The Ringer NBA Show - Tatum’s 50-Point Performance and Best Young Cores in the Playoffs | Ringer NBA University

Episode Date: May 19, 2021

Kevin O’Connor, J. Kyle Mann, and Jonathan Tjarks start by discussing the Celtics clinching the 7-seed in the East led by Jayson Tatum’s 50-point game (2:30). Then they talk about Charlotte’s disappointing end to its season (11:10) and how the Warriors and Lakers match up in their play-in game (18:30). Next, they discuss which playoff team has the best young core (23:58) and share their biggest 2020 NBA draft oversights (56:04). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann, Jonathan Tjarks, and Kevin O’Connor Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listen up all you New York fans. Veteran New York sports talk host, John Dostromsky gives his unique take on all the big stories in the Big Apple and beyond, including guest conversations, gambling picks, and reactions from you, the listener. Check out New York, New York with John Dostromsky on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Basketball is very good. Welcome to Ringer NBA University. My name is Kevin O'Connor.

And joining us today is the Ringer's Jay Kyleman and Jonathan Charks. What's up, guys? Hey, man. Good to be back, obviously. Thanks for holding down the fore without me the last few months. As I'm sure most of our listeners know, I was diagnosed with cancer going through chemotherapy right now. And I just really wanted to thank everyone who, it was really overwhelming the amount of support and love. I just got not just from people I knew, but just like from like complete strangers.

It was just really kind of touching. I know my wife, it was great for me and my wife. People have been like sending us food, helping us out with stuff. It's just been awesome. So I just wanted to say that up top. It's just we really appreciate all the love and support that we've gotten in this process. Yeah, Charks, I've been reading your wife's blog at Caringbridge.org where they can find a whole bunch of information about your family situation now.

And I don't know, like my mom and I have been reading that. I check it every couple days to see if there's a new update. and I don't know, it's just been, it's been nice to read that and get updates. You seem to have the best possible support around you. And I'm just sending the best to you and Melissa and your whole family, man. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, and I don't know if you heard me what I said about, you know, Barrier said that he would have to convince, you know, their audience to listen to.

Oh, no, yeah, I heard that. Yeah, yeah, I was just like, yeah, man. I mean, we'll gladly talk about Chumotiki anytime you want. Just come on here. I miss talking about. Yeah, I like, Charks, Charks is willing to go as in the weeds as you want to go.

And that's like, he's just one of, you're one of my favorite people to talk basketball with. And, you know, I hope we can keep your energy level at a point where you, you can keep doing it. Yeah.

So glad to have you back, man. Thanks, man. I don't know what my schedule is going to be, but I'll come in when I can. I've definitely missed talking hoops with you guys. It's a lot of stuff has happened. And then obviously things happened last night. It's fun to get back into it.

We're super happy to have you back on. today, Charks. We're going to be talking about the best young cores in the NBA playoffs, but first we do want to hit on those games that happened last night that you mentioned Charks. Tatum dropped 50 points. Celtics beat the Wizards to take the seventh seed, which means they're going to have a first round matchup against the two-seeded nets. And the Pacers beat the Hornets 144 to 117, which means Lamello's season is over, Charlotte's season is over. Gordon Hayward is not coming back in that Indiana and Washington will play on Thursday. Charks, from what we saw in last night's game after that Celtics wizard's game especially what stood up to me was

scottobrook saying tatum is going to be an mbp soon um what's your takeaway from what scott said and just that overall performance that we saw from tatum i mean he was obviously the best player i guess the whole night really i mean the first thing that jumped out is like washington's lack of size in the perimeter and they're playing they're playing ral netto as a starting three man against jason tatum it's just crazy you know and yeah if your best player is six 6 foot 8 and their best player is 6 foot 3. You're going to have the advantage, right? Off the top.

And I can see where Brooks is coming from. And I just think what's so exciting if you're a Celtics fan is just there's so much room for him to still get better. Like that's what stood out to me is I just think with Tatum it's all about passing. We know he can score whatever he wants. Like the scoring, and that's a pretty normal progression for young players. You come into the league. You want to score points.

But it's like if you want to make your teammates better, it's passing. And what I noticed in that game was like, I felt like he didn't always trust his teammates and possibly for good reason. The team's pretty thin right now. And there was a couple of plays where he gets to the rim. There's two or three guys. It's just like make the pass to the open shooter.

I just think as Boston gets more shooting around Tatum and he can increase his assist total, like that's what I'm going to watch for Boston for the next two, three years. I feel like as Tatum's assists go up, the whole team gets better. And then two is if he becomes more, if he can become more of a point four,

forward. Because that's the thing, right? If you want to win the MVP, you got to pass, score and pass. Scoring's not enough anymore to be like the best player. You've got to sit your teammates up too. And I think for Boston, obviously is the down year, but what I'll be watching for them going forward is like, if he can get to like six assists a game, seven assists a game, I think that changes the whole lineup, the look of the Celtics. Yeah, if he can get into that five, six, you know, goodness seven range of assists. And I think you're right. Like the game has evolved from, I think a lot of that has to do with the way that, you know, the rules, police, you know, defensive concepts. Like, I think in the past, in the ISO area, you could kind of get away

with, you know, volume shooting. I mean, but I don't, some of these things are eternally true. Like, the best players could score and flip their gravity and pass the ball. But I think what's interesting for Tatum is just that I think we've had this cycle where the joke got so saturated that we stopped. We were like, it's cliche to talk about his age. I'm going to come into double, circle back here and talk about his age. Guys, he's 22. I mean, it's like, it's really absurd. Now, I was thinking earlier while you were saying all that, like,

can you think of like the shot making polish and talent at 22 at that size? Man, I can't really remember. I'm trying to, it's a very short list of guys at 22 that could dominate a game with shot making of that difficulty. I mean, Kobe comes to mind. there's there's it's it's it's a short list what do you think about that i mean it's amazing to see the way he's added layers to his game every single season of his life you know going back to high school and for him at our only 22 years old you know this season he turned 23 in march um to be doing

this it's rare like i i can't i'm not as great you know off the top of my dome with history um as you might be kyle but i can't think of anybody really with his frame in size and the broad shoulders that he has at his age. I mean, it's partially the physical aspect with him too. And that's what makes him so hard to defend as well, you know, is with that size and frame he has. And I do think, to your point, Sharks, with the playmaking ability, he's made progress there in the NBA since he was at Duke where sometimes, you know, it felt like he wasn't much of a passer. He's gotten way better in that area. And that, to me, you know, touches on what Scott Brooks was hidden there is that this is a guy who, as great as he is at age 22 now just turned 23.

There's still so much room for him to get better in terms of making guys better. That's the number one thing. When you, you know, listen to Celtics fans talk about the team this year, the young guys got better. Jalen Brown got way better. You know, even some of the younger guys, Robert Williams and some of the rookies, Peyton Pritchard, Aaron Neesmith, who will talk about later, got better. The number one thing you hear from Celtics fans is they want to see Tatum become somebody who makes everybody around him better all the time.

