The Ringer NBA Show - Team Awards Picks: All-NBA, All-Defensive, All-Rookie | Group Chat

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Justin, Rob and Wos are here to usher in awards season, starting with the team awards. The guys make their selections for the All-NBA (5:40), All-Defensive (54:30), and All-Rookie teams (1:07:30). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ronak Nair Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states, gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Ferrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, fake wise. I think I speak for everyone when I say, let's go Husky! Sarah Strong, my new best friend, we did it. A lot of extra pepping your step this morning.

I noticed that Yukon had immediately because Justin doesn't wear hats and I look up every year. Exactly. They keep in titles this time. It's true. A year so I got to represent. I got to ask, so with the timber wolves you know, you get some like awo howling

going. Do Huskies all, I mean Huskies the animal, obviously howl. But do Husky's fans howl? Is that a thing? No howls. I don't remember those. There's a real missed opportunity. You see O-N-N sort of like spelling out Yukon-U-Con, Yukon, which is the typical chant that we do at games. Okay.

No, nothing like that. Rob, I don't know if you've ever been to Connecticut, but it's not a Howley vibe up there. No, no. Not in all. We're not as feral as perhaps the Minnesotans have it. And especially because a lot of the Yukon women's fans tend to be older folks. Like my parents, die-hard Yukon fans for both.

teams, but more so for the women, just because they're used to steamroll and everything. I guess it's civic pride and something that's just so excellent that you got to get behind, but they're daily watchers of this. I pop in for the title game and maybe the semifinals. I mean, you're showing up on Christmas and Easter basically and calling yourself a fan. How does it feel, though, Justin, to be part of an institution? You know, you are effectively like a Yankees fan or something like that. Like, how does it feel to be identified in that particular way? don't like it. I used to be in the scrappy underdog.

You know, that's how I feel on this podcast with you guys. And so I don't feel like being a top dog reflects like my true self. So I have to really ease into it. I mean, even put it on the hat during these times, I feel like, you know, did I,

did I earn it? I don't know. He's got a poster. He's got the essence of a Valparaiso is what he's saying. That's right. He's living the life of a blue blood. Well, congratulations, though, Justin. We're very happy for.

you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Sarah Strong, awesome. Pagebackers, also awesome. As he fud, if I got her name right, also awesome. So really good team. I can't wait to see some of those guys coming back next season. Gino Oriama, not so much. Awesome. His vibe just just rubs me the wrong way. Like, he started his press conference and he said, I got to say, in the 40 years since I've been doing this, I've never seen so many ways. covering our sport and I'm just so proud of it whenever somebody starts a sentence with

I gotta say you know they're full of shit So you don't like that even ally I mean look I love allies shit But Gino Riemma just strikes me as just a poser But whatever fascinating That's neither here nor there One of the most entrenched coaches In women's basketball poser

Poser Poser All right he makes it makes a mean pasta sauce I don't know if you guys have ever had Gino's ragu basically, but he makes it himself and they sell it around Connecticut. Sure. I'll take your word for it. How can you be mad at a pasta maker? I mean, are you using jarred pasta sauce? Yeah. I don't eat a lot of pasta because I can't afford the extra carbs. What are you making

it yourself? Of course. What are you talking about? You just throw a freaking jar of ragu in the pot and just call it a day? You really are an animal. You're more feral than you described. Wait, what's the difference between like a store brand like the Rouse or whatever versus Rios? Yeah, Rios versus what you're talking about. You're like making it from Twitter. Yeah, you buy ingredients in the pot. You buy canned tomatoes.

This is America, man. Saute some onions and garlic store. I don't have time for that. I'm doing my all NBA ballots all weekend. I don't have to. Okay, that's fair. Why don't we pivot now to what we're going to do on this podcast? as opposed to the five minutes on women's basketball for whatever reason.

We're going to shop up our awards picks because that is the time of year that we are in. We're going to hand out some fake awards. Rob has an actual ballot. Was and I still waiting for that email from the NBA. What's going on, guys? I got my eye on you, Adam Silver. That's right. We could probably figure out your email address.

We won't send you an email, but just know that we could if we wanted to. We're going to do full awards on Thursday. We're going to do the team awards today, all NBA, all defense. and unfortunately all rookie, we're going to slot through on the back of this podcast. Let's start with AllMBA. And I think we have to start kind of big picture because this is the first year where I feel like

the restrictions put in, the games play, the minutes limits, have really affected who is going to be on my ballot. So just to remind people, 65 game limit for the awards. There's also a weird minutes cap, right, Rob? There is. Fans of the NBA may remember this coming in to play

last season with Dante D. Vincenzo's most improved player case where despite the fact that I think he played 81 games, he was somehow ineligible for award voting. The actual rule is this. You got to play 65 games in order to qualify for any of the major awards accepting the rookie awards. Those, as far as I know, do not have a minutes limit. Do not have a game's played limit.

Now, in order to play a game that counts as one of the 65, the player has to play 20 plus minutes in that game. And there's a slight grace in which the league allows you to games in which you've played 15 to 20 minutes, all of which is to say the bare minimum games, at least 63 games played with 20 plus minutes and two games played with at least 15 minutes. If you're over those thresholds, congratulations, you've solved the puzzle, you're awarded some kind of prize, in this case, a place on our fake ballot if you're good enough, but it's a mess. This whole thing is a mess.

And whose life is benefited by this? I don't know. Okay. In theory, the viewers, in order to force players, Kauai Leonard, load management guys, in order to try to play as many as possible, not probably try to work the fringes in order

to be eligible for awards but sit on a bunch of games. That's the theory, as I understand it, at least, but I didn't even know the difference between the 63 and the random two games that you get approved from. Why 63 versus 65, that arbitrary endpoint is the thing that I constantly struggle with. Well, they're all arbitrary endpoints. It's also not a coincidence that you're now looking at total games played for the season,

you're seeing a lot of stars with 66-ish games played, you know, just squeaking over the threshold of what they're allowed because of injuries and rest and random absences for other reasons. So I don't like that we're here. And if, yeah, if the point is to get players to play, you're going to see more of what you saw last season with Tyrese Halliburton, where he pushed himself to the point of maybe exacerbating an injury in order to hit some of those thresholds.

If the point is to make it easier for voters who don't have to weigh, oh, this guy played 40 games, that guy played 80 games, guess what? I'm coming through game logs to see who played 19 minutes in a game. Our lives are not improved in any material way. I don't think the players' lives are improved in any material way. And I don't know that the fans are being better served by these guys trying to tough it out to hit 65 games instead of, let's say, 59 games. I would like to see us get to 60 as the line of demarcation. Because 65, I feel like there are too many guys in the margin for error.

I think Jalen Brunson is this 65 or is it 63 guys? it's both. It's both. This is like my taxes at this point. I'm just checking columns. I got to go to form B to figure out form Z. So Jalen Brunson, for instance, he has 62 games played as we're recording this. He came back on Sunday.

I have to assume that wasn't a coincidence. He has four more games to play three more games in order to be eligible. Kevin Durant, another instance. I think we could talk about a little later on. He has four more games. to play four, correct? He also needs to play three games, I believe. Four to three. Yes. So if he doesn't suit up within the next two games, he's out.

And he's been out with an ankle injury for about a week at this point. This is around the target of time that he was supposed to come back. But the sons are also on the cusp of being formally eliminated from the play-in race. And so is Kevin Durant, who we know loves to hoop, just going to roll out there and play because he wants to play and maybe to qualify for awards? I don't know. Yeah. I would like to see a big push back just a little bit to get some of these guys that we're talking about in, because you're right. We're even in the vicinity of a guy like Durant having to force his way into a game and potentially like suffering longer term injury.

That's a problem. Yeah. So we'll get to Durant when we get there. So let's just start from the top. I have to assume that this is consensus in the top five. Well, top four, I think five there's some room for conversation, no. Top five is consensus? I think so, but I assume you guys have in the top four, Yokic, Shea Gilders, Alexander, Janus, Jason Tatum, right?

