post seasons,

and look, I think I have a very high opinion of Monty Williams as a head coach. And in particular, I think, our estimation of what coaches do is extremely limited. We talk about adjustments. We ignore the 90% human level interaction that goes in managing a team and a franchise. I think Bonnie Williams is great at those things, even if sometimes we disagree with his tactics. But I would argue it's not just the last two seasons.

Even when the Sons went to the finals, they were up to O in that series and blew it. So we're talking about really three playoff runs that have ended in some kind of, you know, if not totally surprising fashion, some kind of disappointment one way or another. You can argue that this year's team, you know, was doomed for the start with how shallow it was after the trade. But I think a lot of people there expected them to do better, and you're seeing the repercussions of that, realistic or not. Yeah, I would wholly agree with Rob, you know, 2021.

We can now understand that that Bucks team might not have been that good. Who knows? Sorry, I'm being rude today. I shouldn't do that. But no, like, the, the, um, the, the, um, the, the, the, The new owner comes in, he's going to want to put his fingerprints on it. And the NBA and got nothing to do with, does Mani deserve to be fired or not? The performance of this team was such that he left it open, that he could be replaced.

And so that's what's going to happen. I'll echo the stuff that Justin said as well. I don't think many people thought he was that good of a coach in New Orleans. Some people thought he was, like, actively bad. By the time he got to the suns, he was much improved. coach and the things that matter more than anything in the NBA is connecting with these guys on a human level. You can have all the X's and O's you want.

If you cannot communicate in such a way that guys actually want to go out and perform those exes and O's, it does not matter. And he's got the people component down with everybody, if not Dianneuxa Aiton. Well, I think that's kind of the big question. How much was this Moni's failings in this certain situation with these players? potentially? Or is it Matt Ishbya coming in and wanting to just raise everything that doesn't fit his exact preferences? Because Woj had this one little piece of information in his news report that went up, I believe, yesterday that Ishpia has fully taken over the franchise's basketball

operations, including the negotiation of the February trade of Kevin Durant and now the dismissal of Williams. If you look at the news story today on Sunday, that no longer exists in the story, which is mighty curious, but I think that's the question, Rob, is how much is this new owner syndrome wanting to just do whatever he can, just throw around the money, just make a big bunch of bold moves

versus Williams not being suited for maybe this roster or where this roster is post Kevin Durant trade? I think it's so much more new owner syndrome, to be honest with you. And just look at the overall broader conversation throughout that Sun's Nugget series and especially in the aftermath of it.

I know there was some hand-wringing about, oh, Monty's not making these particular adjustments. But look at the roster, man. I guess you could argue if he had invested in certain pockets of it earlier in the postseason, then maybe he would trust them more in the end game. But ultimately, he was just a team that didn't have enough. Didn't have enough reliable players, didn't have enough guys who they could trust, didn't have enough guys who can play both offense and defense. You know, what a concept?

That's just not where their roster was by the end of the season. And really, I don't think it would have been there even. if they had never made the Durant trade in the first place. They were a pretty limited team as it was. So Monty, I think, made some mistakes. Ultimately, was not the reason they were eliminated from the playoffs, was not, didn't do a job that you would say, you would say, oh, he needs to be fired, but you don't need to be fired to get fired in the NBA.

Sometimes you just get canned. And in this case, sometimes you get canned with a lot of money reportedly left on your contract. Yeah, he just signed an extension. He's going to be paid. He's going to be old. And I think he will absolutely be back in the league. because he has a sterling reputation. Yep.

You can't get a guy besides DeAndre Aiton to say a bad thing about the guy. So he's going to be back. He's going to get paid. He's going to land on his feet and deservedly so. But to add on to what Rob was saying about the new owner syndrome, new owner who was a dorky-ass walk-on for a D-1 team. So not only, so remember when Vivek was like, oh, I did this thing with my,

with my girls, my daughter's CYO basketball team. Just think about that, but worse. Like, this guy actually thinks he knows about who, right? And so he's going to want to make his own decisions for sure. Yeah, I mean, I think Isbya probably got off a little

softer than he typically would have for the Durant trade. And one, because it's Kevin Durant. You brought Kevin Durant to your team. People are going to love it. Obviously, I think the media, was very kind to our friend Matt, in particular certain outlets, who had the story of his triumphant trade negotiation

with the Nets first or maybe close to first. But I also wonder if he profited... I thought you was taking shots at my guy Bill Simmons for having him on the pod. I was about to say, you're disrespectful. Oh, no, I would never do that. I don't have that much job security. Are you kidding me?