And I think to your point, Charks, that is the next area for him to develop. And it wouldn't shock me based off everything we've seen the first four seasons of his career if it happens over the next four. Well, it's funny. You just talked about guys, you remember with that size,

you can score that easily at that young age. There's a seven-foot alien who plays for Brooklyn. I was going to see in the next round. I mean, and that's the thing, right? Like, Tatum, if you look at the east, he's going to have Janus to go through, KD to go through. I think that's two where playmaking is going to be important because he can't just force the ball on KD and Yannas

so much bigger than him. He has to play a very well-rounded game to kind of make up for not being a seven-foot alien, basically. Yeah, and like with KD, also nobody like him. Yeah. Even when he did come in, I mean, like, people, you know, too skinny, couldn't lift. It was only what?

How much of KD weighs a rookie? He had never lifted, right? He couldn't lift the ball. They couldn't lift the bar one time, yeah. I couldn't lift the bar in, like, freshman conditioning and varsity, and I got, I got road. I don't know how you make it all the way to the- car can't lift the bar now, man. After COVID, I couldn't, I'm pretty sure.

Katie was 212 pounds as a rookie. That's insane. At seven feet, and now he weighs 240, you know? Dude, I mean, that's wild. Dude, well, you being like a Texas person, I don't know if you had had this happened, but have you all seen Katie in person, like, stood next to him before? Have you all, has that happened for you all? I think my scene, I've been close to enough to the game to see his size, never in person.

KOC, right before we met in person at the Barclays, I'll never forget this. I had never stood next to him in, there's some NBA players. I mean, like, I've stood next to like six, seven, six, eight guys before played against a few. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, we were standing there in the tunnel right before I met KOC, I'll never forget this. And Katie just casually walked by, by himself, just in like, you know, just in, like, you know, joggers and like at leisure i was just like paralyzed by how like i was just really struck by how huge he is like uh just that's just a little anecdote there but i mean in terms of uh yeah it's

it's interesting to me one last thing on tatum is that like you can kind of see a lot of like the footwork polish there's like overlap between him and beale like like tatum is almost just like a six eight version of beale in some ways like and i guess it makes sense because you know they've known each other forever i'm sure they borrowed and given each other stuff and then they work out with the same guy um all that stuff it's interesting to me and kyle that uh meeting in york we went ahead that great dinner at thursday kitchen the korean restaurant uh i believe it was near the village something like that was really really delicious great food there yeah when kevin didn't recognize the people from stranger things that was yeah that's right yeah we saw which was the

The whole cast or like one of the two stars? No, it was the girl, Jonathan, and I forget the other girl's name, the two, the older characters. Well, they're not quite as big a deal, so I guess I get that. Like, if you know who Millie Brown was, that would be kind of worse. That would do that. Yeah, she wasn't there. I forget, I don't even know. I'm not good with faces, but.

KOC was like, I think they're famous. I was like, I'm online. I used to two avatars. Faces. I mean, it's kind of true that the digital world is really overcoming the real real world in some ways. I mean, look at your beautiful background, KSys, speaking of that.

Thank you. I got the war zone background. You're out here skiing right now. Is that what's going on? I'm in Verdansk. That was my Zoom background here. Charks looks like a World Series of poker guy right now. He's got the big jacket and the cool hat.

And then he's got his playing cards. He's just kind of fidgeting with. It's Charlie, 1989 NBA final set. I love it, Charks. And also last night, we did see Charlotte's season end in that big loss, 144 to 117, 2. the Indiana Pacers.

What's on your mind as we, you know, look back on this season that the Hornets had sharks? Well, I mean, what stood out to me, I mean, this game was obviously not really much to talk about. The one guy who played decently enough was Miles Bridges.

I think that's kind of been the underplayed story of this year is how much he's gotten better this season. I look at the Hornets going forward. I just feel like he's probably there, if you don't count Hayrick who he's so much older, of their young core, I would say Bridges is clearly

the number two best player. I mean, look at a guy 6-6-2-30, obviously know the dunks, but then he also can do, he has, this year he shot 50, 40, 86. And like, just the versatility he has. Like, there was a couple plays where he caught the ball in the dunker spot and just dunked on people. He used to be the pick and roll ball handler. Not that great at that yet, but the role man making four on three passes, getting out

running, rebounding. They had him guarding Malcolm Brogden. And I just feel like the next step for the Hornets is they've got to get more out of keep growing his game. Like him and Lamello had a great chemistry off the bench. I think my thought is like if you're Charlotte, I've got to make sure this guy plays a lot more next year. I got to start him.

It's kind of a rough positionally to get him on the floor. But I think he's gotten to the point now where he's so good, he's got to start. He's just that talent to the player. And he's still really young. Yeah, I think you made a good point about like the four on three thing is that like when you don't have spacing, you're just not going to be in as many four on threes and two, you know,

two on ones. etc. But it's like the thing that Charlotte did in the off season was add scoring playmaking punch. And I think that that really helped Miles a lot. So yeah, he's, his passing got a lot better this year. And it's kind of the thing. It's like the chicken egg thing. It's like did he get better because of the spacing improvements? I'm sure it's a little bit of both. But he's a young player with a lot of upside defensively too. I really like him on that side of the ball is his potential there. I read some stuff from, you know, on Twitter about last night's games not being really. And have fun to watch.

I mean, it's fun to watch Tatum drop 50, but like they weren't great, you know, competitive games, you know, and people, like,

criticize the playing tournament for that. And I, I feel like the playing tournament, first of all, we might get an epic game tonight with Lakers Warriors or with grizzly spurs.

We could. The playing tournament isn't just about like the games that we watch this week. It's about what happened the past two to three weeks, right? Like, that's what the benefit of the playing tournament was, is to make more regular season games exciting.

However, one thought that was on my mind this morning that I wanted to pass on to you guys was, you know, we saw the Clippers tank their last two games to avoid the Lakers in the first one, which was the smart thing to do, right? It was a smart thing to do to go from the three, four, three seed to the four seed to potentially avoid L.A. But I'm curious about this. Do you think that the NBA, the next thing that needs to change in terms of tournaments, in terms of seating, is that if you allow the top four seats in each conference to draft their first round opponent, do you think in that case you could have a situation in which even all the top teams are trying to win all these games at the end of the regular season so they can draft their opponent instead of just having it chosen for them? Like, is that the next step, Kyle? man that would be really funny there's there's been discussion about this with uh with with with with the college tournament like that the number one seeds could pick you know what region they go in and pick their two seed etc there is that element that that that little like f u element that comes into it like oh you picked us

really okay like that's fun that's fun i i think it's funny like i was watching a chris paul interview about like it's really just a get him get them early get them later question like and i agree with what a lot of people have said with the clippers where it's like, it probably makes more sense to get them early. I don't know if like the clippers, and there is this inevitable thing of like judging your season on how far you go

that is inescapable. Like, you know, you're going to feel a lot better whether, no matter what your path is, you're going to feel better and you're going to be reductive about it years later where you say we were a Western Conference finals team, whereas, you know, the path might have been different if you had like a harder. I know that happened to the Rockets a few years

ago where they were like in the the bubble of death, whatever, that little cluster of team was. They played the Warriors in the second round instead of the... That's what it was. That's what it was. I think that'd be pretty funny. Charx, what do you think? You want to guess, you probably can figure this out.