Done, done, done, done. Yes. Can I just say, though? We should say, we're going to talk more about these guys when we circle back to the MVP race for now. They're such easy inclusions for all NBA. I think their cases are pretty open and shut for this. I will just say, though, there is a player amidst this four who is averaging basically 31, 12, and 6. and he will not get a single first place MVP vote.

And because he doesn't deserve one. He doesn't, but it's just so wild where we are in terms of the MVP conversation. It feels like there are just so many good choices that a guy who in any other year, like five years ago, would have been the easy choice is not going to get a single first-paced ballot. That's insane. So similar. And we're talking about Janus in case the listener doesn't know. He's having a career year.

Like he's got like a 30 P.E. It's like insane, all of his stats. Jason Tatum, to my mind, has never been better. It's obviously so. And again, he's not going to get a sniff of first place MVP love. And that's just the nature of what Chey Gildjus Alexander and what Nicola Yocch have done this year. What they put on the floor is just nothing short of spectacular.

Yep. So this fifth spot, I have Donovan Mitchell. Who do you guys? I do, too. I do, too. Yeah. Stefan Curry. Let's go.

Okay. It's just the last month and a half, man. Pretty much since the Jimmy trade, this guy has just had a different pep and a step. And he just looks incredible. Like this stretch of games where they're beating the Lakers, they're beating the, like a bunch of teams that are in front of a beating Memphis to like climb up the seating. And they're doing it on Steph Curry's back. It's just like, yo, this guy to me is clearly, you know, my all-MBA pick. Like, Donovan Mitchell, again, he's having a great season.

He's not better than Steph Curry. I just could not make that argument at all. So, yeah, Steph Curry is my first team. Well, I think we're getting into the gist of what we're actually debating here, which is, Justin, I don't want to speak for you. I'm not saying Donovan Mitchell is better than Steph Curry. I'm not prepared to make that argument. Do I think Donovan Mitchell has had a better and more impactful season than Steph Curry?

I do. I actually do. And some of that, granted, if Jimmy Butler had been a warrior the whole season, I think this conversation goes very differently. And you're very right, Waz, to point out the way that the guardrails have come off with Steph. And that was a team that was seemingly terrified of running Steph into the ground for the first half of the season, and rightly so. And now that they have Jimmy, it's like, oh, we can just let Steph be Steph. Not only do we have an extra facilitator and score on the floor or is making his life easier. We just don't have to hold him back in the same way. And we see what Steph. can be. We know what Steph can be. Donovan Mitchell, though, I just think in terms of driving one of the best teams in the league, the best offensive player on the best offensive team overall for the season, that's a meaningful accomplishment. And it's a meaningful accomplishment, both as we've talked about in what Mitchell is doing and what he's pulling back, in the way he's facilitating winning, in the way he's opening things up for his teammates. He's aggressive exactly when he needs to be, and to my eye, like basically exactly the right amount. And I think that's worth rewarding. Yeah, I agree with Rob.

I think we get into this debate most years we've done this. We've done this a few years now where Waz is typically advocating for the best player. Rob and I tend to, I think, align ourselves with the best season or like the resume on paper as opposed to the quality of the player. And I think Mitchell has also been more consistent throughout the year. Steph was taking off back to backs and he just wasn't as, we wasn't there every single game. January. January was brutal. There are more duds now. You can argue Mitchell had more help in that regard. And seeing the help obviously kick stuff into a different gear.

But I just think if you're looking at the entire body of work, like the Cavs have been awesome this entire season. And Mitchell was one of, if not the reason for that. To be the good was. I just think the Cavs success has felt like a more collective effort than a Donovan Mitchell driven. Not that he's not bit in the little. like probably their most impactful players specifically on, I don't see, I don't even think he's their most impactful player.

I think that's Mobley. But like, I think on offense, which is the most important part of the side of the ball, yes, he's definitely the driver of their offense, but I just don't think he has the same level of impact game to game that Steph Curry does.

I'd like, that's just for me, Steph Curry is the definition of all NBA, um, first team. And, you know, Donovan Mitchell, he's on my second team.

Like, I didn't forget about the guy. But I think Steph Curry, you know, and y'all know how I am. I'm always going to defer to the old head before the little young upstarts, even though Donovan Mitchell's been in league for like 10 years. He's not an upstart anymore. It's just Steph Curry's 37 years old, man. Like he's, you know, I'm just been blown away by what he's done basically since the trade.

I'm going to be honest, I did not really think of Steph for this spot. Steph to me was a clear open and shut second team case. And my decision point, Justin, was Donovan, Mitchell for the last spot or Evan Mobley, who was mentioned, we're kind of trying to debate who's more important to the Cavs success, who's bringing more to the table. And LeBron James, I think, has a case for the last first team spot. So that was kind of my, if I'm splitting that fifth spot and trying to figure out who goes there,

those were the three guys I was really looking at. So you didn't consider Anthony Edwards for first team. Not for that spot, no. Considering that the second half that the wolves have had, kind of similar story with Steph where they've turned it on within the past two months or so, and statistically, I think he's right up there with Mitchell, if you want to go there. I consider Mobley as well. I didn't really consider LeBron for first team, although all three of those guys are on my second team.

Make the case for LeBron. I think with LeBron, look, first, first I want to say, him making the team at 40 would be such a special accomplishment. That's not a reason to give it to him. But it's something that's in the air as we're talking through this stuff, as the ballots are going in. I think there's going to be an interesting narrative push for LeBron and the accomplishment given his age and his season. Overall, I just think he's been unbelievable and unbelievable in a way that similar to the Donovan Mitchell case, it's as much about him being LeBron and the moments where he's being something different from what we're accustomed to, where he doesn't have to domineer possessions, where he doesn't have his fingers on every single thing,

where he is setting up other guys in interesting ways and kind of picking his spots with a perfect balance, I think given his skill set. And we've seen over the course of the season, we've seen LeBron the point guard, we've seen LeBron giving room for Austin Reeves to cook, we've seen LeBron giving room for Luca Donchich to cook. I think overall, having the kind of talent that lets you toggle between those things

pretty seamlessly is a really strong all-NBA case. The production is always there with LeBron. The defense, I would say, has been there when the Lakers are at their best and certainly has been there when it matters. Like in the flashes, attention points in games, he absolutely shows up defensive. And so when you zoom out, that's a pretty comprehensive body of work, right?

You're making other players better. You're producing at an all-NBA first-team level. And you're pushing a team that, given both versions of the Lakers we've seen this season, the pre-trade and the post-trade Luca version, don't really have any, like, case to be the third best team in the Western Conference or in the third seat in the Western Conference. And yet, here we are. You know, coming down the end of the season, they're right there with everybody else. my favorite thing with LeBron is to look at his positional designation for the given season on basketball reference

which is probably just algorithmic is something that it spits out based on who he's playing with because LeBron is all things all the time right but I think it does speak to how he has filled gaps depending on who he's playing around and for the Lakers crew dating back to 2018-19 he is a small forward point guard point guard center power forward power forward small forward he's basically run the gamut at this point just because they've needed him to do things. And there's been slight inflections where he's like led the league and assists one year. He played more de facto small ball center because of injuries one year. And those are the more extreme cases. But LeBron can do all of it. I kind of dinged him because earlier in the season, I think his defense was a real big concern. It was about a month plus where he really wasn't there.

And he was kind of like picking and choosing, his chair picking a little bit. He wasn't giving his all all the time. And so we're looking at the entire spectrum of the season, why I probably leaned on Mitchell over even in Edwards or a Steph Curry. that's why I wouldn't have LeBron there. But I have LeBron on the second team, which I didn't expect earlier this year. I thought he might be third team,

which I think is where he ended up last year. The fact that he's doing this at 40 is unbelievable. Yeah. Do we want to zoom out and say individually what our second team ballots are? Yeah. Sure. Why don't you go, Rob?