I'd be Monty Williams out here. But I think he benefited by not being Robert Sarver. Like the bar was set so low by the Sarver era that just adding to the team as opposed to like taking things off the table, I think just led to him having a positive reception there and not even getting into the whole mess that led to Sarver's ousting there. It's just as things go on, I'm starting to wonder if Ishbia is well intentioned but might be causing more harm than good. which is just starting. I think we're going to have to wait and see. What we do know is that, you know, language in Woj's report removed or not,

he does seem at least to be a pretty interventionist owner, right? He wants to be hands-on. He wants to be involved with these things. Yolkich figured that out. Well, yeah. I mean, look, some owners are more involved in the game than others. But the fact that he comes in, and one of the first things he does

is not only completely change the roster with Kevin Durant, but completely changes leadership in Monty Williams, suggest there's a lot more to come, a lot more restructuring to come. And so I would say let's hold the phone on that until we see kind of how it all shakes out and what it looks like. And there's been rumors for a long time,

literally from the moment he was reported, being connected to buying the team, that, oh, if he does, this is a guy who has this relationship with Isaiah Thomas, who could conceivably bring him in as an executive. They're seen sitting courtside together in that exact moment you're talking about,

Justin, where he had that interaction with Yokic. I'm just saying more things could be down the pipeline. There's certainly a lot of tea leaves here to collect and read. That's the guy you wanted to drain the swamp, is Isaiah Thomas. Apparently. About the KD deal, I don't see a reason to kill the guy. I understand why you do that deal. Theoretically, their ceiling was raised by taking on KD.

Nobody thought Phoenix was doing anything significant in this year's postseason as the roster was constructed before KD came in. Everybody felt like it was flat and that they needed to do something to spruce things up, right? And so I'm not going to fault them for that. However, again, a lot of this is theoretical. I was talking to somebody and I was like, man, everybody sort of accepts that KD is now a better basketball player

than LeBron and they play the same position. But if you switch those two out, I don't think the Lakers are doing this. because KD's not a leader. He's kind of like, yeah, I show up, I take my pull-up Jays, I go home. I'm not tasked with keeping a group on task and keeping a group together. He's just not that type of superstar.

And so how do you account for that when you're a new owner? And you just see the tantalizing talent, but don't really take it to account like what it means when your best player isn't sort of this galvanizing figure, right? I don't know if I could blame the guy for that. It's Kevin freaking Durant. at the end of the day.

As we saw in Brooklyn, I mean, Katie doesn't have the best taste in personnel. So maybe it's not in everyone's best interest to let Katie have that role. I love that point, though, and especially the LeBron side of it, where when you have a presence like that, it allows your best player to be Anthony Davis.

And Anthony Davis, I think, is probably closer to the Durant model than he is to the LeBron model. And so you need a balance of that, of leadership on the floor, of leadership and personality, and leadership and habit, It doesn't really matter where it all comes from.

You just have to cobble it together somehow. And so we'll have to see kind of what the new look sons, which are going to be built around and imagined around Devin Booker and Kevin Durant, where do those things ultimately come from? Because there's going to be a lot of DeAndre Aiton trade chatter. There's going to be a lot of Chris Paul trade chatter. This could be a totally different looking team

by the time they sued up next fall. The first coaching rumor that popped up from our friend Mark Stein was that Ty Lou could potentially be lured away from the Clippers was, is someone who has defended the Bill Belichick of coaching before. Do you like that fit with Lou and Katie and Booker? I love Tailoo. He's a guy who's willing to try things. He's very offensive-minded.