How many times the Clippers have made the conference finals in the history of franchise? I would say zero. Yeah. So to me, I get it, man. I get get them early, but also conference finals, if not only 40, 50 years. It's worth doing. And I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I get it.

And I guess I can see the appeal of like picking seeds, but I also feel like the lower seeds have a disadvantage anyways, right? So it's hard to even further disadvantage the lower seats in these setups by making them get the worst matchups. Definitely. That's the downside of doing it. And the other part I've heard is that like even if you incentivize the top teams to win to get the selection, you know, of those teams. Some people look at that as like, well, you're giving. the lower seated teams more ammo and we don't want to give them that edge. I think that's silly.

I personally don't buy that reasoning at all. I would love that. I would want to see the pressure on those teams. I think it would make it so freaking fun. And plus, you know, like you'd have teams competing always to win. Like it always needs to be about winning, winning, winning as much as possible, you know, and that would make the end of the season better too. That was just the last thought I had about that. There's something off-puttingly weak about that, you know, like about the just avoid it. I don't know what it is. It's kind of that like Michael Jordan generation mentality of just like, no, never ever like be selective, just go through whoever you got. I had one thought on the tournament thing. Because I was thinking about like the playing tournament

on paper you think about professional basketball players at this level in a one game scenario. You think, oh man, anything could happen. But like this week I've kind of been thinking about it. I'm like, if you took players of this level and put them in a one game tournament like this, Is it necessarily true that there would be the variability that we see at the college level? And why, why not? You know, because like last night's game, when they kind of fizzled in terms of a product, you know, for a lot of different reasons. I thought the broadcasts were pretty, pretty tough, too. Mixing up Shemi Ojelay and Marcus Smart.

I just, the Marv thing changed me. Just for C-Web? Yeah. I'm not going to go there. But, yeah, I just like, I don't know. Do you think that, I guess just as a quick thought experiment, do you think that if we had a tournament like that, that upsets would be more or less likely?

I think they'd still be more likely. Any team can win on any given night. And to your point, you're saying like the best players will lock in completely. They'll have their teams locked in. However, you know, we also just see teams have just hot shooting nights. Like it can happen on any particular night.

And I think that's what's going to make some of these games tonight so interesting with lakers warriors especially the lakers have the advantage the lakers you know have defeated the warriors you know recently um they have the ability to smother stephen curry but what if andrew wiggins shoots six for nine from three and and molder hits four three i mean it can happen it can happen so i i think it increases the likelihood of those those crazy upsets Kyle do you have any thoughts on that sharks oh i think i'll be curious tonight like in terms of the one game scenario, like how much to Lakers game playing? Because you know, obviously, in the series you match up as the series goes on,

will they play Davis to five right away? Because to me, that's the obvious matchup for the Warriors, because they're going to be downsizing. But then you have your three centers. You go away from Drummond, the first day of the playoffs. That's tough also. So that'll be something to watch in that game tonight in terms of the one game versus the series. Yeah, for sure.

People talk about the step. I know we're the young. I've said this a hundred times, but people always talk about Steph, like he's like a pound the ball in the ball. and like you got to make him get rid of it type and that's that is the genius of step curry is that like that's not going to be what he's going to do it's like he's so willing to get rid of it early and get it back that's why he's so maddening to defend so i don't know he if you want to talk about like volatility of outcome in a given scenario step curry is the ultimate

weapon in that sense i think charks i think the last pod you on was before the james wiseman injury i'm curious about your thoughts on the warriors downsizing in the way in which that has positively impacted their play on both homes of the floor, because they've just been a dominant force. And I personally, I mean, I wouldn't pick them in a series against the Jazz or the Sons, but with the way they're playing, I feel like they can make that insanely competitive. What are your general thoughts in the Warriors right now and where they're at? I mean, the numbers are, I can't remember exactly what they are,

but they're pretty striking. If you look at Steph and Wiseman, when Steph is with Wiseman versus Off Wiseman, And it's just like he's a 19-year-old with limited game experience in basketball like Hugh who doesn't fit their system at all. He makes a lot of young guy mistakes on defense. He's not a ball mover or a shooter, really. So it's just tough to fit him into that system. That system requires such elite passing from your big, such a, like Looney and Draymond are all her field players. Weism's all athleticism right now.

So it's, I was not surprised that they got better when he went out. I think for the Warriors, what I'm curious about. is to see those non-Stef non-Dremont minutes. Right? So tonight's game, the Lakers can play LeBron by himself, and they can play Davis and Schroeder. And the Warriors can't really split up

Steph and Dremont. So that means they got to play, I don't know, Jordan Poole in those like eight minutes when Steph's not on the floor. And that's where you're not, we're missing Clay becomes so important to this team. Because, yes, Steph can get 45,

but LeBron ID can get 70, you know? Who's the second score going to be? It's going to be Wiggins or Pool, probably one of those two guys got to step up Jordan pool's been pretty good swaggy pool it has been but it's a whole different level tonight like the Hornets found out last night with the playoffs

like it's a whole different level it is a different game it is it's interesting too I'm when I was on I was on Chris Ryan's pod like a month ago I guess and we were just talking about how it is interesting how if you look at the on-off numbers like Steph and Draymond are basically I call it like an offensive binary

start like they basically just are just these this tightly wound together thing. It's like two halves of a hole. But yeah, it's tough for the Warriors. And we even saw that against the Grizzlies how perilous it can get for them, like when they have these stretches where it's like if those guys aren't, they're very up and down in terms of their production.

And it's hard when you can't, it's hard to be a good playoff team when you can't stagger your minutes like you were saying, Charks. Like the Warriors don't have that luxury. And that's really tough. One surprising stat that I just looked up, Charks. during this, you know, 19 game run in which, you know, since the Wiseman got injured that the Warriors have dominated, the Warriors outscore teams by 10.5 points per 100 possessions with Steph on the floor.

They're also outscoring teams by four points per 100 possessions when he's off the court. And like small sample, they face some bad teams along the way. I was going to say, where there's some big numbers in there, spiking that. Well, yeah. And like, yeah, exactly. It's also just the regular season. and the playoffs will be a totally different monster when LeBron might be on the court facing them. But I'm shot to see that. I'm shocked to see that.

And by the way, there are minus 0.2 when Draymond is off the court compared to a plus 12.6 when he was on the court during the stretch. Yeah, that's going to be a difficulty for the Warriors in this series in this game against the Lakers. And definitely in the series, if they were to advance against the Jazz or the Sons. I hope we could see that.