So I have LeBron and Steph, as you mentioned. Evan Mobley is also second team for me. My last two are Anthony Edwards and Tyrese Halliburton for second team All-N-BIA. Shocking. Tirees Halliburton. and second. Very good player, it turns out. My second team, he said,

my second team is LeBron, Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, and Carl Anthony Towns. Okay. I have Edwards, Brunson, Curry, Mobley, LeBron. Nice. So we have identified, yeah, like that last spot, I have exactly those three guys. I think it's Ant, I think it's Brunson,

I think it's Towns. And I will say maybe a. fourth guy. I think Jaron Jackson Jr. has a place in that conversation as well. And probably we'll get on some second team ballots, but we're representing the fundamental dilemma here. Yeah. Can we talk about Ant quickly just because he's been passed in? He's someone I seriously consider for the first team spot like I mentioned before, have two stats for you. So after all, the like, oh, aunt needs to be more of a playmaker. Like we're trading Carl Anthony Towns because we're going to empower Anthony Edwards. His assists are actually down this year, 5.1 to 4.6, notable because he's

had to have some more Mike Conley like handholding going on there. Obviously, Julius Randall has played a role in that as well. But on the flip side, there are three other players in NBA history who have attempted 10 or more threes a game who have shot 40% or higher from three. Those three players are Clay Thompson did it once. Damian Lillard did it twice. And Steph Curry did it three, seven times. Seven times for Steph Curry.

But now Anthony Edwards is the fourth because he's at 40%. I think he's shooting like 10.3 a game. Like the fact that he has just become a volume three point shooter at the highest level, almost by will, it was just like, I'm going to go do this. I'm going to take a lot of threes. I'm going to be fucking incredible at it has been a revelation. Yeah, we're old enough to remember when the ding on Anthony Edwards was that he was settling for too many jump shots. And then the ding even earlier this season was that his offense was two, three point centric,

despite the fact that it was gummed up and everyone was sitting in the lane for him. I'm like amazing season, as far as the three-point shooting goes, amazing season as far as getting to the line, which is such an underrated thing with Ant that I think stabilizes the way Minnesota plays overall. Also, it's just played an absolute fuck ton of minutes. And when we're talking about Star Impact, like, I don't want to split hairs, you know,

like guys are going to miss games, guys are going to ebb and flow in terms of what they're, what they're bringing to the table, how much they're able to contribute. But if you're playing at a star level over a huge minutes load, you're naturally going to have a really profound impact on the way any team plays. And unlike guys like Jalen Brunson, unlike guys like Kat,

is a legit two-way star, right? Like, is a driver of offense in a creative way, and he's showing up defensively, just a huge feather in his cap that I think has to factor into these conversations. Yeah, and I think the improvements that he's made this year are, like, kind of subtle, too. You know, he's had to get smarter about dealing with the extra attention

that comes with, you know, not having Carl Towns as a, pressure release valve. And I think on his drives, man, like I don't know that he showed up in the numbers, but he's just way more balanced. And like it feels more, I don't know, threatening when he drives now. Whereas like earlier in his career,

he would be just so off kilter on his drives. And like, you know, as athletic that he is, it felt like his finishing was kind of lagging behind. But now I think like, man, when he's driving, it's with a purpose. And like, he could pass that thing out when he's in the mood too, or he's just straight up finishing over, you know, the trees out there. So I think that's been some of the nicer improvements throughout the course of the season,

because this wasn't happening in November. Okay, like, it's been a gradual thing. And so it's cool to see this guy like, you know, making nice tweaks in season to his attack. So none of you guys had Brunson on your second team, correct? Not quite, yeah. I did. Why did you guys, you had him on third team, I assume? I do.

I was not going to lie. I was confused as to whether he was eligible or not. Yeah. He is a borderline case. Because of all of the games missed. So like, I guess he would, yeah,

he would beat my third team either way, man. Just Towns playing so many more games than him. Yeah. And being the most important offensive player for the Knicks, especially in those games where Brunson's not around. I would have been town's anyway. Basically how I did this is I put in Brunson

and eventually Kevin Durant to spoil that. And I'm just going to assume that like when they get taken out, I will take them out. I have replacements lined up for them. But for now I just did it almost as if both were going to be eligible. But Rob, you had towns on second team and not Brunson? No, I have no towns. I have no chance. I have neither on second team.

Yeah, I have Tyreys Halliburton in the spot that you guys have towns or Brunson. Why don't you explain that one? I mean, let me start here. As good as he's ever been, if we're being honest. I think the Pacers are an elite offensive team. he is the single factor that makes that so. No one on the roster can replicate what he does because no guard in the league can replicate what he does.

I think his impact on overall offense ultimately is even more significant than Jalen Brunson's. Those are two guards that are easy to kind of, okay, what do these guys do together? One of them is one of the most advanced playmakers in the league. One of them is driving not just the flow of offense, but the direction of that offense, setting guys up, finding them opportunities.

Brunson is great. His natural bent being score first, and he's great at that, just like preposterously efficient for a player his size if we're being honest with Jalen Brunson. I think it's just a little more limiting in a way that the Knicks have to actively confront.

That's the reason you go get Carl Anthony Towns in the first place is in part because Brunson is the size that he is and he plays the style that he does and that style will run up against a certain kind of wall. Halliburton has his version of that, which I think is his one-on-one creation specifically in terms of generating his own shot.

I think he's gotten better at those things over the course of the year. I think the Pacers have been just shot out of a canon since late December, early January specifically. And their rise overall through the back part of the season, I find very compelling. I find Halliburton's case to be incredibly compelling. I just, I don't see how this isn't one of the best offensive players in the world. So here's the thing.

There's a tension between watching Halliburton and just observing his actual on-court impact. Like, just look at any of all of his numbers. Like, all of the numbers suggest that this is a dominant. player. Like, you just don't feel that way. Nah. I see, I just, I disagree. This is the thing. Like, if you're watching Tyre's Halliburton and your hang up is like, oh, it's a one-on-one situation, there's two minutes left in the game, can't beat anybody. You need a bucket. I think he's gotten a little better at it, but I take your point. Like,

he's not Jalen Brunson in that regard. In a go get our team a bucket on this possession scenario. That's not, that's not his game. That's not what a strong suit. That's not how he wants to play. if you take the game in totality and the runs that he enables and the leads that he builds so that the Pacers don't have to be in that position I mean like look at the record like these teams are in comparable

positions I don't know what to tell you. I'm laughing because he's right it's just true like in terms of the way the Pacers play is definitely Halliburton driven like it it's his vision

of basketball being implemented the entire game. Like, there's no two ways about it. Like, he puts his stamp on every single game. It's just, I don't know. It's just something about watching it. I'm telling you all, it just doesn't feel like I'm watching, you know.

Like, in a way that, like, back when J. Kidd was in his prime, he wasn't dropping 30. He wasn't some one-on-one killer. But if, like, I don't know, you felt J.Kid's dominance on a possession of possession basis, you know, at his best. And I think J.K. It is kind of his closest comp in terms of like, this guy will just impose a style of basketball

on every single game that he's in. And, you know, like, I don't think Rob is wrong. It's just for my personal. Maybe that's why Adam Silver won't give me a real ballot. My personal ballot, he's, he's my third team. He's just not on my second team. Okay. I don't want to spoil where I have him because, you know, I don't think he was going to like it.

You have him on eighth team. Maybe eighth, maybe 18th. I do think this does probably come down to stylistic preferences to a certain degree. It just sounds like Rob just leans into the fact that he's a conductor and more so than what was and I are saying where we like the raw, cold efficiency of Bronson being able to get you a bucket. I think for Halliburn, admittedly, there's some like latent just playoff effect going on here where it's hard to shake the visions of him not being able to shake his defender in order to get into the paint.

What series was that in when those problems came up? Both? They went on a massive run in the playoffs because of him. He was not good. He was not good against the Knicks. He had like two good games in a seven game series. He was not good against the Knicks. I'm not saying it was his best moment.

I think this version of Halliburton that is playing right now is the best version of Halliburton we've seen to date. And that is exciting. Well, that's part of it as well, though. This version right now over the past half of the season, yes, earlier in the season, very similar results. I think we're talking about consistency, and I do think a lot of what's driving my ballot is guys who have done it over the course of the season, not necessarily popped in certain moments. Halliburton and the Pacers in totality have been better in the second half than they have in the first half.