I know he doesn't always like, and it's not that he doesn't coach defense, but he's focused on offense. And his teams always, always are pretty creative, right, offensively. And more importantly, he's somebody who players respect. he's not afraid of guys he's not going to get yelled at by KD or Devin Booker like he's going to actually be an authority figure

in there I'm one of Tai Loo's biggest fans I thought it was a mistake when the Lakers cheaped out and then bring him in they've obviously rectified that by bringing in Darvinham who's been excellent but I'm a Tileu guy and so yeah I think that would

be an excellent acquisition for them well not only is he creative offensively was but he has a lot of creative executions around a killer pull-up shooting forward and a do-it-all like off-ball force a la Paul George and Devin Booker

like there's a lot of similarities between the situations and even more importantly making things work with center by committee point guard by committee duct taping a roster together around your stars to make it work. If you were going to look at the model of the teams who have done what the Phoenix Suns just failed to, the clippers are probably a great example of that

not just in some of their playoff runs which I think they're probably ultimately more accomplished than some people remember. You know, some of their runs have been more successful given their injuries than people remember. But just getting through these regular seasons alive, Tailu is a huge reason for that. So we'll have Monty Williams on the market, Mike Boodenholzer, Frank Vogel, all finals. Nick Nurse, potentially Ty Lou. Man, I think being a good coach and making the finals is probably like the worst thing. Dude, Steve Kerr's the only guy that.

that's won a championship that's still on the team in the last like seven years or whatever the hell it is. Him and Spoh. Yeah. But there's not a thing you can do as an NBA coach to have job security, it turns out. If winning isn't enough, I genuinely don't know what some of these guys are supposed to put on their resume. I'm sure the millions and millions of dollars help soften that blow. They'll do fine. Yeah. But no, but Waz brings up Kerr, and that's a good transition to the Warriors here. We did want to talk about them just because of all of the ripple effect. from their loss to the Lakers in Game 6. Why don't we start with Kerr's quote-wise from that game?

To be fair, I think this team ultimately maxed out. We were barely in the playoff picture most of the year. This is not a championship team. You're someone who is higher on the Warriors, I think, than us throughout the season. Are you surprised at this kind of a mission from Kerr? because, like, even I, who is dubious of the Warriors' ability to get back to the finals, didn't think this poorly of them. Apparently, their head coach did.

I mean, I think it's kind of one of those things where you're trying to take responsibility for what happened, right? Like, you can't say, oh, we're this championship caliber team, and we flamed out in the second round. Like, those two things don't go together. That's what I think Steve Kerr is doing it. But at the same time, like, I don't think they're that far. The Lakers thoroughly outplayed them throughout the course of that series. But, you know, a bounce here in game one, a bounce here, Alani Walker explosion in game four. And we might be talking about something completely different today, right?

I think they need to get another guy on the perimeter who they trust to defend people. Because we know Clay Thompson, love him the death. He's just not that kind of defender anymore. We know what Jordan Poole's limitations are. you know, another big who can like spell Looney at Center. Like it shouldn't be that hard to upgrade the things around Steph. And that's the privilege of having Steph Curry, man. Like you ain't got to have much to get there.

He's still playing at an absolute MVP level caliber. He showed that in his playoffs. Even when he struggles, he's still a major threat when he's out there. And so I don't think they're that far, but I tend to agree what Steve Kerr was saying. It's just like, look at the guys they had to throw, like, like Moody is out there trying to guard LeBron in the post in a pivotal game. Like, nah. Like in the past, they've had better options than that, right? Like Agu Dala could spell them and Harry Barnes and like they could throw people out there.

Otto Porter. Like these guys, they didn't have those guys this year and they suffered for it. they really did you know there's there's kind of two ways the warriors dropped off if steve cur is right and this wasn't a championship team it's for two reasons one clay thompson and jordan pool were just not as good as they were in the playoffs a year ago they were not delivering as consistently and pool especially just fell off a cliff the other part of it is that they didn't walking right around that the other part of it was they were missing the auto porter fully engaged and healthy Gary Payton the second,

Namanya B. Elitza kind of core rounding out the team. They're missing what the Lakers had in Jared Vanderbilt and Lonnie Walker and Rui Hachamura. You know, moves that on its face, like, I certainly didn't think we're going to completely change their futures but turned out to be really pivotal.

I didn't know when they got Rue Hachamora. I was like that just nothing for me. Thank you for using eye words, by the way, guys. Yeah. You know, it's some of us more than others. But those were the kinds of pieces that the Warriors were missing.