I hope both the Lakers and Warriors. advance. No offense to the grizzlies or spurs, but, uh, no, take offense. This is your ammo. There's no picking teams. So KOC just gave you all the ammo. Print out the dartboard and here it is folks. KOC hates it. He hates the riverwalk. He told me that off there. He hates small markets. He told me he hates Beale Street and chicken and Shay Serrano. Oh, wow. Well, we knew that. That's a given. Yeah, I knew that. Only because Shea hates me. So let's, uh, let's move on though to our main. topic today, and that's youth in the NBA playoffs. We have some very young teams that have a lot

of talent in both conferences here. You know, you can look at Phoenix in the West. Boston just clinched their spot in the east. You can look at them, even though they got Jalen Brown out right now. Kyle, I guess let's start off with you. I'm curious, you know, which teams, you know, or which teams do you think have the best young cores in the postseason that I'll allow for them to have, sustainable success in the years to come or even get even better in the years to come. Yeah, who's number one for you, Kyle? This is extremely tough. I'm not going to lie, because there are a lot of ways you can come at this. We were talking about it last night. I think if you have an MVP level player in

your young core, I feel that is, you can't get MVP level players. You just can't. I feel like that that with any other combination of players, man, I'm just really tempted to just put that number one. Like, I mean, but, but that also confines it to act like that's your whole team. I mean, players,

like, if you ask me what would I prefer to have, I think I'm going to take the MVP player and then just go from there. So I, I have to kind of put edge Luca to number one. What do you all think about that? Am I insane? And are we saying young players like under 25 years old?

Yeah. That means like Yokic wouldn't be included at age 26. Oh, I feel like he should be. I mean, we'll be on forever. And it isn't like he's getting old and any time. And that's the funny thing with Yokic is he has a game built to play until he's 40 if he wants to.

Well, yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, you all are moving the goalposts on me here. He's literally the MVP of the league this year, Kyle. I know. This season. Jesus. That's not what I, I'm talking young players.

Kevin's idea of who's young. I know. I'm just saying like 23. You know 25 is young, Kyle. 23-ish is what I was saying. Like, you know, anyway, Yokch has been around. But yeah, well, based on my parents. I had this has been a problem for me lately. My parameters have been off from everybody else's.

But yeah, I mean, Luca, Luke is so just like a generational player. I mean, it's interesting too, because some of these are really deep. Like Atlanta's young core is pretty deep. Who do you guys have number one? Tarks, Kyle mentioned Luca here as the sole reason, you know, for them being possibly the best young core of the current playoff teams. How about everybody else on that team? Like, we know how great Luca is, but what about Jalen Brunson, 24 years old, could six man in the year candidate, their rookies that they drafted, Josh Green, Tyrell Terry, Tyler Bay. What about the rest of this young Dallas Corps? What's your assessment of them? I think first off, what about them, right? If we're talking about in terms of the best young cores in the league, it's pretty, pretty big drop off from

Luca won to, I guess would KP be in this conversation still theoretically? He's what? 25. I mean, depends on based on you guys yeah it's just tough like you're 25 over here yeah you watch the math

you're 25 and the nuggets they have got they have yokitch and they have Jamal Murray Michael Porter and it's like

the level of talent when you go two and three versus the Mavs we can talk about KP it's been talking about to death at this point

Brunson after Brunson there is no young core like I like Josh cream but he's proven nothing in the NBA

he doesn't really count yet Perry is basically a G-League guy right now. It's just like they got a bunch of veterans around Luca. It just makes me very jealous to watch the Hawks or the Nuggets. And I'm like, man, there's just waves of young guys coming out with a star-level potential. And after Luke, I just don't see it in Dallas. What would happen if I took the claw machine, let's say the NBA was like, let's say this was like roller coaster tycoon and I could just reach down and pick up a player and move him over.

I don't know if you guys ever played that game. That's a reference. Oh, yeah. I used to play that back in the 2000s. That's a fun game. You could just drop people in random spots anyway. I used to put that in the Sims. Do you ever play any of those games,

Charks? I was more of a reader, actually. I'm just a big dolt. Played the Sims for hours upon hours. Now I play war zone all day. There's the marquee. I was just going to say, if you swap Luca and Trey, what would happen?

What would happen if you put Luca on that Hawks roster? Where would they be in the east? Oh, my gosh. It'd be like a one. seed. Yeah. You really think so. That team is stacked.

Yeah. The only thing is though, Luca, the only thing about Luca, though, is not to give the ball up, right? It's his chicken and the egg thing where Luca doesn't play with a ton of other ball handlers, so I guess to hold it a lot. But he's holding it all the time and it makes it hard for other guys. It's a Trey Young problem, too, to an extent also. I was thinking the other way as, like, if I can get one player to put with Luke,

that's what I'm thinking a lot about. I think the guy he needs is, like, a Devin Booker type. that's like that's the guy I think that would really make the Mavs because Booker what makes Booker so awesome is the ability to play on and off the ball in elite level so he can play with Luca get all his points cutting Luke comes to the bench and he runs the offense from himself what about Beal could the Mavs same thing that's the kind of guy I think the Mavs need is a guy like that of course very very very hard to get them but how do you think he would how do you think Luca would adapt if that player were brought into Dallas charts do you see it as an easy

transition for him to play more off ball? No? I don't think so. I don't think he's even willing to do it right now. That's what I'm saying yesterday guy can play off ball. So not even willing. Not even willing to do it. It'd be very tough for him to do it.

It's just tough, right? Because you haven't seen it yet, you know? Like Chris Stapps hasn't really been proven worthy of having the ball. That's why the guy wanted for Luca was like Bogdan Bogdanvich. I wouldn't mind Goran Dragich, an older European guy that he already has a relationship with, that he's experienced playing with. I can make it a little easy for him. You mentioned Bogdanovich.

He doesn't fit into the young player category at 28 years old, even though he feels like a super young player. Good God. As young as you feel, Kevin O'Connor. That's, everybody's young. Clint Capella also just turned 27 this week. Clint Capella feels like he's been in league forever for me, but it only just turned 27 years old.

It does. Because he came in so young and so raw and it's just gotten so much better. But you mentioned earlier, Kyle, this Atlanta roster. They are like I think Charcy said how stacked they are. O'Kongru 20, Reddish 21, Herder 22, Young 22, John Collins 23, DeAndre Hunter, 23 years old. Capella 27. This is a young team with a heck of a lot of talent.

Kyle, like with this Hawks roster, where do they stack up for you in terms of best young cores are in the playoffs? It's more of a death by more cut. I mean, like, I feel like if I'm, I was thinking about this kind of long term, like if I was the Hawks, which, which of these guys am I most interested in keeping long term? For me, I mean, Trey, obviously, I'm just wondering how nailed down do you think like Hurt or Reddish and a Kongwu are going to be like, you know, two years. Not very much. Yeah. Could be a piece of dangle and a trade for a proven star. I think hunters definitely separated himself with the other young guys in that list. For sure. And, you know, and so for me, that that kind of factors in where, is if you look at like some of the other teams that were, I think Memphis is in kind of a similar situation where I feel like the nailed downedness of some of those pieces is not maybe what we thought it would be a year ago.

I would say it still feels like it's like lacking one thing, you know? Like they're a good team that has moved significantly in the right direction. I'd be curious to see what that, what do you all think that thing is or do you even agree with me? I mean, they kind of look like a first, you know, if things go well, second round team, I don't, I don't see them going much further than that or just further than that period. But it's interesting what could be, I'm interested in what would be necessary to supplement this young core to like take it to the next step. And also some broad thoughts about young cores that I want to get to in a second.