And the first half, Halberton was pretty rough at times. He has completely rewrited the ship there. But even like the Pacers, their offense over the course of the season, not necessarily scintillating. This isn't last year's Pacers where they're threatening or breaking offensive records. They have been good. I think they're seventh on offense right now. And so, yeah, like in comparison to like the Knicks who like, I think if they had been fully healthy would have probably been one or two with the bullet. I think they're kind of in the same range with the basers at this point. That's why I have Brunson over Halliburton. I have considered Halliburton.

He's in the mix for some of my last spots. But obviously I think differently about Halliburne. It's true. We all have our flaws, Justin. Like I appreciate you acknowledging that this is really a hang up for you on a personal level. When it comes down to the Indiana Mount Rushmore, is it like, Leslie Nope Reggie Miller

Caitlin Cooper and you Why would I be on it a nice Not Tyrese Halliborne? Do you get consideration there Just because it seems like you're an advocate For the state in the city Well you have a key to the city Just like

What's underneath your shirt right there? Am I prepared to also make a Pascal Seaccom honorable mention case? I am. You know, this is I just have a lot of respect for what the basers do and the way they play. Okay.

Let's go to third team because I think we covered everything. Evan Mobley, we talked at length about it in our cabs pod. So if you want to hear 40 minutes plus on Evan Mobley, I suggest go listening to that. Was, wanting to hit us with your third team? So, yeah, again, I'm like, I got a little confused with the eligibility stuff, but I have Garland, Jaron Jackson, Halliburton, KD, and now you guys have convinced me

to replace Cade with Brunson. So Brunson, because he is eligible, but I had KD, who's barely eligible too. This is all just so cooked. Yeah, Garland, Jackson, Halliburton, KD, and Brunson. Nice. I'm glad to see Garland getting some love. But Cade is my first next man.

You're next in. For sure. Brunson in Town, so we've already decided. discussed, Jaron Dection Jr. has to be on this team. Yeah. I have Cade Cunningham. I also have KD in that last spot. I'm flexing him out if he is not eligible for Jalen Williams. That would be my alternate. Okay. So I have Jaron Jackson. He's already shaking his dad. He's already out on Jalen Williams. We'll get to it. We'll get to it. Jaron Jackson, Cade, Towns. I have KD. in for now, but I presume we'll have to come up with a replacement.

And with my last spot, I have Jalen Williams, who I'll be honest. don't feel great about. So if anyone wants to convince me otherwise, especially coming off the 4-4-14 performance against the Lakers the other night, which practically underline every concern you have about him now and in the playoffs. Not the best time to be doing this,

but that's why I have it right now. I want to say this. I love Jalen Williams. Love his game. Be a big fan of everything that the Thunder have done this season. The reason we are talking about him as an all-N-Ba-candidate is because here is a partial list of guys who are not eligible this year. Luca Donchich, Victor Webbenyama,

Kauai Leonard, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, Zion Williamson, Jimmy Butler, Palo and Franz, Joelle and Bede, Paul George, Tyrese, etc., etc. Like, there are just so many guys. Dame Lillard. Who just are not in the mix because they have not played enough games. And this is how Jalen Williams might get an all-N-B-A spot. Not that he's not a really good player and potentially deserving in his own way,

given the field, but he's not Luca Donchich. He's not Victor Webbenyama. And those guys are not eligible to get spots to someone like Jalen Williams will. Yeah, the reason why I got Garland. Ahead of a guy like Jalen Williams is, again, like Donovan Mitchell's, like the de-emphasis that he's taking on this year, it's Garland doing a lot of the ball handling and, you know, the distribution and stuff like that. Like, he's just been one of the best point guards in the entire NBA. And so, yeah, for me, that guy, like, has way more of an imprint on what the cabs are doing.

And J-dub does with, you know, with O.K. And that's because Shay is so heliocentric. Like, it is what it is. Like the guy's incredible at it. He's probably definitely going to win the MVP. Like there's something to the idea that he can even win the MVP. You know, it's because these other guys around him are not as integral to shaping, you know, the excellence of OKC. And so, yeah, like Jalen Williams, not making my team.

Maybe in the future, kid, keep working hard. We'll consider you. Garland is sick. And again, I would love to find room for him. I just, I couldn't quite get there with a third cav, even relative to some of these alternatives. I mean, the thunder have had as dominant or more dominant season in their own right. These dudes just standing around and take standstill threes. I'm not, I'm not rewarding these cats.

I'm sorry. No. Here's the difference. Yes, I, J-Dub is a very different role. Yeah, he's different. He actually puts it on the deck and does stuff. Yes. Yes, I get that.

Also, a crucial part of the J-Dub case, not to get ahead of ourselves. he's on my second team all defense. And if you're an all defensive level player and a second supporting star, now we're starting to get somewhere, right? Like now you get a max contract. You don't get to make all NBA. Maybe you also get all NBA.

I think all defense, like a second supporting star, versatility, actual production. Now we're, we really have something to come to the committee with, to say, okay, Jalen Williams versus Darius Garland, Jaila Williams versus Alper and Schengun,

Jailin Williams versus James Harden, whoever you want to compare him to for this last spot. I think he has a really compelling case. I just think the J-Dub stuff is very premature in terms of the hype and the adulation. And I'm just like, even All-Star is here, I was like, this kid's not on my All-Star team. Like, I get it. What OKC is doing is amazing and we want to reward some of these guys. But, like, in terms of, like, possession of possession, I'm sorry.

He just doesn't do the stuff that Garland does. He doesn't. I think, so I think you can look at it two ways. you could say the fact that he played center for a month plus might be that's sort of flashy calling card in a way that's helping me overwrite some other players, Tarii-Halbburton in particular, where it's like, you got J-dub over Tyrese Halliburton? Well, yes, because this is the other side of us. I think that the thunder are going to go down as one of the best teams in NBA history.

And just because a lot of his value is coming from defense as opposed to offense, like I think we're easily writing that off. For instance, with the Warriors and the primers, like, would you not play Thompson on one of these lists just because he plays off Stefan Dremont? It seems like you have to reward the totality of the contributions to a historically good team. And I think J-Dub is a very good offensive player, clearly the number two in that team, definitely lacking in ways that we've talked about at Lentham will again in the playoffs.

But I think, like, his defensive impact is pretty considerable. Bowl. And in fact, like, compared to a lot of the guys I have on my 13, other than Jaron Jackson, Jr., blows all those guys out the door. Cunningham Towns, Durant, to a certain extent, better defender, but doesn't have that sort of impact that J. Dub does. Jaydub's not having a better season than Cade Cunningham. I have just not. I have Kay. No, no, Tyrese Hallib. See, I love this just like, I'm with Justin on J. Dub Island here, but I'm against him on Hallibon Island. So, like, the treaties are in conflict. I don't know what to do about it. Justin hates Tyrese Hallibald. Burton. There's just no two ways about it.

I just value you guys that play well for an entire season. An entire season worth of data and games. I was out here watching Hornets games in October. I don't know where everyone else was. But I account for that stuff.

It's just a preposterous case. He's so he's so principled. That's what's happening here. If I can talk out of both sides of my mouth here a little bit on J-dub. That's podcasting, baby.

That is podcasting. There's one little statistical quirk, I would say, in J-dub's case, and also in LeBron's case, that I don't know how to reconcile. I don't know if anyone out there knows how to reconcile, which is that their teams have been quite good when they aren't on the floor. And so the on-off splits, which can be very, very slippery. I'm not saying this is a damning element to either of their cases. But if we're trying to split ties and, again, split hairs, that stuff has an argument,

right? Like, there is a kernel of something there that we have to parse and get to the bottom with. And I can't really find a compelling reason other than J-Dub has asked to carry some lineups that don't have Shea involved. Here's the difference. We know for a fact that the Lakers, both versions of their team, would be horrible without LeBron James. The OKC Thunder would be just fine if J-dub were not around this season. I don't know about just fine. I mean, we know this. But they would not be, they would not be historically dominant. That's the difference. Well, they also have-

be just fine without this kid. They also have the type of death to overcome that as we saw it with Chet being out for basically all the season. I think I threw out a lot of the on-off stuff when I saw that on the thunder, their defense is technically better, in air quotes, with Wallace off the floor, with Dorr off the floor, with Williams off the floor. And so especially on the defensive side,

that stuff is so noisy, all due respect to ESPN making the case for Nicola Yoakish being the best defender in the year, which I haven't given that a look. He has, I don't think that's a little noisy. I don't think that was the case. All in defensive stats.