We're just enough guys to round out the rotation. And so if they can find some more of those players or more importantly, we say, yet again, for like the third consecutive year,

if Moses Moody and Jonathan Cuminga can become those players, then maybe they have something here, even without having to make dramatic changes. Because I don't know that the Clay Thompson trade possibility

is even realistic enough to entertain. I just don't see the Warriors doing it. And I don't see the Jordan Pool trade possibilities bearing much fruit. So I think they're going to have to find some subtler ways to get better while this is still the core of the team. You don't think it makes sense to pay your shooting guard position $70 million to be barely

above average? The math isn't adding up for me. I don't know what it is, but I'm getting a little caught on maybe it's like the long division of that. Yeah, to me, if Clay takes a deal that's around or less than what Jordan Pool is making annually and they find they'll find somebody to take Jordan Pool. Like he's not that horrible Like the guy he has on ball juice

He can shoot it There's teams that are always going to be in the market for that I think they'll be fine Yeah I think we're all in agreement I was just a little surprised that One series lost the one time That Kerr did not lose in the finals It was our always like already

Dynasty over I was like that seems a little too hasty But I guess to play the devil's advocate Here are all the things that they need to sort out over the summer, whether or not Bob Myers will return. And we get updates on that seemingly every two days at this point. And I can't wait for his podcast announcing what he's going to do next season. Jemond Green has a $28 million player option.

And if he doesn't accept that, you assume that he's going to be asking for an extension. Clay is on a $43 million expiring next season and is presumably going to be looking for some type of extension. because this is what players of his caliber do at that point of their contract. Dante DiVincenzo has a $4.7 million player option. Jordan Poole's four-year $128 million extension kicks in because he agreed to it last season, but it doesn't start until next season. Jonathan Caminga, amid all of this,

wants a bigger role or he wants out to the point I saw today a report that he's going to be playing a lot in the big market summer games in particular to get more attention from some of those teams or just NBA people in general. Oh, by the way, the new CBA is going to be coming in which a lot of the second apron restrictions that we outlined above all kick in. So, yes, on the one hand, I do think it's a little hasty because as long as they have Steph Curry, the dynasty, still seems like it's potentially going. The spurs are a clear example of that where they had a couple foul years where they just didn't win the title and all of a sudden, here they are testing the heat in the finals.

On the other hand, there's a lot to figure out here, Rob. Yeah, but if you have Steph, you're never that far off. Even if you need to reimagine what the core of your team looks like, and they might have to at some point. But Steph, he held up his end to the bargain in these playoffs. And when they struggled, yes, he struggled shooting threes in some of those games, but he found ways to get to the rim. He found ways to rack up assist. He was still the driver of a pretty high-level offense. There just weren't enough players around him who could hit shots or move or handle the ball,

or in some cases even really be very stout defensively. I'm looking again at you, Jordan Poole. There's just so many issues with that roster that go beyond him that I think we can still look at this as being a stable superstar situation. Now you have to round out the rest of it with something that looks like a championship team again. Yeah, I can do all things through Steph Curry, who strengthens me. People will remember 2012, the Spurs were absolutely incredible, smoking everybody in the playoffs,

go up 2-0 on the Thunder, then basically get their doors blown off, right? And everybody thought, wow, this is it. You know, Timmy's old, mom's old, you know, Tony is done, it's over, and then what? You know, they're right back in the finals, the next two years, one of which they completely blew the doors off of Miami and ended that dynasty

or that run or whatever. And so, you know, I think it'd be foolish to why, what Steph Curry did in the playoffs this year and think that Golden State is like somehow way out of the championship picture or focus. I thought Wiggins was still pretty damn good in the playoffs. I mean, the guy had a rib contusion or whatever, and he's got LeBron James posting him up,

four arms in his freaking ribs. You know, like Wiggins is still a good player. I think they're going to be fine, honestly. So I think we agree, though, that something needs to happen. And there are reports, and I think Joe Lakev, maybe he even has said this outright. He does not want to be paying as much in luxury tax payments. It's ridiculous.

Yeah. So something needs to happen, right? And so which of these options that I laid out do you think makes the most sense to move away from, given the amount of money you're going to be spending and also the possible return? Because I think we would all agree, like, moving on from Jordan Poole makes the most sense. But you are selling on pool at the absolute rock bottom of his market. Like this would be a James Wiseman potential situation where you're basically asking a team to just take him off your hands, give us a rotation player.