Let's get into your broad thoughts. Yeah, get into them, Kyle. What's the value of a young core? I'm kind of like, I really, I'm doubling and circling this a lot thinking about it. It's like if you go back through the history of young cores, other than that, like, they're cost effective. Like you get a bunch of good players cheap for a while, like the marketability of them is really high. How many times in history has a young core hit the apex? It's like, OK, see, got close there for a little bit.

The only one, the only young core that I can think of, usually, usually it's just when it comes time to these guys are leveled up to play championship basketball, the contract stuff starts to become an issue. and you can't sustain it. Like the only young core that has hit the highest level is like the Bulls, like in the early 90s. I mean, yeah, Gold State, but they, I'm trying to think of what the ages were. Like in 2015, what Steph was, I mean, mid-20s, right, I think? They're homegrown, though. Right.

That's important. I think that's going to be put to the test a little bit this year, you know. Like we're seeing a homegrown core with the Sixers, with Joel Unbeed, and Ben Simmons and the West were seeing Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell and Devin Booker and DeAndre Aiton. And of course, you make some additions around the edges, Suns traded for Chris Paul, Sixers traded for Tobias Harris and other guys. But, you know, at its core, those are some young guys that were drafted by those teams. And then you have a team like the Brooklyn Nets that are mashed together. You know, they've only played under 10 games during the regular season.

And now they're going to potentially go all the way to the finals. You have the Lakers in the Western Conference, which was a young core. that turned into LeBron James and Anthony Davis. And to me, Kyle, that is the benefit of a great young core is flexibility. You can either keep those young players, sign up to big rookie max extensions, and try to compete for a championship with them, or you can flip those pieces for a proven star, like the Lakers did with Anthony Davis, like other teams have in history.

So to me, the value in the young core, you know, from a front office point of view, is that flexibility to do anything. Yeah, KOC, I like that point. I think that's where I came down on this Young Corps thing. I think you look at it, you've got to have at least two all-star, if not all-N-Ba players, the same team. We'll talk about being a deep contending team. And just getting that second guy, like, here the Mavericks.

They thought KP was going to be that guy. It's not looking that way. And just having the two, you look at the sons, right? They went from the eight seed last year with Booker, now the two-seat because they have two all-stars. So to me, like, love an MVP, but you got to have the MVP and one more All-Star. And if you don't have that, that's what the Young Corps, like you were saying, is like with the Hawks, at some point a trade is going to have to come for sure.

Like either someone develops into that All-Star, you trade for them. That's what the Hawks have, the Mavs don't have right now, I would say. And just to tie this back to our conversation we had about the Warriors, this is part of where the mistake was with James Wiseman. You know, like we'll see. how he pans out over the next 10 years. But for Golden State, I think a big component of their plan here was to package whoever they draft potentially with the draft pick that they might get from Minnesota.

I mean, that opportunity may not be there to make a trade. They may never come available. Bradley Beale might not be available. No star might be available for trade this off season. There might not be a deal that makes sense. But to be in a position to make that move or compete to make that move is of Great benefit to the organization. It might not be there because of the mistake

that was made for Wiseman, how he underwhelmed as a rookie. It doesn't, like, he might be great moving forward, but his value is diminished. But to have young players who are thriving and playing at a high level, even if they're not Keepers long term for the contractual reasons, Kyle, as you mentioned, I

still think that for the front offices, the benefit, like, you know, is significant to have a young core. Plus for fans, it's fun. It's fun to root for hope, you know? So you basically just have to have a broad mindset about it, whether or not it's like, you know, because like you getting an immediate return in terms of winning, like you draft some guys and they turn into these MVP level players. We don't necessarily know that at the time. Like with OKC,

they did that. They were like, bang, bang, bang, we got, we have these level players, but even they ran into it. So I guess, I guess you're right. Yeah, having, having a long term, having a long term kind of mindset. I guess the Laker, go ahead, go ahead, Chuck. I was going to say, I think the long term thing is key because like we were going to do exercise. where he picked rookies in these playoff teams, but it's just hard to play rookies on playoff teams, right? And with the young core idea is like, you give these guys time to grow in situations where, like, Wiseman's net rating shouldn't matter that much as a rookie.

He's a number two pick, except he's playing with an MVP at 31, 32, so now it matters a lot, right? So if you're a young guy and you can't play off the ball, your development's going to be likely stymied by being on a playoff team. Whereas you go to a quote-unquote young core team, you can grow together. And your first year or two doesn't really matter. I think the other benefit touches on the New York Knicks here. They don't have the best young core.

They don't have the best young core. Let's put Julius Randall aside at age 26 right now. He's young. But for the sake of conversation, the under 25 year old guys, Obie Topping, Mitchell Robinson, Frank Milikina, my guy, Emmanuel quickly. I love it. Stick with it.

Kevin Knox and RJ Barrett still super young. is the youngest guy on the Knicks. I think if you can rent a car, you're not in this conversation. That's my opinion. I see, see, I disagree.

I feel like, I feel like five years out as far as you can go. So if you're going to be elite in five years still realistically, I think you're part of it. Like to me, Randall's part of the young war. Because he's your franchise guy for the next five years. So is Yokic.

So is indeed and Simmons. I'm not fighting you guys on this anymore. It's whatever. No, stand your grounds. Stand your grounds. Well, whether Randall's in and

or not, one benefit of having a nice young core that's competitive and shows promise is simply that. It's like, it can change perception of your organization. Like if the Knicks, I've said, I said this on New York, New York this week when I went on and I said, even if the Knicks didn't make the playing tournament, this season could have been a success for them because of the development of the young guys and how much promise Randall showed, how good RJ Barrett looked, Emmanuel quickly coming off the bench and being a spark plug, just simply having good young players who are competitive can make your organization look competent

and suddenly look like a free agent destination. So I mean, I think the benefits aren't always direct, you know, in terms of competing for championships, but it can at least lead to the perception that can lead to moves or trades or opportunities that can put you in a position to do that. And for the Knicks, that's going to be really the next step. I mean, with their youth right now, they're clearly, you know, they could win a first round series against the Hawks.

What's the next step for them to be more than just a fun playoff team? Like, what's next for the next? What's missing there? I got, the guy I've been thinking about a lot for free agency coming up. And I think his reputation around the league is still catching up for some fans is Damar de Rosen. He's like one of the only all sort of playable who'll be free this summer. And he's basically playing like a point guard in San Antonio. I feel like if you could sign De Rosen to the Knicks

and the way Julius can shoot now, the way RJ is shooting now, plug the Rosen at point guard. You have a huge team. Protect them on defense. And now you have two legit all-stars. I'm intrigued. I have intrigued.

I like that. It's 100%. The player type that we are describing an interchangeable wing who can run, pick and roll, and create, who can hit open threes, who can defend.

That is one of the most valuable player types that you can get. And I think it's kind of, we'll carry over to some of the draft conversation. I think that we're going to have. I think De Rosen is an over the shoulder bullseye. More dark metaphors for me. I don't know why that keeps going. But I think that he is like exactly.