Yokic is at the tippy top of every single one of those stats. But what I'm saying is defensive stats are focused. Sure. But we also did. And just to button this a little bit. We did right. If you look at Zach Cram, I think last year or two years ago, wrote about why all those defensive stats are so noisy.

And so I do think this kind of falls into that range. Super noisy. And I want to say on off too, as we've kind of been circling here, is a depth stat. Like it is representative of who you're playing, not just with, but who is behind you, who is kind of like filling in in those moments and what they're bringing to the table. And so, yeah, like the Thunder have so many great players. So many great players on both sides of the ball that naturally Jay, Jill Williams is going to show up in a different way with a number like that. Let me tell you about one of my favorite bets that Fandall has right now. They're called player performance doubles. If you don't know about them, you got to check them out. There are these two-leg parlays already made for you. handle takes an NBA player prop, then combines it with a bet on that player's team to win. They have a bunch of them for every game. You just have to pick the one you like.

So we're looking ahead to the future slate here. Warriors at Phoenix, I obviously like the Warriors to win that game. The Suns have been an absolute mess if you haven't seen over the past few games. And practically the whole season Warriors have been on a heater, practically since they had Jimmy Butler in there. And so I like the Warriors to win that game and give me Steph to score 30 plus. I know he had the clunker against Houston the other night, but the three games before that, check this out, 52, 37, 36. So give me 30 plus on Steph at plus 200,

plus the Warriors to win it, lock it in. I think that's a good bet. And whether you want to ride with my pick or make your own, Fanduel is giving all customers a profit boost exclusively for these bets on Tuesday. Just head to fendul.com slash ringer MBA to get your profit boost. Make every moment more with Fandul, America's number one sportsbook. Must be 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in present in D.C.

Opt-in required bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. Gambling problem, call 1800 gambler or visit RG-Help.com. We didn't talk about some of the other guys here. Want to talk about Cade? I think we all have him. No, Waz does not happen.

No, I got, oh, no, yeah, he's my last man out. For the Brunson swap. You have to replace KD, though, in theory. So would you swap in K or? 100%. Halliburton is locked in. Garland is locked in. Jaron Jackson is locked in.

These are locks on my third team. And then it's basically the KD, Cade, Brunson situation. And I just think Cade, man, is, you know, I mean, he's basically earned his keep. I think a lot of people eyebrow raised at the automatic max extension for the guy, even if he was number one pick, the guy just was not on the floor. And at times when he was, like, the turnover situation was just insane.

It's still not great, we should say. It's still not great, yes. But, you know, this year, again, and another thing, he wasn't shown an ability to score of people one-on-one. It was just like, yo, what is this kid? And then this year, it's all come together, man. And like you see the vision for who this kid can be going forward. And Detroit just like, you know, just going from losing 40 games in a row to being, you know, the bullies on the block.

Yeah. You know, literally beating guys up while also, you know, sailing into the playoffs this year. It's awesome to see, man. I think he might wind up being one of the most unanimous picks for all NBA. I just think there's something in Cade's game for everybody, right? he's got the obvious like box score numbers, 26 and 9 and 6 is going to jump off the page for a lot of people. He has the clear, if you were watching these games,

you feel the heavy lift of his pick and roll execution, and you see his vision on display in a way that is really compelling. And as well as alluded to, this is a rock solid locked in playoff team. The fact that they got to the sixth seat, I think it gives him a nice bit of momentum, some wind on his back in terms of splitting some of these differences, splitting some of these ties.

I think Kate is definitely going to make all unbeat. and I think when all of said and done, he probably is going to make it on even more ballots than we realize. I actually considered him for second team, as I was thinking through some of like the Jalen Brunson sort of spots there. Ultimately, I didn't, if only because if we're looking at the NBA in totality, which we honestly should in terms of playoff seedings and whatnot, but we're just, you know, stuck in our ways for whatever reason.

We've changed the All-Star game every fucking two month, but we won't change the way seating work. That's fine. The pistons, despite their successful season, would be the ninth seed in the West. And so I took that into account just in terms of overall value. I think as we're talking about the Pistons,

like this has been an awesome success story. But one thing I will say to talk out of my own mouth, two sides of my own mouth. Let's do it. Both sides of your mouth. I hope you're talking out of your own mouth. I have a lot of questions.

Or I can just be AI. I'm just typing as this is happening. I think he's doing more with less. Like I respect the fact that Malik Beasley has become the best three-point shooter in NBA history. that Tim Hardaway Jr. is just like a credible rotation player

that you can count on in big moments. Yeah, on and on. I just don't think there's actually a lot there that Cade is orchestrating. So the efficiency, especially in comparison to someone like Caliburn, is lacking. But I do think he's doing more

with much less when you look at the other guys around him. I think there's some truth to that. I don't look at a team like the Pacers, Seacum excluded and see like, this is a murderer's row of all league caliber players. There's a lot of role players I like. There's a lot of guys who make sense in their roles. I think that's true of the Pistons, too, in their way. But they are a more defense

forward unit, given their personnel. And some of the young guys who are in that mix are kind of unusual pieces to have to fit. And that's where Kate is so good. Like, the way he processes the game is already so sophisticated that he's going to make someone like Assar Thompson even better and even more sensible. He's going to make someone like Ron Holland even better, even more sensible. So you have all these things coming together for him. And I'm just been really impressed by the season that Kate has had. I think he's absolutely going to be in here. To me, the, the, the borderline cases are, it's definitely more Kevin Durant.

And I think some of that will come down to how people think of the sun season overall. Like, should they just be dinged, Durant and Booker in the All-NBA discussion for the way that team has gone off the rails? My counterpoint would be one, when Kevin Durant plays as a winning team. And he's had an unbelievable offensive season,

especially on an individual level. But when he's out there, they win. When he's not, anything is possible. And so if there is going to be a son that's going to be in, it should be Kevin Durant. I would not blame anyone, though, for looking at all the Phoenix candidates and saying,

I just don't want to reward everything that has gone on there. So I also think you have to look at Devin Booker, who is someone I looked hard at here. And now, I think you're right, Rob. What distinguished KD from Booker was the fact that Phoenix has been so good with KD on the floor? But if you look at Booker's numbers

in comparison to his first team all-MBA season, which was just a few years ago, 21-22, This is his line this year. 26, 7 assists and 4 on 53% effective field goal, let's say. First team all NBA season, 27, 5, and 5. And fewer games. It's virtually the same. And so I get into this weird nebulous space where it's like,

are we actually just dinging Booker and to a certain extent KD because the roster has just been so deficient? Like how much is this actually on Booker and KD? But then you get into this spin cycle where you're like, how the fuck can I have two of these guys when this is one of the most disappointing teams in NBA history? I think ultimately the basketball reasons why the sons are bad

are not really Kevin Durant or Devin Booker's problem. They've played well. I wouldn't say that they've elevated some of their teammates. I wouldn't say they've been the kind of like, if we're going to buy nebulous intangible leadership qualities, they're not getting any benefit of the doubt on any of that kind of stuff. Ultimately, the reason sons are bad has more to do with, I think Mike Booneholes are not always having his hand

on the wheel. I think the depth issues are significant. The defense is a disaster. And that's an effort standpoint. And that's one area where you could ding Devin Booker and Kevin Durant at some points in the season that maybe they haven't been delivering defensively in the way you would want. Obviously, Bradley Beale has not lived up to his part of the bargain as far as this being like an actual self-standing big three.

It is a two-legged stool that keeps falling over. And those two legs are pretty sturdy, individually speaking. But I just, I don't know that I can get there with Booker. I can get there with Durant because 27 points. on basically league leading efficiency is fucking impressive no matter who's doing it and so yeah

like I'm a little more I'm a little more convinced by what Durant has offered this season than Booker who has been good but maybe not all NBA good so I think we all had KD

let's just say he doesn't make it Waz is putting in Kade Rob who do you have is your first up on the outside looking in right now until KD's out that's my Jalen Williams flex spot

I see I'm a little bit more torn. I would look at Booker. I would look at Halliburton. I would look at the last guy here that we haven't talked about, which is Alperin Shengoun. The Rockets, when nobody was looking, just went on a run for the ages.