The Warriors got Gary Payton back in that deal. And so I wonder if the Warriors would blanch at that in particular because it does feel like Joe Lakeup has to be convinced to give up on this two-track sort of timeline. And so, Rob, like, do any of these other make sense? sense to you? Is it Draymond considering how much of a constant locker room consternation? He just kicks up. Is it Clay finally being like, you know what? We love you, Clay. But given how much you make and how much you're producing, this no longer aligns. And we got to do something here. So like, so like what is the best of the bad options on the table? The best of the bad options is trading Clay Thompson. I just, I literally don't think it will ever happen until he's ready to go. He's, he's, he's

too much of an institution with that franchise, right? Like the guys who get statues, you don't trade them until they're ready. It becomes a more collaborative process in most cases. So I would be shocked that that happens. I know Dremont has his limitations. We saw that guy in the playoffs to be just absolutely crucial to everything that they were trying to do on both sides of the ball. I'm not ready to give that up if I'm the Warriors personally.

So I'm staying away from some of those options. Again, provided that we can eventually bring him back. at a realistic number because Draymond may want the world, in which case you have to make some hard concessions. But to me, Stefan Dremont are the core of the team. And if you can keep that core intact and you can retool some of the other pieces, it makes sense. But again, just on it like a human institutional level,

Clay Thompson is not the kind of player who gets traded. So I would expect anything other than that to happen. But, man, it just feels like they would have been in a better place if they had, you know, re-signed Gary Payton and then traded James Wiseman for something else additive. right? Like if they had even done some things like that, we may not be talking about them as a team that just got eliminated. Yeah, I think order of business one is to get Clay to sign an extension that's like makes sense. No, Clay sometimes I'm not paying you 30. There was a report out there that he would like to get the max.

Like, sir, I would like to date Rihanna. It's not going to happen. Okay? Like, you're done. Okay. You got to take a deal in the Jordan pool range. Or less, you're like eight years older than this dude. How can we justify paying you just as much as Jordan Poole when you're getting worse? And theoretically, anyway, he's getting better. I think that should be order of business number one. And for me, I'm getting rid of Jordan Poole. It's like he's so far from being good.

Like, he's not like just on the cusp. It's not like Maxie, what we watch Maxie doing the playoffs. We're like, yo, he's on the cusp of something like really, important and integral to this team. No, Jordan Poole is not on the cusp of goodness. He is just terrible. He's just horrible. Get him out of here.

To clarify, Justin, was trading Jordan Poole one of the bad options we're considering? It is, but I think the downside of that is you're just selling absolutely low. You're basically getting rid of him like Wiseman. I think the difference is, at least it sounds like from where me and Waz are, I'm not sure that the high end of his trade value is that much higher than If you were to trade Jordan Poole before last season, I think his trade value would have been quite high. I think it would have been higher for sure, but do you think he can recapture that?

I know he's a young player. I don't ever want to write guys off. It's absolutely possible that he could turn things around. It's just some of the habits we saw. Just like straight up on court. Like, are you ready to defend this possession? We're just about as bad as you would find of any regular player in the NBA. and certainly any regular, like regular guy getting regular minutes in the playoffs.

A lot of teams are seeing that stuff. A lot of teams are rolling their eyes at the way Jordan Poole is playing and being very skeptical about the ultimately the kind of player he wants to be. I don't know that he's ultimately going to get to a point, at least as a member of the Warriors, where his trade value is dramatically higher than what it is right now. It's really tough, yeah, because if you want to have a future that extends beyond the Steph era,

to give up on yet another guy just like in the same season you gave up on Wiseman, man, it's just, it's really tough. But I do think this is probably the bigger picture dilemma there. It's that they really need to pick whether or not they want to double down on Steph Curry's Prime, one of the best goddamn players of our time, of our lives,

versus maybe doing something else. Ben Cruz, one of our producers chimes in that this is a very uplifting conversation. So maybe we just stopped there. But I don't know. This is going to be a fascinating offseason, not only for the Warriors, but a lot of these teams.

But first we got some Western Conference basketball happening on Wednesday. We'll be back for that. And then we'll be back on the weekend to follow. Thank you to Eduardo Campo on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back Wednesday. See you.