And he doesn't get enough credit for his growth in that way. How much he's changed his game for sure. He is a template for other players who come into the league with those challenges. And he's just quietly gotten better year after year. I think that that's another thing on the Knicks too is that you have Mitchell Robinson and just kind of sitting over there quietly as this asset that hasn't on a, you know, a cost effective one too that hasn't been a part of this thing. And it's like, my opinion on on their young core, even in the last like nine months, like if you, if you just said like

Barrett quickly, Mitchell Robinson has like changed dramatically. And I think if you put, I don't know what you, what you would have to move around to bring in a DeRosen, you know, money wise. What's their salary? What's a cat to have space? So they're going to be, yeah, they could just sign him out right the summer. Yeah. So that would be, I think that would help a whole lot. Yeah, that'd be, that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like on the surface, people would see, like, so let's just say De Roeson went to the Knicks. People would laugh at it and say, oh, DeMor de Rosen, DeMor de Rosen. But the way he's evolved as a playmaker, the skills don't overlap. I think the past version of DeMard de Rosen, you'd see an overlap in terms of what each player does. But the playmaker that he's evolved into his last year with Toronto, and especially ever since he got to the Spurs.

I mean, that's been remarkable. I think also statistically, he has been one of, if not the league's most efficient isolation shot creator, both as a score and passing out of those situations. He has been a dominant force in San Antonio.

And it's just gone overlooked because it's the Spurs. They're not on national TV, not paying a lot of attention to them, but DeRosen has turned himself into a player. And it's one of the reasons why I believe, Steve San Antonio wasn't super

eager to move him. Because they're fine with keeping him too as part of an older guy to help facilitate their young, you know, developing core too. De Rosen is, yeah, I mean, he's 84th percentile in pick and roll this year. So 1.02 PPP. And in isolation, he's in

the 96 percentile. I mean, if you can get a player who can do those two things and defend, yeah, that's pretty. Well, I don't know about the defense part still never really got there. But on the Knicks, you can leverage the skills. the rest of your roster. And that's the thing, too, about the Nix. Like, who's their shooting coach?

He needs some publicity. Like, what the heck? It's probably with Randall and Barrett. Yeah. It's probably Kenny Payne. I'd say. Would Randall and Barrett, like one of the shooters this year has been unbelievable.

I mean, I'm still shocked they both shoot so well. That's something you don't see hardly ever. Can we bring that guy to the Sixers so he can help out Ben Simmons and Matisse Thibel because the Philadelphia 76ers also have an unbelievable young core, even factoring out, Joel and Bidu's 27 years old. now, Thibel at 24, Ben Simmons at 24, Shake Milton at 24, Texas guy, Charks,

Corkma, As a major, Tyrese, Paul Reed, they have a number of quality young players, obviously Simmons and Thibel being higher profile ones, but this Sixers core goes a little deeper than just the primary names that we talk about on a day-to-day basis. It definitely does. What do you guys think the template is for Maxie to transition

from this sort of second unit come in and score because it seems like a transition needs to happen for him. You see this a lot with scoring players. We alluded to it earlier with Tatum. We talked about it. It's a likely path for score first players who come into the NBA. You need to learn how to share. Is there a template for a player at the highest level for Maxi to follow

for him to level up to? Like what is his actual ceiling? What do you all think? It's got to be Kyle Lari, right, Charks? Interesting. I mean, I think first off, he needs to be more of an off the ball player, right? It's a little different for him because they've already got a one in Philly. I got Bet Simmons and Embeded. Max, he still needs a ball on his hands.

If he wants to level up, he's got to become a good spot-up shooter. I'm looking at the numbers. He shot 30% from three on like 1.7 attempts, right? It's hard to play with Simmons and Embed it. That's, I think, for him, the first thing, for a younger guy in a smaller role, it's three-point shooting. You've got to have that to spread the floor for your stars. and then you grow your game from there. And the shooting is going to maximize the things,

maximize the things that he does really well. Oh, that was good. That was good. Thank you. No, I mean, his middle game has always been his thing. So the better shooter he becomes just going to force those things to level up to. Yeah, and Kyle, I kind of think the middle game means like it's more luck to become a good shooter, right? I feel like that says he has the ability.

He has the touch to expand his range. It's pretty clear to me with what the six or. have done or tried to do in the past year since Saral Mori took over is that they are looking for that shot creator, the more traditional shot creator on the perimeter. They draft Tyrese Maxie. They go hard trying to trade Ben Simmons for James Hardin. It doesn't work out.

They're in conversations for Kyle Lari. It doesn't work out. And then they get George Hill. A veteran, you know, you'd love to see Maxie grow into a role like that someday. But it's very apparent to me that regardless of, you know, how, you know, your subjective feelings might be about Ben Simmons and that core and what they can do together. It's, it's apparent that that's what they want. And with Maxie, will he grow into that over the next four to five years, assuming you keep Ben Simmons with Joe Alambide over this,

you know, next run here? Maxie, can he grow into that? Like, Kyle, you mentioned what does he need to do? Do you see that potential for him in the short term to become what they need from a young perimeter and shot creator. Can't well, I mean, you alluded to it. Chark said about the touch. Is it a reflection of like the shooting improving? I mean, he's, he's always kind of been treading this line of needing to just get over that hump and to become a dependable shooter. It was like, at Kentucky, we trusted him generally, but it wasn't like foolproof if he

was open for three. And then you level up again. It's within like basically a year's time. That, do I think that he can do it? for me, I'm less sure about the playmaking part of it than I am the shooting part of it. Like, I do think that he could become a good shooter. It might take some time. I mean, it might be something that goes beyond his rookie contract before he, like, fully materializes as a player in that sense.

But in terms of, like, you were talking about more, like filling out the roster, I was just thinking about it's just amazing how quickly and obvious. It's amazing how obvious their issues were and how quickly he addressed them. Like, have you all seen Mad Men? You'll watch that show? No, never watched it. A little bit. Okay. Well, there's a scene where they're decorating their house and Don Draper comes in the room for like 30 seconds.

And she's shown him this new couch. And he's like, what do you think with the layout of the room? And this is an interior decorator. He walks in for just a few seconds and he was like, move the couch here, move the lamp here. And the interior decorator stood there for a second. It was like, he's right. That's like exactly what happened with the Sixers. Mori walked in the room and he was just like, move the couch there, move the lamp there.

And I don't know. I mean, with Maxie, if it happens with the Sixers, if he can improve the, they're kind of doing it by committee here, too, because, you know, Seth Curry is kind of filling that role a little bit too. I don't know. I'm less confident about the playmaking than I am the scoring. He could end up becoming one of these great scores. My guess would be Maxie is helps the most on a trade. It would be my, like, it was going to be what Simmons and Maxie for Hardin, right? It was like the baseline of that trade.

It didn't happen. That'd be my suspicion. of like what ends up happening there. So we briefly mentioned the Nuggets and Passing earlier. Let's talk about them. Yeah, let's talk about them, Charks. They seem to be your number one. Yes, for sure.

Okay. I mean, you know, we talk about guys who don't seem that old. Aaron Gordon's 25. Yeah. It feels like he's been to league for like a decade, you know? He has. And he's your fourth, theoretically, he's your fourth best player. Yokic, Murray, Porter, Gordon.

I mean, obviously Murray's hurt right now, but I think going forward, this team has all the pieces. Like my big thing for the Nuggets is, I wonder how long they can keep it together more than anything. It feels kind of OKC-ish to me, whereas Porter keeps getting better and better. You see when Murray goes out, Porter takes the next step forward.