I think they've lost like twice in the past two months or something like that. They're just bawling teams, like attack dogs at this point. They win 69% of their games when Shangoon plays. It's insane. He's their best player, and it's not even close. He's the best player on an excellent regular season team. And I didn't even say that in a way to take anything away from what they're going to do in the playoffs. They may be really good.

We just saw the manhandle the Warriors. Like, their physicality is real. Their athleticism is real. Shangun's skill level in production are real. I think he has a totally valid case for third team. I couldn't quite get there. And ultimately, I'm looking at what J-Dub is bringing to the Thunder and Shangun is bring to the Rockets. And this is, to me, the hardest discussion in all of the all-NBA stuff is,

where do you draw the line between really good and competent and successful second options versus very successful, but ultimately not ultra-superstar level first options? It's so fuzzy. And for me, Shang-goon got kind of the short end of things here, but he's all NBA worthy. There's no doubt about it. Was, where are you on our guy, Alpi? I mean, this season has been pretty impressive, man. I think him answering the kind of defensive question that always kind of lingered around him. Like, can this team be competent, no matter what kind of athletes are there

with this guy on defense and him answering the bell in that sense and being like besides Fred Van Vleet, their most sturdiest, like, dependable, offensive player, I think is a big deal. Again, I think it's one of those things with the Rockets where it feels like what's making them excellent

is their defense. And yeah, I get it. He's buttressing their offense enough to make it, like, good enough to be this caliber of team. But they're a great team because they kick people's asses on defense. And, like, I'm sorry,

I'm not going to be like Shangoon. Like, because you're on this average, you're the best person on this average offense. I need to give you third team all in the A. I'm sorry. Love the guy. But no. I think it's a tough one, though,

because unlike past years, you can't make the full-throated disguise as an awful defender and like he's not dropped up he's actually straight up not quite quite good the fact that they've made the two big approach not only work but actually thrive has been ridiculous like i don't know how that they're still trotting out him and stephen adams is a front course stephen adams just having a renaissance despite only being like in his early 30s we think he's like 45 at this point but like i don't know how that's working but they are just absolutely pummeling teams the problem is offensively it's just like efficiency is quite poor and he isn't exactly scintillating

there, but that is his main case if he's going to be there. And so in that case, I'm probably going to lean someone like Halberin, who is an efficiency monster despite giving away what he gives on defense. And so, like, the one thing he does well is so good. It's hard to overlook. Whereas with Shengoon, it's like he's pretty good at a couple things. Yeah. I think that's just somewhere where we kind of zoom past this guy, so I want to give him at

least a little moment, where Jaron Jackson's case is so distinct. Jaron Jackson is on a good defensive team. He is an all defense level player. and he's basically leading his team in scoring at a time when they've had, yes, depth, but so much uncertainty, it's been quite unstable. It's been a balancing act in terms of getting that offense to work. There's a lot going on over there.

There's a lot going on. And he is the reason to the extent that it has worked, why it has worked. And there really is something to that when you can tether a team's specific strengths to what is making them successful, to what a specific player is bringing to the table. It's just a cleaner case.

Like, Jaron Jackson Jr., having this sort of Swiss Army knife role is what makes the Grizzlies balanced. It's what makes them functional and makes them so versatile. Alper and Shangun is good at certain things. He's a little more limited in other ways, but they're not necessarily aligning, as you said, Waz, with what is it

that's driving Houston's ultimate success this season? He's contributing to that. He's a factor in it, but it's not his best quality. And so what are we voting for when we vote for Alper and Shangun? I think it's a murky question that is going to stick with some votes. We just want to reward a rocket.

That's it. I think it's more. I think it's more than that. Yeah. But that definitely does help his case. I think with Jaron Jackson, the thing that's been most startling is if you look at his raw production, it's virtually the same as last year when we all just kind of wrote it off as like, oh, he's just playing through some stuff.

He's trying things. There's nobody around. This is just a free pass to like explore the wonders of your game. He's doing practically the same stuff on much better efficiency. So basically the guys around him have just gotten better. If anything, they've leaned the offense more in his direction. That's just because John Moran is just not around all the time. but I do think a part of the reason why they wanted democratize things and virtually forced Taylor Jenkins out to the point before he was even out, they were kind of pushing him aside.

It was because Jared Jackson has been so awesome. And so for me, he was clear third team. Yeah, for me, it was almost like I was kind of expecting him to be second team. And I didn't quite have room for him there. But has an open and shut case as far as all the A goes to me. So with my last spot, if I have to replace KD, which let's hope that we don't. I would probably lean Halliburne if only because I want to. to be back on Rob's good side.

Thank God. Are there any other honorable mentions that we need to mention here? Garland, we talked about. Yeah. Tom Murray, maybe. No. Joe Young having the weirdest. Jamal Murray, absolutely not.

I don't think Jamal's there. I'm in the deep long list at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jalen Brown, James Hardin. DeMontas a subonis, we have to say. Yeah, so bonus is a... DeMontas subonis deserves consideration. Numbers.

Absolutely deserves consideration. Did Waz just get like No, no, no, no. His numbers. What's going on here? His numbers. Okay, there it is. Impressive.

Not his play. I think his play is also quite impressive, but maybe not all NBA impressive. But if Waz just tried to backdoor becoming a big Sabatistan and just be hoping no one mentioned it? Ever, ever, ever, ever. That's never happening.

I actually do think Pascal Seaccombe is not going to get votes. I do think he is worth a lot. look. I do think his... We know. I'm going to back up. I'm going to let it speak for itself. We know where you stand on every pacer that's ever existed.

People in Indianapolis get this guy at dinner. Bring him to St. Elmo's. She's got your back. I should have never been. I haven't partaken in the shrimp cocktail myself. I got to make that happen next time. The shrimp cocktail definitely had my nose like... That's what you want.

It was serious. If the horseradish doesn't have me in pain, we're not doing it, right? It was serious business. It was serious. I'm glad to hear it. All right. Let's flip to all defense now. Another list just completely impacted by the minutes and the games played.

A bunch of guys not eligible, unfortunately, Wembe. First and foremost would be number one with a bullet on my list. I have to imagine our first teams, much like with all NBA, are pretty similar. I'm going to give you what I have at first team. Evan Mobley, Dyson Daniels, Lou Dort, Jaron Jackson, Jr., Draymond Green. So I have four of the five. Same. Evan Mowgli, Draymond, Dyson,

Daniels, Lou Dort. I actually have Amin Thompson in Jaron Jackson, Jr.'s spot for first team. So I don't, it's tough for me to reward the wing defenders, even when they're great. So Dyson is my only wing, and I have Draymond, Mobley, Jaron Jackson, Jr., always want to say the third,

and Zubach. Yeah. Zoo. Zoo is on my first team. Because he's a big man, anchoring that defense. The defense is basically what's made these guys what they've been this year. And I get it. Chris Dunn is nice and all this other stuff. And you know, Jones Jr. And we get it. These guys are great

players on defense. But it's Zub that's manning the pain. His freaking rim protection numbers are out of this world. He's been so good. Yeah, Zubotch is my first team. Was is baiting us, Rob. I feel like the Dunn side swipe was was first specifically. Listen, I like what Dunn is doing. he's on my other team, but no,

big man take precedence for this particular war because they're the most important part of a defense. They do take precedence. I was looking at my ballot and the fact that I have effectively three perimeter players

on my first team all defense in a what is now, what is a positionless ballot? I don't know what to think of myself. Wait, who's your third perimeter play? Oh, no, it's Amen and. I guess it depends on how you define Amen Thompson. Is he a perimeter player?

I don't know. He's out there doing things that no other. defender would dare even try to do, and he's doing it at just an insane, obscene level. Lou Dort and Dyson Daniels, I think, deserve a place here. I mean, Dyson Daniels, we've been talking about all season in terms of the impact he has in deflections and steals, like the numbers, the very measurable things are all there. You can also see just like the terror factor upping when Dyson Daniels is even vaguely involved

in a play. And I want to reward that. So Daniels is now averaging three steals a game, which if you're just looking at a box score just looks wrong. That's insane. I thought I was on like the wrong page. I thought I was like on a per 36 minute or like an advanced percentage one. Three steals a game. The last time that that has happened, 93, 94, Nate McMillan. Wow. Since the mid-90s.

Yeah. That has not happened. That's insane. I think there is something there too where when you think about player development, for example, a player going from like an end of the bench guy into. getting into games. Okay, that's like a real development. Getting into games, there's being a starter, that's a more profound development that requires a lot more. Going from starter to star is far in a way, not just the most important kind of development, but the most difficult to scale.

I think going from two steals a game to three, statistically speaking, is a similar kind of thing, not just because it's historically without precedent other than Nate McMillan, as you said, Justin, but the breadth of what you have to see in process to be able to get three steals at game requires a really, really special defensive mind. And so he's not just a guy who's gambling for everything, making it work like he is seeing things on the floor at a super high level and has some of the best hands in the business. So Dyson Daniels's great. Lou Dort, I think it's just like the intensity leader of the best defense in basketball.

And frankly, one of the best defenses I've ever seen. And so when you're that big and that physical and that relentless, in addition to the ISO numbers being what they are, which you can find them. They're really terrifying what he can do to opposing scores. That's deserving a first team selection as well for me. So we'll save the defensive player of the year conversation for the next one. To get in some of the particulars about our first team. What's funny is I had a man in my first team, but then I moved him out at last second for

Dremont. Perhaps I'm just like caught up in the propaganda. Oh, you are being propagandized. Because good Lord, I have to give Dremon credit because he saw an O, opportunity and he was like, I am going to be the one who fills the information void here. I'm going to make my own case very loudly. And it's hard to miss because he also has been very good since the Butler trade. Unfortunately, it's been since the Butler trade, he's just completely jumped off the page.

We may need Draymond Green political operative. Like, there's some vacuums out in the conversation. I feel like he could help us navigate and fill a little more effectively. I feel like in the wrong hands, that can go terribly. terribly wrong. It's true. Second team here. I have Amen Thompson, as I mentioned.

I also have Avisa Zubach. I have Tumani Kamara, because you're goddamn right, I do. I have, the last two spots were tough for me. They could honestly go anyway. I have Kaysen Wallace over Jalen Williams. Fuck, yeah, let's go. I don't really know how to parse the difference with some of these Thunder guys. I could put five guys from the Thunder on this team.

Cruze. Not eligible because of minutes and everything. I just, I don't know really how to do it, but Wallace, as I watch, is such an impactful point of attack defender. The steals numbers are much better. I think he's averaging like two and a half for 36, which is nuts. And then I have Rudy Gobert as the last guy reluctantly, another guy that I'm reluctant. Put some respect to Rudy Gober's defense.

You don't need to be reluctant about it. It's just like, defensively, he's still a high impact player. I see, I think he has been more or less there the whole season, just even better lately. I think he was not to me what was the flaw in their early season. defense. That's fair. That's fair. And that's why I didn't have Jaden McDaniels, for instance. McDaniels definitely would be knowledgeable if we're talking about second half of the season.

He stepped it up. Absolutely incredible. But so that's Amen, Tumani, Zubach, Wallace, Gobert. Was, who do you have? Amman, Rudy, Dort, Kamara, and Chris Dunn. Well, so Chris Dunn, we need to talk about. Yes, because Adam Silver is ruining our awards ballot again. Chris Dunn has played 70 games this season. only 51 of those games count as qualifying

because Chris Dunn played, you know, like 10 minutes here, 12 minutes there, did not play the 20 required minutes in one of those games. So Chris Dunn not eligible. We should also say, obviously, Victor Webiniamma, Anthony Davis, those are guys who would be on the team almost every year. Easily. They're out. D.D., when he plays is still just supremely impactful.

In fact, watching the Lakers play against the Warriors and having no answer for Steph, I'm like, damn, AD was really the Steph answer, dude. Like, your pick and roll is done with this guy on the floor. It's so true. I think Jonathan Isaac would have had a case too. He only has 13 qualifying games because he plays 15 minutes game. Well, but those 15 minutes are banging. Like, he's when he's out there, he's an amazing defensive player.

And the reason he's not playing is not because of his defense. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, if we're rewarding the best defensive players, I think he's there. Jalen Suggs. Assar Thompson, Tari Isson, those guys are all out based on minutes. The Thunder guys, you said, Justin, Caruso, Isaiah Hardinstein, Chet Holngren, all ineligible. All probably could have made an all defensive team. Drew Holiday.

I think Al Horford is also ineligible. There's a lot of really, really good defenders who are just not able to be on the ballot here. Damn, big out. Yeah. So, Waz, if you're going to replace Chris Dunn, who you cannot vote for with somebody else, who would you pick? Man, I was probably going to go another big, probably Hartenstein. Can't vote for him.

Also ineligible. Oh, he's also ineligible? Yeah. Who else do I have here? I have J-dub. I think Caruso's ineligible too. Also ineligible. Yeah.

Yeah, J-dub. Another thunder. Just figure out another thunder. Yeah. That's it. I think you could do worse. The defense is sick. Look, music to my ears that you got Kays and Wallace in here, Justin, who is just one of the best one-on-one

defenders in the world. And it's maybe a little more narrow in his application than Lou Dord. Because, right, he is smaller. He needs to be... He's a little guy. I'm always reluctant with the little guys, man. There's a little bit of like... The hands are great.

There's a little bit of like Avery, Bradley, but maybe actually demonstrably good and not just we see it and it looks obvious, but it doesn't pan out when you really look under the hood. Sure. I really like Jason Wallace's game. I think for J-dub, for me, it's like the hyper versatility we talked about

with him playing the five. He's like ready for whatever's called for. And he also has the fun thing going for him where he's like such a goofy funky score and he knows all the angles and he's able to apply that to where like you just can't really get by J-dub one-on-one either. You can't get the corner on him because he knows how to leverage those sorts of opportunities and create space.

I love guys whose brains can work both ways in that capacity. And so like what J-Dub is doing on top of his offensive load, I find really impressive. So did you give your full second team, Rob? I did not. Sorry, we zoomed ahead. My second team in full, Jaron Jackson Jr., Avita Zubats, Rudy Gobert, Tumani. Kamara to complete the triple crown, group chat approved to Mani Kamara, and Jalen Williams

gets my last spot. Okay. So I think we all have virtually the same names. Yeah. Rudy, Amman, Kamara, J. Dub, yep. Can we say one more thing about Zhu just to circle back to him for a second? Because we kind of got sidetracked and the Chris Dunn of it all. He's always been a really good positional defender.

Always. Good sense of how to muck things up, where to be on the court. I think what changed for me this season with him is you watch Clippers games and like the first thing that pops out is how enormous Avitsa Zubats is relative to anyone he's playing against and ultimately what that does to any guard who turns the corner and just gets the basket like blotted out

by his presence in the pain. And so yeah, he's playing with Chris Dunn. He's playing with Derek Jones Jr. We ran through those guys already as far as like a lot of good perimeter talent there but he's the backstop. Like he's the part that is making all that work and is letting guys like Chris Dunn chase and be as aggressive as they are. So Zoo a completely worthy first team selection for me kind of slid to two,

but it has been awesome all year long. They, they, the Clippers, God bless, and they ran a half-ass Zoo defensive player of the year campaign. Yeah. They all just wore T-shirts to one game. That was basically the extent of their campaigning on his behalf. I mean, it's nice. But it's like, come on.

We could have did more than that. Steve Palmer sends some gift baskets to the, the media, man. No, it was a T-shirt, a black and white, a black t-shirt with white lettering. Maybe they got the Chris Dunn merch like made and printed and then he became ineligible and like, oh, well, that's a Steve Balmer sunk cost. Do you remember when Chris Dunn was drafted in the range of Jamal Murray and Buddy Heald?