Can that be sustainable over a three, four-year window? I don't know. Charks, are you surprised Michael Porter, Jr. has been this great, this soon? No, I mean, obviously the health stuff aside. Like, you're six-foot-10 guy who could shoot as well as he can. I think the playing off the ball stuff isn't super impressive.

That's the thing that's really shocked me watching him is like he moved from an on-ball guy to someone who cuts and shoots and can score off other guys. Like that's so rare for a young player to have that in his bag already. He's in the perfect. We talked about this with Bill the other day.

Yeah, that like it's like, it's a perfect situation for him because he, his worst impulses weren't enabled, you know? It's kind of, that can really makes a huge difference when guys are drafted.

For me, the question is, I remember you and I talking about Murray, Murray and Porter that dynamic like a year ago, I guess, just like what that was going to be like. And it seemed more likely that Porter could get, I thought it was more likely that Porter could get moved. It's kind of like shifting. Do you think that that has shifted now to the point where like,

it's more likely that Murray could get moved for them to find a piece that fits? Or has there been shifting on that front? What do you all think? Or do they hang on to them? I think that you might hang on to both of them. Yeah. If you can, yeah, for sure. I mean, I mean, I guess you could, like, if assuming Murray would want to resign with this next contract is up, you'll have the restricted rights to Michael Porter Jr.

So they could keep it together if they want to stay. We're talking about hypotheticals here. You got to pay all these guys. Denver's never really paid the luxury tax. This team is about to get really expensive because they're really, really good. To me, the number one by a mile on these young core rankings, I think. Who would be next up in your core rankings, sharks? Is there a team that's clearly number two or is it going to blitzing?

ended together. I was looking at more over the next five. I guess Philly, if you don't count Embed, but I would still put Philly at two with Embed and Simmons, and the ability to move one of those guys down the road. Kyle, we haven't mentioned two teams here. I mentioned them when I introed this whole topic.

Phoenix and Boston. Yeah. With Phoenix guys under 25 years old, so this isn't counting Cameron Johnson. McKell Burgess is 24. Devin Booker's 24. DeAndre 8 in this 22. And then you have Tycheon, Alexander,

and Jaylon, Speth, who are both 22 and 21 respects. respectively for the Celtics under 25 years old. Jalen Brown is still only 24 years old. Time Lord. Robert Williams is 23. Tatum is 23. Peyton Pritchard and Aaron Neesmith, both rookies under 25 years old. Grant Williams is 22.

Romeo Lake, Langford is 21. Obviously, Tatum and Brown being the key guys for Boston, Aiton and Booker being the key guys for Phoenix. To me, I look at those two teams, if you're counting out the Yokage from Denver, to me, like, I look at those two teams and have. have them on top of my list because we'd said it earlier the hardest thing to find is that second guy there isn't that second guy for the dallas mavericks boston has two of them and tatem and brown and phoenix has one of them in booker and aton is turning himself into a really nice two-way

player uh so i feel like i'd have bright future sons k o c o'c bring you back yes right now uh yeah we're gonna do that if they make the finals we'll do it i'll fly to la we'll do it I mean, yeah, it's, that's an interesting thing. Yeah, I think what struck me watching Boston last night was just how many like of those like mid to late first round dudes that they just kind of have that you're unsure about like, you know, Langford was out there. And then I think, I think I saw Ovalier for a little bit. But and then Pritchard. But if you think about the top, it's like what I rather have, what I rather have Tatum, or Tatum Brown and, and, um, Who would be the third guy there? Time Lord. For sure. Versus, you know, Booker Bridge is Aiton.

That's tough. Who would win that three-on-three game would be an interesting question, too. I don't know. If we did the Feeba style, I'd go with Boston probably, but maybe. I don't know.

That's a good question. Well, and you think, too, it's like what we were talking about with Tatum earlier with the other young guys in Boston, if they had a Chris Paul on their team, they'd probably look a lot better too, just because they would have got to make them better,

especially like a knee-smith in a time ward would probably look better on a different team. And bringing that leadership, Charks, is there a rookie in this year's playoffs that you think has the highest likelihood of impacting a game or series or potentially swinging things for a roster? I don't know about like highest impact, but I think Neesmith is a guy. He was impressive in that playing game to me. I feel like he could be an important part of their future because it gives them that pure

spot-up shooter to play off Tatum and Brown. and he also can move pretty well. He has decent size. So it's just a combination. I think he's a guy I would watch a lot for Boston going forward as a potential really important piece for that team. I mean, I don't know how much slim packed against the Nets. Like, they're about to go up against a Death Star in this next round.

But I think he's a key guy for their future. How about you, Kyle? Is there anybody who comes to mind? I wanted to make a comment really quick, and we don't have to circle back for a long time. But I wanted to comment on Josh Green really quick that like he's an interesting case for me because and maybe I'm somebody who's just been on Josh Green Island for quite some time. There's really nobody else with me on this island other

than I'm a big Josh Green guy, but Brian. Brian Schroeder from draft Twitter. He and I have had a condo there for a while. But I praised that pick at the time, you know, I think it's just really tough when you spoke to it. It's that like when you're playing cold and you come out and if you watch a lot, I was kind of just going back through a lot of his recent game tape last night. And it's like, he's just off ball standing a lot. And that's a, it's really hard to have an impact if you're his type of player. And I was thinking about a transition that I think that he could make and maybe should make to up his value. He doesn't have like super long arms.

I don't think of him as like a springy, lanky guy who can like mirror. How long are his arms? Are they super long? Okay. Okay. Well, okay, that's pretty long. But I don't think of him as what I'm trying to say is, I see him as somebody that could maybe benefit from like beefing up in that,

brace yourself KOC, that Bruce Brown mold where he gets a little bit more of a solid. Because he is the shoulders for it. I think that he could beef up and become the kind of guy that like, you know, tags rollers and kind of does like he can switch and just stifle downhill movement on the defensive end of the ball and then hit open threes. Because I don't see him more as like the other. type like the the wiry uh stay with like perimeter you know big bigger scores type of guy like he's he's

he's more the p j tucker type you know p j tucker kind of popularized that role i think just the beefy wing who can hit open threes type of thing well let's um let's talk about the 2020 draft here it kind of pivot from there to this because with the 2020 draft we had some hits we had some misses and some guys it's too early to tell and i think with josh green he's one of those types, Kyle, where his potential, he hasn't had an opportunity. He's still too young and wrong right now in Dallas, but he can still turn into the type of player that you're imagining. It be a valuable player for the Mavericks.

It might not make an impact now in this player off run, but I still like Josh Green long term too. But with that said, you know, a whole year to evaluate these young players gives us a whole lot more intel about what we missed and what we hit. So let's discuss some of our biggest oversights from the 2020 NBA drafts. do either of you guys want to start off with what number one thing that you feel like you might have overlooked in 2020? I'll go. I just think kind of going off what Kyle was saying about Josh Green is that he just got to have a confident three-point shot.