It was like the fourth pick. It was like a real coin flip of who was going to go where. And I remember this explicitly because the Pelicans were drafting highly that year. They ultimately took Buddy Healed. But like Chris Dunn, he's gone from one. type of player to the complete opposite of what you expected, where he's just all defensive menace as opposed to, like, junk it up, offensive player with the defense still there. It's just, it's just so wild how players just completely shape-shift over the course of their

NBA careers. All honorable mentions, honorable mentions. I have Kessler down. I have Bam down. I have Derek White down. McDaniels in there, but we talked about him. Tarison. Yeah.

Ineligible, I think. He is ineligible. but just amazing. Just a fucking menace. All right. Let's go to All Rookie. Also, I want to say, I gave, we kind of ran through this

very quickly in the All-NBA discussion. I thought about Jason Tatum for a second as far as one of these spots. I think Tatum has added. Absolutely. Just an absolutely sick defensive season. And yeah, Derek White will get credit. Drew Holiday, I'll get credit.

Even by reputation, I would bet that a lot of people think of Jaylen Brown as a better defender than Jason Tatum. He's not. I would disagree. And I think what Tateham's done defensively this year is really special. The year that they gave, what's his name, Marcus Smart defensive player of the year, which was a travesty.

I hope you weren't one of those idiots, Rob, that voted for Marcus Smart. I did not. Jason Tatum was better than him. The freaking dude that one defensive player the year that year, Tatum was better than him that year. If memory serves, I think I voted Jaron Jackson Jr. that year, and I stand by it. Tatum has become the biggest sob story of someone who's just like just a relative. success I've ever seen in my life.

Who's saying a sob story? We're always talking about like, oh, he doesn't get enough credit for X, Y, and Z. It's just like, I think he's doing fine. I'm not feeling bad for any Duke credit. 600 million in freaking career earnings. Like, he's good, fam. I don't disagree with your point, though.

I think that's a good pick. All rookie. So all bets are off here. No rules. Whatever you want. There isn't some like unwritten thing where they just like have had to have seen the White Lotus finale and like answered her questionnaire. hear about it.

Well, nothing. We can't as a group chat standard if you would like. But yeah, if you want to plug in like a random sixer who's just showed up and played 10 games, you're welcome to do that. There's plenty of them. Let me tell you. All right.

First team. I have Stefan Castle, Risha Shea, Alex Sar, Jalen Wells, Mattis Bezellis. You got Bezella's first team. Well, here's the thing. At this point, I was just like any guy who has popped in a way at any point in the

I gave them priority over guys who have been just like steadily okay. And Bezellis the past month too has been very good, even though early on he was very shaky. He's a rookie. He played like a rookie. The Bulls are Justin's Pacers, by the way, just so everybody's clear. Except not founded in anything resembling the real world.

So we're being clear. We know that you've been watching a lot of TV lately, Rob, but the Bulls are out here killing, all right? If you're plugging in, they are doing wonders in order to shore up that play in spot. I'll tell you what. Who is your Middle America team that you're going to stump for? You know, like, who is the WAS version of this?

You know, it's funny. It used to be the Pacers, but I'm just off them. You've been out flanked too, I got to say. Yeah, I'm, I'm, despite the fact, this is a great Ben Mathuron season, but I've just been on top. Are the nuggets middle America? Is that southwest? That's you, Mountain West. You know.

Yeah, Mountain West. That's two Rockies region. We got to think like great planes. We got to think Rust Bell. Like we got to get in the middle of Detroit. There's no heartland love for me. No. You'll like Detroit during the playoffs.

Yes. I'm sure I will enjoy the chippiness and the over the top nature of their players and coach. But. Milwaukee? Yeah, no. No. Not a heartlander anymore. Sorry, guys.

I know that's the real America, as Sarah Palin would say. But I don't, I don't rock with them no more. Okay. So, Rob, who do you have on your first team? I have the same four. Stefan Castle, Reza Shea, Jay, and Whelis, Alexar. My fifth, I do reward plodding along being pretty decent for the most of the season. And I have Zach Eaddy in my final first team shot.

I made the late switch of the two. Yeah. Yeah. I think there is something about rookie, rookie award specifically. I don't want to get too hung up on do you play for a good team. It's just like not fair to these guys circumstances. But if you do make an impact for a team that actually. actually matters, that's a nice little bonus in terms of your case.

Yeah. My last, I had the same lock-in four as y'all. My last player was Kelle Ware. Very nice. Of the Miami Heat, who I just absolutely love watching this guy play, like, just really toolsy, just bounces around, got some skill to him. Like, I've enjoyed him all season. He's been a bit of a revelation, honestly.

So he's my last person on the first team. Love that. So Edie was my first guy out of. of the first team. He's averaging over the past three games, 17 rebounds a game. It's good. Shows like his counting stats probably affected by not being able to play as often because their center rotation is so robust. Obviously a little bit more limited, but like at this point, second team all rookie for a pretty mediocre class. I think he's deserving a first team,

even though I have him on the second team. I have Eadie, I have Klingin, I have Ware, I have Yvesi to round out the four center rotation I have here. Then my last, spot I have Bob Carrington. Yeah. Bob is a tricky one. He does a lot of stuff. And I think, look, when you get to the end of the all-rooky second team, you're going to pick somebody who's just doing stuff for a team that does not really matter.

And it's not like, I can't tell if anything they're contributing is demonstrably good basketball or helping their team win in any conceivable way. So I have a similar lineup. I have Cole Weir here because I didn't have them on my first team, Eve Misi, who I actually thought about Yves Misi for first team as well. I think he's, you know, as a viable case, it's just like a pogo stick. He's knocking on the door. Sometimes a directionless pogo stick, but a pogo stick nonetheless.

Montez-Buselis, who I maintain, would be first team if he had just kind of gotten on course and maybe gotten different kinds of opportunities right out of the gate. Klingan, I agree with you, deserves second team, look for second team. I think he's been straight up dominant on defense more often than any other rookie in the field, basically. And my guy doing stuff on a team where I'm not sure if it's helpful or not pick is, they a Collier for the jazz. That's where I ended up going with this last one. Yeah. So, Bezellis, Edie, Missy, Collier, Clingin for me. Nice. Bob Carrington, sorry, cutting room floor.

Yeah. I almost had Collier in there and then I saw that he was shooting 25% from three and I audibly gagged. You can't really score. Like, he's not a threat to score, but in a way that almost makes me a little more impressed that he passes as much as he does because it's like these teams aren't guarding him as a scoring threat. I don't know. He, like, again, he's, he is getting a lot of opportunity for a team that does not really want to participate in NBA basketball right now

and has basically cleared the decks of any veterans who might have otherwise been in his way. That said, he just has, like, the most assist by a rookie in five years. So on some level, you have to reward what he's been able to put together. The jazz are just so tough to sift through.

Yeah, really, really brutal. But Collier would have been my first out. I also wrote down Quentin Post, who despite being in only 40 games, is regularly starting for one of the best teams in the NBA right now, 45, 41, 76 shooting splits. Like, he does one thing very well. And actually, it was pretty funny when the Warriors were playing the Hawks just listening to Dominique Wolkins, like, try to wrap his head around a big, taking this many threes and not being physical. He was going through an existential crisis, like mid-game call. He was just like, oh, what is this guy doing? He's just, why isn't even on the court?

but he's on my shirtless and then I guess we have to give credit to Jared McCain for 23 games just awesome 23 games by far the rookie of the year was a killer. Yep, but Dalton connects was out there,

solid, solid rookie, good, like good impact overall for the role he's been put in. The most like out there doing stuff player that we have to at least mention here is Kyle Filipowski who's been putting up numbers again

at just the absolute dreckiest part of a direct season for the jazz. Been putting up numbers since college. Okay, all right. He's like a veteran. I knew it was coming. You raised the guy's name on one podcast

and there's only one direction it can go. Oh, listen, I only have 15 minutes of quality impact on this podcast. So I got to harken back to one of the few good ones. Oh, God. Sir. We'll be back on Thursday with the rest of our ballots. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. We'll talk to you

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