Didn't help plan for Rick Carlisle at all with that stuff. But I just look at like if a young guy doesn't come in as a confident shooter, it's so hard, especially outside of the lottery to get into that rotation. I mean, I think that's something I always recognized, but it just got beat home for me even more this year. You look at the guys with outperform their draft slots early.

Emmanuel quickly. Desmond Bain. Those are two guys I wasn't too high on, but it's like those guys are such good shooters. It kind of makes the rest of their skill set. It just makes it work. And like they can build on that

from there. For me, I'm like, I think probably this year, if I, it's like, I think Josh Green could be a good shooter in time. He has that some potential. But if I know you can be a great shooter,

I got to move you up. I actually after like number 10, 12, 13 is like, those guys who are great shooters right away are going to have value right away. They're going to have long careers in the league. And I think I had like quickly in vain the 30s. And that was just way too low because I was like, oh, they're kind of shooting specialists.

But who cares, you know? The way the league is now that's so important. For me, I had two things. The first thing is that like, I think that like past bias in like the late high school and college year, I think that I have let that swing me. in terms and they're kind of like off the court kind of quasi role acceptance type type things like I did this with RJ I've lived to regret it I got really mad at RJ

towards the end of high school and then at Duke and it made me like really kind of put him in a hole that was probably a little unfair I but in terms of this was I was joking with you all there are two types there's the like I was wrong I missed this and there was also I was right I should have stuck to my guns for me like Jade McDaniel Daniels was a guy that I saw a lot of that stuff. I remember talking about with you guys, and I still didn't pull the trigger. And for me, I guess, for me, he's a combination of both of those. It's like I was a little, like, put off by some of the things that I saw at Federal Way.

And then at Washington, and I was like, I just don't know. And then, like, the shift happened. And I was, I've just gone over, you know, to the moon, like, in terms of my idea of his potential. There's a guy like that in this upcoming draft that I'm a little shaky on. and that's Jalen Green, who I've kind of hesitated to get on board. I'm not sure where I'm going to land with that. But yeah, and for me also, real quick one, the other one is I'm way, way less likely to use a first rounder on a springy disruptive four who has limited kind of ball skills. Because I feel like those cakes take a little longer to bake.

For me in this draft, that guy would be like Isaiah Jackson. I'd be a little hesitant, and I love Isaiah Jackson. I don't know, like Montres Harrell players, even Nerlands took a little while for him to kind of round into what he is now. With Jalen Green, Kyle, do you still consider him a top three for prospect? Or are you even iffy on that a bit? No, I think he's in that range. I just think that he has a lot of, but I guess there's really nowhere for you go because

I wouldn't, there's no scenario where I'd put him ahead of those three guys. You could argue, you could argue Suggs Green. I think people will. I mean, but. That will be one of the big arguments of this draft. Could you argue Kaminga over Green? Could I? I mean, I think I'm a little higher on Green than Kaminga.

I mean, like I think Green's upside is high, but it's also, I don't want to launch into like a full-blown Jalen Green discussion. But, I mean, he has star upside. It's just he also has like great score who hovers in that like, I don't know. We've talked about some, there are some comps that aren't so great about. him like he and he could hover in that like that zach levine is the comp that people say a lot on him where it could take some time um i don't know what what do you all think yeah i mean he's somebody that could take some time and that's a challenge um is projecting five six seven years into the future it's so hard to do guys get better out of nowhere we talked about this earlier in the pod with julius

randall like to age 26 years old becoming a good shooter becoming a great defensive player becoming a better playmaker. Like some development is not linear. And for me, I think in last year's draft, I overrated some distant potential, like the idea of what a guy could be rather than what they are today and projecting short term.

Like with Killian Hayes having him rank number one, that was a silly thing to do. I mean, I'd still love Killian Hayes as a prospect. I'd still have her ranked top five, top six, in a redraft today. However, Lamello Ball and Anthony Edwards are very clearly better at this younger stage of their career. And it's much easier to project them being successful

over the next three to four years and beyond because of that. So with Hayes, a lot of it is more of a distant theoretical projection of what he could be more so than what's rooted in reality. The other side of that is that the reality of the league today is that unless you are a superstar level big, the odds are that you're a replaceable player. and with James Wiseman, I had him, I think, ranked 7th or 8th,

which is not high by any means. But a big part of me wishes I had him ranked even lower than that just because of the sheer fact of what the value of Biggs is. Like, I should not have had Tyrese Halliburton ranked behind James Wiseman. It was a mistake. And I think accepting and embracing just where the league is today and what it could become, Wiseman is just not the player that should have been drafted.

that highly. And I'm sure Golden State feels that way more than anybody else. But he could turn into a good player in the long term. But at this point in the draft, I'm not so sure that that was the wise thing to do on my end with my rankings. Was not wise, man. Any other lasting thoughts on the 2020 draft, you guys? Yeah, another guy really quick. Another guy in that like four role, the springy, you know, disruptive four role is Greg Brand. Greg Brown and Isaiah Jackson, both of those guys fit that role for me.

I would hesitate to, I don't know, I'm not in the same place that I was in the past. It's, I would, no, know that I'd have the stomach to do it. Charks, Greg Brown, first round pick. We'll talk about Kai Jones next time. That's the guy we got to talk about. I'm a big Jones fan. And that next time will be on locker room because for the NBA playoffs, the Ringer NBA University show that we've been doing since January.

It's been awesome doing this, but we will not be recording pods on the ringer NBA show feed during the playoffs. We'll be doing live shows on the locker room app to add a to be determined schedule. It might be different week to week. It might be the same day. We're not totally sure yet, but we'll announce that on our own respective Twitter feeds and on any at ringer feed on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. You'll be able to get that news there. But yeah, guys, this show's been a heck of a lot of fun doing this with you every other Wednesday during this NBA season. I look forward to talking some draft. and some playoffs on locker room with you guys.

There's nothing respective about or respectable about my Twitter feed, but go ahead. Yes, I've enjoyed the show a lot too. Yeah, locker room is, it's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah, the good part on locker room is we're going to be able to interact with people live while recording, take questions and all that. So I'm pumped for it. I think it'll be a good time. Roast KOC for the things he hasn't seen or like the things he doesn't do, like chew gum or, you know.

I'm not a soda fan either for that matter. Well, that's good. I mean, soda is really not good at all. So I'm with you on that. But anyway. Hopefully I don't have any soda sponsors for the show. I have to get someone else to do the read. Yeah, I maybe shouldn't have said that.

KOSC's got too many to keep track of, you know, when you're a big media guy like that. Yeah, and I love doing it. I'm glad I'd come back for the last one of the season. It's really fun to do this stuff. Appreciate it. Charks, it was awesome having you on today, man. It was. Yeah, I bounced out of bed this morning, basically, because I was like, all right, Charks is

back, yeah. Takes, takes, takes. Let's do it. Well, we're looking forward to the next show at a to be determined date on locker room. We'll let you guys know on our Twitter feeds and at Ringer. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for producing today's episode of Ringer and Bia University and for producing all season long. And thank you everybody for listening. Please be sure to subscribe to the Ringer NBA show wherever you get your podcast feeds and let a friend know about it if you love the show. Thank you again. Have a good rest of your day. Basketball is very good.